It's long but a good read. I would love to know the response to this kind of thinking.
http://www.bridgewaybiblechurch.com/index.php/component/content/article/80-aion-and-aionios-as-eternal-everlating-forever/236-aion-aionios-aionion-as-eternal-everlasting-forever (http://www.bridgewaybiblechurch.com/index.php/component/content/article/80-aion-and-aionios-as-eternal-everlating-forever/236-aion-aionios-aionion-as-eternal-everlasting-forever)
The texts in black are quotes from the article. The author begins, not with scripture, but rather with broad statements about the presuppositions of "universalists".
We are not universalists. We believe in the salvation of all through Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God.
Then after making some great statements about context and exegesis- the author then refuses to use overall context, and trots out a few examples of the usages of the words aion, aionios and olawm.
I have said for some time that the argument about aion and aionios is one of the weaker arguments for the restoration of all (quoting Peter Acts 3:17-21), the reconciliation of all through the boold of His cross(quoting Paul Acts 1:16-21) and the "gathering together into one of all things in Christ"(quoting Paul in Eph 1:9,10), the propitiation of the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, (specifically NOT OURS ONLY quoting John in 1 Jn 1:1,2). It is the CONTEXT of the entire gospel including these verses and many more that present the core pillar for the reconciliation of all through the blood of His cross- as Paul says, "an administration suitable to(accomplished through) the fulness(pleroma) of times(kairos)"
I think it is the refusal of such teachers as these to look at the OVERALL CONTEXT of Scripture(true exegesis), always diddling around with etymology and morphology of individual words (and some UR counterparts who do the same IMO) that obscures the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ that was promised beforehand by the prophets(Rom 1:2; Acts 3:21; Romans 16:25,26). This mystery of this gospel is the declared clearly in Eph 1:9,10 to be the "gathering together into one of all in Christ Jesus". IMO,This gospel need to be declared lovingly but boldly and without apology, using of Scriptural context, starting with the prophets and on through the declaration of angels at Jesus' birth (God's good will to all); the parables of Christ(till all be leavened); the declaration of Peter at the birth of the Church(the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets since the world began); the teaching of Paul in Romans(the whole creation set free Ro 8); the summing up of everything in Christ(in Eph 1); the reconciliation of all things(Col 1); the Subjection of every adversary being the becoming of God as ALL IN ALL(1 Cor 15); and finally Jesus saying simply and clearly "Behold(see, perceive, understand) I am making all things new!" in Revelation.
It is against this broad perspective of scriptural context that the questions, like, "Then How Can So Many Be In Torment Forever", can be addressed with etymology and translation issues and exegesis relating to the overall context on the fire og God, what it is and what it does and why it does it.
The article states
Universalist's refuse to exegete any Scripture with the recognition that there are people that are, and will be, separated from God forever. Once this presupposition is fixed in a Universalist's mind, they will refuse to approach exegesis of any passage in Scripture with the government of the other Scriptures that describe everlasting destruction away from the presence of the Lord. Because of this, the Universalist creates a parameter that dictates every exegetical consideration as necessarily pointing to a reconciliation of all people everywhere to God. To maintain their confining presupposition, Universalists must speciously assert that eternal, forever, everlasting, and ongoing, must not really mean eternal, forever, everlasting, and ongoing.
The noun aion means age, time, and eternity. The adjective describes the time, the age, and the everlastingness, of something that is ongoing. Both terms describe age that is of any length depending upon what the author wants to convey. The terms can be closed if meant to be, or they can be open in the sense of simply just age, or time, or in the sense of eternal, forever, everlasting, and ongoing. Every usage of aion and aionios in these ways is correct.
Above the author just agreed with the position he earlier refuted unilaterally without evidence- aion, aionios don't always mean forever- they are determined by context. It is not authoritative or revelatory to state "This is the context!" - without providing an exegetical examination of other possibilities (such as the many verses I quoted above)
AION AND AIONIOS ARE CONTEXT SPECIFIC
We recognize that both terms, aion, and aionios are used in contexts in the Koine Greek to describe a broad scope called an age or a time. The terms are also used in the Bible to represent hyperbole as the superlative sense, or they are used in the idiomatic sense to indicate great length that has no defined ending. They are also used to describe eternality that is applied to something in the Old Testament that seems like it ended, but was fulfilled in Christ the New Covenant, and His Kingdom prophetically. Commonly the terms are used in a straight forward sense of eternality. Each usage is context specific.
Again, notice, there are all these broad statements with very little Scriptural context. Most of the UR people I have read at least look at and list the opposing position somewhat accurately and look at the Scriptures critically. ET rs and ED rs don't do this because you can almost never get them to sit long enough to listen to a contrary exegesis to see any other point of view. You really never hear them say, "I see what you are saying , I just disagree". They speak in general terms about the error of "universalism" and refuse to exegite the verses that support UR. I read this article and found it to be limited in perspective, far from comprehensive and typically one sided. , lease forgive me if I am direct.... time is of the essence today
:o)
QuoteUniversalist's refuse to exegete any Scripture with the recognition that there are people that are, and will be, separated from God forever. Once this presupposition is fixed in a Universalist's mind, they will refuse to approach exegesis of any passage in Scripture with the government of the other Scriptures that describe everlasting destruction away from the presence of the Lord.
I accuse ETs of the same thing. Doesn't solve much.
QuoteThe whole linguistic foundation of this universal mistake rests on two Greek words.
He's either lying or unaware what UR teaches.
QuoteWhat a Universalist wants to do is apply a narrowed, static, meaning to both terms that oddly ignores the semantic range of the words, and their full spectrum of meaning.
I fully agree today the full spectrum includes forever. But we only need to look at the full spectrum in the time of Jesus. That's of extreme importance. Gay has turned from happy/cheerful into homosexual. It's both meanings are correct today. But not a when for example king james used the word gay.
All those great lexicons like Thayer, Strong, BDB, etc are written
after church has added a new meaning to the words. Reading the church fathers gives a good impression how they undertood the words. What we have today is soem sort of circular reasoning. First a word has a few meanings. Church forces a doctrine on it's people. A meaning gets common so becomes a alternative meaning in a dictionary. That new meaning is an
assumption of what they thought Jesus was trying to say.
Today that assumption is used as proof in a debate. The only correct way to discuss is using a 30AD dictionary.....
QuoteAION AND AIONIOS ARE CONTEXT SPECIFIC
True but sadly context is often doctrinal specific. So words get (re)defined by doctrine not context.
Then the author starts "proving" the Greek by using doctrinaly determined meanings of Hebrew words.
Quote(1) Both cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were completely destroyed by fire and have never been resurrected. In Jeremiah 49:17-18,
...
This is not describing Sodom, the city, because it has been destroyed forever.
Ezekiel 16:53-55
King James Version (KJV)
53When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
54That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
55When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
==> Sodom will be restored. So it's destruction is not forever.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 08, 2011, 10:27:51 AM
Quote(1) Both cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were completely destroyed by fire and have never been resurrected. In Jeremiah 49:17-18,
...
This is not describing Sodom, the city, because it has been destroyed forever.
LOL, that is some amazing logic there, assuming this person has actually done his homework and can read Eze 16. Although I probably shouldn't assume, those things. ( I haven't read the article so I guess I'm just as bad :winkgrin:)
Hi Red,
I think my quote is a bit misleading. His logic is not that bad. He was tryiing to prove the owlam destuction of Sodom is eternal.
His problem is that he has a wrong understanding of what the Bible teaches and uses that wrong understanding as a foundation for the article.
QuoteDavid means that he, and his kingdom (which is eternal according to promise see 2 Samuel 7:13 below; in Messiah, see Luke 1:32, Hebrews 1:8, ), will always eternally be innocent before God, and not merely for a finite age.
"13 He shall build for me a house to my name, and I will set up his throne even for ever [aion, aiwna]. ... 16 And his house shall be made sure, and his kingdom for ever [aion, aiwnov] before me, and his throne shall be set up for ever [aion, aiwna]. " 2 Samuel 7:13 with 7:16
Hebrew Masoretic Text: 7:13 for ever [owlam], 16 for ever [owlam], for ever [owlam].
That is his proof that aion/owlam can also mean eternal.
1 Corinthians 15:24 "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."
==> Kingdom ends.
Then he gives an example that the Levitical priesthood isn't eternal. That's correct. But later he tries to prove the word can also mean eternal because Jesus is the eternal priests. I think that's false too. A priest is a mediator between man and God. A teacher. A watcher over the religious laws etc etc. But I think that's all obsolete if God becomes all-in-all. ???
Quote41 ... his mercy endures for ever [aion, aiwna]." 1 Chronicles 16:34, 36, 41
Hebrew Masoretic Text: 7:13 for ever [owlam], 16 for ever [owlam], for ever [owlam].
The Lord's mercy is eternal.
That may sound very valid from a UR pov. But is it true? Can God have mercy in situations it's not needed? God has mercy on sinners when they do something wrong. He give a mild punishment instead of a severe beating. But what if He is all-in-all and the former sinners all became saints? How can He have mercey on those who are good?
In my opinion most people's "exegesis" is merely dissecting scriptures from their point of doctrine. URs start with the salvation and restoration of all peoples. ETs start with eternal damnation. I'm not sure either side does so without prejudice.
However, I was most interested in the "closed" vs open" aion, not the obvious misgivings of the writer about those who believe in UR.
With all of that said, if you have to have a doctorate in Koine Greek in order to get proper understanding of the Scriptures something is wrong. If I must trust man's ability to translate properly in order to understand the nature of God, something is wrong. What I understand in my heart, I can not completely work out in the grammar of Koine Greek. Christ has begun to reveal his true nature to my heart, and it doesn't not match what I was taught in church.
The reason I started this post, is because I'm trying to put some writings together. And aion is one of my weak points in understanding. And EW while I agree that aion is one of the weaker UR arguments, in UR literature it must be addressed. :2c:
WW
I think you may be taking the mercy subject too literally...as if God is continually showing new mercies. The saints will be the shining example of God's mercy forver. God will have mercy in his nature forever.
Quote from: shawn on July 08, 2011, 05:11:21 PM
In my opinion most people's "exegesis" is merely dissecting scriptures from their point of doctrine. URs start with the salvation and restoration of all peoples. ETs start with eternal damnation. I'm not sure either side does so without prejudice.
Many here switched sides from ET to UR. So I think those people at some point overcame that prejudge
QuoteHowever, I was most interested in the "closed" vs open" aion, not the obvious misgivings of the writer about those who believe in UR.
Did the witer give an example of open vs closed that's not based on personal opinion misinterpretation?
QuoteWith all of that said, if you have to have a doctorate in Koine Greek in order to get proper understanding of the Scriptures something is wrong.
As with any language it's easier if you are raised with it. Most people at that time couldn't even read or write but they did understand their own language better than most present day scholars. Assuming it was their first language. If not the whole Greek exigis lost a lot of it's value.
QuoteIf I must trust man's ability to translate properly in order to understand the nature of God, something is wrong.
The translation is a start. And when I read the many doctrinal discussion on internet it seems for many the exact words are all there is.
QuoteWhat I understand in my heart, I can not completely work out in the grammar of Koine Greek.
I guess it's even impossible in English at some times.
QuoteThe reason I started this post, is because I'm trying to put some writings together. And aion is one of my weak points in understanding.
Read Hanson....
Quote from: shawn on July 08, 2011, 05:14:52 PM
WW
I think you may be taking the mercy subject too literally...as if God is continually showing new mercies.
I think He does.
Every sin He 'overlooks' is mercy. Israel sinned. Kept sinning and only after years God acted.
QuoteThe saints will be the shining example of God's mercy forver. God will have mercy in his nature forever.
Sure in in His nature. Agreed. The question if teh verse was about His nature or about actually giving that mercy?
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 08, 2011, 06:05:16 PM
Quote from: shawn on July 08, 2011, 05:14:52 PM
WW
I think you may be taking the mercy subject too literally...as if God is continually showing new mercies.
I think He does.
Every sin He 'overlooks' is mercy. Israel sinned. Kept sinning and only after years God acted.
QuoteThe saints will be the shining example of God's mercy forver. God will have mercy in his nature forever.
Sure in in His nature. Agreed. The question if teh verse was about His nature or about actually giving that mercy?
After the restoration of all things, will God be showing new mercies? Or will his reconciled creation be a shining example of his mercy forever?
Answer to both questions: No.
Quote from: shawn on July 08, 2011, 05:11:21 PM
In my opinion most people's "exegesis" is merely dissecting scriptures from their point of doctrine. URs start with the salvation and restoration of all peoples. ETs start with eternal damnation. I'm not sure either side does so without prejudice.
However, I was most interested in the "closed" vs open" aion, not the obvious misgivings of the writer about those who believe in UR.
With all of that said, if you have to have a doctorate in Koine Greek in order to get proper understanding of the Scriptures something is wrong. If I must trust man's ability to translate properly in order to understand the nature of God, something is wrong. What I understand in my heart, I can not completely work out in the grammar of Koine Greek. Christ has begun to reveal his true nature to my heart, and it doesn't not match what I was taught in church.
The reason I started this post, is because I'm trying to put some writings together. And aion is one of my weak points in understanding. And EW while I agree that aion is one of the weaker UR arguments, in UR literature it must be addressed. :2c:
Hi Shawn, to me aion is always used in reference to an age and its ajective is always used to pertain to that age. An age always has an end therfore that which pertains to that age also ends.
Here is a small article I wrote on this topic. Hope it is of some help.
MUCH MORE then aionios life
Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.
They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.
But the Universalist need not change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.
Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.
The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at a few scriptures from the old testament.
Habakkuk 3:6
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.
Now the only way for those who believe in eternal torment can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence and means something else in the second part of the sentence. Thus even though Matt says the Universalist must do this in order for their theology to work, we can see that those who believe in eternal torment must do this in order to make their theology to work. But the Unversalist need not do thing in order for their theology to work, I'll show why in a few minutes, please bare with me.
Psalm 41:13
13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.
If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.
So as the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.
But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.
I already know many will say that's blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.
Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.
Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.
The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.
The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.
Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.
Hebrews 7:16
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?
What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.
Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
1 Peter 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?
These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.
If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.
Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.
Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.
Acts 1;6
Lord ARE YOU AT THIS TIME GOING TO RESTORE the kingdom to Israel?
He said to them, 'IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW THE TIMES OR DATES THE FATHER HAS SET BY HIS OWN AUTHORITY
But you will receive power when the Holy spirit comes to you,and you will be my wittnesses in Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria,
and to the ends of the earth
Acts 3;21 HE MUST REMAIN IN HEAVEN TIL THE TIME GOD COMES TO RESTORE ALL THINGS AS HE PROMISED LONG AGO THROUGH HIS HOLY PROPHETS
FOR MOSES SAID' THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM AMONG YOUR OWN PEOPLE;YOU MUST LISTEN
TO EVERYTHING HE TELLS YOU. ANYONE WHO DOES NOT LISTEN TO HIM WILL BE COMPLETELY CUT OFF FROM AMONG HIS PEOPLE
GEN 6;3 'THEN THE LORD SAID,'MY SPIRIT WILL NOT CONTEND WITH MAN FOREVER,FOR HE IS BUT FLESH,HIS DAYS WILL BE 120 YEARS
iSAAIH 57;16 I WILL NOT ACCUSE FOREVER,NOR WILL I ALWAYS BE ANGRY,FOR THEN THE SPIRIT OF MAN WOULD GROW FAINT BEFORE ME-
THE BREATH OF MAN THAT I HAVE CREATED,I WAS ENRAGED AT HIS SINFUL GREED,I PUNISHED HIM AND HID MY FACE IN ANGER,YET,
HE KEPT ON IN HIS WILLFUL WAYS, I HAVE SEEN HIS WAYS,BUT I WILL HEAL HIM,I WILL GUIDE HIM AND RESTORE COMFORT TO HIM
CREATING PRAISE OF THE LIPS OF THE MOURNERS OF ISRAEL. PEACE,PEACE TO THOSE FAR[PRODIGALS] AND NEAR,SAYS THE LORD,
AND I WILL HEAL THEM.............THERE IS NO PEACE,SAYS MY GOD,FOR THE WICKED
rEV 10;8 AND HE SWORE BY HIM WHO LIVES FOREVER AND EVER,WHO CREATED THE HEAVENS AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM,THE EARTH AND
ALL THAT IS IN IT,AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN IT,TIME SHALL BE NO MORE
DAN'12;7 THE MAN WHO WAS CLOTHED IN LINEN,WHO WAS ABOVE THE WATERS OF THE RIVER,LIFTED HIS RIGHT HAND AND HIS LEFT HAND TOWARD HEAVEN,AND
I HEAR HIM SWEAR BY HIM WHO LIVES FOREVER,SAYING,'IT WILL BE FOR A TIME,TIMES,AND HALF A TIME.WHEN THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE HAS BEEN
FINALLY BROKEN[lUKE 24;49],ALL THESE THINGS WILL BE COMPLETEDL
REV 10;11 THEN i WAS TOLD'YOU MUST PROPHECY AGAIN ABOUT MANY PEOPLES NATIONS LANGUAGES AND KINGS
WHAT IS THIS? GOD WILL NOT STRIVE WITH MAN FOREVER,IN THAT HE IS BUT FLESH,LEST THE SPIRIT FAIL....I TELL YOU,HE WILL CUT THOSE DAYS
SHORT,LESS NO FLESH BE SAVED[THAT IS YOUR HALF A TIME]
HE FINISHES IT.....ZECH 4;8,9 DAN 9;24-28,11;36,12;7, 1 PETER 5;10,11,AND LUKE 14;29