Saved by faith alone

[Zeek]

Joh 1:9  That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.



Remove the darkness to eternal shame, and what is left?? 

[Zeek]

you and i aren't that far apart, in that I don't see all saved from wrath.  But where we differ, is that I do see the spirit saved via destruction (which to me is the wide gait); which I believe is the wrath of God.  It's for the destructiion of the flesh,which I don't see believers as having (now); as we are not in the flesh if the Spirit dwells in us. 

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

is see the destruction for the purpose of spirit saved in Day of Lord.

and u think that this is out of context.




I beleive that in HIM we move, live and have our being.   I believe what keeps us from seeing that, is the flesh, the carnal mind.  The carnal mind must be burned away, and this to me is the significance of every knee bowing, to the Glory of HIM. 

You keep talking abou this thing Paul said about that one mans spirit (which I think you have expounded beyond its meaning)

Zeek, they are going to lose their soul to eternal torment, the eternal wrath of God.

The salvation of the Gospel is the salvation of the SOUL from the wrath of God.

Your soul is YOU. It is YOU whom are or are not saved from the wrath of God.

1 Peter 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

don't you think the "one man" (that i've taken out of context) that was destroyed, lost his soul??  I do.



so if there is only one salvation which you said earlier, and salvation is of the soul only,

then what is this salvation?  how can the spirit be saved, when it is only the soul that is saved??

1Co 5:5  To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

which is for only one man, the only exception out there (according to you)

[Zeek]

Saved by faith alone?? 

or can one's faith save someone else??


1Co 7:14  For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.


what?? 



sanctified

G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
hag-ee-ad'-zo
From G40; to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.



sanctified different than salvation?? 

[martincisneros]

Believers are saved by the faith, persecutions, and overcoming of Jesus Christ; unbelievers are saved by the faith, persecutions, and overcoming of believers: ex: re: Abraham's intercessions for Sodom and Gomorrah.  An important part of the process in the total restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah in Ezekiel 16:53-55.  All of Israel shall be saved, according to Paul in Romans 11 -- cited by Origen as being connected to Paul's agony a chapter or two earlier where he wished himself accursed for their sakes.  This does work as the New Testament example and counterpart to Israel having been delivered through the intercession of Moses. 

Have you never understood intercession, Arcticmonster2003??  The prophets are filled with it, that all God required was a man to stand in the gap and they'd all be delivered.  2Chronicles 7:14 "IF MY PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME....."  doesn't say ANYTHING about the wicked repenting although that would UNQUESTIONABLY be understood with regards to the healing of the land.  John 14:12 says that those that believe will do the works that Jesus did and greater things than these!!  Greater than having taken away the sin of the world??  YUP!  Making sure that they "get it" 'cause to us is entrusted the discipleship of the nations, the ongoing mission of the just suffering for the unjust to bring them to God, the ministry of restoration lest we also be tempted, et. al.

[Zeek]

Believers are saved by the faith, persecutions, and overcoming of Jesus Christ; unbelievers are saved by the faith, persecutions, and overcoming of believers:

THANK YOU. 

That was what i was getting at re: Christ's (head and body) purpose. 

that's what love does. 


1Co 13:7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.


Joh 10:15  As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

and i believe this verse is related too

1Co 15:29  Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Mat 20:23  And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

[arcticmonster2003]

Ok, Zeek, so you agree that the unsaved soul incurs the wrath of God. God help that soul. I would ask that you think long and hard about exactly what your soul and my soul, and everyone's soul is. In the testimonies I have heard about hell, it is souls that are in hell, trapped in a body of sin, and they are in torment.

Martin, I simply disagree with you. To teach that one doesn't have to believe the Gospel themselves to be saved is a heretical teaching in my view, meaning that I believe it is in a way offering salvation to those whom it is not in reality coming to, thus no salvation for those whom are being told they are saved.

Ezekiel 14:14  Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 14:20  Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Ezekiel 18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21  But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Abraham did intercede for people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and I do pray for those whom are unsaved as well, that is, I pray they may be saved, because as of yet they are not saved. Their soul is set to incur the wrath of God, and not a corrective punishment, but the full wrath of God.




While I fully agree that the believer's spouse is often saved, I believe this comes because it is nearly impossible to stay away from God while your spouse is born again, in nearly every case, your spouse will be saved or leave you eventually.

There is no guarantee your spouse will be saved, as Paul clearly says:

1 Corinthians 7:16  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

It is he whom believes whom is saved.

[Zeek]

Thanks for the conversation AM,

may the grace of God continue to awaken us to LOVE. 

LOVE never fails. 

[arcticmonster2003]

Thanks for the conversation AM,

may the grace of God continue to awaken us to LOVE. 

LOVE never fails. 

God bless

[martincisneros]

Ezekiel 14 is dealing with Apostate Israel's unbelief that had to face judgment and it's discussing the judgment of the Babylonian captivity rather than creating the eschatological scenario that you're reading into it.  Kept in the context of the book with the 16th chapter, it favors my interpretation.  And I wasn't saying that people don't have to believe the Gospel.  You were inferring that my belief is the error of the unitarians that all roads lead to heaven, which is never what I've ever ever said from day number 1.  You're trying to impose your view that if the Christ acheives His mission of reclaiming every life from their sins, then His Cross will have failed because it was supposed to be the separation of the pious from the wicked because Christ only came to seek and save the pious, to remove the sin of the pious, and only came to heal the well.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eonian life through Jesus Christ our Lord.  No one here denies this.  Unbelievers while they remain unbelievers will not see life because the wrath of God abides on them for the duration of their unbelief.  And to clarify this further for you, the Bible says that until you yourself believed you were a child of wrath upon whom the wrath of God abode.  Therefore, one may move from the position of having the wrath of God abiding on them into a state of grace as you yourself would freely admit, if you would ever admit that you were ever an unbeliever and that the Scriptures are true that the wrath of God abides on unbelievers.  Now, what form did that wrath take that was upon you until you were forced by it and by the weight of the evidence of the Holy Spirit to your heart to renounce your ungodliness and embrace the Lordship of Jesus Christ??

The wrath of God can never be proven to be eternal damnation.  Otherwise, not a single soul in this generation could have ever embraced the Lordship of Jesus because all were at one time unbelievers and the wrath of God abides on unbelievers and the unthankful according to Romans 1 and countless other passages.  I love the full wrath of God.  I sing of and to the wrath of God to the top of my lungs.  It's the most beautiful thing that people come into contact with while they're unbelievers.  I embrace the full wrath of God and rejoice in it's being poured out in full measure.  I frequently sing the whole book of Revelation and rejoice that God's wrath is manifested upon all unbelievers. 

Ever looked up the primary words translated wrath from St. Paul and St. John?  Same word that we get the English words "orgy" and "orgasm" from.  Even Strong's Concordance will tell you that it indicates an excitement of the mind and a reaching forth for.  It's literally the love of God to the overboil until it's ravishing.  Without it, not a single one of us would have ever embraced His Lordship without the "orge" of God abiding on us until we were subdued and subjected to the Father in the exact same way that Jesus Christ is subject to the Father.  All of this is acheived through Jesus Christ.  This is the Good News of the Gospel.  You really ought to go to Google books and read through Elhanan Winchester's "The Universal Restoration."

[arcticmonster2003]

Ezekiel 14 is dealing with Apostate Israel's unbelief that had to face judgment and it's discussing the judgment of the Babylonian captivity rather than creating the eschatological scenario that you're reading into it.  Kept in the context of the book with the 16th chapter, it favors my interpretation.  And I wasn't saying that people don't have to believe the Gospel.  You were inferring that my belief is the error of the unitarians that all roads lead to heaven, which is never what I've ever ever said from day number 1.  You're trying to impose your view that if the Christ acheives His mission of reclaiming every life from their sins, then His Cross will have failed because it was supposed to be the separation of the pious from the wicked because Christ only came to seek and save the pious, to remove the sin of the pious, and only came to heal the well.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eonian life through Jesus Christ our Lord.  No one here denies this.  Unbelievers while they remain unbelievers will not see life because the wrath of God abides on them for the duration of their unbelief.  And to clarify this further for you, the Bible says that until you yourself believed you were a child of wrath upon whom the wrath of God abode.  Therefore, one may move from the position of having the wrath of God abiding on them into a state of grace as you yourself would freely admit, if you would ever admit that you were ever an unbeliever and that the Scriptures are true that the wrath of God abides on unbelievers.  Now, what form did that wrath take that was upon you until you were forced by it and by the weight of the evidence of the Holy Spirit to your heart to renounce your ungodliness and embrace the Lordship of Jesus Christ??

The wrath of God can never be proven to be eternal damnation.  Otherwise, not a single soul in this generation could have ever embraced the Lordship of Jesus because all were at one time unbelievers and the wrath of God abides on unbelievers and the unthankful according to Romans 1 and countless other passages.  I love the full wrath of God.  I sing of and to the wrath of God to the top of my lungs.  It's the most beautiful thing that people come into contact with while they're unbelievers.  I embrace the full wrath of God and rejoice in it's being poured out in full measure.  I frequently sing the whole book of Revelation and rejoice that God's wrath is manifested upon all unbelievers. 

Ever looked up the primary words translated wrath from St. Paul and St. John?  Same word that we get the English words "orgy" and "orgasm" from.  Even Strong's Concordance will tell you that it indicates an excitement of the mind and a reaching forth for.  It's literally the love of God to the overboil until it's ravishing.  Without it, not a single one of us would have ever embraced His Lordship without the "orge" of God abiding on us until we were subdued and subjected to the Father in the exact same way that Jesus Christ is subject to the Father.  All of this is acheived through Jesus Christ.  This is the Good News of the Gospel.  You really ought to go to Google books and read through Elhanan Winchester's "The Universal Restoration."

OK Martin, I understand, you disagree with my view on the subject.

[bobf]

If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.

The only scripture that mentions "faith" and "alone" together says faith alone is dead.

How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?

The disciples saw Jesus Christ, even the resurrected Christ.

[bobf]

Zeek, they are going to lose their soul to eternal torment, the eternal wrath of God.

The salvation of the Gospel is the salvation of the SOUL from the wrath of God.

Your soul is YOU. It is YOU whom are or are not saved from the wrath of God.

1 Peter 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Entering the wrath of God does not mean a person can not be saved from the wrath of God - seeing as there are plenty of examples of men within the wrath of God who are later saved OUT FROM it.  And the law itself declares as much.

[arcticmonster2003]

If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.

The only scripture that mentions "faith" and "alone" together says faith alone is dead.

How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?

The disciples saw Jesus Christ, even the resurrected Christ.

Can we agree that the verse you are referring to is merely saying that if faith is present that it will be evident to men by certain proofs of it, that is those whom have faith will manifest works of this faith over time?

Can we agree that the believer is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour?

The disciple did see Jesus Christ, but I believe there is still faith required of them to believe he is whom he told them he was, though they certainly had many more proof than we. The people whom killed him also saw him, and his miracles, but did not believe he was whom he said he was.

It will be a completely different thing when one dies and and sees things how they really are.

[arcticmonster2003]

Zeek, they are going to lose their soul to eternal torment, the eternal wrath of God.

The salvation of the Gospel is the salvation of the SOUL from the wrath of God.

Your soul is YOU. It is YOU whom are or are not saved from the wrath of God.

1 Peter 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Entering the wrath of God does not mean a person can not be saved from the wrath of God - seeing as there are plenty of examples of men within the wrath of God who are later saved OUT FROM it.  And the law itself declares as much.

I am speaking about hell and the final judgement when I am talking about being saved from the wrath of God. The wrath poured out without mixture.

Revelation 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

[bobf]

Revelation 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You are assuming your proposition by calling it "final judgment" and quoting translations that make is sound everlasting as if that proves your point.  "The LORD will not cast off forever". 

[Zeek]

Gen 8:2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.

[bobf]

Can we agree that the verse you are referring to is merely saying that if faith is present that it will be evident to men by certain proofs of it, that is those whom have faith will manifest works of this faith over time?

Not exactly.  Faith & works go hand in hand.

Can we agree that the believer is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour?

Yes, which in turn means men are saved by God and not their own wills.  That scripture is about God saving men.  Neither the faith nor the works are of man.  That scripture also joins faith and works:

1. Faith is a gift of God
2. We are His workmanship created unto good works.

The determining factor in salvation of any person is God's choice, not the person's will.  In your theology, it is man's will, not God's will that determines salvation.

It will be a completely different thing when one dies and and sees things how they really are.

What makes you so sure God will show them exactly how things are?  Only those in Christ see Him as He is.

If you take the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis as a foreshadow of how God judges the wicked, you see that Joseph hid his identity from his wicked brothers and later tormented them in a way that hid his true feelings of mercy towards them.

Faith is more than just seeing that Jesus Christ is or that God is.  God SPOKE to Abraham and told him to offer up his only son.   So I take that Abraham KNEW God existed.  But it still took faith.

[arcticmonster2003]

Revelation 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You are assuming your proposition by calling it "final judgment" and quoting translations that make is sound everlasting as if that proves your point.  "The LORD will not cast off forever". 

The scriptures seem to clearly support the idea of the judgement on the last day, or if I may call it the great white throne judgment, or the judgement where we stand before the judgement seat of Christ, or perhaps it is too much for me to call it the final judgement. In any case the scripture I quoted is pertaining the judgement of which I was speaking, no ordinary judgment is the main thing to understand.

It is not a corrective judgment, but a judgment where every man receives the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. It is going to go very badly for those whom don't have Jesus Christ for their saviour at this judgement.

2 Corinthians 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[arcticmonster2003]

Can we agree that the verse you are referring to is merely saying that if faith is present that it will be evident to men by certain proofs of it, that is those whom have faith will manifest works of this faith over time?

Not exactly.  Faith & works go hand in hand.

Can we agree that the believer is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour?

Yes, which in turn means men are saved by God and not their own wills.  That scripture is about God saving men.  Neither the faith nor the works are OF men.

1. Faith is a gift
2. We are His workmanship created unto good works.

The determining factor in salvation of any person is God's choice, not the man's will.  By man's will all were lost.

It will be a completely different thing when one dies and and sees things how they really are.

What makes you so sure God will show them exactly how things are?  Only those in Christ see Him as He is.

If you take the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis as a foreshadow of how God judges the wicked, you see that Joseph hid his identity from his wicked brothers and later tormented them in a way that hid his true feelings of mercy towards them.

Faith is more than just seeing that Jesus Christ is or that God is.  God SPOKE to Abraham and told him to offer up his only son.   So I take that Abraham KNEW God existed.  But it still took faith.

I believe that those whom die without Jesus Christ are taken to hell, to await the judgment on the last day. I personally believe that everyone in hell is a "believer", meaning, they believe now. I do understand why you question my belief in this area, just like the rich man in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, whom saw his condition, being in hell and was in torment, he now understood that which he would not probe while he was yet alive. Yet it was too late.

As far as faith and works, lets not squabble over details, all I am saying is that before works that prove faith may be seen, faith must first be present. And that faith must be present first, even if it is only a fraction of a second. The faith comes first, even if by only a microsecond as each case may be different.

For instance, one believes, then they confess. If you confess before you believe then that particular confession is nothing.
Faith (belief), then the confession (works), thats all I am saying.

[firstborn888]

so you agree that the unsaved soul incurs the wrath of God. God help that soul.

He will.  :thumbsup:

[bobf]

The scriptures seem to clearly support the idea of the judgement on the last day, or if I may call it the great white throne judgment, or the judgement where we stand before the judgement seat of Christ, or perhaps it is too much for me to call it the final judgement. In any case the scripture I quoted is pertaining the judgement of which I was speaking, no ordinary judgment is the main thing to understand.

It is not a corrective judgment, but a judgment where every man receives the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. It is going to go very badly for those whom don't have Jesus Christ for their saviour at this judgement.

2 Corinthians 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Yes, of course I believe there is a great white throne judgment.  Where does it say that the LOF is not a corrective judgment?  The in-this-life-time judgments that are corrective are also destructive & wrathful.  Many of them sound as bad as those in Revelation but are still corrective, like Leviticus 26 and Deteronomy 28-29.  The law itself declares that one can repent AFTER the full curse of the law has come upon a person (which includes being blotted out from under heaven and being blotted out of God's book).  And the LOF is the carrying out of that law.

[bobf]

so you agree that the unsaved soul incurs the wrath of God. God help that soul.

He will.  :thumbsup:

Touche

[bobf]

As far as faith and works, lets not squabble over details, all I am saying is that before works that prove faith may be seen, faith must first be present. And that faith must be present first, even if it is only a fraction of a second. The faith comes first, even if by only a microsecond as each case may be different.

For instance, one believes, then they confess. If you confess before you believe then that particular confession is nothing.
Faith (belief), then the confession (works), thats all I am saying.

The bottom line is you believe man's own will is what determines his faith, and his faith determines his salvation.  So man's will is the reason one person is saved and not another.  Thus, one person is saved because he is better than the other, with repect to his will.  And God CAN NOT take away the sin of unbelief, though Jesus died to TAKE AWAY the sin of the world.

[arcticmonster2003]

The scriptures seem to clearly support the idea of the judgement on the last day, or if I may call it the great white throne judgment, or the judgement where we stand before the judgement seat of Christ, or perhaps it is too much for me to call it the final judgement. In any case the scripture I quoted is pertaining the judgement of which I was speaking, no ordinary judgment is the main thing to understand.

It is not a corrective judgment, but a judgment where every man receives the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. It is going to go very badly for those whom don't have Jesus Christ for their saviour at this judgement.

2 Corinthians 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Yes, of course I believe there is a great white throne judgment.  Where does it say that the LOF is not a corrective judgment?  The in-this-life-time judgments that are corrective are also destructive & wrathful.  Many of them sound as bad as those in Revelation but are still corrective, like Leviticus 26 and Deteronomy 28-29.  The law itself declares that one can repent AFTER the full curse of the law has come upon a person (which includes being blotted out from under heaven and being blotted out of God's book).  And the LOF is the carrying out of that law.

The scriptures specifically say this judgement is to receive that which you have done in the body, it in no way says it is for correction for a future time, and there is no reference to anyone "getting out" of the Lake of Fire in the scriptures. There is no reference to "the people whom went though the Lake of Fire and were let out".

I do believe the translators got it right and universalism is wrong.

[arcticmonster2003]

As far as faith and works, lets not squabble over details, all I am saying is that before works that prove faith may be seen, faith must first be present. And that faith must be present first, even if it is only a fraction of a second. The faith comes first, even if by only a microsecond as each case may be different.

For instance, one believes, then they confess. If you confess before you believe then that particular confession is nothing.
Faith (belief), then the confession (works), thats all I am saying.

The bottom line is you believe man's own will is what determines his faith, and his faith determines his salvation.  So man's will is the reason one person is saved and not another.  Thus, one person is saved because he is better than the other, with repect to his will.  And God CAN NOT take away the sin of unbelief, though Jesus died to TAKE AWAY the sin of the world.

Doesn't matter what I believe, the gospel says that those whom believe are those who shall be saved.

Acts 2:40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

I only wish all would "gladly receive" the gospel and save themselves from this untoward generation. There is no reason to not "gladly receive" it unless one likes his sins and this world more than God. Unfortunetely this is the case too often.