I have been reading quite a few posts on this Tentmaker Forum since signing up and its great to see so many people believing in UR. One of the things I have noticed on here is a quite a bit of confusion when it comes to the meaning of satan in the bible. I wanted to offer up some material to help people come to a better understanding of the concept of satan, the devil and demons in the bible and what they really represent. Many biblical scholars from the 1600-1800s wrote some great material concerning the meanings behind satan. Universalist E.H. Lake who is my personal favorite wrote about this in his book Key to Truth. Another good book is Peter Watkins, The Devil the Great Deceiver, and the Christadelphians (non UR believers) who also came from the Campbell movement have some very organized info on their wrested scriptures site. This is only a small portion of what is out there but I hope it is helpful to anyone looking to understand these topics better.
http://books.google.com/books?id=mdJ2Oa4h-hgC&printsec=frontcover&source=http://books.google.com/books?id=mdJ2Oa4h-hgC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://wrestedscripture.com/b07satan/satan.html
Some great resources, thanks:)
Those sites will keep you chasing your tail. satan.. that old serpent, devil, the great dragon is the adversary and opponent to the Good that work that the Lord is and will work out.
John 8:44 ".......He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Sometimes we have to sit back and ask, "is what I'm studying helping me to love god and/or others more is is it just taking up time making me think I'm doing spiritual things or growing spiritually?"
There is a lot of stuff out there that seems like its helping our spiritual growth but the smartest, most knowledgeble bible scholars in the world aren't the closest to God.
Don't be a "Martha" when you should be a "Mary"
Everything in it's own time.
Very soon, the need to know about Satan will be removed. The need to know more about Jesus Christ never will. There's a priority for you.
1 cor 13:2 (amplified)
2 And if I have prophetic powers (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), and understand all the secret truths and mysteries and possess all knowledge, and if I have [sufficient] faith so that I can remove mountains, but have not love (God's love in me) I am nothing (a useless nobody).
Love is hard to achieve, especially the "love your enemies" kind. Sometimes I feel like a schoolkid sitting in on a Graduate Symposium...
HE IS 'PERFECTING' LOVE...THAT IS THE BUDDING OF THE FIG TREE....REMEMBER....
THE DELIVERANCE OF THE WHOLE CREATION INTO THE GLORIOUS FREEDOM
OF THE SONS OF GOD..IS HIS OBJECTIVE.
FREEDOM TO DWELL IN AND LOVE UNHINDERED... IS FREEDOM FROM STRIFE/EVIL
THERE IS A PEACE THAT CAN ONLY BE ATTAINED BY DWELLING IN LOVE
THERE IS A JOY THAT CAN ONLY BE ATTAINED BY DWELLING IN LOVE.
IT IS CALLED THE PEACE OF GOD THAT EXCELS ALL THOUGHT
Quote from: SheilaFOR HUMANITY...we can stress ONENESSS[we are the elect/you are Not] does not promote oneness..
It is the Bible that stresses the elect. Should we ignore that?
Church of Oprah Winfrey says we are all the same and there are many ways to God.
The Bible says some are chosen and called in Jesus Christ from before the foundation of the world. It says we are set-apart.
Or am I missing something?
WE ARE THE 'SALT'..WE ARE SELECTED 'TO DECLARE THE GLORY OF GOD' IN THIS MATTER..IT DOES
NOT MATTER IF IT FALLS ON DEAF EARS...THE GOD OF THIS AGE HAS BLINDED THE MINDS
OF UNBELIEVERS...AND EVEN IF OUR GOSPEL IS VEILED TO THOSE WHO ARE PERISHING
SEE PAUL'S EXPOSE ON HOW ISREAL WAS BLINDED..BUT WOULD BE RECEIVED IN...AND
APPLY THAT TO ALL MANKIND THAT ARE BLINDED BY THE GOD OF THIS AGE,THAT BLINDS
THE MINDS OF THE UNBELIEVERS[WHILE IN THIS LIFE]
FOR WE DO NOT PREACH OURSELVES,BUT JESUS CHRIST AS LORD,AND OURSELVES
AS YOUR SERVANTS.
JUST BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IT..DOESN'T MAKE IT UNTRUE..AND EVERY KNEE
WILL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS.......
IT IS TO THE UNBELIEVERS THAT HE COMES AS A THEIF UPON[SPIRIT OF UNBELIEF THAT BLINDS
MANKIND] AND TAKES WHAT IS HIS[REMOVE TARES GATHERWHEAT INTO BARN]
THE GOD OF THIS WORLD THAT POSSESSED MEN AND BLINDED THEM THROUGH A SPIRIT OF UNBELIEF
SHALL LOSE THAT WHICH HE THOUGHT HE HAD[THOUGH THEY BE BLINDED FOR A TIME]
EACH IN HIS ORDER....SOME CALLED IN THIS WORLD TO DECLARE THE GLORY..SOME NOT
BUT VEILED FOR A TIME[WHILE DWELLING ON EARTH]
As the bible says "be diligent to present thyself approved to God -- a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;" It is important to correctly understand the bible. The concepts of satan take only a minor amount of study to understand and if left up to ignorance can be twisted into all kinds of incorrect teachings, as they have been for thousands of years. It is not for everyone to have a deep desire to study the bible and gain understanding but some of us do. Most the people who post on this forum often take posts and start nonsensical ramblings or just start quarreling with one another, I think this is unfortunate.
Quote from: Molly on December 20, 2012, 06:26:37 PM
Quote from: SheilaFOR HUMANITY...we can stress ONENESSS[we are the elect/you are Not] does not promote oneness..
It is the Bible that stresses the elect. Should we ignore that?
Church of Oprah Winfrey says we are all the same and there are many ways to God.
The Bible says some are chosen and called in Jesus Christ from before the foundation of the world. It says we are set-apart.
Or am I missing something?
I agree Molly. IMO, the believer is not one with the world. I believe both Jesus and Paul made a clear distinction.
-------------
Re: the next post sheila, I agree with everything I see there. So maybe it's just a matter of semantics, and all are really saying the same thing - just in different ways? Regardless, I believe this
Quote from: sheila on December 20, 2012, 07:13:14 PM
WE ARE THE 'SALT'..WE ARE SELECTED 'TO DECLARE THE GLORY OF GOD' IN THIS MATTER...SOME CALLED IN THIS WORLD TO DECLARE THE GLORY
to be describing the elect - the ekklesia (called out ones) in this age;
and this
Quote from: sheila on December 20, 2012, 07:13:14 PM
SOME NOT .. BUT VEILED FOR A TIME[WHILE DWELLING ON EARTH]
describing those who are not.
However, I don't believe the elect, those saved now, are to go around insulting people and driving them away by bragging about being the elect, while telling the others they're not and that they have no hope. As I understand, it's not for that reason the elect are called. I believe they are called to be shaped into His will, then be used to help bring the rest in - and
then encourage and nurture them. :2c:
"saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast".
Jabcat said, "I agree Molly. IMO, the believer is not one with the world. I believe both Jesus and Paul made a clear distinction."
That's why my name is ded2daworld and not one with the world.
It's the Buddhist that went to a hot dog stand and asked for "one with everything"
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 20, 2012, 05:25:26 PM
Love is hard to achieve, especially the "love your enemies" kind. Sometimes I feel like a schoolkid sitting in on a Graduate Symposium...
I don't believ that kind of love is achieved, I think it has to be flowing up from a well within the heart, living water.
Quote from: omantodd2000 on December 20, 2012, 08:02:39 PM
As the bible says "be diligent to present thyself approved to God -- a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;" It is important to correctly understand the bible. The concepts of satan take only a minor amount of study to understand and if left up to ignorance can be twisted into all kinds of incorrect teachings, as they have been for thousands of years. It is not for everyone to have a deep desire to study the bible and gain understanding but some of us do. Most the people who post on this forum often take posts and start nonsensical ramblings or just start quarreling with one another, I think this is unfortunate.
The forum is for the participants involved to have discussions. Altho you are confident that you have the "right" view, others may disagree. Characterizing the posts of others as nonsensical ramblings and offering judgmental qualifications of the opinions of others is outside of the guidelines of the forum. This is a warning to change your tone to a "conversational" one or you will be temporarily restricted from forum participation. - Eaglesway
:iagree: Jab I think it is more a matter of semantics...i SEE THE ONENESS IN THIS RESPECT...
ALL BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE CORRUPTIBLE ONE..ALL TO BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE INCORRUPTIBLE..
SIN CONDEMNED IN ALL OUR FLESH/GRACE AND FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE GIVEN TO ALL...
Quote from: sheila on December 20, 2012, 07:13:14 PM
SOME NOT .. BUT VEILED FOR A TIME[WHILE DWELLING ON EARTH]
describing those who are not.
However, I don't believe the elect, those saved now, are to go around insulting people and driving them away by bragging about being the elect, while telling the others they're not and that they have no hope. As I understand, it's not for that reason the elect are called. I believe they are called to be shaped into His will, then be used to help bring the rest in - and then encourage and nurture them.
"saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast".
Jabcat regarding the "However" statement and I mean no offence at all, but how could the "elect" as you say even have such thoughts?
And i am not being frivolous, i am asking with honesty, what does, "saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast". mean? For years I thought I knew.
To me it means we do not take ANY credit for our deliverance or boast over ANYONE. I don't think it means we do not acknowledge the difference between the children of God and the sons of disobedience and warn them, plead with them, declare unto them, etc- in the love of God by the Spirit. This "foolishness" of preaching/declaring Paul talked about, however, requires the anointing of the Spirit.
for those who do not believe in the judgment to come perhaps there is no reason to "warn the wicked of his way"- but as I see it, Jesus did.
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell(gehenna), into the unquenchable fire, [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
(Mar 9:42-44)
The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
(Rev 6:14-17)
Paul gets a lot of credit for bringing a "new" revelation until his words express the coming judgment and the tribulation that awaits the rebellious.
"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."
(Rom 2:5-11)
IMO this is the error of those who have tried to remove accountability from the Logos, as if God's sovereignty excuses men from judgment- but Paul and Jesus have mad it clear it does not. A mystery but true.
But.....in the declaration of the gospel we are NOT to judge. We offer the grace of God. Deliverance from sin and death. Citizenship in the kingdom. Joy, Peace, Healing,etc. I don't think the judgment of God is the focus of the message- but it IS a part of the message. Excising this from the word dimishes our effectiveness in overturning ET and ED, IMO.
But we are not the judges, we are the messengers. Judgment is withheld from us until love is perfected in us, in the age to come. :2c:
Quote from: MicahAnd i am not being frivolous, i am asking with honesty, what does, "saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast". mean? For years I thought I knew.
saved by grace--
we won the lottery
through faith--
our faith is the downpayment that is proof that we are saved;
it's the winning lottery ticket
not of ourselves--
there is nothing we or anyone else can do to be saved;
so there is nothing we can boast about.
Micah, I'm not answering for Jabcat but here's how I see it.
We are saved by grace through faith - a faith that we did not have until it was given to us by God.
It is not of ourselves - so we had nothing to do with being saved - Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith
No reason to boast since there is absolutely nothing we did or ever could do to earn the free gift.
We are vessels of clay and God has purposes for each one of us.
Ability is irrelevant, availability is everything.
Depending on the individual (and therefore slightly different)plans God has for us, he takes a stutterer and has him speak before kings, (Moses)
a shepherd boy is made into a great king,(David) a murderer is made into an apostle and the foremost theologian.(Saul to Paul)
How "close" you are to the Lord has little to do with being doctrinally correct. (Peter)
Scripture memorization has nothing to do with being close to God. (Pharisees)
For me personally, I no longer care if God saves someone in this lifetime or after death. I feel it is my "job" to love them, encourage them, and nurture them... And warn them of the consequences in this world and the next of sin.
also,we all know..that we too dwell in a body of death[corruptible] and those that bear the image and are
not born again from above until the death of their flesh...will also bear the image of the incorruptible
one from heaven.
and yes,Micah..we are nothing and only do what we should of done Luke 17;10 so you also,when you
have done everything you are told to do,should say,'we are unworthy servants;we have only done
our duty. this all the more when we know we can't save ourselves,let alone save others..that
it is all the working of God..the gift of faith/resurrection all of it. Really we can just proclaim Him
...for neither is he who waters anything..but God who makes it grow
Okay, thanks. I have thoughts but I hesitate to delve into it again.
I do find it quite suspicious how subjects get debated under some of the original post questions.
one of the ways He perfects those in heaven..is He has them 'watch' men on earth..and the interaction
of the kingdom of darkness with them.....how they get the better of man[all men have sinned]..after
watching this..and observing how even infants are attacked in the womb by the kingdom of darkness..
they can make 'just' judgements..as to the origin of sin in mankind[good/evil exercize] their love for
all mankind is 'perfected'...also tresspasses done to them and through them against others...are
all forgiven/as they also forgive themselves..and works a spiritual healing and restoring..to forgiveness
and love for all[regardless of what a mess any man may be in while down here..even caught in the
very 'act' of sin.
the spirits of just men made perfect[that which was hidden from our eyes in human form revealed[knowledge
of things formerly hidden] Love perfected for Father Jesus all the Heavenly Hosts and man.
the sins of all men are blotted out and not held against them[during this good/evil exercize] and all
men are made spotless before the Lord. It is for this reason Jesus said 'judge not' and judge nothing
before the appointed time. And also that He never judged by mere appearance in the flesh[for there
are things 'unseen' by man down here.
Sheila, I think maybe we are supposed to see these things now, while on earth, before the death of this earthly tent. Judgment begins at the house of God. We are being judged and we are judging through our learning of the discernment between good and evil. Who wants to look at evil? It is horrible to witness. Change the channel, get drunk, pop some pills, look away, go shopping. But, we are to do it now, so that we learn the difference.
What do you think?
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
--2 Cor 4:18
Micah, it's like conversation. You're discussing one thing but that triggers a thought about something else and then someone responds to the new thought that was interjected and then somebody responds to THAT post and then you end up on totally different things being discussed. Like, what did this post have to do with the original topic Satan? :dontknow: :laughing7:
o yes Molly..He wants children of 'wisdom' from above down here..that is why He has and is revealing it.
It alsostrengthens us in love for what we perceive as our eneimies[evil men who persecute/abuse]
It is easier to bear the cross..and say 'Father forgive them they know not what they do"
Comfort ye,comfort ye my people...tell them their hard labour[sin works] has come to an end[=
end of good/evil exercize quickly approaches].
Micah ,my Brother..there is no 'law' against the spirit..it goes where it will
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
--John 3:8
Quote from: sheila on December 23, 2012, 07:17:11 PM
o yes Molly..He wants children of 'wisdom' from above down here..that is why He has and is revealing it.
It alsostrengthens us in love for what we perceive as our eneimies[evil men who persecute/abuse]
It is easier to bear the cross..and say 'Father forgive them they know not what they do"
Comfort ye,comfort ye my people...tell them their hard labour[sin works] has come to an end[=
end of good/evil exercize quickly approaches].
Sheila, I think I am flunking this course.
Evil just enrages me. Not sure what to do about it... :dontknow:
center your wrath on the evil spirit behind it..not the man used as a patsy. Jesus was pretty incensed
at the offspring of vipers on the Pharisee's..He asked them who was going to save them? He was addressing
the actual spirits. Paul shows us that though blinded..that the Pharisees would be coming in[men]
and of course it is the god of this world that blinded them..even though they said they could see,for that
reason He did not cast them out..and let them remain.[because you say you have no sin]
wow. Thanks, Sheila!
He was addressing the spirits...
good thing for all ofus to remeber and ask of Him....cleanse us and remove from us any 'hurtful' thing.
Loving the Father[spirit of love/goodness/rightness/peace] and our brother as ourselves..goes a long way
in restraining any evil from entering our hearts[they can't dwell where burning love is in the heart.]
if they put unloving thought in mind..rebuke the thought..and love in heart will send it on it's way.
that is why He instructs to subject every though to Christt[less it enter our heart]
:HeartThrob: LOVE :HeartThrob: :cloud9:
Awesome.
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
--2 Cor 10
Above everything else guard your heart, because from it flow the springs of life.
--Prov 4:23
And Satan?
He goes about rallying us to rebuild, with the same materials and designs.
Regarding Micah's "saved by grace" question... it has struck me that the great men of faith were called, drafted by God. Neither Moses nor Paul (and many others) were jumping up and down shouting "pick me". They were conscripted for service and equipped, trained for service. All of this is done by God. Indeed who could boast of any self effort? I believe God reveals Himself to people for service, to salt the world. My prayer is that God would transform me so I act only upon His command, to act as an ambassador that speaks only the words of Him I represent. I pray for this, but the outcome is His. He is the author and finisher of my faith. There is nothing for me to boast of. My faith is in Him, and as His child I rest.
Awesome Deena! :cloud9:
Quote from: lomarah on December 27, 2012, 06:10:25 PM
Awesome Deena! :cloud9:
actually I was going to reply to Deena's post, but read your reply first and then decided to reply to both of you...
Lomarah, I've noticed that you reply very briefly, but with encouraging words to many, many of the posts. thank you.
Deena: as I was reading your post, my thoughts went back to Anna of
Luke 2:37-38... departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers day and night. 38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord and spoke of Him to all that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.I stand in prayer with you ... and may that "instant" prepared by the Lord for you come quickly...
lovely thread. And Deena..when I read your post..this come to mind. SoS 2;15 Catch for us the foxes
the little foxes that ruin the vineyards, our vineyards that are in bloom. Jesus called Herod that fox....
and instructed His disciples to beware the leaven of Herod. Herod's temple that HE BUILT FOR GOD
was a pride and arrogance in the works of his hands and boasting in himself and lording over others.
It is BY MY SPIRIT..that GOD DOES THE WORK..and not the work of any man's hands.
My dove,in the clefts of the rock, in the hiding places on the mountainside........Show me your face
Let me hear your voice..for your voice is sweet and your face is lovely.
Thank you seekfirst and Sheila. You have encouraged me today. God bless you.
Quote from: Deena on December 27, 2012, 10:24:08 PM
Thank you seekfirst and Sheila. You have encouraged me today. God bless you.
Me too! Beautiful stuff ladies. :HeartThrob: Actually both of you brought me to tears. Seekfirst being so caring and Sheila quoting SOS again lol. I'm going to have to read that book again tonight I think. :)