Is this even a valid point?
"Psalms are poetry" -> thus implying we cannot form doctrine or understand the character/purpose of God or His judgments from them.
For example:
Psalm 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD;
let all the people of the world revere him.
Psalm 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
Psalm 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways
and loving toward all he has made.
From these straight-forward statements, one could conclude that God loves all.
Or is this invalidated because Psalms is poetry?
QuoteIs this even a valid point?
Nope, you are right, it is not a valid point. One scripture shatters that invalid point.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and i
s profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness
Agree. The Psalms and Songs of Solomon show God's creativity (that's silly, He IS creativity itself :mblush:)...anyway, His ability to speak to us through many methods/channels, including our senses :thumbsup:.
I wish I could remember the article and the doctrine it defended. Basicly about 5 books of the NT need to be ripped out because there where all kind a problems with them that makes them unreliable.
QuoteNope, you are right, it is not a valid point. One scripture shatters that invalid point.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
And the just claim it is no scripture. The same people that have
no problems removing whole books are the same one declaring others a heretic for translating one word differently...
I've bumped into this nonsense about the Psalms before.
Quote from: legoman on June 28, 2009, 05:46:21 AM
Is this even a valid point?
"Psalms are poetry" -> thus implying we cannot form doctrine or understand the character/purpose of God or His judgments from them.
For example:
Psalm 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD;
let all the people of the world revere him.
Psalm 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
Psalm 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways
and loving toward all he has made.
From these straight-forward statements, one could conclude that God loves all.
Or is this invalidated because Psalms is poetry?
Anyone that would assert such a thing [against the Psalms and their divine inspiration] is in damnable heresy in denial of the Scriptures and of the Lord Jesus Christ that bought them, because according to the book of Revelation "the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy." Anyone that would say such a thing against the Psalms is setting themselves up against Lord Jesus and the Apostles who freely quoted the Psalms as Scripture, i.e. book of Hebrews with Psalm 110, Psalm 8, etc., etc., etc. and the rest of the New Testament does the same thing. The "He ascended on high" passage in Ephesians 4 that St. Paul is quoting as Scripture testifying to Jesus is from the Psalms. Off of the top of my head, I believe Psalm 68:18, but don't have a Bible handy. Jesus had this to say on one occasion after His resurrection about the Psalms:
44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." (Luke 24:44)
And St. Paul had this to say about the whole of the canon of Scripture that he was quoting from, including the Psalms with real regularity:
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Timothy 3:16-17)
Therefore, anyone that would deny the Psalms is operating by the system, paradigm, spirit, and curse of AntiChrist because they're in opposition to one of the things that God uses to make the man of God complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work!
Much, if not most/all of the preaching by the Apostles in the book of Acts, including Peter on the day of Pentecost, included quotes from the Psalms. Acts 2:25-28 quotes Psalm 16. Acts 2:34-35 quotes Psalm 110. The Psalms, according to many Bible scholars, are simply further prophetic utterance on the passages of the Mosaic Law with the 5 books of Psalms that make up our current collection of Psalms in all Bibles correspond with the 5 books of Moses. Acts 4:11 is a quotation from Psalm 118:22 and that verse from the Psalms is quoted in the Gospels and in 1Peter. So, we have multiple quotes of that one and inferences/allusions to it throughout the New Testament. Acts 4:25-26 is a quotation of Psalm 2:1-2. Acts 13:22 quotes Psalm 89:20. Acts 13:33 is Psalm 2:7. Acts 13:35 is Psalm 16:10. And one could literally go on and on and on about that.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 28, 2009, 09:50:41 AM
I wish I could remember the article and the doctrine it defended. Basicly about 5 books of the NT need to be ripped out because there where all kind a problems with them that makes them unreliable.
QuoteNope, you are right, it is not a valid point. One scripture shatters that invalid point.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
And the just claim it is no scripture. The same people that have no problems removing whole books are the same one declaring others a heretic for translating one word differently...
Psalm 33:9-11 For He hath said, and it is, He hath commanded, and it standeth. 10 Jehovah made void the counsel of nations, He disallowed the thoughts of the peoples. The counsel of Jehovah to the age standeth, The thoughts of His heart to all generations.
Probably the ones that supported UR. There goes Romans... There goes Ephesians... There goes... etc. xD
the bible says David was a prophet and the Psalms foretold Christ.
I once read an German article where one taught universalism, judgment and restoration solely based on the psalms.
Quote from: sven on June 29, 2009, 09:48:59 PM
the bible says David was a prophet and the Psalms foretold Christ.
I once read an German article where one taught universalism, judgment and restoration solely based on the psalms.
Hey sven, I tried to look up articles related to Psalms and Christian Universalism. I didn't really find one (but I haven't looked too hard lol), except for this where it mentions Psalms once (I think it does anyway). But the article is kinda cool, and it's been translated from German. ^_^
Quote"GOD WILL TRANSFORM: GOD THE TRANSFORMER
Destructive Judgment is a Godless Picture
By Jurgen Moltmann
[This article published in: Publik Forum 8/2007 is translated from the German on the World Wide Web, http://www.publik-forum.de/f4-cms/tpl/pufo/op/pufo-themensubsite/display.asp?cp=/pufo/Subsites/gott/&id=10246&kat=26]
Since the Middle Ages, a conception of death and resurrection became fixed in Christian thinking that is deeply unchristian: the pictorial world of heaven and hell, the conception of a Last Judgment that rewards good works and punishes bad deeds to order the transition to the world to come. According to this notion, God's judgment only knows two sentences: either eternal life or eternal death, either heaven or hell. If one asks what will come of the good visible creation, the earth and God's other earthly creatures, the answer is everything will be burnt to ashes. This world will not be needed any more when the blessed will see directly in heaven without mediation by other creatures.
This idea of judgment is incomprehensible and hostile to creation. Are God the Judge and God the Creator different gods? Does the judging God destroy the faithfulness of the Creator to his creatures? This would be God's self-contradiction or different gods. The Biblical trust in God is destroyed as well as trust in Jesus. The judging Christ with the two-edged sword has nothing to do with the preacher of the Sermon on the Mount Jesus of Nazareth healing the sick and forgiving sins. The idea of destructive punishment is an extremely godless picture.
However there is another conception of world judgment. Injustice is a scandal. Victims do not die away. All the murderers do not find any rest. The hunger for justice remains as a torment in a world of violent crying. The powerless and oppressed hope for a world judge "who creates justice for those suffering injustice." Israel's psalms of lamentation are an eloquent example of true creative justice. God's righteousness will "create" justice for victims, raising them from the dust and healing wounded life.
Later and under foreign influences, a universal criminal judge was made out of this saving Liberator in the biblical scriptures who judges good and evil and does not ask about the victims any more. A deed-oriented moral judgment according to the standard of retributive justice came out of a victim-oriented expectation of saving justice. Correcting this aberration means christianizing the idea of judgment so it is oriented in Israel's original experience of God's creative, saving and healing justice.
The New Testament offers staring-points. The New Testament understands Judgment Day as the "day of the Son of man" on which the crucified and resurrected Christ will be revealed and all the world before him. Both will appear out of their concealment in the light of truth, the Christ now hidden in God and the person hidden from him/herself. The eternal light will be revealed to them. What is now hidden in nature will be transparent because persons are physical and natural beings connected with the nature of the earth. We cannot be separated from the nature of the earth, neither in the resurrection nor in the end-time judgment.
Christ will be revealed as the crucified and resurrected victor over sin, death and hell, not as the avenger or retaliator. Christ will be revealed as the Everlasting One and leader of life. He will judge according to the justice he proclaimed and practiced through his community with sinners and tax collectors. Otherwise no one could recognize him.
God's justice is a creative justice. The victims of sin and violence are supported, healed and brought to life by God's righteousness. The perpetrators of sin and violence will experience a rectifying transformative justice. They will change by being redeemed together with their victims. The crucified Christ who encounters them together with their victims will save them. They will "die off" in their atrocities to be "reborn " to a new life.
Helping and supporting the victims and straightening the perpetrators as the victory of God's creative justice over everything godless, not the great reckoning with rewards and punishments. This victory of divine justice leads to God's great day of reconciliation on this earth, not to the division into blessed and damned.
Seen this way, the Last Judgment is not the end of God's works. It is only the first step of a transformation out of transitoriness into intransitoriness. The new eternal creation will be created on the foundation of justice. Because the judgment serves this new creation of all things, its future-oriented justice is creative and not only a requiting justice referring to the past. It was the mistake of Christian tradition in picture and concept, piety and teaching to only see the judgment over the past of this world and not God's new world through the judgment.
If a social judging occurs in the Last Judgment, it is in truth a cosmic judgment because the coming Christ is also the cosmic Christ. Already in the psalms, JHWH is called "to judge the earth." All shattered relations in creation must be straightened out so the new creation can stand on the solid ground of justice and abide in eternity. All creatures should share in eternal being and in God's eternal vitality. That will be a fundamental change of the cosmos and life. "God will indwell all things and be present in all things." Then the nothingness will be destroyed and death annihilated. The power of evil will be broken and separated from all creatures. The misery of separation from the living God – sin – will end. Hell will be destroyed. Then the reign of glory will begin. "
Quote from: legoman on June 28, 2009, 05:46:21 AM
Is this even a valid point?
"Psalms are poetry" -> thus implying we cannot form doctrine or understand the character/purpose of God or His judgments from them.
For example:
Psalm 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD;
let all the people of the world revere him.
Psalm 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
Psalm 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways
and loving toward all he has made.
From these straight-forward statements, one could conclude that God loves all.
Or is this invalidated because Psalms is poetry?
first off that only applies to the elect . :laughhand:
second:
Luk 24:44 Then He said to them, "These [are] the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and [the] Prophets and [the] Psalms concerning Me."
heck,
jesus was even teaching psalms 22 from the cross. and the UR message in psalms 22 is plain as day...to me anyway :URWelcome: :wink3: :Yesss: :boogie: :boydance:
wooot wooooot
chuckt
Awesome, I will have to remember Luke 24:44!