Psalm 21:8-10?

[MacPherson]

I was reading the "what is your mission/motto" thread, and Martin stated his "mission statement from here on out is Psalm 21"
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.0

But, what I'm having trouble getting is how the following seems to argue against UR. There's a lot of passages in Psalm's like this, that can make one scratch his head in light of UR.

8Your hand will find out all your enemies;
         Your right hand will find out those who hate you.
9You will make them as a fiery oven in the time of your anger;
         The LORD will swallow them up in His wrath,
         And fire will devour them.
10Their offspring You will destroy from the earth,
         And their descendants from among the sons of men. :dontknow:

[martincisneros]

Well, do you view Joshua 1:1-9 as problematic regarding UR?  It's the same kind of passage that pertains to the things that matter regarding this life prior to the New Earth.  And not all enemies, looking back at the passage you quoted from Psalm 21, would be physical and not all of them would be viewed as actual entities of any species/order/rank/whatever.  For instance, a successful cure to cancer could be said to wipe out the cancer and it's future generations "forever."  Would be the best news that millions of people, and even millions of yet unborn could have to face.  Wouldn't necessitate their being cast into oblivion.  Not all references to enemy or enemies in Scripture are human and not all would be conscious sentient life of any species.  Just like not all references to evil in Scripture, particularly the KJV, are references to the personifications of evil that many Christians expect to always be the case whenever evil comes up.  KJV refers to chastening from the Lord on His people as evils that He had to bring upon them.  As far as people that would be regarded as enemies, if they were all born again and began keeping the commandment of love, then your enemies have essentially been destroyed by Christ's subduing work with all of Creation talked about in 1Corinthians 15.  Doesn't necessitate that God blew their spirits into oblivion or opened the earth to swallow them or cast them into an eternal dungeon.

[jabcat]

What I see there is the earthly/temporal aspect of God's judgments, especially in the OT wrt to "His people"...i.e., "thou shalt surely die", they didn't inherit the promised land (in that lifetime), etc.

[martincisneros]

What I see there is the earthly/temporal aspect of God's judgments, especially in the OT wrt to "His people"...i.e., "thou shalt surely die", they didn't inherit the promised land (in that lifetime), etc.

Sorta depends on what you mean by the promised land, whether you mean the New Covenant promises or what.  Because everything He ever promised Israel was fulfilled a really long, long time ago and He technically owes them absolutely nothing, except as it relates to the Universal Restoration that He's promised through all of the prophets since the world began:

43So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it.
44And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand.
45Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass. (Joshua 21:43-45 NASB)

The Old Covenant wasn't set aside because no one could keep it, as the Dispensational Premillenialists will assert.  It was set aside because there was nothing left to be fulfilled in it.

[jabcat]

Moses I guess specifically wrt the promised land....I'd have to research it, but I believe most if not all of the "threatenings" in the OT were earthly/temporal/for that lifetime, punishment for an age or 2...the grave/other losses rather than ET...for instance, those held captive that were disobedient in the days of Noah were set free by Jesus...

[martincisneros]

So called afterlife punishments, or not in this age or in the coming one, the way that it would work out in the Old Testament was with how your descendants would fare.  I.e. the sin being visited to the third and fourth generation in order to eradicate it.  There are references to that not being the case any more or after a certain point (example: Jeremiah 31:29-30) and I think it's a hasty inference that it's automatically talking about the New Covenant at the particular stage that it's been in thus far.  That's either a New Earth reference, or an interesting passage for the no afterlife punishment whatsoever crowd, assuming what I said in the first sentence or two of this post.

[MacPherson]

Well, do you view Joshua 1:1-9 as problematic regarding UR?  It's the same kind of passage that pertains to the things that matter regarding this life prior to the New Earth.  And not all enemies, looking back at the passage you quoted from Psalm 21, would be physical and not all of them would be viewed as actual entities of any species/order/rank/whatever.  For instance, a successful cure to cancer could be said to wipe out the cancer and it's future generations "forever."  Would be the best news that millions of people, and even millions of yet unborn could have to face.  Wouldn't necessitate their being cast into oblivion.  Not all references to enemy or enemies in Scripture are human and not all would be conscious sentient life of any species.  Just like not all references to evil in Scripture, particularly the KJV, are references to the personifications of evil that many Christians expect to always be the case whenever evil comes up.  KJV refers to chastening from the Lord on His people as evils that He had to bring upon them.  As far as people that would be regarded as enemies, if they were all born again and began keeping the commandment of love, then your enemies have essentially been destroyed by Christ's subduing work with all of Creation talked about in 1Corinthians 15.  Doesn't necessitate that God blew their spirits into oblivion or opened the earth to swallow them or cast them into an eternal dungeon.

Very Good! I knew I wasn't seeing this through Spiritual eyes yet.