pastor and friends dad debated me today...lol

[NinjaWizards777]

my drummer of my old band was in town and invited me to his church this morning. and after the service his dad(who used to be a pastor) came up to me and was like "I heard a rumor that you dont believe anyone goes to Hell". and I corrected him by saying that I believe the lake of fire is only for an age, and then I brought up aionios. and he had a greek dictionary and saw that only one of the definitions meant eternal, and didnt seem to know what to say. so he called over their pastor and hes all like "if hell isnt eternal neither is heaven" and then I tried to say how I think God works in ages and the dad kept saying "where did you come up with this stuff" and im like "actually alot of early church fathers like origen believe this" and then yeah. the pastor asked me if I was an anialationist or an ultimate reconciliationist (at least he knew the difference) and said how hed love to believe that but it goes against other parts of scripture bla bla bla

and they had no real answer to verses like 1 tim 4:10 that says ESPECIALLY believers not exclusively. and there like "everyone has a choice now" and im like "some people are blinded from that choice, Jesus says no one knows the father except those who he reveals" and idk we talked about alot of things, including predestination and they brought up good points but it was just so obvious the logic of it just failed. I was really caught off guard and the dads anger made me really not want to talk about it(I dont understand why people get so angry at the thought that maybe God loves all people enough to save them?). another thing I said was "what would give God the most glory when every knee bows? a forced confession or an honest worship?"

and their all like "they had their chance, God will throw them into hell" and Im like "thats not unconditional love".and both said I was just twisting passages to make myself "feel good" and I said no that this is just something ive been thinking about for along time. The pastor at least commended me for backing things up with scripture.

but yeah I dont do so well in those face to face debates, especially ones I wasnt expecting. at least I had a youngs literal translation on my ipod hahaha

[Tim B]

That whole "people had their chance" is garbage. There's not a single verse in the entire Bible that says ANYTHING about "one chance".

It's the whole aionios being translated as eternal that really screws things up. Not to mention that a lot of translations have Hell instead of Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus.

Plus, logically speaking, if God is love then UR is the ONLY doctrine that can actually qualify to go under such a name as unconditional love. Not even annihilation can fall under unconditional love.

[martincisneros]

There's not a passage in the whole Bible that talks of heaven as either eternal or as ages or an age or an age of ages, or ages of ages.  That's a dogma, not a Bible fact.

[Tim B]

There's not a passage in the whole Bible that talks of heaven as either eternal or as ages or an age or an age of ages, or ages of ages.  That's a dogma, not a Bible fact.

So true! That dogma has probably be drawn out of words "eternal life," which don't really mean eternal anyway. lol

[NinjaWizards777]

To be perfectly honest, im still not really good at arguing against the  "if punishment/hell isnt eternal, than neither is life/heaven/whatever" argument. Like its silly obviously but I never know quite how to word it, possibly because I suck at wording anything lol.

[fullarmor2]

To be perfectly honest, im still not really good at arguing against the  "if punishment/hell isnt eternal, than neither is life/heaven/whatever" argument. Like its silly obviously but I never know quite how to word it, possibly because I suck at wording anything lol.

       You keep on using scripture,     because you are sowing the seeds of God's truth,   and God by his Spirit will cause the Word to accomplish its purpose.    :thumbsup:

[Andy]

To be perfectly honest, im still not really good at arguing against the  "if punishment/hell isnt eternal, than neither is life/heaven/whatever" argument. Like its silly obviously but I never know quite how to word it, possibly because I suck at wording anything lol.

I'm not good at arguing either,, I have to let the Father deal with the growing part,, all I can do is plant seed, anything else seems to be fruitless and turns into an argument..

Praise God and Love all.. Love everyone, that maybe the way to show the Love of God.

Just some thoughts,, Peace and thankyou for your honesty and also being sincere is a good thing to,  It's hard to argue against sincerity and truth.  Lot's of prayer would be a good thing too. I think that this is a spiritual battle and we do not wrestle against flesh and blood,, and you know the rest of the chapter..

Love is the most powerful force,, because God is Love!   :icon_flower:

[Beloved Servant]

Our Lord Jesus Christ taught of one subject more than anything else: the Kingdom.
Be like Him.

[Seth]

To be perfectly honest, im still not really good at arguing against the  "if punishment/hell isnt eternal, than neither is life/heaven/whatever" argument. Like its silly obviously but I never know quite how to word it, possibly because I suck at wording anything lol.

Ninja, what I have come to understand is the difference between aionios life (life of the age which is the Spirit within believers) and immortality.

Here is how I would word that: heaven will always be because the Bible says God is immortal and heaven is his dwelling.

[WhiteWings]

Ninja,

Was that the pastor you spoke with in the (fast food) restaurant?
From what I read you did a fine job fighting 2 professionals.
(professionals build the Tittanic. The Ark was build by an amateur)

[NinjaWizards777]

Ninja,

Was that the pastor you spoke with in the (fast food) restaurant?
From what I read you did a fine job fighting 2 professionals.
(professionals build the Tittanic. The Ark was build by an amateur)

no, the guy I talked with at the resturant was the worship leader at the church that I (up until a little while ago) regularly attended. The guys I talked to yesterday were at a different, and much smaller baptist church

but thanks, I dont feel like I did a fine job but it happened for a reason that only God knows. I think God just took me too seriously during the sermon when I thought "hes talking about eternal hell...yet  is saying death has no victory...ha...if only he knew the contradiction!" lol

[preistsplace]

To be perfectly honest, im still not really good at arguing against the  "if punishment/hell isnt eternal, than neither is life/heaven/whatever" argument. Like its silly obviously but I never know quite how to word it, possibly because I suck at wording anything lol.

a tall man and a tall tree are they the same heigth ?
A big house and a big dog? A small bear and a small needle? proof that descriptive words arebrought into proportion by that which they describe.

[preistsplace]

(professionals build the Tittanic. The Ark was build by an amateur)

:laughing7: :2thumbs:

[anti_nietzsche]

Perhaps "age-during" life refers to persistent life, a life that will not be destroyed by anything, a resistant life. Yet we are not greater than Jesus, so we must face death too. Jesus defines "age during" life as a life that knows God. I think anytime we have a moment of knowing God like He really is, we are so totally full of life again. In Jesus, God turned Himself into the tree of life. Our life in Heaven will be eternal because God is eternal, and because He conferes His life to all of us when we know Him.

We must by all means safeguard our knowledge of God, for in this knowledge we have life. That's why God tells us to be faithful .. because by being faithful to God, you stay in His ways and will always "meet" Him again to be reinfused with "age during" life daily.

[Doc]

Ninja,

Was that the pastor you spoke with in the (fast food) restaurant?
From what I read you did a fine job fighting 2 professionals.
(professionals build the Tittanic. The Ark was build by an amateur)

no, the guy I talked with at the resturant was the worship leader at the church that I (up until a little while ago) regularly attended. The guys I talked to yesterday were at a different, and much smaller baptist church

but thanks, I dont feel like I did a fine job but it happened for a reason that only God knows. I think God just took me too seriously during the sermon when I thought "hes talking about eternal hell...yet  is saying death has no victory...ha...if only he knew the contradiction!" lol

Ah yes, baptist churches...the guardians of tradition, lol. (I know, because I attend one).

[peacemaker]

For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If, I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. (Galatians 1:10)

"Whatever you do, do whole heartily as for the Lord, rather than for man."

peacemaker

[Gilbert]

my drummer of my old band was in town and invited me to his church this morning. and after the service his dad(who used to be a pastor) came up to me and was like "I heard a rumor that you dont believe anyone goes to Hell".

The church has undergone a very painful devolution process since apostolic times. Thankfully, we have witnessed an evolutionary renewal during the past 1-200 years.
There was a groaning which brought forth Martin Luther and another groan which ushered in Calvin and so many more groans and upheavals which welcomed the arrival of the Baptists and Pentecostals and whomever else. So, I find it difficult to frown on these sincere people who still insist on remaining seated under the teachings of the ancestors.
There was a time when I was very intollerant of people who failed to follow after what I myself had discovered; believing them all to be second class (if not agents of evil). But I soon learned that this kind of shallow and prejudicial thinking creates its own evils.
The question I always return to is this: "Does the secret of a happy Christian life depend on knowing the doctrines of Universal Salvation?"
Hardly likely.
Anyways, I am sure there are other teachings out there that we ourselves remain completely ignorant of at this point. Maybe God has spoken to a pastor in the deepest part of Africa and revealed a wonderous truth which we have not yet obtained for ourselves. Does this make our own Christian experience invalid?
Hardly likely.
Yes, there are certain articles of faith that are absolutely mandatory to subscribe to. But I hardly think that the doctrines behind Universal Salvation is one of them. Therefore, it should not be an impediment to our christian socializing nor invite us to disown a brother or a sister with a differing opinion than our own.

Sometimes I think we use doctrines as masks to hide behind ... to conceal our emptiness ... to camoflage our fraud.

Somethings are better not to be discussed in certain circles because they only prove to alienate and embarrass and intimidate.
Do you know what the meaning of "secret" really means with this verse? "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
Well, it has a connotation of how a husband and wife conduct their intimate conversations ... in secret.
There are some things that need not be spoken from the rooftops but are better quietly said "in secret". Sometimes I think we should be more aware of that before we decide barge in on someone's belief system with our own ideas of where they are so wrongly informed.
More than once it has been proven to me that God Himself is much more eager to teach His children than I might have suspected. Time and time again I have seen the Lord direct someone to me with a question of this or that; these people were prepared not only with the question but for the answer too.

Anyways, I am not at all saying this to you personally. Not at all. I am just stating general observations.

[NinjaWizards777]

good observations, gilbert. I agree

[Gilbert]

good observations, gilbert. I agree

Thank you for your kind response.
Funny thing, I became so familar with Posts here declaring how someone did NOT agree with something that my finding your agreeing compliment surprised me.  :grin:

Several years ago I stumbled into a wonderful teaching which captivated me immensely. But through the many months of my going to an' fro to find out more about it, I couldn't help but suspect that this new teaching could turn out to be a complete falsehood. Things became even more suspicious to me when I couldn't find another single Christian in my metro area who had even heard of what I had come upon and was studying.
Nevertheless, I continued investigating the teaching and was being incredibly enriched by it.
Years later, I discovered that the teaching which I had so eagerly subscribed to was not as orphaned nor quaint as I had thought.
I was introduced to literature authored by a pastor from out of the US.
Unknown to me at the time, the very same teachings were being introduced in Europe at the very same time that they were being introduced in the US.
The pastor in the US was teaching from out of his understanding of the New Testament while the pastor in Europe was teaching the very same thing but from out of his knowledge of the Old Testament.
Neither of these two pastors knew one another nor anyone from out of their respective congregations.
It was a simultaneous move of the Spirit to usher in new thoughts to God's people.
Here we are, more than 30 years later.
Both those pastors have long since passed away.
But their original teachings still echo throughout the world in these days through their many books and literature on the subject.
Sometimes I think that some Christians don't quite understand that we are ALL travelling the same pathway leading to the mountaintop. This is true whether the people on the pathway are Baptists or Pentecostals or whomever. Regardless, we are all climbing the same pathway.
Some prefer to pretend that only those who believe what they believe can share the same pathway. They somehow have the idea that those who do not share similar beliefs as their own are supposedly climbing a different road albeit a mere stone throw away from their own path.
This is not at all true.
The fact is that everyone of us are travelling the same pathway. No one is beside us on another path; they are all behind us and ahead of us on the same path.
But there are those accompanying us who may be climbing to the mountaintop weak and hesitantly; some with frail faith; others with injuries and wounds not yet healed. But the point is that we are all travelling the same pathway; it is just that some might be better equipped for the journey than others for any variety of reasons.
So, there is no competition to be heard nor seen on this pathway. We are all cooperating spirits and wish everyone to successfully manage the climb. No one is ever heard asking anyone, "Oh, what are you doing here on my path when you and I believe so differently?". No, we eagerly welcome them and wait for them to seek our help if they might encounter difficulties on their way.

[preistsplace]

and we  had better make room cause eventually we will all be walking shoulder to shoulder, covered by Christs sacrifice and God's uneneding love

[NinjaWizards777]

The fact is that everyone of us are travelling the same pathway. No one is beside us on another path; they are all behind us and ahead of us on the same path.

Yeah...I wish more Christians saw it this way, or really more people period lol. Im sure there are things God has shown other Christians(even ET ones) that he has not shown me and may not eve n til all is said and done, and vice versa. No one is just a "higher" Christian or more enlightened...we are all simply learning about that which is not yet seen, and should kindly try to edify one another in that. and it is hard to keep that in mind, it really is.

the problem is, and I feel this is especially strong from many ET believers, is that anytime  you disagree with a part of their theology they cast you down and dont possibly consider that it may be of God. Not that we should just accept anything we hear, we shouldnt...but it does amaze me how close minded and angry people can get. though I have to remeber that I was once like that, and its not because I loved God or people any less, but simply because I didnt see certain things that I do now

[Gilbert]

The fact is that everyone of us are travelling the same pathway. No one is beside us on another path; they are all behind us and ahead of us on the same path.

the problem is, and I feel this is especially strong from many ET believers, is that anytime  you disagree with a part of their theology they cast you down and dont possibly consider that it may be of God. Not that we should just accept anything we hear, we shouldnt...but it does amaze me how close minded and angry people can get.

At first glance, it does appear that everyone is able to obtain for themselves an insurance policy fitting to their delusions. Having said that, I should confess that I found myself half-smiling when reading your reply.

Inspite of the Bible saying, "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance", there are many Christians who have only heard the 'Gospel of Fear and Torment'. They insist on clinging to ideas about God which are nearer to that of a schizophrenic pagan god than that of the true Christian God of whom the apostle John declared: "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all".

Not surprisingly, many who visit this TentMaker Forum find themselves asking what might possibly meet the needs of those suffering from the hysterics of a supposed divine vengenance and torment; what words might be found to deliver their sincere brothers and sisters from oppressive fears and anxiety about receiving punishment and revenge at the hand of their God?

Sadly, I don't believe there are any.
Why?
Simply put:
Because the Bible states that one must first believe that God exists before he can hope to receive anything from Him; "for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him", Hebrews 11:6.
Many will protest saying, "I believe God exists!".
To which I would reply, "The God whom you imagine in your fearful hearts, the God whom you confess as desiring to punish and heap revenge upon every living thing, does not exist.

So? What happened next?
Becoming desperate to extricate themselves from under the hypnotic stare of guilt and punishment, these ETr's hurried to invent a 'celestial fire insurance' for themselves. They boast of UR doctrines and claim that these exempt them from the prospect of being incinerated in some imagined eternal hell-fire. It's all so neatly wrapped and decorated with the admonition, "Don't worry! Be happy!".

Still others soon added a 'Flood Insurance Policy' to their Christian journey. This allowed them to declare that Satan had already been made powerless and a defeated enemy. Evidently, all one has to do when holding a 'Flood Insurance Policy' is to tread water and wait patiently for the end to come.

They failed to comprehend that the flood of Noah's days is an image of the things which are happening in thee latter days. At the Flood, the windows of the heavens were opened and also the fountains of the great deep as the waters covered the whole earth. Similarly, the Bible states that in the latter days an invasion of powers from heaven will throw themselves on the earth and the hosts of the powers called up from the Bottomless Pit will cover the earth.

The biblical flood is a natural picture of a spiritual reality. As Noah was saved in the natural world from the flood that covered the earth, so the Lord is preparing a spiritual people to Himself in these days which will be saved from the fiery ordeal that is about to engulf the entire earth. Jesus said: "Upon the earth distress of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world; for the powers of heaven will be shaken", (Luke 21:25-26).

Whether one is an ET'r or a UR'r, both would agree that there is no mention of fire or flood insurance in the the Bible.

While I don't subscribe to the beliefs of UR, neither do I believe in the false imaginings of the so-called ETr's either; inclusive of any teaching which contradicts the faithful confession that God is only and completely good. The false teachings about eternal torment and punishment are just as erroneous as the fraudulent manipulations which invented the teachings of Universal Reconciliation.

The superficiality of our culture has permeated into the mind-set of these UR doctrines. In a culture that advocates "safe sex," we have similarly developed a "safe" form of doctrines wherein no one is held responsible for his actions. There is no doubt that God hates this farcical masquerade of doctrinal role-playing, for it's totally alien to the dynamic reality of the Lord Jesus manifesting His life in receptive Christian people.

There is indeed a 'third way' [so to speak] which doesn't include these outrageous doctrinal errors and yet remains consistent to the irrefutable truth that God is ONLY and COMPLETELY good.

Clearly, the Bible implores us to, "take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand".
It speaks of those those who are sealed and filled with the Spirit of God and how these people are equipped for every good work and aren enabled to overcome.
It mentions a spiritual struggle and describes how the people of God must have an armor which enables them to withstand in the evil day (Eph 6:13). Because then it will be power against power, Spirit against spirit, and miracle against miracle.

[Cardinal]

At the Flood, the windows of the heavens were opened and also the fountains of the great deep as the waters covered the whole earth. Similarly, the Bible states that in the latter days an invasion of powers from heaven will throw themselves on the earth and the hosts of the powers called up from the Bottomless Pit will cover the earth.

:cloud9: I never noticed the correlation between these two like that before. Thanks! Blessings.....

[Beloved Servant]

:cloud9: I never noticed the correlation between these two like that before. Thanks! Blessings.....

Nor I — that's awesome!

[Gilbert]

At the Flood, the windows of the heavens were opened and also the fountains of the great deep as the waters covered the whole earth. Similarly, the Bible states that in the latter days an invasion of powers from heaven will throw themselves on the earth and the hosts of the powers called up from the Bottomless Pit will cover the earth.

:cloud9: I never noticed the correlation between these two like that before. Thanks! Blessings.....

Hi! Cardinal
and you too Beloved Servant
The scriptures are filled with parables which use events or illustrations from out of daily life to give insight into the unseen heavenly things. Jesus Himself was very fond of speaking in parables and said, "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand".
For instance, everyone is familar with the story of Adam and Even and the Garden, right? Do you think for a moment that the entire visible and visible worlds entered such a calamity simply because of someone choosing to eat an apple?
And, do you think for a moment that our heavenly Father actually demanded that Abraham murder his son Issac? Don't you think this idea is rather awkward to believe when we surely know that God's own laws written to the conscience of Abraham prohibited murder? Doesn't the scripture clearly say: "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"?
It is precisely this very kind of shallow unlearned thinking that risks heaping ridicule on us.
See? That's the problem with alot of sincere Christians; they have become expert literalists and are able to discern the most minute meaning of a biblical word and yet fail miserably when it comes to discerning the spiritual things.
For instance, the entire story of the Garden of Eden is a parable. The Old Testament writers described invisible things and events using the same skills that Jesus would later use: parables. They oftentimes used visible pitures to reveal invisible realities. Just as the Old Testament is a shadow of the New, so too is the visible creation a shadow of the invisible creation. For instance, the visible world has the law of gravity and the laws of physics and whatever; well, these are all visible pictures of invisible spiritual realitie; for instance, the reality of the law of sin and death.