This seem to fly in the face of UR's theory of "all" will be saved.
I found this in Revelation 21:27 saying that "only those who are written in the lamb's book of life" will be allow to be in God's new jerusalem.
and also this:
Hebrews 10:31 saying it terrible to fall into the hands of the living God
Doesn't sound really good to fall into the anger God.
Paul and others also keep calling the reader and the church "fellow christian" saying the only way to be saved is to be christian, that's the only way, there is no "all" will be saved.
I noticed every god's people are about the saved ones, not the unsaved.
I think 1 Corinthians goes beyond the Book of Revelation and that second death is last enemy
Rev. 21:24
And the nations shall walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory to it.
Rev. 22:1-5
And he shewed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, going out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side, [the] tree of life, producing twelve fruits, in each month yielding its fruit; and the leaves of the tree for healing of the nations. And no curse shall be any more; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him, and they shall see his face; and his name is on their foreheads. And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign to the ages of ages.
1 Co 15:22-28
For as in the Adam all die, thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own rank: the first-fruits, Christ; then those that are the Christ's at his coming. Then the end, when he gives up the kingdom to him who is God and Father; when he shall have annulled all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that is annulled is death. For he has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he says that all things are put in subjection, it is evident that it is except him who put all things in subjection to him. But when all things shall have been brought into subjection to him, then the Son also himself shall be placed in subjection to him who put all things in subjection to him, that God may be all in all.
quotation from Darby translation
Quote from: IceDash on February 08, 2009, 09:03:01 PM
I found this in Revelation 21:27 saying that "only those who are written in the lamb's book of life" will be allow to be in God's new jerusalem.
The question is: Can you do something so that you get written in that book ones you are removed?
In other words: Is that statement permanent?
Quote from: IceDash on February 08, 2009, 09:03:01 PM
This seem to fly in the face of UR's theory of "all" will be saved.
I found this in Revelation 21:27 saying that "only those who are written in the lamb's book of life" will be allow to be in God's new jerusalem.
There are 10 people.
I tell them "whoever's name is not written in my journal, is not my friend."
They all look at each other and wonder "Is my name not written in the journal?", "Whose name isn't written in the journal?!" :sigh:
I show them the book and all 10 of their names are written in the book.
They are all my friends.
They assumed the worst.
:Sparkletooth:
That's just the way I see it.
then why didn't paul or Jesus said it better like: "I will saved you all, no one will be punished"
Why bible full of riddles and confusing
That would not help because some will minimize 'all'
Like: all believers, all who repented, a few from all nations, etc
(happens right now)
Quote from: IceDash on February 08, 2009, 10:03:59 PM
then why didn't paul or Jesus said it better like: "I will saved you all, no one will be punished"
Why bible full of riddles and confusing
Yes the bible is difficult to understand sometimes.
But what you said above is stated clearly:
1 Tim 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Verse 6 is key - it will be testified and happen in
due time.
I, too, wish a lot of things had been said better in the Bible, aside from just the issue of salvation. However, it seems to me that people of the time would have understood the message better, as they were the ones surrounded by the paganism and knew what sorts of beliefs were attributed to them. In other words, they could better see how Christ's message differed from the false religions around them, and it probably didn't have to be spelled out to them.
However, Jesus very seldom gives a straight answer. He speaks in parables a lot, saying that those whose eyes have been opened will understand, but others wouldn't understand the point to his parables. The very fact that Jesus speaks in riddles a lot tells me that he won't give a straight answer about salvation, leaving us to scratch our heads and wonder whether or not an all-loving and all-powerful God would really allow Satan to triumph over his creation.
Saved doesn't mean having a relationship with God and eternal life (I'm thinking more in terms of akataluton rather than aionios in this instance). It means being saved the shame, harm, and loss that those that go through God's judgments will face. If a swimmer wasn't saved from drowning, it just means that they drowned. No reflection upon their relationship with their parents, although they might have taken themselves out of the hands of their parents, and if their parents arms are too short to restore them from that, then that's the end of the matter until they see them again after they die.
The agonies of having drowned aren't relational, they're because certain conditions were not being met for the saving of someone's life in ways that obeyed the physics of the earth and of the human body regarding not getting too much water and down the wrong pipe. Irreparable harm isn't done to the relationship between someone that drowned and their parents. The fellowship was simply broken until there's either a miracle or a harvest. When certain conditions aren't met that God put into place, there can be very serious harm whether it's stepping off of the roof of a building without some earthly or heavenly mechanism for keeping one afloat on the air and consequently they fall a couple hundred feet and splat with their clothes exploding off of them because of the force of the impact, or whether the conditions weren't met about a right relationship to water when swimming whether in a pool or in the ocean.
The Scriptures simply say what they say in Romans 10 and in all of the repentance passages, like in Acts 17 and Acts 20. "If you believe in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead while embracing/confessing His Lordship, then you'll be saved, for whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved," according to Paul in Romans 10. If that's not done, then someone's goose really is genuinely cooked and the "well done" they hear from the Lord isn't going to be a compliment, but how long they should stay in that volcanic inferno. However, all of the promises of both destruction and restoration must be fulfilled, so that all that die through the first Adam must be made alive through the last Adam. Not all will be saved, but all that remain outside of salvation will ultimately be restored by those of us that are spiritual, in a spirit of meekness, considering ourselves lest we also be tempted according to Galatians. That passage in Galatians explains why there will never again be another fall. When you play a part in restoring someone else, then you fortify yourself against temptation and destruction.
Quote from: Akira Takahashi on February 09, 2009, 05:24:13 AM
I, too, wish a lot of things had been said better in the Bible, aside from just the issue of salvation.
Agreed.
But I wonder if we would have said that if we lived 30 AD.
Maybe we just think to much at times.
If Jesus said during one of His sermons "Yes, all people will be with me in heaven in due time."
People looked at eachother and said: Great we are part of all.
But when we read the Bible now at every sentence we think of the views of 500 theologians.
When Jesus said "you will be in the earth" people simply thought: Yep all dead are buried in the earth.
But today it's known that in the center of the earth there is a molten core. So suddenly people say that's hell and Jesus was talking about hell.
Perhaps we are making a simple thing hard.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2009, 07:18:35 AM
Quote from: Akira Takahashi on February 09, 2009, 05:24:13 AM
I, too, wish a lot of things had been said better in the Bible, aside from just the issue of salvation.
Agreed.
But I wonder if we would have said that if we lived 30 AD.
Maybe we just think to much at times.
If Jesus said during one of His sermons "Yes, all people will be with me in heaven in due time."
People looked at eachother and said: Great we are part of all.
But when we read the Bible now at every sentence we think of the views of 500 theologians.
When Jesus said "you will be in the earth" people simply thought: Yep all dead are buried in the earth.
But today it's known that in the center of the earth there is a molten core. So suddenly people say that's hell and Jesus was talking about hell.
Perhaps we are making a simple thing hard.
I agree. :hihat:
Quote from: IceDash on February 08, 2009, 09:03:01 PM
This seem to fly in the face of UR's theory of "all" will be saved.
I found this in Revelation 21:27 saying that "only those who are written in the lamb's book of life" will be allow to be in God's new jerusalem.
and also this:
Hebrews 10:31 saying it terrible to fall into the hands of the living God
Doesn't sound really good to fall into the anger God.
Here is where I can be accused of not holding the bible in reverence but it is what it is. I feel a loving God in my life. I honestly do not care what I am told the bible "means".
I'd rather fall into the hands of the God I feel is present in my life than in the hands of what many say God is or in the hands of those who deem themselves so spiritual as to condone (not feel concerned about) the slaughter of those they think have sinned against God.
I'll take my chances out here.
Quote from: martincisneros on February 09, 2009, 05:51:06 AM
Saved doesn't mean having a relationship with God and eternal life (I'm thinking more in terms of akataluton rather than aionios in this instance). It means being saved the shame, harm, and loss that those that go through God's judgments will face. If a swimmer wasn't saved from drowning, it just means that they drowned. No reflection upon their relationship with their parents, although they might have taken themselves out of the hands of their parents, and if their parents arms are too short to restore them from that, then that's the end of the matter until they see them again after they die.
The agonies of having drowned aren't relational, they're because certain conditions were not being met for the saving of someone's life in ways that obeyed the physics of the earth and of the human body regarding not getting too much water and down the wrong pipe. Irreparable harm isn't done to the relationship between someone that drowned and their parents. The fellowship was simply broken until there's either a miracle or a harvest. When certain conditions aren't met that God put into place, there can be very serious harm whether it's stepping off of the roof of a building without some earthly or heavenly mechanism for keeping one afloat on the air and consequently they fall a couple hundred feet and splat with their clothes exploding off of them because of the force of the impact, or whether the conditions weren't met about a right relationship to water when swimming whether in a pool or in the ocean.
The Scriptures simply say what they say in Romans 10 and in all of the repentance passages, like in Acts 17 and Acts 20. "If you believe in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead while embracing/confessing His Lordship, then you'll be saved, for whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved," according to Paul in Romans 10. If that's not done, then someone's goose really is genuinely cooked and the "well done" they hear from the Lord isn't going to be a compliment, but how long they should stay in that volcanic inferno. However, all of the promises of both destruction and restoration must be fulfilled, so that all that die through the first Adam must be made alive through the last Adam. Not all will be saved, but all that remain outside of salvation will ultimately be restored by those of us that are spiritual, in a spirit of meekness, considering ourselves lest we also be tempted according to Galatians. That passage in Galatians explains why there will never again be another fall. When you play a part in restoring someone else, then you fortify yourself against temptation and destruction.
I'm curious as to the difference from what seems to be the common understanding in your usage of the word "saved" here, Martin. If you are correct, then what does 1st Timothy 2:3-4 mean?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 09, 2009, 06:00:24 PM
Quote from: IceDash on February 08, 2009, 09:03:01 PM
This seem to fly in the face of UR's theory of "all" will be saved.
I found this in Revelation 21:27 saying that "only those who are written in the lamb's book of life" will be allow to be in God's new jerusalem.
and also this:
Hebrews 10:31 saying it terrible to fall into the hands of the living God
Doesn't sound really good to fall into the anger God.
Here is where I can be accused of not holding the bible in reverence but it is what it is. I feel a loving God in my life. I honestly do not care what I am told the bible "means".
I'd rather fall into the hands of the God I feel is present in my life than in the hands of what many say God is or in the hands of those who deem themselves so spiritual as to condone (not feel concerned about) the slaughter of those they think have sinned against God.
I'll take my chances out here.
Me too, Paul.