1 Timothy 4:10 - Christ gave himself a corresponding ransom for all, but not all will accept it. 1 Timothy 4:10 points this out. Paul said that Jesus was a savior for all men, potentially, but especially for the faithful.
Found this in http://thedaystar.webs.com/interpretation/hell.html
and also in revelation, jesus talk about "he that overcometh" will have rewards
and Jesus told the believers to stand firm and don't lose faith, does that mean only the belivers will be saved, not the unbelievers?
Because i read again and again but everything you guys said Jesus will save all but one tiny problem, I keep reading jesus only save the "believer", not the unbeliever, they will die and will not remember or come back again
So many "but" in the bible.
It also said that Jesus said that whoever love is mother more than Jesus is not worthy
Whoever clothes in white and follow me wherever I goes is worthy
I am sorry, I am trying to connect the dot here
Jesus is also angry for the unbeliever:
"The Lord Jesus ... in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God ... who shall be punished with everlasting destruction." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
"Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again." -- Psalm 140:10
He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life. -- John 5:24 (applying that if believer believe God send him will have everlasting life, not the unbeliever, so they cannot be saved.)
he man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. John 12:25 (you must hate your life to gain everlasting life?!)
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. -- Matthew 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33 (This one doesn't make sense, it like sayin "kill yourself to be saved?)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. -- Mark 16:16 (you must believe and baptize at the same time)
Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (if this true, look like israel and Moses was being lied to by God! They killed over millions of lamb for nothing!?!?!)
hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (you guys said that you cannot choose to follow God unless God said so, but here it said that we seek him and however, without faith, God is not pleased at all which prove that if you don't have faith, you are nothing to God, this is what it said here)
Here a good example why i like this website (sense of humors) http://www.thebricktestament.com/epistles/on_justice/01_rm09_14.html which explain God made us who we are, no matter what.
This isn't right.
God is promising me that I will live in a world without evil some day.
We are not there yet, but he delivers me from evil in this world now.
We all know that the law does not stop evil. In fact, some of the most evil people are writing the law. But, even the Law of God will not stop many.
Many feel they are 'above the law.' How could that be possible? They think they are gods, that's how.
But it is impossible to please God without the faith of his dear Son, the Lord Jesus. Our spirit cannot testify with his Spirit unless we are given access to his Spirit. This he has done. With his Spirit we can both see evil and survive it.
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.'
--Heb 10
Quote from: IceDash on March 20, 2010, 05:04:34 PM
1 Timothy 4:10 - Christ gave himself a corresponding ransom for all, but not all will accept it.
Not all sounds a lot better than 95% will not accept it
Quote1 Timothy 4:10 points this out. Paul said that Jesus was a savior for all men, potentially, but especially for the faithful.
Jesus likes icecream but especially choclate icecream.
The word potentially is not in the verse.
QuoteFound this in http://thedaystar.webs.com/interpretation/hell.html
and also in revelation, jesus talk about "he that overcometh" will have rewards
and Jesus told the believers to stand firm and don't lose faith, does that mean only the belivers will be saved, not the unbelievers?
I means you should try to be choclate icecream.
QuoteBecause i read again and again but everything you guys said Jesus will save all but one tiny problem, I keep reading jesus only save the "believer", not the unbeliever, they will die and will not remember or come back again
iD, look at it as two step salvation.
Step #1: Put trust/believe in Jesus => Noone comes to Father except through Son
Step #2: Saving starts.
So, imo, the Bible is clear not a single unbeliever will be saved. But... all will believe (eventully)
That's how I understand it.
Quote from: WhiteWings
So, imo, the Bible is clear not a single unbeliever will be saved. But... all will believe (eventully)
That's how I understand it.
Me two WW. :happy3: It's a progressive work.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2010, 07:04:34 PM
Quote from: IceDash on March 20, 2010, 05:04:34 PM
1 Timothy 4:10 - Christ gave himself a corresponding ransom for all, but not all will accept it.
Not all sounds a lot better than 95% will not accept it
Quote1 Timothy 4:10 points this out. Paul said that Jesus was a savior for all men, potentially, but especially for the faithful.
Jesus likes icecream but especially choclate icecream.
The word potentially is not in the verse.
QuoteFound this in http://thedaystar.webs.com/interpretation/hell.html
and also in revelation, jesus talk about "he that overcometh" will have rewards
and Jesus told the believers to stand firm and don't lose faith, does that mean only the belivers will be saved, not the unbelievers?
I means you should try to be choclate icecream.
QuoteBecause i read again and again but everything you guys said Jesus will save all but one tiny problem, I keep reading jesus only save the "believer", not the unbeliever, they will die and will not remember or come back again
iD, look at it as two step salvation.
Step #1: Put trust/believe in Jesus => Noone comes to Father except through Son
Step #2: Saving starts.
So, imo, the Bible is clear not a single unbeliever will be saved. But... all will believe (eventully)
That's how I understand it.
Lol I think I know why you take "chocolate ice cream" word came from, Theobook, the guy who talk about "free will" in other topic somewhere here
Quote from: IceDash on March 23, 2010, 02:54:26 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2010, 07:04:34 PM
Quote from: IceDash on March 20, 2010, 05:04:34 PM
1 Timothy 4:10 - Christ gave himself a corresponding ransom for all, but not all will accept it.
Not all sounds a lot better than 95% will not accept it
Quote1 Timothy 4:10 points this out. Paul said that Jesus was a savior for all men, potentially, but especially for the faithful.
Jesus likes icecream but especially choclate icecream.
The word potentially is not in the verse.
QuoteFound this in http://thedaystar.webs.com/interpretation/hell.html
and also in revelation, jesus talk about "he that overcometh" will have rewards
and Jesus told the believers to stand firm and don't lose faith, does that mean only the belivers will be saved, not the unbelievers?
I means you should try to be choclate icecream.
QuoteBecause i read again and again but everything you guys said Jesus will save all but one tiny problem, I keep reading jesus only save the "believer", not the unbeliever, they will die and will not remember or come back again
iD, look at it as two step salvation.
Step #1: Put trust/believe in Jesus => Noone comes to Father except through Son
Step #2: Saving starts.
So, imo, the Bible is clear not a single unbeliever will be saved. But... all will believe (eventully)
That's how I understand it.
Lol I think I know why you take "chocolate ice cream" word came from, Theobook, the guy who talk about "free will" in other topic somewhere here
Really? Where?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:36:51 PM
Quote from: IceDash on March 23, 2010, 02:54:26 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2010, 07:04:34 PM
Quote from: IceDash on March 20, 2010, 05:04:34 PM
1 Timothy 4:10 - Christ gave himself a corresponding ransom for all, but not all will accept it.
Not all sounds a lot better than 95% will not accept it
Quote1 Timothy 4:10 points this out. Paul said that Jesus was a savior for all men, potentially, but especially for the faithful.
Jesus likes icecream but especially choclate icecream.
The word potentially is not in the verse.
QuoteFound this in http://thedaystar.webs.com/interpretation/hell.html
and also in revelation, jesus talk about "he that overcometh" will have rewards
and Jesus told the believers to stand firm and don't lose faith, does that mean only the belivers will be saved, not the unbelievers?
I means you should try to be choclate icecream.
QuoteBecause i read again and again but everything you guys said Jesus will save all but one tiny problem, I keep reading jesus only save the "believer", not the unbeliever, they will die and will not remember or come back again
iD, look at it as two step salvation.
Step #1: Put trust/believe in Jesus => Noone comes to Father except through Son
Step #2: Saving starts.
So, imo, the Bible is clear not a single unbeliever will be saved. But... all will believe (eventully)
That's how I understand it.
Lol I think I know why you take "chocolate ice cream" word came from, Theobook, the guy who talk about "free will" in other topic somewhere here
Really? Where?
lol here:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.75
Allow an illustration. God/Man - Father/Son - YOU/YOUR SON
YOU to Son: "Where would you like to go today to celebrate your birthday?"
Son: "To Uncle Henry's for cake and ice Cream and lots of friends to share with."
YOU: "What flavour Ice Cream, what kind of cake?"
Son: "Chocolate."
YOU: "Cake?" or "Ice Cream?"
Son: "Both."
YOU: "Too much Chocolate." Choose another flavor for one of them."
Son: "Aw, Dad, You know how I love Chocolate. Just for today for my birthday?" "Please!"
YOU: "Well.l.l.l.l.l..."
Son: "Thanks Dad." "I'll go get the invitations ready to send out."
Quote from: IceDash on March 28, 2010, 02:14:23 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:36:51 PM
Quote from: IceDash on March 23, 2010, 02:54:26 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2010, 07:04:34 PM
Quote from: IceDash on March 20, 2010, 05:04:34 PM
1 Timothy 4:10 - Christ gave himself a corresponding ransom for all, but not all will accept it.
Not all sounds a lot better than 95% will not accept it
Quote1 Timothy 4:10 points this out. Paul said that Jesus was a savior for all men, potentially, but especially for the faithful.
Jesus likes icecream but especially choclate icecream.
The word potentially is not in the verse.
QuoteFound this in http://thedaystar.webs.com/interpretation/hell.html
and also in revelation, jesus talk about "he that overcometh" will have rewards
and Jesus told the believers to stand firm and don't lose faith, does that mean only the belivers will be saved, not the unbelievers?
I means you should try to be choclate icecream.
QuoteBecause i read again and again but everything you guys said Jesus will save all but one tiny problem, I keep reading jesus only save the "believer", not the unbeliever, they will die and will not remember or come back again
iD, look at it as two step salvation.
Step #1: Put trust/believe in Jesus => Noone comes to Father except through Son
Step #2: Saving starts.
So, imo, the Bible is clear not a single unbeliever will be saved. But... all will believe (eventully)
That's how I understand it.
Lol I think I know why you take "chocolate ice cream" word came from, Theobook, the guy who talk about "free will" in other topic somewhere here
Really? Where?
lol here:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.75
Allow an illustration. God/Man - Father/Son - YOU/YOUR SON
YOU to Son: "Where would you like to go today to celebrate your birthday?"
Son: "To Uncle Henry's for cake and ice Cream and lots of friends to share with."
YOU: "What flavour Ice Cream, what kind of cake?"
Son: "Chocolate."
YOU: "Cake?" or "Ice Cream?"
Son: "Both."
YOU: "Too much Chocolate." Choose another flavor for one of them."
Son: "Aw, Dad, You know how I love Chocolate. Just for today for my birthday?" "Please!"
YOU: "Well.l.l.l.l.l..."
Son: "Thanks Dad." "I'll go get the invitations ready to send out."
Must have had brainfreeze from too much chocolate ice cream.
Thanks!
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 03:32:16 PM
Quote from: IceDash on March 28, 2010, 02:14:23 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:36:51 PM
Quote from: IceDash on March 23, 2010, 02:54:26 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2010, 07:04:34 PM
Quote from: IceDash on March 20, 2010, 05:04:34 PM
1 Timothy 4:10 - Christ gave himself a corresponding ransom for all, but not all will accept it.
Not all sounds a lot better than 95% will not accept it
Quote1 Timothy 4:10 points this out. Paul said that Jesus was a savior for all men, potentially, but especially for the faithful.
Jesus likes icecream but especially choclate icecream.
The word potentially is not in the verse.
QuoteFound this in http://thedaystar.webs.com/interpretation/hell.html
and also in revelation, jesus talk about "he that overcometh" will have rewards
and Jesus told the believers to stand firm and don't lose faith, does that mean only the belivers will be saved, not the unbelievers?
I means you should try to be choclate icecream.
QuoteBecause i read again and again but everything you guys said Jesus will save all but one tiny problem, I keep reading jesus only save the "believer", not the unbeliever, they will die and will not remember or come back again
iD, look at it as two step salvation.
Step #1: Put trust/believe in Jesus => Noone comes to Father except through Son
Step #2: Saving starts.
So, imo, the Bible is clear not a single unbeliever will be saved. But... all will believe (eventully)
That's how I understand it.
Lol I think I know why you take "chocolate ice cream" word came from, Theobook, the guy who talk about "free will" in other topic somewhere here
Really? Where?
lol here:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.75
Allow an illustration. God/Man - Father/Son - YOU/YOUR SON
YOU to Son: "Where would you like to go today to celebrate your birthday?"
Son: "To Uncle Henry's for cake and ice Cream and lots of friends to share with."
YOU: "What flavour Ice Cream, what kind of cake?"
Son: "Chocolate."
YOU: "Cake?" or "Ice Cream?"
Son: "Both."
YOU: "Too much Chocolate." Choose another flavor for one of them."
Son: "Aw, Dad, You know how I love Chocolate. Just for today for my birthday?" "Please!"
YOU: "Well.l.l.l.l.l..."
Son: "Thanks Dad." "I'll go get the invitations ready to send out."
Must have had brainfreeze from too much chocolate ice cream.
Thanks!
lol...I am good reader and I can remember everything here
Quote from: IceDash on March 28, 2010, 04:53:52 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 03:32:16 PM
Quote from: IceDash on March 28, 2010, 02:14:23 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:36:51 PM
Quote from: IceDash on March 23, 2010, 02:54:26 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2010, 07:04:34 PM
Quote from: IceDash on March 20, 2010, 05:04:34 PM
1 Timothy 4:10 - Christ gave himself a corresponding ransom for all, but not all will accept it.
Not all sounds a lot better than 95% will not accept it
Quote1 Timothy 4:10 points this out. Paul said that Jesus was a savior for all men, potentially, but especially for the faithful.
Jesus likes icecream but especially choclate icecream.
The word potentially is not in the verse.
QuoteFound this in http://thedaystar.webs.com/interpretation/hell.html
and also in revelation, jesus talk about "he that overcometh" will have rewards
and Jesus told the believers to stand firm and don't lose faith, does that mean only the belivers will be saved, not the unbelievers?
I means you should try to be choclate icecream.
QuoteBecause i read again and again but everything you guys said Jesus will save all but one tiny problem, I keep reading jesus only save the "believer", not the unbeliever, they will die and will not remember or come back again
iD, look at it as two step salvation.
Step #1: Put trust/believe in Jesus => Noone comes to Father except through Son
Step #2: Saving starts.
So, imo, the Bible is clear not a single unbeliever will be saved. But... all will believe (eventully)
That's how I understand it.
Lol I think I know why you take "chocolate ice cream" word came from, Theobook, the guy who talk about "free will" in other topic somewhere here
Really? Where?
lol here:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.75
Allow an illustration. God/Man - Father/Son - YOU/YOUR SON
YOU to Son: "Where would you like to go today to celebrate your birthday?"
Son: "To Uncle Henry's for cake and ice Cream and lots of friends to share with."
YOU: "What flavour Ice Cream, what kind of cake?"
Son: "Chocolate."
YOU: "Cake?" or "Ice Cream?"
Son: "Both."
YOU: "Too much Chocolate." Choose another flavor for one of them."
Son: "Aw, Dad, You know how I love Chocolate. Just for today for my birthday?" "Please!"
YOU: "Well.l.l.l.l.l..."
Son: "Thanks Dad." "I'll go get the invitations ready to send out."
Must have had brainfreeze from too much chocolate ice cream.
Thanks!
lol...I am good reader and I can remember everything here
Well, it is one thing to forget what one READS, but to forget what one WROTE...???
Quote from: TheoGod,
Who knows me best,
Loved me just enough.
That's beautiful!
Hi
Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost-Not just seek-for He can easily find us all lost. but to save that which was lost. All of us were lost. I believe he will do what he came to do!! Save all of us who were lost! :grin:
Quote from: mikeeb on March 29, 2010, 10:02:15 PM
Hi
Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost-Not just seek-for He can easily find us all lost. but to save that which was lost. All of us were lost. I believe he will do what he came to do!! Save all of us who were lost! :grin:
Yes, but didn't God say he gave those who believe on his son, power to become sons of God? Is salvation also going to those who reject his son? THAT is still a problem for me.
I understand that most take the broad road to destruction, and are then saved as by fire.
Bible verses aside, the idea that any being would reject all that is good, love and just(GOD) for all eternity is beyond comprehension. And I think such verses as Philippians 2:10-11(which I recently got tattooed on my arm in greek lol) single handily dispel such an idea. Why would someone bow and confess to Christ in such surrender and worship, and then go back to rebelling and rejecting him forever and ever? Something is amiss about our concepts.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 02:17:01 AM
Quote from: mikeeb on March 29, 2010, 10:02:15 PM
Hi
Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost-Not just seek-for He can easily find us all lost. but to save that which was lost. All of us were lost. I believe he will do what he came to do!! Save all of us who were lost! :grin:
Yes, but didn't God say he gave those who believe on his son, power to become sons of God? Is salvation also going to those who reject his son? THAT is still a problem for me.
The coin was lost too. The coin wasn't aware of anything. But still the owner actively searched for it and was happy when the coin was found.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2010, 08:51:47 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 02:17:01 AM
Quote from: mikeeb on March 29, 2010, 10:02:15 PM
Hi
Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost-Not just seek-for He can easily find us all lost. but to save that which was lost. All of us were lost. I believe he will do what he came to do!! Save all of us who were lost! :grin:
Yes, but didn't God say he gave those who believe on his son, power to become sons of God? Is salvation also going to those who reject his son? THAT is still a problem for me.
The coin was lost too. The coin wasn't aware of anything. But still the owner actively searched for it and was happy when the coin was found.
Right! The coin did not reject its owner, the owner lost the coin. Looked for it. Found it. What's the point of that? Value to the owner even of inanimate coins, how much more animate beings.
Amen, true, He does.
Also, I've been thinking about this coin example you cite from time to time WW. It reminds me of this - .."God has shut up all to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all". Romans 11:32. God's plan. God is good. :thumbsup:
Theo I see 3 "levels"
Coin parable: Coin was lost/destroyed. Coin did nothing wrong. Knew or desired nothing.
Sheep parable: 1 sheep went astray/destroyed. Not sure the sheep did something wrong. They are not very smart.
Prodical son: The son was destroyed too. And without any question accepted back. This parable seems teh only one that requires action from the one that is lost/destroyed.
About the "levels" does anyone also see them? If so what is the significance of them?
Prodical son = elect?
Theo when I write elect I mean saved first, not only saved.
A great UR verse imo
KJVJoh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
I think there are only two flocks.
Flock of Jesus.
Flock of satan. (not of this flock)
Jesus says satans sheep will follow Him.
Jesus says in the end there will be one flock. I take the liberty to assume He doesn't mean that satan steals all of His sheep :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2010, 02:14:07 PM
Theo I see 3 "levels"
Coin parable: Coin was lost/destroyed. Coin did nothing wrong. Knew or desired nothing.
Sheep parable: 1 sheep went astray/destroyed. Not sure the sheep did something wrong. They are not very smart.
Prodical son: The son was destroyed too. And without any question accepted back. This parable seems teh only one that requires action from the one that is lost/destroyed.
About the "levels" does anyone also see them? If so what is the significance of them?
Prodical son = elect?
Theo when I write elect I mean saved first, not only saved.
I think not all loss is destruction. Neither the sheep nor the coin was destroyed, though both were lost. But it was a temporary loss. And you might notice, "aownion" was not applied to them.
I can't check right now, so from memory:
The coin, sheep and son where all lost.
Lost = apollumi = word used elsewhere for destroyed
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2010, 03:27:27 PM
I can't check right now, so from memory:
The coin, sheep and son where all lost.
Lost = apollumi = word used elsewhere for destroyed
Hmmm!!!
I see you are correct in this, and I have yet another "thing" to contemplate.
I just wish the board would open up to a full discussion with no limitations, kept in oreder by the moderators to stop any destructive criticism, but open to exchange of ideas.
oh, well!!!
Maybe the wide road that leads to destruction can also be read as the wide road on which most sheep get lost. :dontknow:
(but the shepherd still keeps seaching)
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2010, 05:21:57 PM
Maybe the wide road that leads to destruction can also be read as the wide road on which most sheep get lost. :dontknow:
(but the shepherd still keeps seaching)
what about the goats?
The issue is what God will do and what that means if he IS LOVE.
Scripture directly declares that GOD IS LOVE. GOD is not Wrath or judgment or punishment or correction or righteousness those are by scriptural wording , things God does or posesses.
When that is known, then the issue is not that God has Wrath, it is what Love does with Wrath, What does love do with righteousness, what does love do with punishment, what does love do with correction, what does love do with judgment.
We do not need the ability to discuss any term in a forum, we just need to take scripture and ask the right questions.
Quote from: Zeek on March 31, 2010, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2010, 05:21:57 PM
Maybe the wide road that leads to destruction can also be read as the wide road on which most sheep get lost. :dontknow:
(but the shepherd still keeps seaching)
what about the goats?
I don't know Zeek....
Do you think Jesus is only a shepherd of sheep? If so that would mean sheep are the elect and goats are the 95% of Calvinism...
I dunno, but I've read that goats were also a "clean" animal..now where that all fits, not sure. Is it something deeper/different than what's on the surface, or how we usually see it and are taught it? :scratchhead: Remember, He spoke in parables "lest they would understand and believe"!
Well, something to think about; is in the prodigal son story, both were sons; but there are those who are referred to as "children of satan", the father of lies.
and sons are chastened; but there are "bastards".
Quote from: Zeek on March 31, 2010, 09:12:50 PM
Well, something to think about; is in the prodigal son story, both were sons; but there are those who are referred to as "children of satan", the father of lies.
and sons are chastened; but there are "bastards".
Both were sons in what sense? I don't think you can conclude from the fact that they are called "sons" in the parable that they types of "Sons of God". In fact, I don't believe either were "Sons of God" at the start of the story, and only the younger was a "Son of God" by the end of the story.
In one of Jesus' other parables there were also two "sons". One said "yes" but did not go. The other said "no" but later went. The former represented the pharisees. The latter represented the sinners who were preceding the pharisees into the kingdom of God. Cleary the pharisees were not "Sons of God" by spiritual birth. Yet they are a "son" in the parable.
to the older son
31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.
Quote from: Zeek on March 31, 2010, 09:42:18 PM
to the older son
31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.
Those who are in bondage, under the elements of the world (e.g. the pharisees, servants not spiritual Sons of God) are still considered "heirs" and "lord of all" seeing that at the time appointed by the Father will become Sons of God and inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Quote from: bobf on March 31, 2010, 10:46:06 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 31, 2010, 09:42:18 PM
to the older son
31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.
Those who are in bondage, under the elements of the world (e.g. the pharisees, servants not spiritual Sons of God) are still considered "heirs" and "lord of all" seeing that at the time appointed by the Father will become Sons of God and inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
:thumbsup:
Two levels here:
elect/sheep/firstfruits - these are saved now, in this life, they are the "sons of God".
Non-elect/goats(maybe)/lastfruits - these are saved later, brought into the kingdom (not the reign though) later through the sons of God.
Scripture speaks of both groups. Most people assumed the non-elect are not saved. Not true. They are just saved later. Everyone has their appointed position, everyone will learn the truth.
Consider this verse, the NLT makes this idea a bit clearer:
Romans 8:20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
All creation (everyone) will join God's children! That is good news.
Quote from: jabcat on March 31, 2010, 09:10:25 PMI dunno, but I've read that goats were also a "clean" animal..
Must be in one of Cardinals posts. At least she's teh only one I remember mentioning it.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7215.msg83220#msg83220 ==> still waiting for #121 :laughing7:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6676.msg73194#msg73194 ==> Goat hair curtains on tabernacle
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6677.msg73186#msg73186
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1171.msg9491#msg9491 ==> seperating goats and sheep
Mybe the goat is our sinful part that gets purged. Just like wheat. The seeds are saved and the chaff destroyed. 1 plant 2 actions.
Time for to count some sheep :lazy: :snor: Nite.
Quote from: legoman on March 31, 2010, 10:56:42 PM
Two levels here:
elect/sheep/firstfruits - these are saved now, in this life, they are the "sons of God".
Non-elect/goats(maybe)/lastfruits - these are saved later, brought into the kingdom (not the reign though) later through the sons of God.
Scripture speaks of both groups. Most people assumed the non-elect are not saved. Not true. They are just saved later. Everyone has their appointed position, everyone will learn the truth.
Consider this verse, the NLT makes this idea a bit clearer:
Romans 8:20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
All creation (everyone) will join God's children! That is good news.
The way I understand it is that the word "elect" refers to a person when he is saved or when looking forward to when he is saved. In other words, the "lastfruits" are (will be) just as much "elect" as firstfruits.
For an example of this, look at Romans 11.
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.The elect obtained but the rest were blinded. So "the rest" are being excluded from "the elect" here. But that's only because it is viewing them in the present. When looking into the future, these same blinded enemies of the gospel are referred to as "the election".
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.......................hmmmm.... I just had another thought that could undo what I just wrote. Does "the election" in verse 28 refer to the ultimate election of these enemies of the gospel or does it refer to the election of the fathers?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 31, 2010, 05:46:04 PM
The issue is what God will do and what that means if he IS LOVE.
Scripture directly declares that GOD IS LOVE. GOD is not Wrath or judgment or punishment or correction or righteousness those are by scriptural wording , things God does or posesses.
When that is known, then the issue is not that God has Wrath, it is what Love does with Wrath, What does love do with righteousness, what does love do with punishment, what does love do with correction, what does love do with judgment.
We do not need the ability to discuss any term in a forum, we just need to take scripture and ask the right questions.
Well, I will admit that MAY be one possibility, But what if the opposite is true? Suppose God is a God of vengeance, and his vengeance is tempered with Love toward his people.
Ezekiel 25:14 And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.
Nahum 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
It may well be a dangerous stand to take that God is love, and only temporarily hates his enemies. Rather, look to God who is the God of vengeance, taking vengeance even unto the fourth generation, though he tempers his wrath with love, on HIS PEOPLE.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 02, 2010, 05:03:23 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 31, 2010, 05:46:04 PM
The issue is what God will do and what that means if he IS LOVE.
Scripture directly declares that GOD IS LOVE. GOD is not Wrath or judgment or punishment or correction or righteousness those are by scriptural wording , things God does or posesses.
When that is known, then the issue is not that God has Wrath, it is what Love does with Wrath, What does love do with righteousness, what does love do with punishment, what does love do with correction, what does love do with judgment.
We do not need the ability to discuss any term in a forum, we just need to take scripture and ask the right questions.
Well, I will admit that MAY be one possibility, But what if the opposite is true? Suppose God is a God of vengeance, and his vengeance is tempered with Love toward his people.
Ezekiel 25:14 And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.
Nahum 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
It may well be a dangerous stand to take that God is love, and only temporarily hates his enemies. Rather, look to God who is the God of vengeance, taking vengeance even unto the fourth generation, though he tempers his wrath with love, on HIS PEOPLE.
Well, "is" is an additional word in the scripture, from the hebrew it is not there between God and Jealous.
el qannow naqam
Explain this "dangerous" stand that may well be.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 02, 2010, 05:03:23 PMIt may well be a dangerous stand to take that God is love, and only temporarily hates his enemies. Rather, look to God who is the God of vengeance, taking vengeance even unto the fourth generation, though he tempers his wrath with love, on HIS PEOPLE.
Hi Theo,
You are right that God is God of vengeance. It's written so it's true. However veneance can have many gradation. Slap on the wrist of eternal torture.
However God is also a God of love. That's also a fact because it's written in the Bible.
Imo the Bible shows limititations. And the verses showing that limitations may give you your answer....
Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.
---> This is not only for this lifetime...
Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change....
Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.
Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
1 Corinthians 13:8 The love doth never fail.
Chronicles 16:34 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
Lamentations 3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Micah 7:18-19 .... he does not keep his wrath for ever, because his delight is in mercy....He will again have pity on us
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.
Most of those verses mention wrath/vengeance/punishment/etc
But in the very same verse there is always a second part of the verse that strongly states love will conquer.
I think thes verses are of great importance because both concepts are mentioned in one verse. It's easy to understand. No discussions about linking a hate verse in genesis to a love verse in Revelation.
I hope it's of some use to you.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2010, 06:13:56 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 02, 2010, 05:03:23 PMIt may well be a dangerous stand to take that God is love, and only temporarily hates his enemies. Rather, look to God who is the God of vengeance, taking vengeance even unto the fourth generation, though he tempers his wrath with love, on HIS PEOPLE.
Hi Theo,
You are right that God is God of vengeance. It's written so it's true. However veneance can have many gradation. Slap on the wrist of eternal torture.
However God is also a God of love. That's also a fact because it's written in the Bible.
Imo the Bible shows limititations. And the verses showing that limitations may give you your answer....
Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.
---> This is not only for this lifetime... Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change....
Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.
Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
1 Corinthians 13:8 The love doth never fail.
Chronicles 16:34 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
Lamentations 3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Micah 7:18-19 .... he does not keep his wrath for ever, because his delight is in mercy....He will again have pity on us
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.
Most of those verses mention wrath/vengeance/punishment/etc
But in the very same verse there is always a second part of the verse that strongly states love will conquer.
I think thes verses are of great importance because both concepts are mentioned in one verse. It's easy to understand. No discussions about linking a hate verse in genesis to a love verse in Revelation.
I hope it's of some use to you.
Very much so. Thank you.