MUCH MORE then aionios life
Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.
They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.
But the Universalist need not change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.
Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.
The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at a few scriptures from the old testament.
Habakkuk 3:6
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.
Now the only way for those who believe in eternal torment can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence and means something else in the second part of the sentence. Thus even though Matt says the Universalist must do this in order for their theology to work, we can see that those who believe in eternal torment must do this in order to make their theology to work. But the Unversalist need not do thing in order for their theology to work, I'll show why in a few minutes, please bare with me.
Psalm 41:13
13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.
If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.
So as the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.
But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.
I already know many will say that's blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.
Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.
Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.
The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.
The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.
Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.
Hebrews 7:16
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without beginning and without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?
What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.
Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
1 Peter 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?
These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.
If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.
Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.
Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.
God bless
Hi pneuma,
QuoteMany of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.
I'm not sure who you are referring to here. Are you saying that Universalists have a hard time, or those who believe in eternal punishment? From my perspective, translating the words to their proper meaning of Age clears up more problems in scripture than it creates.
Believers in eternal punishment are the ones with the difficulty, thats why there are websites with horribly convoluted apologetics trying to dance around all the contradictions they create.
QuoteBut the Universalist need not change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.
I do not believe Universalists are changing the meaning, I believe Christendom has and then go to all lengths to contrive explanations to the contradictions it causes.
I understand what your saying, but everlasting is not a proper translation.
When everlasting is used in the old testament then there is a blatent contradiction concerning the Levitical priesthood. The levitical priesthood was not everlasting.
It may indeed make sense and be true that God is everlasting, but that does not mean we should use a word incorrectly in scripture as it causes other scriptures to be interpreted incorrectly.
Some old songs contain the truth of scripture. "The Rock of Ages"
Hi Paul, I think you misunderstood my post.
QuoteI'm not sure who you are referring to here. Are you saying that Universalists have a hard time, or those who believe in eternal punishment? From my perspective, translating the words to their proper meaning of Age clears up more problems in scripture than it creates.
Both change the meaning of the word within one sentence.
I have seen the Universalist change the meaning here
Mt.25:46 says
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.
Both everlasting and eternal are the Greek word aionios.
And the way many Universalist deal with this scripture is to say something along the lines of, aionios in punishment means a limited time frame but when aionios is applied to God or eternal life it mean without end. The subject making the difference between whether or not it is limited or unlimited.
And this is one of the reason the opponents of Universalism say Universalism cannot be true, because the Universalist has to change the meaning within one sentence to make it fit their view.
To me the word must carry the same meaning when used in one sentence and to change it is playing with words to suit one doctrine.
My post was to show the Universalist need not do this, as the life we have in Christ is much more then aionios life or age-lasting life. The life we have in Christ is the life of all ages, from everlasting to everlasting.
Those who believe in eternal torment change the meaning within the sentence in Ro.5:18 saying that all means all when speaking of the offence, but all does not mean all when speaking of the free gift.
Those who believe in eternal torment will always have to change the mean to words, but the Universalist does not, even though some do concerning eternal life, I was showing they need not do this in order to have the life in Christ to be without end, thus I gave other scriptures show are life in Christ is much more then aionios or age-lasting life our life in Christ is ENDLESS.
QuoteIt may indeed make sense and be true that God is everlasting, but that does not mean we should use a word incorrectly in scripture as it causes other scriptures to be interpreted incorrectly.
I used the scripture everlasting to everlasting to show that everlasting does not mean eternal in the sense of without end, for how can you have more then one eternity?
Thus from everlasting to everlasting clearly shows olam the Heb. To be only an age.
From age to age.
As Gods life exceeds one age to another, so to does our life in Christ.
Everlasting God when translated from the Heb. Literally means "God of the AGES"
Thus my post was to show the Universalist need not change the meaning, as some have.
Hope that helped clear up what I was saying Paul, if not read my last reply to Matt Slick concerning MT.25:46.
God bless
Quote from: pneuma on June 29, 2008, 07:30:51 PMSo as the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.
Hi Pnema,
When God says He "will not cast of
olam" (Lamentations 3) how can that be a limited duration? God will cast off for a duration, but what God won't do is cast off forever.
Quote from: bobf on July 03, 2008, 01:16:37 AM
When God says He "will not cast of olam" (Lamentations 3) how can that be a limited duration? God will cast off for a duration, but what God won't do is cast off forever.
When it says that God won't cast off for as long as an olam, that does not mean that we must suddenly understand olam to mean eternal for that passage. If He won't cast off for as long as an age, that's a tremendous promise of Scripture! To be Biblically consistent so that we don't feed into the mania of those that say that the Bible is hopelessly full of contradictions to where we can't ever really know anything from it with any degree of consistency, we must carefully examine Lamentations for any particulars on why in that instance He wouldn't cast off for as long as an age, which sins and circumstances were involved, etc. 'cause elsewhere there is a reference to Him not forgiving for this age or the age to come. If an age in Scripture is as short as Jonah's duration in the belly of the beast, then that doesn't necessarily mean that "neither in this age or in the age to come" would have to be over a week. It could be, but not necessarily. In Lamentations, if nothing particularly distinguishes that "won't cast off for an age" from any other references or allusions to God casting off, then perhaps it's as simple as the fact that judgment was already upon them, and Jeremiah was simply saying that this judgment wasn't going to go on and on.
Quote from: bobf on July 03, 2008, 01:16:37 AM
Quote from: pneuma on June 29, 2008, 07:30:51 PMSo as the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.
Hi Pnema,
When God says He "will not cast of olam" (Lamentations 3) how can that be a limited duration? God will cast off for a duration, but what God won't do is cast off forever.
Quote from: bobf on July 03, 2008, 01:16:37 AM
Quote from: pneuma on June 29, 2008, 07:30:51 PMSo as the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.
Hi Pnema,
When God says He "will not cast of olam" (Lamentations 3) how can that be a limited duration? God will cast off for a duration, but what God won't do is cast off forever.
Hi bob good to see you again brother.
Martin gave a good answer to your question (thanks Martin) when he said "If He won't cast off for as long as an age, that's a tremendous promise of Scripture!"
During judgment God will not cast off for the whole of the age but rather He is pruning and gathering within the age of judgment.
When the completion of the age comes every knee shall bow and tongue confess, all outside the gates will have entered in, and all will be in Christ and Christ in all.
QuoteTo me the word must carry the same meaning when used in one sentence and to change it is playing with words to suit one doctrine.
Before you can say words are fitted to a doctrine you have to exactly know if such 'fitting' was common use in the days of Jesus.
There is a funny article dealing with exactly this problem in English somewhere on the internet.
The same English word was used X times in once sentence and had a different meaning every time.
The problem is for me that the Greek I know is barely enough to order something in a Greek restaurant :-)
And I'm certainly no scholar in ancient Greek so I have to limit myself to articles like the ones found on the Tentmaker site.
There are 3 ways of interpenetrating Mt.25:46
a] Same word, same meaning and it simply means eternal. Many verses prove this wrong.
b] Mixed meaning. Limited and unlimited. Those in punishment move into eternity after they are purified.
c] Both limited. After the age ends all goto into eternity.
So b or c doesn't make a real difference.
I found this passage in an article.
QuoteHow will death be destroyed? Paul give the answer in the context, "For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ shall all be made
alive." (1 Cor. 15:22, KJV) Now I know that some say that Paul is teaching in this verse that all will be resurrected, but the word
used by Paul is "zoopoiethesontai" and this is a future passive verb meaning to vivify, to make alive beyond the reach of death.
The Greek word "anastasis" means resurrection and is used in verse 21. We know that Jesus resurrected several people as
recorded in the Gospels, but that does not mean they received unending life at that point. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 teaches that
there are three classes of orders that will be made alive. First, Christ, the first fruit. The word "first fruit" is singular in the Greek,
not first fruits plural as in the King James Version. Second, they that are Christ's at His coming (Greek, parousia, appearing). This
class includes all the Christians dead or alive. (See 1 Thess. 4:13-18) The third class is referred to as "then cometh the end." This
includes the residue of all mankind who died in Adam. This is clearly taught in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. Therefore, these scriptures teach
that all mankind who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ and I repeat, this is not resurrection. Unfortunately, many translations
put a period between the second and third order of being made alive. The Greek does not have a period here. (1 Cor. 15:23,24) It
is supplied by some translators.
QuoteHow will death be destroyed? Paul give the answer in the context, "For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ shall all be made
alive." (1 Cor. 15:22, KJV) Now I know that some say that Paul is teaching in this verse that all will be resurrected, but the word
used by Paul is "zoopoiethesontai" and this is a future passive verb meaning to vivify, to make alive beyond the reach of death.
The Greek word "anastasis" means resurrection and is used in verse 21. We know that Jesus resurrected several people as
recorded in the Gospels, but that does not mean they received unending life at that point. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 teaches that
there are three classes of orders that will be made alive. First, Christ, the first fruit. The word "first fruit" is singular in the Greek,
not first fruits plural as in the King James Version. Second, they that are Christ's at His coming (Greek, parousia, appearing). This
class includes all the Christians dead or alive. (See 1 Thess. 4:13-18) The third class is referred to as "then cometh the end." This
includes the residue of all mankind who died in Adam. This is clearly taught in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. Therefore, these scriptures teach
that all mankind who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ and I repeat, this is not resurrection. Unfortunately, many translations
put a period between the second and third order of being made alive. The Greek does not have a period here. (1 Cor. 15:23,24) It
is supplied by some translators.
Hi WW, to me that still speaks of resurrection know matter how one cuts it. For if one is dead and then made alive that is resurrection.