More attempted refutations of UR

[Jon]

As with those in the article I linked from the last thread I started, the arguments against universalism to be found in this treatise - http://www.gospelgazette.com/gazette/1999/aug/page16.shtml - are not representative of my views, but it does still make a change I'd say (especially when I compare it to what I would regularly encounter in the days when I used to visit CARM!) to see such arguments put forward in what I would describe as a calm, mature and non-mean-spirited manner.

Anyone have any comments they'd like to make on any of its author's claims?

[FineLinen]

Hey all,
I am once again involved in debate on another forum (the same one as before) and I posted about the 6 known early theological schools. I cited Wikipedia and another Universalist site as my source but for some reason, even though this seems to be historically sound and accurate, those reading will not accept that these schools even existed. They say I need to post at least 3 non-biased (aka non-Universalist) sources that say these schools existed. The Herzog Encyclopedia Of Religious Knowledge apparently ins't enough for them. Anyone have any ideas on where I can find some non-Universalist links that would show some historical facts about these schools as evidence? It is much appreciated.

My friend: if Schaff-Hertzog is not accepted, two or three other sources will not be either. Further:  there is zero information that would indicate either Philip Schaff or Johann Herzog believed in, or leaned to, the restitution of all things. If so, I would most certainly appreciate the information (not that it would change the scholarship).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schaff-Herzog_Encyclopedia_of_Religious_Knowledge

Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia Of Religious Knowledge

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc13/htm/TOC.htm

Universalism: The Majority Belief Of The Early Church

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc12/Page_96.html

"Under the instruction of these great teachers many other theologians believed in universal salvation; and indeed the whole Eastern Church until after 500 A.D. were inclined to it."

"In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria , Antioch, Cæsarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown. Doederlein says that "In proportion as any man was eminent in learning in Christian antiquity, the more did he cherish and defend the hope of the termination of future torments." In the dark ages Universalism almost disappeared, but in the ninth century it had one great representative, John Scotus Erigena (see Scotus Erigena, Johannes), who was the chief Christian luminary of his time. In the Middle Ages, some of the lesser mystics and probably Johann Tauler and Jan van Ruysbroeck (qq.v.), and one leading scholastic, Albertus Magnus (q.v.), were Universalists. In the times of the Reformation Universalists were found among Anabaptists, Lollards, and Protestant mystics; and later there were increasing numbers of individual believers in this doctrine in all northern European countries, including such men as Kant, Schleiermacher, Ritschl and many of his followers, Archbishop Tillotson, Tennyson, the Brownings, Wordsworth, and Coleridge.

Who Was Rev. Philip Schaff D.D.?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2065/is_n1_v47/ai_16420083/pg_1

Career of the man whom theologians regarded as one of the greatest teachers on Church History

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F03E5DC173EEF33A25752C2A9669D94629ED7CF

Who Was Johann J. Hertzog

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9040271/Johann-Jakob-Herzog

Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine

HERE

Not only are copious citations given from the ancient Universalists themselves, but abstracts and compendiums of their opinions, and testimonials as to their scholarship and saintliness, are presented from the most eminent authors who have written of them. No equal number of the church's early saints has ever received such glowing eulogies from so many scholars and critics as the ancient Universalists have extorted from such authors as Socrates, Neander, Mosheim, Huet, Dorner, Dietelmaier, Beecher, Schaff, Plumptre, Bigg, Farrar, Bunsen, Cave, Westcott, Robertson, Butler, Allen, De Pressense, Gieseler, Lardner, Hagenbach, Blunt, and others, not professed Universalists.

[FineLinen]

http://www.gospelgazette.com/gazette/1999/aug/page16.shtml

Hi there Jon....

If Universalism were true and it were equally true that there is no eternal hell, Christian zeal would not be necessary. 

Christian zeal has nothing to do with hell, "eternal hell", or on the basis of the restitution of all things. The followers of the Lamb go into all the world and preach the good news on the foundation of His commands and in obedience to Him.

I have searched the Scriptures for all references to "eternal" hell and have found none. Nor have I found "everlasting death" or "eternal separation" but keep getting those nasty messages...

Your search query for 'eternal hell' have yielded no results. Please modify your search query and try again.

[jenna]

http://www.gospelgazette.com/gazette/1999/aug/page16.shtml

Hi there Jon....

If Universalism were true and it were equally true that there is no eternal hell, Christian zeal would not be necessary. 

Christian zeal has nothing to do with hell, "eternal hell", or on the basis of the restitution of all things. The followers of the Lamb go into all the world and preach the good news on the foundation of His commands and in obedience to Him.

I have searched the Scriptures for all references to "eternal" hell and have found none. Nor have I found "everlasting death" or "eternal separation" but keep getting those nasty messages...

Your search query for 'eternal hell' have yielded no results. Please modify your search query and try again.

:pointlaugh: :myahoo: Maybe that's because it doesn't exist?

[Jon]

"In the Middle Ages, some of the lesser mystics and probably Johann Tauler and Jan van Ruysbroeck (qq.v.), and one leading scholastic, Albertus Magnus (q.v.), were Universalists."

Interesting stuff as always FineLinen, but have you any idea what "q.v." or "qq.v." stands for?

Not only are copious citations given from the ancient Universalists themselves, but abstracts and compendiums of their opinions, and testimonials as to their scholarship and saintliness, are presented from the most eminent authors who have written of them. No equal number of the church's early saints has ever received such glowing eulogies from so many scholars and critics as the ancient Universalists have extorted from such authors as Socrates....

Didn't Socrates live sometime around the 5th or 6th century BC - hence before there would've been any Christians (universalists or otherwise)?

[FineLinen]

"In the Middle Ages, some of the lesser mystics and probably Johann Tauler and Jan van Ruysbroeck (qq.v.), and one leading scholastic, Albertus Magnus (q.v.), were Universalists."

Interesting stuff as always FineLinen, but have you any idea what "q.v." or "qq.v." stands for?

Not only are copious citations given from the ancient Universalists themselves, but abstracts and compendiums of their opinions, and testimonials as to their scholarship and saintliness, are presented from the most eminent authors who have written of them. No equal number of the church's early saints has ever received such glowing eulogies from so many scholars and critics as the ancient Universalists have extorted from such authors as Socrates....

Didn't Socrates live sometime around the 5th or 6th century BC - hence before there would've been any Christians (universalists or otherwise)?

q.v.=

http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutother/quod

Socrates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates

Jon: You are absolutely correct...Socrates lived a number of centuries prior to the Christian Church. 

[arup]

Not only are copious citations given from the ancient Universalists themselves, but abstracts and compendiums of their opinions, and testimonials as to their scholarship and saintliness, are presented from the most eminent authors who have written of them. No equal number of the church's early saints has ever received such glowing eulogies from so many scholars and critics as the ancient Universalists have extorted from such authors as Socrates....

The Socrates referred to by JW Hanson in this quote is not the famous Greek philosopher, but rather a church historian known as Socrates Scholasticus...

See link below:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.toc.html

[FineLinen]

The Socrates referred to by J.W. Hanson in this quote is not the famous Greek philosopher, but rather a church historian known as Socrates Scholasticus...

See link below:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.toc.html

Well, my friend, one can learn something new and exciting every day. Much thanks for the information!

Who Is Socrates Scholasticus...

HERE

[Jon]

q.v.=

http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutother/quod

That answers quite neatly my query on q.v. - thanks.

Was the additional use of qq.v. in the same text just a typo do you think, or could it have a meaning different from (albeit perhaps similar to) that of q.v.?

[martincisneros]

If Universalism were true and it were equally true that there is no eternal hell, Christian zeal would not be necessary. 

So, the only reason a cat uses a litter box is the fear of lethal injection; the only reason a child obeys it's parents is because otherwise they could be given up for adoption, sold into prostitution, or genuinely murdered by their parents, eh?  Police dogs do all that they do every single day to preserve life and to find drug smugglers, because otherwise, it's straight to the pound for an immediate execution!  Children go to school [every single day from Monday thru Friday] and participate in class discussion and in the physical education class, because otherwise their teachers and fellow classmates would get burned alive by the Fire Department, eh?  Students get a perfect score on a test to avoid the firing squad, eh?

And, I guess that Origen, George MacDonald, and Benjamin Rush, and other noted Universalists only did what they did for the betterment of humanity and regarding their own sanctification in Christ, because you know how God is: He'll kill you, cook you, eat you, and then crap you out for all of eternity otherwise!

[dockeen]

Its funny (strange) how the words "Good News" have lost their power at times.

The "Good News" that I presume all of us would like to tell as many people as possible,
to yell from the highest hills.  That God is a loving, merciful, wonderful person to hang
out with and work for.  Someone you will want with all of your heart, soul and mind to
please.

Not some jealous guy who created a rigged game that he knew most would lose at,
and for those losers, who played the game for an infinitesimal fraction of time, their lovely
parting gift is an eternity of torment.

Wayne