Tentmaker Forum

Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation => Arguments Against Universal Salvation => Topic started by: Josh Crowell on February 04, 2018, 12:51:10 AM

Title: Michael Jeshurun - A perfect example of Calvinist hypocrisy
Post by: Josh Crowell on February 04, 2018, 12:51:10 AM
https://michaeljeshurun.wordpress.com/

This man is one of the most evangelical Calvinists out there. Just read some of his things and you see that his doctrines are all based on private interpretations. These people just can't accept why God would save someone who committed evil during their short life on earth, and would rather listen to their screams of agony and cries for mercy for ALL ETERNITY, even though God created them knowing the sins they would commit from the very beginning. They believe God ordained for them to die in their sin and burn in hell from the foundation of the world as part of his divine plan, which just shows how cruel their God is. They believe their God would rather let the unrighteous remain unrighteous forever, even though in his omnipotence, he obviously has the power to make them learn righteousness in judgment. According to Calvinist doctrine, God can make them righteous, he just doesn't want to, he prefers to watch people suffer instead. This kind of doctrine makes hearts cold and hard!

https://michaeljeshurun.wordpress.com/2016/01/22/the-world-of-gods-elect/
Where did this guy get this from? "World of the Elect"? There's the WORLD and there's the ELECT. Let me show you a verse I just love:
Quote1 John 2:1-2(KJV)
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Who are the "little children" John is talking to? Obviously believers of Christ, maybe not all of them elect, but Jesus talks about the "little ones" when referring to his TRUE believers. When you become one of Christs, you become "AS LITTLE CHILDREN". Christ's sacrifice was not just for them, but for the WHOLE WORLD. It doesn't just say world here, either. It says WHOLE world. Let scripture interpret scripture here:
QuoteRevelation 2:19(KJV)
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Satan deceives the WHOLE WORLD. Are there two worlds, an elect world and a secular world? No, the elect are in the world, just not OF the world. "Not of the world" meaning they do not love the material things of the world over God. There is the world, and there is the elect. The KINGDOM OF GOD is in the elect, but he never calls it THE WORLD, and ESPECIALLY not the WHOLE world.
We are supposed to LOVE the people of the world. If God chooses a small few who he saves by his own sovereign will, and the rest he chooses to burn for eternity, then God is essentially handing over almost everybody to Satan! This would make God a liar and the DECEIVER HIMSELF for saying he sent Jesus to save the world, but predestine the world to be eternally tortured. If Satan is going to burn in hell himself, and his mission is to drag as many people down with him, then God must want there to be an eternal testament to Satan's victory? If this is God's will, I don't want to worship him. I would rather burn in Hell. And don't tell me that I send myself to Hell, because we cannot deny the fact that God is sovereign over his creations, lest we put man's will above God's.

This man is a KJV only preacher. I quoted verses from the KJV above, because I wanted to prove a point that the truth of universal salvation still stands in many places, despite the corruption in this flawed translation. Look at what he posted here:
https://michaeljeshurun.wordpress.com/2017/07/14/the-kjv-it-ruleth/
The KJV ruleth? Who told you that? The Holy Ghost? Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about God inspiring a bunch of translators in the 15th century to make a perfect English bible. Psalm 12:7 does say that God's word will be preserved, but does that mean that God Almighty himself will adopt any change or error a lowly man makes? Of course not. And obviously somebody's never done their research on the history of the KJV, how the translators were influenced by religious tradition, the Latin Vulgate and other early, inaccurate translations. These KJV only preachers are not humble like little children as Jesus commanded us to be. They are SELF-RIGHTEOUS, just like the Pharisees of Jesus' time. They think they have some kind of authority, because they believe that God has chosen them as his elect. How do they know? They are not God! Read this bit that Jeshurun wrote in his post linked above:
QuoteI am not interested in debates and arguments on Bible versions. If you post any comment below against THIS Bible or try to advise me of another then I will be compelled to delete that comment and if you persist even block you!
Does this sound humble to you? He is proud of his KJV Bible, and has made it an IDOL. And he doesn't want to hear anybody challenge his beliefs. There's even more, look at this:
QuoteBUT WHERE, OH WHERE, DEAR BROTHER OR SISTER, DID YOU EVER GET THE IDEA THAT IT IS UP TO YOU TO DECIDE WHICH BIBLE VERSION YOU WILL RECEIVE AS GOD'S HOLY WORD?
That's exactly what you did, Mr. Jeshurun. You DECIDED you would receive the KJV. But of course you'd tell me that GOD gave you the KJV and TOLD YOU IT IS THE ONE TRUE TRANSLATION!
QuoteWhen I read a portion of Scripture from the KJV, it is so grand and glorious and full of majesty, it just motivates me to memorize it and quote it verbatim with the reference! NONE of the modern versions challenge me thus! In fact every preacher whom I have known either personally, or through their writings who were 'mighty in the Scriptures' were all KJV men!
Grand and glorious and full of majesty? Sure, I love this kind of ancient sounding language too, but preservation of the word and it's meaning is more important. This is why I choose the YLT. It has both.

Also, I'd like to mention this man was once a Satanist. And I don't mean those silly atheist groups like Anton LaVey's Church of Satan that use Satan as a poster child for human rights. I mean a real Satanist who practiced occultism, openly worshiped the Devil, burned Bibles and blasphemed God constantly. He claims he had real encounters with demons. Perhaps the spirit of Satan is still in him, just under the moniker of God now.
Quote2 Corinthians 11:13-14(YLT)
for those such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ, and no wonder--for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;
https://exsatanist.wordpress.com/

One more thing: It really disturbs me how he keeps using pictures of cute little girls to promote his sick doctrines, and likening the relationship between God and his Elect to an earthly father and his child. Is an earthly father a good influence on his children by torturing other people? Absolutely not.
Title: Re: Michael Jeshurun - A perfect example of Calvinist hypocrisy
Post by: rosered on February 04, 2018, 01:48:42 AM



Hi Josh ,

  I love your comments  and scriptures shared . proving UR .
.



  1John 2 ;27 and you, the anointing that ye did receive from him,

in you it doth remain, and ye have no need that any one may teach you,

but as the same anointing doth teach you concerning all,

and is true, and is not a lie, and even as was taught you, ye shall remain in him.


Waters  like voices are from above and below  and  being careful   what waters  we drink  , also Gods  Voice like  thunder brings  rain  as waters of Life freely   as well as  the chastening of the Lord ...

Ascribe Glory to the Lord
...2Ascribe to the LORD the glory due to His name; Worship the LORD in holy array.

3The voice of the LORD is upon the waters; The God of glory thunders, The LORD is over many waters.

4The voice of the LORD is powerful, The voice of the LORD is majestic....

Psalm 18:13
The LORD also thundered in the heavens, And the Most High uttered His voice, Hailstones and coals of fire.

Psalm 18:16
He sent from on high, He took me; He drew me out of many waters.

Taking pleasure in  any ones suffering is evil .

Jesus abolished  death , that being the hell of the old testament  Sheol/ grave .

  and as far as  the chastening of the Lord it is for our own good , and correction    as what any good parent would .

  But there would be no enjoyment in it  , Hebrews 12 .

Pray for his soul is all I can say  :sigh:
Title: Re: Michael Jeshurun - A perfect example of Calvinist hypocrisy
Post by: marie glen on February 05, 2018, 01:29:43 AM
Oh yes.. even folks not as extreme as this guy, the (ex) satanist, when some defend the doctrine (myth) of hell.. and somewhat belligerently, they seem, to me, like ice.. so very very cold. Brrrr.. kind of ironic since the topic is ppl being burned alive (forever).

A 'good father" will discipline his child, but not forever! And like Romans 3 says let.. or although all men (male and female :smile: ) be liars, untrue, unfaithful, yet He is faithful.. (true and no liar, genuine, faithful).

We shall find that His faithfulness is boundless.

A "good father" is endlessly faithful to and for ALL his children.. not merely some!

I do think the myth of an afterlife of agony and torment is a doctrine of devils and Satan has the gall to pose himself as 'god'.. It is only Yhvh's faithfulness that is reaching for and loves and even accepts and continue's to woo, those who have fallen under the spell of it. And most I believe will be very happy to find out the truth. We could hope all but, idk.. Only He knows..

But it sure is a sad gospel that gets presented to the world.. Instead of the full and glorious Glad Tidings To All..

...Something I've been thinking lately though that the myth allowed to blossom surely does, ultimately? deeply imprint upon every psyche the horrible potential of sin.. Besides the rather sad witness of history that is.

   :Peace2: and :welcome: to the 'tent'!
Title: Re: Michael Jeshurun - A perfect example of Calvinist hypocrisy
Post by: JamesH on February 14, 2018, 06:01:48 AM
He won't debate because any scholar with the knowledge and understanding of Biblical Languages and Textual Criticism would crush his KJVO position and some scholars have. They don't have a leg to stand on.

Of course these are the types that probably think that Gail Riplinger and Sam Gipp are top notch scholars :laugh:
Title: Re: Michael Jeshurun - A perfect example of Calvinist hypocrisy
Post by: rosered on February 14, 2018, 01:04:30 PM
Quote from: marie glen on February 05, 2018, 01:29:43 AM
Oh yes.. even folks not as extreme as this guy, the (ex) satanist, when some defend the doctrine (myth) of hell.. and somewhat belligerently, they seem, to me, like ice.. so very very cold. Brrrr.. kind of ironic since the topic is ppl being burned alive (forever).

A 'good father" will discipline his child, but not forever! And like Romans 3 says let.. or although all men (male and female :smile: ) be liars, untrue, unfaithful, yet He is faithful.. (true and no liar, genuine, faithful).

We shall find that His faithfulness is boundless.

A "good father" is endlessly faithful to and for ALL his children.. not merely some!

I do think the myth of an afterlife of agony and torment is a doctrine of devils and Satan has the gall to pose himself as 'god'.. It is only Yhvh's faithfulness that is reaching for and loves and even accepts and continue's to woo, those who have fallen under the spell of it. And most I believe will be very happy to find out the truth. We could hope all but, idk.. Only He knows..

But it sure is a sad gospel that gets presented to the world.. Instead of the full and glorious Glad Tidings To All..

...Something I've been thinking lately though that the myth allowed to blossom surely does, ultimately? deeply imprint upon every psyche the horrible potential of sin.. Besides the rather sad witness of history that is.

   :Peace2: and :welcome: to the 'tent'!

  Great post Marie !

  I   always wondered how they would    ''glory ''  in revenge  against  ''evil ''  also .       To punish unrepentant sinners forever burning in a torment  though    seems  HARSH  and down right cruel  , I began to question is Jesus really like that ? , and that was when the chains
fell off  and the scales  from   my  blinded eyes  began to see the light and  heal with salve :sigh:
 
How can Jesus tell me to love my enemies and  pray for them and yet he would punish His enemies forever  made no sense at all ...

This was the beginning of the UR message , my sister Shelia told me of  , that I had never heard of before , I now know the law of  sin  = death  was to expose   sin , but   was stuck in sin without a Savior  , the Jesus preached was to  small  to save
all  , but just a few   !!!!    :sigh:    How do you deal with sin that was another  story all together , some how  it was up to us to save ourselves    :eek:  I could never ever measure up to that  task  and did not know the scriptures what so ever  , but trusted in   knowledgeable men to    tell me what to do  to save me    :doh:

  Finding out that was the whole problem !!!!!  FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN GOD ..

  To use fear though is     showing the ''babes ''   in spiritual immaturity   is  a   beginning  of wisdom  none the less.

  Jude mentions some save ''with fear ,''  it is a start  and we  all ''start '' by being carnally minded babes  and  another scripture says ,  God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

  Sin was a big deal , but Salvation is of the LORD    was an even BIGGER  DEAL   with great HOPE  alive  in it ...  With a whole lot of moving and a shaking going on within  our walls of salvation  . :dsunny:

 
I do believe  it is a matter of perspective   being the art of drawing solid objects on a two-dimensional surface so as to give the right impression of their height, width, depth, and position in relation to each other when viewed from a particular point.
"a perspective drawing"
2.
a particular attitude toward or way of regarding something; a point of view.

Learning to separate   the earthly   minded   from the heavenly  minded   thoughts  and reasoning is a life long  ''practice ''  in  listening  by   hearing the Sprint s voice  above all else   and having faith  in Gods promises  ,to Do as He  says , He Will and waiting on the LORD  ,Which is more difficult to do ,than it is to say  . , for sure .:laughing7:

Love you sis  Marie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: JamesH on February 14, 2018, 06:01:48 AM
He won't debate because any scholar with the knowledge and understanding of Biblical Languages and Textual Criticism would crush his KJVO position and some scholars have. They don't have a leg to stand on.

Of course these are the types that probably think that Gail Riplinger and Sam Gipp are top notch scholars :laugh:

Hi James ,  I can only see this now as men glorying in men    :Chinscratch:
  It has a glory  in it   with high renown or honor won by notable achievements. and a certain pride in   those achievements 

The flattery    of ''power over the people '' , that do not know any better   but trust in men  , they are called men pleasers    and trust in their own  carnal   wisdom    that is going by  emotions  and desires   to feel special and important  and useful  , feeding on ignorance   about God  and  being earthly sensual and  down right devilish     :dunno2: 
But what if most of it   is wood  and idols that are to be tested by     the Lord only to be burned up  as nothing but  smoke and  ashes ?

When it all said and done    , whom do you believe ???

Being convinced  God will teach you Himself and  give you the Holy Spirit  when you come to Christ  , it is really taking up your cross   and following Him   , He puts the hunger and thirst for the REAL TRUTH    in your heart  to  Know God   for real 
without any  ulterior motives by to Love  one another like HE DOES   , TO  KNOW HIM IS TO LOVE HIM  :HeartThrob:
and once you tasted Gods goodness it is somthing you  never want to live without any longer  , He fills the darkness  and the void inside us   with His Light    , His Word    fills us with   Hope and peace and joy    is the ultimate goal  or reward
 
Jesus is the  truth   and great reward  and  mostly ,  asking Him to never leave you  alone  again  like before He come  to save that which was lost  and cowardly and fearful and on a broad path of destruction, because   in confession  , I did look for earthly things to fill that void in my heart  when I was young  and was never   satisfied  and always needy  and worse off .
Than went looking for God   in religion  , thinking He was there       and become trapped in a prison  of hatred , no matter how hard you tried  to glory in the flesh it was fruitless  and meaningless   and scary  .. I could never measure up to the demands  asked  to perform and they felt  unnatural   and fake , trying to be something   I was not  and that was Holy before God ...

Who was I fooling , myself ? and others  in appearing holy before man , so self righteous   ?

  God knew my heart   and it was sinful and  become even worse off than before when  just being myself  , which was awful  :sigh:

   Honestly   being in a bad way  , I hated life and   everything in it , including  myself  , especially   self destruction , sins and errors was overwhelming !!       you just got to give up   and start over  , every day is a new day to try and  do what is right in Gods sight  , God was watching   everything in the world     and was a part of that   worldly wisdom .

That is when you bow the knee to Jesus  and surrender all   .. just like dead man  walking  aimlessly   to the ground  , the last stumble of defeat . and cry out to God in so much pain and torment  and suffering loss after loss  after loss  , till you are nothing  , you just want it to end   .
  Oh But God in His mercy  , you got to that place ! and there is great truth in those whom are forgiven much do love much  and a graceful , grateful heart  is  able to  finally receive the things of God filling you up ,  when you are done hating everything ... and death  and evil are behind you finally  , you just keep  on keeping on , walking and  running  and leave those elemental  things   like dead works behind you   all you got from them was more death  ,nothingness  , Keep on  Looking to Jesus for your every need  in sincerity    with an honest  , clean  heart as possible that be in you .and your new Life in Christ begins a new and better Day  than before you knew   Gods love and mercy and   sweet  amazing grace  .GOD  is able  , what is impossible with mankind is possible with God .

Look to Jesus , ask Him , knock  , seek , listen for His voice  and Live .. Faith comes by hearing  Him wispier in your ear  first  , before you  see   Him or understand what is happening  yet .
  It is the true start of  somthing  big on the horizon .The horizon or skyline is the apparent line that separates earth from sky.
Title: Re: Michael Jeshurun - A perfect example of Calvinist hypocrisy
Post by: marie glen on February 15, 2018, 05:55:37 AM
Amen Rose❣️ We all have our own journey the Lord has brought us on.. The Lord bringing us to Himself, so we realize we can be taught by Him.. "take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for My burden is light" - yep, it's His burden that's light.. humans seem to love to make a rule, a burden for others.. makes them feel important..

It seems very human for people to heap up teachers for their selves. Which goes along pretty well, I guess, with other people heaping up folllwers for their selves. I've always felt a great church group would be where the group shares.. Not some are teachers and every one else students.. Surely all are supposed to progress and all become sharers in one way or another and salt and light in ones small corner of the world.

All too often though with humans it seems to be about competition.. who has the best insight, etc.  instead of realizing all are taught of the Lord.

A lot of believers I think perhaps are content to let others tell them what the Book says, and what to believe about it. And then they progress to teaching others what they were taught. Oy.
Title: Re: Michael Jeshurun - A perfect example of Calvinist hypocrisy
Post by: rosered on February 15, 2018, 11:35:48 AM
Quote from: marie glen on February 15, 2018, 05:55:37 AM
Amen Rose❣️ We all have our own journey the Lord has brought us on.. The Lord bringing us to Himself, so we realize we can be taught by Him.. "take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for My burden is light" - yep, it's His burden that's light.. humans seem to love to make a rule, a burden for others.. makes them feel important..

It seems very human for people to heap up teachers for their selves. Which goes along pretty well, I guess, with other people heaping up folllwers for their selves. I've always felt a great church group would be where the group shares.. Not some are teachers and every one else students.. Surely all are supposed to progress and all become sharers in one way or another and salt and light in ones small corner of the world.

All too often though with humans it seems to be about competition.. who has the best insight, etc.  instead of realizing all are taught of the Lord.

A lot of believers I think perhaps are content to let others tell them what the Book says, and what to believe about it. And then they progress to teaching others what they were taught. Oy.

  Amen sis Marie  !,
   
The Bible says  encourage one another  .   Sharing the Word of God  and experiences.
We share our  faith and hope and love   with others  , in turn hoping they also can relate .

  Your right Jesus burden is LIGHT  with the knowledge of  God ,the Father :dsunny:   

I think it is easy to get burnt out   also .  Many just give up , Might be why Jesus says endure to the end many times .

Quote from: marie glen on February 15, 2018, 05:55:37 AM
Amen Rose❣️ We all have our own journey the Lord has brought us on.. The Lord bringing us to Himself, so we realize we can be taught by Him.. "take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for My burden is light" - yep, it's His burden that's light.. humans seem to love to make a rule, a burden for others.. makes them feel important..

It seems very human for people to heap up teachers for their selves. Which goes along pretty well, I guess, with other people heaping up folllwers for their selves. I've always felt a great church group would be where the group shares.. Not some are teachers and every one else students.. Surely all are supposed to progress and all become sharers in one way or another and salt and light in ones small corner of the world.

All too often though with humans it seems to be about competition.. who has the best insight, etc.  instead of realizing all are taught of the Lord.

A lot of believers I think perhaps are content to let others tell them what the Book says, and what to believe about it. And then they progress to teaching others what they were taught. Oy.

  Amen , It is the Holy Spirit teaching  and with us , Jesus says our advocate   that never leaves  us and comforts those that believe in Jesus Christ ..

Trusting in the  true and living God is  our best  defense   and really our only hope ..
The   Word warns against  competition  with one another  also  and pride comes before a fall .
  Knowledge  puffs up and love edifies  , When it is the Lord doing His works  in you , than will love remain , as all else fails the true test ...

We should always glorify God in everything  said and done ,and as if we are doing it  to the Lord , It is really what counts  in my  hopeful opinion ..
Title: Re: Michael Jeshurun - A perfect example of Calvinist hypocrisy
Post by: marie glen on February 15, 2018, 05:56:54 PM
Amen Rose!! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :friendstu:


Quote from: JamesH on February 14, 2018, 06:01:48 AM
He won't debate because any scholar with the knowledge and understanding of Biblical Languages and Textual Criticism would crush his KJVO position and some scholars have. They don't have a leg to stand on.

Of course these are the types that probably think that Gail Riplinger and Sam Gipp are top notch scholars :laugh:

I had to look up (google) who those folks are.. I'm always puzzled by the KJO idea.. like the Word(s) of God were written originally in the King's Englishe..

Welcome! | Evangelist Samuel C. Gipp, Th.D. | A Friend to Churches ...
https://samgipp.com/
Dr. Gipp has generously allowed placement of his entire book, "The Answer Book" online at Chick.com for all to read. This book answers 62 of the most commonly asked questions King James Bible critics use to attack and destroy :mshock: the faith of anyone who really believes that the King James Bible is infallible. ยป
:faint:
Title: Re: Michael Jeshurun - A perfect example of Calvinist hypocrisy
Post by: WhiteWings on February 15, 2018, 06:49:18 PM
KJV only is obvious sign of admitting defeat. They know the KJV can't survive 'attacks' so they just claim it's infallible,
Maybe Gary can releasge an UR Bible and claims it's infallible. Then UR finally is proven to be a fact.
Title: Re: Michael Jeshurun - A perfect example of Calvinist hypocrisy
Post by: eaglesway on February 19, 2018, 06:12:58 PM
That'll do it for sure  :laughing7:
Title: Re: Michael Jeshurun - A perfect example of Calvinist hypocrisy
Post by: darryl on March 01, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
yes its strange him using female children's images to promote his ideas about the KJV...creepy, actually.