Suppose we disregard what we know about God's character (1 Cor 13, 1 Jn 4: 8 ) ... is there a way to verify that Jesus used the word "kolasis" to mean punishment in Matthew 25? Does anyone know the Hebrew equivalent?
Gerry Beauchemin says the foundation of knowing that "everlasting punishment" is simply "eonian correction" is knowing that Jesus used the word Kolasis instead of Timoria (if Im not mistaken)... but to play the devil's advocate for awhile, did He really use that word?
I can only say that's what I've read, is that Jesus ONLY used that term - kolasis - temporary. There's probably an actual search of the greek interlinear that could be done. Maybe Gerry did one? :dontknow:
credit www.bibletruths.com
daywalker said:
I thought it would be a good idea to provide that one scripture in which we find the Greek word "timoria" meaning "punishment without pity".
Hebrews 10:28 Anyone repudiating Moses' law is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment [timoria], are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?
30 For we are acquainted with Him Who is saying, Mine is vengeance! I will repay! the Lord is saying, and again, "The Lord will be judging His people"
31 Fearful is it to be falling into the hands of the living God!
Notice that this particular "punishment" is directed toward believers, not the unbelieving world.
L.Ray Smith said:
Hitler, Saddam and his sons, and people like John Hagee and Dr. Kennedy who gloat over billions being tortured for all eternity, and many more just like them, will be Judged in the VERY SAME WAY THAT THEY JUDGED OTHERS (Matt. 7:1-2). Their OWN SINS, will "TORMENT them" beyond comprehension, "in the PRESENCE of the Lamb" (Rev. 14:10), when God purges their evil consciences with His spiritual "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
God be with you,
Ray
Samson said:
Also, here's an excerpt from the Greek Words defined and Usage Thread that might assist you regarding Timoria in contrast with Kolasin.
3) Kolasin: Chastisement, Root Word is Kolos and literally means "to prune" The Correction is with a view to helping the offender. Usually incorrectly rendered Punishment.Matt. 25:46 (Eonian Chastisement)4) Timoria: Punishment or Penalty; It means the vindictive character of punishment that only satisfies the inflictor of it. Acts. 4:21 ( Find no way of punishing them).PUNISHING VS. CHASTENINGWhile considering all of the hellfire and brimstone material disseminated by Christian teachers, preachers, writers, and educators around the world, just how many hundreds of times do you suppose the word "punishment" is used in the entire New Testament with regards to sinners? Hundreds? Would you believe less than fifty? Would you believe less than ten? Would you believe ONCE? That's right, the answer is one time.
"Of how much more punishment [Gk: timoria], suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:29).
I can assure you that those who have committed the above crime towards the Lord are few indeed. Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have NEVER EVEN HEARD of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden underfoot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an UNHOLY thing, and done DESPITE unto the Spirit of grace." Most have never even heard of such sins, let alone committed them.
This is a most powerful Scripture to be sure, but it does not speak of "eternal" punishment, and it is the ONLY SCRIPTURE IN THE ENTIRETY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT that uses the word "punishment" with reference to punishing sinners!
There are three other places in the KJV that the word "punish" or "punished" is used correctly. They are Acts 4:21; 22:5; and 26:11 where it Saul (later Paul) is punishing not sinners, but members of the church, the followers of Christ.
:cloud9: The first time "punish" is used in definition of the Hebrew word here.....notice it carries with it the idea of teaching and instruction.....
Strong's Number: 03256
Original Word Word Origin
roy a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Yacar TWOT - 877
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
yaw-sar' Verb
Definition
to chasten, discipline, instruct, admonish
(Qal)
to chasten, admonish
to instruct
to discipline
(Niphal) to let oneself be chastened or corrected or admonished
(Piel)
to discipline, correct
to chasten, chastise
(Hiphil) to chasten
(Nithpael) to teach
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on December 03, 2010, 05:42:47 AM
Suppose we disregard what we know about God's character (1 Cor 13, 1 Jn 4: 8 ) ... is there a way to verify that Jesus used the word "kolasis" to mean punishment in Matthew 25? Does anyone know the Hebrew equivalent?
Gerry Beauchemin says the foundation of knowing that "everlasting punishment" is simply "eonian correction" is knowing that Jesus used the word Kolasis instead of Timoria (if Im not mistaken)... but to play the devil's advocate for awhile, did He really use that word?
Yes.
Check for yourself: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat25.pdf
If punishment is anything but corrective doesn't that imply god is a sadist?
All sin is directed against God (Against you and you alone have I sinned O Lord)
If Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin (which he did) and Christians basically believe
one must accept that Christ paid for the the penalty they owed, isn't it simply a matter of UR say
Christ can be accepted after deathin this life and ET says that once you die there is no hope?
Thanks guys, and thanks WW for the pdf file...
Woe to BELIEVERS then who deliberately sin against the Spirit... :mshock: :mshock:
QuoteMine is vengeance!
Is this vengeance the same as [ORGEE] God's wrath, meaning a retribution for an offense? Meaning punishment as one deserves and nothing more?
Quote from: jabcat on December 03, 2010, 06:02:06 AM
credit www.bibletruths.com
Hebrews 10:28 Anyone repudiating Moses' law is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment [timoria], are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?
30 For we are acquainted with Him Who is saying, Mine is vengeance! I will repay! the Lord is saying, and again, "The Lord will be judging His people"
31 Fearful is it to be falling into the hands of the living God!
Notice that this particular "punishment" is directed toward believers, not the unbelieving world.
Excellent post!
This got me to thinking. Perhaps the author of Hebrews was given a revelation of those who would later preach the Blood of Jesus as a bargaining chip to whether you live or fry. How much more could you trample underfoot the Son of God when you would preach Him be the monster who would condemn women, children and ignorant men to an unimaginably cruel eternity? God is Love. Preachers today preach that He is worse than any villian that has ever walked earth (yet they claim He loved you first). Is it truly grace if you come to God out of fear of what He has planned for you if you don't? Perhaps the judgment in Hebrews 10:28-29 speaks of God's own people who would lead astray the world exchanging the Spirit of Grace and Love with a spirit of condemnation.
Thanks Brother. This is still an interesting topic. TS, regarding your question, I don't know specifically, but if we look at who's participating in Lake of Fire correction, it's not necessarily just the worst, hardest-core sinners we can possibly think of. For one, it mentions the fearful...