Is saving a co-operative process, between the one who is saving (the saviour) and the one who is being saved (the savee)? I would have to say no... its ultimately the responsibility of the saviour whether or not and whom he saves.
Example: I slip on the rocks, knock myself unconcious, and fall into the river.
I cannot save myself, infact I may not even be aware that I need to be saved (if I remain unconcious). Yet I clearly do need to be saved and will die if I am not saved.
Someone comes along, jumps into the river, and pulls me out. Did they need any help from me to save me? Did they need to ask my permission or ask if I wanted to be saved? Not likely, as I am probably still unconcious - effectively not even realizing I need to be saved.
Am I responsible at all for my own salvation if I slip and fall unconcious into the river?
Just trying to understand the correct usage of the English words "save" and "saviour".
Thoughts?
Legoman
In my opinion one of the objections christians can sometimes make or is an underlying cause for their dislike of the concept of universalism is that an unbeliever does not have to make any sacrifices, or live a clean life to reap gods benefits.
However, we have to see this in the light of unconditional love and forgiveness.
It is the very work of believers running the race and forgiving others that says "I'm willing to sacrifice my flesh for all those who will not"
Hi Paul,
In some ways I can agree with that argument, although I believe it misrepresents the truth.
Just because God will save all doesn't mean we can run around doing whatever we want sinning all over the place and then "get into" heaven. (I don't think that's what you were implying either).
This is kind of like the OSAS doctrine - once saved always saved, therefore LETS PARTY! I can sin whenever I want and still get into heaven blah blah blah...
As you said, we need to the run the race, let God transform us, and with God's help, we will enter the Kingdom - when God wants us to.
Legoman
Legoman,
I think you falling of the rocks isn't the best of examples because that just happens.
The saving part requires repentance.
I think repentance has some sort of interaction between the person and Jesus.
You can't accidently/unconcious repent.
Just a my devaluated :2c:
What happens if I live however I like?
To get back on topic:
Ignoring the spiritual importance of salvation for now, are there practical physical examples of salvation where the salvation is co-operative? ie. the saviour asks/requires permission to save the savee? I can't think of any practical examples.
For example:
1. Does a lifeguard ask the drowning swimmer if he should save him or not?
2. Does a fireman ask the little girl in a burning building if he should save her?
3. Does a policeman ask the victim of a robbery (in progress) if he needs help?
Even if the savee in the above scenario's was insane and refused help, no self-respecting lifeguard/fireman/policeman would not save the person in question, to the best of their ability.
I believe, by definition, when one saves another, no permission is required, it is completely up to the saver to save the savee. In fact, you might say the saver saves the savee against his will :winkgrin:
(hmm I now see there are 2 more replies above this already that going off topic again LOL)
I'm not so sure its quite off topic.
Maybe a better question is "What exactly is living however you like?"
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 05, 2009, 08:37:28 PM
What happens if I live however I like?
What do you mean by "however I like"? If you mean giving into sin, giving into your flesly desires, then there will be some work that needs to be done. You will learn the error of your ways, and you will eventually learn righteousness.
Then you will still live "however you like", but now the way you like to live will be in accordance with how God wants you to live.
Thats what is happening to all of us. God is giving us experience and slowly changing us from doing things according to our fleshly desires, to doing things God's way.
Legoman
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 05, 2009, 08:35:32 PM
Legoman,
I think you falling of the rocks isn't the best of examples because that just happens.
The saving part requires repentance.
I think repentance has some sort of interaction between the person and Jesus.
You can't accidently/unconcious repent.
Just a my devaluated :2c:
Hi WW,
Just to clarify, my purpose for this thread is to determine if someone can be saved without permission from the savee. We all know the mainstream doctrine:
Jesus died for the sins for the world - he is the saviour of the world - but,
but, all we have to do is accept him as our saviour.
Effectively this make us our own saviour as it is all up to us. Did Christ die in vain only hoping that someone would accept him? :winkgrin:
I don't think my example is that far off. Any example where someone is saved should make the point. The "savee" never "accepts" the salvation offered by the saviour. Effectively, the saviour says:
I'm saving you whether you like it or not! Now human saviours (ie. firefighters, lifeguards, etc) do sometimes fail. That's because they are human. I don't think God would have that problem though - would He? :Sparkletooth:
Legoman
hi legoman,
Your saying that what I said misrepresents the truth when you said this.
QuoteJust because God will save all doesn't mean we can run around doing whatever we want sinning all over the place and then "get into" heaven. (I don't think that's what you were implying either).
My question pertains to unconditional forgiveness. What if we do run around doing whatever we like? In terms of this cooperative salvation, firstfruits, Gods control, gods soveriengty I think it is an appropriate question.
Hi Paul,
Sorry I think there was some confusion - I didn't mean you were misrepresenting the truth. I'm actually a bit confused about what you were getting at?
Let me clarify my position:
A common arguement against universalism (used by mainstream Christiantiy) is that if God will save everyone, then we can all do whatever we want and still get into heaven. ie we can sin daily, as much as we want, right to the day we die, and then BOOM we are instantly in heaven.
However I believe this argument misrepresents the truth of UR (or at least my understanding of UR).
There is a process that has to occur, a change of heart, repentance, before anyone will enter the Kingdom of God. If one chooses to keep on sinning and not repenting up to the day they die, then they will awake from resurrection to find themselves being judged in the lake of fire. The lake of fire experience will then lead them to change and repent, and eventually enter the Kingdom of God.
So you can see you can't live "anyway" you want and then "get into heaven". There's only one way in - God's way - through his son Jesus - which involves a lot of change and repentance.
Cheers,
Legoman
Quote from: legoman on March 05, 2009, 09:04:38 PM
Hi WW,
Just to clarify, my purpose for this thread is to determine if someone can be saved without permission from the savee. We all know the mainstream doctrine:
I understand what the topic is.
QuoteI don't think my example is that far off. Any example where someone is saved should make the point. The "savee" never "accepts" the salvation offered by the saviour.
That kind of saving is forced upon and not mentally.
That's not what Biblical saving is about IMO
QuoteEffectively, the saviour says: I'm saving you whether you like it or not! Now human saviours (ie. firefighters, lifeguards, etc) do sometimes fail. That's because they are human. I don't think God would have that problem though - would He? :Sparkletooth:
Sure He suceeds. But without forcefully saving someone.
For me salvation is an interactive process that requires that the savee takes some action. Either by searching actively or being convinced by the saviour. The savee is not forcefully kicked into paradise.
So to summarize:
The savee makes the last step.
And everyone will make that last step.
Quotemy purpose for this thread is to determine if someone can be saved without permission from the savee.
IMO 100% impossible.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 05, 2009, 09:44:03 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 05, 2009, 09:04:38 PM
Hi WW,
Just to clarify, my purpose for this thread is to determine if someone can be saved without permission from the savee. We all know the mainstream doctrine:
I understand what the topic is.
I'm not sure... I think people are missing the topic. I'm trying to keep it focused (without much luck) on the definition of
generic (biblical or non-biblical doesn't matter) saving. ie. saving someone from a burning building or from drowning... etc.
Quote
QuoteI don't think my example is that far off. Any example where someone is saved should make the point. The "savee" never "accepts" the salvation offered by the saviour.
That kind of saving is forced upon and not mentally.
That's not what Biblical saving is about IMO
QuoteEffectively, the saviour says: I'm saving you whether you like it or not! Now human saviours (ie. firefighters, lifeguards, etc) do sometimes fail. That's because they are human. I don't think God would have that problem though - would He? :Sparkletooth:
Sure He suceeds. But without forcefully saving someone.
For me salvation is an interactive process that requires that the savee takes some action. Either by searching actively or being convinced by the saviour. The savee is not forcefully kicked into paradise.
Yes I get what you are saying. In biblical salvation, eventually, everyone will willingly want to be saved. No one will be forced.
Quote
So to summarize:
The savee makes the last step.
And everyone will make that last step.
But that last step is only by the inspiration of God - this the crux of biblical salvation - there is nothing we do of ourselves that can save ourself - it is all of God.
Quote
Quotemy purpose for this thread is to determine if someone can be saved without permission from the savee.
IMO 100% impossible.
Not sure why you say 100% impossible? Sticking with the non-biblical saving example - the fireman most definitely does not ask permission when saving someone from a burning building - he just does it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 05, 2009, 09:44:03 PM
Quotemy purpose for this thread is to determine if someone can be saved without permission from the savee.
IMO 100% impossible.
I believe it is a misunderstanding of what occurs. We as humans do not like to be forced into anything. Yet, what if someone was to save us from an occurance that we could not predict or see.
If someone in a fire is so gripped with fear and hallucinating from poisons in the smoke, they could see the fireman as a monster. Does the fireman ask permission?
This is taking a leap and saying talking about situations that are 100% known. There is no question what a fireman must do with every ounce of his ability.
Now on another level, does God kick someone into paradise and then they come to love that paradise, or has God patterned life in preparation to our accepting that this (john 6:44) drawing is inevitable? In essence we are forced, but through the perfect knowledge of whats right.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 05, 2009, 10:07:18 PM
I believe it is a misunderstanding of what occurs. We as humans do not like to be forced into anything. Yet, what if someone was to save us from an occurance that we could not predict or see.
If someone in a fire is so gripped with fear and hallucinating from poisons in the smoke, they could see the fireman as a monster. Does the fireman ask permission?
In that case the fireman might resort to punching out the person, so that he could properly save them without interference. A little extra temporary pain for long-term good. Ever had God knock you out for your own good? :winkgrin:
Quote
This is taking a leap and saying talking about situations that are 100% known. There is no question what a fireman must do with every ounce of his ability.
Yes these are hypotheticals and there are lots of situations where a fireman cannot save someone due to circumstances beyond his control. But when it comes to God, nothing is beyond his control - he is the ultimate saviour.
Quote
Now on another level, does God kick someone into paradise and then they come to love that paradise, or has God patterned life in preparation to our accepting that this (john 6:44) drawing is inevitable? In essence we are forced, but through the perfect knowledge of whats right.
"Forced" or "influenced"? Same thing?
This word "forced" is a tricky concept. If God tied our arms up and pushed us into heaven while we kick and scream, you might say you were forced into heaven, but you didn't really want to go.
But what about if God surrounds you with his love, shows you the error of your ways, shows you humility, shows you the wonderous beauty of his plan, and then you decide to follow Him. Were you forced? Well you weren't going to follow him until God did all that great stuff. So God did influence you... hm influenced/forced - same thing?
So maybe its a question of positive or negative reinforcement - either way though God is going to save you.
Anyway back to my OP, what I have been hoping to show or determine is that a saviour will save, and its not up to the savee to decide if that happens or not - the savior is the one who is in control.
Cheers,
Legoman
Quote from: legoman on March 05, 2009, 10:21:33 PM
Anyway back to my OP, what I have been hoping to show or determine is that a saviour will save, and its not up to the savee to decide if that happens or not - the savior is the one who is in control.
Just wondering, I am not sure how this is off topic, if God cannot influence or force us to do anything against our will then it does affect what your trying to demonstrate.
If this line of reasoning is annoying I will back out of the thread as I won't spoil things for you, but would have to disagree that they are off topic.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 05, 2009, 10:29:52 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 05, 2009, 10:21:33 PM
Anyway back to my OP, what I have been hoping to show or determine is that a saviour will save, and its not up to the savee to decide if that happens or not - the savior is the one who is in control.
Just wondering, I am not sure how this is off topic, if God cannot influence or force us to do anything against our will then it does affect what your trying to demonstrate.
If this line of reasoning is annoying I will back out of the thread as I won't spoil things for you, but would have to disagree that they are off topic.
Oh no problem Paul. I think I was defining my "on-topic" too narrowly so carry on. :bigGrin:
So I'm trying to understand what you are suggesting - are you saying God cannot influence or force us to do anything against our will?
I suppose I would agree with that.
However would you also consider that it is very easy for God to
change our will? Then he can influence us to do something that is
not against our will? (where as previously it would have been against our will)
Legoman
Well, I'm not trying to promote my thoughts as they must be right, but in order to provoke conversation in the thread.
I'm suggesting that God does what it takes in the sense of how we can understand it. It is not so much an issue of forcing as often the word is used in a negative aspect.
The Christian argument "God does not force us to do anything" is a perspective that they know there are people who die not professing to accept christ. So in their doctrinal perspective, "all being saved" would be a forcing of someone to accept christ under duress.
In reality, we are forced in the sense that Jesus pointed out "they know not what they do" But that forcing ultimatly wins them over?
I know in my own life, in a sense I was forced to change how I thought in the light of seeing plain truth, I did not like how I felt about that at the time, but now I have been won over to see its positive aspects.
I think the largest issue to over come with people is the idea of this taking place after death. Or perhaps, there are things at the point of death that we cannot perceive that happen between a person and God.
Quote from: legoman on March 05, 2009, 09:55:59 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 05, 2009, 09:44:03 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 05, 2009, 09:04:38 PM
Hi WW,
Just to clarify, my purpose for this thread is to determine if someone can be saved without permission from the savee. We all know the mainstream doctrine:
I understand what the topic is.
I'm not sure... I think people are missing the topic. I'm trying to keep it focused (without much luck) on the definition of generic (biblical or non-biblical doesn't matter) saving. ie. saving someone from a burning building or from drowning... etc.
Quote
QuoteI don't think my example is that far off. Any example where someone is saved should make the point. The "savee" never "accepts" the salvation offered by the saviour.
That kind of saving is forced upon and not mentally.
That's not what Biblical saving is about IMO
QuoteEffectively, the saviour says: I'm saving you whether you like it or not! Now human saviours (ie. firefighters, lifeguards, etc) do sometimes fail. That's because they are human. I don't think God would have that problem though - would He? :Sparkletooth:
Sure He suceeds. But without forcefully saving someone.
For me salvation is an interactive process that requires that the savee takes some action. Either by searching actively or being convinced by the saviour. The savee is not forcefully kicked into paradise.
Yes I get what you are saying. In biblical salvation, eventually, everyone will willingly want to be saved. No one will be forced.
Quote
So to summarize:
The savee makes the last step.
And everyone will make that last step.
But that last step is only by the inspiration of God - this the crux of biblical salvation - there is nothing we do of ourselves that can save ourself - it is all of God.
Quote
Quotemy purpose for this thread is to determine if someone can be saved without permission from the savee.
IMO 100% impossible.
Not sure why you say 100% impossible? Sticking with the non-biblical saving example - the fireman most definitely does not ask permission when saving someone from a burning building - he just does it.
I understand what you are trying to do with your focus of the question.
Perhaps part of the problem is with our somewhat limited definition of salvation. At least in some senses, there are degrees of salvation, and I think most of us recognize that it is a process as well.
Quote from: Doc on March 05, 2009, 11:06:38 PM
I understand what you are trying to do with your focus of the question.
Perhaps part of the problem is with our somewhat limited definition of salvation. At least in some senses, there are degrees of salvation, and I think most of us recognize that it is a process as well.
Yes good point about degrees of salvation. Are we saved now? Are we saved when we die? Are the unbelievers saved now or only when they emerge from the lake of fire?
The main thing to know is that God will save us all - and its up to him to do it - not us. IMHO mainstream christianity makes another big error there - ie. Jesus can only save us if we allow him to, and if we don't allow Him to, then we won't be saved.
But God can work all circumstances so that each person will come to Jesus on their own terms, precisely when God decides. God influences all and God will save all - on his timeline.
Legoman
Quote from: legoman on March 05, 2009, 11:14:33 PM
Quote from: Doc on March 05, 2009, 11:06:38 PM
I understand what you are trying to do with your focus of the question.
Perhaps part of the problem is with our somewhat limited definition of salvation. At least in some senses, there are degrees of salvation, and I think most of us recognize that it is a process as well.
Yes good point about degrees of salvation. Are we saved now? Are we saved when we die? Are the unbelievers saved now or only when they emerge from the lake of fire?
The main thing to know is that God will save us all - and its up to him to do it - not us. IMHO mainstream christianity makes another big error there - ie. Jesus can only save us if we allow him to, and if we don't allow Him to, then we won't be saved.
But God can work all circumstances so that each person will come to Jesus on their own terms, precisely when God decides. God influences all and God will save all - on his timeline.
Legoman
Yes, and seeing the end of our salvation is something that probably most of us will not have happen until after we physically die. I think there have been just a few examples, Enoch and Elijah IIRC, that probably saw the end of their salvation before they passed from this life.
I believe it is still possible for some of us to be 'translated', if we are enabled to allow God's life to fill us that completely before we stop living in these flesh bodies.
But yes, we all came from God and we will all return to Him, one way or another. His word does not return to Him void. :cloud9:
Here are all the definitions of "save" I could find at dictionary.reference.com:
1. to rescue from danger or possible harm, injury, or loss: to save someone from drowning.
2. to keep safe, intact, or unhurt; safeguard; preserve: God save the king.
3. to keep from being lost: to save the game.
4. to avoid the spending, consumption, or waste of: to save fuel.
5. to keep, as for reuse: to save leftovers for tomorrow's dinner.
6. to set aside, reserve, or lay by: to save money.
7. to treat carefully in order to reduce wear, fatigue, etc.: to save one's eyes by reading under proper light.
8. to prevent the occurrence, use, or necessity of; obviate: to come early in order to save waiting.
9. Theology. to deliver from the power and consequences of sin.
10. Computers. to copy (a file) from RAM onto a disk or other storage medium.
11. Sports. to stop (a ball or puck) from entering one's goal.
–verb (used without object)
12. to lay up money as the result of economy or thrift.
13. to be economical in expenditure.
14. to preserve something from harm, injury, loss, etc.
15. to admit of being kept without spoiling, as food.
–noun
16. an act or instance of saving, esp. in sports.
17. Baseball. a statistical credit given a relief pitcher for preserving a team's victory by holding its lead in a game.
Not all of these may apply directly, but they do give a good idea of what our saviour Jesus will do for us: rescue from harm, keep safe, keep from being lost, not waste, preserve from injury, not spoil, deliver from sin.
Note that not one of these definitions specify that the object being saved has any control over its salvation. Perhaps I misnamed my thread. Saving is co-operative in that there are two parties involved. However the real question is: Is the savee in control of his own salvation?
Legoman
Quote from: legoman on March 05, 2009, 11:39:34 PM
Here are all the definitions of "save" I could find at dictionary.reference.com:
1. to rescue from danger or possible harm, injury, or loss: to save someone from drowning.
2. to keep safe, intact, or unhurt; safeguard; preserve: God save the king.
3. to keep from being lost: to save the game.
4. to avoid the spending, consumption, or waste of: to save fuel.
5. to keep, as for reuse: to save leftovers for tomorrow's dinner.
6. to set aside, reserve, or lay by: to save money.
7. to treat carefully in order to reduce wear, fatigue, etc.: to save one's eyes by reading under proper light.
8. to prevent the occurrence, use, or necessity of; obviate: to come early in order to save waiting.
9. Theology. to deliver from the power and consequences of sin.
10. Computers. to copy (a file) from RAM onto a disk or other storage medium.
11. Sports. to stop (a ball or puck) from entering one's goal.
–verb (used without object)
12. to lay up money as the result of economy or thrift.
13. to be economical in expenditure.
14. to preserve something from harm, injury, loss, etc.
15. to admit of being kept without spoiling, as food.
–noun
16. an act or instance of saving, esp. in sports.
17. Baseball. a statistical credit given a relief pitcher for preserving a team's victory by holding its lead in a game.
Not all of these may apply directly, but they do give a good idea of what our saviour Jesus will do for us: rescue from harm, keep safe, keep from being lost, not waste, preserve from injury, not spoil, deliver from sin.
Note that not one of these definitions specify that the object being saved has any control over its salvation. Perhaps I misnamed my thread. Saving is co-operative in that there are two parties involved. However the real question is: Is the savee in control of his own salvation?
Legoman
It would seem plain to me from the scripture that we are not in control of it. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. So we don't start it, and we don't complete it. All that is left is for us to "accept" it.
So . . .could we then say that repentance does not bring salvation . .that already exists whether repentance is there or not . . .but that repentance "activates" that salvation in us?
How does that fit for ya?
If you take a step outside of time, then our salvation is a done deal. We will all be saved... as part of that process we will all repent.
Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
We only repent because God's goodness leads us to repent.
All part of God's plan - so whether we are saved now or later, its a done deal.
There is a worship song that's been a favorite of the church for some time now that just sort of jumped out at me the other day . . .
Ya'll heard of the song called "Come"?
it goes like . . .
Come, now is the time to worship . . .Come, now is the time to give your heart . .
Come, just as you are and worship . . Come, just as you are before your God . . .
It's the chorus that got me . . .I never saw this in all the years I've sung it . . .
One day every tongue will confess you are God . . .
One day every knee will bow . . .
but STILL THE GREATEST TREASURE, REMAINS FOR THOSE
WHO GLADLY CHOOSE YOU NOW . . ..
Churches have been singing a song of universal reconciliation for years without even realizing it.
Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 08:44:48 PM
Churches have been singing a song of universal reconciliation for years without even realizing it.
True, but I wonder how that some goes through some minds. I have not met one christian yet who won't say "yeah all will bow and confess" but then the punch line... "but their realization comes too late"
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 09:04:17 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 08:44:48 PM
Churches have been singing a song of universal reconciliation for years without even realizing it.
True, but I wonder how that some goes through some minds. I have not met one christian yet who won't say "yeah all will bow and confess" but then the punch line... "but their realization comes too late"
My sister says that they will, but it will be because they are forced to realize that . . .against their will . . .
Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 09:53:08 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 09:04:17 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 08:44:48 PM
Churches have been singing a song of universal reconciliation for years without even realizing it.
True, but I wonder how that some goes through some minds. I have not met one christian yet who won't say "yeah all will bow and confess" but then the punch line... "but their realization comes too late"
My sister says that they will, but it will be because they are forced to realize that . . .against their will . . .
But I thought God never "forces" anyone against their will!?!? :winkgrin:
Oh, but he does . ..sends them to hell forever . .against their will . . .forces them to admit that Jesus is the winner and all that . .
what . . .you actually thought God was really Love????
Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 08:44:48 PM
There is a worship song that's been a favorite of the church for some time now that just sort of jumped out at me the other day . . .
Ya'll heard of the song called "Come"?
it goes like . . .
Come, now is the time to worship . . .Come, now is the time to give your heart . .
Come, just as you are and worship . . Come, just as you are before your God . . .
It's the chorus that got me . . .I never saw this in all the years I've sung it . . .
One day every tongue will confess you are God . . .
One day every knee will bow . . .
but STILL THE GREATEST TREASURE, REMAINS FOR THOSE
WHO GLADLY CHOOSE YOU NOW . . ..
Churches have been singing a song of universal reconciliation for years without even realizing it.
That's awesome, Nate! I was just thinking the very same thing when we were doing that song in church a few weeks back!
That's what is so hilariously frustrating about seeing the truth of UR. ET churches preach and sing about it all the time without even realizing it! It's right under their noses and they don't see it!
One Sunday a few weeks back, our pastor gave a really great sermon. I very nearly walked up to him afterward and said; "great sermon, pastor, we'll make a universalist of you yet... :laughing7:
The Scriptures are clear that salvation is a cooperative process. That's why Jesus was appointed as High Priest over God's Word to bring it to pass in our lives when we stand upon it unwaveringly in faith and love. Salvation is more than the remittance of sin and reconciliation with God. It includes healing, prosperity, and anything else that we'd need in order to accomplish all of the plans of God for our lives and in the behalf of all of humanity. We're not only free to claim our own salvation, but also that of the entire world. It's wonderful to stand in agreement with Lord Jesus for the salvation of the whole world and to watch Him bring to pass that aspect of God's Word that we're standing unwaveringly on in faith and love.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 03, 2009, 08:18:07 AM
The Scriptures are clear that salvation is a cooperative process. That's why Jesus was appointed as High Priest over God's Word to bring it to pass in our lives when we stand upon it unwaveringly in faith and love. Salvation is more than the remittance of sin and reconciliation with God. It includes healing, prosperity, and anything else that we'd need in order to accomplish all of the plans of God for our lives and in the behalf of all of humanity. We're not only free to claim our own salvation, but also that of the entire world. It's wonderful to stand in agreement with Lord Jesus for the salvation of the whole world and to watch Him bring to pass that aspect of God's Word that we're standing unwaveringly on in faith and love.
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: legoman on March 05, 2009, 08:31:52 PM
Hi Paul,
In some ways I can agree with that argument, although I believe it misrepresents the truth.
Just because God will save all doesn't mean we can run around doing whatever we want sinning all over the place and then "get into" heaven. (I don't think that's what you were implying either).
This is kind of like the OSAS doctrine - once saved always saved, therefore LETS PARTY! I can sin whenever I want and still get into heaven blah blah blah...
As you said, we need to the run the race, let God transform us, and with God's help, we will enter the Kingdom - when God wants us to.
Legoman
This is the reason why paul was angry at the church when they was lazy and doing evil thing because they knew they will be saved and Paul called them a idiot (sorry, my word but I bet paul was thinking that :laughing7:) anyway, no, I knew I will be saved but that doesn't mean I can do whatever I want to sin all the time! No, I want follow the example of christ because why? I believe in good and love, not evil god show me what is evil and wrong is, I never like them at all!
Because of what you wish for, you will be test by the fire of God, the more sins is there, the more painful is going to be to be taking the sins out, the less is it, the less painful is it.
Quote from: legoman on March 05, 2009, 07:20:05 PM
Is saving a co-operative process, between the one who is saving (the saviour) and the one who is being saved (the savee)? I would have to say no... its ultimately the responsibility of the saviour whether or not and whom he saves.
Example: I slip on the rocks, knock myself unconcious, and fall into the river.
I cannot save myself, infact I may not even be aware that I need to be saved (if I remain unconcious). Yet I clearly do need to be saved and will die if I am not saved.
Someone comes along, jumps into the river, and pulls me out. Did they need any help from me to save me? Did they need to ask my permission or ask if I wanted to be saved? Not likely, as I am probably still unconcious - effectively not even realizing I need to be saved.
Am I responsible at all for my own salvation if I slip and fall unconcious into the river?
Just trying to understand the correct usage of the English words "save" and "saviour".
Thoughts?
Legoman
I kindof look at it as were responsible to make a "choice" in a sense, but its a choice we were designed to make EASILY (with no sin or anything hindering us ideally). that choice is not limited to THIS life though, and people will make that "choice" when they see God in all his glory at the end of the ages I think...i think this is what "every knee shall bow, every tounge shall confess" is refering to...that moment when all who havent accepted...will.
its what we were designed for...we were ALL designed to be with and love him...he doesnt "force" it but he designed us for that ultimate meaning, that ultimate reconcilliation.
so thats my :2c:
Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 08:23:45 PM
So . . .could we then say that repentance does not bring salvation . .that already exists whether repentance is there or not . . .but that repentance "activates" that salvation in us?
How does that fit for ya?
Repentance does activate salvation for us very often. You don't want that particular weed growing in your heart, so you stop watering it and start yanking on it to throw it out. Some things you might want to dig out have enormously deep roots/tentacles and you're yanking on that puppy for the longest time and squirming the whole time 'cause ya wanna get this crop of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit growing. But this other crap has to be thrown out, or it'll try to either choke out the good stuff or try to hybridize it. Repentance is the light switch.
A lot of people try to say that it's God that has to do it for us. No, He complained too many times in the prophets that people were sitting on their hands and waiting on Him and not doing what they needed to do. "Is it
not time to build My house?
Is it time to build your houses??" -- the obvious implication being "Who is really first priority and final authority here??" God may yell at you or try to romance you into throwing that switch, but you're still the one that ultimately turns the switch on/off. If My people who are called by My Name shall humble themselves and pray and seek my face, then will I hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.(2Chronicles 7:14)
Many times when nothing else is working in my life, I start scrutinizing my mind, heart, and flesh over the repentance issue and the standards of God's promises and provisions and I start asking myself the serious questions related to whether or not I've wandered into trying to be my own provider again or whether He's still my God. And it'll usually, after all of these years, wind up being the teeniest adjustment in my thinking or what I've slipped into saying with everybody else, and then
boom! The power starts flowing again after the transformer has been repaired.
More than once, I've had my body SUDDENLY line up QUICKLY after a very thorough repenting of having touched God's anointed in having had a slip of the tongue about another man of God that I didn't agree with. When I'm being 100% honest and seeking God and nothing else is occuring to me, then I ask the Holy Spirit to show me where I've missed it 'cause I'm obviously still clueless after having gone into every closet in my heart, mind, and body about the issue. And every once in a while someone's face will come before me that I had a slip of the tongue or of the keyboard about and the following dialogue will inevitably go along with it:
God: Is that man your servant?
Martin: No
God: Am I able to make him stand or fall?
Martin: Yes
God: He's standing, so guess what?!
Martin: I'm repenting of having touched Your anointed.
God: :Sparkletooth:
and then here comes the healing of my body, the badly needed check in the mail or cash being passed to me in public "out of the blue," my reconciliation with all of Creation and animals are speaking with me again with clarity, or whatever else I was dealing with will straighten out. And obviously, if that wasn't the only issue that was unresolved in my life, then I'm still digging until things are straightened out between me and God. And for me, most often, it'll wind up being that I was sinning by carrying cares for my life, having thought for the morrow, or in some other way not having every thought captive to the obedience of Christ's High Priestly ministry.
Repentance gets rid of the bottle neck on God's provisions and of things working in your life as they should. It's not the magic bullet that'll take care of everything. Some ministers have tried to imply that you'll grow in greater and greater rewards by simply staying totally repented. But no, you've got to stand on God's Word and do those things that the Holy Spirit ministers to you to do during your time in the Word. It's the life of obedience that grows in greater and greater grace. It's not the life of repentance. If it's a life of repentance, then someone hasn't truly repented. But you do have to change filters, spark plugs, and clean out things every once in a while -- with every hundred thousand miles or whatever.