Tentmaker Forum

Hi,
I really want to believe there is no hell.  And I love everything I have read on the Tentmaker site, but there is still one thing that puzzles me about
hell in the King James Version being used loosely when they were translating Sheoul and Gehenna.
My question is this:  If this mistranslation makes so much sense, then why are educated pastors, ministers, etc. not learning this in college and then passing this information on to their congregation?  Why hasn't it created a revolution in theology?  Are they ignoring this information?  Saying its a lie?
I can't understand why they are perpetuating the understanding of hell as a literal fire and brimstone place if it boils down to simple mistranslation.
Does anyone have any insight?
Thank you--I've been thinking maybe because if they took away the threat of hell their coffers might diminish? :dontknow:

My opinion is, depending on the person and circumstance, it can be any of all those things you mention.  The other word that comes to mind is blindness - a nicer way to say it is 'being veiled' - which I believe we all are to varying degrees.  I happen to personally believe that most people are not necessarily vindictive with it, but they truly believe that's what the Bible teaches - whether they like it or not.  Then it's perpetuated down through the generations...my teacher said this, and his teacher said this, etc.  It becomes accepted as the truth, then that's all we can see.  We filter everything through that mindset.

"By your traditions you make the Word of God of no effect".

Also, God is working a plan, in which He will be revealed to all.  "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter".

God's blessing, James.

Quote from: relieved1 on October 30, 2009, 11:18:59 PM
Hi,
I really want to believe there is no hell.  And I love everything I have read on the Tentmaker site, but there is still one thing that puzzles me about
hell in the King James Version being used loosely when they were translating Sheoul and Gehenna.
My question is this:  If this mistranslation makes so much sense, then why are educated pastors, ministers, etc. not learning this in college and then passing this information on to their congregation?  Why hasn't it created a revolution in theology?  Are they ignoring this information?  Saying its a lie?
I can't understand why they are perpetuating the understanding of hell as a literal fire and brimstone place if it boils down to simple mistranslation.
Does anyone have any insight?
Thank you--I've been thinking maybe because if they took away the threat of hell their coffers might diminish? :dontknow:

:icon_flower:
hi r1

Hell exists but not necessarilly in the way its commonly taught ..Alas , the flesh sees AFTER the flesh , focusing on the Natural as the reality of whats MEANT to be a shadow of the Spiritual .

Stick around some and with HIS enlightenment you may come to Understand more.. :icon_flower:

Well, there are a number of reasons, really.

The first is historical.  To understand just how entrenched the doctrine of eternal punishment is, one has to recognize two facts: first, that the first mention of eternal punishment in a version of the Bible came over 1,600 years ago; and second, that the Latin Vulgate (which contained this mistranslation) was the only version of the Bible that people were to use for over a millennium.  They quite literally had no other text to use, and may have not even been aware that the Vulgate was a translation, not the original.  So strong was the conviction that people must use the Vulgate that people were literally burned at the stake for the crime of intending to bring the Bible to people's native languages.  So one must keep in mind that for a thousand years people had a book that said in plain view "eternal torment" and had no resources whatsoever that would have helped them.  If the traditions of the Pharisees was strong enough to cause them to nullify the word of God, what do you think a thousand years of the tradition of eternal torment will do?

The second is pragmatic.  Consider what happened when Carlton Pearson began preaching the truth.  When he was a fundamentalist hellfire-and-brimstone preacher, he raked in the dough and had attendance numbering in the thousands.  When he then instead told the people, "No, my God loves you," he was branded a heretic, lost almost all his congregation, and just about went bankrupt.  Telling people that they all are going to go to hell unless they listen to you is a rather good way to make money.  Telling people the truth is not.

The third is psychological.  How many times have you heard someone say something along the lines of, "If universalism is true, then it doesn't even matter if I believe!" or "Why don't you believe in eternal torment, just to be sure?"  Anyone who lives in fear will think fearful thoughts and will allow that fear to run their lives.  A thousand years of pervasive fear in Christian thought cannot help but seep into the minds of humans.  As a result, many of them quite simply do not trust God enough to entrust their eternal fate into his hands - rather, they feel as though they must do whatever they possibly can to hedge their bets and stay far away from whatever hell might exist.  They will preach endlessly that we must trust God, not men, yet they do not even realize how utterly distrustful their actions are.

There are probably others that I'm missing, but you get the idea.  The fact of the matter is that eternal torment has become deeply, deeply ingrained into the very psyche of Christianity itself, and it is unreasonable for us to expect that to change overnight.  Bit by bit, people will come around the more resources we have available through which to bring people to the truth, but it is very slow going to reverse over a millennium and a half of damage.

Hi relieved,

I think most is aready said but I want to add my own thoughts.
I have/had the same thoughts as you have. We/I tend to make a little fun of ETs; but they certainly aren't to stupid to read. If you read this and other forums you will find that many UR teachers were ET pastors before.
I would guess they have read a lot of Greek and Hebrew in their education. I hope someone will explain it to me some time. I think it's a bit like how things work in the secular world. Right-wing reporters are quickly kicked out of a left-wing news paper. Left-wing students very often make it through a left-wing university. Are those people failures or were they just not accepted by their enviorment? Why isn't a Rabbi allowed to teach in a Catholic church? The average Rabbi certainly isn't less educated than the average Catholic preacher. Why there are so many denominations if all is so simple. So it isn't really UR against the rest. 'The rest' is strongly devided too.
UR=Calvinism + Arminianism

Hell just crept in from pagan religions.

Many on the ET side do know that hell is translated from sheol, hades, and gehenna, but they have come up with their own "mythology" to explain why hell was translated from these words.

But their error is starting with the english word "hell" and then reinserting that meaning of "fiery eternal torment" back into the greek.  I have seen it explained like this by some ETers:

"hell" is made up of compartments and different areas.  Hades/sheol is the realm where the dead go.  They are all conscious there, as indicated by the Luke 16 parable of the rich man.  There is a compartment called "paradise", also called "Abraham's bosom", where the saved go.  All others go into the torment "hell" side of hades.  No one has a body here, its just spirit.  When Christ returns, all are resurrected, both saved and unsaved.  Saved go to be with Christ and unsaved are then thrown into the lake of fire, which is also loosely called "hell".  Gehenna is though to be reference to the lake of fire.

So there you can see the theologians have come up with their own system to explain these different words that hell came from, while still believing in the whole thing as a concept of eternal fiery torment.

Of course there are many problems with this view, but they don't see it. 

Quote from: relieved1 on October 30, 2009, 11:18:59 PM
I really want to believe there is no hell.

1. God will have all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). Can His will be thwarted?
2. God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth (1Timothy 2:4). Will His desire come to pass, or is it a weak wish? 
3. Salvation of all is testified in due time (1Timothy 2:6). Are you judging before due time?
4. Jesus came to save all (John 12:47). Will He succeed, or fail?
5. God works all after the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11). Can your will overcome His?
6. Jesus is Savior of the world (John 4:42). Can He be Savior of All without saving All?
7. Jesus is Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). Why don't we believe it?
8. Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself (John 12:32). To burn or to love?
9. By Him all were created (Colossians 1:16).Will He lose any part of His creation?
10. In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live (Romans 5:15-21). The same ALL?
11. In Adam all die, in Christ all live (1 Corinthians 15:22). Again, the same ALL?
12. All come into Him at the fullness of times (Ephesians 1:10). Are any getting tired of seeing the word ALL?
13. Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:9-11). Everyone?
14. Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). Then, Everyone must be given the Spirit?
15. All Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26). But most do not believe, yet?
16. Restitution of all (Acts 3:20, 21). How plain can one get?
17. Jesus will be joy to all people (Luke 2:10). Is there joy in HELL?
18. All will know God (Hebrews 8:11, 12). How long O Lord?
19. His grace shown in the ages to come (Ephesians 2:7). Have we judged Him before the time?
20. Grace has appeared to all (Titus 2:11). Experientially or prophetically?
21. Creation set at liberty (Romans 8:19-21). How much of creation, after those who have the first-fruits of the Spirit?
22. All reconciled unto God (Colossians 1:20). There's that word ALL again.
23. All will have praise of God (1 Corinthians 4:5). What for?
24. End of the Lord is full of mercy (James 5:11). Is HELL merciful?
25. All nations (lands, i.e. people) worship when God's judgments are seen (Revelation 15:4). Is His judgment MERCIFUL?
26. All subject to unbelief, mercy on all (Romans 11:32). ALL?
27. All out of, through, and into Him (Romans 11:36). ALL into Him?
28. Jesus will fill all things (Ephesians 4:10). Including HELL?
29. All creation seen praising God (Revelation 5:13) All creation?
30. God will be All in All (1 Corinthians 15:28). What does this mean?
31. No more tears, all things made new (Revelation 21:4, 5). ALL THINGS?
32. All dead who hear will live (John 5:25). How many will hear?
33. All in the grave will hear AND come forth (John 5:28). How will the Righteous Judge, judge?
34. All saved so as by fire (1 Corinthians 3:15). How can FIRE save you?
35. Everyone shall be salted with fire (Mark 9:49). As in ALL?
36. Reconciliation of the world (Romans 11:15). Will fire save humanity instead of destroying?
37. Jesus died for All (2 Corinthians 5:15). Did He die in vain?
38. Jesus always does what pleases His Father. (John 8:29) What pleases the Father? ( see 1 Timothy 2:4)
39. Jesus is Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2). Do THINGS  include people?
40. Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him (John 17:2). How many did the Father give Him?
41. The Father gave Him all things (John 3:35). Including people?
42. Jesus is Savior of All (1 Timothy  4:9-11). Can't seem to get away from that word ALL?
43. Jesus is able to save to the uttermost (Hebrews 7:25). How far is uttermost? The whole? ALL?
44. Last enemy, death, will be destroyed (1Corinthians 15:26). In the Lake of Fire which is the second death? No more dying         (Rev. 21:4, Isa. 25:8)?
45. God will do all His pleasure (Isaiah 46:10). Does the Old Testament agree with the New?
46. All families of the earth will be blessed (Genesis 18:18). Here's that word ALL again.
47. God's will done in heaven and earth (Daniel 4:35). What can defeat His will?
48. Enemies will submit to God (Psalms 66:3, 4). Can any stay rebellious?
49. God turns man to destruction, and then says return (Psalms 90:3). How can one return from destruction? Humbled,                  bruised and ashamed?
50. Will destroy veil spread over all nations (Isaiah 25:7). All lands and people?
51. He kills and makes alive (Deuteronomy 32:39). To bring about an abundant life?
52. God fashions all hearts (Psalms 33:15) ALL HEARTS?
53. Man devises, God directs his steps (Proverbs 16:9). What about Self Determination?
54. Man devises, but God's counsel stands (Proverbs 19:21). So much for SELF?
55. God will not cast off forever (Lamentations 3:31, 32). Why does He cast off in the first place?
56. All nations shall flow to the Lord's house (Isaiah 2:2). ALL PEOPLE?
57. All nations will worship Him (Psalms 86:9). ALL PEOPLE?
58. All descendants of Israel justified (Isaiah 45:23). Including those that were wicked?
59. All kings will praise God (Psalms 138:4). Are you catching on to this word ALL?
60. All flesh will come to God (Psalms 65:2-4). How Wondrous?
61. God only does wondrous things (Psalms 72:18). Will ALL BELIEVE that?
62. Egypt and Assyria will be restored (Isaiah 19:14, 15). Truly?
63. Sodom will be restored to former estate (Ezekiel 16:55). Sound impossible?
64. Nothing is too difficult for Him (Jeremiah 32:17). Nothing is impossible?
65. All ends of the earth will turn to Him (Psalms 22:27). For what purpose?
66. All families will worship before Him (Psalms 22:27). Praise Him!
67. He is good to all (Psalms 145:9). Including your enemies?
68. His mercies are over all his works (Psalms 145:9). Let's start believing that!
69. He raises all who fall (Psalms 145:14). Who have not missed the mark?
70. All His works will praise Him (Psalms 145:10). For Eternal torment?
71. Lord makes a feast for all people  (Isaiah 25:6). And you are invited.
72. Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire (Jeremiah 32:35). This came from the carnal (soulish) mind,                NOT SPIRITUAL.
73. No one can come to Him unless He draws (drags) them (John 6:44). You can't fight this?
74. I will draw all mankind unto Myself (John 12:32). Is this the truth, or not?
75. God does what pleases Him (Psalms 135:6). If it PLEASES Him to SAVE ALL that He might be in ALL, are any upset?

No one can nullify the Scriptures, unless they speak falsely. People have added, and taken away from the word, turned an age into eternity, reduced salvation to a few and diminished His Will to nothing more than a weak wish. All will not over come in this life; but All will come to the throne of Grace in the Presence of the Lamb. (Revelation 14:10)

Do you know, or understand that the church would become the Whore of Babylon; apostate, under the persuasion of false teachers?

Do you also know that any who do not believe in the truth of the gospel, but have need of secret doctrines and such, are under the spirit of an anti-Christ which the Apostle John warned about?

The prophet Jeremiah (14:13), likewise, ministered warnings and exposed false teachers:

"Then the lord said unto me. Prophets prophesy lies in my name. I sent them not. Neither have I commanded them, nor spoke to them. They prophesy to you a false vision and Divination (the act of foretelling future events, allegedly by supernatural means FOR A FEE) ... and deceit of their heart."

Notice verse sixteen in Jeremiah, chapter 14: "and the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem."

As if the false prophets, preachers and teachers were not enough, those who listen to them will also be cast out, until they are Resurrected in the Spirit of Truth.
(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/493/493261kwph0krn73.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
"All will eventually, come to see the Light of Day."

 1 Corinthians 1:2
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Pastors are taught a lot of things in seminary that they don't pass on to their congregations. There are probably lots of reasons why, some of which you mentioned. Pastors go to school to get an education that they ostensibly can use to minister to people.

So, they're not going to pass on any information that would cause people to question their faith, are they? (Rhetorical question).

But I think Jabcat's right. Error has been passed down for generations. I forget who said it, but if you tell a lie long enough, eventually people will begin to accept it as truth. (especially if they have no way to check for themselves).

Gonna show my noobness again but what level of education is pastor and similar.
Can't be uni level I assume because every degree require the student to do write some study of his own hand.
A photo copy of the works of Calvin won't do I assume. What do student on a seminary actually learn? Memorizing verses and doctrines? Or also studying the Greek and Hebrew?
I think Ray Smith is right when he calls a seminary a ceminary because they burry the truth there  :laughing7:

That said I think seminary students enter school/uni pre-indoctrinated. To start such a study you most likely are already religious. So when your parents taught you to be a Calvinist you pick a Calvinist seminary to proof you are right.

Quote from: Doc on November 03, 2009, 07:53:05 PM
But I think Jabcat's right. Error has been passed down for generations. I forget who said it, but if you tell a lie long enough, eventually people will begin to accept it as truth. (especially if they have no way to check for themselves).

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
Joseph Goebbels - Hitler's minister of propaganda.

Seems to fit very well with certain doctrines. Including the part about shielding.

Just to add a bit of info, Pastor Robert Rutherford noted more than once in a few sermons that he knew of very high profile evangelists who told him that he believed Robert was correct but that he "shouldn't rock the boat."

Remember the power of the almighty dollar in this whole issue. I think some preachers know more than they will admit.

Then I ask you; do such pastors actually believe?
Aren't they scared God is gonna grind them big time in the afterlife for deliberately decieving His flock and slandering His personality?
For an atheist it's simple. If noone sees it I'm on safe ground. But a religious pastor knows God sees everything

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2009, 08:13:39 PM
Gonna show my noobness again but what level of education is pastor and similar.
Can't be uni level I assume because every degree require the student to do write some study of his own hand.
A photo copy of the works of Calvin won't do I assume. What do student on a seminary actually learn? Memorizing verses and doctrines? Or also studying the Greek and Hebrew?
I think Ray Smith is right when he calls a seminary a ceminary because they burry the truth there  :laughing7:

That said I think seminary students enter school/uni pre-indoctrinated. To start such a study you most likely are already religious. So when your parents taught you to be a Calvinist you pick a Calvinist seminary to proof you are right.

Can't say for sure in Europe, but in the States, Pastor is typically an office rather than a degree as such. Typically, pastors have a doctorate of some kind (D.Min for example) and often have more than one degree. My father has pastored in the past, and he has a Th.M. (Masters in Theology) and a D. Min. (Doctorate of Ministry). Some pastors have a Th.D. Which is the theological equivalent of a PhD.

They learn lots of stuff, including ancient languages and textual criticism, which are a couple of the things they typically don't pass on due to the questions those would raise.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2009, 09:11:26 PM
Then I ask you; do such pastors actually believe?
Aren't they scared God is gonna grind them big time in the afterlife for deliberately decieving His flock and slandering His personality?

If they believe that everyone will be saved, and they do not conform their teaching because they will lose followers and money, then obviously one kind of fear is trumping another.

QuoteFor an atheist it's simple. If noone sees it I'm on safe ground. But a religious pastor knows God sees everything

Not quite sure what you mean there.

 :cloud9: I've met two such pastors in my life, who I was stunned to find out had known that the rapture was a lie for 20 years, yet they continued to teach it. In response to my shocked inquiry, their reply was, "But you'll never build a big church that way."

Sad really, especially in light of the fact that the Spirit "added such as should be added, daily". Blessings....

Quote

QuoteFor an atheist it's simple. If noone sees it I'm on safe ground. But a religious pastor knows God sees everything

Not quite sure what you mean there.

We have a saying: If you don't get caught it isn't a crime.
But with God you alwats get caught.

So what I mean is this: If an atheist lies steals and cheats and can hide it s/he feels safe because noone knows.
A pastor know there is at one Judge that sees everything...

Quote from: Doc on November 03, 2009, 09:14:22 PM
Can't say for sure in Europe, but in the States, Pastor is typically an office rather than a degree as such. Typically, pastors have a doctorate of some kind (D.Min for example) and often have more than one degree. My father has pastored in the past, and he has a Th.M. (Masters in Theology) and a D. Min. (Doctorate of Ministry). Some pastors have a Th.D. Which is the theological equivalent of a PhD.

Thanks for the info. I knew all the tiitles because quite often articles are signed with it. I just didn't know if they are pastors or someone higher ranking.

QuoteThey learn lots of stuff, including ancient languages and textual criticism, which are a couple of the things they typically don't pass on due to the questions those would raise.

And noone ever asks: He teach! How about aion? I guess your answer is $$$.
I'm far free from greed but I wouldn't be able to spend my whole life teaching something that I don't believe. In fact I'm often to honest for my own good... Of course things are easy if one can get a good job anyway. If the choice is living in a lie of living on welfare...
But even then; when I read message from people on this forum or elsewhere that sometimes are completly losing their mind because of fear I think "what kind of animal that pastor must be knowing his lies totally wreck whole lives/families"

And Seth did your father kick out his heretic UR son?  :laughing7:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 03, 2009, 09:49:44 PM
:cloud9: I've met two such pastors in my life, who I was stunned to find out had known that the rapture was a lie for 20 years, yet they continued to teach it. In response to my shocked inquiry, their reply was, "But you'll never build a big church that way."

Sad really, especially in light of the fact that the Spirit "added such as should be added, daily". Blessings....

Yeah, there's a lot of that kind of thing going on. It is sad, particularly because I believe there are specific warnings in scripture about teaching what people want to hear vs. the truth.

Quote from: Cardinal on November 03, 2009, 09:49:44 PM
:cloud9: I've met two such pastors in my life, who I was stunned to find out had known that the rapture was a lie for 20 years, yet they continued to teach it. In response to my shocked inquiry, their reply was, "But you'll never build a big church that way."

Sad really, especially in light of the fact that the Spirit "added such as should be added, daily". Blessings....

Maybe a case of "means justifies the ends" too.  Read up on the "doctrine of reserve".  Only the truth is "reserved" for those who are ready for it...


But truthfully only God can use any means to justify the ends, because He is the only one that can guarantee a good outcome will occur.  Man can only try, but usually fails.  Man usually ends up "justifying the means", but never actually reaching the good end...

Quote from: legoman on November 03, 2009, 10:23:39 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 03, 2009, 09:49:44 PM
:cloud9: I've met two such pastors in my life, who I was stunned to find out had known that the rapture was a lie for 20 years, yet they continued to teach it. In response to my shocked inquiry, their reply was, "But you'll never build a big church that way."

Sad really, especially in light of the fact that the Spirit "added such as should be added, daily". Blessings....

Maybe a case of "means justifies the ends" too.  Read up on the "doctrine of reserve".  Only the truth is "reserved" for those who are ready for it...

Withholding parts of the truth is different from telling outright lies/contradictions.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2009, 10:33:03 PM

Quote from: legoman on November 03, 2009, 10:23:39 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 03, 2009, 09:49:44 PM
:cloud9: I've met two such pastors in my life, who I was stunned to find out had known that the rapture was a lie for 20 years, yet they continued to teach it. In response to my shocked inquiry, their reply was, "But you'll never build a big church that way."

Sad really, especially in light of the fact that the Spirit "added such as should be added, daily". Blessings....

Maybe a case of "means justifies the ends" too.  Read up on the "doctrine of reserve".  Only the truth is "reserved" for those who are ready for it...

Withholding parts of the truth is different from telling outright lies/contradictions.

Hmm... not sure.  Its still a lie of ommission:

"Repent or go to hell"
vs.
"Repent or go to hell... until you repent"

So Mr. Pastor gives yet another hellfire speech that give people sleepness nights. And not once a year or even in once in his 40 year career he mentions "...until you repent."
If we take very strickt defenitions you (possibly) are right. But for me it's a lie.
Doesn't satan work the same way? Lots of truth poisoned with a little lie. Or lots of truth with a little omission.
And even if you are right driving your flock over the cliff with your omissions isn't very likely not what Jesus meant with 'helping eachother'.

How would you feel if after 80 years of study you find a verse by Jesus: Yaweh is the highest God but His wife is a even higher Godess. Lie or ommission...

Problem is, most of them believe what they're teaching is true when it comes to eternal hell.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2009, 09:56:06 PM

Quote

QuoteFor an atheist it's simple. If noone sees it I'm on safe ground. But a religious pastor knows God sees everything

Not quite sure what you mean there.

We have a saying: If you don't get caught it isn't a crime.
But with God you alwats get caught.

So what I mean is this: If an atheist lies steals and cheats and can hide it s/he feels safe because noone knows.
A pastor know there is at one Judge that sees everything...

Ah, I see better now what you are saying. Well, I can point to a personal experience. Years ago, I was contemplating suicide among the reasons being many sins I was caught in and could not get out of by myself. Now, I believed that people who committed suicide would go to hell. My response: God, you will just have to send me to hell, because I am going to kill myself.

I feared hell, but my sin overruled my fear. I didn't care anymore. I always remembered that when ETers reasoned that people need to believe in hell to stay in line more. Anyway, they may fear God, but maybe not  more than they love money...or church numbers...or whatever else they prop up.

Quote from: relieved1 on October 30, 2009, 11:18:59 PMI really want to believe there is no hell.

Depends on what you think hell is. The meaning of the words has changed very much over time.
Did you find the list with verses like God is fire? Everyone shall be salted with fire . And similar verses.
It may giv eyou just that little extra proof hell is not what you might think it is.
If you like a loooot of reading I can point you to some articles.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2009, 10:10:05 PM
And Seth did your father kick out his heretic UR son?  :laughing7:

My dad? No, I was already well far into living on my own, but he was upset at first.

QuoteI feared hell, but my sin overruled my fear.

Just a yes or no will do. (or simply ignore) Did you plan for suicide because of hell teaching?

Speaking in general now. I don't think that believers that commit suicide have  a stronger sinful nature as a fearful nature. A person can take only that much and then something snaps. Reasoning is missing. Even if they feel their reasoning is still sharp. So I wonder is hell existed and people commit suicide that God would held the accountable for that act. Some people have terrible lifes. Then I can understand they take a handful of pills and slip into an eternal sleep and leave the horrors behind...

Quote from: Seth on November 03, 2009, 11:22:11 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2009, 10:10:05 PM
And Seth did your father kick out his heretic UR son?  :laughing7:

My dad? No, I was already well far into living on my own, but he was upset at first.

Is he fully ET or does he admit his study showed him URish hints....?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2009, 11:32:56 PM

QuoteI feared hell, but my sin overruled my fear.

Just a yes or no will do. (or simply ignore) Did you plan for suicide because of hell teaching?

Not directly but it factored in on a deeper level. Sorry that wasn't yes or no, but it was the best answer I could give.

QuoteSpeaking in general now. I don't think that believers that commit suicide have  a stronger sinful nature as a fearful nature. A person can take only that much and then something snaps. Reasoning is missing. Even if they feel their reasoning is still sharp. So I wonder is hell existed and people commit suicide that God would held the accountable for that act. Some people have terrible lifes. Then I can understand they take a handful of pills and slip into an eternal sleep and leave the horrors behind...

I'm not sure that I would say "stronger sinful nature" but I do think that some people are more susceptible to different things. However, if I knew hell didn't exist, knowing myself, I probably would not have gotten to that level. Knowing the truth really did set me free to build on a solid foundation. The false belief in hell made my foundation shaky.

Fear causes addiction to sinful things, because those sinful things comfort the flesh.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2009, 11:34:59 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 03, 2009, 11:22:11 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2009, 10:10:05 PM
And Seth did your father kick out his heretic UR son?  :laughing7:

My dad? No, I was already well far into living on my own, but he was upset at first.

Is he fully ET or does he admit his study showed him URish hints....?

He is fully ET, and we don't talk about it because he asked me not to bring it up or send him info anymore. So that's that with that.

QuoteMy question is this:  If this mistranslation makes so much sense, then why are educated pastors, ministers, etc. not learning this in college and then passing this information on to their congregation?  Why hasn't it created a revolution in theology?  Are they ignoring this information?  Saying its a lie?

I try to answer it a bit, I can give no quarantee that what I say is right.

The KJV translators translated sheol both with grave and hell, so either they did this willfully or they understood "hell" meaning just the grave, or different translators have been the reason. If translators twisted the bible willfully back then (which I think they did), we can assume people do this still today.

I'm German, and I'm convinced the revised Luther bibles have been willfully twisted, Luther translated sheol almost in all occurrences with hell which is not wrong at all, yet in the 1912 version, they rendered sheol commonly grave and only when referring to bad people as Korah e.g. with hell, very similar like the KJV, the 1984 version has abandoned hell in the OT.

Many other modern bibles have abandoned hell at least in the Old Testament, but they insist gehenna means hell. This is something one can dispute.

Some of the apocrypha support this translation, so from a scholarly point of view, it is a possible translation.

Concerning aion and aionios, most scholars are of the opinion that Plato understood aion as eternity, so they use Plato as authority to translate these words with eternity, everlasting, etc.

I do not know of any learned German scholar who teaches eternal torment, however most scholars teach what they themselfes have been taught, many cult-ike evangelical denominations teach hell, they are just like catholics, following their tradition.

Most dictionaries give eternity as a possible translation for aion, so you can't accuse anybody if he follows this definition, it is however a Platonist and not a biblical definition, and even Platos idea of eternity does not neccessarily mean endlessness.

I consider aion and aionios of more relevance on the subject of universalism than the term hell, even according to the KJV hell is not neccessarily eternal (e.g Jonah 2).

Some people seem to have a interest to hold the doctrine of eternal torment alive, others appear to honestly think it is scriptural, using history as authority, they claim words like sheol, gehenna, have changed their meanings over the intertestamental period and were used by Christ in the sense they have commonly now.

Especially the idea of eternity is hard to remove from the believers mind.

Quote from: sven on November 05, 2009, 06:50:43 PMI'm German, and I'm convinced the revised Luther bibles have been willfully twisted,

Just like the translator in WillieH signature. Burned him as a heretic, changed a few 'offending' words and used his work.

QuoteConcerning aion and aionios, most scholars are of the opinion that Plato understood aion as eternity, so they use Plato as authority to translate these words with eternity, everlasting, etc.

Read the reply Martin made in Lupac's thread today.

QuoteMost dictionaries give eternity as a possible translation for aion, so you can't accuse anybody if he follows this definition, it is however a Platonist and not a biblical definition, and even Platos idea of eternity does not neccessarily mean endlessness.

Dictionaries are not leading but following. They show history not dictate it.
If all Greeks from now on use aion when they mean banana then in a few years the meaning banana is added.
That's why I'm looking for old dictionaries.

 :cloud9: That's true, WW. I've seen something disappear out of my original Strong's that I bought 23 years ago. In it, "mansions" as in, in my Father's house are many mansions and I go to prepare you a place for you", mansion, actually had a meaning of "nests" in it, which fits nicely with the understanding that we are being made to be "eagles" that fly above the storms of life, and with the understanding that the Jewish "booths" from the feast of Tabernacles are in essence, a big upside-down NEST.

But in later editions, which I also own, that word is omitted as a meaning, no doubt to help support the erroneous doctrine of the "rapture", in which we're "flying away" instead of Him building us a "nest" for Him to gather us up in His "wings" and cover us as His nature of El Shaddai, in. Blessings....

willieH: Hi Gab -- :hithere:

Quote from: Gab on October 31, 2009, 03:09:00 AM
Well, there are a number of reasons, really.

The first is historical.  To understand just how entrenched the doctrine of eternal punishment is, one has to recognize two facts: first, that the first mention of eternal punishment in a version of the Bible came over 1,600 years ago; and second, that the Latin Vulgate (which contained this mistranslation) was the only version of the Bible that people were to use for over a millennium.  They quite literally had no other text to use, and may have not even been aware that the Vulgate was a translation, not the original.  So strong was the conviction that people must use the Vulgate that people were literally burned at the stake for the crime of intending to bring the Bible to people's native languages.  So one must keep in mind that for a thousand years people had a book that said in plain view "eternal torment" and had no resources whatsoever that would have helped them.  If the traditions of the Pharisees was strong enough to cause them to nullify the word of God, what do you think a thousand years of the tradition of eternal torment will do?

The second is pragmatic.  Consider what happened when Carlton Pearson began preaching the truth.  When he was a fundamentalist hellfire-and-brimstone preacher, he raked in the dough and had attendance numbering in the thousands.  When he then instead told the people, "No, my God loves you," he was branded a heretic, lost almost all his congregation, and just about went bankrupt.  Telling people that they all are going to go to hell unless they listen to you is a rather good way to make money.  Telling people the truth is not.

The third is psychological.  How many times have you heard someone say something along the lines of, "If universalism is true, then it doesn't even matter if I believe!" or "Why don't you believe in eternal torment, just to be sure?"  Anyone who lives in fear will think fearful thoughts and will allow that fear to run their lives.  A thousand years of pervasive fear in Christian thought cannot help but seep into the minds of humans.  As a result, many of them quite simply do not trust God enough to entrust their eternal fate into his hands - rather, they feel as though they must do whatever they possibly can to hedge their bets and stay far away from whatever hell might exist.  They will preach endlessly that we must trust God, not men, yet they do not even realize how utterly distrustful their actions are.

There are probably others that I'm missing, but you get the idea.  The fact of the matter is that eternal torment has become deeply, deeply ingrained into the very psyche of Christianity itself, and it is unreasonable for us to expect that to change overnight.  Bit by bit, people will come around the more resources we have available through which to bring people to the truth, but it is very slow going to reverse over a millennium and a half of damage.

:goodpost:  Great post Gab!  The only one you left out is the one Jab mentioned a few posts earlier, which [IMHO] is the MOST pivotal one -- that is that those who are VEILED are simply -- UNREVEALED. 

Remember also that FEW shall enter into the Kingdom of God (which is assumed by the MANY to mean -- gain SALVATION)...

If one reviews the WORD... it is always FEW who "listen" and  that come to KNOW TRUTH... the nation of ISRAEL was ALWAYS being spanked for its various wanderings and UNBELIEF... And when CHRIST came... they would not accept His teachings because they were not ORDAINED to...

No MAN "chooses" to KNOW the TRUTH... it becomes KNOWN only to those whom GOD has chosen shall KNOW it...

In the end, we are on GOD's agenda... He is not on OURS... And in THIS, does religion fail...  For EVERYONE who is in BONDAGE to RELIGION... has placed God into his/her own little BOX... and as they convey their varying and confused versions... The "god" they are conveying is mostly THEMSELVES... (ALWAYS including THEMSELVES in the portion which is SAVED, yet armed with the CONFUSION of CONDEMNATION of others -- which WAS NOT EXAMPLED by CHRIST)

Instead of the GOD which inspires such writing that says:  He "so LOVED the WORLD" or that "He is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, especially those that BELIEVE" or "behold the Lamb of God which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the WORLD".... or one of my personal favorite passages, ...which happens to be the ONLY MENTION of GEHENNA outside of the Gospel accounts of CHRIST

And only using the word once -- in describing the "FORK TONGUED" message of Christianity:

[bracket comments are mine]:

James 3:6 -- 6 --and the TONGUE [which brings a message] is a FIRE, a world of INIQUITY, so is the TONGUE among our members, that it DEFILETH the WHOLE BODY, and -- setteth ON FIRE the course of NATURE [unconverted men in the natural] and is set ON FIRE of GEHENNA 

and moments later, James continues to say:

James 3:8-11 -- 8 -- but the TONGUE can NO MAN tame [only God can do this] -- it is an UNRULY EVIL -- FULL of DEADLY POISON [such as ET]... 9 --  THEREWITH "bless we God" [who does that? = christianty] and THEREWITH "CURSE we MEN" [again who does that? = christianity] -- which are MADE after the similitude of GOD...  10 -- Out of the SAME MOUTH proceedeth BLESSING [worship of God] and CURSING [condemnation of men], my brethren -- THESE THINGS -- OUGHT NOT be SO... 11 -- Doth a FOUNTAIN [of LIVING WATER], SEND FORTH at the SAME PLACE [the TONGUE] -- SWEET water and BITTER?

:Peace:

willieH: Hi Relieved1 -- :welcome: to Tentmaker!

Quote from: relieved1 on October 30, 2009, 11:18:59 PM
Hi,
I really want to believe there is no hell.  And I love everything I have read on the Tentmaker site, but there is still one thing that puzzles me about
hell in the King James Version being used loosely when they were translating Sheoul and Gehenna.
My question is this:  If this mistranslation makes so much sense, then why are educated pastors, ministers, etc. not learning this in college and then passing this information on to their congregation?  Why hasn't it created a revolution in theology?  Are they ignoring this information?  Saying its a lie?
I can't understand why they are perpetuating the understanding of hell as a literal fire and brimstone place if it boils down to simple mistranslation.
Does anyone have any insight?
Thank you--I've been thinking maybe because if they took away the threat of hell their coffers might diminish? :dontknow:

As well as the MONEY that they richly lavish in...  :sigh:

As has been noted... see the "Carlton Pearson" story!  Like SNAKES did they TURN on Him... 

I believe CHRIST noted these (religious ones in His day) as "VIPERS"  :dontknow:

 :cloud9: Yes they did Willie, but you know I believe the latter house of Carlton is going to be greater than the former, both spiritually speaking, and in the natural. Wait till they see his 1000 fold harvest on that seed he let fall to the earth and die, Amen? Blessings.....

Quote from: Cardinal on November 05, 2009, 07:32:25 PM
:cloud9: That's true, WW. I've seen something disappear out of my original Strong's that I bought 23 years ago. In it, "mansions" as in, in my Father's house are many mansions and I go to prepare you a place for you", mansion, actually had a meaning of "nests" in it, which fits nicely with the understanding that we are being made to be "eagles" that fly above the storms of life, and with the understanding that the Jewish "booths" from the feast of Tabernacles are in essence, a big upside-down NEST.

A nest makes me think of a tree (of life).
I search quite a bit for a old dictionary. The problem is that at 1611 (KJV) or before there were far less printed books as now. My hope was on Google books but I found nothing old enough.

 

  wow good to have ya back Bro Willie  !

    you guys are  blessing my socks off in this thread
  I  feel the  joy of salvation     just  a moving  sooo freely

  whew!!! :cloud9: :icon_flower: :HeartThrob:

quite  refreshing really ...  :icon_flower:

Hi Bill

hope that healths holding up Bud..good see ya back at board... :icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on November 05, 2009, 10:15:44 PM
Hi Bill

hope that healths holding up Bud..good see ya back at board... :icon_flower:

Amen!

 :cloud9: Make that 3 amens!  :girlheart:

willieH: Hi all -- :hithere:

Such a nice and warm welcome!  :mblush:

I have (when time has allowed), been posting on the Christian Message Board, and they don't like me a lot!  :sigh: 

It is Sooooo nice to come back to home base, and be amongst my  :dbook: ENLIGHTENED brothers and sisters...  :bgdance:

You guys are just the best!  :grouppray: 

I'm really hopin and prayin for the "CMB people", that they will one day see the TRUE GOSPEL... but that is God's call alone... :nod:

:Peace: --- your bro...