Hi there, I am talking on another forum with another christian about UR. He regards it as a heresy, and this is how he supports his view philosophically. Please tell me how you see this and how you would respond.
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As [namehidden] has shown very well, universal reconciliation or universal salvation is what is meant when Christians use the term "universalism." It's also sometimes called "apocatastasis." In any case, universalism has been consistently condemned as heretical throughout Church history by all orthodox Christians. Besides the problem of even proving such a view from Scripture (and I would say that to do so requires some pretty serious Scripture twisting--annihilationism can make a better Scriptural case--the doctrine also suffers from the following three serious philosophical problems:
1. The problem of free will if all are saved.
2. The ethical problem of "why be good?" if all are saved.
3. The portrayal of a "Chump God" who's character does not conform to the standard attributes of an all powerful, all knowing, and all just God.
Concerning the problem of free will, as others have pointed out, if all are saved, even if they don't want to be saved, then what does this do to the idea of free will? It makes God into a God who so loved his robots, that he programmed them so that no matter what they did, their programming would force them to be in His loving presence for all eternity, regardless of how they felt about Him. They are either brainwashed or forced against their will into this position. Either option paints a problematic picture of God.
Ethically speaking, if all are saved in the end, then there is really no point in wasting time with religion because you're all going to the same place anyways. Why waste time trying to live a boring "pure" life when you could be partying it up? God's gonna save us all after all so why waste time with all the jazz? If it sounds like I'm being silly, I'm not. This seems to be the most serious problem of universalism since it makes all belief and actions pointless. There's no reason to be a Christian, no reason to even accept Christ in the first place, and absolutely no reason to even preach Christ. All are saved. Relax and enjoy life. Heck, who needs revelation!?
Finally, universalism paints a picture of God as "The Great Chump" or pushover of the universe who allows humanity to walk all over him and yet still saves them because he has no backbone, no justice, but just a misguided "love". Neither of these versions of God can hold up to the God revealed to us in Scripture, not to mention that this starts to paint a picture of a being who might not even qualify as "God" in the usual sense of the attributes of God, since such a God is a God of a universe that is completely out of his control and who has no ability to exercise justice since that's just mean and not very loving. So if you've got a spineless, unjust, and impotent God, can you still even call it "God"?
So in the end, these UR folks are just another universalist group. I sympathize with them as I do with everyone who struggles with hell--and who doesn't? But in the end, this belief is just plain heretical. As Christians, we need to come to terms with God's sovereignty, God's justice, God's wrath, and not try to make an idol out of God to ease our fears. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Can we even say we know the God of Scripture if we don't know the fear of Him?
In any case, hope this helps!
1. There is no problem of free will free will is an unbiblical term, it is time Christians see the nature of our will as defined by scripture. The term Free Will is actually a strawman and has no bearing upon Christian Universalism in the first place.
Proverbs 16:9 and 5:21 has always summed it up for me. "a man devises a way but God directs his steps" We can make choices that send us down dark paths and God has prepared the way despite all of them.
2. There is no ethical problem of why be good if all are saved. The assumption is that being good is what has saved us in the first place. It is another strawman. Christians even under the paradigm of eternal damanation still sin so the logical conclusion is that there are no christians that are saved.
3. Actually this one is a concept that the universalists are often guilty of and that is asserting that someone elses beliefs portray God in a certain light. Perhaps guilty is a poor choice of words, however the problem remains the same. Universalists often assert that other doctrines portray God a certain way when in reality a person who believes various things really does not see God in the light of others assumptions. For instance, we can portray the God that allows eternal damnation as weak and impotent to stop evil, when the reality of the belief system is that God simply has dealt out responsibility a certain way and humans have failed God. We will argue that is not the case, but what we should be more aware of is to simply promote what we are actually saying about God so that others cannot use the same argumentative technic against us.
When it comes down to it this line of reasoning is something that any belief system can use against another and always be able to cast a shadow of doubt, therefor the argument is moot because it has no absolute way of creating fact vs opinion so it means absolutely nothing concerning the truth or error of anything.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on November 06, 2010, 05:08:16 PM
As [namehidden] has shown very well, universal reconciliation or universal salvation is what is meant when Christians use the term "universalism." It's also sometimes called "apocatastasis." In any case, universalism has been consistently condemned as heretical throughout Church history by all orthodox Christians.
Excluding all church fathers of the first 4 centuries. Even Augustine didn't see UR as a total impossibility.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html)
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/index.html?page=source%2FThe_prevailing_doctrine.htm (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/index.html?page=source%2FThe_prevailing_doctrine.htm)
QuoteBesides the problem of even proving such a view from Scripture (and I would say that to do so requires some pretty serious Scripture twisting
It only requires correcting the translations based on pagan concepts. Or reading the original Hebrew and Greek versions. Or use orthodox approved lexicons ny Strong, Thayer and Brown-Driver-Briggs
Quote--annihilationism can make a better Scriptural case--the doctrine also suffers from the following three serious philosophical problems:
1. The problem of free will if all are saved.
a] Not all are saved by annihilationism so this point is not relavant.
b] Prove free will.
Quote2. The ethical problem of "why be good?" if all are saved.
So basicly you are a sinner that's restrained by fear of hell. You only believe because that's what you think will save you. You don't worship and love. You are just paying fire insurance.
Quote3. The portrayal of a "Chump God" who's character does not conform to the standard attributes of an all powerful, all knowing, and all just God.
So the standard attribute of power is torture? Why would such a God sent His Son to get slaughterd? Question what verse(s) state love and compassion makes God a Chump God? Maybe He actually is a Chump God. The good guy. You know in daily life the really strong are the quiet types. They don't need a loud mouth and showing power. They know they are at the top and that gives them inner rest because they know they can deal with any situation.
Your reasoning comes straight from the mind of a insecure vindictive school bully.
QuoteConcerning the problem of free will, as others have pointed out, if all are saved, even if they don't want to be saved, then what does this do to the idea of free will? It makes God into a God who so loved his robots, that he programmed them so that no matter what they did, their programming would force them to be in His loving presence for all eternity, regardless of how they felt about Him. They are either brainwashed or forced against their will into this position. Either option paints a problematic picture of God.
a] Prove free will.
b] Does free will also mean people can vote God out of heaven and take over the place?
c] Do you really believe that people that don't want to be with God want to be tortured? Or do you see it as a possibilty that in their free will they decided they want sex, drug and rock and roll for eternity. Is that wish of free will also granted?
d1] What's better being brainwashed into happyness/heaven or cast into hell?
d2] Show some verses Christian Universalist use to show brainwashing.
e] How do you call scaring people into hell? Brianroasting?
QuoteEthically
I truely doubt you even know what that word means....
Ethically speaking torture is never permitted.
Quotespeaking, if all are saved in the end, then there is really no point in wasting time with religion
Good point. Let's all commit suicide because we are all gonna die anyway.
Another proof that your doctrine is based on fear and false worship.
You keep writing in terms of "negativity". Avoid torture. Why bother if all get to the same place. Etc.
The whole point of religion is the "Jesus like factor". Be kind to eachother. Not earn some points to get into heaven.
Quotebecause you're all going to the same place anyways.
Agreed. Grave. Pit. Unseen (=original meaning of hell)
Remember that the wages of sin is death. Noth torture.
QuoteWhy waste time trying to live a boring "pure" life when you could be partying it up? God's gonna save us all after all so why waste time with all the jazz?
And again you show your negative aproach. You just wrote living pure is a waste of time. So the following verse is about you.
Matthew 15:19 for out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, whoredoms, thefts, false witnessings, evil speakings:
QuoteIf it sounds like I'm being silly, I'm not. This seems to be the most serious problem of universalism since it makes all belief and actions pointless. There's no reason to be a Christian, no reason to even accept Christ in the first place, and absolutely no reason to even preach Christ. All are saved. Relax and enjoy life. Heck, who needs revelation!?
You are wrong about what UR really is. But let's assume you are correct on all your points? Who are you/I/we to say God handles things the wrong way?
Everyone can have opnions. Any my opionion is that you can't back up a single claim with verses.
QuoteFinally, universalism paints a picture of God as "The Great Chump" or pushover of the universe who allows humanity to walk all over him and yet still saves them because he has no backbone, no justice, but just a misguided "love".
Before you make such claims it's advised:
You really should study what UR is about. You will learn UR is far more than you ever imagined. But unlike ET it's not for people with shallow minds...
QuoteNeither of these versions of God can hold up to the God revealed to us in Scripture,
I think the main problem is that you are reading the Anton LaVey translation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Bible)
Quotenot to mention that this starts to paint a picture of a being who might not even qualify as "God" in the usual sense of the attributes of God, since such a God is a God of a universe that is completely out of his control and who has no ability to exercise justice since that's just mean and not very loving. So if you've got a spineless, unjust, and impotent God, can you still even call it "God"?
There is only one God; so you can't benchmark Him the way you do. Anyway the UR God is in full control. He wants everyone to be His child in heaven and will complete the task. Teamwork with the Good Shepherd who searches every single sheep.
The ET "god" is at war with satan and loses 95% of His creation. In your religion Satan wins the war. Satan is certainly not the chubby guy. No he the cool guy who sows terror and harvests pain and sorrow. Just like your ideal picture of God.
QuoteSo in the end, these UR folks are just another universalist group.
While those other Universalists are wrong they are more right than your vile doctrine.
Basicly they are between ET and CUR.
They believe in love like CUR.
They don't believe in God like ET.
QuoteI sympathize with them as I do with everyone who struggles with hell--and who doesn't?
Sympathy. That's good. That's taught by Jesus.
I don't struggle with hell the slightest bit. It simple doesn't exist.
Love casts out all fear. Seems you have a path to walk.
QuoteBut in the end, this belief is just plain heretical.
I thank you for all the verses proving CUR wrong!
Usually advesaries of CUR have no clue what CUR is about. They only give opinions without scripture to back-up their claims. Of course some try to prove their pagan docrtrine with verses and after failing to do so they sometimes revert to word meanings. Real comedians.
But you are different... :laughing7:
QuoteAs Christians, we need to come to terms with God's sovereignty, God's justice, God's wrath, and not try to make an idol out of God to ease our fears.
Typical you forgot to mention love. Justice is incompatible with wrath...
QuoteThe fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
I hope to read something from you after you have been scared are whole lot more. I might even learn something :pointlaugh:
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on November 06, 2010, 05:08:16 PM
1. The problem of free will if all are saved.
The bible very strongly states that God's will trumps anyone else's. We have a limited free will yes, but God bends our will to His. Punishment after death is a way of accomplishing this, we are shown to be the wretches we truly are and have no choice but to submit out will to His.
Furthermore, how can one truly make an informed decision while living on this carnal earth? We are finite beings with a finite understanding of things and we are VERY prone to errors. Will God allow our limited understanding of Him baffle His will that all come to know Him? Preposterous!
Quote
2. The ethical problem of "why be good?" if all are saved.
There is still punishment for not following God in this lifetime, and eonian life is promised to those who do follow Christ here on earth. There's also the whole thing where we get to fellowship with God and enjoy a more fruitful life serving Him here....if salvation is just a fire escape then it's a pretty poor kind of salvation. Sin still hurts, and sin will still be punished. I don't understand why it would have to be eternal for it to not sting.
Quote
3. The portrayal of a "Chump God" who's character does not conform to the standard attributes of an all powerful, all knowing, and all just God.
Not sure how this works. If anything, ET displays a "Chump God" who is overcome by man (and Satan's) will and a God that only manages to save a small percentage of His creation. The ET view shows poor planning on God's part if that's the case. IMO, and all-knowing, al powerful, and all just God fits the UR model MUCH better.
The more I study UR the more the objections and common arguments against it seem totally absurd to me.
I think that might be one of the weakest rebuttals to UR I have ever read. It's obvious he knows very little about UR. Lets go through this...
Concerning the problem of free will, as others have pointed out, if all are saved, even if they don't want to be saved, then what does this do to the idea of free will? It makes God into a God who so loved his robots, that he programmed them so that no matter what they did, their programming would force them to be in His loving presence for all eternity, regardless of how they felt about Him. They are either brainwashed or forced against their will into this position. Either option paints a problematic picture of God.
Lets approach this from his assumption...everyone has complete and utter free will. I will not debate the point of free will because that would a violation of board policy. So, lets just assume we all have "free will". First, how free are we really? From my understanding, most Christian's believe we were born as slaves in sin. We were born into bondage unable to do good, choose good or do anything outside of self. We are born broken, cards stacked against us and the large portion of the Christian church wants us to believe these people are free? None of us without the power of God can come to him. This is an act of grace and not will. Would the church have me believe these people deserve the same fate as satan? So, satan who lived with God, not born into slavery sets himself as God's enemy and rebels. This makes no sense even if you believe people "choose" this for themselves. In my mind, this would be the definition of injustice. It certainly wouldn't meet agape love standards.
Ethically speaking, if all are saved in the end, then there is really no point in wasting time with religion because you're all going to the same place anyways. Why waste time trying to live a boring "pure" life when you could be partying it up? God's gonna save us all after all so why waste time with all the jazz? If it sounds like I'm being silly, I'm not. This seems to be the most serious problem of universalism since it makes all belief and actions pointless. There's no reason to be a Christian, no reason to even accept Christ in the first place, and absolutely no reason to even preach Christ. All are saved. Relax and enjoy life. Heck, who needs revelation!?
Ask this person, "if you knew everyone would be saved would you turn from God and party it up"? If he answers no and tells you why then he just refuted his own point. Does he think he is special, and gives that little of credit to others? If he said yes, then I would have to wonder what value a pure fear relationship is to this man. If you love God, why would you turn your back on him just because you won't burn in hell? That's not even getting into all the positive, and wonderful reasons we should want relationship with our maker in this life. This also fails to mention, that Gehenna is a place to be feared. Jesus warned us about it for a reason. Coming to Christ now is certainly less painful than Gehenna.
Finally, universalism paints a picture of God as "The Great Chump" or pushover of the universe who allows humanity to walk all over him and yet still saves them because he has no backbone, no justice, but just a misguided "love". Neither of these versions of God can hold up to the God revealed to us in Scripture, not to mention that this starts to paint a picture of a being who might not even qualify as "God" in the usual sense of the attributes of God, since such a God is a God of a universe that is completely out of his control and who has no ability to exercise justice since that's just mean and not very loving. So if you've got a spineless, unjust, and impotent God, can you still even call it "God"?
The great chump? This might be the worst point of the response. Agape love is unconditional. If God serves us justice...we are ALL in serious trouble. None of us deserve heaven. Justice was replaced by grace by the shed blood of Christ. His blood wasn't just for this guy...it was for us all. This doesn't mean God will just allow anyone in any shape to enter the gates. I do not believe that. But, Gehenna fire doesn't sound like a chump move to me. It sounds like purifying correction of a loving Father. The fact that this gentleman believes agape love, and purifying correction is "spineless" is very telling to me.
So in the end, these UR folks are just another universalist group. I sympathize with them as I do with everyone who struggles with hell--and who doesn't? But in the end, this belief is just plain heretical. As Christians, we need to come to terms with God's sovereignty, God's justice, God's wrath, and not try to make an idol out of God to ease our fears. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Can we even say we know the God of Scripture if we don't know the fear of Him?
Sounds like he sympathizes, just enough that he has validated the darkest doctrine known to man with little to no scriptural support. If anyone is twisting scriptures it's the eternal torturists? How can anyone read the Bible in the english language and come up with the conclusion that people burn in hell forever. Please ask this gentleman for one...just one scripture verse that supports that dark doctrine. I have yet to find one.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on November 06, 2010, 05:08:16 PM
Concerning the problem of free will, as others have pointed out, if all are saved, even if they don't want to be saved, then what does this do to the idea of free will? It makes God into a God who so loved his robots, that he programmed them so that no matter what they did, their programming would force them to be in His loving presence for all eternity, regardless of how they felt about Him. They are either brainwashed or forced against their will into this position. Either option paints a problematic picture of God.
Replace "all" with "only the elect" and you have a pretty good description of Calvinism...
Ask your friend on that thread... To show us this free will choice in action.
Then review this in in Blibical action!
Mar 4:11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."
I see no free will choice from those seeking the truth...!
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it , and the rest were hardened;
Read the verses again, seekers of God... not given! The chosen... given!
Eph 1:11 In Christ we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will
Net Commentary: tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 2:26-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.
Analytical Literal Translation (e-sword, ALT) Eph 1:11 in Him in whom also we were appointed by lot [or, obtained an inheritance], having been predestined according to the purpose [or, plan] of the One supernaturally working all [things] according to the counsel [or, intention] of His will,
Free will? To do what?
Let's read the truth...
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Just like Mark 4:11-12!!!
Then tell him to pay attention...
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
Col 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Tit 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
My Friend... Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been granted [the gift] to grant as a favor for Christ's sake not only to believe inHim, but also to suffer in His behalf."
Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [ the gift of] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works, lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] For we are God's handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].
Then tell him to stop letting the platonic doctrine of Hell prevent him from seeing the coming Kingdom. The Chosen of God! He will have no anwer to the scripture above. Either accept Calvinism or God's purpose of the coming kingdom in relation to U.R. :wink1:
Paul
Others above have given very good answers. Let me give some brief responses:
Quote
1. The problem of free will if all are saved.
- define what you mean by free will. You are assuming we have it. Paul Hazelwood's answer above was bang on.
- who in their right mind "doesn't want to be saved"?!?!? LOL its insane if you think about it. As if someone wants to be tortured for all eternity...
Quote
2. The ethical problem of "why be good?" if all are saved.
- you reap what you sow
- you may as well ask "why be good?" if you have accepted Christ as your saviour - you are saved anyway.... (maybe this will expose his thinking)
Quote
3. The portrayal of a "Chump God" who's character does not conform to the standard attributes of an all powerful, all knowing, and all just God.
- I don't get this one. Typically this kind of argument stems from the idea that a perfect all powerful all-loving all-just God demands perfection, therefore everyone must be tortured. :dontknow: Yeah, I don't get it either...
Quote
Concerning the problem of free will, as others have pointed out, if all are saved, even if they don't want to be saved, then what does this do to the idea of free will? It makes God into a God who so loved his robots, that he programmed them so that no matter what they did, their programming would force them to be in His loving presence for all eternity, regardless of how they felt about Him. They are either brainwashed or forced against their will into this position. Either option paints a problematic picture of God.
Ethically speaking, if all are saved in the end, then there is really no point in wasting time with religion because you're all going to the same place anyways. Why waste time trying to live a boring "pure" life when you could be partying it up? God's gonna save us all after all so why waste time with all the jazz? If it sounds like I'm being silly, I'm not. This seems to be the most serious problem of universalism since it makes all belief and actions pointless. There's no reason to be a Christian, no reason to even accept Christ in the first place, and absolutely no reason to even preach Christ. All are saved. Relax and enjoy life. Heck, who needs revelation!?
Finally, universalism paints a picture of God as "The Great Chump" or pushover of the universe who allows humanity to walk all over him and yet still saves them because he has no backbone, no justice, but just a misguided "love". Neither of these versions of God can hold up to the God revealed to us in Scripture, not to mention that this starts to paint a picture of a being who might not even qualify as "God" in the usual sense of the attributes of God, since such a God is a God of a universe that is completely out of his control and who has no ability to exercise justice since that's just mean and not very loving. So if you've got a spineless, unjust, and impotent God, can you still even call it "God"?
So in the end, these UR folks are just another universalist group. I sympathize with them as I do with everyone who struggles with hell--and who doesn't? But in the end, this belief is just plain heretical. As Christians, we need to come to terms with God's sovereignty, God's justice, God's wrath, and not try to make an idol out of God to ease our fears. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Can we even say we know the God of Scripture if we don't know the fear of Him?
In any case, hope this helps!
The person who thinks the above falls into the trap of 99% of people - who think their will is more powerful than God's... thus the ideas about free will (1), thinking it is their own acts of goodness that matter (2), and thinking that people can walk all over God (3). Clearly this person thinks he is his own God. This is the root problem with most unbelievers...
Sorry if my summation in my previous post was a bit harsh...
Another thing to note is how the definition of the word "savior" and "salvation" changes when talking about Christianity.
If you look up and understand the meaning of salvation, you will see it is a one sided process. The reason someone needs to be saved is because they can't do it themselves.
If a fireman saves a baby from a burning house - the fireman is the savior. The baby had nothing to do with his own salvation.
If a lifeguard saves an unconscious swimmer on the bottom of the pool - the life guard is his savior. The swimmer had nothing to do with his own salvation.
But then people redefine all these words when talking about Christianity. Christ can save us, but only if we choose to accept him.
People don't seem to realize that we have as much capacity to save ourselves (from our sin) as that baby who is in a burning building or as that swimmer who is unconscious at the bottom of the pool. That is to say - there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. It is only through Christ working in us that we are saved.
Quote from: legoman on November 08, 2010, 06:37:52 PM
Sorry if my summation in my previous post was a bit harsh...
Another thing to note is how the definition of the word "savior" and "salvation" changes when talking about Christianity.
If you look up and understand the meaning of salvation, you will see it is a one sided process. The reason someone needs to be saved is because they can't do it themselves.
If a fireman saves a baby from a burning house - the fireman is the savior. The baby had nothing to do with his own salvation.
If a lifeguard saves an unconscious swimmer on the bottom of the pool - the life guard is his savior. The swimmer had nothing to do with his own salvation.
But then people redefine all these words when talking about Christianity. Christ can save us, but only if we choose to accept him.
People don't seem to realize that we have as much capacity to save ourselves (from our sin) as that baby who is in a burning building or as that swimmer who is unconscious at the bottom of the pool. That is to say - there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. It is only through Christ working in us that we are saved.
:thumbsup:
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: legoman on November 08, 2010, 06:37:52 PM
Sorry if my summation in my previous post was a bit harsh...
Another thing to note is how the definition of the word "savior" and "salvation" changes when talking about Christianity.
If you look up and understand the meaning of salvation, you will see it is a one sided process. The reason someone needs to be saved is because they can't do it themselves.
If a fireman saves a baby from a burning house - the fireman is the savior. The baby had nothing to do with his own salvation.
If a lifeguard saves an unconscious swimmer on the bottom of the pool - the life guard is his savior. The swimmer had nothing to do with his own salvation.
But then people redefine all these words when talking about Christianity. Christ can save us, but only if we choose to accept him.
People don't seem to realize that we have as much capacity to save ourselves (from our sin) as that baby who is in a burning building or as that swimmer who is unconscious at the bottom of the pool. That is to say - there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. It is only through Christ working in us that we are saved.
:thumbsup: I love this analogy.
I believe in free will and judgment to come, having been created within a lesser sphere of the Father's universal foreknowledge and sovereign will. I believe it is a divine paradox we cannot see through, veiled in the hidden wisdom of God. "How shall the clay say to the potter, 'Why have you made me like this!'" "Who has known the mind of the Lord."
There is much to be saved from Today and in the ages to come. Death, the torment of fear, inner darkness of hatred and lust, the bitter pain of unforgiveness. Choose you this day whom you shall serve.... If my people who are called by My name...... Who warned you to flee the wrath to come?.
I also believe YHWH causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will- in a process that will culminate in ultimate victory. In the end, every choice will be subjected to the feet of Christ, who chose freely to give His life for all. This is the glorious freedom of the sons of God that all creation will be reborn into(Romans 8) We are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God who knows the end from the beginning- but it is not given to us to see as He sees..... we are called to seek and press in and answer the voice that calls from the wilderness, "Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight."
As we grow in trust and faith and rest in His grace, we begin to see more clearly and deeply into the will of God, and we learn to rest in the finished work, and His purposes begin to arise and are finished in us. "Fixing your eyes on Jesus the author and finisher of our faith". All things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose, for all those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
But the real problem the adversaries have is they don't believe the Word of God as they claim to. The Word says that all things will be summed up in Christ. The Word says God will be all in all. The Word says, Behold I am making all things new. Peter preached the restitution of all things from the beginning at Pentecost.
Act 3:19-21 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Paul proclaimed it in almost every epistle he wrote. Especially in Ephesians and Romans and 1 Corinthians in which there are a couple dozen verses of detailed explanations of UR.
Col 1:15-20 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (16) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. (17) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (18) He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. (19) For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, (20) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
There are so many verses that talk about the ultimate reconciliation of all. Unfortunately, some who teach UR try to excise out of the scriptures all the warnings about the consequences of sin and since the Holy Spirit does not bear witness to that kind of teaching.....it slows down the process of restoration. All we can do is proclaim the glad tidings and study to show ourselves workmen worthy to be approved. The Lord knows who will hear, but we don't, so we must make the most of our stewardship and labor as faithful husbandmen.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Peace, John
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
The commentor sounds very angry at the possibility that "lesser people" may attain salvation. Calling God a "chump" for loving ALL of His creation? Negating free will? It implies no such thing at all.....all that UR posits is that based on Biblical interpretation, one thing that is a given is that HE (who knows the end from the beginning) sees that in the end EVERY knee will bow, ALL will be saved. Does the fact that our earthly bodies are resigned to almost certainly experience death negate free will....since we have no choice but to die in the end? You make the choices you want to make all through life, but you die anyways. How long you live, how well you live, possibly even how you die.....you are free to influence these things....but you will die (barring His return in your lifetime). You are free to make your own choices in life, but God knows the choice you will make in the end.