How does the doctrine of Hell affect our modern world

[Universalist Catholic]

As we know, in the past, most historians will tell us that the motivation for much of the religious brutality in the past was motivated in the doctrine of Hell.  However many think that the Church systems abused the Doctrine for personal gain, in order to justify violence, and cruelty.  However do you believe that this doctrine still yields bad fruits?
First thing I personally think of is Al Quaeda, terrorist attacks, Westboro Baptist Church, and the Ku Klux Klan for modern day fruits of strong beliefs in Hellfire. 

[Quaesitor]

There are countless casualities of the doctrine of hell and not just people; the love of God, forgiveness, peace, tolerance, fellowship, etc.
I have yet to see LIFE in a church, not the fake life I knew before but the LIFE i have since God opened my eyes to His LOVE.

[WhiteWings]

As we know, in the past, most historians will tell us that the motivation for much of the religious brutality in the past was motivated in the doctrine of Hell.  However many think that the Church systems abused the Doctrine for personal gain, in order to justify violence, and cruelty.

Religion is/and was very often used as a political tool. Constantine is a good example of that. The Roman empire was vast with many different cultures. Something was needed to make all conquered territories feel at home with mother Rome.
So in a way it gave rest, unity and peace. But ofcourse it was also simply used to motivate armies at war.
So very often highly politically motivated. The cruelty, and lust for power always existed. The only diffrenece was that first things were done because the king said so and later because God said so.

However do you believe that this doctrine still yields bad fruits?
First thing I personally think of is Al Quaeda, terrorist attacks, Westboro Baptist Church, and the Ku Klux Klan for modern day fruits of strong beliefs in Hellfire.

I think that are several questions packed in one.
Do the KKK members love blacks but only hunt them down because it's commanded in the Bible? I think the hate was first and looking for something in the Bible to support the hate was second. So the Bible has nothing to do with it.
Terrorists. There are always braindead people that can be easily manipulated. I think the bombers often truely believe they do a good thing. I think it's also highly political in most cases. Stir up hate against Isreal and the people forget what a mess it's in their own country
Would it matter if there was no ET or religion at all. For the people I think it would make no differenece. For the leadership the cost of supressing the people would have been higher and the empires smaller.

But on a personal level I think ET add to the agnony of people. It's spiritual oppression on top of the wordly oppression. One can flee from oppressors or pay the taxes to makes them go away. But ET is always in your mind.

Summary: ET at best adds a little agony but in mostly is just another type of bad fruit. Another tool of the oppressors.

[Universalist Catholic]

To be perfectly honest, I do not know if people show bad fruits because of the teaching of Hell, or if the Teaching of Hell is used to help further justify their bad fruits.  Either way, I know one thing.  The Hellfire doctrine is doing absolutely no service to our world. 

[shawn]

Not sure I can completely agree with that sentiment.  ET is what got me into church services.  It was my initial motivation to read my Bible and seek God.  I feared hell, and didn't want to go there.  Through that God brought me maturity through relationship and gave me the confidence to look/seek upon the things of Biblical interpretation that didn't make sense to me.  In that I found teachings of ED and UR.  It was a process and I believe God even used the teaching of ET to initiate the process.

[WhiteWings]

If ET preaching is so effective, why didn't Jesus use it?
Or does God want to be 'found' because of lies?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Fear in the Master's hand is just another tool. If He wants you to come to Him, He's not above letting fear push you the rest of the way there. That's how He got me, but I wouldn't say it was fear of going to hell that did it (although I know that works on many) but rather my up close and personal meeting with "hell" one night.   :mshock: :laughing7:

Either way, it's a win/win situation as He draws us to Himself. Blessings....

[shawn]

If ET preaching is so effective, why didn't Jesus use it?
Or does God want to be 'found' because of lies?

You don't believe God can use everything for his purposes?

[thinktank]

I think both of you make valued points. The problem with hell though is that is tends to dominate ones focus. I.e Believe in Jesus or your going to hell, this message is what most hell fire proponents discuss/teach, but Jesus did not talk much about hell, in fact most of his preaching particularly the book of Mathew is about the end days and the coming of his kingdom.

[Nil Recurring]

I suppose ET teachings could serve some purpose in initially bringing people to the gospel, but do we really want people coming to God through nothing but fear? Is that true faith?

I do agree though; God can use anything to His purpose, and we have a duty to reach out to those tormented by the concepts brought forth in the ET doctrine.

[micah7:9]

1Jn 4:8  He who is destitute of love has never had any knowledge of God; because God is love. 

I heard a lutheran(I was one once) minister and a well known one at that, on a sunday morning some time ago, as I was twirlin the dial, as I was prone to do and I stopped when this fella started talking about God sending people to hell.
He said something like, God loves everyone all Hi creation, but it His children do not accept His Son Jesus Christ, even tho they are good people in the sense of how good, moral, and virtuous people are, because He loves them he will send them to an eternal hell to suffer forever.

Now I look up again at the verse of 1John 4:8 and I read God is love. no matter how I cut and disect love, I cannot find the kind of love that that lutheran minister brought forth for souls that He, God loves. Go figger. I know, I KNOW that no matter how bad a son could be, A MOTHER could not show love with a penalty of eternal hell fire burning of the flesh and body with out a stopping for an unnumbered ammout of time when her son did an unspeakable thing, I dont care what it was her son did! But the God and Father of Jesus Christ will do this to His disobedient children....I do not accept this thought.

[PaoloNuevo]

:cloud9: Fear in the Master's hand is just another tool. If He wants you to come to Him, He's not above letting fear push you the rest of the way there. That's how He got me, but I wouldn't say it was fear of going to hell that did it (although I know that works on many) but rather my up close and personal meeting with "hell" one night.   :mshock: :laughing7:

Either way, it's a win/win situation as He draws us to Himself. Blessings....

Hell accomplished nothing about making me understand "God is love..." but the Truth of UR allowed me to see the Love of God through Jesus Christ.

[Taffy]

:cloud9: Fear in the Master's hand is just another tool. If He wants you to come to Him, He's not above letting fear push you the rest of the way there. That's how He got me, but I wouldn't say it was fear of going to hell that did it (although I know that works on many) but rather my up close and personal meeting with "hell" one night.   :mshock: :laughing7:

Either way, it's a win/win situation as He draws us to Himself. Blessings....

Hell accomplished nothing about making me understand "God is love..." but the Truth of UR allowed me to see the Love of God through Jesus Christ.

:icon_flower:

Hi Paolo :icon_flower:
All circumstances differ , The Lord as HE will s,bringing ALL men to GLORY- Many Paths- ONE TRUE destination :icon_flower:

[shawn]

I suppose ET teachings could serve some purpose in initially bringing people to the gospel, but do we really want people coming to God through nothing but fear? Is that true faith?

I do agree though; God can use anything to His purpose, and we have a duty to reach out to those tormented by the concepts brought forth in the ET doctrine.

Do we want people coming to God through nothing but pure fear?  It's not really about what we want.  It's about what God wants.  Fear has it's place.  We are supposed to fear God.  I know that isn't a popular notion but it's scriptural.  Is fear true faith?  Fear has it's place in true faith.  If I fear God it's because I truly believe he will bring consequences into my life if I sin...then I have faith in God's power to not only exist but to discipline.

Young children are scared of everything.  As they mature that fear subsides and they become bolder.  As they hit those teenage years they become vocal and think they know everything.  But, most parents hope that they mature and learn to quiet their tongue, live productive and healthy lives.

In the same way, I believe God drags people to him in a variety of ways.  For many fear is the only motivating factor for change...to serve God.  As young Christians we are very fearful...going to hell, not living up to, etc and so on.  In this process God reveals his nature to us and we begin to love.  We begin to have relationship not based on and motivated by fear.  We become more knowledgeable on scripture, God's nature and can be prone to vocalizing to a fault before we have reached maturity of wisdom.  But, we hope to further mature into those who are slow to talk, quick to listen, who bear fruit and serve God out of love rather than fear.

I believe God uses ALL for his purposes including the concept of ET.

[Taffy]

I believe God uses ALL for his purposes including the concept of ET.

:icon_flower:
HI Shawn

Indeed -- what ever Man proposes- be it GOOD or evil will conclude the same :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

[micah7:9]

AMEN! :bigGrin:

[Universalist Catholic]

Im wondering what you mean by fear?  I dont really subscribe to the Judicial fear like one would have towards the Government.  I tend to see the Bible in a more natural light, where the consequences come to us naturally, not necessarily imposed in a judiciary matter.  I believe thats where the Western Churches fail, and the Eastern Churches thrive.  The western Churches based their theology moreso on Roman Judiciary tradition.  If you committed the crime, the Government was obligated to punish you for it.  Thats how the Western Churches still primarily think.  That Legally, God had to punish Adam and all of Humanity to Hell for their sin.  But there was a loophole, a perfect man who was sinless died, then the curse could be reversed.  Yes, this is all part of how the Universe was created in a perfect natural law and order.  So by natural judgments, it would seem more like the sinner would learn from his sinful ways by the effects of his sins.  Like being a hooker has its own consequences, like STD's, difficulty with relationships, ect.  However that would create a healthy fear of avoiding prostitution.  With the Judiciary system, you only learn to fear the person imposing the penalty, often times leading to resentment.  However there is another type of fear, a fear of Hurting God.  Which fits more into a natural consequence, considering its natural for someone to be hurt by disappointing them, so we would want to not dissapoint them.  And about the wage of sin being death.  Sin brings corruption, and death spiritually and physically.  Today, it appears like the Roman Catholic Church has embraced more Eastern Orthodox theology.  However they still both are missing the mark with Eternal Punishment.  Another thing I can think of is that Thomas Aquintas stated that a sin against an infinite being merited infinite punishment.  Seems pretty absurd and not to mention nowhere stated in scriptures, or even possible to defent.  If God wants all humanity to be saved, what good does it do for him if he has to punish one forever?  And how does who the sin is directed against still change the nature of the sin?  In Leviticus, all the laws stated exact repayment for the sins committed.  Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.  No partiality against who the sin was committed against.  Plus levitical laws remind me of the common courtesy of atonement for ones misdeeds.  Like if you accidentally broke someones windows, you owe them the money to pay to get it fixed.  Would anyone win if the consequence was letting them break your windows. 

[shawn]

Im wondering what you mean by fear?  I dont really subscribe to the Judicial fear like one would have towards the Government.  I tend to see the Bible in a more natural light, where the consequences come to us naturally, not necessarily imposed in a judiciary matter.  I believe thats where the Western Churches fail, and the Eastern Churches thrive.  The western Churches based their theology moreso on Roman Judiciary tradition.  If you committed the crime, the Government was obligated to punish you for it.  Thats how the Western Churches still primarily think.  That Legally, God had to punish Adam and all of Humanity to Hell for their sin.  But there was a loophole, a perfect man who was sinless died, then the curse could be reversed.  Yes, this is all part of how the Universe was created in a perfect natural law and order.  So by natural judgments, it would seem more like the sinner would learn from his sinful ways by the effects of his sins.  Like being a hooker has its own consequences, like STD's, difficulty with relationships, ect.  However that would create a healthy fear of avoiding prostitution.  With the Judiciary system, you only learn to fear the person imposing the penalty, often times leading to resentment.  However there is another type of fear, a fear of Hurting God.  Which fits more into a natural consequence, considering its natural for someone to be hurt by disappointing them, so we would want to not dissapoint them.  And about the wage of sin being death.  Sin brings corruption, and death spiritually and physically.  Today, it appears like the Roman Catholic Church has embraced more Eastern Orthodox theology.  However they still both are missing the mark with Eternal Punishment.  Another thing I can think of is that Thomas Aquintas stated that a sin against an infinite being merited infinite punishment.  Seems pretty absurd and not to mention nowhere stated in scriptures, or even possible to defent.  If God wants all humanity to be saved, what good does it do for him if he has to punish one forever?  And how does who the sin is directed against still change the nature of the sin?  In Leviticus, all the laws stated exact repayment for the sins committed.  Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.  No partiality against who the sin was committed against.  Plus levitical laws remind me of the common courtesy of atonement for ones misdeeds.  Like if you accidentally broke someones windows, you owe them the money to pay to get it fixed.  Would anyone win if the consequence was letting them break your windows.

I think this is a very good post.  How I see it is this...God created this world with laws.  These laws direct cause and effect relationships.  If you eat too much, you will grow to obesity, likely get diabetes, suffer and die from your sin of gluttony.  That is unless you turn from your overeating and repent through heart and action.  I can't think of a sin that does not have consequences in such a fashion.

With that said, I believe God will also bring additional correction into the lives of believers.  He corrects who he loves.  When my child disobeys I hand out a punishment.  It is for corrective not judgicial purposes.  I have no need for them to pay for their actions.  I only want them to learn from their actions.

This is how I understand God today.  I believe there are natural cause and effect consequences of sin.  I also believe there are additional corrective measures the Lord uses to redirect us.  I believe this is done from agape love rather than a judicial need for payment.  Our payment has been made in FULL.