How can we get true salvation?

[70sevens]

Hi Sarah,

Thank you for staying around.
And also for the frank expression that my response sounded bitter.
Sorry for that.

I feel your warm-heartedness, and I sense that here almost everybody has such feeling.
In fact, I also have same feeling in mind. Sure God also sympathizes.
We wish to love our neighbors, caring and comforting each other in the name of Jesus like this case.
Good. We have to do this, and we are doing so as much as possible.
That's how we lead our life as pious Christians in general.

But that's not all.
In fact, Jesus is hidden to the eyes of those believers yet.
In order to get the true salvation, we have to get the true revelation of Jesus.

You said earlier that you wanted to see Him in me.
Yes, let me explain HIM who is in me for this case.

My bitterness came from the sincere love and was inevitable.
I wished to see whether someone reached the time when he could meet Jesus.
My response was given with that point in mind, so maybe it sounded bitter.
But if the one is really in need to meet Jesus such bitterness cannot be an obstacle.
On the contrary,
the bitterness would work as a tester for him whether he really wanted to know Jesus.
If someone desperately wanted Jesus, he would come to Him in spite of the bitterness.

You will recall the story of Canaan Woman in Matthew Chapter 15.
She wanted her demon-possessed daughter healed so desperately,
and asked Jesus for healing.
But Jesus said unto her that "it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."
I guess this response is bitterer.
But she said "Truth, Lord: Yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
And yes, her daughter was healed by Jesus.

Spiritually, we all have daughters like this in our life.
If someone feel so desperate, he will come to Jesus regardless of all kinds of obstacles.
And he will have his daughter cured finally.

If we meet Jesus, we should not expect His tender-heartedness all the time.
Look at those disciples. They had to face the rebukes of Jesus almost everyday.
I am showing who HE really is.
This is HE who is in me for now.

God bless.

Chung

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

PAUL noted that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved 70!  How could he make such a statement when so very FEW JEWS believed in CHRIST ...then OR now? (Rom 11:26)

All Israel is saved Willie, I agree.  The real question then becomes who is the real Israel??

For are we not told by the apostles that not all Jews are Jews, (but some are of the synagogue of Satan), and not all Israel is Israel?!

(In this instance I will name the verses you refer to, but in the future if you wish to discuss with me, please name your references or you will not get a response)...

(Rev 2:9 and Rev 3:9).... I believe these two verses are your references...   :Chinscratch:

In my opinion the first question to be answered should be: WHAT is SATAN?  The Hebrew word SATAN means ADVERSARY...

The Jews which say that are Jews and are NOT are of the synagogue (assembly/church/spiritual understanding and teaching) of the ADVERSARY...

ISRAEL is the name given to the PEOPLE of GOD... His ELECT... and they cannot be both the PEOPLE of GOD representing Him, ...and PEOPLE of ADVERSITY, representing IT...  There are ADVERSE people in the "church" today... which claim to bring the GOSPEL, but instead, line it with MORE BAD NEWS than GOOD... that they might UPHOLD their, (here it comes, ready or not!) ...TRADITION!

If one is named of the synagogue of satan, they are named as ADVERSARY to the PEOPLE of God... Peter was addressed as SATAN by CHRIST... does that mean that PETER ...IS... SATAN, ...PT?  Of course he isn't... and neither are many of those which are named JEWS, ...actually true followers of GOD... rather they persist in their TRADITION, ...which is ADVERSE (satan) to God...

CHRIST named the PHARISEES as such (Mt 15:6 / Mk 7:13) when He noted that they UPHELD their TRADITIONS above the Word of GOD, and in doing so, rendered the Word of GOD to be of none effect (neutralized/powerless) in their experience...

This is not to say that GOD had decided to exclude these Pharisees from SALVATION, for PAUL also said:  BLINDNESS in PART [pharisee's and their followers] is happened in ISRAEL... so ISRAEL was named BLIND to CHRIST and to His Saving effort, for the moment... and are TEMPORARILY of the organization/church or synagogue of the ADVERSARY

Romans 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

It is impossible now to determine who is of Israel via geneologies, therefore it is in vain to worry or concern ourselves with geneologies or 'family trees' now.

Let's backtrack a taste... the 2 referenced Scriptures are NOTED in a Book of SYMBOLISM... which means they are not to be understood as "literal"...

Your observance appears to be literal here PT, because of the intermingling of races, the bloodlines are obscured or lost... that does not mean that GOD does not have TRACK of them... they are just obscured or lost to you, me or any other human observer...

Furthermore,... to try to pinpoint the true Jerusalem from above by a title or cognomen such as 'Israel' or 'Jew' is utterly futile.  Not by flesh and blood but by the Spirit of God.

Otay!   :wacko2:

Romans 2:
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We all must believe in Jesus to see salvation.

ALL will bro... :grouppray:   :declare:

EVERY knee shall bow and TONGUE confess... every "BELIEVER" was a "NON-BELIEVER" prior to GOD's Revelation of CHRIST in their lives...  :dontknow:

Peace...  :high5:

In  JESUS...willieH  :bgdance: 

[Sarah]

Hey 70sevens,

I thought Locoman sounded bitter....sorry for the confusion.

If we meet Jesus, we should not expect His tender-heartedness all the time.
Look at those disciples. They had to face the rebukes of Jesus almost everyday.
I am showing who HE really is.
This is HE who is in me for now.

When I say I need to see Christ in others...it isn't a nice person for the sake of being nice....but a people who allow the Spirit of God to speak through them.  The words spoken are not intellectual knowledge but living words.  You gave the illustration of the woman with the demon-possessed daughter to show what we must do to be healed/saved.  That reminds me of the woman with the issue of blood and a preacher hammering away that we must 'press in'...pray, fast, tongues....guilt, guilt, guilt. 

I think this topic is interesting because it hits a nerve.  Iv'e been out of church for awhile now, I don't have the morning prayer I used to have, nor the bible study, nor do I communicate much with anyone who thinks outside the religious box built for them. 

Awhile ago I felt so full of the 'fruits of the spirit'...love, joy, peace, etc., etc.  And if the fruits of the spirit are 'being saved'...well then I guess I'm not right now.  And I am concerned with how to be 'saved'.  I don't believe in hell after-life, so that argument is moot to me, and it actally bores me.  Salvation concerns me now....and the after-life...well that part is in the hands of a loving creator.


I want a tangible word if I'm doing something wrong, if it is a dry spell, whatever.  I could provide the answer a dime a dozen out of my intellect, but what is the truth?  If you don't have the fruits are you then not 'saved'?  Or is saved a term that we are misconstruing?  What is true salvation?


Love, Sarah

[70sevens]

Dear Sarah,

I am afraid that we have some communication problems here.
First, Sorry for misunderstanding. I thought you were talking to me that I produced a bitter response. 
Second, as for the Canaan woman case, I did not mean that we must do something to be healed/saved.
Let me explain this point to help your understanding.

For example, if God says to us
1)"Hungry person will do anything to fill his stomach."
This statement is not a commandment.
It is quite natural for the hungry person to do so.
Using your terms, he is not doing for the sake of doing.
He really does it. I did mean this.

But when we apply the above sentence to us,
we tend to read as  2) "We must do anything to fill our stomach"
Traditional preachers understand it as laws
and they are "hammering away that we must 'press in'" as you say.

Ironically,
you also construed what I said about Canaan woman as traditional preachers did.
In fact, even though you think that you have escaped from them,
but still you are in the same dimension with them. 

Nevertheless, if someone understands it(1) as such(2) and act accordingly,
it is up to him and it is his share. God will wait until he realizes.

The point is here.
Are we hungry? Are we really hungry persons?
If yes, we will automatically and naturally do everything to fill, like Canaan woman.
Those deeds are in God's life circle. So we will get our stomach filled at last.
This is the meaning of the salvation, that is of God, not of our works.

If we are not hungry, then to our eyes the words of 1) would be read as "we must do anything to fill"
So we have been doing so eagerly. But these are not true deeds. It is a hypocrisy.
Without noticing this we are putting all our efforts to the salvation, in vain.
We will carry on these vain works/deeds until we realizes that we are in a wrong direction.

So the question is this :
Are we hungry really? Do we realize that we have demon-possessed daughter?
If not, let's wait until we find ourselves hungry, and of Canaan woman.
Then Jesus will be revealed to us, and be saved.

I feel the limitations to explain on on-line from the beginning.
If you are really interested in TRUE Salvation,
please take some time to read my posts done in discussion with SeekerSA from the start.
(Where has he gone now by the way, I wonder?) 
If you can digest my sayings there,
then our communications would be a lot more easier.
I will give you more materials to you after that. 


Quote------------------------
I think this topic is interesting because it hits a nerve.  Iv'e been out of church for awhile now,
I don't have the morning prayer I used to have, nor the bible study, nor do I communicate much with
anyone who thinks outside the religious box built for them. 
-------------------------------

Rather than being alone, I suggest you to go to Church and listen to what God says to your mind.
Even in traditional teachings, as you know, there are God's messages embedded.
And in God's time you will be led to the place you really want.


Quote-------------------------
Awhile ago I felt so full of the 'fruits of the spirit'...love, joy, peace, etc., etc. 
And if the fruits of the spirit are 'being saved'...well then I guess I'm not right now. 
And I am concerned with how to be 'saved'.  I don't believe in hell after-life, so that argument is moot to me,
and it actually bores me. 
Salvation concerns me now....and the after-life...well that part is in the hands of a loving creator.
-------------------------------

How about now? Do you have the "fruits of the spirit" still.
Or was it 'here-today gone-tomorrow' thing?
When you are saved, you will have the Spirit, and the fruit of the Spirit would be love, joy, peace, etc.
This salvation and Spirit are irrevocable.
I am not talking about after-life salvation. If in this sense, you are already saved.
I am not here to threaten people by saying ET and/or hell.
Rather, I am here to lead people to get out of there.


Quote-------------------------
I want a tangible word if I'm doing something wrong, if it is a dry spell, whatever. 
I could provide the answer a dime a dozen out of my intellect, but what is the truth? 
If you don't have the fruits are you then not 'saved'? 
Or is saved a term that we are misconstruing?  What is true salvation?
--------------------------------

Do not try to recognize the salvation by itself, or by love, joy, peace.
As we have no eyes on that, so we cannot distinguish them.
We will only be going on an endless circle.
Let's try to recognize the salvation and/or fruits, by meeting Jesus.
But again, Jesus is not tangible either.

Nevertheless, Jesus will come in a tangible way to an individual who has prodigal son's experience.
When Jesus comes, we then will know what is the salvation, what is the love, joy, peace, etc.
So meet the Jesus, that's the only solution. When He comes, He will explain everything to you. 

[John 4:25-26]
25/ The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes,
he will explain everything to us."
26/ Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

I guess you are doing OK, being ripe (John 4:35).
It's time to meet Jesus.
I understand you already know Jesus more than anybody else does.
So you would say in mind 'Jesus again?'
Yes, we need to meet true Jesus.
By meeting true Jesus, we will be getting true salvation.
You are in this process, if you continue.


God bless.

[Sarah]

Ironically,
you also construed what I said about Canaan woman as traditional preachers did.
In fact, even though you think that you have escaped from them,
but still you are in the same dimension with them. 

Nevertheless, if someone understands it(1) as such(2) and act accordingly,
it is up to him and it is his share. God will wait until he realizes.

I see what you mean.  Hard to hear, but definity true.

How about now? Do you have the "fruits of the spirit" still.
Or was it 'here-today gone-tomorrow' thing?
When you are saved, you will have the Spirit, and the fruit of the Spirit would be love, joy, peace, etc.
This salvation and Spirit are irrevocable.
I am not talking about after-life salvation. If in this sense, you are already saved.
I am not here to threaten people by saying ET and/or hell.
Rather, I am here to lead people to get out of there.

For years I have walked in joy, and peace with Him, and lately He is silent...and I hate it.

You spoke of evil and good trees....honestly that is confusing.  So if I am a good tree, whatever I do is good, and if I am a bad tree whatever I do is evil....regardless of appearance?

Do not try to recognize the salvation by itself, or by love, joy, peace.
As we have no eyes on that, so we cannot distinguish them.
We will only be going on an endless circle.
Let's try to recognize the salvation and/or fruits, by meeting Jesus.
But again, Jesus is not tangible either.

this seems to contradict the good/tree evil tree thing....I guess I will need to have Jesus explain it to me.  :sigh: ...again.

[Taffy]

this seems to contradict the good/tree evil tree thing....I guess I will need to have Jesus explain it to me.   ...again.

The Best Teacher I know of Sarah :icon_flower: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance:

Blessings
Taffy

[70sevens]

Dear Sarah,

1. Doing and Being

Quote-----------------------
You spoke of evil and good trees....honestly that is confusing. 
So if I am a good tree, whatever I do is good,
and if I am a bad tree whatever I do is evil....regardless of appearance?
------------------------------

Yes,
That's what Jesus said, not me.
You would remember Jeremiah saying this :

[Jer 13:23]
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?
then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Why we do evil is not matter of doing, but matter of being.

Appearance?
Charity, prayer, fasting, donation, love, peace, non-robbery, good deeds, non-adultery, etc
Do you think these are good (fruits)?
No. It can be evil (fruits) according to the doers.
If these are done by Pharisees (evil trees), those are evil (Luke 18:11).

[Mat 6:1]
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them.
If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

They do acts of righteousness, and yet they are evildoers.

And what do you think of Jesus in the following cases?
"You snakes! You brood of vipers!"
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire."

Appearance wise, are those not evil?
Is HE good tree or evil tree in this case?
Is HE good tree but evil tree temporarily, as someone said?
This is not possible at all in the universe.

Jesus is good tree. So no matter how appearances look like, they are good.
All are done out of love to save people.
So is the man who belongs to HIM by born-again.

[1John3:9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

2. Contradiction

Quote :70sevens:------------------------------
Do not try to recognize the salvation by itself, or by love, joy, peace.
As we have no eyes on that, so we cannot distinguish them.
We will only be going on an endless circle.
Let's try to recognize the salvation and/or fruits, by meeting Jesus.
But again, Jesus is not tangible either.
---------------------------------------------------
Quote : Sarah-----------------------------------
this seems to contradict the good/tree evil tree thing....
I guess I will need to have Jesus explain it to me.   ...again.
---------------------------------------------------

I don't see contradiction. I already explained it there. Or do you mean otherwise?
Again,
the problem is that the spiritually blind men could not realize that they are blind.
So when they hear Jesus saying  "Ye shall know them by their fruits"
They try to distinguish/know the fruits, but in vain.
They are forgetting that they are blind.
Contradiction comes from the legalistic eyes.

"Knowing the fruits" would be natural, if we are able to see.
So do not try to know, but try to see.
I am saying this to those who have ears to hear.

3. Darkness

Experience shows us that both traditional and UR teachings have failed
to open our spiritual eyes.
So we do not know yet where we are, where we are heading for during the course of salvation.
We do not know even whether we have to know these things.
We are in the total darkness.
We got to get out of there by following true Jesus.

4. Ask God

You said HE was silent lately. Do you know why?
HE wishes to humble you to listen to me.
Unless otherwise, out of pride being in HIS presence,
you would not want to listen to me, an unknown man from the East.

I would not ask you to believe me.
But you are kindly requested to ask God who is in you,
whether '70sevens' is sent by HIM, especially for you.
HE will respond one way or the other.


All the best,

[70sevens]

I wanted to talk about the true Salvation by Jesus.
I was surprised that not many people here were enthusiastic to know about the salvation.
Presumably, their thinking was that they were saved already,
or would be saved ultimately even after the present life by the merciful God.
So 'being saved' is no more their concerns. They want to have no worries.

But without salvation, men are destined to feel fundamental lack in their life.
If we feel really the lack in our life we would not dilly-dally, saying salvation is up to God's draw.

I gather that UR believers had been threatened the by the Eternal Torment
at the traditional churches, and were fed-up.
They wanted to find ways and means to escape from it.
So they studied scriptures using Hebrew and Greek day after day to oppose the traditional teachings.
And came to the conclusion that no hell, no eternal torment, no condemnation, etc.
This way, they got rid of all the uncomfortable and evil aspects (,to their eyes,) of God in the scriptures,
leaving only the good and merciful aspects (,again to their eyes,) of God.
Thus, they have created one new God, a man-made UR God.

Even though men are born sinners,
UR God believers would not be borthered at all by that fact.
They study the bible out of curiosity, and/or for fun,
or sometimes for theological thesis.

The Scriptures are showing us 'One Person' who is already around us.
So when we read the scriptures we should meet 'a Person, Jesus'
rather than being indulged in bible-study itself.

[John 5:39-40]
39/ You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life.
These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40/ yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Have you met Jesus in person through the Scriptures?
Or are you still looking for the profound meanings in there,
ignoring Jesus who is knocking on your mind.

Meet Jesus now, and be saved.
This is the God's draw.

[gatheredfragments]

Deuteronomy chapter 30

I suggest reading the entire chapter...out of every single version you can your hands on ....
and let the HOLY SPIRIT teach you...
not the desire to be 'one of the chosen'...


Deu 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20  That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.


I personally choose .....LIFE.....and i choose it for EVERYONE....not selectively...
i choose it for those that have commited crime against me and my loved ones too...
so that that criminal against GOD"S will, can be broken, changed, and restored in the love of GOD to the potential of God's desire for them....as worshippers...and servants in HIS kingdom.

[70sevens]

Poetess?

[Sarah]

o.k.  I ask and hear nothing regarding who 490 is and if he has something for me....anyway I see great truth in many of your statements.  What is the point of believing that God saves all if I am miserable...hearing nothing....seeing nothing....dead....or so it feels? 

And yet I see many statements as not true....I should go to church when no church is to be found....me as somehow further spiritually...and ur as not true.

Am I to believe that if I were a 'good tree' that anything I do is o.k?  I like to think that I am a good tree, but feel that as I sit here typing after 3 glasses of wine, and watching 3 small children who are watching t.v., I am by no means a 'good tree'.
And if I am an evil tree...well then every amount of love, and effort I have poured into these small ones is evil.  It is hard for me to believe that I am one or the other.  I know scipture probably contends with me, but let me speak to the one who wrote it....because I have a bone to pick with black and white...I'm a rather gray girl myself....but am willing to be proven wrong.

Love,
Sarah

[Peacetroll]

Here, we see the same principle of trees.
Evil deed doers =love darkness = evil trees = condemnation
Truth doers (workers in God) = love light = good trees= salvation

Chung.

Good metaphor.  I believe it regards who's spirit we are of (let us make man in OUR image...i.e. light or darkness).

The tree's are the spirits, the light and darkness of Elohim.

If we be from the Light, then our fruits will be good (and we will love Christ if/when we learn of him).

If we be of the darkness, we hate the Light (Christ), and our father is Satan (spiritually).

A good tree is not a bad tree.

Their spot is not our spot.

Their rock is not our rock.

Peace in Christ.

[70sevens]

Hello,

Glad to have you back.

Quote------------------------------
What is the point of believing that God saves all
if I am miserable...hearing nothing....seeing nothing....dead....or so it feels? 
--------------------------------------------------

That's it. Just I wanted to say to all around here.
If I am not saved, then what's the use of all being saved?
God wants only 'myself' be saved.
If I, myself, am saved, all will be saved, if we realize.

Quote----------------------------------------
And yet I see many statements as not true....I should go to church when no church is to be found....
me as somehow further spiritually...and ur as not true.
-----------------------------------------------

I knew that you took my statements selectively.
I did not say that by mistake.
Going to church will give you more opportunities to grow by fellowship, reading bible, praying, etc.,
even if that is traditional church.

Quote-----------------------------------------
And if I am an evil tree...well then every amount of love, and effort I have poured into these small ones is evil. 
It is hard for me to believe that I am one or the other.  I know scripture probably contends with me,
but let me speak to the one who wrote it....because I have a bone to pick with black and white...
I'm a rather gray girl myself....but am willing to be proven wrong.
--------------------------------------------------

As for the Good and Evil, I mentioned shortly earlier somewhere.
Our mankind's Good and Evil is what you and I commonly understand in this world.
It could be ethics and morals.
This is men's Good and Evil.

But there is God's Good and Evil.
God himself is Good.

[Mark 10:18]
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

God is the absolute 'good', and non-God is 'evil'.

'Good' is God, that is another expression of 'life'.
'Evil' is 'separation from the God', that is 'death'.

We should have bird's eye view on our life.
Think about the parable of the lost son. Luke Chapter 15, verses 11 onward.

When he was with his Father(God:Good) at home. He was a good tree.
When he went to far country leaving his Father(Good), since then he became Evil tree.
So whatever he does in far country is evil.

Think about Father's mind. Father wants to live with his son. But the son left the Father.
Apparently whatever, even worshiping the Father, the son does in far country is evil. 
He is doing evil to his Father, dying there.
Only way to put an end to that evil is going back to his Father.
But unfortunately he does not want go back and does not know how to go back. 

We are He. We all left our heavenly Father and came to this world.
By leaving the Father 'the life', we naturally are dead.
In this world, we try to do our good, but sometimes evil.
Be it good or evil, all are Evil to our God's eyes.
Because we left God, which is 'good' itself. So we are evil tree here in this world.

Now Jesus came.
What do you think HE would do to you?


May God bless.

[70sevens]

I guess my statement above is insufficient for proper understanding of the spiritual world.
To help understanding,
I wish to post  the spiritual meanings of the parable of the Lost Son in Luke 15 bit by bit.


The Parable of the Lost Son –Part 1
:  Why men are Born as Sinners?

The parable of the lost son in Luke 15 dramatically shows a course in which a person meets Jesus Christ through true repentance.  This parable hides profounder meanings than we generally know of it.  Let's get started with Luke 15:11-19.

This parable is very common to most of people whether they are Christians or not. The famous painter Rembrandt painted a picture entitled "Returning of the Lost Son" in which the father receives the younger son. Many preachers uttered many times the love of the father who gladly accepted the younger son, by quoting this text. We generally become to be thankful to the father's forgiveness and everlasting love when we hear it.  Some of us resolve to be obedient to their fathers.

However, this parable does not describe the father who welcomes the younger son with love even though he came back after having squandered his money in dissolute living.  This parable speaks us the deep truth of life.  That is, the younger son who returned to his father discloses what the true repentance towards God is, and the comparison of the younger son to the older son clearly uncovers the differences between the grace and the law.

Also, the course in which the younger son left the house of his father reveals the reason why Adam had to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which God forbids, and the fundamental reason why his descendants had to live hard lives on this earth that produces thorns and thistles.
Every word and parable in the Bible is precious and valuable, and the parable of the lost son is the most precious and valuable one of them all.  This ordinary parable has all the wonderful truths you could not find even if you had spent your whole life. 

I will explain three major topics.
First, I will describe the fundamental reason why each person leaves God and is born to be a sinner by explaining the course in which the younger son leaves the house of the father. 
Second, I will tell you what the true repentance is by quoting the return of the younger son. 
Last, I will clarify the difference between the grace and the law (which is hard to understand) by comparing the older son who stayed home and the younger son.

First of all, we will study the reason why persons are born as sinners through the parable.

....Continued...

[70sevens]

2.

Why are persons born as sinners?

First of all, we will study the reason why persons are born as sinners through the parable.

- Why did the younger son want to leave home?

Characters in this parable include a father, an older son, and a younger son.  In this instance, the father symbolizes God, the home symbolizes the kingdom of God where God abides, and the older and younger sons symbolize Jesus believers who serve God as their Father. The believers can be divided into two groups: some believers belong to the older son group who did not leave home, and other believers belong to the younger son group who left home and came back home again.

The head of the home where the younger son lives is the father.  The father as a head of household has the final decisions over all household affairs.  The father decides the household affairs, big or small, such as deciding the place to put the chest of drawers, or fixing the time to have dinner.  The sons must accept their father's decisions even though they don't agree to those decisions because they are not the head of the household.  One optional way available to them when they don't agree with him, is to leave home.

The younger son in the parable made up his mind to leave.  It was the younger son himself who decided to go out, considering that the father didn't told him to do so.  He came into conflict with the life of being obedient to the father's headship.  He disliked it.  He was not in trouble with the father regarding such the trivial problems as positioning the chest of drawers or fixing the time to have dinner.  Such problems are not so valuable or worthless as to be written in the Bible that has recorded the fundamental problems of life.  The conflict with the father that caused the younger son to leave home was fundamental.   We can read one example of that conflict in the latter part of the parable.  When the younger son had returned home, the father gladly received him and they began to be merry.  However, the older son who had been in the field got angry at his father's conduct.  He thought that it was not right for his father to celebrate the brother who had run through his father's money with harlots.  But, it is natural for the father to have festivities in that situation.  He can make room for the older son for anything else, but except the present case.  This conflict is very fundamental.  The fundamental conflict can't be settled even though one of two parts has given room to the other part.  It will remain still until it has been solved fundamentally.

The younger son wanted to be separated from his father and live an independent life instead of enduring it while undergoing the fundamental conflict.  He thought it would be better for him if could live his own individual life, and he then came to a determination.  He would have pondered many times until reaching that determination.  He would have considered fears of facing the strange world after having left home, and would have also thought that it would not be easy to return home again for fear of losing his face.  However, all these were not so serious as the life that is given under the dominion of his father. 

The younger son was able to leave his father and be independent from his father by himself because of the wisdom he had.  That is, he decided to leave home since he had wisdom by which he could do better and could lead a better life than his father had done.  He tried to have the headship, being confident that his wisdom could compare with that of his father. The wisdom of the younger son is given by nature. The wisdom that the younger son had as a son of the father has the same quality as that of the father.  Thus, they can be compared with each other.  No housedog can rise in revolt against its lord and leave him because it has no wisdom and no power at all.  We can conclude now that the younger son could have left home because he had wisdom.

-        Adam's wisdom

The course for the younger son to leave home in Luke 15 matches the course for Adam to leave the garden in Eden in Genesis.  The two courses are substantially the same.  Many of us will now wonder how the lost son and Adam are connected, when I said that the parable of the lost son and the description on Adam contain the same message.  We will find no connection between them if we read the Scriptures but only to catch superficial understanding.  However, ponder them in detail and in depth, and you will know that the lost son is equal to Adam.

As the younger son left home because of the wisdom, Adam also left God because of the wisdom.  Let me explain more of Adam' wisdom to you.  God created Adam in His image, and Adam was a very wise creature after His likeness (Ezek 28:12).  Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which God forbade and left the garden in Eden that was God's dwelling place, and in this instance, the fundamental reason for him to eat the fruit was caused by the wisdom.

As to the course for Adam to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the serpent tempted the woman, she gave it to her husband, and he did eat.  Because of the fundamental temptation by the serpent, Adam and the woman ate the fruit and walked on the way of disobedience.  They would not have eaten if it had not been for the serpent.
What was the serpent that had led them to astray? The serpent in the Scriptures symbolizes wisdom.
Genesis 3:1 says:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

In this instance, the term of 'crafty' is translated from the Hebrew word of "aruwm" which means 'wise' or 'prudent.'  The word is negative when rendered "crafty (Job 5:12 or Job 15:5) and it is positive when rendered "prudent" (Prov. 12:16, 23).  The word was naturally rendered in the negative since it was used to describe the serpent that is the common enemy (?) against all human beings.  Therefore, it is rendered 'crafty' other than 'prudent.'  Repeatedly, the original word "aruwm" can be rendered both in the positive and in the negative.  The word in this text can be put into 'prudent' if we can get rid of our negative eyes on the serpent.  Have I gone too far?  The serpent was not created in the negative.  No creatures in the world are absolutely negative, but they relatively look in the negative or positive.  Jesus was not prejudiced against the serpent.  He says it is the symbol of wisdom.

[Matt 10:16]
I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

The serpent symbolizes wisdom in the Scriptures.  Accordingly, we should read Genesis 3:1 as follows: "Now the serpent was wiser than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made" which mostly matches the biblical context.
The woman was tempted directly by the serpent, but I will call Adam to be representative of both Adam and the woman. 

Spiritually, the woman and Adam are one.
The fact that Adam was tempted by the serpent symbolizing the wisdom reveals that he had wisdom.  He agreed to what the external serpent said and then opened his heart since he had some factors of the serpent in him.  Hence, there is no need to blame the serpent as it tempted the man.  He opened his heart because he was connected to the serpent, and hence, it was Adam who was to blame.
Adam has the factors of the serpent since God created Adam to be wise. The wisdom is one of Adam's fundamental attributes inseparable from himself.  If we think the serpent is a fundamentally wicked being, it is required for us to explain how the serpent was in the garden in Eden.  However, there is no need to do so.  The serpent is the wisdom Adam has in him.  Therefore, where there is Adam, there is the serpent also, such as in heaven, on the earth, or in the garden in Eden.

Because Adam has wisdom, he comes to think of leaving the garden in Eden when God seems unacceptable to him.  That wisdom is the question.  Adam has secret confidence in him that he can do no less than God does and he can live a better life.  He thinks in the same way as the lost son did before leaving the house of the father. 
In this situation, Adam's wisdom whispers to him as follows.
"Do you know why God forbade you to eat fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?  It is because God was wary of your being like Himself, knowing both good and evil, when you eat it."
This dialogue is written in Genesis 3:

[Gen 3:4-6]
4/  "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.
5/  "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6/  When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

If Adam had thought that his wisdom would never reach that of God, the serpent would have failed to tempt him.  He would have firmly refused the suggestion by the serpent. 
"How could I...? I can never be like God even if I eat something better than the fruit of that tree."

However, Adam had wisdom, and he accordingly concluded it would be possible for him to struggle with God.  He ate the fruit of that tree after a long thought (Gen. 3:6) and left the garden in Eden. God said nothing to Adam about his leaving Eden when he had eaten the fruit of it.  But, he had to leave if he had eaten it.  When Adam pondered God's commandment and he finally ignored it, it expresses Adam's decision that he knows more than God does and is smarter than He is. This decision shows the separation from God because there can be no two masters in a family.  Of course, the separation from God is caused by some more reasons in addition to Adam's having eaten it. The problem of eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is only one example that shows Adam's fundamental conflicts towards God.
Anyway, Adam was separated from God in the garden in Eden and had to live his own life (in this world). 


Continued/

[Sarah]

I hadn't thought of the serpent as man's wisdom before, but it makes sense.  I have always had a hard time thinking that man was made 'perfect' since something within him caused Him to disobey God....it wasn't the external snake, but the one within that saw that the tree was good and wanted to be like God.

Now Jesus came.
What do you think HE would do to you?

The scripture comes to mind of an ax being laid to a root.  Although I know Jesus was speaking of God cutting of Israel...it could also mean that the holy spirit cuts off the wisdom of Adam....Ahhhh!   :sigh:  It's good thing.. :cloud9:

[70sevens]

Hi,

I have stopped posting for a while,
as it seemed to me that nobody was interesed.
Glad to hear from you.

Quote-----------------------
it wasn't the external snake, but the one within that saw
that the tree was good and wanted to be like God.
----------------------------

Sinners are represented by their internal snake (wisdom).
That's why Jesus said to Pharisees
"Snakes!".

Soon you will realize all the fights in the scriptures are not one of the followings.
God vs Israel
God vs Pharisees
God vs Non-believers
God vs Anti-Christ
God vs Devil

But, the fight is "God vs Me".

Of course, who dares to confornt with God?
We, believers, are doing it here now, not knowing.

Let us get more light by continuing the Parable of the Lost Son Part 1.


3.

The course for Adam to leave the garden in Eden matches the course for the lost son to leave home.

- Father who permitted his younger son to leave

The father permitted his younger son to leave home since the son was eager to do so.  No father would allow his son to leave, without hesitation.  He would have dissuaded his younger son from leaving home with all his heart since he already knew that the son would have a very hard time of it there.  However, it will be no longer useless to persuade the son once he has made up his mind to be independent of his father.  The father cannot catch the son's heart even if the father could have caught his body by force.  The father let him go unavoidably since he had no other better way.

However, the father now letting him go, has one hope.  That is, the father hopes that the younger son will come back home after going to a far country and experiencing true conditions of the country.  With this hope in his heart, the father permits the younger son to go.

- God who permitted Adam to leave

We will now read the text in which Adam leaves the garden in Eden, which is comparatively quoted with the parable of the lost son.  Genesis Chapter 3 records Adam as follows:

[Gen 3:17-19]
17/  To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
18/  It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
19/  By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

We generally know that Adam was expelled from the garden in Eden because he had disobeyed God's commandment.  But, it is not true.  Adam who was born in the garden in Eden longed for the unknown world he had never undergone.  The unknown world means the world in which the humans left God and they are disobedient to the commands of God.  Adam who never experienced that world will be naturally attracted by it.

It may look good if Adam only stays in the garden in Eden, but it has a fundamental problem.  If he only lives in the garden in Eden, he cannot recognize the garden in Eden as the garden in Eden.  He has to undergo another world so as to recognize the garden in Eden as the garden in Eden.  It's a dilemma.  For example, we cannot recognize light as light if there is only light in this world.  Light will be light when there is darkness.  Adam who was created in the first place lived his life only in the garden in Eden, and he accordingly knew no joy given in the garden in Eden.  Adam will recognize the garden in Eden as the garden in Eden when he has lived a life in the world that he had never lived in after having left the garden.

God knows that Adam will be completed after he left God.  And God looked on when Adam left the garden in Eden.  In this instance, God's looking on has following meanings: First, God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden in Eden so that He provided a fundamental cause for Adam to leave the garden in Eden.  Second, God waited while Adam was eating the fruit, and He appeared when he's done with it.  If God really wanted to prevent him from eating it, He would not have put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the center of the garden in Eden or He would have placed a sword whirling and flashing near the tree so that Adam may not hang around it. However, God didn't do so.  In this context, God opened the way for Adam to eat the fruit and He looked on.

Of course, there can be an excuse in that all of them were given to test the free will of Adam.  But, if we think of it further, we'll find soon that this case does not correspond to the free will.  If he has a free will, he has freedom to eat the fruit and also has freedom to not eat it.  God gave him this freedom.  But, if God punishes him and drives him out of the garden in Eden because he has eaten it, what is given to him is not a free will but a half will to not eat the fruit. Therefore, the explanation given to testing the free will of Adam has contradiction in itself.

Does God have any reason to test the free will of human beings and lead them into the lives full of trials?  God does not test us for the purpose of testing us, but He raises us with His power of life.  The case in which Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil belongs to the course of creation.  It does not mean that Adam disobeyed for a time.
If we have come to understand the above description as it is, we will no longer make a meaningless resolution as follows:
"I will never eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which Adam ate."
As I told you, we were born in the world because we already had eaten it.  So, our determination to not eat it has no meaning at all, as we've already eaten the fruit.

- Our question: "I've never eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil according to my will..."

In general, it is hard for us to admit the fact that every one eats the fruit and is then born in the world, because we think we have never seen it nor eaten it.  However, it is true that each of us ate it. The Scriptures testify it from the story of Adam as we already read in the above.
A human being does not begin his existence when he is born.  The human beings were spiritual beings each of who was an Adam and who stood near God called as Eden.  Each of them who were once in the garden in Eden came to this world with a body.  Therefore, our souls already existed before we have the body.  So, our origin we belong to is not this material world, but the kingdom in heaven.
It is meaningless to say, "I've never eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."  If you deny having eaten it, it means that you are saying, "I'm no man," because the human being is to eat it as an inevitable consequence.

- Far country

Let's get back to the parable of the lost son.
The younger son leaves the house of his father and goes to a far country.  The younger son and the father who is the head of the household were connected in life when he was in the house of the father.  But, the ruler and the younger son are connected with each other by the law in the far country.  You will know the difference between the relation connected in life and the other relation connected by the law.  The former one is connected with love, and the latter one is connected by give-and-takes that show another phase of the law.
The house of the father in the parable symbolizes the kingdom of God where we abide with Him.

[Ps 23:6]
Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

On the contrary, the far country symbolizes the world where as many younger sons as having left the house of the father live their lives by maintaining the system of the world by their own law.  It symbolizes the present world where we now live.  The Scriptures point out that the ruler of the world is the devil.  The devil said tempting Jesus:

[Luke 4:5-6]
5/ The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
6/  And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.

[I Jn 5:19]
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

As read above, the devil says this world has been given to him.  John says the same point.  The world in which we are living has been given to the evil one, which is frequently found in the Bible.  The world in this text does not represent the material world we can see, but it indicates the world system that the human beings having left God created with their ideal, wisdom, and efforts.  This world is created and controlled by those having left God by making laws and rules, for the purpose of realizing their ideal.  Therefore, the real one that rules the world is the human beings who have left God.  The Scriptures reveal that the human beings who control this world system are those who are evil.

The persons living in this world are destined to be exploited, suppressed, curbed, robbed, and destroyed by laws because they are connected with each other by the laws in this world whereas the persons in the kingdom of God are connected in life.  The laws lead us to death.  Both the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1-11) and the younger son in the parable of the lost son represent those who lived in the world of law, failed to survive, and finally died.  The younger son longed for this world and came into it all unawares.  We also came into this world with the same mind as that of him.  We are the younger sons who naturally left the house of the father and set off for a far country.


End of Part 1/

[Sarah]

As I told you, we were born in the world because we already had eaten it.  So, our determination to not eat it has no meaning at all, as we've already eaten the fruit.

- Our question: "I've never eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil according to my will..."

In general, it is hard for us to admit the fact that every one eats the fruit and is then born in the world, because we think we have never seen it nor eaten it.  However, it is true that each of us ate it. The Scriptures testify it from the story of Adam as we already read in the above.

There was another thread that dealt with the idea of pre-existence.  I find it difficult to support pre-existence scriptually.  The evidence you present seems very subjective.  I do believe that it is true that each of us has eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not because of pre-existence but because we are 'naked' and carnel.  We were born, and then we eat.  We are subjected to futility not willingly, but by the will of the Father that desires to grow us up into His sons.

I'm not sure where you are going with this...but toward the end of your speaking it sounds like an 'us vs them'.  When in reality it is humanity verses sin.

-sorry I don't post often, but when I get home from work I can't even function mentally after 8 hours teaching 7 and 8 year olds.....I crash on the couch and zone out.  So the weekend is my time to chat.

Love, Sarah

[70sevens]

Hi,

Surely, I guess you require some rest.

Quote-----------------------------
I find it difficult to support pre-existence scriptually. The evidence you present seems very subjective. 
I do believe that it is true that each of us has eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil,
not because of pre-existence but because we are 'naked' and carnel. We were born, and then we eat. 
We are subjected to futility not willingly,
but by the will of the Father that desires to grow us up into His sons.
----------------------------------

I don't remember saying we ate good and evil fruit because of pre-existence.
Please check.

Regarding the pre-existence, think about Adam.
He was in Eden with God,
after eating good and evil fruit he came out of Eden, being separated from God. 
As for Adam who is 'out of Eden', he pre-existed in Eden.
Adam is us, i.e. each individual.
'Out of Eden' is the place where we live in now - this sinful world.
So 'pre-existence of each individual' in Eden is the statement of the scriptures.
How can it be very subjective, I wonder?

Earlier, you mentioned that it was difficult to accept us as evil trees.
So I wanted to show you how we came this world as evil trees.
When Jesus comes, HE will cut down evil trees, which is us,
and will make us resurrected as good trees in this present world.
After that, whatever we do will be good.
This is the salvation that I am talking about.

I know all of you are saved, and will surely go to heaven afterlife.
Everybody is saved in accord with his own standard in believing Jesus.
But what standard are we talking about?

According to the scriptures,
saved person,
he is joyful always and he loves neighbor as himself.

He is not TRYING to be joyful.
He is not TRYING to love.
But, he is 'joy' itself and he is 'love' itself.
So, he is joyful always, and he loves neighbor always.
This will be the fruit that comes from Jesus inside of us.
By this fruit, we will know whether we are good trees or evil trees.

Sorry to trouble busy you.
However, knowing Jesus should not be a side job for anybody.
If you are not so keen about this issue, let us close our dialogues here.
Thanks a million.


God bless.

[SeekerSA]

I wanted to talk about the true Salvation by Jesus.
I was surprised that not many people here were enthusiastic to know about the salvation.
Presumably, their thinking was that they were saved already,
or would be saved ultimately even after the present life by the merciful God.
So 'being saved' is no more their concerns. They want to have no worries.

99% of us come out of traditional churches and 99% are B-A believers.  I did say to you it would not be looked upon lightly if you came here on a mission to save us.  99% of us came out of the harlot as there is no life there for more growth. 99% of the mainstream church has only an understanding of what has been handed down and many do not or cannot explain their belief, they believe blindly.  God has no direct relationship with members and most are pew warmers.  99% here are those that have rejected the mainstream version as they have been enlightened to a deeper walk with God.  Many of those we encounter on other forums cannot even defend their beliefs when challenged.  Almost all just have fire insurance, nothing more.

But without salvation, men are destined to feel fundamental lack in their life.
If we feel really the lack in our life we would not dilly-dally, saying salvation is up to God's draw.

And most feel this lack in mainstream Churchianity.  The key is getting into a one-one relationship with the Father and not rely on 2nd hand revelation. This is what God wants.

Seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened is something we do post the salvation process and it is a process not an event

I gather that UR believers had been threatened the by the Eternal Torment
at the traditional churches, and were fed-up.
They wanted to find ways and means to escape from it.
So they studied scriptures using Hebrew and Greek day after day to oppose the traditional teachings.

You gather wrong.  ET for most has just been illogical as even children cannot equate a Loving God with a Vengeful God.  He is a Loving God, and yes He chastises those he loves, and that is all creation but His worst Judgement is death not ET.

Yes we now study the scripture with a deeper probe rather than just accepting blindly what is proffered from the pulpits of men.  satan has the church bound in religion and are of little or no effect to the whole of mankind.  We oppose tradition as tradition is man-made an not from God.  Just like Jesus was opposed to traditions and self righteous pious attitudes of the Pharisees, we too are of the same mind. 

I am not sure if you read other threads here, sure does not seem like it but there are many here with far deeper spiritual understanding of God and God's word than what we find in the church of today.  Today's church, stay on the nipple of their pastors desiring only milk.  God is far more than just a simple sinner's prayer and regular attendance of church.

And came to the conclusion that no hell, no eternal torment, no condemnation, etc.
This way, they got rid of all the uncomfortable and evil aspects (,to their eyes,) of God in the scriptures,

Came to the conclusion through study and not of personal opinion.  The challenge to you is prove ET.  There is a board where you can do this

leaving only the good and merciful aspects (,again to their eyes,) of God.
Thus, they have created one new God, a man-made UR God.

Quite the opposite.  The harlot has created God in man's image, we have discovered the true Father's Love and heart.

Even though men are born sinners,
UR God believers would not be bothered at all by that fact.
They study the bible out of curiosity, and/or for fun,
or sometimes for theological thesis.

Again you judge wrongly, why would anyone not saved bother studying the bible.  Yes we are curious, so should we be.  And yes it is fun to learn more and more of our Father.  We have a number of pastors on this forum who have done the seminary bit and have taught in churches, nowadays, the church does not want to hear of an all Loving God, they have gotten so used to being told they are special and cannot tolerate it when told all mankind is special, even Gays, Prostitutes and even Sinners.  Have we got it wrong?  What did Jesus do? Where was His ministry focused? To the sick and the needy.  Did he ever judge the sick and needy? No.

The Scriptures are showing us 'One Person' who is already around us.
So when we read the scriptures we should meet 'a Person, Jesus'
rather than being indulged in bible-study itself.

Again this is made from a false assumption.  Because we do not believe as you do, we are therefor automatically not saved in your opinion, you sound like a Pharisee although that may not be your intent.

[John 5:39-40]
39/ You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life.
These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40/ yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

EXACTLY

Have you met Jesus in person through the Scriptures?
Or are you still looking for the profound meanings in there,
ignoring Jesus who is knocking on your mind.

YES, and there are profound meanings, that is why we discuss.

Meet Jesus now, and be saved.
This is the God's draw.

We have TY very much.

I read your other posts wrt the prodigal son.  There are three stories.  Tell us about about the son who stayed behind.  Tell us about the Father's love.  Once you understand the other two sides of the same coin, then maybe you too will understand why we believe as we do.

UR is not a religion, we have no creed, we have no Statement of Faith.  We do not put God in a box, we follow no one man's teachings only Jesus.

Before you level accusations like a Pharisee again, I suggest you read up on the other boards.  Once you do, you will get a better idea where we come from and what we believe.

Many here still attend regular churches, for others, this is where we fellowship.

Blessings

[Sarah]

I don't remember saying we ate good and evil fruit because of pre-existence.
Please check.

not because of pre-existence but when we pre-existed.  Isn't this what you think? .....

As for Adam who is 'out of Eden', he pre-existed in Eden.

It was in Eden that he ate the fruit.

Sorry to trouble busy you.
However, knowing Jesus should not be a side job for anybody.
If you are not so keen about this issue, let us close our dialogues here.
Thanks a million.

I don't know if it is the medium of internet, or language, but this statement sounded a little judgemental.   :dontknow:  I don't think that because it is hard to get online during the week that equates to making 'knowing Jesus' a 'side job'.  I'm just explaining why it takes so long to respond.

I see many truths in what you say...and yet many things you say sound accusatory and  presumptious of the people here.  For instance, many of the things Seeker quoted.

My communication with you has been positive in that it has caused me to look more inward in this busyness of life, and again realize salvation in now and nothing else matters.  I liked your analogy that it is the hungry man that eats...and that was what God was doing to me.  I am beginning to feel His stirrings again and I believe He used our dialogue to do that. 

Love, Sarah