Hebrews 6 Verses 4-8

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

How would you respond when ET advocates use Hebrews 6 verses 4-8 to deny UR? Also, what are your thoughts on those verses?

Hebrews 6:4-8

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

[Seth]

Hi SFTT, my thoughts on it are here:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/'it-is-impossible-to-renew-unto-repentance'-(hebrews-6)/msg165272/#msg165272

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

Hi SFTT, my thoughts on it are here:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/'it-is-impossible-to-renew-unto-repentance'-(hebrews-6)/msg165272/#msg165272

Thanks Seth, I will check it out

[Seth]

Sure, if I had a short answer for an ETer, I would point out that Hebrews talks about a period of time up unto a judgment in which repentance isn't possible due to God's own hand. But it doesn't say the judgement itself thereafter is eternal or lacking in redemptive qualities. It just says God is holding them over for judgement.

[eaglesway]

The verses themselves also set some prerequisites for the person who is in such a condition...

"those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"

It is hard to imagine that someone who has experienced that much of the kingdom could "crucify the son of God afresh"

but it happens.

[sheila]

  different perspective...  Jesus said 'What is impossible with men is possible with God" Do you believe that?


   1 Timothy 4;1  those that 'fall away'  some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits,and things taught

  by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars,whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

  note 'branding with mark of carnal beastly image'.....note 'beasts In Dan 7;

  THEY FORBID PEOPLE TO MARRY AND ORDER THEM TO ABSTAIN FROM CERTAIN FOODS,WHICH GOD CREATED

  TO BE RECIEVED WITH THANKSGIVING,BY THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND KNOW THE TRUTH  For everything God has

created is good and  NOTHING IS TO BE REJECTED IF IT IS RECIEVED WITH THANKSGIVING......BECAUSE........

   IT IS CONSECRATED BY THE WORD OF GOD AND PRAYER

     The 'Saints' were overcome.......Dan 7  in my vision at night I looked,and there before me was one like the son of man

  Coming with the clouds of heaven...........beastly kingdom tramples..saints handed over to him for a time/times/half a time

  but the "court will sit=judgement]..and his power will be taken away and destroyed forever

 

[Seth]

The verses themselves also set some prerequisites for the person who is in such a condition...

"those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"

It is hard to imagine that someone who has experienced that much of the kingdom could "crucify the son of God afresh"

but it happens.

Yes, 2Peter 2 describes them "natural brute beasts" totally devoid of conscience. That's what I think the "fire" to burn down the "thorns and briers" to spark that conscience to realize that their sin is not their friend. It's about humbling. That's why i think fire is a good metaphor. It weakens the the internal structure and brings low that which stood proudly.

[dajomaco]

To me Hebrews is for the Hebrews.
If they had a relationship with God through Moses and the Law.
They came to a new understanding that they could have a relationship with God
through Jesus through mercy.
They are relieved that God has forgiven them.

If they in their minds they go back to a relationship with God based on the Law .
Christ is no use to them. They have nowhere to go.
They find out again they cannot please God.
Their conscience is not clear before God.
They are utterly hopeless, until they go back to their first love of Christ on the cross.

[Seth]

Personally I don't think Hebrews was meant for the Jewish believers only. Hebrews explains how the Law was a precursor to Christ but nothing within it restricts it's truths, both warnings and gifts to Jewish believers. Both Paul and Peter made similarly worded warnings in their epistles about the end result of those who claim to be Christians but bear no similarities to Christ in thier actions. I find the Hebrews 10 to be another wording of the "wolves in sheep's clothing" issue that all the Apostles touch on. It was a big issue.

[eaglesway]

I think Hebrews contains a lot of transitional revelation for Jewish believers, showing the types and symbols of the priesthood and the tabernacle and teaching them how Jesus is the fulfillment of it all, and leading them into the promised rest- so I would say it was primarily written for the Hebrews but certainly not in any exclusive way, since all believers- Gentiles looking back at what the law was as a foundation and Hebrews at what the priesthood of the believer is going forward - need to understand all that revelation, since the law and the letter, as principles, always strive to infect faith from the flesh and the mind. Those principles are the same for all.

[Patinak]

To me Hebrews is for the Hebrews.
If they had a relationship with God through Moses and the Law.
They came to a new understanding that they could have a relationship with God
through Jesus through mercy.
They are relieved that God has forgiven them.

If they in their minds they go back to a relationship with God based on the Law .
Christ is no use to them. They have nowhere to go.
They find out again they cannot please God.
Their conscience is not clear before God.
They are utterly hopeless, until they go back to their first love of Christ on the cross.

Dajomaco, I think you're spot on!
Pat

[dajomaco]

I think Hebrews contains a lot of transitional revelation for Jewish believers, showing the types and symbols of the priesthood and the tabernacle and teaching them how Jesus is the fulfillment of it all, and leading them into the promised rest- so I would say it was primarily written for the Hebrews but certainly not in any exclusive way, since all believers- Gentiles looking back at what the law was as a foundation and Hebrews at what the priesthood of the believer is going forward - need to understand all that revelation, since the law and the letter, as principles, always strive to infect faith from the flesh and the mind. Those principles are the same for all.

I agree well said.
since the law and the letter, as principles, always strive to infect faith from the flesh and the mind. Those principles are the same for all.
IMO
The battle for the mind is on going.
The flesh wars against the Spirit .(even when the flesh is being good).

[dajomaco]

Personally I don't think Hebrews was meant for the Jewish believers only. Hebrews explains how the Law was a precursor to Christ but nothing within it restricts it's truths, both warnings and gifts to Jewish believers. Both Paul and Peter made similarly worded warnings in their epistles about the end result of those who claim to be Christians but bear no similarities to Christ in thier actions. I find the Hebrews 10 to be another wording of the "wolves in sheep's clothing" issue that all the Apostles touch on. It was a big issue.

The wolfs is sheep's clothing are the ones who continue to teach Moses. (imo)     

[Seth]

Matthew 7
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

True and False Disciples

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The Wise and Foolish Builders

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

[dajomaco]

 1 Corinthians 3
According to God's grace that was given to me, I have laid a foundation as a skilled master builder, and another builds on it. But each one must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no one can lay any other foundation than what has been laid down. That foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on that foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each one's work will become obvious, for the day[f] will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If anyone's work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.[g]

Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,

[Seth]

Yes, each ones WORK. Ye shall know them by their fruit:

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

In Matthew 7 Jesus isn't talking about legalism or Judaizers. He is talking about Christians who claim miracles in his name but do not bear good fruit. That's why he says "away from me ye who work iniquity." The law is against SIN. The reason people who walk by the spirit are not under the Law is because there is no law against love, joy, peace, long suffering, goodness, gentleness, faith, meekness, temperance. Therefore, those who produce good fruit, don't need the Law because they have the Spirit.

The problem isn't the Law, but sin in the flesh. That is why Hebrews 6 says LET US MOVE ON TO MATURITY, not laying again the foundation of the faith, and this we do if God permit, for it is impossible to renew UNTO REPENTANCE...

Repentance not of following the law, but of bad fruit.

[dajomaco]

Yes, each ones WORK. Ye shall know them by their fruit:

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

In Matthew 7 Jesus isn't talking about legalism or Judaizers. He is talking about Christians who claim miracles in his name but do not bear good fruit. That's why he says "away from me ye who work iniquity." The law is against SIN. The reason people who walk by the spirit are not under the Law is because there is no law against love, joy, peace, long suffering, goodness, gentleness, faith, meekness, temperance. Therefore, those who produce good fruit, don't need the Law because they have the Spirit.
:iagree:
The problem isn't the Law, but sin in the flesh. That is why Hebrews 6 says LET US MOVE ON TO MATURITY, not laying again the foundation of the faith, and this we do if God permit, for it is impossible to renew UNTO REPENTANCE...

Repentance not of following the law, but of bad fruit.

[Seth]

Yes, that's why I believe Hebrews 6 is meant to be heard and heeded by any Christian bearing bad fruit whether Jewish by blood or Gentile by blood. My humble opinion.

[dajomaco]

The answer to bad fruit,is to go back to the foundation and start building again in faith of the finished work of the cross.
Love is the way.Mercy for all.

[Seth]

I agree brother, but to build any house requires good building material, the fruit of the spirit. Love is the way, the walk.  :HeartThrob: