God, who creates evil

[Paul Hazelwood]

seems to me the kjv is the weakest in it's literal rendering.

I'm not a linguist and no scholar but from the bit of study it seems amplified and nasv seem to try to use the literal word used.

I'm not saying whos right and wrong but could nasb be right in how they render the text.

Aug

One source I like is www.scripture4all.org, this has a downloadable program.  Others may have different sources.  I also download the CLV module for that program.

One part of that program shows the literal rendering of the biblical text.  It has not been translated for the purpose of easy reading or with a religious bias as far as I can tell.

The clv comes pretty close to following the literal wording and making it pretty easy to read, but no translation is perfect, thats why I love the literal text to refer to.

For studying I will mostly use that and the concordant.  if I just want to read things I have already studied and for the time being believe a certain way about.  I like reading the elegant text of the KJV.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi ..."devoid of nomenclature"...   :laughing7:

Just havin fun, my noname friend   :laugh:

@WillieH

Not sure this is what it appears... do you not believe there is a God ...noname?

yes I do

:laughing7:  Please forgive my denseness... but,

Yes I do what? 

(1)  Yes I do believe there is a God, or

(2)  Yes it do "not believe there is a God?

PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[noname]

willieH: Hi ..."devoid of nomenclature"...   :laughing7:

Just havin fun, my noname friend   :laugh:

@WillieH

Not sure this is what it appears... do you not believe there is a God ...noname?

yes I do

:laughing7:  Please forgive my denseness... but,

Yes I do what? 

(1)  Yes I do believe there is a God, or

(2)  Yes it do "not believe there is a God?

PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

yes willie...I DO believe there is a God...but my question to you...do you believe in a righteous, loving God who has only the best planned for his Creation?
I have said this before...I do not believe that the god of the jews...ie Yahweh Elohim is the Almighty...the name Yahweh Elohim denotes a god of gods...Elohim means "gods"...that is plural...so yahweh Elohim means "Yahweh one of the many gods"

I believe in the Father of Jesus as God...never did he make any reference that Yahweh is his Father...go and prove it to yourself
Yahweh has shown himself to be a god of good and evil...and the god of good & evil leads all to death and destruction
Paul Hazelwood implied that Adam & Eve did not know about the choice they were going to make when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good & evil...but they did...God Almighty (El Elohim) told them that...he told them about the forbidden tree which leads to death, and the tree which will leads to everlasting Life...which they could eat from to their heart's content

we have heard Jesus say that the current ruler of this world...the reigning god...is Satan...the "god" man chose to cling to...the god of good & evil...death & destruction...BUT...there is another god whose path leads to Life...and that is exactly what Jesus said he was..."I am the Life and the Ressurection"

so did God Almighty create evil? no...man chose evil and thereby brought it to earth...it was never here until man chose to follow that path, or at least, it never manifested before man chose it...instead of the path of Life...and subsequently the whole creation on earth was subject to death & destruction because of what man did..
we must never see past the fact that it is man who has to put things right on earth and therefore by God Almighty...it is an easy cop-out to put the blame on God and say that He must solve our problems, for we have created them...the earth was given to man as his dominion, and we have to rightly rule it until the King returns...if we do not, we will not be worthy to sit with Him at the banquet table or rule with Him...and His path is the path of Life friends...where no evil can enter or have dominion

[Craig]

I just read your reply noname, nobody said, "God Almighty" created evil. That is an argument you just made up right now. The question was did God create evil.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul Hazelwood implied that Adam & Eve did not know about the choice they were going to make when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good & evil...but they did...God Almighty (El Elohim) told them that...he told them about the forbidden tree which leads to death, and the tree which will leads to everlasting Life...which they could eat from to their heart's content

I hilighted in red above to point out that I did not at all say that.

I pointed something out based upon your belief that man created evil.  You then changed your wording to say they created it on earth.  You now change your wording again by saying.

"man chose evil and thereby brought it to earth"

I asked you the question for you to give a  verse that states Man created evil that is as specifically worded as the scripture in Isaiah.   Can you do this? 


I also asked you,  Who created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?   Will you answer?

it is an easy cop-out to put the blame on God and say that He must solve our problems

While all this character analysis is cute,  the issue is the holy bible and scripture and what the verses say, how they are worded and what they mean.

The scripture in Isaiah says God created evil.   Ignoring it does not make it go away.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I have said this before...I do not believe that the god of the jews...ie Yahweh Elohim is the Almighty...the name Yahweh Elohim denotes a god of gods...Elohim means "gods"...that is plural...so yahweh Elohim means "Yahweh one of the many gods"

The passage in Isaiah is correctly rendered using only  Yahweh.   Some Translations use Yahweh Elohim which technically is incorrect, but in light of the Fact that Yahweh is indeed the GOD of all gods then it is still talking about God the Father, the same God who is the Father of Jesus.

Tell me, do you think that Yahweh, the God of gods is not the same God the father?   If not you have yourself a blatent contradiction to explain from your own words.

The AV states in Isaiah  "I the LORD do all these things"

WHO is this LORD in Isaiah?

[jabcat]

Saw this just now in Martin's bio/tag...who could this possibly be talking about except for Father God...evil and good?  Not satan or one of his god imposters.

Jer 32:42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

[Pierac]

Satan who is evil personified (spiritually of course) is under the authority of God, yet he still roams the earth. This fact in it's self should tell us much.

Paul

[jabcat]

I understand it, as well as other scriptural examples (Job), to partly tell us that God uses satan for His purposes, including to bring the "iron that sharpens iron" (evil)...is that what you get?

[noname]

@Paul and other Isaiah/Jeremiah quoters...
I have already stated that I do not believe in the god of the jews...if you're a Christian then talk Christ to me...
let's talk about Christ's Father who is everlasting Life, and in whom there is no evil...or are you going to "disprove" that as well by quoting the prophets of the creator/destroyer god Yahweh?

Satan who is evil personified (spiritually of course) is under the authority of God, yet he still roams the earth. This fact in it's self should tell us much.

off course...Satan (evil) is the god of this world...and what did Jesus have to say about evil?
last time I checked...He said we must resist evil with our every fibre of being...
now, if Jesus' Father is the god who creates evil as many are saying...then should we resist God?
c'mon people...where's your logic? one cannot love God's "goodness" and resist His "evilness"...you cannot serve two masters...the difference is NOT between good & evil...it is between good & evil and Life...the path God Almighty (El Elyon) wants us to follow is Life...not the good & evil one man has chosen...the OTHER one :thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

@Paul and other Isaiah/Jeremiah quoters...
I have already stated that I do not believe in the god of the jews...if you're a Christian then talk Christ to me...
let's talk about Christ's Father who is everlasting Life, and in whom there is no evil...or are you going to "disprove" that as well by quoting the prophets of the creator/destroyer god Yahweh?

Question noname,

Do you believe the God in Genesis to be a different God than that in Isaiah?

[Pierac]

Hi Noname,

Let's look at the New Testament and see how the God of the Jews relates to the God the Father of Jesus.

Here is God of the Jews talked about in Act 3:13
Act 3:13  The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.
Note the God of the Jews glorified his servant Jesus. Jesus is the servant of the God of Abraham according to this verse.

Act 5:30  The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.
Yep, The God of our (Jewish) fathers raised Jesus from the dead per Act 5:30

Gal 1:1  Paul, an apostle--not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
Yes, it all fits as Paul tells us "God the Father" raised Jesus from the dead.

There is only one true God! (John 17:1-3)

Paul

[Craig]

Good stuff Pierac.   :happygrin:

[Molly]

7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

--James 4

[noname]

Hi Noname,

Let's look at the New Testament and see how the God of the Jews relates to the God the Father of Jesus.

Here is God of the Jews talked about in Act 3:13
Act 3:13  The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.
Note the God of the Jews glorified his servant Jesus. Jesus is the servant of the God of Abraham according to this verse.

Act 5:30  The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.
Yep, The God of our (Jewish) fathers raised Jesus from the dead per Act 5:30

Gal 1:1  Paul, an apostle--not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
Yes, it all fits as Paul tells us "God the Father" raised Jesus from the dead.

There is only one true God! (John 17:1-3)

Paul

all the stewards or students of the Word should go and look who the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is...He made himself known to them as El Shaddai (God of Peace)...NOT Yahweh...Yahweh made himself known to Moses by this name claiming that he was the same god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

further, in most quotes the god of Genesis calls himself Elohim...which means gods...ie plural..."let us make man in our image"...would be a direct translation
furthermore, the names for God in Genesis (before Yahweh)...were Elohim (gods), El Elyon (God Most High) and El Shaddai (God of Peace)...therefore...I state again to my understanding that the god of the jews (Yahweh) is NOT El Shaddai...Yahweh is and was a god of war...I have seen his "fruits"...
so the god of Jesus IS El Shaddai (God of Peace) and NOT Yahweh (ie the god of the jews)...the god of the Pharisees

[Paul Hazelwood]

further, in most quotes the god of Genesis calls himself Elohim...which means gods...ie plural..."let us make man in our image"...would be a direct translation
furthermore, the names for God in Genesis (before Yahweh)...were Elohim (gods), El Elyon (God Most High) and El Shaddai (God of Peace)...therefore...I state again to my understanding that the god of the jews (Yahweh) is NOT El Shaddai...Yahweh is and was a god of war...I have seen his "fruits"...
so the god of Jesus IS El Shaddai (God of Peace) and NOT Yahweh (ie the god of the jews)...the god of the Pharisees

Genesis 1.1  - H430  'elohiym  el-o-heem'

Genesis 2:4 - H3068  Yhovah  yeh-ho-vaw' H430  'elohiym  el-o-heem'

Isaiah 45:5 -  Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else. There is no Elohim except Me. I am belting you, yet you do not know Me.



The main point I am making is the English words that the name of God has been associated with does not define the truth.  It is seeing the consistancy of the words in the hebrew are all the same between chapters.   Yahweh and Elohim whether used separatly in a verse as it sometimes is, or together in a verse as it sometimes may give us more to think about and discover, but the Hebrew words that have been translated to various names is the same.

The context that I try to gather here is that overall the wording is speaking of the God of gods, the sovereign God that rules over all. 

God may be speaking in a plural sense while creating and the context fits just fine, other passages seem to be refering to the God of Gods or who we should worship and give ultimate credit to.

The distinction your making here using english translations cannot be made when seeing the text and context between the Hebrew in Genesis 2:4 and Isaiah 45:5   

You can translate something to english to make a point, but the manuscript text does not agree with what your trying to do.


In Exodus 6:3 we read 

Ex 6:3 and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as the El-Who-Suffices; as to My name Yahweh, I was not fully realized by them.

Same God.....

[Patrick]

Paul I would have to agree with you the hebrew clearly starts combining the term jehovah and Elohim together in Genesis 2:4,7-9  making it clear that they are one and the same God.  The very usage of the one scripture in Exodus that declares him to be El shaddai should put an end to the nonsense that Jehovah is not el shaddai.

Exo 6:3  And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.


The term "God Almighty" in the Hebrew is El Shaddai.  Jehovah is the name of El Shaddai.

Absolutely the same God  Good stuff paul

Noname I would cordially disagree with you that Jehovah Elohim is another God masquradeing as El shaddai.  The hebrew does not support that assumption.

[Michele]

The KJV often speaks of judgment as evil, as in the case where God was about to come down hard on Israel and after Moses's intercession it says that God repented of the evil that He was going to bring on them.  Contextually, baring this in mind, the book of Isaiah was anticipating the Babylonian captivity of Israel.  So, among other possible interpretations, God was speaking of the evil that was in the works for His rebellious, stubbornly unrepentant nation of Israel.  This is also an interesting subjective verse to bring up in the light of the current deception that passes for sound thinking on Matthew 25:46:  if for any reason and at any time God has created evil, are we to understand that He must always create evil or forfeit being the Creator of Good?  And if that's the case, then what evils await us all on the New Earth?

That last question is an interesting one Martin......

what evils await us all on the New Earth?

Perhaps in the New Earth there is neither good nor evil.  There is only the tree of Life.  Where Good and evil reside there is always a Judgement.  When will the judgement end??

Some believe that Good cannot exist without evil.......and light cannot be Light without darkness......but I beg to differ.  Light has always been Light, but it had to enter into darkness to know what It was capable of.

[autoimmune]

That last question is an interesting one Martin......

what evils await us all on the New Earth?

Perhaps in the New Earth there is neither good nor evil.  There is only the tree of Life.  Where Good and evil reside there is always a Judgement.  When will the judgement end??

Some believe that Good cannot exist without evil.......and light cannot be Light without darkness......but I beg to differ.  Light has always been Light, but it had to enter into darkness to know what It was capable of.

I've struggled with that question myself, StainedGlass.  I like your answer; similar to what I believe about Love, that God created us because Love always requires the "other" to flow. He didn't need us for that, but it fulfilled what He is to do it. 

I had never really thought about the fact that only the Tree of Life exists in the New Jerusalem.  I knew it was so, but hadn't considered the implications. Now you've got me wondering . . .

In Eden God had two trees, one prohibited, one not.  God could have just given Adam and Eve access to the Tree of Life and it would have been a done deal.  No original sin, no need for a savior from that sin . . .

So, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil had to serve a purpose.  Thinking about it, I believe it may be so that we could learn to love willingly.  Much like your idea that Light learns its capabilities by entering into darkness, man learns love (putting others before self) by activating and entering into that evil. Christ came as an example of what that Love should be.  He taught us how to eliminate evil by loving God first and others as ourselves.

Once that is learned, the TOKOG&E (and therefore evil itself) would no longer be needed and only one tree remains, which allows us eternal life in God, who is that Love we learned here on earth.

Thank you, SG.  What a joy when someone offers you a peek at something that piques your interest and gets you thinking.  Much appreciated.

ME



.

[Michele]

That last question is an interesting one Martin......

what evils await us all on the New Earth?

Perhaps in the New Earth there is neither good nor evil.  There is only the tree of Life.  Where Good and evil reside there is always a Judgement.  When will the judgement end??

Some believe that Good cannot exist without evil.......and light cannot be Light without darkness......but I beg to differ.  Light has always been Light, but it had to enter into darkness to know what It was capable of.

I've struggled with that question myself, StainedGlass.  I like your answer; similar to what I believe about Love, that God created us because Love always requires the "other" to flow. He didn't need us for that, but it fulfilled what He is to do it. 

I had never really thought about the fact that only the Tree of Life exists in the New Jerusalem.  I knew it was so, but hadn't considered the implications. Now you've got me wondering . . .

In Eden God had two trees, one prohibited, one not.  God could have just given Adam and Eve access to the Tree of Life and it would have been a done deal.  No original sin, no need for a savior from that sin . . .

So, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil had to serve a purpose.  Thinking about it, I believe it may be so that we could learn to love willingly.  Much like your idea that Light learns its capabilities by entering into darkness, man learns love (putting others before self) by activating and entering into that evil. Christ came as an example of what that Love should be.  He taught us how to eliminate evil by loving God first and others as ourselves.

Once that is learned, the TOKOG&E (and therefore evil itself) would no longer be needed and only one tree remains, which allows us eternal life in God, who is that Love we learned here on earth.

Thank you, SG.  What a joy when someone offers you a peek at something that piques your interest and gets you thinking.  Much appreciated.

ME



.

....and thank you autoimmune......thank you for sharing your thoughts.....enjoyed reading them. :cloud9:

[noname]

Paul I would have to agree with you the hebrew clearly starts combining the term jehovah and Elohim together in Genesis 2:4,7-9  making it clear that they are one and the same God.  The very usage of the one scripture in Exodus that declares him to be El shaddai should put an end to the nonsense that Jehovah is not el shaddai.

Exo 6:3  And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.


The term "God Almighty" in the Hebrew is El Shaddai.  Jehovah is the name of El Shaddai.

Absolutely the same God  Good stuff paul

Noname I would cordially disagree with you that Jehovah Elohim is another God masquradeing as El shaddai.  The hebrew does not support that assumption.

Patrick,
if you want to talk hebrew...then learn the correct terms
the hebrew for God Almighty is El Elyon...not El Shaddai...El Shaddai means God of Peace

so...the "God of our Fathers" is El Elyon...God Almighty...the God of Jesus...NOT Yehovah/Yahweh OR Elohim

@StainedGlass

Some believe that Good cannot exist without evil.......and light cannot be Light without darkness......but I beg to differ.  Light has always been Light, but it had to enter into darkness to know what It was capable of.

there is ONLY one path to Life...the path of Light  :Sparkletooth:

[Patrick]

Hi Noname
I hope you are having a good day.  I am not trying to argue with you there dear noname I would have to disagree with you. Just a simple look at the hebrew of the verse in question, Exo 6:3 will prove that the term defined God almighty by the KJV is el Shaddai

Exo 6:3  And I appearedH7200 untoH413 Abraham,H85 untoH413 Isaac,H3327 and untoH413 Jacob,H3290 by the name of GodH410 Almighty,H7706 but by my nameH8034 JEHOVAHH3068 was I notH3808 knownH3045 to them.

H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."

H7706
שׁדּי
shadday
shad-dah'ee
From H7703; the Almighty: - Almighty.


El Shaddai does not mean God of peace.  The Hebrew word for peace dear sir is shalom; which is an entirely different word.  I would have more to say but I have to go right now something came up

[bobf]

Excellent thread!

This passage cinches it for me.

2 Samuel 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

The evil God raised up against David was not just calamity, it was moral evil.

Also, creating evil does not mean doing evil.  God raised up evil against David, but it was good for God to do that.

[Craig]

Excellent thread!

This passage cinches it for me.

2 Samuel 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

The evil God raised up against David was not just calamity, it was moral evil.

Also, creating evil does not mean doing evil.  God raised up evil against David, but it was good for God to do that.

Many people, unfortunately, are too simple minded to understand this concept. God is good God is all powerful and all knowing and evil exists. Therefore evil was created by God for a purpose He made it for. Evil only exists in creation, it does not exist outside of it.

[Patrick]

Hi Noname

The phrase the "Most High God" in Gen 14:18 is translated from El Elyon.

Gen 14:18  And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

From the Strong's concordance H5945
עליון
‛elyôn
el-yone'
From H5927; an elevation, that is, (adjectively) lofty (comparatively); as title, the Supreme: - (Most, on) high (-er, -est), upper (-most).

Elyon is never translated as almighty.

From the King james concordance on e sword H5945
עליון
‛elyôn
Total KJV Occurrences: 78
high, 36
Gen_14:18-20 (3), Gen_14:22, Num_24:16, Deu_26:19, Deu_28:1, Deu_32:8, 1Ki_9:8, 2Ch_7:21, 2Ch_23:20, 2Ch_27:3, Neh_3:25, Psa_7:17, Psa_9:2, Psa_21:7, Psa_46:4, Psa_47:2, Psa_50:14, Psa_57:2, Psa_73:11, Psa_77:10, Psa_78:17, Psa_78:35, Psa_78:56, Psa_82:6, Psa_83:18, Psa_91:1, Psa_91:9, Psa_92:1, Psa_97:9, Psa_107:11, Isa_14:14, Jer_20:2, Lam_3:35, Lam_3:38
most, 25
Gen_14:18-20 (3), Gen_14:22, Psa_7:17, Psa_9:2, Psa_21:7, Psa_46:4, Psa_47:2, Psa_50:14, Psa_57:2, Psa_73:11, Psa_77:10, Psa_78:17, Psa_78:56, Psa_82:6, Psa_83:18, Psa_91:1, Psa_91:9, Psa_92:1, Psa_107:11, Isa_14:14, Lam_3:35, Lam_3:38, Dan_7:27
upper, 8
Jos_16:5, 2Ki_18:17, 1Ch_7:24, 2Ch_8:5, 2Ch_32:30, Isa_7:3, Isa_36:2, Eze_42:5
higher, 5
2Ki_15:35, Psa_89:27, Jer_36:10, Eze_9:2, Eze_42:5
highest, 3
Psa_18:13, Psa_87:5, Eze_41:7
uppermost, 1
Gen_40:17


I humbly suggest that you go back and study the names of God because you have missed the reality of scripture, and unfortunately substituted your opinion in place of the word of God.