God is Love....But

[Gary Amirault]

I just received an email from a very convinced Calvinist who has frequested this board under more than one name and I think he finally got bumped, maybe not, maybe he's still here. Anyway, he expressed the typical Calvinist position of God being love and still being able to torture the entire lot of humanity, that the two ideas are not unreconcilable to him. I think it quite insane. And from reading Calvinists of past generations, I think most of them have demented minds. Case in point:

"That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more abundant thanks to God for it, a perfect sight of punishment of the damned is granted them." Summa iii Suppl. Qu 93, i.
Peter Lombard, the Master of Sentences
"Therefore the elect shall go forth...to see the torments of the impious, seeing which they will not be grieved, but will be satiated with joy at the sight of the unutterable calamity of the impious." Sent. Iv 50, ad finMartin Luther (when questioned whether the Blessed will not be saddened by seeing their nearest and dearest tortured answers),
"Not in the least."
Gerhard
"...the Blessed will see their friends and relations among the damned as often as they like but without the least of compassion."

I find statements like the above, sick, sick, sick. Yet there are many Calvinists today who have no problem with the above. Such is the Calvinist who has recently frequented this board. Here is his email to me. I would like some folks here to spend some time answering this email. Not that it will change this person's mind one bit, there is probably way too much lead and cement in his brains and heart to "hear" the truth. My guess is he did not compose this himself, he borrowed it from a dead Calvinist like Calvin or Jonathan Edwards, or Pink. Anyway, go for it:

"God is love, whether He saves all men, or does not save any man. God's love is not contingent on man's need of salvation, or on the result of universal quantification.
If in any manner we reason "God is love because He saves all men," we establish God's Being by a utilitarian process that defines God by what He does for man. This is the essence of idolatry, for idols are defined by how they serve, satisfy, and benefit man. Idols are constructed for man's well-being. We must not engage in the idolatry of making God a magical means to man's ends. Universalism often ends up being both humanistic and idolatrous as it constructs a "god" who is a universal producer of egalitarian benefits and blessings for man. The benefits and blessings are then elevated for worship, instead of worshipping and glorifying God for the worthiness of His own Being. We do not worship God for what He can do for us, but for Who He is in Himself.

[WhiteWings]

"God is love, whether He saves all men, or does not save any man. God's love is not contingent on man's need of salvation, or on the result of universal quantification.
If in any manner we reason "God is love because He saves all men," we establish God's Being by a utilitarian process that defines God by what He does for man. This is the essence of idolatry, for idols are defined by how they serve, satisfy, and benefit man.

:blahgreen: :blah: :blahgreen: :blah:
Empty words from a frozen heart :thumbdown:
I'm missing the proof that "God is love, whether He saves all men" is false/idolatry.
I can just as well claim that  your "refutation" is Calvinist idolatry to please their true master, satan.

[Pierac]

1Jn 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

They fear, therefore they feel they must believe as the Church teaches or risk not being chosen. Many even teach babies will burn in Hell, because if they don't it would make them at risk of the elect.

Oddly for me it was the Calvinist who lead me into U.R.. When, I went to test their docterine, I found U.R.


Paul

[sparrow]

Gopd

"God is love, whether He saves all men, or does not save any man. God's love is not contingent on man's need of salvation, or on the result of universal quantification.
If in any manner we reason "God is love because He saves all men," we establish God's Being by a utilitarian process that defines God by what He does for man. This is the essence of idolatry, for idols are defined by how they serve, satisfy, and benefit man. Idols are constructed for man's well-being. We must not engage in the idolatry of making God a magical means to man's ends. Universalism often ends up being both humanistic and idolatrous as it constructs a "god" who is a universal producer of egalitarian benefits and blessings for man. The benefits and blessings are then elevated for worship, instead of worshipping and glorifying God for the worthiness of His own Being. We do not worship God for what He can do for us, but for Who He is in Himself.

And who IS HE in Himself?? Let's explore this.

8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

If you do not love, you do not know God... because GOD *IS* Love.
How interesting and exciting!!

So then, what IS love?

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails.

GOD NEVER FAILS. God keeps NO record of wrongs. God ALWAYS perseveres.
GOD NEVER FAILS.



1 Timothy 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God ALWAYS perserveres.
GOD NEVER FAILS.

It is God's will for ALL men to be saved.
GOD NEVER FAILS. If all men are not saved, then God's will has not come to fruition, it has failed.
GOD NEVER FAILS.

Romans 10:9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Who will do this? Who will confess that Jesus is Lord?

Phillipians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  11And that every tongue should confess (to declare faith in or adherence to) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This is such a small sampling of the riches of God's grace and mercy that is found all over the same pages of the same bible in which you have formed your beliefs. Pretty amazing. If you look at something through the eyes of love (in other words through God's eyes, since GOD IS LOVE) you see things a little differently than when viewing something through the eyes of fallen man...

Something to think about.

Peace.


Romans3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar

[Gab]

"God is love, whether He saves all men, or does not save any man. God's love is not contingent on man's need of salvation, or on the result of universal quantification.
If in any manner we reason "God is love because He saves all men," we establish God's Being by a utilitarian process that defines God by what He does for man. This is the essence of idolatry, for idols are defined by how they serve, satisfy, and benefit man. Idols are constructed for man's well-being. We must not engage in the idolatry of making God a magical means to man's ends. Universalism often ends up being both humanistic and idolatrous as it constructs a "god" who is a universal producer of egalitarian benefits and blessings for man. The benefits and blessings are then elevated for worship, instead of worshipping and glorifying God for the worthiness of His own Being. We do not worship God for what He can do for us, but for Who He is in Himself.

Who are the people telling everyone else that they'd better convert right now or else they're gonna burn?

Ain't universalists.

Who, then, are the people who focus on what God can do for us, rather than who he is?

Ain't universalists.

God is love because of what he does.  I am reminded of a quote I quite like from Gottfried Leibniz:

"For why praise him for what he has done if he would be equally praiseworthy in doing exactly the opposite?  Where will his justice and his wisdom be found if nothing is left but a certain despotic power, if will takes the place of reason, and if, according to the definition of tyrants, that which is pleasing to the most powerful is by that very fact just?"

This is not "establish(ing) God's Being by a utilitarian process".  This is not stating vainly what we would like God to be.  This is just plainly stating what love is.  God's nature is made manifest in that which God does.  A God who creates a creation only to then torture it in eternal hellfire forever - even if they see the error of their ways and wish to repent - is not a God who is love.  If God will do that to my family, my friends, and my loved ones, then I am more loving than the God who is love itself.  And I know that I am not more loving than the God who is love itself.

"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:2-3)

Love is all, and love is everything, just as God is all, and God is everything.  I know you are a human being.  And because of that, I know that there has to be something, somewhere inside you that creates cognitive dissonance between the idea that God is love and that God will consign the vast majority of humanity to eternal torment.  Listen to it.  Embrace it.  It knows what so many try so hard to ignore.  That the Bible has been quoted means nothing.  Any man can quote the Bible, but without love, that man is nothing.  And as nothing may come from nothing, so too is the quotation of the Bible nothing as well.

"These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men." (Isaiah 29:13)

The word for "hell" is utterly unrelated to the Greek words (plural) from which it is translated.  "Hell", or rather Hel, is a location straight from Norse mythology, which has been infused into the Christian religion by those who felt that it was more important to gain converts at all cost than to actually preserve the word of God.  It is part of rules taught by men - nothing more.

Please, stop torturing yourself in your attempts to reconcile the torture of nearly all humanity with the idea that God is love.  There is no eternal hellfire waiting for you if you stop. Rather, "then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:32)  God loves you.  God has always loved you, and God will always love you.  And it is precisely because God loves, has always loved, and will always love you that God will never abandon you.  The father of the prodigal son did not reject his son simply because he had been away for too long, and neither will God, as we are all the prodigal son until the Holy Spirit allows us to see our sorry state.

How long did the shepherd search until he had found his hundredth lost sheep?  Eighty years, the span of your average human life?  Nothing of the sort - he "go(es) after the lost sheep until he finds it." (Luke 15:4)  The God of eternal torment is a God who does not go after lost sheep until he finds them.  The God of eternal torment is a God who is satisfied with five out of one hundred sheep, let alone ninety-nine.  The God of eternal torment is one who, when ninety-five of his sheep wander off, says, "I will let them go, because that is their free choice," and simply lets them die in the wilderness.  Or, if one believes in predestination, then God is even the one who caused his sheep to wander off in the first place, and thus is even directly responsible for their resulting death.  The God of eternal torment is, thus, perhaps the worst shepherd to have ever existed.  Thank God, then, that he is not the one in charge!

This is not our vain hope, nor is it idolatry.  This is the truth.  And the truth will set you free: free from the tortures, free from the pain, free from the guilt, free from the sorrow that a loving human being will hold for all eternity at the fate of those whom men have called doomed.  When God is all in you, you will rejoice and be free - and we are told no less than that God will be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:28)

[sven]

And from reading Calvinists of past generations, I think most of them have demented minds.

Calvin was a murderer (Servetus), that's telling about his followers in my opinion.

[Tim B]

And from reading Calvinists of past generations, I think most of them have demented minds.

Calvin was a murderer (Servetus), that's telling about his followers in my opinion.

And Luther hated Jews and said it was acceptable to kill peasants because, if I remember correctly, as he said, they're less than/equal to "dogs".

I'm not really sure why some people look up to him.

I also used to think that Aquinas was pretty cool, partly because he made philosophical cases for the existence of God. But then I realized that he taught that the saints would enjoy the pleasure of the torture and destruction of the wicked. My view of him went down the tubes. Whatever he might offer philosophically, it's nothing, like Paul the apostle said, without LOVE.

[WhiteWings]

And from reading Calvinists of past generations, I think most of them have demented minds.

Calvin was a murderer (Servetus), that's telling about his followers in my opinion.

And Luther hated Jews and said it was acceptable to kill peasants because, if I remember correctly, as he said, they're less than/equal to "dogs".

I'm not really sure why some people look up to him.

The same reason people look up to the KKK leader.
Because they are in the other group.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Funny though, you can kinda see how God used that hatred of Luther to break people free from the RCC stranglehold. Unfortunately, he apparently never got delivered of it later. Blessings.....

[peacemaker]

The words "but, however, still, nevertheless, and yet" are terms whose use implies
that what follows in some degree, opposes or contradicts that which precedes.

So as a man thinks!

peacemaker

[Paul Hazelwood]

"God is love, whether He saves all men, or does not save any man. God's love is not contingent on man's need of salvation, or on the result of universal quantification.

Well part of this is true.   God is Love,  Another part is true, it is not contingent on our need.  You propose that God is still love even if he does not save any man.  I suggest that is a contradiction to scripture. We can find in scripture that Love never fails, well, what is it that is cannot fail to do?   The association with love is that He did create us.  Whether he needed to or not is irrelevant, he did, so since He did there is an inherant action that will take place, that is the relevance we play in the picture.   No, it is not "about" us in the perspective that we can manipulate and control anything it is the inherant fact of the inevitable.

God reconciles all because thats how it is.

If in any manner we reason "God is love because He saves all men," we establish God's Being by a utilitarian process that defines God by what He does for man. This is the essence of idolatry, for idols are defined by how they serve, satisfy, and benefit man. Idols are constructed for man's well-being. We must not engage in the idolatry of making God a magical means to man's ends. Universalism often ends up being both humanistic and idolatrous as it constructs a "god" who is a universal producer of egalitarian benefits and blessings for man. The benefits and blessings are then elevated for worship, instead of worshipping and glorifying God for the worthiness of His own Being. We do not worship God for what He can do for us, but for Who He is in Himself.

This all sounds good and intelligent, but it is nothing but tripe.  I would be more able to get past the self idolotry of religious people as they claim to honor God no matter what he does if it were not so full of convuluted nonsense that will be explained as some kind of spiritual revelation.  Hog wash. the evidence of any truth here does not exist.  You claim to think God is righteous if he damned the whole human race into an infernal pit of misery for all eternity, but there are problems with that.

If God did that it would not be about him being glory and wonderous it would be about the human race having no means to do anything about it in the first place, simple as that.

Also you take a view that has disassociated itself from reality.   The reality is that there is no human that has ever been consigned to the truth of misery that has felt Gods righteousness as they came to believe that they might be one of the damned. Not one, that is a contradiction to something being true glory.

You might talk about God being righteous no matter what he does but you have disassociated your mind from the possibility that you are one of the chosen damned.  YOU ALL do it.   

Even those that think their own choices may put them in the pit of eternal misery are not consigned to glory.  They are consigned to misery, then we are back to Love never fails. Have some human minds been filled with such Satanic influence as to think Love never failing would be Love subjecting someone to eternal misery? 

The whole idea is a contradiction,  where are the ministers and pastors who have been given the truth of their OWN damnation at?  If the doctrine is right, then there should be a percentage of calvinists that preach that they themselves are damned and give God the glory for it and relish that Gods will be done.

Even fundamental Christians who believe their salvation was made in effect by their choice disassociate themselves from the reality of judgment.

What I see is the vast majority of Universalists understand that we are all to be judged, some can't wait for Gods judgment,  some such as myself may be apprehensive knowing that I'm not skating easily past the pearly gates.  Some may perhaps have a bit of that disassociation going on, but none that I know feel that universalism is the means to escape it.   We understand that falling intoo the hands of the living God is a fearful thing in the sense that it is so incomprehensible that it sounds scary, but we understand it will be for our own good.   This is not because we believe it and that makes it happen, it is because we understant the inherant inevitibility of what Gods Love does. 

That is a grounding in sound minds my friend.


But you will disassociate your opinions from that truth,  the truth is, if God is still Love  if it pleases him to damn you, then you cannot say he will not.  If it is not about what man thinks of God, then there is nothing you can say and preach in support of God that actually can prove or even cause him not to damn you if that is your destiny. 


When you actually realize why you cannot accept your own damnation as wonderous and glorious, then you will understand how rotten and vile this doctrine really is.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Many people just don't believe in the POWER of God. They make Him out to be little more than a politician who's trying desperately to get votes in any way possible, including using threats of torture!

But God is NOT man. When man stands before the GOD of all creation, he is transformed! It's as simple as that. No need to bicker, point fingers, lay a guilt trip. Man sees his Maker and is converted, just like Saul in Acts 9. Perhaps like a "chain reaction."


Christians also have this strange idea that God is somehow affected by our sin. But I am convinced that neither our "sin" nor our "good works" affect Him.


"All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name."


Psalm 139

1 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.


God KNOWS the man He made. NOTHING "takes Him by surprise!"

Do YOU believe in the POWER and GOODNESS of GOD??

[jesushandsarekindhands]

"God is love, whether He saves all men, or does not save any man. God's love is not contingent on man's need of salvation, or on the result of universal quantification.

Well part of this is true.   God is Love,  Another part is true, it is not contingent on our need.  You propose that God is still love even if he does not save any man.  I suggest that is a contradiction to scripture. We can find in scripture that Love never fails, well, what is it that is cannot fail to do?   The association with love is that He did create us.  Whether he needed to or not is irrelevant, he did, so since He did there is an inherant action that will take place, that is the relevance we play in the picture.   No, it is not "about" us in the perspective that we can manipulate and control anything it is the inherant fact of the inevitable.

God reconciles all because thats how it is.

If in any manner we reason "God is love because He saves all men," we establish God's Being by a utilitarian process that defines God by what He does for man. This is the essence of idolatry, for idols are defined by how they serve, satisfy, and benefit man. Idols are constructed for man's well-being. We must not engage in the idolatry of making God a magical means to man's ends. Universalism often ends up being both humanistic and idolatrous as it constructs a "god" who is a universal producer of egalitarian benefits and blessings for man. The benefits and blessings are then elevated for worship, instead of worshipping and glorifying God for the worthiness of His own Being. We do not worship God for what He can do for us, but for Who He is in Himself.

This all sounds good and intelligent, but it is nothing but tripe.  I would be more able to get past the self idolotry of religious people as they claim to honor God no matter what he does if it were not so full of convuluted nonsense that will be explained as some kind of spiritual revelation.  Hog wash. the evidence of any truth here does not exist.  You claim to think God is righteous if he damned the whole human race into an infernal pit of misery for all eternity, but there are problems with that.

If God did that it would not be about him being glory and wonderous it would be about the human race having no means to do anything about it in the first place, simple as that.

Also you take a view that has disassociated itself from reality.   The reality is that there is no human that has ever been consigned to the truth of misery that has felt Gods righteousness as they came to believe that they might be one of the damned. Not one, that is a contradiction to something being true glory.

You might talk about God being righteous no matter what he does but you have disassociated your mind from the possibility that you are one of the chosen damned.  YOU ALL do it.  

Even those that think their own choices may put them in the pit of eternal misery are not consigned to glory.  They are consigned to misery, then we are back to Love never fails. Have some human minds been filled with such Satanic influence as to think Love never failing would be Love subjecting someone to eternal misery? 

The whole idea is a contradiction,  where are the ministers and pastors who have been given the truth of their OWN damnation at?  If the doctrine is right, then there should be a percentage of calvinists that preach that they themselves are damned and give God the glory for it and relish that Gods will be done.

Even fundamental Christians who believe their salvation was made in effect by their choice disassociate themselves from the reality of judgment.

What I see is the vast majority of Universalists understand that we are all to be judged, some can't wait for Gods judgment,  some such as myself may be apprehensive knowing that I'm not skating easily past the pearly gates.  Some may perhaps have a bit of that disassociation going on, but none that I know feel that universalism is the means to escape it.   We understand that falling intoo the hands of the living God is a fearful thing in the sense that it is so incomprehensible that it sounds scary, but we understand it will be for our own good.   This is not because we believe it and that makes it happen, it is because we understant the inherant inevitibility of what Gods Love does. 

That is a grounding in sound minds my friend.


But you will disassociate your opinions from that truth,  the truth is, if God is still Love  if it pleases him to damn you, then you cannot say he will not.  If it is not about what man thinks of God, then there is nothing you can say and preach in support of God that actually can prove or even cause him not to damn you if that is your destiny. 


When you actually realize why you cannot accept your own damnation as wonderous and glorious, then you will understand how rotten and vile this doctrine really is.

Paul you really have a way with words, i could listen to you all day!

[Tim B]

"God is love, whether He saves all men, or does not save any man. God's love is not contingent on man's need of salvation, or on the result of universal quantification.

Well part of this is true.   God is Love,  Another part is true, it is not contingent on our need.  You propose that God is still love even if he does not save any man.  I suggest that is a contradiction to scripture. We can find in scripture that Love never fails, well, what is it that is cannot fail to do?   The association with love is that He did create us.  Whether he needed to or not is irrelevant, he did, so since He did there is an inherant action that will take place, that is the relevance we play in the picture.   No, it is not "about" us in the perspective that we can manipulate and control anything it is the inherant fact of the inevitable.

God reconciles all because thats how it is.

If in any manner we reason "God is love because He saves all men," we establish God's Being by a utilitarian process that defines God by what He does for man. This is the essence of idolatry, for idols are defined by how they serve, satisfy, and benefit man. Idols are constructed for man's well-being. We must not engage in the idolatry of making God a magical means to man's ends. Universalism often ends up being both humanistic and idolatrous as it constructs a "god" who is a universal producer of egalitarian benefits and blessings for man. The benefits and blessings are then elevated for worship, instead of worshipping and glorifying God for the worthiness of His own Being. We do not worship God for what He can do for us, but for Who He is in Himself.

This all sounds good and intelligent, but it is nothing but tripe.  I would be more able to get past the self idolotry of religious people as they claim to honor God no matter what he does if it were not so full of convuluted nonsense that will be explained as some kind of spiritual revelation.  Hog wash. the evidence of any truth here does not exist.  You claim to think God is righteous if he damned the whole human race into an infernal pit of misery for all eternity, but there are problems with that.

If God did that it would not be about him being glory and wonderous it would be about the human race having no means to do anything about it in the first place, simple as that.

Also you take a view that has disassociated itself from reality.   The reality is that there is no human that has ever been consigned to the truth of misery that has felt Gods righteousness as they came to believe that they might be one of the damned. Not one, that is a contradiction to something being true glory.

You might talk about God being righteous no matter what he does but you have disassociated your mind from the possibility that you are one of the chosen damned.  YOU ALL do it.   

Even those that think their own choices may put them in the pit of eternal misery are not consigned to glory.  They are consigned to misery, then we are back to Love never fails. Have some human minds been filled with such Satanic influence as to think Love never failing would be Love subjecting someone to eternal misery? 

The whole idea is a contradiction,  where are the ministers and pastors who have been given the truth of their OWN damnation at?  If the doctrine is right, then there should be a percentage of calvinists that preach that they themselves are damned and give God the glory for it and relish that Gods will be done.

Even fundamental Christians who believe their salvation was made in effect by their choice disassociate themselves from the reality of judgment.

What I see is the vast majority of Universalists understand that we are all to be judged, some can't wait for Gods judgment,  some such as myself may be apprehensive knowing that I'm not skating easily past the pearly gates.  Some may perhaps have a bit of that disassociation going on, but none that I know feel that universalism is the means to escape it.   We understand that falling intoo the hands of the living God is a fearful thing in the sense that it is so incomprehensible that it sounds scary, but we understand it will be for our own good.   This is not because we believe it and that makes it happen, it is because we understant the inherant inevitibility of what Gods Love does. 

That is a grounding in sound minds my friend.


But you will disassociate your opinions from that truth,  the truth is, if God is still Love  if it pleases him to damn you, then you cannot say he will not.  If it is not about what man thinks of God, then there is nothing you can say and preach in support of God that actually can prove or even cause him not to damn you if that is your destiny. 


When you actually realize why you cannot accept your own damnation as wonderous and glorious, then you will understand how rotten and vile this doctrine really is.

So absolutely true.

I HATE the hatred (of men such as these)!!

[Tim B]

And from reading Calvinists of past generations, I think most of them have demented minds.

Calvin was a murderer (Servetus), that's telling about his followers in my opinion.

And Luther hated Jews and said it was acceptable to kill peasants because, if I remember correctly, as he said, they're less than/equal to "dogs".

I'm not really sure why some people look up to him.

The same reason people look up to the KKK leader.
Because they are in the other group.

Too true.  :sigh:

[dboutwell]

I don't see how this guy can separate God from humanity like he does... Don't worship Him because of what He has done for us? My goodness, HE is the one that made us. It's not like we made ourselves then just happen to find this "God" that wants to help us out.. We are part of Him.

It's gonna be funny when God's love overwhelms this guy.

Debbie

[WhiteWings]

I don't see how this guy can separate God from humanity like he does... Don't worship Him because of what He has done for us? My goodness, HE is the one that made us. It's not like we made ourselves then just happen to find this "God" that wants to help us out.. We are part of Him.

It's gonna be funny when God's love overwhelms this guy.

Debbie

Actually the guy says nothing.
He's right that we make an idol out of God if we 'make Him have' a personality we like.
But UR doesn't disagree on that. But still that's his only argument.
Before you can determine if someone does idol worshipping you need to find out the true nature of God.
And that is conveniently bypassed....

[bobf]

If in any manner we reason "God is love because He saves all men," we establish God's Being by a utilitarian process that defines God by what He does for man.

So if we love God because of something God did for us (like forgave us) that's idolatry?

Jesus didn't think so...

Luke 7:40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. 41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. 42  And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most.  43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

Neither did John...

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.