Gehenna not trash dump?

[jabcat]

"the eventual reconciliation of ALL...even the valleys of unspeakable evil"

Amen.  Since God will reconcile/restore His whole creation, even those ugly, evil places will be made new.  Hallelujah.

For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.  Habakkuk 2:14

[micah7:9]

"the eventual reconciliation of ALL...even the valleys of unspeakable evil"

Amen.  Since God will reconcile/restore His whole creation, even those ugly, evil places will be made new.  Hallelujah.

For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.  Habakkuk 2:14

Amen  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Yes, I obviously remember this thread.   :grin:

You 'lil' brainiac  :happygrin: 

I thought there was much to glean here.

It may turn out a strong pillar for UR.

What is actually fairly new to me is the fact that the Bible speaks about Gehenna, Sodom and other unholy cities becoming holy.  My Old Testament is weak so this is an area of new learning for me.

Ever wondered why there are NT only Bibles but not OT only for Christians.
Many, on this forum and elsewhere, are of the opinion that OT has mostly become obsolete. I don't agree. I think also think that without understanding Jewish culture the Bible can't be truly understood. But sadly when that's discussed 'you' are accused of trying to muddle the waters with the dead letter of the law.

But, what is intriguing to me is still interesting even now.  I never understood why a trash dump could be a reference to a place of purification.  It never seemed like a proper analogy.

Fire converts from a solid state to gassy (spirit) form is the argument of some iirc.
Somewhere on this forum is also something about the worms having a deeper meaning. They are red and stick/protect something. All very vague. To vague for me to even attempt a search on this forum. Maybe someone can help...?

Being referred to as the cursed valley where unspeakable evils happened makes some sense, but never seemed to correlate with purification to me.

There is nothing purifying about a trash heap. But Isa speak about the God breathing a massive torrent of sulphuric fire through the valley. Brimstone is almost considered divine...



But, when you look at Jeremiah 31 and you see restoration things begin to match up with what we believe.  Which is the eventual reconciliation of ALL...even the valleys of unspeakable evil.

Yes, I obviously remember this thread.     Me, you, Jab and Molly discussed it but it didn't generate much interest.

I suggest we all reread the thread and kindle the fire  :winkgrin:

[Molly]

"the eventual reconciliation of ALL...even the valleys of unspeakable evil"

Amen.  Since God will reconcile/restore His whole creation, even those ugly, evil places will be made new.  Hallelujah.

For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.  Habakkuk 2:14

As waters cover the sea, on the face of it, seems redundant.  It begs us to look at the metaphor of the OT.  Sea itself is a metaphor of all peoples--that is, humanity.  But what of water?


"WATER,  as a metaphor"

"Water," representing truth and knowledge, is probably the most  frequently used metaphor in the Old Testament and is very often missed. It shouldn't be, though, when we remember that a vine, metaphorically, meaning the Lord's people, needs spiritual watering and nurturing. Not only is Israel, collectively, considered as the Lords vine, but so is each of his children, individually. It is used hundreds of times in these ways (See Isa. 5:2-7; Psa. 80:8 for examples.). It is a small step to extend this metaphor to include water and light, recognizing that "vines" need "water" and "light" to do well. Even so, it is amazing how often we fail to recognize this use of "water" in the Old Testament, especially  when Jesus used it so plainly in the New Testament. Jesus said, "Whosoever drinketh of this water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life" (John 4:14). That water, of course, is his Gospel, which is the knowledge of how to "grow" into "everlasting life." He went on to tell us that he even personifies that water by saying "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink, (John 7:37)." In other words he is saying, If any man thirsts for spiritual knowledge, "I am that water," which means he is the way, the only way to salvation, and is, therefore, the Messiah. (Cf. Rev. 7:15-17--"the Lamb. . .shall lead them unto living fountains of waters.)

Recently the importance of this metaphor was brought back to my attention. After I had studied and written about the meanings of "water" in the scriptures for many years, one day in a Sunday school class the teacher dropped a bomb on me, so to speak. She casually gave the class the definition of the Hebrew word for "prophet" from Smith's Bible Dictionary.  What a great thing to learn; and it is unlikely I would have ever made this connection myself  because it is doubtful I would have ever looked this up.  This simple definition fit in with everything I had learned about this important metaphor.  It also gave my testimony of the gospel another big boost. Incidentally, Smith's Bible Dictionary is on the inter-net.

The ordinary Hebrew word for prophet is nabi , derived from a verb signifying "to bubble forth" like a fountain; hence the word means one who announces or pours forth the declarations of God. The English word comes from the Greek prophetes (profetes ), which signifies in classical Greek one who speaks for another , especially one who speaks for a god , and so interprets his will to man; hence its essential meaning is "an interpreter." The use of the word in its modern sense as "one who predicts" is post-classical. The larger sense of interpretation has not, however, been lost. In fact the English word ways been used in a closer sense.  (Underlining added)

A quick connection is easy to see when the above words of Jesus are considered, but it has a much greater significance. Because it is so well known you would think we would never miss this metaphor of "water" representing the  truth or gospel, but it's easy to do in the Old Testament. Isaiah, alone, speaks of water this way  a minimum of  thirty-three times. In addition, he refers back to this metaphor using words such as thirst, dry, and drought. When he speaks of the wilderness, meaning a spiritual wilderness, he is still referring to this metaphor because the wilderness (where people live without the Gospel) is a wilderness because of the lack of "water" (spiritual truth). This is made more than clear when he talks about the wilderness becoming flooded with springs and streams and pools of water (Isa. 35:6-7). He is talking about floods of spiritual knowledge coming to them, not just rain. Look for this metaphor constantly; it's everywhere in the Old Testament, even taking on other forms such as ice and snow. In the early chapters of Isaiah (of curses) he takes away their water, making spiritual Israel a desert (3:1,5:13, 19:5-6), and in later chapters (of blessing), their "water" is restored in abundance (35:6-7, 41:18).

The following verse, in a synonymous parallelism, teaches clearly that water is knowledge of God.

Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge;
And the honorable men are famished, and their multitude drieth up with thirst. (Isa. 5:13).

The "honorable men are famished" (hungry and thirsty), meaning they have neither bread nor water--the bread and water represents knowledge. They are "gone into captivity" in two ways: by Assyria, and by Satan, and for the same reason--because of their ignorance of God. Consider these lines from the same chapter: (Isa. 5:6-7)

I will lay it waste, that vineyard.[Israel]
It shall not be pruned, neither digged,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.[wicked]
I will command the clouds that they not rain.
For the vineyard of the LORD is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah, his pleasant plant.

It means that the Lord will withdraw his help or guidance, which is represented by "pruning," "digging," and "watering." And when he does withdraw, the men of Judah become "briers and thorns" instead of his "pleasant plant" (righteous ones). The following verses also use plants (which need water) to represent people. He uses "trees" for the righteous, "thorns and briers" for the wicked: (Isaiah 53:13)

For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace;
The mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing,
And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree,
And instead of the brier, the myrtle tree.

It means Israel "shall go out" of the wicked world with "joy" and "peace," which is salvation. The "mountains and hills" is the Lord's mountain, where all those live who have lifted themselves up and out of the realm of Satan (the deep) by keeping the commandments of God. It is Zion, the pure in heart. They "sing" out of happiness for your salvation. "All the trees" (which are righteous people) "of the field" are also joyous for you. Instead of "thorns and briers," there will be "trees" (the righteous) in Israel.

Because "water" and its other forms are used so frequently, learning to recognize just this metaphor is crucial to understanding the Old Testament. The Book of Job uses water, and the other forms of water, such as rain, hail, snow, and frost, metaphorically many times. Most of the time they are used in synonymous parallelisms so the meaning is more clear. Surely, we know that "meat," as well as "bread" is used often in the scriptures to represent truth, and when paralleled with water, snow, or hail, as in these next verses (Job 36:27-31), we know what is meant.

For he (God) maketh small the drops of water:
They pour down rain according to the vapor thereof;
Which the clouds do drop and distill upon man abundantly.
For by them judgeth he the people; he giveth meat in abundance.

It means God will judge the people by the "rain" which he has poured down. Rain or water can only represent knowledge in these verses. And, it makes sense that a righteous God could only judge his children by the knowledge he has given them. If water or rain isn't God's word, then what will he judge his people by? The metaphor of water is explained further by the better known metaphor of meat, which is spiritual food. Now Job 28:20-25):

Whence then cometh wisdom?
God understandeth the way thereof, and he knoweth the place thereof.
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven:


Whence then cometh wisdom? Is rain wisdom, literally? Clearly, again, water represents knowledge from God, it is only distributed like rain. Wisdom is weighed out by God and distributed like rain. A verse from Isaiah 40:11 and 12, should help with this explanation.

He shall feed his flock like a shepherd:
He shall gather the lambs with his arm,
who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, . . .

Here Isaiah has described a peaceful scene with God protecting, gathering and nurturing his disciples or followers. The "shepherd" will "feed" his flock with the water (his word) that he has measured in the cup of his hand. This suggests Isaiah's concept, "line upon line, precept upon precept" (28:10). God gives men knowledge as they grow and can accept it, just as one would water a plant. Listen to Deut. 32:2: "My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distill as the dew as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass." Perhaps it is this idea that caused God to direct Isaiah to exclaim, "All flesh is grass (40:6)." Not only do we live and then pass on quickly like grass, we also need frequent "watering." Job 38:33-36, suggests how we can increase these "waters" for ourselves.

Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven?
Canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds,
that abundance of waters may cover thee?
Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts?
or who hath given understanding to the heart?

Again, waters and wisdom are used together as if they are synonymous, and they are when you know what is meant. No wonder many people find the Old Testament difficult to read.

Isaiah 25:10,11 uses these symbols in a simile: "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth the bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: so shall my word be that goeth forth from my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

Isaiah 3:1 is another verse that uses bread and water to represent spiritual knowledge of God:

For, behold, the Lord, the Lord of Hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah,
the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water,

This verse does not mean there will be a famine and drought. It means that God is going to "turn away his face" so Israel will not know him or his ways. The verse that follows (3:2) is a synonymous parallelism with this verse, and explains what taking away their water and bread means--how all wisdom and leadership will fail in Israel: [The Lord of Hosts will take away] "The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient, The captain of fifty, and the honorable man, and the counselor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator." This means they will loose all of their spiritual leadership. Isaiah 1:2 explained why, "I (God) have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me." It should be pointed out that this means the Jews had nothing left of the true knowledge of God, even by the time of the exile. They are still in a "drought." (Cf. Amos 8:11,12.)

You might think that far too much time has been spent on this metaphor already, that you understand it; however, this next series of Exodus stories should convince you differently. If we combine what we have learned about "water" to what we have learned about types and similitudes, Israel's exodus forecasts a complete picture of what Israel (the Jews) can look for in their future. A careful review of these "types" in Exodus reveals the signposts that all candidates for "Israel," Jew and Gentile, should look for in their quest of the truth, in these last days.

More at...

http://www.biblesecrets.org/METAPHOR.htm

[Molly]

Many, on this forum and elsewhere, are of the opinion that OT has mostly become obsolete. I don't agree. I think also think that without understanding Jewish culture the Bible can't be truly understood. But sadly when that's discussed 'you' are accused of trying to muddle the waters with the dead letter of the law.

Unfair!  You should know by now that I love the OT, that I see Jesus all over the OT.

I agree with you that we need to understand Jewish culture, [as it pertains to Christ].

Everything Jesus, Paul, and the Apostles taught comes right out of the OT.  They didn't change anything--they just revealed it--which you are also very good at, ww. :icon_king:


Cor.10:1-4

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant,
how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
And did all drink the same spiritual drink:
for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them:
and that Rock was Christ.

[reFORMer]

In this thread there are numerous quotations from leaders in the prevalent "Christianity" of their time.  I have discovered certain things are very important in getting the most out of our use of these sources. It is important to know about the development of Christian belief and practice and where this fits in the period of time in which they lived.  Sometimes certain incongruous  particulars appear from this knowledge.  To know the original language in which they wrote is useful for various reasons.  Translators in ancient times would often embellish another's work without notice to the readers.  Something we received in Latin, for instance, by recasting into its original Greek may provide some insight.  Another point to discover is how old are the documents quoted.  How close in time are they to the proposed author?  The following excerpt concerning "The Origin of Pastors" from elsewhere on this site may illustrate.

It wasn't until the year 107 that we have historical evidence of one elder being elevated in authority over other believers.  On his way to being martyred in Rome Ignatius (b.35-d.107) wrote seven letters.  (Since the oldest copy of his letters is from about a thousand years later and their content very much predates such concepts in the contemporaneous culture, we should ask how much of what he said was inserted by others much later.)  While we will no doubt enjoy fellowship together one day, he didn't follow the teaching of Jesus and the apostles concerning the church but admitted it was the Roman political structures he sought to copy for strength against his perceived threat of heresy.  He taught baptism, the Lord's Supper, marriage, counseling, exhorting and so on and on was to be done only by the Bishop or when He was present.  This  practice of one overseer  (mono episcopacy) took another 50 to 100 years to become the norm. Even so, it must be remembered the bishop was over a city of house churches.  To have one pastor over a specific congregation had to wait until the end of the 1500's when Lutherans started calling their priests pastors.

[reFORMer]

Somewhere on this forum is also something about the worms having a deeper meaning. They are red and stick/protect something. All very vague. To vague for me to even attempt a search on this forum. Maybe someone can help...?

Worms eat garbage and turn it into good dirt.

[Molly]

To have one pastor over a specific congregation had to wait until the end of the 1500's when Lutherans started calling their priests pastors.

One could argue that represents progress.  God's priests are to be pastors of the fold [Jesus to Peter: 'feed my sheep'].  But, still one must admit that priests are ordained by God, not by men.  To get around this problem of men ordaining priests, God appointed one tribe to handle the priesthood in the OT, the Levites.

But in the NT, we have transitioned to the Melchizedek priesthood, based not on birth, or identification as men, but on an eternal life through Christ.

Just because we talk on this board as a group of priests amongst ourselves does not mean that there are not still sheep who need to be fed, even ourselves... :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

Somewhere on this forum is also something about the worms having a deeper meaning. They are red and stick/protect something. All very vague. To vague for me to even attempt a search on this forum. Maybe someone can help...?

Worms eat garbage and turn it into good dirt.

That's true. But not what I mean. The worms are of a special type they are red/crimson or their slime is.
Dunno if it's relevant to this thread. My memory of it is to vague.

[WhiteWings]

Found a post by RoseRed

seems two types of worm [man is comparable to a worm in a few scriptures]  one where  they breed/ multiply  in corruption / decay /death
  the other is pretty interesting  the scarlet stuff
   If the Fire is comparable to God being the consuming Fire  and and the firey trials we  do  go though in this life [each one different times and different ways  as always been , will be and will continue ] , it very well makes  good sense 




Exd 16:24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.  Strong's H7415 - rimmah    worm bread by purification 1) maggot, worm (as cause and sign of decay)
From רָמַם (H7426) in the sense of breeding [compare רוּם (H7311)] 2) (Qal) to be rotten, be wormy a) (Qal) to be exalted

Job 17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou [art] my father: to the worm, [Thou art] my mother, and my sister.
Job 24:20 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.
Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm? and the son of man, [which is] a worm?
1) worm, scarlet stuff, crimson

a) worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'

b) scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet

1) the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"

2) worm, maggot

a) worm, grub

b) the worm "coccus ilicis"When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)

Psa 22:6 But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, [and] ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 51:8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Jon 4:7 But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Strong's G4663 - skōlēx 1) a worm, spec. that kind which preys upon dead bodies
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9
   Jesus went on to say, "I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Kingdom of God arrive in great power!"

The Transfiguration
2 Six days later Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up a high mountain to be alone. As the men watched, Jesus' appearance was transformed, 3 and his clothes became dazzling white, far whiter than any earthly bleach could ever make them. 4 Then Elijah and Moses appeared and began talking with Jesus.
5 Peter exclaimed, "Rabbi, it's wonderful for us to be here! Let's make three shelters as memorialsa]—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." 6 He said this because he didn't really know what else to say, for they were all terrified.

7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my dearly loved Son. Listen to him." 8 Suddenly, when they looked around, Moses and Elijah were gone, and they saw only Jesus with them.

9 As they went back down the mountain, he told them not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Manb] had risen from the dead. 10 So they kept it to themselves, but they often asked each other what he meant by "rising from the dead."

11 Then they asked him, "Why do the teachers of religious law insist that Elijah must return before the Messiah comes?c]"

12 Jesus responded, "Elijah is indeed coming first to get everything ready. Yet why do the Scriptures say that the Son of Man must suffer greatly and be treated with utter contempt? 13 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they chose to abuse him, just as the Scriptures predicted."

Jesus Heals a Demon-Possessed Boy
14 When they returned to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd surrounding them, and some teachers of religious law were arguing with them. 15 When the crowd saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with awe, and they ran to greet him.
16 "What is all this arguing about?" Jesus asked.

17 One of the men in the crowd spoke up and said, "Teacher, I brought my son so you could heal him. He is possessed by an evil spirit that won't let him talk. 18 And whenever this spirit seizes him, it throws him violently to the ground. Then he foams at the mouth and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid.d] So I asked your disciples to cast out the evil spirit, but they couldn't do it."

19 Jesus said to them,e] "You faithless people! How long must I be with you? How long must I put up with you? Bring the boy to me."

20 So they brought the boy. But when the evil spirit saw Jesus, it threw the child into a violent convulsion, and he fell to the ground, writhing and foaming at the mouth.

21 "How long has this been happening?" Jesus asked the boy's father.

   He replied, "Since he was a little boy. 22 The spirit often throws him into the fire or into water, trying to kill him. Have mercy on us and help us, if you can."

23 "What do you mean, 'If I can'?" Jesus asked. "Anything is possible if a person believes."

24 The father instantly cried out, "I do believe, but help me overcome my unbelief!"

25 When Jesus saw that the crowd of onlookers was growing, he rebuked the evilf] spirit. "Listen, you spirit that makes this boy unable to hear and speak," he said. "I command you to come out of this child and never enter him again!"

26 Then the spirit screamed and threw the boy into another violent convulsion and left him. The boy appeared to be dead. A murmur ran through the crowd as people said, "He's dead." 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up.

28 Afterward, when Jesus was alone in the house with his disciples, they asked him, "Why couldn't we cast out that evil spirit?"

29 Jesus replied, "This kind can be cast out only by prayer.g]"

Jesus Again Predicts His Death
30 Leaving that region, they traveled through Galilee. Jesus didn't want anyone to know he was there, 31 for he wanted to spend more time with his disciples and teach them. He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of his enemies. He will be killed, but three days later he will rise from the dead." 32 They didn't understand what he was saying, however, and they were afraid to ask him what he meant.
The Greatest in the Kingdom
33 After they arrived at Capernaum and settled in a house, Jesus asked his disciples, "What were you discussing out on the road?" 34 But they didn't answer, because they had been arguing about which of them was the greatest. 35 He sat down, called the twelve disciples over to him, and said, "Whoever wants to be first must take last place and be the servant of everyone else."
36 Then he put a little child among them. Taking the child in his arms, he said to them, 37 "Anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalfh] welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes not only me but also my Father who sent me."

Using the Name of Jesus
38 John said to Jesus, "Teacher, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he wasn't in our group."
39 "Don't stop him!" Jesus said. "No one who performs a miracle in my name will soon be able to speak evil of me. 40 Anyone who is not against us is for us. 41 If anyone gives you even a cup of water because you belong to the Messiah, I tell you the truth, that person will surely be rewarded.

42 "But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone hung around your neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of helli] with two hands.j] 45 If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one foot than to be thrown into hell with two feet.k] 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It's better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 'where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.'l]

49 "For everyone will be tested with fire.m] 50 Salt is good for seasoning. But if it loses its flavor, how do you make it salty again? You must have the qualities of salt among yourselves and live in peace with each other."


Footnotes:
Mark 9:5 Greek three tabernacles.
Mark 9:9 "Son of Man" is a title Jesus used for himself.
Mark 9:11 Greek that Elijah must come first?
Mark 9:18 Or becomes weak.
Mark 9:19 Or said to his disciples.
Mark 9:25 Greek unclean.
Mark 9:29 Some manuscripts read by prayer and fasting.
Mark 9:37 Greek in my name.
Mark 9:43 Greek Gehenna; also in 9:45, 47.
Mark 9:43 Some manuscripts add verse 44, 'where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.' See 9:48.
Mark 9:45 Some manuscripts add verse 46, 'where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.' See 9:48.
Mark 9:48 Isa 66:24.
Mark 9:49 Greek salted with fire; other manuscripts add and every sacrifice will be salted with salt. 

[Molly]

Somewhere on this forum is also something about the worms having a deeper meaning. They are red and stick/protect something. All very vague. To vague for me to even attempt a search on this forum. Maybe someone can help...?

Worms eat garbage and turn it into good dirt.

That's true. But not what I mean. The worms are of a special type they are red/crimson or their slime is.
Dunno if it's relevant to this thread. My memory of it is to vague.

The word "worm," as used by Bildad [Book of Job] and the Psalmist, is the Hebrew word towla' to -law' and (fem) towle'ah to-lay-aw'. The word occurs 43 times in our Bible and it is translated scarlet 34 times, worm 8 times, and crimson 1 time.

Pause for a moment and think of how often the word scarlet is associated with the Tabernacle, the Temple and the priestly garments. In each instance, the word is exactly the same that is translated worm in Ps. 22:6 and Job 25:6. Why would a color be associated with a worm?

The answer is simple, the towle'ah worm is also known as the coccus ilicis - the female scarlet worm. This unusual worm was designed by our Heavenly Father to securely and permanently attach her body to the trunk of a tree when she was ready to give birth to her young. Her deposited eggs would remain under her body until they hatched, then to continue their independent life cycles. However, the mother would die, staining both her body and the surrounding wood scarlet. Commercial scarlet dyes were derived from the dead bodies of the female scarlet worms. Likewise, Christ the Son of Man shed His "Precious Blood" (1 Peter 1:19) and sacrificed His Life for us. "Who His Own Self bare our sins in His Own Body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto Righteousness: by Whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Peter 2:24).

http://www.biblicalexaminer.org/Unpublished/Worms.html

[WhiteWings]

Quote from Taffy:


Mar 9:42

the worm that dieth not, a C and P made to WW sometime back

Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?((rimmah=maggot) and the son of man, [which is] a worm (towla=crimson worm)

Two types

A maggot and a Worm...

towla

When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)


Maggots eat only the flesh of the DEAD,then eventually it CHANGES into a fly....IT DOESNT DIE.

The transformation of moving from Death to LIFE as is the Resurrection unto LIFE

[Molly]

Metamorphosis.

[Molly]

14Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

15Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.

16Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.

17When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.

18I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.

19I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the acacia tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:

20That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

--Isa 41

[WhiteWings]

Mark 9:44 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
Note: This verse is not in Rotherham.

Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?((rimmah=maggot) and the son of man, [which is] a worm (towla=crimson worm)

The question is what type of worm is there in Gehenna?

The worm from Mark 9:44
σκώληξ
skōlēx
Thayer Definition:
1) a worm, spec. that kind which preys upon dead bodies
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: of uncertain derivation
Citing in TDNT: 7:452, 1054
Greek  LXX version of Job
Not very sure because the verse numbering is different and the verse only mentions 1 worm. (and rottingness which perhaps is the maggot?
The skōlēx

So the Gehenna worm is the type Job compared with Jesus.

[Molly]

REPENTANCE AS A LIFESTYLE
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The closest word we have in English to the meaning of the Greek word metanoia—as used in the original scriptural text—is "metamorphosis," or the life cycle of change as seen when the caterpillar becomes a butterfly. If we look closely at the concept of metamorphosis we might find insight into the process of metanoia, and the importance of repentance in our lives.

metanoia=repentance

Metanoia as Metamorphosis


The Enabling.

The Monarch butterfly starts life as a little egg clinging to a milkweed leaf. The egg hatches only a few days after being laid and the larva that emerges from the egg becomes the first stage of the butterfly's life. At that point the larva is only one twenty-fifth of an inch long. Its first meal consists of its own egg casing. But from then on, the caterpillar eats only milkweed. Through this exclusive meal, the caterpillar develops a natural defense system against the toxicity of the milkweed which is poisonous to birds—the Monarch butterflies' natural predator.

The caterpillar eats nonstop for three days, and then begins to molt for the next three weeks. During this time he adds colorful stripes. Two more weeks of nonstop eating follows. At this point, the caterpillar is two inches long and 2,700 times its original weight. If a 6 pound baby grew as fast as a Monarch caterpillar, it would weigh eight tons in twelve days. After its varocious eating spree, the caterpillar then begins to climb until it finds the right place for its cocoon.

The Equipping.

Once it finds a suitable place, it produces silk and weaves a small button that it firmly attaches to a twig. Near the caterpillars rear legs is a small hook-shaped apendage called a cremaster which the caterpillar hooks into the silk button and gently hangs from the twig forming a "J" shaped silhouette. The caterpillar molts for one last time and its stripes turn into a milky green sheath called a chrysalis. As the chrysalis hardens into a green case, gold dots appear. Depending on the air temperature, in a little less than fifteen days the case turns transparent and the Monarch butterflies' golden wings show through.

Soon the chrysalis shakes and splits and the Monarch butterfly emerges. At first, the Monarch is wet, crumpled and looks exhausted and vulnerable. The Monarch begins transferring fluid from its plump stomach to the veins in its wings. The butterfly must hang vertically and allow its wings to fully expand and dry before it can fly. If the butterfly flew off immediately, it would starve because its proboscis or feeding tube is disconnected and must also spring into place. Once in place, the proboscis supplies the butterfly with nectar and water. When not in use, it coils up under the Monarchs head, like a watch spring. Soon, the velvety wings become smooth and dry and the Monarch caterpillar has successfully changed into a Monarch butterfly and the "metamorphosis" is complete.

The process of metamorphosis is both enabling and equipping.

http://www.metanoiaministries.org/Metamorphosis.html

[Taffy]

The closest word we have in English to the meaning of the Greek word metanoia—as used in the original scriptural text—is "metamorphosis," or the life cycle of change as seen when the caterpillar becomes a butterfly. If we look closely at the concept of metamorphosis we might find insight into the process of metanoia, and the importance of repentance in our lives.

metanoia=repentance

Metanoia as Metamorphosis

:icon_flower:Hi Molly
the change from a Maggot to a fly may not be the exact type of metamorphisis as  pictured by the caterpillar and Butterfly [ who lives for but a """DAY"""] :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

The closest word we have in English to the meaning of the Greek word metanoia—as used in the original scriptural text—is "metamorphosis,"

What about Transformers - maggots in disguise :laughing7:

[Taffy]

The closest word we have in English to the meaning of the Greek word metanoia—as used in the original scriptural text—is "metamorphosis,"

What about Transformers - maggots in disguise :laughing7:

:icon_flower:

[Taffy]

"the eventual reconciliation of ALL...even the valleys of unspeakable evil"

Amen.  Since God will reconcile/restore His whole creation, even those ugly, evil places will be made new.  Hallelujah.

For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.   Habakkuk 2:14


As waters cover the sea, on the face of it, seems redundant.  It begs us to look at the metaphor of the OT.  Sea itself is a metaphor of all peoples--that is, humanity.  But what of water?

For mine the "WATERS which COVERS the sea "are the HEAVENS ABOVE being LIGHTof Knowledge of HIM being the NC- the sea Beneath are the LIVING dead[likened to the OC]- HE covers the SIN within the SEA beneath


Mic 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

Isa 57:20 But the wicked[ are the dead to HIM] [are] like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
ISNT Jonah a Christ Type too? Jon 1:12 And he said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest [is] upon you.

Jonah too was SLEEPING in the Boat-- sounds very much like the ship IN acts WHERE Christ to was asleep- :icon_flower:

In revelation it Notes the""SEA"""give up their dead? Isnt it the POWER of the Cross which RAISES the DEAD? AND HADES too being cast into the LAKE of FIRE---Its the Cross for mine Guys---   also theres much to be said about the SHIPS which sail in the SEA----- :icon_flower:

[redhotmagma]

From a conscious standpoint (not that caterpillars are conscious) the only thing the caterpillar needs to do is feed (on the manna) and go to the place to latch on to (the vine).  The caterpillar doesn't tell itself to molt, or to create the chrysalis, nor breathe for that matter.  That is innately built in by the breath of life.  The desire for the Word and the directions to the place for the metanoia are given by Him too.  Its not like you wake up in the morning and say I need to breathe today, I need to get my digestive enzymes flowing.  We just need to go the kitchen and get some breakfast :dsunny:

[Taffy]

From a conscious standpoint (not that caterpillars are conscious) the only thing the caterpillar needs to do is feed (on the manna) and go to the place to latch on to (the vine).  The caterpillar doesn't tell itself to molt, or to create the chrysalis, nor breathe for that matter.  That is innately built in by the breath of life.  The desire for the Word and the directions to the place for the metanoia are given by Him too.  Its not like you wake up in the morning and say I need to breathe today, I need to get my digestive enzymes flowing.  We just need to go the kitchen and get some breakfast :dsunny:

:icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

This cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)

If anyone has the word used to translate forever here that would be greatly appreciated.

Anyone with a Hebrew or Greek version of Enoch?

[Nathan]

Hate to keep kicking the same horse here . . .but wasn't that what God did with Lot?  Didn't he extend to him righteous judgment???  Destroyed the wickedness forever . . . not the one aflicted by it.

[Taffy]

Hate to keep kicking the same horse here . . .but wasn't that what God did with Lot?  Didn't he extend to him righteous judgment???  Destroyed the wickedness forever . . . not the one aflicted by it.

True Judgment meaning Mercy and Compassion given through the Judgment HE BORE for US :HeartThrob: