Scriptural Refutation of "213 Brainless Questions Without Answers" by Gary Spamereault
QuoteBelow, is a list of 213 questions that will help to clarify God's plan of salvation as set forth in the Holy Bible, so that when questions are asked, correct answers can be given. To those holding a limited view of God's plan of salvation, they are truly Questions Without Answers, but, to those who rely on God's Word, the answers become apparent as His truth is revealed to them.
The questions were written by A. C. Thomas and appeared in a book by E. H. Lake, entitled "The Key to Truth".
Now the Questions:
Gary: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html
Debunker: http://www.1john57.com/213refutations.htm
Answers: http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
Black is Gary. Red is the refuter. Black is me trying to refute the refuter..
1. As we are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44) Only those saved by the blood of Jesus Christ can truly indeed love His enemies. Apart from Jesus Christ, we can do nothing. (John 15:5)
The answer avoids the question. Is God not capable doing anything without Jesus....?
2.If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good? God's love for every single created being does not save, for all have sinned (Romans 3:10, 3:23) and all have fallen short of the glory of God. God righteously punishes those that refused the free gift of salvation for they have no excuse (Romans 1:20). Because they can choose between good and evil(2Peter 2:10). Self-willed means self-willed against God's will(2Peter2:10). When a Christian sins, is this God's will or Man's will?
AFAIK UR doesn't claim God let sins go unpunished. They are corrective, effective and therefore ending.
3 and many others: See 2
Most questions are about that UR doesn't know punishment.
Does divine justice demand the infliction of pain from which mercy recoils? Yes. For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
But where does it say that the punishment goes on forever?
If the demands of divine justice are opposed to the requirements of mercy, is not God divided against Himself? Ridiculous question! God did not sin, man did. When man sinned, death entered in by sin(Romans 5:12). Mankind has a problem with death, God does not for only God is immortal and incorruptible (1Tim 6:16, 1:17). Man is mortal and corruptible (1Cor 15:42-54). God must punish all presence of sin because there is no darkness in God whatsoever. If anyone rejects the only perfect sacrifice paid on the cross by Jesus Christ, there remains no other sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26). Time does not wash away sin, nor does punishment, nor does paying with money. Only the blood of Jesus Christ and there is no other name given (Acts 4:12).
The question is not about man but about God....
If God CAN save all men, but WILL NOT, is He infinite in goodness? Yes, all of God's attributes are infinite. It is the sin of mankind that is not good. God cannot be a part of any sin whatsoever. God does not force salvation unto all creation. God did not force Lucifer to fall from heaven, it was Lucifer HIMSELF (Ezekiel 28:17) that corrupted himself. Not God. Likewise with Adam and Eve. Both were created in perfection, completely immortal until they chose to sin which brought forth death.
Adam, Eve and Lucifer weren't perfect. If they where they wouldn't have the possiblity of sin in them. Just like God.
wow WW !!
THIS is intense bro ! I can get alot out of it ! :thumbsup:
Only God/Jesus Christ saves us and How can we be saved without
Him ? even the Lord gives us the desire /will for Him
without that we do not do anything :mshock: :mblush:
ALL in due time :HeartThrob:
If "a God all mercy is a God unjust," would not a God all justice be a God unmerciful? No. God will always show His mercy until the day of judgment when sin must be judged for what it is: DEATH. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Mat22:32, Mark 12:27).
You got this one almost right. Kudos to you!
God is the God of everything. Of the living. Of the dead. Of every speckt of dust and of every star in the universe.
Just because He created it and therefore owns it.
So if he chooses not to be the God of the dead He needs to make the dead alive.
Is there any such thing in God as just cruelty, or merciful injustice? Yes. If you define "cruelty" as punishment for sin, then the answer is yes. God does not force Himself on people.
Generalizing to wriggle out won't work. AFAIK Gary speaks about the "endless ET torture justice" not the " limited UR correctional justice".
Are you more merciful than the God Who made you? Absolutely no. God's creation can never be greater than The Creator, therefore, God's mercy is the greatest. Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
I've seen judges giving 5 years of jail for murder. A cell with TV, food and bed. That almost sounds more merciful than an endless lava bath...
His rebuttal to the first question is nonsense showing that he did not even read it carefully.
I actually saw this a while ago as well. One of the things which I am a huge stickler for is that if you are going to criticize or argue against someone else, then you need to be able to accurately describe what the person you are trying to refute is saying. I think it is very telling that I have yet to come across a critic of UR who accurately portrays biblical UR. They all seem to rely on things like ignoring the role of corrective chastisement or pretending that URers just ignore certain bible verses, etc. Once a critic can accurately represent the biblical UR position, I would be interested in hearing what they have to say. Ya know?
Quote from: rebeccat on December 02, 2008, 07:54:42 AM
I actually saw this a while ago as well. One of the things which I am a huge stickler for is that if you are going to criticize or argue against someone else, then you need to be able to accurately describe what the person you are trying to refute is saying. I think it is very telling that I have yet to come across a critic of UR who accurately portrays biblical UR. They all seem to rely on things like ignoring the role of corrective chastisement or pretending that URers just ignore certain bible verses, etc. Once a critic can accurately represent the biblical UR position, I would be interested in hearing what they have to say. Ya know?
I agree, Rebecca. After hearing our pastor's sermons against "universalism". One of the people I'd been sharing it with told me that she thought the pastor had good things to say, but really missed the point.
The official term is "straw man argument", among other things. (A straw man argument is where you set up a false representation of the other person's argument, and attack that).
Of the people in my personal life I have yet to have anyone that has made some skeptical comment about universalism actually want to have a conversation with me about it.
They make their comment and when I point out that is not how I believe I hear no more from them.
In fact I got a comment one time when someone saw that I was a universalist if that was the teaching of a certain person. When I pointed out that what I believe is not necessarily what someone else believes or what someone has been led to believe universalism means, no more words from them.
I'm waiting for the day that someone actually asks "what is it you believe" lol. Of course even here we have various beliefs on what scripture says. So while humans seem to gravitate towards labels, they are one of the more frustrating parts of trying to share what we do believe.
Paul,
Many people just look for confirmation of what they already believe...
Many people just believe what they are told to believe.
They read verses but don't understand the story.
And when you show them a real verse from a real Bible that seems to contradict what they believe they simply hide...
When a unknown person like you says such a thing you are a hertic.
If 5 of the most well known hell and damnation teachers suddenly start preaching UR then everybody has always know it because it's so clear.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2008, 04:47:12 PM
Paul,
Many people just look for confirmation of what they already believe...
Many people just believe what they are told to believe.
They read verses but don't understand the story.
And when you show them a real verse from a real Bible that seems to contradict what they believe they simply hide...
When a unknown person like you says such a thing you are a hertic.
If 5 of the most well known hell and damnation teachers suddenly start preaching UR then everybody has always know it because it's so clear.
Actually my own struggle is realizing that I used to be the same way and just be understanding.
QuoteScriptural Refutation of "213 Brainless Questions Without Answers" by Gary Spamereault
I have had a look at that website, it's like so many other "christian" websites out there, totally lacking in common courtesy and decorum
Why are people that think and behave like that, starting to sound so much like clanging gongs in my ears
Quote1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Tis True , so many when they first hear God will save everyone in the end , consumation of the ages , All in All
the ET defense is "Than why do we go though all this than , If GOD is going to save everyone?''
For me it is plain , that they are trying to do good works and earn the right to Gods kingdom , that is the mentality
and anyone not doing the same things they do,they feel threatened by this .
To show them it is the gift of Gods grace and the dead works do not cut it , they become almost violent in nature , like a dog with a bone :mshock: not all run and hide
If they do go hide , that seed, will be planted in their hearts and in time a bud will spring up or wither and die matt 13 , it was that way for me
I was not so easily convinced at first , it sounded to good to be true , and the skeptic in me always believed if it sounds to good to be true , it is NOT TRUE :sigh:
Lots of soul searching and diggin in scriptures and some wonderful folks the Good Lord sent , messengers/angels proclaiming the good news ,
I have read and heard some odd teachings when it comes to religion
and what separates everyone from one another :sigh:
but the Bible states in Pauls testimony , it is by ONE GOD , ONE FAITH , ONE SPIRIT .. and that I can keep alive in hope :HeartThrob:
The sad thing is that most who are opposed to the message of (UR) seem to want people to burn in Hell forever. I would think that, if there was even the slightest posibility that it was true, they would at least want to explore it. We become so enslaved to tradition and the teachings of others that we build up a wall of spiritual armor that makes us unteachable. Even the voice of the Holy Spirit becomes obscured by the hard-line rules of dogmatic tradition. Jesus said it best when He pointed out that only those who can humble themselves like a little child will be able to enter into the fullness of His grace. He was talking about becoming teachable again.
Quote from: alihaymeg on December 05, 2008, 02:10:24 PM
Jesus said it best when He pointed out that only those who can humble themselves like a little child will be able to enter into the fullness of His grace. He was talking about becoming teachable again.
You said it there girl ! being taught by the Spirit and not traditions of men
maybe that is what true repentance is ? a change of mind /heart metanoia
greek 3341
1) a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents,
of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done even bearing fruit acceptable for repentance is in season , seed , planting ,growth , maturity and harvest
all done in the Lords will ,
Like Paul says babes in Christ being nurtured on the sincere milk of the word is the best start to good spiritual health .. :thumbsup:
and being taught by the Holy Spirit and not the spirits but we are to /test try them , they sure are good lawyers and readers of the Word scribes /etc. yet they do not keep all the Law either ? ..
Gal3 ;22
But the
scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came,
we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal 3:24 Wherefore the
law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But after
that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal 3:26
For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Preach it sister! :Sparkletooth:
I know I have a girlie sounding screen name, but I am actually a guy. I use my kid's names for my screen name (Allie, Hayden, Megan).
I guess I am an avid femanist, and it probably comes out in my writing as well. :gangel: Girl Power! :gangel:
No, I'm not gay!
Quote1. As we are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44) Only those saved by the blood of Jesus Christ can truly indeed love His enemies. Apart from Jesus Christ, we can do nothing. (John 15:5)
The answer avoids the question. Is God not capable doing anything without Jesus....?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good? God's love for every single created being does not save, for all have sinned (Romans 3:10, 3:23) and all have fallen short of the glory of God. God righteously punishes those that refused the free gift of salvation for they have no excuse (Romans 1:20). Because they can choose between good and evil(2Peter 2:10). Self-willed means self-willed against God's will(2Peter2:10). When a Christian sins, is this God's will or Man's will?
AFAIK UR doesn't claim God let sins go unpunished. They are corrective, effective and therefore ending.
Romans 5:10 "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
This verse has two very distinct parts. "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son". Apart from anything we have done, we have already been reconciled! This cannot be overlooked. While we were enemies... what? We were reconciled! The flesh may still be hostile to God, but we have been reconciled!
The second part of the verse says, "much more (glory!! :bgdance:), having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Again, notice, "having been reconciled" "It is finished!". Romans 6 takes us into death, burial and resurrection with Christ. This is what "saves" us from the wrath to come upon all flesh. If we do not received the free gift of grace, although reconciled, our flesh will have to go through the all consuming fires, "but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."
Right on Brother! :thumbsup:
Quote from: alihaymeg on December 06, 2008, 04:26:36 AM
Preach it sister! :Sparkletooth:
I know I have a girlie sounding screen name, but I am actually a guy. I use my kid's names for my screen name (Allie, Hayden, Megan).
I guess I am an avid femanist, and it probably comes out in my writing as well. :gangel: Girl Power! :gangel:
No, I'm not gay!
I once did the same Bud, "
Jalzt" James , Amy, Leigh, Zara and Tracey My long suffering wife :icon_flower:
Quote from: Texas Son on December 06, 2008, 05:56:03 AM
Romans 5:10 "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
This verse has two very distinct parts. "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son". Apart from anything we have done, we have already been reconciled! This cannot be overlooked. While we were enemies... what? We were reconciled! The flesh may still be hostile to God, but we have been reconciled!
ET: the we-group are the elect
QuoteThe second part of the verse says, "much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Again, notice, "having been reconciled" "It is finished!". Romans 6 takes us into death, burial and resurrection with Christ. This is what "saves" us from the wrath to coenemies... what? We were reconciled! The flesh may still be hostile to God, but we have been reconciled!
ET: the we-group are the elect
ET: the coenemies will suffer in hell forever.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 06, 2008, 10:08:32 AM
Quote from: Texas Son on December 06, 2008, 05:56:03 AM
Romans 5:10 "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
This verse has two very distinct parts. "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son". Apart from anything we have done, we have already been reconciled! This cannot be overlooked. While we were enemies... what? We were reconciled! The flesh may still be hostile to God, but we have been reconciled!
ET: the we-group are the elect
QuoteThe second part of the verse says, "much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Again, notice, "having been reconciled" "It is finished!". Romans 6 takes us into death, burial and resurrection with Christ. This is what "saves" us from the wrath to coenemies... what? We were reconciled! The flesh may still be hostile to God, but we have been reconciled!
ET: the we-group are the elect
ET: the coenemies will suffer in hell forever.
And they call us heretics? :mshock:
Yah, Jesus and the apostles and all of the believers in the first 500 years after Christ must have had it wrong when they taught universal restoration. It's a good thing we had the dark ages to straiten out that mess. :sigh:
Oh, I can't stop laughing, especially at the name "Spamereault" :) :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Quote from: alihaymeg on December 06, 2008, 04:26:36 AM
Preach it sister! :Sparkletooth:
I know I have a girlie sounding screen name, but I am actually a guy. I use my kid's names for my screen name (Allie, Hayden, Megan).
I guess I am an avid femanist, and it probably comes out in my writing as well. :gangel: Girl Power! :gangel:
No, I'm not gay!
my apologies bro , you sound like an angel of the Lord , they are neither male nor female
but angels :cloud9:Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage,
but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31 But
as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I do not know about everyone else here , but i feel as though i have been brought back from the dead :icon_flower:
thanking God and His Spirit of Truth
Amen to that!
I actually feel equally connected to everyone. Being androgynous is the best. It lets you be strong and assertive but also gentle and feeling. Just like God is. That's why we complament one another(men and women); because the combination makes a complete person.
Heb13:2 [ Greek Font Size: – / + | Toggle Font ] [ View in: BYZ / TR | Side-by-side | Greek Lexical Parser ]
Be not forgetful (5737) to entertain strangers: for thereby * * some have entertained (5660) angels unawares (5627) .
Angels= Aggelos (transliterated)
a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
Quote from: alihaymeg on December 13, 2008, 11:30:40 PM
Amen to that!
I actually feel equally connected to everyone. Being androgynous is the best. It lets you be strong and assertive but also gentle and feeling. Just like God is. That's why we complament one another(men and women); because the combination makes a complete person.
Heb13:2 [ Greek Font Size: – / + | Toggle Font ] [ View in: BYZ / TR | Side-by-side | Greek Lexical Parser ]
Be not forgetful (5737) to entertain strangers: for thereby * * some have entertained (5660) angels unawares (5627) .
Angels= Aggelos (transliterated)
a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
I think it is awesome , we are to know no one after the flesh !
that means Spirit right :icon_flower: and there is ONE SPIRIT we are ALL to be gathered into the Lords Body
Jesus Christ But I think its cool you used all 3 of your childrens names to get your moniker :winkgrin:
I love my babies! :HeartThrob:
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm :)
:thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on December 05, 2008, 01:28:05 PM
Tis True , so many when they first hear God will save everyone in the end , consumation of the ages , All in All
the ET defense is "Than why do we go though all this than , If GOD is going to save everyone?"
The same can be said at people that believe in "the elect".
What's the use if it's already clear who gets saved?
The same question can be asked to all denominations. Whatever teh percentage of people that reach heaven, God already knew before He started creation. So the "what's the use" question not only applies to UR but also to all other beliefs
Quote from: B_T on December 13, 2008, 02:40:39 PM
Oh, I can't stop laughing, especially at the name "Spamereault" :) :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
LOL same!
It makes me sad that the person attacking Gary is not even answering the questions he is asking. Spamereault is going to have to do better than that!
Quote from: lomarah on January 31, 2010, 06:44:41 AMSpamereault is going to have to do better than that!
Gary=Spamerault :winkgrin:
Gary is Spamereault???
Gary is Gary Amirault. Spamerault is just part of the ad hominem attack.
On his website, and perhaps at other places, Gary posted
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html
It are not Gary's questions:
QuoteThe questions were written by A. C. Thomas and appeared in a book by E. H. Lake, entitled "The Key to Truth".
But obviously Gary agrees with the 213 questions and put them on his website to be studied by others
One of those others was "Don C. Hewey". He has written a rebutal to the above mentioned article on his website. http://www.1john57.com/213refutations.htm
As you can see the title of his debunking article is 'slightly different'
Finally that refutation is refuted again: http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
So basicly Gary didn't write one letter of the article. I never claimed so BTW because he clearly stated the list is part of a book.
So the sequence is:
Article/claims -> refutation -> proving the refutation wrong
It's a clear victory for UR because person running the www.1john57.com site never answered the "his"refutation"being refuted. He is aware of the TentMaker site because he even links to the article. By the tone of the article it's also clear he would love to ridecule those who refuted his refutation. So if he had an answer it sure would be on his site . At least that my bet....
Grasping the whole 'story line' takes some switching between articles and easily overlooked. I hope it's a bit more clear now Lomarah.
:thumbsup:
The above mentioned book and list is (partly) based on a book called: Universalist companion.
It's a very old book and out of copyright. So it can be downloaded for free from Google books.
http://books.google.nl/books?id=VQARAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA4-PA41&dq=%22The+Key+to+Truth%22+%22E.+H.+Lake%22&as_brr=0&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22The%20Key%20to%20Truth%22%20%22E.%20H.%20Lake%22&f=false (http://books.google.nl/books?id=VQARAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA4-PA41&dq=%22The+Key+to+Truth%22+%22E.+H.+Lake%22&as_brr=0&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22The%20Key%20to%20Truth%22%20%22E.%20H.%20Lake%22&f=false)
I really recommend downloading because reading online is to slow to be funny and not without displaying issue's
Click the little PDF button on the top right to download the book.
The book is scanned (=each page is a photo) so the Find/Search function in you Adobe Acrbat (Reader) won't work. I'm converting those pictures to searchable text right now.
(I found the book when writing the message above) If you want the bin searchable format just ask.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2010, 05:10:49 PM
Gary is Gary Amirault. Spamerault is just part of the ad hominem attack.
On his website, and perhaps at other places, Gary posted
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html
It are not Gary's questions:QuoteThe questions were written by A. C. Thomas and appeared in a book by E. H. Lake, entitled "The Key to Truth".
But obviously Gary agrees with the 213 questions and put them on his website to be studied by others
One of those others was "Don C. Hewey". He has written a rebutal to the above mentioned article on his website. http://www.1john57.com/213refutations.htm
As you can see the title of his debunking article is 'slightly different'
Finally that refutation is refuted again: http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
So basicly Gary didn't write one letter of the article. I never claimed so BTW because he clearly stated the list is part of a book.
So the sequence is:
Article/claims -> refutation -> proving the refutation wrong
It's a clear victory for UR because person running the www.1john57.com site never answered the "his"refutation"being refuted. He is aware of the TentMaker site because he even links to the article. By the tone of the article it's also clear he would love to ridecule those who refuted his refutation. So if he had an answer it sure would be on his site . At least that my bet....
Grasping the whole 'story line' takes some switching between articles and easily overlooked. I hope it's a bit more clear now Lomarah.
:thumbsup:
Ooookay now I understand LOL thanks for that. I hadn't read any of the article, just caught the word Spamereault and thought it was humorous that someone would stoop to that level.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2008, 09:23:32 PM
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Mat22:32, Mark 12:27). [/color]
[response]
God is the God of everything. Of the living. Of the dead.
So if he chooses not to be the God of the dead He needs to make the dead alive.
Questions for WW:
1) How can you say God is the God of the dead, contrary to express statements of scripture?Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." [Also Mk 12:27; Lk 20:38]
2) If there is no representation for the dead before God, what is the purpose of Jesus being Lord of the dead? Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living."
Had you considered this? It is one of many proofs Jesus is not God, because he is Lord of the dead, but God is not.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 14, 2010, 02:31:57 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2008, 09:23:32 PM
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Mat22:32, Mark 12:27). [/color]
[response]
God is the God of everything. Of the living. Of the dead.
So if he chooses not to be the God of the dead He needs to make the dead alive.
Questions for WW:
1) How can you say God is the God of the dead, contrary to express statements of scripture?Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." [Also Mk 12:27; Lk 20:38]
Let me start with saying I'm not denying those verses.
Like always it's about how they are understood. I understand it this way...
God is the owner of everything in the universe. Including dead people. But because He'll turn all death into life He's not God of the dead. I hope you at least understand what I'm trying to say because I can't explain any better.
The verses you mentioned are spoken to the Sadducees who rejected resurrection from the dead.
Mark 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees,
which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
The Sadducees believed in a god that let the stay dead forever. Jesus answered that His God does resurrect dead people. People are alive before death. And they are alive after resurrection. Both times God is their God.
But isn't He the period in between? I think yes.
KJVPsa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell(=grave=dead), behold, thou art there.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 14, 2010, 03:05:35 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 14, 2010, 02:31:57 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2008, 09:23:32 PM
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Mat22:32, Mark 12:27). [/color]
[response]
God is the God of everything. Of the living. Of the dead.
So if he chooses not to be the God of the dead He needs to make the dead alive.
Questions for WW:
1) How can you say God is the God of the dead, contrary to express statements of scripture?Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." [Also Mk 12:27; Lk 20:38]
Let me start with saying I'm not denying those verses.
Like always it's about how they are understood. I understand it this way...
God is the owner of everything in the universe. Including dead people. But because He'll turn all death into life He's not God of the dead. I hope you at least understand what I'm trying to say because I can't explain any better.
The verses you mentioned are spoken to the Sadducees who rejected resurrection from the dead.
Mark 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
The Sadducees believed in a god that let the stay dead forever. Jesus answered that His God does resurrect dead people. People are alive before death. And they are alive after resurrection. Both times God is their God.
But isn't He the period in between? I think yes.
KJVPsa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell(=grave=dead), behold, thou art there.
o.k. That's an answer at least. I think it evades the reality, but maybe not. If God is not the God of the dead, (and I think you have it right about living and resurrected to life), but Jesus is Lord of the dead, it requires a little more consideration. Up to you though if you think not.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 14, 2010, 04:02:32 PM
o.k. That's an answer at least. I think it evades the reality, but maybe not. If God is not the God of the dead, (and I think you have it right about living and resurrected to life), but Jesus is Lord of the dead, it requires a little more consideration. Up to you though if you think not.
KJVRom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Ok, Jesus is Lord of both living and dead. Does that mean Father is not Lord of the living and/or dead?
Rom 14:9 speaks about Jesus. That doesn't exclude or include Father.
I think although Jesus is also Lord of the death it's not His goal/wish. His goal is to transform the kindom of death into life. Taking away the string of death. Son is doing all things according to authority and planning of Father.
I think the verses are not denying there is death, God not being God of those dead people, etc. The verses deny a never ending state of being dead like the Saduccians believed.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 14, 2010, 04:27:11 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 14, 2010, 04:02:32 PM
o.k. That's an answer at least. I think it evades the reality, but maybe not. If God is not the God of the dead, (and I think you have it right about living and resurrected to life), but Jesus is Lord of the dead, it requires a little more consideration. Up to you though if you think not.
KJVRom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Ok, Jesus is Lord of both living and dead. Does that mean Father is not Lord of the living and/or dead?
Rom 14:9 speaks about Jesus. That doesn't exclude or include Father.
I think although Jesus is also Lord of the death it's not His goal/wish. His goal is to transform the kindom of death into life. Taking away the string of death. Son is doing all things according to authority and planning of Father.
I think the verses are not denying there is death, God not being God of those dead people, etc. The verses deny a never ending state of being dead like the Saduccians believed.
:2c:
I think the statement that Jesus died SO THAT he could be Lord of the dead pretty well establishes why God is not God of the dead. God has never experienced death for himself. He cannot die. Remember, being LORD of the dead is WHY Jesus died. ("To this end) I think we all agree Jesus' death was not THE end, so it was a specific end God had in mind. He spoke not of an ending so much as a goal, or end of a pursuit. "For this reason" says it about the same. It qualified Jesus to be appointed or anointed Lord of the dead.
i hope this will fit into the discussion, but i found this excerpt from an email response from L.Raysmith at bt and thought it may be helpful for further understanding, it was a question about God of the living:
The love their religion and its pagan doctrines, but they despise the Word of God. So that when you show them the Word of God they will deny that it is speaking an eternal truth. Christians worship the god of "context, context, context," but when you show them how something is used in "context," they then deny the whole "context" scenario. These Scriptures are so easily understood with a little of God's Spirit, that one wonders how any Christian theologian would have the gall to argue against what our Lord has said, but they do. Okay let's look at these verses IN CONTEXT:
Matt. 22:32--"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING.
Mark 12:27--"...He is not the God of the dead, but the God of he living: ye therefore do greatly err."
Luke 20:38--"For He is not a God of the dead, but of the LIVING: for all live unto Him."
Now then, what have we read? God is not the God of the dead. Why not? Because there is zero response to God from dead people. "...for the living know that they shall die, but the DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING" (Ecc. 9;5).
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
But will an orthodox Christian believe this verse? OF COURSE NOT. What happens to a person's thoughts when he dies?
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Will an orthodox Christian believe and accept this verse, that dead people are dead and have no knowledge or thoughts of any kind? OF COURSE NOT.
Now then, did Jesus say that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are NOT dead? Did he actually say that? No, He did not. But He did say that "God is the God of the LIVING," didn't He? So how can God be the God of Abraham when God is God of the living, but Abraham is DEAD? Just read the verse before and it is clear as the noon day sun:
"But as TOUCHING THE R-E-S-U-R-R-E-C-T-I-O-N OF THE D-E-A-D ...God is the God of the LIVING" (Matt. 22:31)!
"And as TOUCHING THE DEAD, THAT THEY RISE: have ye not read....God [is] the God of the LIVING..." (Mark 12:26).
"...being the children of the RESURRECTION. Now that the DEAD ARE RAISED [RESURRECTION], even Moses showed...God [is] the God of the LIVING" (Luke 20:36-38).
So just exactly, precisely, doctrinally, Scripturally, truthfully, is "God the God of the Living" to people who are still DEAD? THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, by BRINGING BACK THE DEAD, by RAISING UP THE DEAD, so that they may again have "thoughts" of praise and "know" Who the True God is.
Quote from: lookingup on March 14, 2010, 06:22:09 PM
i hope this will fit into the discussion, but i found this excerpt from an email response from L.Raysmith at bt and thought it may be helpful for further understanding, it was a question about God of the living:
The love their religion and its pagan doctrines, but they despise the Word of God. So that when you show them the Word of God they will deny that it is speaking an eternal truth. Christians worship the god of "context, context, context," but when you show them how something is used in "context," they then deny the whole "context" scenario. These Scriptures are so easily understood with a little of God's Spirit, that one wonders how any Christian theologian would have the gall to argue against what our Lord has said, but they do. Okay let's look at these verses IN CONTEXT:
Matt. 22:32--"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING.
Mark 12:27--"...He is not the God of the dead, but the God of he living: ye therefore do greatly err."
Luke 20:38--"For He is not a God of the dead, but of the LIVING: for all live unto Him."
Now then, what have we read? God is not the God of the dead. Why not? Because there is zero response to God from dead people. "...for the living know that they shall die, but the DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING" (Ecc. 9;5).
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
But will an orthodox Christian believe this verse? OF COURSE NOT. What happens to a person's thoughts when he dies?
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Will an orthodox Christian believe and accept this verse, that dead people are dead and have no knowledge or thoughts of any kind? OF COURSE NOT.
Now then, did Jesus say that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are NOT dead? Did he actually say that? No, He did not. But He did say that "God is the God of the LIVING," didn't He? So how can God be the God of Abraham when God is God of the living, but Abraham is DEAD? Just read the verse before and it is clear as the noon day sun:
"But as TOUCHING THE R-E-S-U-R-R-E-C-T-I-O-N OF THE D-E-A-D ...God is the God of the LIVING" (Matt. 22:31)!
"And as TOUCHING THE DEAD, THAT THEY RISE: have ye not read....God [is] the God of the LIVING..." (Mark 12:26).
"...being the children of the RESURRECTION. Now that the DEAD ARE RAISED [RESURRECTION], even Moses showed...God [is] the God of the LIVING" (Luke 20:36-38).
So just exactly, precisely, doctrinally, Scripturally, truthfully, is "God the God of the Living" to people who are still DEAD? THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, by BRINGING BACK THE DEAD, by RAISING UP THE DEAD, so that they may again have "thoughts" of praise and "know" Who the True God is.
That's all very well said, but it does not touch on the difference between "God is NOT the "God of the dead" and "Jesus IS Lord of the dead." THAT is the question for consideration.
But I do appreciate your thoughts, as they introduce another dimension to the discussion.
A point of view to consider
God is God of all....for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
Jesus is Lord of all....For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
(Eph 1:9-10)
For HE(God) HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS(Jesus) FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He(God) is excepted who(God) put all things in subjection to Him(Jesus). When all things are subjected to Him(Jesus), then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One(God) who subjected all things to Him(Jesus), so that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:27-28)
This is a summary of the whole plan of God.
For from Him.....
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
(Col 1:15-17)
And through Him
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, (Col 1:18-20)
And to Him are all things
and through Him(Jesus) to reconcile all things to Himself(God), having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
After all the enemies are abolished there will be no need for "rule, power and authority" for all will be one in the love of God flowing in the glorious liberty of the sons of God, all having settled into their appointed place in the infinite glories of God, in perfect harmony and celebration.
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
(1Co 15:22-26)
When Jesus says God is not the God of the dead but of the living, He is speaking to the deadness of the Pharisees and their separation from God, related to their hostility to God as murderers and scoffers. He is not putting any limitation on the Creator. When Jesus speaks, "Your God and My God", He is speaking to the living, alive in Christ, who know the "I AM". Nevertheless as David writes, "If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art with me". When writers represent things from the point of view of man's consciousness(the dead know nothing) they are not limiting the all encompassing omniscience and omnipotence of the Creator. He is not the God of the dead to the extent that they cannot perceive Him as such and are blind behind the veil of death, carnality and self-righteousness. Yet, he is the Creator of all, and as Paul proclaimed to the assembled philosophers of the nations at Mars Hill(Acts 17:27,28 "...though He is not far from each one of us ... for in Him we live and breath and have our being....for we are all His children". His inclusive language to them was a declaration of grace.