Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED

[Beloved Servant]

Could they be false gods, inferior creations, idols, images and/or imaginations?

[Molly]

Could they be false gods, inferior creations, idols, images and/or imaginations?

I suppose so.  Certainly men worshipped them as if they were real.  Heiser says that God got so fed up with men listening to them and worshipping them, that finally, at the time of the tower of Babel, he scattered men and placed the fallen angels over all the nations except Israel, which God kept for himself.  But, Israel too went whoring after other gods, as we know, except for the remnant.

Heiser says that we are to replace these sons of God, when we co-inherit the nations with Jesus, as rulers over the nations.  That makes sense to explain why they are battling spiritually against us.  But, for now, they are assigned nations and rule over them.  It also explains how Satan could offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world.  They are currently his to offer. This is what Paul means when he says we will judge angels--it is these 'sons of God' that we will judge.

The book of Enoch [which is supposedly older than the book of Daniel] says that these angels are the ones that taught men knowledge, science,  architecture, metal work [for war and jewelry], astronomical cycles, sorcery, witchcraft, astrology, all those things we are not supposed to do.

Heiser says Psalm 82 describes Yahweh meeting with them in the divine council and rebuking them for their treatment of men, and threatening them with a bad ending.



Psalm 82
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Interesting thoughts, Molly....I thought of Daniel's angel saying how the prince of Persia withstood him for 21 days......

[Molly]

:cloud9: Interesting thoughts, Molly....I thought of Daniel's angel saying how the prince of Persia withstood him for 21 days......

Yes, exactly.  The heavenly messenger to Daniel was delayed while fighting with the 'prince' of Persia.  That is one of the 'gods' placed over Persia according to Heiser.  This is probably the same word as 'archon' in the Greek in Ephesians 6 I'm thinking.

"prince" [of Persia]

H8269
שׂר
śar
sar
From H8323; a head person (of any rank or class): - captain (that had rule), chief(captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ([-task-]) master, prince (-ipal), ruler, steward.


12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against

arche, exousia, ho kosmokrator ho skotos toutou aion, pneumatikos poneria en epouranios [Eph 6]

"principalities"

G746
αρχή
archē
ar-khay'
From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.




5Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:

6His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

7And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.

8Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.

9Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.

10And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.

11And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

14Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

--Daniel 10

[WhiteWings]

I thought the Nephilim was the term used for the sons of god. For the giants were the offspring of Nephilim called Annukin, that built huge cities and towers that went up to heaven. These annukins also had offspring and the giants surived Noahs flood,

And many othere because the flood was local.

for king David's army must battle with these giants and many of his army fought valiantly against these mighty giants one of whom had 6 toes

Even today there are people with 6 toes per foot.

[thinktank]

I thought the Nephilim was the term used for the sons of god. For the giants were the offspring of Nephilim called Annukin, that built huge cities and towers that went up to heaven. These annukins also had offspring and the giants surived Noahs flood,

And many othere because the flood was local.


How can it be a local flood? The rains poured down and the sea opened up like a geyser, I would have thought these giants survived because they were so tall, tall enough to not drown, especially if they were on high ground.

for king David's army must battle with these giants and many of his army fought valiantly against these mighty giants one of whom had 6 toes

Even today there are people with 6 toes per foot.

5 toes are enough, their a pain, I wish God created something a bit stronger.

[Lefein]

Where in the Bible is everyone getting all of this lore (for lack of a better word) on the Nephilim?

[thinktank]

Where in the Bible is everyone getting all of this lore (for lack of a better word) on the Nephilim?

Because of the giants, why would a son of god, that some say are men, produce might men of renown so big that compared to normal men we are as grasshoppers in their sight?

How many christians do you know that sleep with a pagan woman and give birth to big foot?

[WhiteWings]

I thought the Nephilim was the term used for the sons of god. For the giants were the offspring of Nephilim called Annukin, that built huge cities and towers that went up to heaven. These annukins also had offspring and the giants surived Noahs flood,

And many othere because the flood was local.


How can it be a local flood? The rains poured down and the sea opened up like a geyser, I would have thought these giants survived because they were so tall, tall enough to not drown, especially if they were on high ground..

Sea? Covering the whole earth takes 3.5x more wather than is on the planet.

[thinktank]

I thought the Nephilim was the term used for the sons of god. For the giants were the offspring of Nephilim called Annukin, that built huge cities and towers that went up to heaven. These annukins also had offspring and the giants surived Noahs flood,

And many othere because the flood was local.


How can it be a local flood? The rains poured down and the sea opened up like a geyser, I would have thought these giants survived because they were so tall, tall enough to not drown, especially if they were on high ground..

Sea? Covering the whole earth takes 3.5x more wather than is on the planet.

You got the polar ice caps, that's a ton of water right there and also various temperature changes can change the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere.

Remember the dove that Noah sent out could not find dry land? How far do doves fly out? or was it a pigeon.

[Quaesitor]

Doesn't take a fallen angel to breed 9 feet humans, Goliath was feared even among his nation, he came from a big strong men family...so what?
This smells like more imagination from flesh-oriented minds.

You know what, maybe the current tallest man (8+ feet) is a nephilim?

Oh and I guess Zdeno Chara(hockey) has a nephilim grand grand father, he sure is ugly like a fallen angel.

How can it be a local flood? The rains poured down and the sea opened up like a geyser, I would have thought these giants survived because they were so tall, tall enough to not drown, especially if they were on high ground..

Just wow!
So God decided to destroy life on earth by the flood and kept Noah, his family and animals of each species live through the ark but...Ah these clever giants survived the flood by mounting on a montain and standing on their 6 toes!

[thinktank]

Doesn't take a fallen angel to breed 9 feet humans, Goliath was feared even among his nation, he came from a big strong men family...so what?
This smells like more imagination from flesh-oriented minds.

You know what, maybe the current tallest man (8+ feet) is a nephilim?

Oh and I guess Zdeno Chara(hockey) has a nephilim grand grand father, he sure is ugly like a fallen angel.

How can it be a local flood? The rains poured down and the sea opened up like a geyser, I would have thought these giants survived because they were so tall, tall enough to not drown, especially if they were on high ground..

Just wow!
So God decided to destroy life on earth by the flood and kept Noah, his family and animals of each species live through the ark but...Ah these clever giants survived the flood by mounting on a montain and standing on their 6 toes!

I have heard stranger stories Q, most of which are in the bible  :laughing7:


You'd be suprised the lengths and breadth's people do too survive.

Numbers
The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men [3] of a great stature. 33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Deutronomy
20 (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims; [6] 21 A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the Lord destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead:

We know there are giants in the bible, it's a matter of connecting the dots, is the source because of the sons of god which mated with women.

Now we also know that angels are kept in chains of darkness, for they left their habitation. So it is a possobility that these angels were the sons of god who left heaven and took wifes in rebellion to the father and so God punished them with a prison sentence.

[Quaesitor]

Doesn't take a fallen angel to breed 9 feet humans, Goliath was feared even among his nation, he came from a big strong men family...so what?
This smells like more imagination from flesh-oriented minds.

You know what, maybe the current tallest man (8+ feet) is a nephilim?

Oh and I guess Zdeno Chara(hockey) has a nephilim grand grand father, he sure is ugly like a fallen angel.

How can it be a local flood? The rains poured down and the sea opened up like a geyser, I would have thought these giants survived because they were so tall, tall enough to not drown, especially if they were on high ground..

Just wow!
So God decided to destroy life on earth by the flood and kept Noah, his family and animals of each species live through the ark but...Ah these clever giants survived the flood by mounting on a montain and standing on their 6 toes!

I have heard stranger stories Q, most of which are in the bible  :laughing7:


You'd be suprised the lengths and breadth's people do too survive.

Numbers
The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men [3] of a great stature. 33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Deutronomy
20 (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims; [6] 21 A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the Lord destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead:

We know there are giants in the bible, it's a matter of connecting the dots, is the source because of the sons of god which mated with women.

Now we also know that angels are kept in chains of darkness, for they left their habitation. So it is a possobility that these angels were the sons of god who left heaven and took wifes in rebellion to the father and so God punished them with a prison sentence.

But these stories ARE in the Bible the connecting of dots isn't.
These sons of God could be aliens from another world who also appear to have built the pyramids and destroyed the Mayans...oh yeah that's Stargate.

Jesus make it quite clear that angels can't mate.

Numbers
The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men [3] of a great stature. 33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

So these men were thousands of feet tall, since they were like grasshoppers in their sight.

[Cardinal]

How many christians do you know that sleep with a pagan woman and give birth to big foot?

:cloud9: So THAT'S where Bigfoot came from.... :rolllol:

Seriously, and this is a serious note, demons can rape women. No kidding. I know some who have experienced it. How they went about producing children from it (in the past) I don't know.  Blessings....

[jabcat]

TOPIC SPLIT FROM "I'M FINALLY CONVINCED..."

I believe there is no other doctrine that has done more harm to the Christian faith.

Certainly for the people that are Christians.
But if I have to decide science did more harm to Christianity. Or more correctly the reponse of church to science. Earth is flat. All planets circle around earth. Planets move in perfect circles because God won't creating imperfect ellipces etc.
It's often said education drives out religion. I think that's true. But why? I think mainly because of church doctrine. More many people Bible=Church.
But in reality Bible != Church
And that sick ET stuff is part of it

As I wrote before:
UR= Mercy/grace
ED= Justice
ET= Sick/vengence

:2c:

I'm not sure why the study of how God's physical laws work would do harm to Christianity.  The study of science has brought me new found awe of God.  With that said, I do see what you are saying at work.  I suppose it's kinda like when people watch illusionists.  When the illusion happens...people are in awe...can't believe it.  When they learn how it's done...its like oh.  Understanding how God makes the universe roll seems to take some of that shock and awe away from many individuals.  And the hostility that many scientists have towards God has led to science becoming a religion all in its own.

I am scientifically trained...I like empirical evidence.  But, I am also a man of faith...I need no evidence.  Blending the two has been a challenge.  But, I have found peace in studying what we know and having faith in that which can not ever be measured or studied.

bump - topic unlocked and "cleaned up" - we'll see how it goes.

[WhiteWings]

How many christians do you know that sleep with a pagan woman and give birth to big foot?

:cloud9: So THAT'S where Bigfoot came from.... :rolllol:

Seriously, and this is a serious note, demons can rape women. No kidding. I know some who have experienced it. How they went about producing children from it (in the past) I don't know.  Blessings....

Then demons must be very similar to (wo)men because the woman won't even get pregnant if the genetic makeup differs. But as always there are exceptions....
(http://www.brooklynartscouncil.org/files/images/5_CatBird.jpg)

[Molly]

Covering the whole earth takes 3.5x more wather than is on the planet.

That's because the earth is expanding.  If my computer worked, I could show you. :happygrin:

Regarding the conversation about about the 'fallen angels' or rebellious 'gods' of the divine council--I realized that they are called princes by Daniel and the New Testament calls Satan the prince of this world--but, look here, who are these:

1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


Was Jesus killed by the princes of this world?  If you think that, name them. I don't think anyone would call the high priest or Pilate princes.  Otherwise, this is saying that the death of Jesus was controlled or presided over by these same supernatural beings--which makes a lot of sense to me--because who did Jesus say the Pharisees were working for?

[eaglesway]

As to the rest, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might; put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil, because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities(arche), with the authorities(exousia), with the world-rulers(kosmokrator) of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; because of this take ye up the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to resist in the day of the evil, and all things having done--to stand.
(Eph 6:10-13)


For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
(2Co 10:3-5)

[thinktank]

Covering the whole earth takes 3.5x more wather than is on the planet.

That's because the earth is expanding.  If my computer worked, I could show you. :happygrin:

Regarding the conversation about about the 'fallen angels' or rebellious 'gods' of the divine council--I realized that they are called princes by Daniel and the New Testament calls Satan the prince of this world--but, look here, who are these:

1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


Was Jesus killed by the princes of this world?  If you think that, name them. I don't think anyone would call the high priest or Pilate princes.  Otherwise, this is saying that the death of Jesus was controlled or presided over by these same supernatural beings--which makes a lot of sense to me--because who did Jesus say the Pharisees were working for?

Exactly, there is a higher power than man. Just like in the movies when the good guy beats up the bad guy but finds out that he actually woks for somone higher in the chain of command, then the good guy finds the bad guy and that bad guy also has his own boss, he the boss, worships his own god, whatever that may be , drugs, money, guns, sorcery, whatever he/she thinks makes them powerful. :2c:

[Molly]

Covering the whole earth takes 3.5x more wather than is on the planet.

That's because the earth is expanding.  If my computer worked, I could show you. :happygrin:

Regarding the conversation about about the 'fallen angels' or rebellious 'gods' of the divine council--I realized that they are called princes by Daniel and the New Testament calls Satan the prince of this world--but, look here, who are these:

1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


Was Jesus killed by the princes of this world?  If you think that, name them. I don't think anyone would call the high priest or Pilate princes.  Otherwise, this is saying that the death of Jesus was controlled or presided over by these same supernatural beings--which makes a lot of sense to me--because who did Jesus say the Pharisees were working for?

Exactly, there is a higher power than man. Just like in the movies when the good guy beats up the bad guy but finds out that he actually woks for somone higher in the chain of command, then the good guy finds the bad guy and that bad guy also has his own boss, he the boss, worships his own god, whatever that may be , drugs, money, guns, sorcery, whatever he/she thinks makes them powerful. :2c:

God says to Abraham, I will make of you a great nation.  Well, what nation might that be?  Israel would say it's them, American Christians might say, it's them.

But God himself tells us who that nation is going to be--it will be a nation of priests and kings, the group which he keeps totally for himself, his inheritance.


Exodus 15:17
Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O LORD, which thy hands have established.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Paul said it was not the idol, but the SPIRIT behind the idol. I knew a man who was shown black clouds over the cities of the US once, by the Lord. He asked the Lord what they were, and the Lord told him they were the spiritual rulers over those cities.

I believe there are princes or rulers of darkness that are involved in the affairs of men, to the extent the Lord, and His prayer warriors, or lack of prayer warriors, allow them to be.

If He opened your spiritual eyes right now, you would be astonished at how many of them are everywhere. The baby crying in church, being pinched by a demon; hidden in the books on your shelf you didn't know had bad topics in them. All they look for are vessels they can rule thru or in, and most of the time, they find them. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

Is this video funny or heart wrenching?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4K9-cQSDa8

[Cardinal]

 :sigh: Heart wrenching and IMO a form of child abuse..... :thumbdown:

[Beloved Servant]

Amen, Card.
The point being, is that people just don't realize where these princes rule and how sly they are.

[eaglesway]

This kind will not come out except by fasting and prayer.