A lot of Hell believers seem to refer to Gehenna as a way for Jesus to describe the abode of the unsaved. My guess is when they think of Hell, they think of a large pit full of fire like Gehenna was. I fourn a greek bible at Scripture4all.com The problem is as far as I know the Greek bible could be talking about a literal hell, but just calling Gehenna. Is their proof in the bible that Gehenna cannot be referred to a literal hell anywhere.
For starters the bodies burned in Gehenna were dead people. They weren't burned alive.
The worm that dieth not is Jesus....
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/gehenna-not-trash-dump/msg120165/#msg120165
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/no-hell-warning-from-god-for-thousands-of-years/msg91680/#msg91680
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/no-hell-warning-from-god-for-thousands-of-years/msg91695/#msg91695
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/ShepherdsVoice/index.html?page=the_undying_worm.htm
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/ShepherdsVoice/bible%20threatenings%20explained.htm
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/ShepherdsVoice/judgments_of_the_divine_law.htm
:thumbsup: I recommend you do google searches of the gates of Jerusalem.....the valley
gate and the dung gate is where the people of the city threw away and burned the trash
in valley of hinnon[ge-hennon.
they are cleansing gates for the city. the dung gate also called eye of the needle..can represent
things we need to cleanse out of our lives to be spiritually acceptable......thus...the rich man
not willing to give up his love of material things[mamon...easier for a camel t pass through
the eye of a needle[dung gate was a narrow gate...and a stiff ole camel carcass took some
manuevering to get out that gate/those who strain the gnat/swallow the camel..comes to mind
it is said by the Jews that the Messiah will return by this gate[due to the jews reckoning him
of no value...and in essence refusing Him in Jerusalem.
for instance..say you have an 'eye' for something material...determined to get rich.....
and it cause you to stumble in Christ...it is better for you to 'pluck out' and throw away=
see such things as little value/mere dung...then to loose your spiritual life in Christ[such
as have a name you are alive..but are not[Rev 3;1]
remember they vaalley/dung gates are associated with cleansing of the city...and
throwing away what we need to[the worthless things of flesh of no-value]in order to
be acceptable/sanctified spiritually. it is through these gates that the corrupt/dead things
are disposed of.
Rev 22;14 Blessed are those who wash their robes,that they may have the right to the tree of life
and may go through the gates into the city. OUTSIDE are the dogs,those who practice majic
arts..the sexually immoral the murderers the idolators and everyone who loves and practices
lies.
Now..through faith in Christ...the little dogs do eat from underthe table of the crumbs of the
little children...and better a live dog then a dead lion...through faith a very immoral woman
was forgiven much because she loves much...through faith Saul's are turned to Paul's..
through faith in Christ majic books costing a lot are burned outside the city....through faith
in Christ idols are thrown away..
The spirit and the bride say come!. And let him who hears say Come! Whoever is thirsty
let him come..and whoever wishes let him take the free gift of the water of life
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on January 20, 2014, 06:11:50 PM
A lot of Hell believers seem to refer to Gehenna as a way for Jesus to describe the abode of the unsaved. My guess is when they think of Hell, they think of a large pit full of fire like Gehenna was. I fourn a greek bible at Scripture4all.com The problem is as far as I know the Greek bible could be talking about a literal hell, but just calling Gehenna. Is their proof in the bible that Gehenna cannot be referred to a literal hell anywhere.
HI US,
Your question is:
Can we prove Jesus was not using Gehenna to describe what Hell looks like. I would say "yes" and I can prove it in just a few sentences. Gehenna was a literal place outside Jerusalem, a steep, low valley. So, without question, Jesus was NOT speaking LITERALLY about hell. Hell believers as much admit this when they find out about it, which is why they try to claim that Jesus was using Gehenna as a
metaphor for hell.
The question becomes, what was Jesus really talking about? If someone says
"the abode of the dead called Hell." I would say
"Ok, where's your scriptural proof?" I would be right to ask that because THEY are making the claim. So prove it. There wouldn't be any, because much of what Christians believe about Hell comes from the Gehenna mistranslation in the first place! There is ONE scripture outside the four Gospels which provides an interpretation of Gehenna, only one and it is the book of James. Here is what James says:
James 3:5-6
See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! And
the tongue is a fire,
the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is
set on fire of The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna).
Here we have a plainspoken spiritual interpretation of Gehenna fire: the motions of sin. When our fiery tongue sets the course of our life direction into more sin, our whole body is set on fire of Gehenna. It's a metaphor, certainly, but not one about Hell. Gehenna is a metaphor for the condition of sinful behavior that Christ was sent to free mankind from:
Matthew 1:20-21
An angel from the Lord came to (Joseph) in a dream. The angel said, "Joseph, the baby that Mary will have is from the Holy Spirit. Go ahead and marry her. Then after her baby is born, name him Jesus, because he will
save (sozo - heal) his people from (Greek apo - to separate from) their SIN."
Notice that it does not say "save his people from Hell" or even "punishment for sin." It literally says, he will save his people FROM their sin, the sin itself. Concerning Gehenna, here is what Jesus says:
Matt 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of
hell (Greek - krisis gehenna -
the judgment of the Valley of Hinnom)?
That word
"krisis" is where we get our English word
"crisis" and is actually a word meaning
"judgment." James' description of Gehenna fire, being a fire of the destructive power of sin, certainly fits in with the idea of a crisis, because James understood what the judgment is:
John 3:18-21
He who believes in Him (Jesus) is not judged; he who does not believe has been
judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This...is...the...judgment (Greek - krisis), that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.
Do you see how Jesus says "this is the KRISIS?" The judgment is this: mankind was turned over to the darkness of Gehenna long ago, beginning with Adam. You will find nothing in that description about Hell, or people being hurt by fire. No, what you see is that the KRISIS is sin itself, the darkness that people love, and their works which harm them, just as James said. Jesus was asking the Pharisees, how will they escape the judgment THEY WERE ALREADY ENDURING?
That's why he said that they were "judged already." They were already products of Gehenna, the destructive power of sin in their lives, and by refusing to believe in Christ, they were remaining in their sin, and not escaping the darkness.
There is NO evidence that Gehenna is a reference to an abode of the unsaved, and MUCH evidence that Gehenna is a condition of sinfulness that has destructive power in our lives.
BTW, I have more scriptural proofs and explanation that will probably make sense of all the scary scriptures your pastors are throwing at you. Those scriptures aren't scary when you know what they mean:
The Judgment of the World by the Cross Pt 1: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html
The Judgment of the World by the Cross Pt 2: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace2.html
Hi again UniversalSceptic,
I just wanted to add one short thing about this question: "Can we prove Jesus was not using Gehenna to describe what Hell looks like." This is known as a logical fallacy called "Argument from Silence." Example: "Purple flying elephants are real because you can't prove they don't exist." Don't let people put you in that position.
If someone makes the positive statement: "Jesus was using Gehenna to describe what Hell looks like" it's upon them to prove that point through scripture, or it's a personal judgment, not a doctrinal truth. Show us scriptures which prove this to be Christ's intention with Gehenna. If they can't, then they are not on scriptural ground.
On the other hand, I have given positive scriptural evidence to the contrary.
If you haven't seen it already, I would recommend taking a look at J Preston Eby's article called "Hell" from his Savior of the World Series (http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW1.htm#6). He mostly addresses Hades, but the idea is similar to Gehenna, at least as far as Universal Reconciliation is concerned.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on January 20, 2014, 06:11:50 PM
. Is their proof in the bible that Gehenna cannot be referred to a literal hell anywhere.
Excellent question and excellent responses! When people tell me that Gehenna is a metaphor for hell (After they find out its not "literal"), I respond to them that there would be no need for Jesus to use Gehenna as a metaphor to teach about hell, because the people of Israel were already completely aware of the concept of hell for the wicked, because it was prevalent in the pagan religions surrounding Israel for 1000's of years already!
If anything, Jesus would of actually had to clarify that when God said "do not follow the detestable ways of the pagans", he was excluding the pagans major central religious doctrine of hell! :Chinscratch:
UniversalSkeptic, have you ever stopped to consider why there is so little Scripture about Hell? If Hell were real, and our sinful nature so prone to get us sent there, would a loving God not have said much more about it in His Word? Think about that! Starting in the garden, God warned Adam and Eve that if they ate such-and-such a fruit, they would die. Just die. If Hell were real, He just might have added "risk eternal torment in Hell" to "die." Well, He didn't, and so on, so on, through the centuries of denouncing the sins of His people. Isn't that odd, if Hell does exist?
If Hell were real, I think the Bible would have a whole different tone, and there would be MUCH more said on the subject. Why do Hell proponents have to grasp at straws? As I like to say, it is (in part) a product of what I like to call "buffet theology," in which (to make a metaphor) a diner fills his plate with lime jello salad, sits down, and tells his tablemates that that is what the buffet is serving up, and nothing else. A diet of lime jello salad will get you sick if you eat nothing else, and so will Hell-centered theology.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on January 20, 2014, 06:11:50 PM
A lot of Hell believers seem to refer to Gehenna as a way for Jesus to describe the abode of the unsaved. My guess is when they think of Hell, they think of a large pit full of fire like Gehenna was. I fourn a greek bible at Scripture4all.com The problem is as far as I know the Greek bible could be talking about a literal hell, but just calling Gehenna. Is their proof in the bible that Gehenna cannot be referred to a literal hell anywhere.
I am pretty sure most here understand that Yahweh was in fact Jesus before he came to Earth as a man. Even so, the Scripture gives 100% proof that NEITHER Jesus or Father ever considered what we are told "Hell" or Gehenna are.
Jer 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom,
to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech;
which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Now ask yourself just one question. Could PERFECT LOVE "EVER" do such a thing? :girlheart:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
As the only begotten, the only one to proceed straight out from God (undifferentiated God) before God created anything, Jesus would know.. why not just describe it as a burning inferno of screaming souls.. where the screaming never dies.. in gehenna was tossed dead unconscious bodies of criminals not live screaming persons..
P.S. -
To me the biggest proof is sheol.. it was always simply "the grave"
And Israel understood fiery judgments to be upon earth during this life.. fiery consequences (as a nation to fall away from God - results in His Spirit no longer protecting from that which haTes them (and us) very aptly portrayed by their history.. 70 a.d. for instance was fiery.. and the holocaust, a different sort of fiery revenge..
Jesus "descended to the lower parts of the earth", to my mind, is still the dust of the grave.. the angels in chains waiting judgment are the chains of imperfection, once leaving their first estate of perfection into imperfection... imperfection cannot reverse its course (in their case) and make theirselves perfect.. they are in darkness locked into judgment..
And it all falls apart here too - God said after the fall "dust to dust" it was the other one who said "surely! you won't... die?"
It's hard to believe anyone believes the blasphemy of hell
It blasphemes God's holy and GOOD nature every day, AND, very effectively keeps the good news hidden.. For ppl cannot believe, love, and cleave to, the false image of God it portrays.. in reality.. a faLse God!!!!
But.. we are all preaching to the choir.. as they say :laughing7:
Quote from: marie glen on January 31, 2014, 05:37:14 PM
It's hard to believe anyone believes the blasphemy of hell
The sneakier blasphemy is annihilation. God burns them up and they are no more.
Is there such thing as a good fire?
.
Quote from: ed on January 31, 2014, 05:40:56 PM
Quote from: marie glen on January 31, 2014, 05:37:14 PM
It's hard to believe anyone believes the blasphemy of hell
The sneakier blasphemy is annihilation. God burns them up and they are no more.
Is there such thing as a good fire?
.
:thumbsup:
..and as if God is powerless to do anything about it.. or could lose.... anything!!
(Surely?) God can only be Perfect?? (And surely?) Perfection makes no mistakes!? Loses nothing!!
...if God wasn't perfect, wouldn't He too, fall apart.. cease....?
do you think God is life.. the life force itself? lately I keep reading ppl saying God made everything from nothing.. (but this is what the atheists think "everything from nothing" :Chinscratch: ) I think God made everything out of Himself.. matter is energy vibrating.. Nothing is impossible to God! we, puny humans, cannot possibly dream up a better 'end' result than He can!! (Surely?!)
:cloud9: :dsunny: :smile:
Quote from: ed on January 31, 2014, 05:40:56 PM
Quote from: marie glen on January 31, 2014, 05:37:14 PM
It's hard to believe anyone believes the blasphemy of hell
The sneakier blasphemy is annihilation. God burns them up and they are no more.
Is there such thing as a good fire?
.
To your question my answer is yes :dsunny: Heb 12:29 for also our God is a consuming fire.