Blows a Hole in It

[jabcat]

There's a statement in ET, "God doesn't send anyone to 'hell', we send ourselves there".

If there was a literal eternal hell to go to, at least a part of Romans 11 says otherwise.  Thankfully that's not what it really says, but taken at face value it would.  It says God hardens hearts and blinds eyes, including almost a whole nation of people for hundreds/thousands of years - Israel.  While the Gentiles are partaking of grace, Israel for the most part can't see it (Jesus, Messiah).  By God's design.  So if I believed in eternal damnation, I'd say "for those hundreds of years, those millions of people who didn't believe are consigned to hell - by God!!" 

So right there the doctrine doesn't stand up.

Enter the real plan of God.  Read in context, the chapter says that Israel is only hardened and blinded for awhile, while the Gentiles learn of God.  Then, ALL Israel will be saved, God will teach and restore them, that their condition was only temporary.  Good news!

5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    eyes that could not see
    and ears that could not hear,
to this very day."
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
    11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins."32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

[Dandelion]

I believe that theological theory was promoted much by one of my most beloved theologians, C.S.Lewis.

I was introduced to him and his writings, while in graduate school, and I immediately was captivated by him.

However, as time marched on, I came to not agree with this theory.

We can find this in his famous book, The Great Divorce, which is a bus ride, going between Heaven and Hell, with many interesting characters, along the way.

This does seem to be a general belief of many Christians I know.

Anyway, I am a UR believer now.

A mentor of C.S. Lewis, George MacDonald, was one of the foremost UR believers of all time. And, I hear, C.S. almost went over to George's side, but ultimately, did not.

D.

[Shev]

As usual, this is an example of man glorifying his own will, even in the negative sense in this case. Both the church and the world talk about our choices being paramount, and that we choose our destiny - even choosing Christ. But the scriptures speak of God choosing, and us being chosen by Him. The church speaks of "accepting" Christ (as if He were unacceptable!) but the scriptures say the Father has made US "accepted in the Beloved."

The glorification of our will is that same fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, always obsessing over the right choice. But Jesus Christ is the tree of Life!

[eaglesway]

Indoctrination and fear make people blind and cause them to grovel before theological idols.

[micah7:9]

As usual, this is an example of man glorifying his own will, even in the negative sense in this case. Both the church and the world talk about our choices being paramount, and that we choose our destiny - even choosing Christ. But the scriptures speak of God choosing, and us being chosen by Him. The church speaks of "accepting" Christ (as if He were unacceptable!) but the scriptures say the Father has made US "accepted in the Beloved."

The glorification of our will is that same fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, always obsessing over the right choice. But Jesus Christ is the tree of Life!

:dsunny:

[eaglesway]

"Remember the former things long past,
            For I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is no one like Me,

      10Declaring the end from the beginning,
            And from ancient times things which have not been done,
            Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
            And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Isaiah 46

Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him Eph 1

[joeteekay]

There is no mention of free will or free moral agency in the bible. Many people believe what the theologians and preachers have told them and conclude that this concept is in the bible. It is not. Yes, "free offering" is there. Also mention of our will and God's will is there. Mention of making choices is there too. But to place the word "free" in front of "will" or "choice" is reading into scripture what is not there. God's will, is supreme, ours is not.
We have a will but it is constrained by a number of factors. We do not have unlimited free will.

The difficulties that many experience on the subject arise from failure to see that man's freedom lies in the sphere of preference and desire, and not in the sphere of action. Our will is free to the extent that we are at liberty to choose and plan, but God oversees our acts. Man can purpose and determine and choose, and according to his choosing he is held accountable. Man cannot go against God's will.

Prov. 16:9 (KJV)  A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Prov. 20:24 (KJV) Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Prov. 19:21 (KJV) There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

In other words, we determine all our wishes and desires, but only those which the Lord designs are carried out. Sometimes man is allowed to carry out his devices, and sometimes not; it all depends upon whether they coincide with God's plan or not; what He can use for His praise.

Eph 1:11 (KJV) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This tells us that God works all things after the counsel of His will. This could not be true if man had power to act contrary to the will of God and to resist it indefinitely. Furthermore, the apostle Paul stated that "of him, and through him, and unto him are all things" (Rom 11:36). So it is an utter impossibility for any creature to have its own way and to continue persist in it. Clearly, God absolutely controls man's actions but does not destroy man's freedom nor his responsibility.

A misinformed church pastor said this:

The cause of man's plight is not ignorance of the right, but his own desire, which leads him to substitute his will for the will of God. This simple story illustrates why man's relationship with God has run afoul. By deliberate choice, man separates himself from God, who created him and gives him freedom to choose.

How outrageous it is to say that a man can substitute his will for God's will. This poor man has the opinion that mans will can overpower and be superior to that of God. Totally offensive!

The vast majority of preachers and bible scholars hold the position that man is a free moral agent. This teaching leads them to conclude that men can reject the saving power of Jesus Christ.  They claim that is what the bible teaches, but it does not.

It is said that God gave Adam and Eve free moral agency and thereby they could decide, independent of God, to take of the tree of life or the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Sadly almost everyone believes they made the wrong choice by eating of the tree of good and evil. It was not the wrong choice and God knew before hand what they would do. It is part of His plan.

If God's will is ever thwarted because of our "free will", then He is not almighty. If His will is thwarted, then His plans must be changed, and hence He is not all-wise and immutable. since His will is never thwarted, then all things are in accordance with His will and He is the architect of all things as they exist. If He is all-wise and all-good, then all things, existing according to His will, is working toward a wise and wonderful end.

[Ross]

If God's will is ever thwarted because of our "free will", then He is not almighty.

:thumbsup:
Can the pot tell the potter why it has been made?
Isaiah and Paul make this very observation- 600 years apart mind you.

[micah7:9]

There's a statement in ET, "God doesn't send anyone to 'hell', we send ourselves there".

If there was a literal eternal hell to go to, at least a part of Romans 11 says otherwise.  Thankfully that's not what it really says, but taken at face value it would.  It says God hardens hearts and blinds eyes, including almost a whole nation of people for hundreds/thousands of years - Israel.  While the Gentiles are partaking of grace, Israel for the most part can't see it (Jesus, Messiah).  By God's design.  So if I believed in eternal damnation, I'd say "for those hundreds of years, those millions of people who didn't believe are consigned to hell - by God!!" 

So right there the doctrine doesn't stand up.

Enter the real plan of God.  Read in context, the chapter says that Israel is only hardened and blinded for awhile, while the Gentiles learn of God.  Then, ALL Israel will be saved, God will teach and restore them, that their condition was only temporary.  Good news!

5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    eyes that could not see
    and ears that could not hear,
to this very day."
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
    11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins."32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

:goodpost: :dsunny:

[TheJason]

Yeah, honestly, it's tough to work around double predestination. Only UR can without making it all seem incredibly unfair.