PROBLEM VERSES WITH "AION"
by Don C. Hewey
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Universalists assume that "aion" is denoting "a period of time" or "an indeterminable amount of time." If this is true, several problems are introduced and are contradictory to the attributes of the most High God. Not to also mention, that acceptance of this definition for "aion" also contradicts and denies the universalist defintion of endless life. How can we live endlessly with a God that is "temporarily" righteous, is not immortal, has no glory, is not wise, has no endless kingdom, and does not abide endlessly?
Let us examine some attributes of God within the context of the verse's with the word "aion" contained within these verses:
If and only if, "aion" is temporary then the following assumptions must be true
* The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)
* The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)
* God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
* God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)
* God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)
* God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)
* God is not immortal, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
* God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)
1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal[aion], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.
1Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they (his servants---Rev. 22:3) shall reign for ever[aion] and ever[aion].
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible(1 Cor. 15:52), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever[aion].
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever[aion]. Amen.
Revelation 10:6 "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are,..."
1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever[aion].
Matthew 6:13 "...For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever[aion]. Amen."
John 12:34 "...that Christ abideth for ever[aion]:..."
John 14:16 "...the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever[aion];..."
Romans 1:23 "...And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God..."
Romans 1:25 "...the Creator, who is blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."
Romans 9:5 "... Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."
Romans 16:27 "To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever[aion]..."
2Corinthians 9:9 "...his righteousness remaineth for ever[aion]."
Galatians 1:5 To whom [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.
Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Ephesians 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.
Here is an article written by David Sielaff that explains a little about the aions. As he says at the bottom, "time has a beginning and an end". Which applies to our realm.
The word eternal doesn't have an end, it is without beginning or end and only applies to God.
CHB
http://www.askelm.com/news/n041101.htm
ASK Commentary
November 1, 2004 Ages Article online
Commentary for November 1, 2004 —November Newsletter and Article
Time is the subject of this month's November 2004 Newsletter and Article which are now on the ASK Website. This month's article is titled "The Time Periods of Salvation?" In this article (and subsequent articles with additional material) it is made plain that the time periods, called ages, are an important part of God's creation. Of course, all creation comes from God the Father through Jesus Christ (John 1:1–3), as the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthian ekklesia:
"But to us there is but one God, the Father,
of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom are all things, and we by him.
Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge."
• 1 Corinthians 8:6–7
Everything, time included, is part of that creation.
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds [Greek aions, ages]."
• Hebrews 1:1–2
What Is an "Age"?
An age (aion in Greek) is a period of time with a beginning and an end, although the duration of the time period and the exact time of the beginning or end is sometimes indeterminate. The Son of God, Jesus Christ, made the "ages" just like the other rudiments of physical creation such as birds, trees, rocks, and man. In fact, one of the "ages" is denoted as being unique in its designation as being an evil age:
"Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world [Greek aion, age], according to the will of God and our Father."
• Galatians 1:3–4
The aions or the "ages" are part of the creation of God. Time also is a creation of God, manifested in the periods called "ages." Not surprising Christ is the center of that creation of time, the center of the "ages," just as He is the center of the Word of God. (See the "Diagram: The Symmetry of the Bible" at the introductory webpage for Dr. Martin's book at Restoring the Original Bible.
Oscar Cullmann clearly recognized this in his book Christ and Time: The Primitive Christian Conception of Time and History (trans. by Floyd Filson, Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1950, pp. 17 & 21) where he explains that Christ's incarnation and birth, His life, His work, His death, His resurrection and His ascension are the central crisis or decisive point of time in the "ages," just like it is the crisis point of the salvation process. Christ is the center of history.
In fact, the creation of time and the "ages" is for the sole purpose of constantly referencing Christ and His work in the redemptive process (Cullmann, p. 54). Once the salvation of all has been accomplished and God has become "all in all" then the ages will have their end. In the resurrection and judgment mankind will look back and see that all of history was leading up to Christ:
"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world [aions, ages] has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ."
• Ephesians 3:9
"Even the mystery which has been hid from ages [aions] and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
• Colossians 1:26
After Christ, all of history shows the Lordship of Christ through the completion of God's plan in the "ages," accomplished through Christ's work. God's words and actions last for the age (1 Peter 1:25).
"And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages [aions] to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."
• Ephesians 2:6–7
Christ is sovereign over the ages and he shall rule for the remaining ages (Luke 1:33 and Hebrews 13:8). He is the king of the ages:
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation: that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting [aionian, age-lasting]. Now unto the King eternal [of the aion, age], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever [aions of the aions, ages of the ages]. Amen."
• 1 Timothy 1:15–17
God's creation of the ages and the system of time that they display is important to the Gospel of Christ. Time has a beginning and an end. Each age has a beginning and an end. Some ages are successive, some are contiguous and overlap. The ages will end and time will end when God becomes all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28) and the Kingdom of Christ is given to the Father after the subjection of all to Christ (Philippians 2:10–11).
Your life during this current evil age (Galatians 1:4) will be useful to God, and you will greatly benefit, if you study carefully "The Time Periods for Salvation" and the doctrine of the ages.
God is the Great 'I AM'. He was, He Is, and He will always be! Does not need any "forever" "ever(s)" or "eternal" or "everlasting" words attatched to His being.
It is an ASSUMPTION to believe that time ends. There is no evidence of it ending anywhere in Scripture, the only evidence is that God is the beginning and God is the end, but that in itself has NEVER demonstrated an end to time. There is way too many assumptions in the new stream of Universalists rebuttals that will ever make him or her credible.
First Don C. Hewey, assumes that all Universalists hold the definition of Aion to be: "a period of time" or "an indeterminable amount of time." not realizing the latter definition neither has a limit or a definitive end. And for the Universalist, they make the mistake of believing the latter definition is a 'period of time' with beginning and end.
Everything Don C. Hewey has said about AION meaning infinite is true and everything the Universalist says about AION meaning limited is true. The word is an age, ages can have beginning and ends, it also can be unbroken.
It is REALITY which is where we get our understanding, even the things of the SPIRIT are set in REALITY in order that those who have the Spirit can know the Spirit.
NEXT,
AION and AIONIOS are NOT the same thing. The same fallacy of confusing these two terms when discussing ETERNAL, ETERNITY, AGE, FOREVER, EVER, NEVER, etc. just keeps going a round and round. When will Reason and Logic come into play? Why do our beliefs always dictate what something should be instead of what that thing is dictating our belief?
AION and AIONIOS can be unlimited, perpetual, permanent, enduring, continuous, incessant, constant, unending, uninterrupted and unbroken.
AION and AIONIOS can be limited, transistory, temporary, finite, discontinuous, broken.
That is the reality of the word, REGARDLESS if one is a Universalist or not.
Now recently, with the above I am absolutely sure of, an understanding which I had not focused on, has come to my attention. A definition which I have seen before but I was too busy fighting the Bifurcation Fallacy of Either/Or, that I have not been able to bring to light the other meanings of AION and AIONIOS, is AION and AIONIOS can be or mean transitional, transitionary, and transitionally. AIONIOS in particular.
Transitional means to go from one state to another.
AIONIOS ZOE, also known as Eternal Life in Scripture, has been held on by some Conditionalist as 'perpetual' God-life which is given to those who believe.
AIONIOS ZOE, also known as Eternal Life in Scripture, has been held on by some Universalists as a 'temporary' God-Life given to those who believe in this 'temporary' mortal-life.
AIONIOS ZOE, also known as Eternal Life in Scripture, can also be understood as a 'transitionary' God-Life, or God-Changing Life. It is is perpetual in the intrinsict nature of ZOE, but temporary as in the process of change will be complete or is complete.
It is this latter definition has been held by some universalists and some conditional salvationists, as being a quality and not a quanity, but have had a very hard time explaining it.
AIONIOS ZOE, is also transitionary God-Life or God-Changing Life. Certain AIONS are transitionary never really ending but change to one thing to another.
When we have finally come out of the archiac battle of the False Dilemma, we begin to go on to better understandings.
I am amazed at the depth of meaning behind the words, olam, aion, aionios, eternal, ect.... !!! :omg:
QuoteIt is an ASSUMPTION to believe that time ends. There is no evidence of it ending anywhere in Scripture
crovnoß ouj e[ti = time no longer
Finelinen, excellent, you found a phrase in greek, can you show us where it is written in Scripture? Thanks.
:cloud9: CHB, you posted this part, "he explains that Christ's incarnation and birth, His life, His work, His death, His resurrection and His ascension are the central crisis or decisive point of time in the "ages," just like it is the crisis point of the salvation process. Christ is the center of history."
I wonder if that man knows just how true that really is. He really IS the center of everything that has ever been or will be. He gave me a vision of the cross in the context of time where everything like "exploded" backwards thru the OT and forward thru the NT at the same time. We tend to think of it as a linear progression, but that's only true from our limited perspective.
The Lord spoke to me one day while I was reading the Word and said, "Time is the measurement of death; something has to die to create time." I was stunned, and asked Him what He meant. He had me to look outside and I saw the seasons, and winter was like death. Death is the last enemy to be overcome, PTL. Blessings to all.....
Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Nice taking something out of context to make a point.
Now in context:
Revelation 10:6-9 (King James Version)
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
Revelation 10:6-9 NIV
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay! But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."
Revelation 10:6-9
He swore an oath by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: "There will no longer be an interval of time, but in the days of the sound of the seventh angel, when he will blow his trumpet, then God's hidden plan will be completed, as He announced to His servants the prophets."
Any more?
I noticed you used a different translation for your position SOTW - I think this is why Finelinen originally posted the Greek - so that we could see the literal translation of what was written in the Greek, that is, time no longer, which is not thrown out of context by the next verses in my opinion, but the next verses simply say that at that moment the mystery of God is finished. :dontknow:
The phrase means just as it says.
There is no time. There will be no longer time. Which means with no further delay. Nothing we can do about it.
"In no time, in 30 minutes or less your pizza will be delivered."
or
"There is no more time, so get your diamond ring special before it is gone."
What does it say?
"There is no time, but in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."
The phrase that there should be time no longer, is speaking of no delay. There shall be no more time, in the days that the trumpet sounds, the mystery of God will be accomplished.
At no time, was time ever the focus of that Scripture and therefore was not talking about time ending or being no more, but rather no more delay. Once again, using Scripture out of context is not evidence of proof that time ends. You could say I just said, there is no time by taking me out of context where I said, "At no time..."
In order to SUPPORT that is what Revelation 10 is saying, you will need another reference.
It is not that I am not satisfied, it is that I am not a stupid person, nor am I ignorant. I have devoted almost all my life to studying Scripture and it's words. This is not a pride thing, this is something that I have experience in, where some people went to school to learn medicine, administration, marketing, I went to school to learn Scripture. No man can say I am decieved especially among the Universal Salvation camp, because lo and behold, I believe in Universal Reconciliation and Salvation of all mankind.
So, 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' show more.
(removed volunteerly, as it is off topic.)
I tend to agree with Cardinal, that time is a measurement of death, when there is no more death, time loses its meaning. We do know that time is part of the fabric of the universe, just as space is - but beyond that its a pretty hard thing for my mind to wrap around.
Or should I more accuretely say the the measurement of time is a measurement till death. :dontknow:
:cloud9: Pretty simple principle, really, if you think about it. If time is the measurement of death, and there is no death in His Spirit, then there is no time in His Spirit, either. Something, in this case Christ, the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world who formed all things out of Himself, "died" to create time.
Which is why we know that He is coming, He has come, and He will come, because He has no beginning and no end, in Spirit. Blessings to all.....
The difference between measurement of time, and no time at all, is huge and mean completely different things. We needed something which was constant in order to measure time. Though I disagree that measurement of time is only found in death. In the human perception, time is also measured by the position of the earth is to the sun and the stars. There is no death found in this cycle. The sun may set, but that is not the death of the sun, it actually never died it just went over the horizon and will soon come up again; even then that is a error in perception, it is actually the earth that is turning, not the sun setting. Also, we measure everything by the birth of Christ, not his death, it is 2007 AD (Year of our Lord) starting at the supposed date of Jesus's birth.
Death in this mortal existence also can be a marker of other events. The death of Jesus Christ signified the Kingdom of God came. The death of JFK, the death of Elvis, the death of a loved one, etc. These are all points of crisis, which changed us but not really a measurement of time. Though as long as there is something constant activity, time can be measured by it. Death is a constant activity on a mortal existence, for accurate time, we measure death of an atom radioactive signature, that is called the atomic clock and is accurate.
:cloud9: I think you missed the point. To be lowered into this existence from Spirit, is a "death". Spirit of God has no death, therefore no time. It also has no atoms and no sun. So what He said about time being the measurement of death, then makes perfect sense. Blessings to all.....
I did not miss any point. If there is anything constant in heaven, we have time. If the four beasts say, "Holy Holy Holy, is the Lord God almighty, who was and is and is to come." There is time in heaven. In fact, if there was nothing more constant, it would be this praise.
Now we see another disagreement, another assumption of some Christian Universalists have created to believe in Universal Salvation is that we were born spiritual somehow lowered to this existence into a mortal body. It is either because some of them came from a Latter Day Saint background, or Unitarian background, but this position is not held by most in Christianity, even in Christian Universalists. A position not found much but within a few tentmaker people and argued to the point of absurdum. This doctrine of pre-existence is needed to these individuals in order to reconcile in their mind the restoration of all things, restoring us to our 'previous' spiritual existence or else logically (the think) we are restored to a mortal state, which contradicts their doctrine of salvation and mortality. Perhaps not taking into account that restoration has nothing to do with our previous existence, but a relationship mankind had to God prior to the fall of mankind. A matter of relationship, not being.
See, everything has a reason, every doctrine is derived from an idea and so forth.
:cloud9: Receive it or not, that is what He said. The four beasts are speaking out of a nature, the nature of the Spirit, which is praise to God, as evidenced on the day of Pentecost. It is constant because His Spirit is constant; time has nothing to do with the constancy of the realm of the Spirit, because there is no time in the Spirit.
And I am not a Christian Universalist. I am not one, because there is not one anywhere in the Word, and He has not led me to exalt one doctrinal fragment above another. Religions are built upon one man's experience, but the fragment of one man's experience does not constitute the whole. Twelve baskets of fragments are to be lifted up, not one. At the point I was water baptized, I was a Baptist, at the point I believed in a virgin birth I was Catholic, at the point I believed in the baptism of the Spirit I was a Pentecostal, ect. Men taught us to keep cattle from our youth, but no more, I have slain my beasts.
Nor did I say we/humans were "born spiritual" and lowered into a physical existance. To be born would necessitate a birth, which would by it's nature dictate a beginning and an end. That which is Spirit is Spirit, that which is flesh is flesh. Blessings to all.....
So you do not believe all mankind is saved through Jesus Christ? Because that is what is what a Christian Universalist is, someone who believes all mankind is saved through Jesus Christ. This isn't religion we are talking about Cardinal, this is sound doctrine.
See the reason why Aion must have an end to them is because they are against religion and they believe that religion says that hell goes on forever since it is Aionion. It is a fallacy of polar opposites, which states: A rainbow is not black, therefore the opposite of black (since it is wrong) must be white and conclude a rainbow must be white. This is what people are doing with Aion and aionion. They do not believe in eternal torment, so they must believe eternal must have an end and in doing so make an error in reason and logic to justify their belief, rather than having fact, reason and logic establish what they believe. Now we have another circular argument coming here. The assumption that there is no time in the Spirit is not being stated as fact even though they cannot prove anything.
:cloud9: I didn't say I didn't believe all men would be saved; I said I'm not a CU. There is a difference. My point is, I'm not labeling myself anymore based on ONE fragment of doctrine. The whole is the SUM of it's parts, the parts are not the whole.
And again, there is no time in the Spirit, because there is no death in the Spirit, and something has to "die" to create something measurable, ie. something subjected to the realm of time. If nothing died here and it went on forever, then it would be of Spirit, and not flesh because only Spirit is eternal. Which is why when the last enemy is destroyed, time will be no more, and He will roll up these heavens like a scroll.
I have seen it; I saw the natural sky begin to curl at the edges at night time like a scroll would roll, with a brilliant light coming thru the "tear" in the curtain of the sky, in a dream/vision, as plain as day, a few months after I came to the Lord. I didn't even know that scripture was in there at the time.
I don't know who the "they" is you're talking about. ET's? Or athiests? You lost me. Blessings to all....
QuoteAnd again, there is no time in the Spirit, because there is no death in the Spirit, and something has to "die" to create something measurable, ie. something subjected to the realm of time.
Already disproved this theory. Death is a measurement of time, but not time itself. Death is not the only measurement of time, and therefore the conclusion that there is no time in the Spirit is unproven. Therefore to insisting on this conclusion demonstrates there is poor understanding of the bigger picture.
The reason, the reality is without time, there is no life. God Himself has no beginning and end, because He Himself is the Beginning and the End. However all things in Him, continue to live. Life is always progressing, always moving, never stopping, always growing. That is what life is, and without time, there is no life at all but death. Death has never been part of time, it has only been a measurement of time, some of the time.
QuoteI don't know who the "they" is you're talking about. ET's? Or athiests?
I am talking about anyone who uses fallacy to prove their belief, rather than letting the facts shape their belief.
:cloud9: The Spirit of God IS LIFE. There is no death in His Spirit. If there was, then Jesus Christ could not have resurrected. If no death, then no time. The "theory" was His, not mine, you give me far too much credit. :winkgrin: Dispute it if you wish, but as He said, time is the measurement of death, something, (in this case Him) had to "die" to create time, else it would be Spirit without ceasing, forever without end. Blessings to all.....
I want to do this for myself if not anyone else...I'm feeling the need to apply myself in scripture. I want to take each verse and explain it as I see it.
QuoteIf and only if, "aion" is temporary then the following assumptions must be true
* The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)
1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal(aion), immortal, invisible, the ony wise God, be honour and glory for ever(aion) and ever(aion).
His mistake is saying that aion means 'temporary', rather it means 'pertaining to the age'. It seems that by saying he is both eternal and immortal seems redundant. Perhaps the emphasis on 'aion' means he is the king of the age....rather than the prince of the air. It also makes since to say he has honour and glory for the age of the ages...the messianic age? Not to say that this age ends, but emphasizing that this is when He gets the glory.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign forever(aion) and ever(aion).
They reign for the aion of the aion....but at some point all things are subjected to the Father and only He reigns....or by them reigning, it is the Father reigning and therefore a perpetual age.
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
'now and ever' seems that it means 'into/to every age(aion)' which does mean He has glory forever.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever (ice aion...into/to the age). Amen.
Yes, God has the glory and the power and the kingdom in the Messianic age...which is perpetual.
Gal 1:5 To whom be glory forever and ever (ice aion aion...into to the age) .Amen.
again God has the glory into/to the age....the Messianic age...which is perpetual.
Hey, I'm learning something here.. :happygrin:
(He said Romans 1:23, but I think he meant Romans 1:25)
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever(ice aion...to/into the age). Amen.
The Creator is blessed into that wonderful age...which is perpetual.
Php 4:20 Now unto God and our Father be glory forever and ever(ice aion aion). Amen.
God has glory into the age of age...the messianic age....which is perpetual.
If anyone reads this, let me know if you see something wrong in my understanding. I'm just using e-sword.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 31, 2007, 06:52:24 PM
:cloud9: The Spirit of God IS LIFE. There is no death in His Spirit. If there was, then Jesus Christ could not have resurrected. If no death, then no time. The "theory" was His, not mine, you give me far too much credit. :winkgrin: Dispute it if you wish, but as He said, time is the measurement of death, something, (in this case Him) had to "die" to create time, else it would be Spirit without ceasing, forever without end. Blessings to all.....
Are you sure He said the time is a measurement of death? Or did He say time is measured by death?
Death is a Kairos (time), a consumation of events in Chronos (time) for a purpose. It is not the end of time (Chronos), nor is it time (Chronos) itself; however, there may be no more Chronos (time) as Kairos (time) is fulfilled.
To say, it was his theory and leave it at that, is irresponsible behavior. It is the same thing a person does in that 'religious' church that many seem so much against, when they say, "Thus sayeth the Lord, you are all going to hell." and we ask them to prove it and they say, "It was not me, but the Lord who says it." in order to give what they think, their own opinion more credibility than it actually has. That is called, "An Appeal to Authority", or "Passing the Buck" fallacy.
As I said before, time is not measured by death even from a human perspective and from theological perspective, time began with birth, and even to this day we are 2007 (now going to be) 2008 in the year of our Lord (as measured by his birth). Tonight we celebrate the end of a cycle of time, called 2007. You can either be negative, and say we measure time by the death of 2007, or you can be positive and measure time by the birth of 2008. Though even though the years may pass and go, time continues despite any cycles which may change or be destroyed. In time, astronaughts will live on other planets and spaceships, they will not have day and night, they may not even have a way of measuring time, but time still exists, there measurement of it may not. That is what happens when there is no more death, the measurement of time dissappears but time itself remains.
Now I am going to repost what I wrote someone in an email concerning time used in Scripture.
The major mistake that most people are doing here is called an Anachronistic Fallacy. That is, applying our current understanding of physics (time), and believing that is how people 2000 years ago also views physics (time).
It was not until 1900's when Einstien made his famous discovery of special relativity, that time was proposed and theoretically agreed upon as the fourth dimension of space. So presently, we know that time and space are connected called the 'time-space' continuum. So with our present understanding of this theory of relativity, obviously if we leave this 'space' we also leave 'time' and hence time does not exist in the spirit. That, we can all agree on (believe it or not).
However, that is not how the Greeks understood time, nor how the prophets and apostles understood time, nor how was it applied or used 2000 years ago. According their understanding, time can never cease to be. It ended (as in the end of the day) but kept going, time was always and intrinsically immortal, an aspect of God Himself. In Him we live and move and have our being and God never dies and therefore time never ends.
Having a single experience, which is not proved or supported by anything else, makes it difficult to believe it was ever His Theory.
Let the apostles make it clear,
1 John 4:1Dear friends,
do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Galatians 1:8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
:cloud9: Craig, Satan was forbidden from seeking the body of Moses (letter/law ruling over the flesh). What spirit is it then, that has you seeking it? Hereafter, we'll not know Him (Jesus the WORD made flesh) after the flesh, but after the Spirit. There is NO life in the scriptures themselves, the life is in the SPIRIT, and that Spirit opens the scriptures with the keys of David. You can't touch it, and you can't nail it to the cross again. What He said is evident all thru the scriptures. Blessings to all......
I am wondering why noone has quoted this scripture to resolve this issue:
"When the trumpet of the lord shall sound and time shall be no more,
and the morning breaks eternal bright and fair,
when the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore,
and the roll is called up yonder I'll be there"
I think it's Hym:101 (verse one) and it definitely states that there will be no more time and that an 'eternal' morning will break. Furthermore, this particular scripture was originally written in good 'ole English - so translation debates don't come into play here at all. Plus, the apostle Paul sang this song in prison, giving proof that it is part of the inspired canon.
- byron
Quote from: firstborn888 on January 01, 2008, 01:15:41 PM
Plus, the apostle Paul sang this song in prison, giving proof that it is part of the inspired canon.
- byron
:thumbsup: That's right, Byron!
If it was good enough for Paul and Silas
It's good enough for me! :grin:
Happy New Year All...........
Ahhh! Byron, the levity was too wonderful........LOL
Enjoyed reading what has been shared.......Card, lead on your thoughts are higher yet and yes, Craig seems to bring them out........so it's all good, as a friend of mine says.
Joian
PS......Holly, good to see you on MyChurch.....didn't even realize it was you at first.......glad you will be sharing there.
Quote from: firstborn888 on January 01, 2008, 01:15:41 PM
I am wondering why noone has quoted this scripture to resolve this issue:
"When the trumpet of the lord shall sound and time shall be no more,
and the morning breaks eternal bright and fair,
when the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore,
and the roll is called up yonder I'll be there"
I think it's Hym:101 (verse one) and it definitely states that there will be no more time and that an 'eternal' morning will break. Furthermore, this particular scripture was originally written in good 'ole English - so translation debates don't come into play here at all. Plus, the apostle Paul sang this song in prison, giving proof that it is part of the inspired canon.
- byron
You are correct, I have asked for Scripture to show this fact, if it really exists.
We have discussed Revelation 10, where it is a meaning without further delay, time is short, time running out, time nolonger, etc. does not mean time ends, but rather a statement of no further delay in the consumation of the mystery of God. Concerning the mystery of God, we have run out of time, time is nolonger, as it would be revealed.
Where is the Scripture you posted come from? Never heard of it.
QuoteWhen the trumpet of the lord shall sound and time shall be no more,
and the morning breaks eternal bright and fair,
when the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore,
and the roll is called up yonder I'll be there"
Again this, in the context of the time, does not appear to say time nolonger exists but rather that which we have lived from past, present and future, shall no longer be.
Can we find any commentary prior to 1900's, which says that is what the passage/hymn meant so we can rule out the Anarchronism Fallacy of the space-time continuum?
Quote from: fullarmor2 on December 26, 2007, 07:58:58 PM
PROBLEM VERSES WITH "AION"
by Don C. Hewey
Copyright © 1998-1999, "1john57.com" of KJV Apologetics. All rights reserved. disclaimer
universal salvation main index
Universalists assume that "aion" is denoting "a period of time" or "an indeterminable amount of time." If this is true, several problems are introduced and are contradictory to the attributes of the most High God. Not to also mention, that acceptance of this definition for "aion" also contradicts and denies the universalist defintion of endless life. How can we live endlessly with a God that is "temporarily" righteous, is not immortal, has no glory, is not wise, has no endless kingdom, and does not abide endlessly?
Let us examine some attributes of God within the context of the verse's with the word "aion" contained within these verses:
If and only if, "aion" is temporary then the following assumptions must be true
etc; etc; ad infinitum...
It would be easy to say that anyone who would quote Don Hewey wasn't quoting much. I know Don rather well. He used to call me at my home and argue with me for 3 hours at a time. He would flood my forum with nonsense. I finally had to break off communication with him.
We need to be warned about people like Don Hewey. I mean that seriously. It makes no difference if you are ET, UR, or Partial Atonement; we need to avoid people like Brother Don. We all have our quirks and weakness of the flesh, along with a skeleton or two in the closet. But brother Don is different.
He considers himself to be a "Master Debater." But from what I experienced with him, his real purpose is to simply argue. You could prove your point was convincingly right and he would continue to ask you more questions than you can answer at one time. All he ever accomplished with me was waste bandwidth, and keep me distracted to such an extent that I couldn't get to other things I needed to get to.
But then I got to toying with him and he wasn't even mentally agile enough to catch on. I told him he would be a hoot at an upcoming New Year's Eve party. I said I had about 15 friends coming over on New Year's Eve, and he should come and discuss Eternal Torment with us. He called me on the phone a couple of days later to discuss the details. He was seriously considering coming to Northwest Arkansas from San Diego, California to speak at a fictitious New Year's Eve party. What a goob!
(Yeah, buddy! Come on out to N.W. Arkansas! We'll let you tell us that God hates His creation!)
Bottom line for me: I have nothing but pity for Don Hewey. I can't even give him the proper respect due a student of the scriptures. Because he isn't technically a student of the scriptures. All he is, is convinced. He is convinced he is right and everyone else is wrong. And talking with him on the phone I found him to be quite unpleasant. He was obnoxious, abrasive and belligerent, not to mention argumentative. If I wanted to talk to someone like that, I would talk to myself.
After my three hours on the phone with him, my inner "gut feeling" as that he wasn't even a Christian, but was an enemy of Christianity, and that his desire was to stir up dissension and confusion. He just wants to argue with someone about something. He has elected Christian Theology as his field of interest, and fixated on Universalism as the subject of his bile.
God help me if I am wrong in my assessment of him. But I don't think that I am. And I am serious about that.
And to all the brethren who were enjoying a few moments of Godly brevity, please accept my apologies for throwing a wet blanket.
Quote from: BenJasher on January 02, 2008, 06:33:47 AM
It would be easy to say that anyone who would quote Don Hewey wasn't quoting much. I know Don rather well. He used to call me at my home and argue with me for 3 hours at a time. He would flood my forum with nonsense. I finally had to break off communication with him.
We need to be warned about people like Don Hewey. I mean that seriously. It makes no difference if you are ET, UR, or Partial Atonement; we need to avoid people like Brother Don. We all have our quirks and weakness of the flesh, along with a skeleton or two in the closet. But brother Don is different.
He considers himself to be a "Master Debater." But from what I experienced with him, his real purpose is to simply argue. You could prove your point was convincingly right and he would continue to ask you more questions than you can answer at one time. All he ever accomplished with me was waste bandwidth, and keep me distracted to such an extent that I couldn't get to other things I needed to get to.
But then I got to toying with him and he wasn't even mentally agile enough to catch on. I told him he would be a hoot at an upcoming New Year's Eve party. I said I had about 15 friends coming over on New Year's Eve, and he should come and discuss Eternal Torment with us. He called me on the phone a couple of days later to discuss the details. He was seriously considering coming to Northwest Arkansas from San Diego, California to speak at a fictitious New Year's Eve party. What a goob!
(Yeah, buddy! Come on out to N.W. Arkansas! We'll let you tell us that God hates His creation!)
Bottom line for me: I have nothing but pity for Don Hewey. I can't even give him the proper respect due a student of the scriptures. Because he isn't technically a student of the scriptures. All he is, is convinced. He is convinced he is right and everyone else is wrong. And talking with him on the phone I found him to be quite unpleasant. He was obnoxious, abrasive and belligerent, not to mention argumentative. If I wanted to talk to someone like that, I would talk to myself.
After my three hours on the phone with him, my inner "gut feeling" as that he wasn't even a Christian, but was an enemy of Christianity, and that his desire was to stir up dissension and confusion. He just wants to argue with someone about something. He has elected Christian Theology as his field of interest, and fixated on Universalism as the subject of his bile.
God help me if I am wrong in my assessment of him. But I don't think that I am. And I am serious about that.
Yea, anyone who builds their apologetics on a pre-supposition of either/or fallacy as Don has, makes it pretty hard to take him seriously.
Quote
PROBLEM VERSES WITH "AION"
by Don C. Hewey
Copyright © 1998-1999, "1john57.com" of KJV Apologetics. All rights reserved. disclaimer
universal salvation main index
Universalists assume that "aion" is denoting "a period of time" or "an indeterminable amount of time." If this is true, several problems are introduced and are contradictory to the attributes of the most High God. Not
Just because God is the God of the ages doesn't prevent Him from being the God of eternity if there's stronger language in the Bible regarding His power. However, "aion" is about the only term of duration used in the New Testament regarding punishment for sin. There is no stronger language in the original languages of the Scripture to denote the perpetuity of punishments. It's not there. However, stronger language is used regarding the atributes, duration, glory, and power of God, of Christ, of the Holy Spirit, and of joint-heirs with Christ, otherwise known as "saints." On that alone, you're only left with annihilation of the wicked or their restoration. From there, you've got to look at what the clear promises of Scripture say, and though they mention destruction, they likewise point to a time beyond destruction when all who are destroyed will return singing the praises of God and of the Lamb.
If there's anything that Universalists are right about, it's "aion." I've seen too many hundreds of pages of research over the last 7 years that all lead to the same conclusions when you examine the usage of "aion" from the 5th century B.C. to the 5th century A.D. The idea of "eternity" first started entering into the lexicons in the 8th century A.D., and wasn't a dogmatism in the lexicons until the 16th century, when they nearly universally started asserting the duration of "aion" to mean everything from brief to endless. The latin Church tended to focus on their latin translation and other latin writings, so that's when the idea of endless damnation was cultivated. There is some dispute among scholars as to whether or not Jerome meant eternus to mean endless in the modern expectation of the word endless.
Many Universalists are wrong about many things, but they've got their scholarship down regarding the Universal Restoration, even if there's not perfect agreement on how exactly Christ has or will accomplish the biggest miracle He's ever performed thus far. Sorta like how a good Baptist knows how to lead you to Christ with their 4-spiritual laws pamphlet, sinner's prayers, etc., etc., etc., and how certain strains of the Charismatic movement know perdy near everything that that Bible has to say about the power and use/abuse of words,
UR folks know their stuff on how it's all going to turn out!
I have studied these words even before this was a problem or disagreement. All I can say is since the words are indefinite in their defining duration, we have all these disagreements on what it means.
Aion almost always refers to an fixed age of beginning and end. This is not to say God has a beginning and end, but rather He is the beginning and end of all things, therefore it is more abstract than concrete in it's understanding.
On the other hand, Aionios means it lasts as long as it lasts, so there is no guaruntee it ever ends except if there is any indication there is. This is not a contridiction. Forever, is a word in English, that can mean perpetuality or it could mean a very long time if it has an indication that it ends.
Many English authors use the word Forever in this manner. "I haven't seen you in forever." would mean you haven't seen the person in a long long time. On the other hand, "If you had a chance to win the lottery but burned your ticket, you lost that chance to win that lottery forever" would mean you perpetually have no more chances.
Even in English, all adjectives are limited to the noun they describe and can not surpass the quality of that noun. That is a big basketball, still refers to the size of a basketball, and reasonably, a basketball is not the size of the ever expanding universe. On the other hand, it could be 6' wide and tall, which is absurdly big for a basketball, or it could be just a few inches bigger than a regular basketball. A basketball must still posess the qualities that make it a basketball, regardless of it's adjective.
These facts of langauge and understanding seem to be clouded when speaking doctrine or religion in general. It is almost like people throw out common sense and general understanding when things like this come to light, and I have some idea why this is, but due to the fact some would take offense to my reasonings, I don't give them anymore. Language doesn't just stop obeying the laws of reason and logic and usage.
QuoteJust because God is the God of the ages doesn't prevent Him from being the God of eternity if there's stronger language in the Bible regarding His power.
Right, because there are other words in the Bible which has stronger language than aion and aionios, which come right out and say it is He is perpetual in all things.
I've tried to follow this thread, and am not so sure I fully understands all the arguments put forth.
Especially those of Craig. Therefore this a addressed to Craig. Of course anyone may answer :)
It's not meant as an argument either; but as a question (hopefully not quoted out of context)
but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory, 1 Cor 2:7 (YLT)
=> Here I read God created the ages (=time)
=> BTW that is in line with science that states that time started just after the big bang
And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come, 1 Cor 10:11 (YLT)
=> Here the ages end.
=> Can't find the verse stating God uncreates the universe.
So if the eons/ages/time is uncreated they automatically end.
Doesn't that mean aion, aionis by definition end?
Quote from: SOtW on December 31, 2007, 09:11:38 PM
The major mistake that most people are doing here is called an Anachronistic Fallacy. That is, applying our current understanding of physics (time), and believing that is how people 2000 years ago also views physics (time).
It was not until 1900's when Einstien made his famous discovery of special relativity, that time was proposed and theoretically agreed upon as the fourth dimension of space. So presently, we know that time and space are connected called the 'time-space' continuum. So with our present understanding of this theory of relativity, obviously if we leave this 'space' we also leave 'time' and hence time does not exist in the spirit. That, we can all agree on (believe it or not).
However, that is not how the Greeks understood time, nor how the prophets and apostles understood time, nor how was it applied or used 2000 years ago. According their understanding, time can never cease to be. It ended (as in the end of the day) but kept going, time was always and intrinsically immortal, an aspect of God Himself. In Him we live and move and have our being and God never dies and therefore time never ends.
I agree with the 2 parts of the quote. The special relativity part and the apostles not having understanding of this concept.
But that brings up more questions than it answers I'm afraid.
Did God inspire the words written by the apostles most to fit their time/knowledge/science or our time/knowledge/science?
In other words do we read the Bible with our knowledge or that of 2000+ years ago.
If the answer is 2000 years ago then my question is are we allowed to use Einsteins research when researching the Bible?
Thanks for being honest. Thanks for asking questions instead of assuming, when you did not understand.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2008, 04:21:38 PM
Quote from: SOtW on December 31, 2007, 09:11:38 PM
The major mistake that most people are doing here is called an Anachronistic Fallacy. That is, applying our current understanding of physics (time), and believing that is how people 2000 years ago also views physics (time).
It was not until 1900's when Einstien made his famous discovery of special relativity, that time was proposed and theoretically agreed upon as the fourth dimension of space. So presently, we know that time and space are connected called the 'time-space' continuum. So with our present understanding of this theory of relativity, obviously if we leave this 'space' we also leave 'time' and hence time does not exist in the spirit. That, we can all agree on (believe it or not).
However, that is not how the Greeks understood time, nor how the prophets and apostles understood time, nor how was it applied or used 2000 years ago. According their understanding, time can never cease to be. It ended (as in the end of the day) but kept going, time was always and intrinsically immortal, an aspect of God Himself. In Him we live and move and have our being and God never dies and therefore time never ends.
I agree with the 2 parts of the quote. The special relativity part and the apostles not having understanding of this concept.
But that brings up more questions than it answers I'm afraid.
Questions are good.
The word aion was used to describe a lifetime. In 99.99999998% of the time, all life begins and all life ends...
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2008, 04:21:38 PM
Did God inspire the words written by the apostles most to fit their time/knowledge/science or our time/knowledge/science?
In other words do we read the Bible with our knowledge or that of 2000+ years ago.
If the answer is 2000 years ago then my question is are we allowed to use Einsteins research when researching the Bible?
It is difficult to understand. How I see it is this, just because Einstein changed our definition of how time is understood does not mean that what was said 2000 years was incorrect.
Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born and you gave birth to the earth and the world, even the ages and ages, You are God.
So they believe God was outside time because He created it. At the same time, God is that 0.00000002%. Is God living? So how long is His lifetime?
Very clear answer Craig. I know 'all' about Einsteins theory so that makes it much easier to understand for me.
For your question how old God is. Depends if you are a young earth or old earth believer.
So my answers are:
a] God is 6000 years old.
b] God is 14.7 billion years old.
For the rest of his existance He lived outside time. (maybe even now)
"I'm the alpha and omega. The beginning and the end"
Isn't that about time too?
Without time you always live now. Never yesterday of tommorrow.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2008, 08:52:45 PM
Very clear answer Craig. I know 'all' about Einsteins theory so that makes it much easier to understand for me.
For your question how old God is. Depends if you are a young earth or old earth believer.
So my answers are:
a] God is 6000 years old.
b] God is 14.7 billion years old.
For the rest of his existance He lived outside time. (maybe even now)
"I'm the alpha and omega. The beginning and the end"
Isn't that about time too?
Without time you always live now. Never yesterday of tommorrow.
Exactly. So one is a view from theoretical science, while the other is a view of observed science.