Anyone Up To A Challenge?

[Doc]

Well, not to answer for Paul, but it's interesting to note that in that passage God is elohim, which is plural. The same as when Jesus said to the Pharisees, "have I not said that you are gods?" (elohim)

[Tim B]

Hmm..., I donno, but it sounds like polytheism to me! Although, I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite of what the Jews believed. Could the "us" be God and the Holy Spirit? Although, I've heard it suggested that the Holy Spirit is more or less the Spirit of God, as opposed to some "separate" person of God. But, I also do believe it says something about the Holy Spirit being grieved (I think Paul the Apostle mentions it within the New Testament), which would seem to suggest that he/it is a "separate" part of God. It's confusing!

[Doc]

Hmm..., I donno, but it sounds like polytheism to me! Although, I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite of what the Jews believed. Could the "us" be God and the Holy Spirit? Although, I've heard it suggested that the Holy Spirit is more or less the Spirit of God, as opposed to some "separate" person of God. But, I also do believe it says something about the Holy Spirit being grieved (I think Paul the Apostle mentions it within the New Testament), which would seem to suggest that he/it is a "separate" part of God. It's confusing!

This is from the same set of scriptures that say the Lord God is ONE, (yet He is also plural, hence elohim which is plural). It's not polytheism, it's what the scripture says. There is only one God. But there apparently are also "gods" (little g). This must refer to sons of God.

[Tim B]

Hmm..., I donno, but it sounds like polytheism to me! Although, I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite of what the Jews believed. Could the "us" be God and the Holy Spirit? Although, I've heard it suggested that the Holy Spirit is more or less the Spirit of God, as opposed to some "separate" person of God. But, I also do believe it says something about the Holy Spirit being grieved (I think Paul the Apostle mentions it within the New Testament), which would seem to suggest that he/it is a "separate" part of God. It's confusing!

This is from the same set of scriptures that say the Lord God is ONE, (yet He is also plural, hence elohim which is plural). It's not polytheism, it's what the scripture says. There is only one God. But there apparently are also "gods" (little g). This must refer to sons of God.

Ah, okay. That makes a little more sense. Still makes me wonder though, what exactly it means. Does it suggest that "the sons of God" were around prior to their existence on Earth?

[Doc]

Hmm..., I donno, but it sounds like polytheism to me! Although, I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite of what the Jews believed. Could the "us" be God and the Holy Spirit? Although, I've heard it suggested that the Holy Spirit is more or less the Spirit of God, as opposed to some "separate" person of God. But, I also do believe it says something about the Holy Spirit being grieved (I think Paul the Apostle mentions it within the New Testament), which would seem to suggest that he/it is a "separate" part of God. It's confusing!

This is from the same set of scriptures that say the Lord God is ONE, (yet He is also plural, hence elohim which is plural). It's not polytheism, it's what the scripture says. There is only one God. But there apparently are also "gods" (little g). This must refer to sons of God.

Ah, okay. That makes a little more sense. Still makes me wonder though, what exactly it means. Does it suggest that "the sons of God" were around prior to their existence on Earth?

That's what Origen believed, and a number of folks around here have seriously toyed with the idea, including me. I'm not sure myself, but I suppose it's possible. It's tough to clearly support from scripture.

[Tim B]

So... I once existed prior to Earth? That's a strange idea. Honestly, I'm not sure I buy that. Wouldn't that mean that Jesus probably existed too before He was created as the Son of God? Honestly, thinking it was God "and" the Holy Spirit makes more sense to me. But then again, Hell used to make more sense to me (well, honestly, it didn't make much sense at all, and scared the heck outta me), and I've had my mind changed.  :bigGrin: Meanwhile, it's some interesting stuff to discuss.

BTW, Origen = Win lol

[jabcat]

....the spirit will return to God who gave it.  Ecc. 12:7     If something returns, I believe it was already there before...as a "piece" of God?   :dontknow:  (Eph. 5:30 because members we are of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones;)  or something else/some other explanation, I'm not sure...but it returns...I believe pre-existence in some manner...ideas?

[Doc]

....the spirit will return to God who gave it.  Ecc. 12:7     If something returns, I believe it was already there before...as a "piece" of God?   :dontknow:  (Eph. 5:30 because members we are of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones;)  or something else/some other explanation, I'm not sure...but it returns...I believe pre-existence in some manner...ideas?

In another thread, WillieH pointed me to the parable of the prodigal son. Note that the prodigal son in the story was with the father before he left, as well as after he returned.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:  Good point.

[martincisneros]

...one of the 'heavy hitters' in the ET camp...

Slight correction, if not correction then clarification is in order. There are no heavy hitters with eternal torment.  There are some PHENOMENAL Bible teachers, theologians, and pastors that UNFORTUNATELY happen to believe the eternal torment HERESY.  They all become light weights when they go there with the eternal torment nonsense, eternal separation, or whatever their current politically correct terminology for God's eternal hatred that they preach that I can't find in the Bible after a few things got corrected in my understanding from the Scriptures.  But there are no heavy hitters with eternal torment, in terms of someone having thrown a Scriptural slam dunk.

The moment someone goes into some version of eternal duality, they've shown how little they currently know of the Scriptures, even if on a subject or two, or even a dozen, in the Scriptures, your head just went numb on how they tied the Scriptures together and brain tissue's running out of your ears and messing up your shoes and making it look like you're standing in swiss cheese.  Every single person who believes the eternal torment lie, eternal separation, eternal death, eternal annihilation, or whatever version of it they want to believe in -- every single one of 'em have the fear of death, no matter what.  They're afraid of losing someone to it, if not themselves.  While that's the case, they're not really free.  And they've poisoned so much of the culture with it, so that even reprobates are scared to death and prevented from living excellent lives [within the range of their level of light] because of that.

There is zero fear without the fear of death; fear of any kind is always the fear of death.  Was watching the new Star Trek movie that came out last year and James T. Kirk had to jump after someone without a parachute in one scene and then his own parachute didn't work, and without ruining the movie for anyone that hasn't seen it, basically their bacon was saved by someone skillfully using their transporter technology, though barely/narrowly 'cause of how fast they were falling.

Not too many Christians could have made that jump miles high after someone BECAUSE of the eternal torment lie that keeps 'em from living extraordinary lives.  Most people in countries with a heavy Christian influence [as Christianity is currently known and generally interpreted by the mainstream of it's adherents] couldn't have made that jump either without having had a total heart attack.  A lot of Post Traumatic Stress is from the eternal torment lie, even when you're dealing with soldiers.  It's more of a subliminal to where I realize the argument this could cause with almost anyone 'til they were willing to really really meticulously disect those kinds of situations, and even then they might not see it for years on that one.  But what makes death horrific is the lie that anyone can be separated from His love, and that we might legitimately never see someone ever again.

The degree to which someone believes the eternal torment lie is the end of excellence in their studies and meditations, their teachings and their lifestyle.  The degree to which they believe the eternal torment lie, or some version of it; some modification of it that bottomlines in eternity so that other versions aren't the less gruesome because of the issue of eternity -- to the degree that one believes that, one is not in love with their God and His Wisdom, if they're of a sound mind and a pure conscience.  To the degree that someone believes the eternal loss lie, I'm not sure that a pure conscience is possible without a degree of insanity in their thoughts, emotions, behaviour, expectations, and productivity.

[Beloved Servant]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIkQ7YVys_A