Anybody want to answer this one?

[IceDash]

The person who posted name Shotgun Plasma is me :laughing7:

anyway the guy called Sodajones fight back with a tough answer.

here the post link what going on what I said:

http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=90965&page=2

so what you think? any new bullet i need :grin:

[sven]

i can't open the link, maybe you wanna copy it? i maybe find an answer

[IceDash]

Originally Posted by Shotgun Plasma 
you should read the bible again because God did say "he will have "ALL" to be saved"

Have you read the chapter or did you just find this verse and decide to apply it to a context of your choosing? Have you taken into considering the fact that you are reading a Bible in a language that is not native to its origin?

Here is another translation


Quote:
And Your (R)godly ones shall bless You.
11They shall speak of the (S)glory of Your kingdom
And talk of Your power;
12To (T)make known to the sons of men Your mighty acts
And the (U)glory of the majesty of Your kingdom.
13Your kingdom is an (V)everlasting kingdom,
And Your dominion endures throughout all generations.
14The LORD (W)sustains all who fall
And (X)raises up all who are bowed down. 

That's from the New American Standard translation, a modern translation.

I'm having a hard time magically applying this single verse to the vast assumptions that some of you are making.

There are at least 30+ different English translations of the Bible, each written at a different point in our history using variations of English that obviously have changed in context or meaning over time.

The equivalent of what you guys are doing would be to use the word "gay."
Let's say that in the 1950's a translation of the Bible says that "Moses felt gay." Obviously the context at that time would be that Moses was filled with happiness. The lazy interpretation and application you would present is that Moses is a homosexual.

[IceDash]

so what do you think?

[legoman]

What was his point?

For reference, here is the verses in the KJV:

Psalm 145
10All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
11They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
12To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
13Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
14The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.

What was the "magical verse" that he was speaking of?  Was it 1 Tim 2:4 or something like that?

Legoman

[Paul Hazelwood]

The person who posted name Shotgun Plasma is me :laughing7:

anyway the guy called Sodajones fight back with a tough answer.

here the post link what going on what I said:

http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=90965&page=2

so what you think? any new bullet i need :grin:

Hi IceDash,

The link makes me have to log in to see the post and I did see that you posted the message.   My question is what view point does the person your debating with have?

[IceDash]

Matt 13:47-50 "Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a dragnet, that was cast into the sea, and gathered some fish of every kind, which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach. They sat down, and gathered the good into containers, but the bad they threw away. So will it be in the end of the world. The angels will come forth, and separate the wicked from among the righteous, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."

Sodajones gave me this tough question that there is eternal fire, so how am I going to tell him it not when the word furnace of fire mention and the gnashing of teeth.

[IceDash]

2Sa 22:6 -
The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me
De 32:22
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the
foundations of the mountains.
Job 11:8 -
It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Ps 9:17 -
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Ps 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ps 55:15
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Isa 14:15 -
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Eze 31:16 -
I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.


Duet. 32:22
2Sam 22:6
Job 11:8, 26:6
Psalms 9:17, 16:10, 18:5, 55:15, 86:13, 116:3, 139:8,
Pro. 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:24, 23:14, 27:20
Isa 5:14, 14:9, 14:15, 28:15, 28:18, 57:9

Etc.


it does seem the old testament mention eternal fire, does it?

[Paul Hazelwood]

it does seem the old testament mention eternal fire, does it?

Sure, in the concept that the end is imperceptible,  it certainly can be valid in the translation that uses that word.

[IceDash]

that's it? come on, are you guys doing thid out wishful thinking?

[Paul Hazelwood]

that's it? come on, are you guys doing thid out wishful thinking?

What are you expecting?

[IceDash]

I am expecting some answer, it didn't look like you can't answer that question I ask?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I am expecting some answer, it didn't look like you can't answer that question I ask?

Guess I am not understanding.  How did I not give an answer?

[IceDash]

Matt 13:47-50 "Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a dragnet, that was cast into the sea, and gathered some fish of every kind, which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach. They sat down, and gathered the good into containers, but the bad they threw away. So will it be in the end of the world. The angels will come forth, and separate the wicked from among the righteous, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."

Sodajones gave me this tough question that there is eternal fire, so how am I going to tell him it not when the word furnace of fire mention and the gnashing of teeth.

This question.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Matt 13:47-50 "Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a dragnet, that was cast into the sea, and gathered some fish of every kind, which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach. They sat down, and gathered the good into containers, but the bad they threw away. So will it be in the end of the world. The angels will come forth, and separate the wicked from among the righteous, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."

Sodajones gave me this tough question that there is eternal fire, so how am I going to tell him it not when the word furnace of fire mention and the gnashing of teeth.

This question.

First off that passage does not contain the word eternal anything.  Secondly my answer talking about the perception of whats going on is part of the issue with translations.  If your going to try to debate this person based upon the message you posted what is ever going to convince him in the first place?   Or are you trying to win debates to convince yourself? 

He is already accusing "you guys" of cherry picking translations to form an opinion.   Olam in the old testament has a dual concept to it.  We can see that the ancient Hebrews saw things as a time far off, that does not solidify that a word must be translated to eternal, yet just always translating to the literal EON does always fit completely either since it does not convey the whole intended meaning.

Aionios in the new testament generally means pertaining to the ages because to always translate it literally to eternal causes contradiction.  Yet we also see that conceptually seeing the pages of the bible where it is talking concepts of time or applying something to a God who is immortal, the meaning can imply a timeless perception which actually broadens understanding.

I am sorry if that is not a satisfactory answer to you, but that is where I am at.

[jabcat]

Some studies I've read Ice, are about the use of eternal UNTIL the purpose is served...the ETERNAL fire on the altar that burned FOREVER UNTIL its purpose was served...it was ETERNAL, but is not literally burning right now.  The ETERNAL fire at the gate of Jeruselam (no longer there), Jonah in fish's belly FOREVER...was there only a few days...the use of those apparently were FOREVER/UNREVERSABLE UNTIL God decided they had served their purpose.

Here is a very good explanatory excerpt from J. Preston Eby's Lake of Fire Series.  I would personally suggest you read some of these writings, soak in their content, really be convinced yourself prior to getting into too many debates with ET'ers.  There is much available on the Tent Home Page that can answer many of your questions and help equip you to defend your faith.

God's blessing, James.

Excerpt from LoF Series, J. Preston Eby.

More than 2500 years ago the Holy Spirit warned the wicked inhabitants of Jerusalem that God would kindle a fire at Jerusalem's gates which would devour her palaces. "But if you will not hearken unto Me ... then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not he quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Did not God say this fire "shall NOT BE QUENCHED?" This prophecy was fulfilled and the fire did occur a few years later and it did destroy all the houses of Jerusalem (Jer. 52:13). Since God said no person or thing would "quench" this fire, did that mean that it would burn for ever? Since it accomplished the work it was sent to do, and since it is NOT BURNING TODAY, it obviously went out by itself after accomplishing its purpose! Unquenchable fire is not eternal fire - it is simply fire that cannot be put out until it has consumed or changed everything it is possible for it to change! It then simply goes out, for there is nothing more to burn. Yet I hear the preachers ranting and raving about poor souls being cast into bell fire where "their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" and this, we are told, means eternal, unending torment. How foolish, illogical, and deceptive! Such a view contradicts the plain meaning of the term "unquenchable" and its use in the Word of God.

Are the judgments of God permanent? Isaiah says, "When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" (Isa. 26:9). And Mat. 12:20 says, "A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory." Judgment, therefore, is not an eternal condition, but it is given to produce that victory. Judgments of themselves do not save anyone, but they are used by God to bring one to one's self, to effect a change of attitude and will, to consume away the stubbornness and rebellion of men. Punishment by fire is a beneficent one. "Our GOD is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). The basic purpose of this divine fire of God is to cleanse, purify, purge, temper and change. It is to rid of impurities, of filth, of undesirable elements. There is no better way to deal with filth than to deal with it by fire.

[IceDash]

No lol, I am not trying to win this "debate" I am trying to education myself. :grin:

Anyway I know about the "olum", I just noticed Furnace of fire and the gnashing of the teeth and I am trying to figure it out what it mean.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:.  The same things don't always work for everyone, but I'll share that when God began to show UR to me, I read, read, and read...started off with mostly J. Preston Eby.  His writings are somewhat detailed, but he answers many, many questions about UR. I recommend Thomas Kissinger...he has a very good, easily and quick to read book available online that I recommend...It has good, basic information about God's Plan for the Ages...It's called The Noble Berean, and it's here  http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/. 

God's blessing, James.

[jabcat]

Isaiah 54:4

μη φοβου οτι κατησχυνθης μηδε εντραπης οτι ωνειδισθης οτι αισχυνην αιωνιον επιληση και ονειδος της χηρειας σου ου μη μνησθηση

Fear not, because thou has been put to shame, neither be confounded, because thou was reproached: for thou shalt forget thy eternal/everlasting shame, and shalt no more at all remember the reproach of thy widowhood.

Isaiah 61:4

και οικοδομησουσιν ερημους αιωνιας εξηρημωμενας προτερον εξαναστησουσιν και καινιουσιν πολεις ερημους εξηρημωμενας εις γενεας

And they shall build the eternal/everlasting waste places, they shall raise up those that were before made desolate, and shall renew the desert cities, even those that had been desolate for many generations.

aionios can hardly mean eternal or everlasting in any of this verses

[bobf]

No lol, I am not trying to win this "debate" I am trying to education myself. :grin:

Anyway I know about the "olum", I just noticed Furnace of fire and the gnashing of the teeth and I am trying to figure it out what it mean.

That's good IceDash.  Educate yourself by asking lots of questions and pressing for an answer.

Gnashing of teeth means it won't be fun, just like it sounds.
Furnace of fire means judgment, consequences, reaping what was sown.

[sven]

Matt 13:47-50 "Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a dragnet, that was cast into the sea, and gathered some fish of every kind, which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach. They sat down, and gathered the good into containers, but the bad they threw away. So will it be in the end of the world. The angels will come forth, and separate the wicked from among the righteous, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."

Psalm 21:9

At the time of your appearing you will make them like a fiery furnace. In his wrath the LORD will swallow them up, and his fire will consume them. You will destroy their descendants from the earth, their posterity from mankind.

this seems to imply desctruction, not beeing kept alive in the fire

about "hell" in the Old Testament:

http://www.sheol-know.org/ (Annihilationist page)

[jabcat]

It seems to me God's punishments in the OT were about life/existence/punishment in the temporal...not about "eternity"... :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

Same for the NT I hope  :laughing7:

But as Sven noted it sounds like destruction.
Isn't this simply about God helping God defeating David enemies?
And not about 'religious affairs'?

[Nathan]

I've been debating on whether to respond on this thread or not . . . one thing about being a witness and a testimony . . . to take what another man says to another man .. . is nothing more than presenting an argument.  Very difficult to be affective in that kind of an approach.  But when something deep inside you clicks . . falls into place . . . an understanding that agrees inside you.  You don't know how or why, but you are sure it's true . . .and by true I don't mean right or wrong, but I mean it's where you are meant to be right now.  You know, that for you right now, this word manifesting in you, this truth that is ringing through your being is who you are today . . ."that" is when you can then become more affective at being a testimony.

It's not what your head has been able to make sense of.  It's what your heart has conceived in you.  These things that you're finding yourself drawn into, is what we call . . .a more intimate relationship . . . God is revealing "more" things of the nature of Christ to you and the Bible assists that. . . for me, there is a bit of a separation between the two . .between the written word . . .and the word written "in" you.  The written word (Bible) leads you and helps you learn how to hear the Word written "in" you.

But I do understand what you're trying to do here.  And I don't see anything wrong with it.  But all I'm saying . . and I think it's also what Jabcat is sharing as well is, when it becomes a part of you . . .it will be plainer and clearer for you to try to share with another.  

Many know their Bibles well and will always have a Scripture to challenge what's written "in" you.  Keep them at swords length . . .in other words don't let their abusive use of Scripture take away what God is planting in you.

As for the gnashing of teeth . . . one rule of thumb when understanding Scripture . . .always let Scripture interpret itself.  If you see a word being used here . . .to a bit of a search and see where it's used in other places before coming to your conclusions as to what it means "here".  If everyone would have done this, the idea of the gnashing of teeth being connected to hell wouldn't hold any water either . . .

Acts 7
51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth

They were in a fit of rage . . .because he went dimensional on them.  He shared their history of the faith, and then brought the message internally . . .and it caused them to get so mad, they ground their teeth . .they gritted their teeth . .they set their jaw . .it's a picture of stubbornness. And it brings forth death.

[Nathan]

Same for the NT I hope  :laughing7:

But as Sven noted it sounds like destruction.
Isn't this simply about God helping God defeating David enemies?
And not about 'religious affairs'?

It "is" about destruction . . .but when you take it "internally" you see that the destruction is not of men, but of man's nature within you.  All of the literal events that happened in Old Testament times, can be seen as the conflicts between your nature and God's nature "in" you.