Anti-Universalist arguments

[AshaMithra]

I tried to avoid getting into a debate with an infernalist on Reddit, but he wouldn?t leave me alone. He?s a born again Christian who was once an atheist, who has a Calvinist/Molinist perspective. As such, he is one of those who believes being saved means propensity to no longer sin, yet doesn?t believe in the importance of works vs faith. Faith plus is heresy to him. According to him, God wants to save everyone but won?t since God is omniscient and knows people will refuse him/Jesus.

To him, post mortem repentance is unbiblical heresy. I told him about the all will bow verse and he ignored it.

He said eternal punishment means levels of punishment based on severity of sins. That everyone?s works are judged and will be rewarded according to works, specifically and especially for unbelievers. I asked him why the gates are open.

He said that?s irrelevant because the city is in the new earth, which is where the unsaved would NOT be on. I thought that he was wrong because it says ?outside are the dogs...?. But maybe he?s referring to a point in time where all would be well for the saved, yet the damned would suffer in some kind of old earth that passed away? That doesn?t make any sense.

His other major argument is universalism gives a sinner no imperative to repent and change their life around this side of the grave. Once you?re dead, it?s forever too late. To him, saying that using fear and the threat of hell to convince people to convert  is bad is a tool of the deceiver.

He sees aionios and aidios as interchangeable most of the time.

He also said universalism is teaching a different gospel.

I?m not the type of person who remembers verses or page numbers well.

A Calvinist/Molinist fusion seems to be a clever way to eskew universalism. It?s like having your cake and eating it too.

Yet this same person is accusing universalists of bullying the infernalists. They?re so oppressed.

This person seems to identify well with being a corrupt Pharisee without realizing it. Evangelicals, baptists, Fundamentalists, and other Protestants have caused me much distress over the years, and this opened some wounds from the past. I think he borrows a lot of ideas from James Patrick Holding.

There was also another poster (Eastern Orthodox?) who said God has two wills. One where he wants all to be saved, and one where he realizes and wills not all will be saved. Doesn?t this make God double minded and capricious?

Eventually, I just said if hopeful universalism was enough for Edith Stein, von Balthasar, and Gregory of Nyssa, then it?s good enough for me.

How can I even argue with such people who never concede to anything and are never wrong in their minds.


Please note I don?t consider myself a full universalist or believer, but I?m moving away from agnosticism.

[jabcat]

(I've asked for this apostrophe/quotation/question mark issue to be looked at by IT.)

[Ross]

How can I even argue with such people who never concede to anything and are never wrong in their minds.

While learning the truth there will be many questions that come to mind.
There are so many varied opinions and doctrines.
So how to sort the wheat from the the chaff- the fact from the fiction?
Study the word and request the truth to be revealed by our Father through Jesus Christ.
Seems we are getting nearer to the  return of Christ, so there are many things drifting around to distract us from the truth.
Jesus came to set us free from the law and sin and death.
He was completely successful.
He has paid in full for all our mistakes before we were even born; that is how far in advance things were planned.
All this is His provision. We cannot add one iota to His work. Even if we do not yet believe He will not wipe us off the record.
The old " if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears how do you know the tree has fallen?"
Many people have heard about Christ. Done miracles in His name. Cast out demons in His name. Yet He categorically states that He NEVER knew them.
The master plan is successful. His love never fails. Just that many will not get to know this until they are resurrected and then brought to the knew beliefs and behavior with totally knew values. He will no longer be hidden away.
Whilst this appears strange, this actually highlights, for me, that the master plan is specific- not hit and miss like most doctrines insinuate.

Then there are references to these false ideas which Paul writes about.

2 THess 2;9-12 " ...The lawless one, whose presence shall be according to the inworking of Satan,
                             with all sorts of mighty work, signs, and wonders of falsehood,
                             and with all kinds of deceit of unrighteousness in them who are destroying themselves because they did not
                              welcome that they might be saved;
                             and for this reason God sent them an inworking of error, to the end that they should believe in this lie,
                              so that they all should be judged who would not believe in the truth,
                              but were well pleased with the unrighteousness."

1 Tim 4;1,2 " Howbeit the Spirit expressly says that in latter seasons some will revolt against the faith,
                     giving heed to seducing spirits and to the teachings of demons-
                     speaking lies in hypocrisy, cauterised by demons in their own conscience."

1 Tim 4;7 " But excuse yourself from the profane and silly myths; rather train yourself for godliness."

1 Tim 6;3,4 " If anyone does teach otherwise and does not adhere to healthful words of our Lord Jesus Christ,
                     and to the teaching that is according to godliness,
                      he is puffed up with conceit, understanding nothing, but has a sickly craving for speculations and fights about words,
                       out of which come envy and strife, slanders, and evil suspicions,
                      constant irritations among people who have been corrupted in their mind and have been robbed of the truth,
                      imagining that godliness is a means of gain."

2 Tim 2; 13,14 "  If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He is not able to deny Himself.
                          Remind them of these things, solemnly charging them before God not to be fighting about words,
                           which results in nothing beneficial but only ruins those who listen."

2 Tim 2;22,23 " S
                     

[Ross]

Sorry, got interrupted by hitting a wrong key;

2 Tim 2;22,23 " So flee from the youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace with those who call upon the Lord
                        with a pure heart.
                         But excuse yourself from the foolish and undisciplined questions, speculations, knowing that they breed quarrels."

2 Tim 3;1-5 " But be taking note of this-
                     that in the last days there will difficult times;
                     for the people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, ostentatious, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to parents,
                     ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, uncontrolled, untamed, not loving the good,
                     treacherous, reckless, conceited, loving pleasure rather than God,
                     having the appearance of godliness, but denying it's power;
                     and so avoid these people."

2 Tim 3;12,13 " Yes, and all who are determined to live in a godly manner will be persecuted;
                        whereas wicked men and howling impostors will force their way from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived."


Titus 3;9-11 " But avoid foolish questions and genealogies and strife and quarrels about the law, for they are harmful and useless.
                      Avoid the divisive person after a first and second warning , knowing that such a person is is perverted and sins,
                      being self-condemned."

This is all easy to say, but requires to lean on Christ in every regard, as His love is the only way.

Cheers   

[darryl]

i have same problems in Paltalk chatroom religion section ...they wont listen even when i read / post verses like this....Colossians 1:20, NIV: "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross...

Philippians 2:10 ►that
at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under
the earth, and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of
God the Father.

they seem blind, its sad...they insist on 'eternal conscious torment'

[darryl]

(I've asked for this apostrophe/quotation/question mark issue to be looked at by IT.)

thanks !..its  annoying as have to spend time erasing all the question marks sometimes