Annihilationism verses UR.

[Beloved Servant]

www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2700.0

[LS]

Thank you Beloved Servant   :thumbsup:

[Shadow]

Hi Brian - I am a believer in annihilation [which is MURDER], or eternal destruction.  I very much agree with you observation ... I too believe there are some who so embrace evil and so hate the Light, that they would rather be destroyed and it would not be loving at all to force them into His presence.

I can see where you are coming from here up to a point, however, these people were FORCED into existence in the first place, IOW no one CHOSE to be born, my own personal preference had I been given a choice would be never to have come into existence in the first place, so in some ways annihilation appeals to me more than UR, the thought of existing forever is scary and I've seen for myself that most people do not want to spend eternity praising God (myself included), however, that doesn't mean that we want to be tortured forever either, so the ED option gives those of us who don't want to live forever a way out

GOD knew what both, PHARAOH and HITLER would DO, and yet brought them forth ANYWAY... and then stood by, exempting Himself from intervention of their deeds...

"What is GOD's PURPOSE in creating the EARTH and this entire scenario in which we find ourselves?"

This is the problem I'm finding myself facing, even although what you propose is a trillion, billion times better than the so called "gospel of christendom", it doesn't explain why it had to be created this way in the first place, we are born without our will or consent into a wicked world of tears and suffering, whilst God stands back and watches it all unfold and does nothing, yet orthodox christendom wants to deflect the blame onto us, some even say that most of us were created as reprobrates (unelect) which means we are born into this world with a 95% chance of being in ET forever, is it any wonder that so many people have no desire to love this God when so many people preach that he hates most of us (most try to sugarcoat it, but some of us see straight through the veneers and disguises)

With all the evil and suffering I'm seeing in this world, is it any wonder that people don't believe in an all loving and benevolent God or want to spend an eternity with him, basically this life is a sham and a cruel farce anyway and we are just puppets on a string

The problem is there are many different christian viewpoints, how are we supposed to know which one is right, TBH none of them sound appealing to me personally, although I must admit that the universalist God is the best option of them all, I just don't see it though

From my studies, which include reading at this site for several years now. I honestly just don't believe that scripture teaches UR.

I'm inclined to agree with you there...however God being all knowing forsaw it all and allowed this to happen anyway

it is virtually inconceivable that God could or would annihilate a single object of His love, let alone the multitudes that annihilationism would suggest. If He did, then what Paul wrote was essentially meaningless puffery and platitude.

I don't think so. I believe the Father sent the Son into this world to save us... all of us... because He loves us... all of us.

This is just the thing, I don't believe he loves all of us...only a select few here and there

[willieH]

No murderer has eternal life in him sayeth Jesus.

Moses MURDERED... Paul MURDERED... too bad for them, eh T-tank?  :pitiful:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[thinktank]

This is just the thing, I don't believe he loves all of us...only a select few here and there

He does love all of us, he sent his son to die for the world. The problem is that we don't love him or his ways and man loves darkness more than light. But God's will is for all to be saved and none perish.

This age we live in is a world of darkness with satan as its god. We in this life choose between the tree of life, or the tree of evil. Many people in this world are held captive by Satan and God says that we go to preach the gospel and set people free. Even though there are some scriptures that talk about God setting this up and that etc. The scriptures are clear that God is looking for men to establish his kingdom upon the earth. Our prayer is 'As it is in heaven be upon the Earth.'

He comes and knocks at the door

"if any man will"

As saints we are comisioned to establish Gods rule with our weapons which be not carnal but those weapons we use are spiritual weapons, we establish the Earth by seeding the heavens with our prayers, we set the captives free, we feed the poor, we cast out demons. All this is not done in our own strength but, for 'apart from me you can't do nothing' in Christs strength.

Satan is not here by mistake he has a goal and that is to thief, kill, destroy, his cunning is so and so that he tries to outwit God, but God in his mercy takes that evil and turns it into good, because unlike the devil and men God is good and he came that we might have life and have it more in abundance.

We are here, we can either curse God or be thankfull that we have been given this glorious opportunity to know Jesus Christ as lord and saviour. In a zillion years all the holy angels will never be able to experience what life is like with sin. God said that which is forgiven most will love the most, our experience here will make us love God more than anthing else, for we tasted darkness and only by tasting it do we realize how much that we love God and his righteousness. The people rejoice when the righteous are in power, but have a heavy heart when the wicked are in power.

[willieH]

Take 10 Christians and 10 Of other religions and 10 [non-believing] Athiests or criminals  (pretty much the current general composition of the world... and dump them ALL in the middle of the Ocean... and see how many of these shall fight to remain alive...  I'm betting ALL, 30 of them, What number do you project? .

Not only that, but the 20 which do not believe in CHRIST, will FIGHT JUST as HARD as the "Christians", ...NOT just give in, and "DROWN" than continue to fight for LIFE, in the hope to go on living...  Mshock

And when the "CHRISTIAN boat" comes by... they shall say... "NO THANKS we would RATHER DIE than get on board..."  Mshock  Are you serious? dunno  Have you rationally thought this through?



Those are still average joeys though.

If the antichrist was in the sea though he would climb aboard the christian boat and then stab those aboard the christian boat. Wait for those 10 christians to come upon the boat, stab them.

wait for the aethists, then stab them

wait for the 10 from the other religions and then make them his slaves.
:icon_joker:

No murderer has eternal life in him sayeth Jesus.

All in all, a pretty grim set of thoughts with LITTLE, ...uh... ZERO GRACE amongst them, ...abounding... Rom 5:20  :sigh:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[thinktank]

Take 10 Christians and 10 Of other religions and 10 [non-believing] Athiests or criminals  (pretty much the current general composition of the world... and dump them ALL in the middle of the Ocean... and see how many of these shall fight to remain alive...  I'm betting ALL, 30 of them, What number do you project? .

Not only that, but the 20 which do not believe in CHRIST, will FIGHT JUST as HARD as the "Christians", ...NOT just give in, and "DROWN" than continue to fight for LIFE, in the hope to go on living...  Mshock

And when the "CHRISTIAN boat" comes by... they shall say... "NO THANKS we would RATHER DIE than get on board..."  Mshock  Are you serious? dunno  Have you rationally thought this through?



Those are still average joeys though.

If the antichrist was in the sea though he would climb aboard the christian boat and then stab those aboard the christian boat. Wait for those 10 christians to come upon the boat, stab them.

wait for the aethists, then stab them

wait for the 10 from the other religions and then make them his slaves.
:icon_joker:

No murderer has eternal life in him sayeth Jesus.

All in all, a pretty grim set of thoughts with LITTLE, ...uh... ZERO GRACE amongst them, ...abounding... Rom 5:20  :sigh:

...willieH  :cloud9:

What are you picking at?

Who's side are you on good or evil?

Christ said your either with me or against me.

It is not our duty to say whether God will have mercy upon the antichrist, that is his judgment.

The apostle Paul and Moses repented of their sins and that what the bible requires. If the antichrist repents then he also would be saved, for it is Gods will to save all men.

[Paul Hazelwood]

let alone the multitudes that annihilationism would suggest

Hi pickr - speaking for myself, I do not believe it will be "multitudes" who are utterly destroyed, but that's only my opinion.  I understand your reasoning, but for me the sheer number of passages that say the wicked are destroyed or perish or "are no more" is simply overwhelming.  I just wanted to clarify that on my part, and mean you no disrespect.   :mblush:

That's hard for me to get around as well.  I wish for UR but lean towards ED mainly because of the vast number of scriptures talking about the destruction of the wicked.  It certainly could figurative...and a purificiation process but I don't see a significant scriptural support for it.  If there is a purification process...it's not announced with trumpets in the Bible.  I will say this though...I think God does hide some of his intent.  I think God will reward the few that are diligent to seek it out.  If the UR guys are a group that uncovered God's great plan of salvation hidden under years of man made dogma...wow.

Saul of Tarsus was wicked,  is there any dispute in that?

One of the Christian fallacies is to depict Saul as a "special" case implying that  what happened Saul only happened to Saul and could not happen to any other being.   Why this is a fallacy is that then the account of Saul is rendered completely useless for anyone.

It would be a complete contradictioon to that assertion to say we can learn anything from Saul or the resulting PAUL since what God did was only for that one individual in all of creation.

However when we put away that ridiculousness and see what we can learn, we learn indeed that the Wicked ARE Destroyed and that is why SAUL will never enter the kingdom.

In short,  EVERYONE has a SAUL.

[Cardinal]

Saul of Tarsus was annihilated.

i love it!!

:cloud9: Me too, LOL..... :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

In short,  EVERYONE has a SAUL.

:cloud9:  :thumbsup: Yes, they do, er, PAUL.....looks like you've already had the name change  :winkgrin: Blessings.....

[LS]

Saul of Tarsus was wicked,  is there any dispute in that?

One of the Christian fallacies is to depict Saul as a "special" case implying that  what happened Saul only happened to Saul and could not happen to any other being.   Why this is a fallacy is that then the account of Saul is rendered completely useless for anyone.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying ... I don't dispute that Saul of Tarsus was wicked.  I'm not sure what you mean by Christian fallicies depicting Saul as a special case?  In what way?  I'm asking for clarification/understanding, not to quarrel  :bigGrin:

[willieH]

What are you picking at?

Who's side are you on good or evil?

I can ask you the same question...  :dontknow:  I am on the side of GOOD that SO LOVES the WORLD...

Christ said your either with me or against me.

Again... If you believe SIN abounded to a greater degree, wheresoever GRACE abounded, you then indicate "who" you are "for" and "who" you are against"... I am for GRACE which is far more prevalent and POWERFUL than ANY DEGREE of AMOUNT of SIN... which TOOK it AWAY from the WORLD -- John 1:29

It is not our duty to say whether God will have mercy upon the antichrist, that is his judgment.

There is no such "being" as "antichrist", and therefore no "his judgment" exists...

It is the SPIRIT which is in OPPOSITION to TRUTH, for CHRIST is the TRUTH -- John 14:6 -- and in OPPOSITION to LIFE for CHRIST is LIFE [annhilation]

Anyone which poses opposition to these stated in the WORD about the WORD, is of the spirit of antichrist ["ANTI-TRUTH"]... MANY (not few) "believers" which call CHRIST "Lord" and COME in His NAME... shall bear INIQUITY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- falsely coming IN, and "doing" works, ...IN that NAME!

The apostle Paul and Moses repented of their sins and that what the bible requires. If the antichrist repents then he also would be saved, for it is Gods will to save all men.

FIRST --- As I said, there is no "person" called the "antichrist".  This is a theological invention.

SECOND --- It is more than just God's WILL, the word as is written in 2 Pet 3:9 "not WILLING that ANY PERISH"... is BOULEMA [#G1014] which means RESOLVE / INTENT...

THIRD --- Though I certainly agree that Moses and Paul "repented" of their sins, there is no Scriptural references of this taking place.   :dontknow: 

If you have these Scriptures I would appreciate you providing them for me, for my future reference, thanks.

I was actually commenting on the firm statement made of your words which lacked a Scriptural reference (no worries, I have provided it below):

No murderer has eternal life in him sayeth Jesus.

Btw... the word AIONIOS -- which appears in -- 1 John 3:15 -- is not valid as has been translated in this verse and elsewhere, into the English word "ETERNAL"... rather is a derivitive of AION (which in its appearances, has several instances of containing beginning and end), and like its parent word, AIONIOS is also concerned with TIME...

AIONIOS is used in Scripture -- Jude 7 -- as having a beginning and end in describing the FIRE which destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, which had both a BEGINNING (Sodom & Gomorrah were not always burning) and an END (the fire which destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, is no longer burning)

The complete definition of the word ETERNAL also contains the designation of "WITHOUT BEGINNING" as well as "without end"...

That no man can comprehend HOW anything is "WITHOUT BEGINNING", disqualifies his using of the word ETERNAL which he/she cannot fully comprehend... 

:Peace:

...willieH   :cool:

[jabcat]

Brother LS, I'm not PaulH, though I have been Saul.  :bigGrin:

PaulH may still get back with you, but I'd like to share what I get from it.

Saul/Paul is "common" to us all, in that, anyone who has a saving encounter with the Savior loses the "old man"...(new creature, all things made new).  Though Saul/Paul was certainly a dramatic example of that, still, all saved will experience the same process;  being brought to a Divine appointment by being sought out and drawn (Gr., dragged) to the Savior; and dying to self and miraculousely being made new by the power of the cross and blood.

God bless, James.

[LS]

Saul/Paul is "common" to us all, in that, anyone who has a saving encounter with the Savior loses the "old man"...(new creature, all things made new).  Though Saul/Paul was certainly a dramatic example of that, still, all saved will experience the same process;  being brought to a Divine appointment by being sought out and drawn (Gr., dragged) to the Savior; and dying to self and miraculousely being made new by the power of the cross and blood.

God bless, James.

Thank you - well-stated and I agree with all you said. 

[jabcat]

Ur welcome.  :bigGrin:

I was looking through some posts, and came across this one.  I also am not "arguing", but presenting something to think about (I have thought about the ED issue from time to time);

Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

Scripture IS clear that death will be destroyed. When and how? When it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  What/who else goes into the Lake of Fire? Those whose names are not found written in the book of life.

IMHO, if death is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, so are those who are also thrown in. No where does it say that all people "go through" the Lake of Fire, so I do not believe the argument some make that "this life" is the lake of fire.

If (since) death will be destroyed;  yet if people are annihilated, doesn't it somehow seem that keeps death "alive"/active?  That it's not really been overcome ("the last enemy to be destroyed is death"), but that it's been "eternally" implemented?  Because the absence of life is death, right, and Jesus came to bring life?  Thinking....

[jabcat]

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/adam_succeeded_will_christ.pdf

[thinktank]

Ur welcome.  :bigGrin:

I was looking through some posts, and came across this one.  I also am not "arguing", but presenting something to think about (I have thought about the ED issue from time to time);

Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

Scripture IS clear that death will be destroyed. When and how? When it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  What/who else goes into the Lake of Fire? Those whose names are not found written in the book of life.

IMHO, if death is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, so are those who are also thrown in. No where does it say that all people "go through" the Lake of Fire, so I do not believe the argument some make that "this life" is the lake of fire.

If (since) death will be destroyed;  yet if people are annihilated, doesn't it somehow seem that keeps death "alive"/active?  That it's not really been overcome ("the last enemy to be destroyed is death"), but that it's been "eternally" implemented?  Because the absence of life is death, right, and Jesus came to bring life?  Thinking....

Before death is destroyed, it still reigns even during the 1000 millenium peace, when a man will live to a ripe old age of over a 100, but will still die.

But after the millenium is finished, satan who has the power of death is thrown into the fire and so after ward in the new heavens and earth, new jerusalem coming down from heaven REv 22
The people are now allowed access to the tree of life, the same kind of tree that Adam orginally had access to but choose the tree of knowledge first. So with the tree there is no more death, for the people of Earth.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi LS...  :happygrin:

I appreciate all of the gentle replies!  I am aware of this line of thought ...

:cloud9: The wicked are removed, but it's the wicked things in us (tares planted while we slept-Adam went to sleep but was not awakened until Christ). Judgment begins in the house of the Lord. Know ye not ye are the temple.....Blessings....

  :thumbsup:  Anything not of God destroyed, as by fire, so the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.

... and truthfully, I can see how some passages that speak of destroying the wicked could mean the wicked "things" within and not the person.  (I don't think it's a given, but I can understand that view).

But there are other more forceful passages that to me, refer to the individual. The very soul can die:

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

What of 1 Cor 11:15, LS?  :dontknow:

and similarly: Jas 5:20  he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death

The FIRST RESURRECTION is LIFE in CHRIST... we can be found IN HIM, before our death in the FLESH...  The SOUL that sins, DIES... the SOUL that is found IN CHRIST is become part of (the 1st) RESURRECTION of LIFE... for CHRIST is LIFE -- John 14:6

ALL will be RESURRECTED, yet not before DEATH occurs in the FLESH -- John 5:28-29

This (to me) is clearly speaking of the person, not a thing within:

Proverbs 6:12-15
12 A scoundrel and villain,
      who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,
      signals with his feet
      and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
      he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
      he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.

How do you see this to coincide with --- John 1:29 -- LS?  

How about 2 Cor 5:19?  The WORD states that SIN is NOT IMPUTED [inventory held in account/blame] to the WORLD [Kosmos/Creation]

Without ADDING or TAKING away from what these verses state... Please explain... thanks.

And passages such as this specify certain people will obtain resurrection, but it doesn't say all will and I think it is speaking of individuals and not things within us (as those things we wouldn't expect to give in marriage, etc):
Luk 20:35  But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luk 20:36  Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Where in these verses do you find those mentioned as "RESURRECTED" --- are CONFINED to those who BELIEVE during their lives in the FLESH?  Btw, ...the person questioning CHRIST in this passage, was an unbeliever in the resurrection -- Luke 20:27  :dontknow:

CHRIST ...IS... the "RESURRECTION" -- John 11:25

The "RESURRECTION" concerns ALL, ...and ALL are Children of the "RESURRECTION"... so ALL shall be RESURRECTED -- Rev 1:7 -- Rev 5:13 -- John 5:28-29 -- For CHRIST tasted DEATH for EVERY MAN -- Heb 2:9 -- 1 Tim 2:6 --- not just those which GOD before ordained to believe -- Eph 2:10 -- during their course within the walk in the FLESH of this life...

These are just some examples to explain why I don't see it the way you do.   I want to be respectful of this board and its members - I have learned a lot reading here and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss a few things with you all.  :HeartThrob:

Now you have some things which have been presented to you as well, which question your observation as well...

Might I close with a few questions for you...

(1)  CHRIST was sent to SAVE the WORLD ...did He succeed or fail to do so?  :Chinscratch:

(2)   If ALL are not saved, and He DIED for ALL... how can it be said that whatever portion dedicated to the UNSAVED was not given IN VAIN?  :Chinscratch:

(3)   If CHRIST was SENT NOT to CONDEMN, and did NOT CONDEMN, during His ministry on Earth (which also means the sender does not desire "condemnation")... and CHRIST does not change -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 -- neither does the sender [YHVH God] -- Mal 3:6 -- and SIN is NOT IMPUTED [held in account/blame] concerning the WORLD -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- and CHRIST "took away" the SIN of the WORLD -- John 1:29...

Wherein is found CONDEMNATION?  :Chinscratch:

(4)   There was a 2500 YEAR PERIOD in which the LAW, which indicates TRANSGRESSION -- 1 John 3:4 -- then how may SIN be laid to the account of all which preceeded the entrance of the LAW...  :Chinscratch:  And,

(5)  How is GOD completely and PERFECTLY IMPARTIAL toward MEN (Acts 10:34 & 9 other verses), if

• ...some were completely WITHOUT the LAW (ALL men prior to Moses)
• ...some under the LAW [Jews] others NOT -- for they did not have the guidance of it [Gentiles]
• ...some were relieved of its accusations by GRACE [believers]?  :Chinscratch:

(6)  Why was Adam not warned by  YHVH God, of either "ANNHILATION" or "ET/hell" as his destiny, and only DEATH noted to him for disobedience to the Command?  :Chinscratch:

(7)  In what way can you consider ANNHILATION or ET to present a PERFECT [COMPLETE] result of the MISSION which CHRIST was sent to accomplish... In what way can EITHER of these be considered COMPLETE? --- (Keep in mind that YHVH is PERFECT... so anything He is involved in must become COMPLETE/PERFECT for HE IS PERFECT -- Matt 5:48)  :Chinscratch:

Thanks for your answers ahead of time...  :ty:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[thinktank]

Again... If you believe SIN abounded to a greater degree, wheresoever GRACE abounded, you then indicate "who" you are "for" and "who" you are against"... I am for GRACE which is far more prevalent and POWERFUL than ANY DEGREE of AMOUNT of SIN... which TOOK it AWAY from the WORLD -- John 1:29

Me too, that's why I'm on a forum that teaches Universal salvation, the only difference between me and you is that I belive as scripture regularly implies that the road to life is narrow and it is only by Gods love that we can hope to survive, whereas you think that there is zero danger in life and all is well. That is fine if you want to believe that, but to me the word teaches us to be "carefull" not carefree and that there is a "real danger" that God's grace is not be to taken causually. For did he not say

Fear him that is able to destroy both soul and body and hell.
There is a sin unto death
He that taketh the words from this book will not take part from the tree of life

Please don't bother responding to these verses with various explanation, for I am aware of them. I am highlighting the fact that life is not a game, and we cannot go around and just kill everyone and think that everything will be hunkydorry with God, for that is naivity, not grace.
Every soul is precious to God and does not delight in the cruelty to the little ones.

Maybe your like one of these wise men who just sit's back and grin as the world unfolds and Gods plan unfolds, but as for me I would rather be carefull of danger and I think this is how most people react.



There is no such "being" as "antichrist", and therefore no "his judgment" exists...

I have many scriptures which prove he does exist. The term "antichrist" is the popular way in which people know him as. The original name for him is "the man of sin" and "The abomination of desolation" and "the beast". They call him antichrist for he goes against Christians, and even opposes Christ himself at the battle of armageddon, therefore the term "antichrist" is a fitting term for him, even though its not mentioned in the bible, other than the spirit of antichrist, which is a very different topic.



It is the SPIRIT which is in OPPOSITION to TRUTH, for CHRIST is the TRUTH -- John 14:6 -- and in OPPOSITION to LIFE for CHRIST is LIFE [annhilation]

Anyone which poses opposition to these stated in the WORD about the WORD, is of the spirit of antichrist ["ANTI-TRUTH"]... MANY (not few) "believers" which call CHRIST "Lord" and COME in His NAME... shall bear INIQUITY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- falsely coming IN, and "doing" works, ...IN that NAME!


From the way I've read that, it indicates that if there are doctrines or teachings which are incorrect, then that means that person who teaches those incorrect doctrines has the spirit of the antichrist, am I correct?

This is not scriptural, and also a dangerous way to make enemies of friends. For by your own words you condemn yourself, for you are one who does not belive in Satan the devil, even though Christ teaches about that being and also the old testament does. Also a lot of people here on UR forum belives he exists. By not beliving in Satan your are going against the word and by your own words means that you have the spirit of the antichrist, in fact you could even say from your point that every single Christian on the planet has the spirit of the antichrist for no one holds all the truth, even you. God looketh upon the heart not on outward appearances.

What the word teaches is that those who deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh has the spirit of the antichrist.
If you look at history it started with a movement called gnocistism, which teachings then spread into other religions such as Islam, who deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh or to be more blunt those who deny that God has come in the flesh.

The people who did many works in his name are not people like annhilationists, or even ET preachers, even though they might teach these things, but those pastors who come in as wolves among the sheep. Notice that Christ says to them 'depart from me, I never knew you'

Not once did Christ know these people, therefore they must be those people who have come into the church with other motives, the biggest one probably to make money, or to become popular, a spirit of pride or the lust of the flesh, these be their motivations, not Christ.

In order to cast out devils you don't even need to know Jesus, you just need to have faith in his name and these people do that, but Christ does not know them and never knew them.


THIRD --- Though I certainly agree that Moses and Paul "repented" of their sins, there is no Scriptural references of this taking place.   

If you have these Scriptures I would appreciate you providing them for me, for my future reference, thanks

I cannot find any, but will let you know.

I was actually commenting on the firm statement made of your words which lacked a Scriptural reference (no worries, I have provided it below):

Thank you.

No murderer has eternal life in him sayeth Jesus.

Btw... the word AIONIOS -- which appears in -- 1 John 3:15 -- is not valid as has been translated in this verse and elsewhere, into the English word "ETERNAL"... rather is a derivitive of AION (which in its appearances, has several instances of containing beginning and end), and like its parent word, AIONIOS is also concerned with TIME...

I think you missing the point here  that what Jesus said is true.

Lets change that verse and see if it makes sound scripture


No sinner has eternal life in him , sayeth Jesus
Isn't this truth?

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through christ.


God bless.

[Beloved Servant]

103 REASONS TO BELIEVE IN GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY
AND
THE SALVATION OF ALL

(Scriptures compiled by Elwin R. Roach)

 
  www.godfire.net/reasons.html

[LS]

Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.
If (since) death will be destroyed;  yet if people are annihilated, doesn't it somehow seem that keeps death "alive"/active?  That it's not really been overcome ("the last enemy to be destroyed is death"), but that it's been "eternally" implemented?  Because the absence of life is death, right, and Jesus came to bring life?  Thinking....

Hmmmm ... interesting way to consider it.   Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think it's part of God's plan in this world; but it will have served its purpose and will have no place in the next.

I don't think that some people "being" dead (annihilated) keeps death alive/active, though.  My belief is that when death is destroyed, the act of dying will never again touch any life - death will never again take a life. Since "death" is destroyed, so also dying will be.  

Whatever/whomever had been destroyed prior to that no longer exists. It isn't continually dying ... it is simply non-existent.

imho

[shawn]

Ur welcome.  :bigGrin:

I was looking through some posts, and came across this one.  I also am not "arguing", but presenting something to think about (I have thought about the ED issue from time to time);

Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

Scripture IS clear that death will be destroyed. When and how? When it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  What/who else goes into the Lake of Fire? Those whose names are not found written in the book of life.

IMHO, if death is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, so are those who are also thrown in. No where does it say that all people "go through" the Lake of Fire, so I do not believe the argument some make that "this life" is the lake of fire.

If (since) death will be destroyed;  yet if people are annihilated, doesn't it somehow seem that keeps death "alive"/active?  That it's not really been overcome ("the last enemy to be destroyed is death"), but that it's been "eternally" implemented?  Because the absence of life is death, right, and Jesus came to bring life?  Thinking....

I think it depends when death is overcome.  If God passes judgement and some perish...after judgement death will be no more.

[jabcat]

What do you guys think of Collossians 1:20?  The word 'all' has been discussed here many times, and there's been evidence presented that it's a totally encompassing word in the originals.  Do you think God reconciling all through Jesus could mean really some were still to be lost?

[LS]

What do you guys think of Collossians 1:20?  The word 'all' has been discussed here many times, and there's been evidence presented that it's a totally encompassing word in the originals.  Do you think God reconciling all through Jesus could mean really some were still to be lost?

Hi jabcat - here is Colossians 1:20:
Col 1:20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

I completely believe in universal reconciliation, but I do not believe in universal salvation.  "Reconciliation" and "salvation" are often used interchangeably and I don't think they should be - they are two different things.

Keep reading that passage in Colossians:
Col 1:20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away  from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

I don't have it all settled in my mind and I am still studying, so I'm sorry if this isn't a very complete answer. But I completely believe Col. 1:20 is true, and in my mind it doesn't equal universal salvation. 

[LS]

I think it depends when death is overcome.  If God passes judgement and some perish...after judgement death will be no more.

:thumbsup: