Annihilationism verses UR.

[willieH]

One thing I really like Willi, that I believe is OFTEN (if not always overlooked,  is that "no one can confess Jesus as Lord except IN the Holy Spirit".  Not BY, as the AV and others state.  It's IN the Holy Spirit.  To me that's a strong point that's often not seen.  :thumbsup:

I agree brother... Many overlook that Scripture says that ONLY by the HOLY SPIRIT, is one able to CONFESS JESUS CHRIST as LORD -- 1 Cor 12:2

So such a confession is an ACT of GOD upon a man's lips, brought forth by the Heart which He has also CHANGED...  the SAVING confession made, is not generated by US... we need the HOLY SPIRIT to act upon us... Our lips are frozen without Him...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[shawn]

Hello Ls nice to meet you, the thing that confuses me about that part is that those who have done good will be given life. The question is how does one do good? Is it belief in Jesus or does it mean things such as people who help out their neighbour. The problem is, if people are saved by their good works, not belief in Jesus, then it contradicts what other passages say in the bible.

I did belive at one point that the lake of fire were for the demons and angels who were/are in the abyss, (the same book talks about angels chained up in the abyss) for Jesus says, 'no ye not that ye shall judge angels' but as you said the passage does indicate that it is man who are being judged.

It's very nice to meet you too :)

I don't think that works save us, but I do believe our works factor in to how we are judged.

My own personal belief is that all believers are saved, John 3:16

I also believe that Romans 2:11-16 explain that those who haven't heard of God but still follow the law written on their hearts, will be judged accordingly.  I think this judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46.  I think this is judgment of "the world," people who didn't know Jesus.

But still, I think there are those who embrace evil and turn themselves over to it, and those are not saved.

That's a basic outline of my beliefs, if that helps. 

This is personally how I see scripture on this subject.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi LS... :hithere:

:Peace:

Hi Brian - I am a believer in annihilation [which is MURDER], or eternal destruction.  I very much agree with you observation ... I too believe there are some who so embrace evil and so hate the Light, that they would rather be destroyed and it would not be loving at all to force them into His presence.

FIRST --- Name one person (that is a Christian) that you personally know that was FORCED -- to BOW at the knee and CONFESS with the tongue? 

I have been a believer for 34 years and have been involved in MANY, MANY ministries, meetings, conferences, and seminars and NEVER ONCE, have I ever witnessed GOD "forcing" men and women to their knees... and prying their lips open with the name of JESUS CHRIST...  Have you?  :laughing7:  So if NO Christians have ever been "forced" to do these things, what makes you think it shall be otherwise for the rest of humanity, as they do this? -- Phil 2:10-11 -- Isaiah 45:23 -- Rom 14:11

SECOND --- You say that the "EVIL" ones would rather DIE than grab an opportunity to LIVE? How unrealistic! --- I BEG TO DIFFER:

Take 10 Christians and 10 Of other religions and 10 [non-believing] Athiests or criminals  (pretty much the current general composition of the world... and dump them ALL in the middle of the Ocean... and see how many of these shall fight to remain alive...  I'm betting ALL, 30 of them, What number do you project? . 

Not only that, but the 20 which do not believe in CHRIST, will FIGHT JUST as HARD as the "Christians", ...NOT just give in, and "DROWN" than continue to fight for LIFE, in the hope to go on living...  :mshock: 

And when the "CHRISTIAN boat" comes by... they shall say... "NO THANKS we would RATHER DIE than get on board..."  :mshock:  Are you serious? :dunno:  Have you rationally thought this through?  :Chinscratch:

ALL have embraced EVIL to different degrees dependent upon country lived in, parents, environment, wealth, poverty, etc...  And NOT ONE has ever just dropped their EVIL without the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, ...done by JESUS CHRIST -- Heb 12:2 -- while amidst that "evil"...  :dontknow:

"Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Whoever lives by the TRUTH was FOREORDAINED by GOD to do so:  Eph 2:10 -- not because they woke up one day, and out the "clear blue sky" they decided to --- stop chasing women, smoking, drinking, cussing, writing bad checks, ...whatever...  :dontknow: -- Get real!

I didn't come here to argue with people, but I would be happy to discuss this and clarify what I believe if anyone has questions. 

I hope that's really the case, [new brother/sister?] LS... for the Scripture PLAINLY states that coming to GOD is NOT generated "of MAN" nor is it within HIS ABILITY to do so -------------> John 6:44 -- Rom 12:3 -- Heb 12:2 -- Matt 11:27 -- and until GOD generates these things by LEADING us to His WORD -- Rom 2:4 -- then the HEART of Man remains, the most deceitful thing in existence within the Creation -- Jer 17:9 --  :dontknow:

As the "bubblegum" thief, ...ERRONEOUSLY thinks he has the right to "judge" Hitler... when both ("little bubblegum sins", and  "BIG MURDER SINS") EACH had their individual parts in the Hammer & nails which Put CHRIST to death for those SINS... :rolleye:

To observe HITLERS act in burning to death the JEWS [ANNHILATION of them] as "SIN"

And then propose the very same ACT = burning to death the JEWS and everyone else which has not "believed" [ANNHILATION of them] as "HOLY"

Is nothing but DOUBLE TALK.  (btw, I was an SDA for 5 YEARS, which teach this AWFUL and  dispicable doctrine (which is nothing but an "abbreviated or shortened" version of ET/Hell) ...

Which was DISPICABLE and ATROCIOUS when Hitler MURDERED... and contains the very SAME MURDEROUS -- ATROUCIOUSNESS" -- in proposing GOD shall do it...  :thumbdown:

These kind of teachings are why MOST of the World does not regard Christianity as from and OF, ...GOD...  :sigh:  Thinking it to be DOUBLETALK and HYPOCRISY... which, in fact, ...it IS...   :pitiful:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[thinktank]

willieH: Hi LS... :hithere:

:Peace:

Is nothing but DOUBLE TALK.  (btw, I was an SDA for 5 YEARS, which teach this AWFUL and  dispicable doctrine (which is nothing but an "abbreviated or shortened" version of ET/Hell) ...

Which was DISPICABLE and ATROCIOUS when Hitler MURDERED... and contains the very SAME MURDEROUS -- ATROUCIOUSNESS" -- in proposing GOD shall do it...  :thumbdown:

These kind of teachings are why MOST of the World does not regard Christianity as from and OF, ...GOD...  :sigh:  Thinking it to be DOUBLETALK and HYPOCRISY... which, in fact, ...it IS...   :pitiful:

Out of interest how come you say then that God set up Hitlers government, aren't you preaching the very same thing that you are against :dontknow:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :happygrin:

willieH: Hi LS... :hithere:

:Peace:

... Is nothing but DOUBLE TALK.  (btw, I was an SDA for 5 YEARS, which teach this AWFUL and  dispicable doctrine (which is nothing but an "abbreviated or shortened" version of ET/Hell) ...

Which was DISPICABLE and ATROCIOUS when Hitler MURDERED... and contains the very SAME MURDEROUS -- ATROUCIOUSNESS" -- in proposing GOD shall do it...  :thumbdown:

These kind of teachings are why MOST of the World does not regard Christianity as from and OF, ...GOD...  :sigh:  Thinking it to be DOUBLETALK and HYPOCRISY... which, in fact, ...it IS...   :pitiful:

Out of interest how come you say then that God set up Hitlers government, aren't you preaching the very same thing that you are against :dontknow:

It cracks me up  :laughing7: and yet, ...saddens me at the same time  :crywipe:  ...How the Christian community, which proudly and OFTEN barks "God is IN CONTROL"...   Turn their other [double-talking] face to the world, and agree with their [the world's] confusion (even Athiests percieve they have "free will"), by saying the opposite:  "but we ALL have FREE WILL... "

GOD cannot be "IN CONTROL" (as the CONTROLLING entity) and men also maintain "FREE WILL" (as the CONTROLLING entity)...

If you and I are both IN the car, and I have the steering wheel in my hands, and am  steering the car...  YOU cannot claim that you are also "steering" the car, simply upon the basis that you are IN the car... :rolleye:  Only ONE can steer the car... Only ONE is "IN CONTROL"...

GOD is SOVEREIGN over ALL things in His Creation... And because of HIS PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of them and THEIR PURPOSE within that FOREKNOWLEDGE, There is PURPOSE that is found in EVERYTHING which occurs under the sun -- Ecc 3:1-8  Repetition of the VAIN ATROCITIES enacted by men, ...by GOD is NOT His agenda... PEACE, LOVE, FORGIVENESS and GRACE are His agenda...

ALL the doings of MAN (aside from CHRIST -- 1 Cor 3:11-15) ...are VANITY... Ecc 1:14 -- ALL VANITY shall have its LIVING moment in this realm, then disappear as a living entity, yet remain as EXPERIENTIAL knowledge forever... for GOD's KNOWS GOOD and EVIL -- Gen 3:19 -- and GOD is an UNCHANGING entity.

Any mouth that preaches that the acts of HITLER were HEINOUS and ATROCIOUS, and then also preaches that GOD shall REPEAT them [the vain activities of men]... is attaching the VAIN act of the finite and SINFUL HITLER (when GOD is concluding the acts of men = ANNHILATION), to the HOLY ETERNAL one as equally VAIN... And thereby cannot see the Creator, nor His PURPOSE...

GOD sets up [ordains] ALL GOVERNMENTS:

Rom 13:1 -- Let EVERY soul be subject unto the HIGHER powers.  For there is NO POWER but OF GOD... the POWERS that BE are ORDAINED of GOD...

Which included raising PHARAOH -- Rom 9:17 -- to not only IMPRISON the JEWS (continuing to bring death to many of them within their SLAVERY) but, was also on SEVERAL OCCASIONS, involved in Pharoah's OBSTINATE refusals to release those PRISONERS (some of which were continuing to DIE in their SLAVERY)...  :dontknow:

PHARAOH is the picture of MAN ...enslaved... by SIN... which [pharoah/sin] is ORDAINED by GOD to enslave...  :dontknow:  It is DELIVERANCE from the ENSLAVEMENT, that indeed GLORIFIED GOD... and neither PHARAOH [the imprisoner] or MOSES [the cry to be FREED] decided WHEN and HOW that DELIVERANCE would occur...  Rather, ALL of this was within the DECISION of YHVH...

GOD knew what both, PHARAOH and HITLER would DO, and yet brought them forth ANYWAY... and then stood by, exempting Himself from intervention of their deeds...

Why pray-tell would you deduce was HIS thinking?  Or is it your thought, that He brought them forth to ANGER Himself?   :mshock:

Do you do this?  Create scenarios to anger yourself?  This consideration itself is foolish... there is more to it than that, ...do you know what it is, T-tank?

Btw... no rush, but ...I have yet to read your answer to my question of you in the "LOF" thread:

"What is GOD's PURPOSE in creating the EARTH and this entire scenario in which we find ourselves?"   :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[pickr]

If God were going to liquidate some number of people in the end, you'd be hard-pressed, I think, to square such an idea with Paul's definition of Godly love.

When the apostle says that love "never fails", he's not referring to failure as we generally use that English word today. What he means is that Godly love never fails to be in effect or in action. In short, Godly love, once directed, never ceases. When you couple that with the other ways Paul describes love... that it is patient, kind, not out for itself but out for the one who is loved, etc.... it is virtually inconceivable that God could or would annihilate a single object of His love, let alone the multitudes that annihilationism would suggest. If He did, then what Paul wrote was essentially meaningless puffery and platitude.

I don't think so. I believe the Father sent the Son into this world to save us... all of us... because He loves us... all of us.

Blessings,

Andy

[LS]

let alone the multitudes that annihilationism would suggest

Hi pickr - speaking for myself, I do not believe it will be "multitudes" who are utterly destroyed, but that's only my opinion.  I understand your reasoning, but for me the sheer number of passages that say the wicked are destroyed or perish or "are no more" is simply overwhelming.  I just wanted to clarify that on my part, and mean you no disrespect.   :mblush:

[shawn]

let alone the multitudes that annihilationism would suggest

Hi pickr - speaking for myself, I do not believe it will be "multitudes" who are utterly destroyed, but that's only my opinion.  I understand your reasoning, but for me the sheer number of passages that say the wicked are destroyed or perish or "are no more" is simply overwhelming.  I just wanted to clarify that on my part, and mean you no disrespect.   :mblush:

That's hard for me to get around as well.  I wish for UR but lean towards ED mainly because of the vast number of scriptures talking about the destruction of the wicked.  It certainly could figurative...and a purificiation process but I don't see a significant scriptural support for it.  If there is a purification process...it's not announced with trumpets in the Bible.  I will say this though...I think God does hide some of his intent.  I think God will reward the few that are diligent to seek it out.  If the UR guys are a group that uncovered God's great plan of salvation hidden under years of man made dogma...wow.

[LS]

That's hard for me to get around as well.  I wish for UR but lean towards ED mainly because of the vast number of scriptures talking about the destruction of the wicked.  It certainly could figurative...and a purificiation process but I don't see a significant scriptural support for it.  If there is a purification process...it's not announced with trumpets in the Bible.  I will say this though...I think God does hide some of his intent.  I think God will reward the few that are diligent to seek it out.  If the UR guys are a group that uncovered God's great plan of salvation hidden under years of man made dogma...wow.

From my studies, which include reading at this site for several years now. I honestly just don't believe that scripture teaches UR.  There is one passage that leaves the door for UR open, to me - and surprisingly it isn't one that I've ever seen people use - but I'm happy to leave that door open. 

[jabcat]

and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.  Col 1:20   :bigGrin:

[peacemaker]

When one door closes, another opens; but often we look at the
closed door and do not see the one which was opened for us. :coffee2:

[peacemaker]

(http://dl10.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1560/1560000qssjerxaq2.jpg)
Dog Gone It!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The wicked are removed, but it's the wicked things in us (tares planted while we slept-Adam went to sleep but was not awakened until Christ). Judgment begins in the house of the Lord. Know ye not ye are the temple.....Blessings....

[Molly]

Who are the wicked?


Malachi 4
The Great Day of the LORD
1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.



"evildoers" [all that do]  "wickedly"

H7564
רשׁעה
rish‛âh
rish-aw'
Feminine of H7562; wrong (especially moral): - fault, wickedly (-ness).


H7562
רשׁע
resha‛
reh'-shah
From H7561; a wrong (especially moral): - iniquity, wicked(-ness).


H7561
רשׁע
râsha‛
raw-shah'
A primitive root; to be (causatively do or declare) wrong; by implication to disturb, violate: - condemn, make trouble, vex, be (commit, deal, depart, do) wicked (-ly, -ness).



Jeremiah 50:31
Behold, I am against thee, O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee.



Proverbs 10:30
The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.


"the wicked"

H7563
רשׁע
râshâ‛
raw-shaw'
From H7561; morally wrong; concretely an (actively) bad person: -  + condemned, guilty, ungodly, wicked (man), that did wrong.




"inhabit" [the earth]

H7931
שׁכן
shâkan
shaw-kan'
A primitive root (apparently akin (by transmutation) to H7901 through the idea of lodging; compare H5531 and H7925); to reside or permanently stay (literally or figuratively): - abide, continue, (cause to, make to) dwell (-er), have habitation, inhabit, lay, place, (cause to) remain, rest, set (up).



Psalm 37:20

20But the wicked will perish;
   the enemies of the LORD are like the glory of the pastures;
   they vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

[jabcat]

:cloud9: The wicked are removed, but it's the wicked things in us (tares planted while we slept-Adam went to sleep but was not awakened until Christ). Judgment begins in the house of the Lord. Know ye not ye are the temple.....Blessings....

:thumbsup:  Anything not of God destroyed, as by fire, so the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.

I also believe many, many verses that are used to attempt to show God's "eternal" punishments (including ET or even ED) actually are taken out of context.  I believe many of those verses in the OT, as well as even some in the New, have to do with temporal, earthly punishments and consequences, rather than "eternal" ones.  Many of them having to do with the wicked being removed, destroyed, etc. have to do with different periods in Israel's history, including even the judgments of 70 AD.  

IMO, we the church, often make terrible doctrinal messes by ignoring contexts and primary intended audiance, while building doctrines on things the scriptures really aren't saying.  Why, if we're not careful, we could end up with a whole lot of different denominations or something.  What?  Oh, never mind.   :mblush:

Though it's not easy and we need it revealed to us, IMO, we need to always attempt to carefully rightly divide the Word of Truth.   :2c:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :grin: Exactly.....there's a microcosm and a macrocosm to the Word, and we have to look at both. Blessings...

[LS]

I appreciate all of the gentle replies!  I am aware of this line of thought ...

:cloud9: The wicked are removed, but it's the wicked things in us (tares planted while we slept-Adam went to sleep but was not awakened until Christ). Judgment begins in the house of the Lord. Know ye not ye are the temple.....Blessings....

  :thumbsup:  Anything not of God destroyed, as by fire, so the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.

... and truthfully, I can see how some passages that speak of destroying the wicked could mean the wicked "things" within and not the person.  (I don't think it's a given, but I can understand that view).

But there are other more forceful passages that to me, refer to the individual. The very soul can die:

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

and similarly: Jas 5:20  he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death

This (to me) is clearly speaking of the person, not a thing within:

Proverbs 6:12-15
12 A scoundrel and villain,
       who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,
       signals with his feet
       and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
       he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
       he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.

And passages such as this specify certain people will obtain resurrection, but it doesn't say all will and I think it is speaking of individuals and not things within us (as those things we wouldn't expect to give in marriage, etc):
Luk 20:35  But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luk 20:36  Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

These are just some examples to explain why I don't see it the way you do.   I want to be respectful of this board and its members - I have learned a lot reading here and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss a few things with you all.  :HeartThrob:

[Beloved Servant]

a good read:


www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW5.htm


an excerpt:

The "annihilationist" has another scheme. He is going to have a few men of his own persuasion to be saved, and then after such-and-such has happened, all the rest of mankind are to be simply blotted out of existence. They will simply cease to exist! That is his idea of the penalty for sin. To the annihilationist the wages of sin is ETERNAL DEATH. But that is not what the Word says! The Bible nowhere speaks of "eternal death." God did not say to Adam, "In the day that you eat thereof you shall surely eternally die." The record does not state that "the wages of sin is eternal death." It does not say that "the soul that sins, it shall die forever." To the contrary, it points to the END of death for "The last enemy that shall be destroyed  is DEATH" (I Cor. 15:26), and the beloved apostle John, banished to the barren Isle of Patmos for the Word of God heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be NO MORE DEATH ... for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:3-4). But again, wages of sin were utter annihilation, or eternal death, then there is if the no hope for anyone. For Jesus was not annihilated! He did not stay dead for ever! If annihilation is the penalty for sin, then every son of Adam, saved or lost, must yet suffer his own penalty and be blotted out of existence for evermore. Then Jesus never saved anyone from anything. And then we all might as well enjoy this world to the full; for it is the only life and existence that any of us will ever know!

[LS]

The "annihilationist" has another scheme. He is going to have a few men of his own persuasion to be saved, and then after such-and-such has happened, all the rest of mankind are to be simply blotted out of existence. They will simply cease to exist!

Hi Beloved ... my belief in eternal destruction is not a "scheme;" it is simply what I believe scripture teaches as the LORD has led me on my own journey.  I personally don't believe it will be "few" (I think most are saved) but that is just my opinion. I also don't think only those of my "own persuasion" are saved.

As I posted earlier:

My own personal belief is that all believers are saved, John 3:16

I also believe that Romans 2:11-16 explain that those who haven't heard of God but still follow the law written on their hearts, will be judged accordingly.  I think this judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46.  I think this is judgment of "the world," people who didn't know Jesus.

But still, I think there are those who embrace evil and turn themselves over to it, and those are not saved.

[chuckt]

Saul of Tarsus was annihilated.

i love it!!

[Beloved Servant]

Hi LS,

Dear one, the post was not directed at you personally, it is just a reply to the topic of the thread.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAPXWZv4b7I&feature=related
             

[Beloved Servant]

Saul of Tarsus was annihilated.

i love it!!

He sure was.
And blinded by the Faith of our Lord Jesus Christ to all the things of the world so that now all he could see was Christ Risen.

[shawn]

a good read:


www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW5.htm


an excerpt:

The "annihilationist" has another scheme. He is going to have a few men of his own persuasion to be saved, and then after such-and-such has happened, all the rest of mankind are to be simply blotted out of existence. They will simply cease to exist! That is his idea of the penalty for sin. To the annihilationist the wages of sin is ETERNAL DEATH. But that is not what the Word says! The Bible nowhere speaks of "eternal death." God did not say to Adam, "In the day that you eat thereof you shall surely eternally die." The record does not state that "the wages of sin is eternal death." It does not say that "the soul that sins, it shall die forever." To the contrary, it points to the END of death for "The last enemy that shall be destroyed  is DEATH" (I Cor. 15:26), and the beloved apostle John, banished to the barren Isle of Patmos for the Word of God heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be NO MORE DEATH ... for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:3-4). But again, wages of sin were utter annihilation, or eternal death, then there is if the no hope for anyone. For Jesus was not annihilated! He did not stay dead for ever! If annihilation is the penalty for sin, then every son of Adam, saved or lost, must yet suffer his own penalty and be blotted out of existence for evermore. Then Jesus never saved anyone from anything. And then we all might as well enjoy this world to the full; for it is the only life and existence that any of us will ever know!

I think it to be intellectually honest and gentle in our replies to not make assumptions about the person due to our interpretation of scripture.  While I think the Bible has more support for ED I leave the door open to various interpretations.  Those who believe in ED punish no one by extermination.  They are not the bearer of the sword.  They are not the judge.  When I read passages like the one above...I am reminded of this passage.

Romans 9

14What shall we say then?(W) Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses,(X) "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh,(Y) "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For(Z) who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man,(AA) to answer back to God?(AB) Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21(AC) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump(AD) one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience(AE) vessels of wrath(AF) prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known(AG) the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he(AH) has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he(AI) has called.

But, are we really putting other interpretations/interpreters on trial?  20But who are you, O man,(AA) to answer back to God?  What if ED is the proper interpretation and UR guys just can't wrap their finite minds around the concept?  If that is the case...it's God and his judgement that are being placed on trial.  I am not willing to do that.  I try to stay humble through my studies and not assume I can ever fully understand the ways of God.  If God built some vessels for destruction in order that believers might know his goodness...then so be it.  Who am I to argue?  If he chooses to save all mankind...I'm sure I will rejoice in the streets of heaven.  I doubt I will ever understand ET...but that isn't a prerequisite of God's judgement.  I don't have to understand it...for it to be true.  I don't have to agree with it.  And I certainly won't place those who believe it...or God on trial.

[LS]

be I think it to be intellectually honest and gentle in our replies to not make assumptions about the person due to our interpretation of scripture.  

:thumbsup:  Excellent post, Shawn; your entire post expressed something I believe deeply for all of us, for all topics. Thank you!

[thinktank]

Take 10 Christians and 10 Of other religions and 10 [non-believing] Athiests or criminals  (pretty much the current general composition of the world... and dump them ALL in the middle of the Ocean... and see how many of these shall fight to remain alive...  I'm betting ALL, 30 of them, What number do you project? .

Not only that, but the 20 which do not believe in CHRIST, will FIGHT JUST as HARD as the "Christians", ...NOT just give in, and "DROWN" than continue to fight for LIFE, in the hope to go on living...  Mshock

And when the "CHRISTIAN boat" comes by... they shall say... "NO THANKS we would RATHER DIE than get on board..."  Mshock  Are you serious? dunno  Have you rationally thought this through?



Those are still average joeys though.

If the antichrist was in the sea though he would climb aboard the christian boat and then stab those aboard the christian boat. Wait for those 10 christians to come upon the boat, stab them.

wait for the aethists, then stab them

wait for the 10 from the other religions and then make them his slaves.
:icon_joker:

No murderer has eternal life in him sayeth Jesus.