Annihilationism verses UR.

[shawn]

Jab...I am aware of the laws of conservation of mass.  However, I'm not sure Jesus would use a metaphor about this law to the common man 2000 years ago.  It's certainly possible but for me is a stretch.

[jabcat]

On a basic level, even God's cleansing is nothing to be sneezed at, so it could still be seen as a dire warning - something to "avoid" by being obedient "now".  So IMO, Jesus talking about destruction, punishment etc., could still have deeper meaning/aspects and process of cleansing as mentioned above.  I may simply tell my child, "don't go in the street, you may get hit".  But I may not go into all the details of what that may entail - injury, hospital stay, the different types of treatment that may be involved - surgery, casts, traction, the credentialing of certain doctors' specialties, options of medications to be used - how those meds are researched, tested, patented, how they work, etc.  So anyway, a simple warning and all the other possible intricate details, IMO, are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Again quoting Mr. Eby from the same article, following his description of the cleansing process - "If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. You have to make war on the carnal mind with fire, divine fire that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around. Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."

[shawn]

I couldn't find the verse in Enoch but I believe it's important to understand what the Jewish believed Gehenna to mean.  I did find some commentary on the subject.

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God ('Er. 19a). As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).


Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G#ixzz0rtEAVG6I




This goes on to say...

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G#ixzz0rtCqypXm

Do the sinners disappear from the pious to go to eternal punishment or to annihilation?  Do some sinners die there and others suffer for eternity according to Jewish understanding?

[shawn]

On a basic level, even God's cleansing is nothing to be sneezed at, so it could still be seen as a dire warning - something to "avoid" by being obedient "now".  So IMO, Jesus talking about destruction, punishment etc., could still have deeper meaning/aspects and process of cleansing as mentioned above.  I may simply tell my child, "don't go in the street, you may get hit".  But I may not go into all the details of what that may entail - injury, hospital stay, the different types of treatment that may be involved - surgery, casts, traction, the credentialing of certain doctors' specialties, options of medications to be used - how those meds are researched, tested, patented, how they work, etc.  So anyway, a simple warning and all the other possible intricate details, IMO, are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Again quoting Mr. Eby from the same article, following his description of the cleansing process - "If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. You have to make war on the carnal mind with fire, divine fire that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around. Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."

Jab...I really hope you are right on this.  I just don't know. 

[jabcat]

I hope I'm right too.   :laughing7: 

I cling to this;  You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.  James 5:11   :thumbsup:

[shawn]

I hope I'm right too.   :laughing7: 

I cling to this;  You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.  James 5:11   :thumbsup:

On this we can wholeheartedly agree.  It's in this that I trust and why I am not willing to completely close the door on UR.  Our God is mighty and merciful...I believe he loves his creation agape.  I trust God.

[WhiteWings]

Do the sinners disappear from the pious to go to eternal punishment or to annihilation?  Do some sinners die there and others suffer for eternity according to Jewish understanding?

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/516993/jewish/Im-scared-of-going-to-hell.htm

Now to address your question about hell:

You're probably expecting me to depict a haunting scene of ghosts and goblins. But the Jewish concept of "heaven" and "hell" cannot be more different than the description found in medieval Christian texts or cartoons.

Yes, Judaism believes in punishment and reward in the afterlife. But in Judaism:

Hell is temporary -- not permanent.

Hell is a therapy -- not an imprisonment.

Hell is a consequence -- not a punishment.

Hell is a washing machine -- not a furnace.

Sounds interesting? Click here to read all about this topic.

Let me know if this helps. I await your reply.

Yours truly,

Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282508/jewish/What-Happens-After-We-Die.htm

So even the most wicked of souls, say our sages, experiences, at most, twelve months of gehinom, followed by an eternity of heaven.

December 2009
http://www.christianpost.com/blogs/hebrew/2009/12/hell-in-judaism-gehenna-part-1-2-15/index.html
In the Kabbalah, Gehenna is called a "waiting room" for all souls and not just the souls of the sinners.
According to rabbinic literature, people don't stay in Gehenna forever. Gehena is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death.
Rabbi Akiva claims that the longest that one can be there is 12 months.


Judaism
Daniel 12:2 proclaims "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on his or her life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah describes it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 11 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah. In addition, Subbotniks and Messianic Judaism believe in Gehenna, but Samaritans probably believe in a separation of the wicked in a shadowy existence, Sheol, and the righteous in heaven.

August 2004
We have also demonstrated from the Tanach
and the Sages that the forgiveness of sin can be
attained with or without the Temple standing, and
without a blood sacrifice.ÊÊ
There is much to be said about the creation and
greatness of repentance. I will only quote a
couple of sources from the Sages of Israel:
"Yet was the fire of the Gehenna created on the
eve of the Sabbath? Surely it was taught: Seven
things were created before the world was
created, and these are they: The Torah,
repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, the
Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the
Messiah".[18]
Ê
"It was taught: R Meir used to say, Great is
repentance, for on account of an individual who
repents, (does not need to die)[19] the sins of all
the world are forgiven, as it is said: I will heal
their backsliding. I will love them freely, for mine
anger is turned away from him. 'From them' it is
not said, but 'from him."[20] [21]Ê

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
December 2009
http://www.christianpost.com/blogs/hebrew/2009/12/hell-in-judaism-gehenna-part-1-2-15/index.html
In the Kabbalah, Gehenna is called a "waiting room" for all souls and not just the souls of the sinners.
According to rabbinic literature, people don't stay in Gehenna forever. Gehena is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death.
Rabbi Akiva claims that the longest that one can be there is 12 months.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
August 2008
Question: Dear Rabbi Maroof,
First of all, I would like to thank you for providing
this space to address Jewish matters. My
question is related to the afterlife, a subject in which
Judaism contains a variety of opinions. From my
understanding (please let me know if I am misunderstanding
any concept), according to some
biblical references, more specifically, Job and
Ecclesiastes, there's a place called "Sheol", an
underground abyss where all souls -whether good
or evil, go. There's also the concept of Gan Eden
(heaven) and Gehinnom (hell), but ultimately all
souls go to heaven after they purge their sins and
wrongdoings, except the extremely wicked and
evil, whose soul will be either ceased from
existence or be eternally under suffering -this is
another topic that has different interpretations. So,
are Sheol and Gehinnon equivalent? Also, after the
resurrection of the souls in the World to Come (in a
physical form), will there be death again?

---
Response: Dear Carolina, These are weighty
and complex questions. Let me begin by emphasizing
that the concept of a soul entering a "place",
whether under or above ground, is not a part of
Jewish theology. The soul is not a physical object
that can travel in space or be situated in a specific
location. Whenever a reference is made to a soul
'going' somewhere, it is intended in a metaphoric,
not a literal, sense.
The Biblical term "Sheol" simply refers to the
grave, the final resting place of the physical body.
Maimonides teaches that the Afterlife is a
metaphysical state of blissful existence that ensues
after the separation of the soul from the body. This
state can only be achieved by an individual who
has perfected his or her soul through the acquisition
of knowledge and positive character traits and the
performance of good deeds. Because the soul has
developed a spiritual, transcendent aspect, it is able
to survive physical death and partake of the greatest
reward imaginable - namely, an unadulterated and
fully satisfying perception of Hashem's wisdom.
It is important to remember that, since we exist in
a physical body during this lifetime and all of our
knowledge is based upon our experiences of the
material world, we cannot possibly imagine what it
would be like to exist metaphysically. This is the
reason why our Sages are compelled to employ
metaphor and analogy when speaking about these
profound matters. Unfortunately, because we are
generally much more comfortable with concrete
imagery than abstract ideas, many people latch
onto the metaphoric depictions of the rabbis as if
they are literal facts. Thus, they develop sensual
concepts of the World to Come that are of necessity
inaccurate. We must accept the reality that the true
nature of the Afterlife is not something that we
have the ability to comprehend during our sojourn
on this Earth.
Wicked people whose entire existence in this
world revolves around material gain and bodily
pleasure have not actualized the metaphysical
dimension of their souls. As a result, their souls
perish with their bodies at the conclusion of their
physical lives. They suffer the ultimate punishment
- the loss of the opportunity to experience the
pleasure of true knowledge and understanding.
In the Messianic era, the righteous will be revived
from the dead and will participate in the establishment
of a utopian society that will be fully aligned
with God's wisdom. Their resurrection will also
afford these great men and women the benefit of
living in an enlightened world community -
something they did not have the opportunity to do
before their deaths. In the end, though, the laws of
nature will continue to reign, and the righteous -
like all other mortals - will eventually pass away
once again, allowing their souls to return to a
blessed state of metaphysical existence for eternity.
I would like to add two important points. The first
point is that our service of Hashem in this world is
inherently rewarding and fulfilling. Any additional
reward is really superfluous to the wise person who
enjoys truth and justice for their own sake.
Similarly, living a materialistic, unenlightened life
is its own punishment. Such a lifestyle frustrates
human beings, denying them the actualization of
their intellectual and spiritual potential while
offering them an endless array of unsatisfying
substitutes that fail to address their uniquely human
needs.
Those who believe that the ultimate reward for
study and righteousness is endless physical
pleasure necessarily maintain that the pleasures of
the body are the ultimate good for human beings,
and that living wisely is a means to the end of
material self-indulgence. Similarly, the belief in
eternal physical torment for the wicked stems from
the assumption that bodily suffering is worse than
the pain of living without wisdom. Both of these
suppositions are contrary to the core teachings of
Judaism. The devoted Jew does not need the
promise of extrinsic reward nor the threat of extrinsic
punishment to entice him or her to live by the
dictates of the Torah. Pleasures and pains of the
body are simply incomparable to the contentment
the soul derives from its pursuit of knowledge and
virtue. By way of analogy, imagine that a wealthy
individual offered you one million dollars cash,
with no strings attached. Would you ask "well,
what's in it for me? What's my reward for accepting
the money?" Any additional reward would pale
by comparison to the receipt of the funds
themselves. In the same way, wisdom is its own
reward, and anyone who asks "what's in it for me"
has not yet experienced its beauty - a beauty so rich
and overflowing that it causes all temporal enjoyments
to seem base and worthless by comparison.
The second point I'd like to emphasize is that the
common notion of "Divine Punishment" is derived
from the theologies of other popular religions, and
not from the teachings of the Torah. In these
religions, God is portrayed as an angry humanlike
being who cannot tolerate the disregard with which
human beings treat Him and His laws. His thirst for
vengeance is so all-consuming that the only way
He can quell his rage is by condemning sinners to
everlasting torment in Hell. This idea is, of course,
based upon the assumption that God takes pleasure
in our morality and religiosity and that He becomes
frustrated and aggressive when we fail to placate
Him with our worship. Advocates of this notion
seem to maintain that God finds comfort in
torturing violators of His commandments for all
eternity.
By contrast, the Jewish view is that righteousness
and wickedness - as well as reward and
punishment - are exclusively for human benefit.
God does not become 'angry' when we sin, nor
does our goodness provide Him any satisfaction.
When we make the right choices, then God may
assist us in furthering our development so that we
more fully actualize the potential for genuine
happiness that He implanted within us - not
because He needs us to continue, but because it is
His will to provide the best for His creatures.
At the same time, when we choose to act immorally,
we do a disservice to ourselves alone. God, in
His infinite mercy, may punish us to correct us and
steer us back onto the proper path, but not because
He takes some sinister, vengeful pleasure in our
suffering. We can see this from the fact that God
only intervenes to punish individuals whom He
knows are sufficiently close to Him to respond
appropriately to censure, as King Solomon wrote,
"The ones God loves, He rebukes." If a person is
so far from God that there is no hope that he will
repent as a result of Divinely imposed punishments,
then God will not implement them.
Hashem does not mete out consequences to make
us suffer for our sins; His purpose in chastising
human beings is to educate and uplift those of us
who are at least potentially receptive to His
message.
From this standpoint, it is clear why subjecting
human souls to everlasting torment in the Hereafter
would be meaningless. Once our lives are over,
all hope of repentance is lost - so what use would
punishment serve after death? Only a religion that
views God in human terms - as a sadistic fatherfigure
who is insatiably angry with his children
and needs to 'vent' - could possibly embrace such
a concept.
I should mention that there are some Rabbis,
such as Nachmanides, who subscribe to the
concept of 'Gehinnom'. 'Gehinnom' is understood
here as a process of purification of the soul -
metaphorically denoted by a 'place' to which it
goes - that occurs before that soul enters its final
state of spiritual existence. We all have ties to the
material world that serve as obstacles to our
spiritual growth, interfering and even tampering
with the proper development of our souls. The idea
of Gehinnom is that a profound experience of
self-awareness and intellectual clarity after death -
revealing, as it would, that any attachment to the
realm of the physical is utterly meaningless - may
enable a person to become freed from some of
these limitations and thus to enjoy a more
complete and gratifying metaphysical existence in
the Next World.
For a more detailed and in-depth discussion of
these ideas, I would encourage you to read
Maimonides' "Introduction to Helek", which can
be purchased in English translation from Moznaim
Publishers (It appears as an appendix in the
volume of the Rambam series entitled "Pirkei
Avot").
You may write Rabbi Maroof at his blog:
http://askrabbimaroof.blogspot.com

[thinktank]

Interesting, good thinking going to a rabbi whitewings I never thought of that, interesting to see the rabbi viewpoint.

[WhiteWings]

Hi ThinkTank,

http://www.mesora.org/ => Main site
http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes/  => Magazine
http://www.mesora.org/qa/ => Q&A

I think it's a good site.

"Hell" lasts:
3 months (or less) for most.
11 months for the very wicked.
12 month for the extremely wicked. (Few/some Rabbis believe this group will be destroyed after the 12 months)
The majority of Rabbi's seem to agree with the above. I Googled a lot for it. But I never found what verses they base that belief on. (my guess it that it has something to do with harvests)

[shawn]

Guys I think we need to be careful not to correlate current Jewish teachings on Gehenna with those of the first century.  I would love to read about first century Jewish beliefs on Gehenna.  I know the Pharisees of that time believed in reincarnation for instance.  I would like to think that Jesus would use a metaphor that would be understood by those of that time.

[thinktank]

I havent read much but from what Ive heard there are lots of different Jewish techings, the same way that we Christians differentiate.

[LS]

The problem with UR could be that there are those who will always be opposed to God. There are some people who just don't believe out of ignorance, and given the right opportunity will become believers/worshipers. Then there are those who just plain hate God. They hate Christ. They're not Atheists or Agnostics, they're Antichrists.

It could be argued that for such souls, heaven would be like hell to them. And I seriously think, in my tiny human brain, that given the choice, such people would rather just be zapped out of the afterlife. Most such people I'm sure believe that there's no afterlife anyways.

So, does anyone have any thoughts about Annihilationism versus UR? Anyone here a former Annihilationist? Does Annihilationism seem unbiblical? If so, in what way?
It seems like ET and UR get argued back and forth and constantly pitted against each other. But this third option seems to get left more out of the picture.

Hi Brian - I am a believer in annihilation, or eternal destruction.  I very much agree with you observation ... I too believe there are some who so embrace evil and so hate the Light, that they would rather be destroyed and it would not be loving at all to force them into His presence. 

"Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

I didn't come here to argue with people, but I would be happy to discuss this and clarify what I believe if anyone has questions. 

[LS]

Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

Scripture IS clear that death will be destroyed. When and how? When it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  What/who else goes into the Lake of Fire? Those whose names are not found written in the book of life.

IMHO, if death is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, so are those who are also thrown in. No where does it say that all people "go through" the Lake of Fire, so I do not believe the argument some make that "this life" is the lake of fire.

Rev 10
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

[LS]

Guys I think we need to be careful not to correlate current Jewish teachings on Gehenna with those of the first century.  I would love to read about first century Jewish beliefs on Gehenna.  I know the Pharisees of that time believed in reincarnation for instance.  I would like to think that Jesus would use a metaphor that would be understood by those of that time.

Hi Shawn - in the Catholic Bible are the books of Macabees.  Catholics consider them to be inspired scripture; other Christians consider them to be historical books, but not inspired.  They are found in many older KJV Bibles.

Either way, whether inspired or historical, here is a passage that I think is significant to this discussion.  In this passage, a young man is being tortured to death unless he denounces God.  This is his reply:

14 When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."

[thinktank]

Yeah the devil is also thrown into the lake of fire, but God did not die for the devil, only for men.

[jabcat]

Yes, LS, this can be a good discussion, as long as everyone's loving and presents as "as I understand/IMO".  

Re: your point TT - did Jesus die for the "other" angels/messengers?  Or are they (including satan) in a "different category"/lineage than the Adamic nature for which Jesus' sacrifice was required?   :dunno2:

[LS]

Yes, LS, this can be a good discussion, as long as everyone's loving and presents as "as I understand/IMO".  

Re: your point TT - did Jesus die for the "other" angels/messengers?  Or are they (including satan) in a "different category"/lineage than the Adamic nature for which Jesus' sacrifice was required?   :dunno2:

I hear you   :thumbsup:

Hi thinktank ... I'm not sure if you are saying no "men" go into the lake of fire, only the devil? But I don't think that is the case, considering the previous passages in context:

Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It appears to me to be speaking specifically about the judgement of man.

[thinktank]

Yes, LS, this can be a good discussion, as long as everyone's loving and presents as "as I understand/IMO".  

Re: your point TT - did Jesus die for the "other" angels/messengers?  Or are they (including satan) in a "different category"/lineage than the Adamic nature for which Jesus' sacrifice was required?   :dunno2:

The bible seems to indicate that as in Adam all die but all in Christ shall be made alive. Also the first man is of the earth, but the second man is the lord from heaven. Both Adam and Jesus are men but there is no equivalent sacrifice for the fallen angels :2c:

[thinktank]

Yes, LS, this can be a good discussion, as long as everyone's loving and presents as "as I understand/IMO".  

Re: your point TT - did Jesus die for the "other" angels/messengers?  Or are they (including satan) in a "different category"/lineage than the Adamic nature for which Jesus' sacrifice was required?   :dunno2:

I hear you   :thumbsup:

Hi thinktank ... I'm not sure if you are saying no "men" go into the lake of fire, only the devil? But I don't think that is the case, considering the previous passages in context:

Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It appears to me to be speaking specifically about the judgement of man.

Hello Ls nice to meet you, the thing that confuses me about that part is that those who have done good will be given life. The question is how does one do good? Is it belief in Jesus or does it mean things such as people who help out their neighbour. The problem is, if people are saved by their good works, not belief in Jesus, then it contradicts what other passages say in the bible.

I did belive at one point that the lake of fire were for the demons and angels who were/are in the abyss, (the same book talks about angels chained up in the abyss) for Jesus says, 'no ye not that ye shall judge angels' but as you said the passage does indicate that it is man who are being judged.

[LS]

Hello Ls nice to meet you, the thing that confuses me about that part is that those who have done good will be given life. The question is how does one do good? Is it belief in Jesus or does it mean things such as people who help out their neighbour. The problem is, if people are saved by their good works, not belief in Jesus, then it contradicts what other passages say in the bible.

I did belive at one point that the lake of fire were for the demons and angels who were/are in the abyss, (the same book talks about angels chained up in the abyss) for Jesus says, 'no ye not that ye shall judge angels' but as you said the passage does indicate that it is man who are being judged.

It's very nice to meet you too :)

I don't think that works save us, but I do believe our works factor in to how we are judged.

My own personal belief is that all believers are saved, John 3:16

I also believe that Romans 2:11-16 explain that those who haven't heard of God but still follow the law written on their hearts, will be judged accordingly.  I think this judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46.  I think this is judgment of "the world," people who didn't know Jesus.

But still, I think there are those who embrace evil and turn themselves over to it, and those are not saved.

That's a basic outline of my beliefs, if that helps. 

[willieH]

With that said, I see no Biblical evidence that we will get a chance to accept Jesus AFTER death.

Every knee will and confess....
Every person that kneels accepts Jesus. The person who accepts Jesus is saved.
No time limit.

If we are intellectually honest...we must realize that could mean many things.  And that UR interpretation of that verse doesn't fit with the large bulk of scripture.

(1) --- Where is it noted ANYWHERE in the Scripture that "CHANCE" is  AT ALL, involved in Salvation?  Name me ONE VERSE...  :dontknow:

(2) --- No offense bro, but your last remark here is just so many words, that really don't say anything substancial...  and,

What does "intellectual honesty" have to do with anything?  The SCRIPTURES say (in 3 places -- NT/OT --> Phil 2:10-11 -- Rom 14:11 -- Isaiah 45:23) that EVERY KNEE shall bow and EVERY TONGUE confesses CHRIST... what is in any way, "dishonest" about that when considered in the observation of UR?  NOTHING is impossible with God... especially SALVATION...

(3) --- What... "large bulk" of Scripture? ...how about naming at least A FEW portions of this "bulk"?

Let's discuss what the WORD says, about this...   :dbook:  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[jabcat]

One thing I really like Willi, that I believe is OFTEN (if not always overlooked,  is that "no one can confess Jesus as Lord except IN the Holy Spirit".  Not BY, as the AV and others state.  It's IN the Holy Spirit.  To me that's a strong point that's often not seen.  :thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

One thing I really like Willi, that I believe is OFTEN (if not always overlooked,  is that "no one can confess Jesus as Lord except IN the Holy Spirit".  Not BY, as the AV and others state.  It's IN the Holy Spirit.  To me that's a strong point that's often not seen.  :thumbsup:

That and virtually every instance of someone trying to refute philippians will leave out the confess Jesus as Lord to the Glory of the Father.


In almost every case they just use the reference to bowing.

When they do try to use Bowing and confessing they add words that are not in the passage and they still Dance around in their so called rebuttles how that is "To the Glory of God the Father"  they pretty much stay silent on that one.

they try to do this by saying  "Sure, they do this in a last ditch effort to save themselves when they realize how much they screwed up"

In every case they contradict scripture every time.

In the bible it says to call upon the name of the Lord and WHAT?   WHAT?


Ro 10:13 For everyone, whoever should be invoking the name of the Lord, shall be saved.



I've tried in the past when I was defending the teachings I was raised with, when the idea of God saving all mankind was introduced to me, when my doctrines and arguments were being shattered one by one.

I tried all the arguments, all the cliches, all the words and they all contradict scripture.

It just cannot be done.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi LS... :hithere:

Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

Scripture IS clear that death will be destroyed. When and how? When it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  What/who else goes into the Lake of Fire? Those whose names are not found written in the book of life.

ALL names are not "found" written in the book of LIFE... for ALL (which are "cast" into THIS REALM) -- DIE in ADAM... but are found written in the book of Life... restored, by the resurrected LIFE of CHRIST which tasted and destroyed [spiritual] DEATH for ALL -- Heb 2:9

IMHO, if death is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, so are those who are also thrown in. No where does it say that all people "go through" the Lake of Fire, so I do not believe the argument some make that "this life" is the lake of fire.

DEATH was destroyed by CHRIST... in resurrection... as Paul notes -- O DEATH where is thy sting, O grave where is thy VICTORY? ...the VICTORY of LIFE over DEATH, and destruction of it, was done by CHRIST, and took place here and NOW.

I think the biggest problem with understanding the "Lake of FIRE"... is WHAT it is and WHEN it is...  :Chinscratch:

Most everyone percieves it to be AFTER this REALM... when JESUS plainly stated that ...NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD -- John 12:31

NOW is the JUDGMENT, ...NOW it the ACCEPTED TIME, ...NOW is the day of SALVATION... now, now, now...  :dontknow:  How many times must the GOD of NOW  ["I AM"] ,tell us of Himself before we listen?  :dontknow:

It appears that you observe (as do most) that the "FIRE" as mentioned in the "Revelation of the JESUS CHRIST [the WORD], as one which is "LITERAL"... which "FIRE" ONLY appears named within this book of SYMBOLISM... and is totally dedicated to the REVEALING of the SPIRITUAL REALITY... known as JESUS CHRIST...

Paul noted that we are not to observe [know] CHRIST (nor any other man) after the flesh (as a man) -- 2 Cor 5:16

GOD is a CONSUMING FIRE -- Heb 12:29
We are presently --- IN HIM -- Acts 17:28

That which is IN HIM, is within a CONSUMING FIRE...

HOLY and SPIRITUAL FIRE, consumes UNHOLINESS... which is that which predominates the existence of Humanity... until it has CONSUMED the tainted LIFE of each individual experience...

Rev 10
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

ALL MEN die in Adam, and RETURN to an NON-LIVING state -- Gen 3:19 -- this occurs for EACH human being, during each individual experience WITHIN THIS REALM... DEATH and HADES [grave] are present for EACH human, and definitely within THIS REALM.

Irregardless of your or my perceptions of what is BEYOND this realm, ...which perceptions are not KNOWN ABSOLUTELY...

What IS -- ABSOLUTELY KNOWN by each of us, is that EACH human WILL die and enter the state of the GRAVE which engulfs each man in DEATH.

THIS life IS the LOF... and it was WITHIN ...THIS LIFE, that "DEATH" and its comrade, the  "GRAVE" ARE destroyed IN and by the RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST... which MAKES ALL ALIVE:

1 Cor 15:22 --  AS in Adam ALL DIE [grave] even so IN ...CHRIST [didya get that IN CHRIST] shall ALL [same "all"] be ...MADE... ALIVE...

It is life -- John 14:6 -- JESUS CHRIST --  which DESTROYS the "partners" of "death" and the "grave" ... and THAT was accomplished at the Cross, by CHRIST -- WITHIN THIS LIFE, and within THIS REALM -- Rev 3:18 --- in which ALL [in due time] are ...MADE... alive... by the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY of this REALM -- John 6:44 -- John 12:48

At that time, ALL those who did not confess, and bow while living in THIS REALM... shall DO SO in resurrection... to the GLORY of YHVH and His Son, JESUS CHRIST...

The WORD makes ALL things that are "MADE" -- John 1:3 -- and there is NOTHING that is "MADE" without the WORD... including ALL that DIE in Adam which shall be ...MADE... alive!!!  :boogie:

:Peace:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

One thing I really like Willi, that I believe is OFTEN (if not always overlooked,  is that "no one can confess Jesus as Lord except IN the Holy Spirit".  Not BY, as the AV and others state.  It's IN the Holy Spirit.  To me that's a strong point that's often not seen.  :thumbsup:

That and virtually every instance of someone trying to refute philippians will leave out the confess Jesus as Lord to the Glory of the Father.


In almost every case they just use the reference to bowing.

When they do try to use Bowing and confessing they add words that are not in the passage and they still Dance around in their so called rebuttles how that is "To the Glory of God the Father"  they pretty much stay silent on that one.

they try to do this by saying  "Sure, they do this in a last ditch effort to save themselves when they realize how much they screwed up"

In every case they contradict scripture every time.

In the bible it says to call upon the name of the Lord and WHAT?   WHAT?


Ro 10:13 For everyone, whoever should be invoking the name of the Lord, shall be saved.



I've tried in the past when I was defending the teachings I was raised with, when the idea of God saving all mankind was introduced to me, when my doctrines and arguments were being shattered one by one.

I tried all the arguments, all the cliches, all the words and they all contradict scripture.

It just cannot be done.

:goodpost:

...willieH  :icon_king: