I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;
1) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, [Gen 3:6] in the garden, it must have been God's will.
2) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve gave to her husband, Adam, and he did eat, also, [Gen 3:6] it must have been God's will.
3) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if cain killed Able, [Gen 4:8] it must have been God's will.
4) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the sons of God came in unto the daughter's of men, [Gen 6:4] it must have been God's will.
5) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,[Gen 6:5] it must have been God's will.
6) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will
7) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.
8) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If David committed adultry with Bath-sheba, [2 Sam 11:4] it must have been god's will.
9) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If, of all the many thousands who came out of Egypt, in the great exodus, only two made it to the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb)[Num 14:30,38] it must have been God's will.
10) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Moses came down off the mount, and saw the children of israel dancing around a God they had made for themselves, [Num 32] it must have been God's will.
11) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If all men sin and come short of the glory of God; [Rom 3:23] it must have been God's will.
12) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, [Acts 7:51] it must have been God's will.
13) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews stoned Stephen, [Acts 7:60] it must have been God's will.
14) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if evil men put you out of the synagogue, and even kill you, they will think they do God a service, [John 16:2-3] but it must have been God's will.
15) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews rebelled against God, and cast down his law behind their backs, and slew the prophets, and wrought great provocation, [Neh 9:26] it must have been God's will.
16) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Pharoah slew all the male children of Israel, [Exo 1:16] it must have been God's will.
17) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Herod slew all the children of Bethlehem, and in all the costs thereof, from two years old and under, [Mat 2:16] it must have been God's will.
18) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.
19) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Sapphira, his wife joined him in his deed, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.
20) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Satan was a liar from the beginning, [John 8:44] it must have been God's will.
21) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Peter betrayed his Lord with denial, [Mat 26:75] it must have been God's will.
22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a god of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?
23) And if God's will cannot be overturned, or thwarted, why should wives submit to their own husbands, children obey their parents, murderers be punished, and etc. ad nauseum? God's will is, after all, behind it all.
24) And if God is love, and I preach that he is a God of vengeance, what difference does it make to you, it is God's will.
25) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, he becomes directly responsible for all the sin, murder, adultry, lying, cheating, stealing, every evil thing man has ever done. there can be no "repentance, (which God wills that every man repent), because how can a man 'repent" of doing god's will
Do you begin to see just a wee crakc in the doctrine, yet? There is plenty more where this came from. Because, after all, it is God's will that I break down this doctrine, and so I must. And for you to intervene, is to frustrate God's will.
I await your response
Theophilus Book
Since now, through the Blood of Jesus Christ our Lord, we may now boldly come to throne of God, perhaps asking God Himself for the answers you seek would be the more direct approach.
Its God's will for us all to be disobedient so He can have mercy on us all, so we will ultimately all be obedient. Then we'll all be saved. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 15, 2010, 02:21:48 AM
Since now, through the Blood of Jesus Christ our Lord, we may now boldly come to throne of God, perhaps asking God Himself for the answers you seek would be the more direct approach.
I doubt it. I was not asking God. Look again at the title of my post.
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 02:46:20 AM
Its God's will for us all to be disobedient so He can have mercy on us all, so we will ultimately all be obedient. Then we'll all be saved. :thumbsup:
So you worship a God that wants us all to suffer the pangs of guilt, torment each other with awful behaviours and terrible revengeful things, just so he can pardon us?
I don't worship such a God. I worship the God Jesus worshipped.
I worship the God described in the scriptures:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Ecc 1:13 [Concordant Literal] It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it
We are made perfect through suffering, so in order for us to be made perfect, God first has to create the suffering.
There are only 2 men.
Adam — and the Last Adam.
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 02:59:42 AM
I worship the God described in the scriptures:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.
We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the likeness of his resurrection.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 03:16:23 AM
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 02:59:42 AM
I worship the God described in the scriptures:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.
We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the likeness of his resurrection.
Oh dear. So God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, created the whole universe, even declared the end from the beginning, is simply "hoping" that things will work out? He is hoping the creation will liberate itself? :LH:
God is in control whether you like it or not Theo. Trust Him!
There are two Greek words that get covered up in translation by the one word "will." One Greek term is boule, or, boulamai, etc., meaning "counsel," "mutual counsel or advice." The other Greek term is thelo, "form a decision, choice or purpose;" idiomatically, "want," or, "would." It seems the former refers more clearly to what can be set aside or frustrated. The latter is more used of an over-arching plan that cannot be undone regardless of what men do or do not do.
The whole topic is farther frustrated by that one word "will" in English, which we use for the capacity to make a decision (regardless of internal contradictions of thought or emotion,) being colored by additional association with both, 1.) motivation or drive, which, psycho analytically, is either on or off. That is, you either are driven to something or you are not; and, 2.) "want" as a detached emotional desire that can be frustrated and unfufilled.
Jonathan Edwards had about the last word on the nature of the will. He suggested as proof to use the squares of a chessboard and, with a pen in hand, attempt to designate one of the squares on the board without influencing which one is pointed out. It is apparent there is no such thing as an uninfluenced will (which is what is intended by the term "free" will.) God constitutes men with a volitional capacity and they will be held accountable for their choices. Nevertheless, the human will remains something God makes. The contradictory nature of the discussion is well illustrated by this passage of Scripture, a single statement of our Lord we are attracted to change into two, like moths to the flame: "...seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going, according as it has been predesignated. However, woe to that man through whom He is being given up!" (Lk 22:22)
________________________________
MODERATOR'S CAUTION
Since the topic of "freewill vs. the sovereignty of God" rapidly generates multiple pages of tedious cut and paste argument without any resolution, only references integral to another topic are allowed. Should a dichotomy occur and posts become tangential it will be locked or otherwise operated on by one of the Moderators. I consider it very reasonable that, depending on what side of the two-edged sword is most beneficial to person at a given season, that is the side of the discussion they'll be found until they've matured enough to recognize the balanced truth of the matter and share the Divine viewpoint.
Systematically, many are the plans within the minds of men, but it is the purpose or council of the LORD that will stand. Therefore, be still before the LORD and wait patiently for him; fret not over the one who prospers in his own way (the man who carries out the evil desires of his own heart).
peacemaker
"And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Dan 4:35) This seems to be a fundamental observation of the Divine nature. It was part of what was arrived at through much chastening, the Autarch of the World Government of the day having been driven insane for seven years, living in the forest and fields, eating grass as an ox. This judgment was so, "...that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men." (Dan 4:17, AV) This judgment had been shown to the king through a dream that Daniel interpreted the prophecy in by the Spirit of God within him. I can say I hope to not pay such a price to know God is absolute in authority over all. It is expressed in the words, "Jesus is Lord." Lord here is the Greek word kurios, meaning, "absolute, ultimate authority." "...and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Co 12:3, AV; see Phil 2:9-11, specially vs.11)
This happened to Nebuchadnezzar the king, the Head of Gold of the image in another dream he himself forgot. He was so enraged at forgetting it he determined death for all the wise men, and their kind throughout the known world unless they told him what he had dreamed and what it meant.. Daniel ("judged of God," or "God is Judge," "God" being "El" meaning something like our, "all",) whom he called Belteshazzar ("the confusion of baal" that is, "the confounder of the Lord", -- we have an identity among Israel and another to Babylon) by telling the king his dream and what it meant, saved the lives of all those whose work was wisdom in those days. As a result, Daniel became their head and they all owed him their lives.
This dream revealed the meaning of life. That is why it was with such a sense of value to Nebuchadnezzar. The dream illustrates that there is no meaning to life; that is, the Adamic life. I think that is additionally much of why he was so angry, not only that he forgot it. The realm of God where He rules "...shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms," (Dan 2:44) which were what made up the image of Mankind that Nebuchadnezzar had seen. Only that born of the kingdom of God has life and identity that remains. Remember the dream and Who made the king forget it when you confront those who in their own wisdom dismiss God.
Quote from: reFORMer on March 15, 2010, 05:01:16 AM
________________________________
MODERATOR'S CAUTION
Since the topic of "freewill vs. the sovereignty of God" rapidly generates multiple pages of tedious cut and paste argument without any resolution, only references integral to another topic are allowed. Should a dichotomy occur and posts become tangential it will be locked or otherwise operated on by one of the Moderators. I consider it very reasonable that, depending on what side of the two-edged sword is most beneficial to person at a given season, that is the side of the discussion they'll be found until they've matured enough to recognize the balanced truth of the matter and share the Divine viewpoint.
Seconded. Theo, I for one do not enjoy nor choose to participate in fruitless struggling, whether it's with someone to whom God's plan of ultimate reconciliation has been revealed or not - nor is it encouraged on TM. Gary has told me very recently that he wants this site very focused on sharing the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ to those that are seeking information. Since you state your mission is to "break down this doctrine", I ask you to very clearly state what doctrine you're trying to break down, as that will help determine the continuance of this thread. Also, how do you know God wants you to break down the doctrine, and not just your own notions of what you think the scriptures are saying? There was a time in the life of most of those here when they might have been making some of the same objections as you appear to be making.
If it's open, honest seeking and fellowship you're after, then you're in the right place. But please be aware that out-right, straight-forward attempts to bring division and dischord will have a very short time period here. Thanks.
James.
Theo Book, your "25 Questions" are really more for Calvinists than Universal Reconciliationists. Find objections to UR you think are top notch and we'd be delighted to answer them. We do get a bit tired of the same objections most everybody makes as well as these common questions which you could discover the answers to by searching out some of the material on the initial tentmaker page as well as many of the topics here in the forum.
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 03:23:37 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 03:16:23 AM
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 02:59:42 AM
I worship the God described in the scriptures:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.
We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the likeness of his resurrection.
Oh dear. So God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, created the whole universe, even declared the end from the beginning, is simply "hoping" that things will work out? He is hoping the creation will liberate itself? :LH:
God is in control whether you like it or not Theo. Trust Him!
Why is it you change the thrust of what I am saying?
Try one more time.
"Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,
but by the will of the one who subjected it,
in hope
21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Isn't that what legoman also wrote Theo? IMO it's exactly the same.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 15, 2010, 12:11:12 PM
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Isn't that what legoman also wrote Theo? IMO it's exactly the same.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Maybe. I missed it if he did.
in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay
I think he missed a category that we all should be looking for.
and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Quote from: jabcat on March 15, 2010, 08:30:54 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on March 15, 2010, 05:01:16 AM
________________________________
MODERATOR'S CAUTION
Since the topic of "freewill vs. the sovereignty of God" rapidly generates multiple pages of tedious cut and paste argument without any resolution, only references integral to another topic are allowed. Should a dichotomy occur and posts become tangential it will be locked or otherwise operated on by one of the Moderators. I consider it very reasonable that, depending on what side of the two-edged sword is most beneficial to person at a given season, that is the side of the discussion they'll be found until they've matured enough to recognize the balanced truth of the matter and share the Divine viewpoint.
Seconded. Theo, I for one do not enjoy nor choose to participate in fruitless struggling, whether it's with someone to whom God's plan of ultimate reconciliation has been revealed or not - nor is it encouraged on TM. Gary has told me very recently that he wants this site very focused on sharing the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ to those that are seeking information. Since you state your mission is to "break down this doctrine", I ask you to very clearly state what doctrine you're trying to break down, as that will help determine the continuance of this thread. Also, how do you know God wants you to break down the doctrine, and not just your own notions of what you think the scriptures are saying? There was a time in the life of most of those here when they might have been making some of the same objections as you appear to be making.
If it's open, honest seeking and fellowship you're after, then you're in the right place. But please be aware that out-right, straight-forward attempts to bring division and dischord will have a very short time period here. Thanks.
James.
Fair enough!
I find it difficult to read in any public display, any position that makes a declaration that may jeopardize people's final place in God's economy.
I do not know if Hell exists or not. I do know that if it does, we should be warned. I believe there are sufficient scriptures that serve that purpose IF THERE IS A HELL.
I also believe that if there is NO hell, what difference will it make to those who won't go there anyway. In other words, if warned, no loss. If not warned, jeopardy.
THAT's my motive. Change the outlook IF there IS a hell.
I also know, from debating Gary ten years ago, that his original argument was based on the fact of no "hell-warning" in the old testament. I have studied that aspect and determined it was never part of the old covenants to begin with, and served no purpose in that economy. I am simply trying to share that study.
As for my twenty-five questions, if you will loo0k again, they are all predicated upon one thing. "IF - THEN."
"IF God's will cannot be thwarted, THEN..." to show that the argument that God's will is always done is a misguided assessment of historical scripture.
If that is not welcome on this board, I will move on.
I also find it a little unsettling to find the disappointment posted on this board abvout Carm's refusla to discuss Universal Salvation, when this board does the same thing about free will. Seems kinda inconsistent to me. Not my call to make though.
For the creation was subjected to frustration/For God has bound all men over to disobedience
=> that's done by Father.
=> the words subjected/bound shows me it was 'by force'
not by its own choice
=> without asking the creation
Doesn't the above say all that was done by Father regardless if you do or do not believe in free will?
so that he may have mercy on them all.
=> The subjecting had a purpose it seems. Why? That's a whole other topic I guess.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 15, 2010, 12:27:49 PM
For the creation was subjected to frustration/For God has bound all men over to disobedience
=> that's done by Father.
=> the words subjected/bound shows me it was 'by force'
not by its own choice
=> without asking the creation
Doesn't the above say all that was done by Father regardless if you do or do not believe in free will?
so that he may have mercy on them all.
=> The subjecting had a purpose it seems. Why? That's a whole other topic I guess.
I believe I have been notified we are not to discuss that issue "F/W".
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 12:25:02 PM
I do not know if Hell exists or not. I do know that if it does, we should be warned. I believe there are sufficient scriptures that serve that purpose IF THERE IS A HELL.
I also believe that if there is NO hell, what difference will it make to those who won't go there anyway. In other words, if warned, no loss. If not warned, jeopardy.
THAT's my motive. Change the outlook IF there IS a hell.
Ok, I see your point.
But now see it from another view. Just for a moment God is how UR says He is.
Don't you think it's an insult to His character if He is accused of torture while He actually is caring?
Shouldn't that kind of slander be avoided?
It's a like I'm warning everyone you are a thief. That's a good think because if you are a thief I prevented the people I warned from being robbed. But if it turns out you are not a thief then who cares the people weren't robbed either. So it's a win-win situation! Or not?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 12:25:02 PM
I also know, from debating Gary ten years ago, that his original argument was based on the fact of no "hell-warning" in the old testament. I have studied that aspect and determined it was never part of the old covenants to begin with, and served no purpose in that economy. I am simply trying to share that study.
Ok let me ask you a question then about 'that economy'.
You see each convenant as a period in time with it's own set of rules. Is that correct?
Does that also mean Jesus is only the saviour in this economy?
He was slain on the foundation of the world. That's before Adam and Eve sinned.
Does that still place Jesus only in the current economy or all since creation?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 15, 2010, 12:47:28 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 12:25:02 PM
I also know, from debating Gary ten years ago, that his original argument was based on the fact of no "hell-warning" in the old testament. I have studied that aspect and determined it was never part of the old covenants to begin with, and served no purpose in that economy. I am simply trying to share that study.
Ok let me ask you a question then about 'that economy'.
You see each convenant as a period in time with it's own set of rules. Is that correct?
Does that also mean Jesus is only the saviour in this economy?
He was slain on the foundation of the world. That's before Adam and Eve sinned.
Does that still place Jesus only in the current economy or all since creation?
Every covenant has been exponentially more profound that the previous one. First, Adam and Eve, simple instruction with consequence. Second, promises made to Abraham about his descendants, land promise, blessings and cursings, good and evil. Third, eternal consequences, from temporal actions based on personal decisions.
Every covenant had its own set of parameterrs, but they all are based ion the plan of God for a remedy, and that remedy has always been the self-sacrifice of the son of God. He is the ransom for Adam, Eve, all men of Abraqham's seed, and all men of Adam's seed who lived according to whatever covenant they had with God.
God had the plan for the sacrifice of his son, but if man had not sinned it would have not been carried out. He knew the mind of men and provided for every possibility. It was still man's choice that drove the consequence of each covenant, whether for good or for evil.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 11:57:32 AM
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 03:23:37 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 03:16:23 AM
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 02:59:42 AM
I worship the God described in the scriptures:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.
We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the likeness of his resurrection.
Oh dear. So God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, created the whole universe, even declared the end from the beginning, is simply "hoping" that things will work out? He is hoping the creation will liberate itself? :LH:
God is in control whether you like it or not Theo. Trust Him!
Why is it you change the thrust of what I am saying?
Try one more time.
"Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,
but by the will of the one who subjected it,
in hope
21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Hi Theo,
Sorry, I really did not think I was changing the thrust of what you were saying. I may have been in a bit of a sarcastic mood last night, so I apologize if I offended you - but I'm not sure what you are saying here then. Who is it who you think is hoping in the above verse? Surely you see that Romans 8:20 says it is God who subjected the creation (which includes all humans) to frustration, correct? This was done without asking for our permission. And it is God who will liberate the creation (which again includes all humans) from its bondage to decay (sin and death)? Right? Again God doesn't need to ask our permission. :Sparkletooth:
This is the glorious hope. This is man's hope - specifically it is Paul saying "in hope". This is where our faith in God comes in, that we have faith and hope that God will actually do what He says: liberate the creation! It is teaching us faith.
That is the good news and I have faith and hope that He will do it! God says He will do it and I believe He can. God is the one who wants to save all mankind, and God is the one who says He will reconcile and restore all things. He can do it.
In any case, as others have alluded to, maybe take a step back for a second. The arguments you raise here are really nothing new, so you may be fooling yourself if you think this is something the UR believer has not already considered for themself. You might want to read through here to see how your questions have already been answered in more ways than one:
http://tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Coming to tentmaker to tear down the doctrine of UR is surely an exercise in frustration... :Sparkletooth:
Peace out...
If Gods will is frustrated then perhaps he is no more than a man.
The difference is that God already knew everything we would do.
No frustation, only preparation.
There is what we do and what Gods does, the difference is the difference.
Perhaps you could investigate the implications of this verse.
1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Either mans will is stronger than Gods or it is not, if it is not then what some say some verses mean doesn't mean that at all.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:34:31 PM
God had the plan for the sacrifice of his son, but if man had not sinned it would have not been carried out. He knew the mind of men and provided for every possibility. It was still man's choice that drove the consequence of each covenant, whether for good or for evil.
If that is what you think then you rate the knowledge of God lower than I do.
There are no IFs for God. He knew Adam and Eve who sin before they were created. He knows every choice mankind will make from before creation. He even knows I would type this post before I was born.
But you make it sound as if Father didn't really know for sure men would sin and because of that He added a backup plan called "Jesus". Man sinning was no more that a good guess. By your defenition God is very smart but not all knowing.
?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 15, 2010, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:34:31 PM
God had the plan for the sacrifice of his son, but if man had not sinned it would have not been carried out. He knew the mind of men and provided for every possibility. It was still man's choice that drove the consequence of each covenant, whether for good or for evil.
If that is what you think then you rate the knowledge of God lower than I do.
There are no IFs for God. He knew Adam and Eve who sin before they were created. He knows every choice mankind will make from before creation. He even knows I would type this post before I was born.
But you make it sound as if Father didn't really know for sure men would sin and because of that He added a backup plan called "Jesus". Man sinning was no more that a good guess. By your defenition God is very smart but not all knowing.
?
And THAT is where you are very wrong.
There are many events which transpired, in the scriptures, which never entered the mind of God, [Jer 19:5] They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: [Jer 32:35] And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind that they should do this abomination to cause Judah to sin.
And, if God foreknew everything, why did he continually repent of his intentions toward his people?
Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
GOD WILL, AND DOES REPENT
1. Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the
earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
2. Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
3. Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
4. Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
5. Deut 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself
for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
6. Jdgs 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
7. 1 Sam 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
8. 1 Sam 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his
death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented
that he had made Saul king over Israel.
9. 2 Sam 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.
10. 1 Chron 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
11. Psalm 90:13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.
12. Psalm 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.
13. Psalm 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants.
14. Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
15. Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
16. Jer 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
17. Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.
18. Jer 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.
19. Jer 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.
20. Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
21. Amos 7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.
22. Amos 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.
23. Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
24. Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
God is not a man that he should repent, but as God, he repents when men change to do his will.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 06:42:01 PMAnd THAT is where you are very wrong.
So your answer is that God wasn't able to predict His creation would become corrupted?
And while God said His cousel would stand a short chat with a man of His creation and He changes His mind?
As for the verses maybe it's also how they are understood.
For example when I read "neither came it into my mind" I don't read it as I forgot about that or something similar.
God said He didn't command it AND He didn't even concider (came to mind) to command it.
Or it's simply against His personality to "burn their sons".
KJVIsa 46:10 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
I'm not claiming to have all the answers. Far from it. But I know one thing. Scriptures do not contradict.
So when presented a verse that doesn't fit with your overall understanding of the Bible you can't just 'undo' it by quoting other verses. ALL verses should align. So that's why I like to start with the simple a clear understandings.
God knows everything so never is/was/will be taken by suprise by anything/anyone.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 15, 2010, 07:40:21 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 06:42:01 PMAnd THAT is where you are very wrong.
So your answer is that God wasn't able to predict His creation would become corrupted?
And while God said His cousel would stand a short chat with a man of His creation and He changes His mind?
As for the verses maybe it's also how they are understood.
For example when I read "neither came it into my mind" I don't read it as I forgot about that or something similar.
God said He didn't command it AND He didn't even concider (came to mind) to command it.
Or it's simply against His personality to "burn their sons".
KJVIsa 46:10 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
I'm not claiming to have all the answers. Far from it. But I know one thing. Scriptures do not contradict.
So when presented a verse that doesn't fit with your overall understanding of the Bible you can't just 'undo' it by quoting other verses. ALL verses should align. So that's why I like to start with the simple a clear understandings.
God knows everything so never is/was/will be taken by suprise by anything/anyone.
:2c:
Makes sense to me. I wanted another opinion besides my own. Doesn't settle it either way but what you say makes sense. I think there may be another alternative to understanding I haven't seen yet.
But I do think "repent" is the right word because it is the same language used for men who change and turn form one thing to another.
Anyway, God loves us despite our ignorance. He just doesn't want us to grow proud in it.
QuoteAnyway, God loves us despite our ignorance. He just doesn't want us to grow proud in it.
amen to that
:thumbsup:Pro 6:16 ¶ These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Hi Theo,
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 08:19:10 PMBut I do think "repent" is the right word because it is the same language used for men who change and turn form one thing to another.
I can't say for sure from your words so I just ask: Is that repenting an act of man according to your understanding?
I once would have said: yes.
But when I read verses like:
KJVJoh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Repent
Action of Father. Not of man.
=> Drag seems to be a more correct translation for draw. To me that means Father uses great force we can't resist. He isn't asking, begging, hoping, concidering or suggesting. He's using His powers. And I personally think even the worst sinner is vastly overpowered then. Ask Paul/Saul :icon_jokercolor:
that was good WW ,
we are only as Bright as the Light God gives us to shine in a dark and empty world .. your a 60 watter atleast :icon_flower:
yeah GOD changes our minds and hearts and reasons with us :thumbsup:
surely everyone derseves the same chance
Jesus even said about the pharriesses and saducess and all of Israel
while hanging on that Cross / tree
''forgive them Father for they know not what they do'' ...
forgiveness is of the very divine nature of God , we are to learn what good and evil is
and what better way than to be exposed to both
we will hate evil in every form before its all over and done with
and Love Mercy which is Gods eternal attribute
what God whould ask of you to Love enemies and pray for them and NOT DO THE SAME :mshock:
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Quote from: rosered on March 15, 2010, 10:01:14 PMthat was good WW ,
we are only as Bright as the Light God gives us to shine in a dark and empty world .. your a 60 watter atleast :icon_flower:
Only 60? That dim? :idea2:
Maybe you can shine on me a for a while Mrs Floodlight I'm getting bored in utter darkness :msealed:
Quote from: rosered on March 15, 2010, 10:06:35 PM
forgiveness is of the very divine nature of God , we are to learn what good and evil is
Yup :thumbsup:
Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.
Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.
Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
1 Corinthians 13:8 The love doth never fail.
Chronicles 16:34 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
Lamentations 3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Micah 7:18-19 .... he does not keep his wrath for ever, because his delight is in mercy....He will again have pity on us
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.
Plus of course my 3 favorites in my signature.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 15, 2010, 10:09:30 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 15, 2010, 10:01:14 PMthat was good WW ,
we are only as Bright as the Light God gives us to shine in a dark and empty world .. your a 60 watter atleast :icon_flower:
Only 60? That dim? :idea2:
Maybe you can shine on me a for a while Mrs Floodlight I'm getting bored in utter darkness :msealed:
Bro I was complimenting you , er im a 4 watter at least !
hey I got them 4 watts sconces in my bedroom they work , beats tripping and stubbing your toe in the dark !
I was concidering the 30 fold and sixty fold and 100 fold of them
Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive [it], and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
didnt think you would say 100 % yet eh ? hee hee ..
Quote from: rosered on March 15, 2010, 10:20:57 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 15, 2010, 10:09:30 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 15, 2010, 10:01:14 PMthat was good WW ,
we are only as Bright as the Light God gives us to shine in a dark and empty world .. your a 60 watter atleast :icon_flower:
Only 60? That dim? :idea2:
Maybe you can shine on me a for a while Mrs Floodlight I'm getting bored in utter darkness :msealed:
Bro I was complimenting you ,
I know Rosey. Just toying a bit with you :bgdance:
Quoteer im a 4 giga watter at least !
Sure thing!
Quotehey I got them 4 watts sconces in my bedroom they work , beats tripping
That's my advantage. I've fallen so deep I can't even trip anymore. For now I'm enjoying the quiet and waiting for a strong hand to pull me out :thumbsup:
Quotehey I got them 4 watts sconces in my bedroom they work , beats tripping
That's my advantage. I've fallen so deep I can't even trip anymore. For now I'm enjoying the quiet and waiting for a strong hand to pull me out
Bro the Lord is our hand in need and helping us all out of the darkness :thumbsup: and we Praise Him for that :HeartThrob:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 15, 2010, 09:56:38 PM
Hi Theo,
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 08:19:10 PMBut I do think "repent" is the right word because it is the same language used for men who change and turn form one thing to another.
I can't say for sure from your words so I just ask: Is that repenting an act of man according to your understanding?
Well, unless it is God saying "hold still while I make you repent." But then that makes me wonder what was meant by "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve Jehovah." [Said by Joshua]
Quote
But when I read verses like:
KJVJoh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Repent
Action of Father. Not of man.
=> Drag seems to be a more correct translation for draw. To me that means Father uses great force we can't resist. He isn't asking, begging, hoping, concidering or suggesting. He's using His powers. And I personally think even the worst sinner is vastly overpowered then. Ask Paul/Saul :icon_jokercolor:
So it was God's reluctance to stop world war II? He wanted all those children and babies to be slaughtered? Hated those six million Jews and seven million Christians who were slaughtered by the nazis? I'll think about it. Nah! Don't think so.
QuoteRomans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
(Theo) Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.
We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the likeness of his resurrection.
(Legoman) Oh dear. So God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, created the whole universe, even declared the end from the beginning, is simply "hoping" that things will work out? He is hoping the creation will liberate itself? :LH:
God is in control whether you like it or not Theo. Trust Him!
Why would you say a thing like that? "Whether I like it or not."
I am TRYING to understand something here.
(Legoman)
QuoteHi Theo,
Sorry, I really did not think I was changing the thrust of what you were saying. I may have been in a bit of a sarcastic mood last night, so I apologize if I offended you - but I'm not sure what you are saying here then. Who is it who you think is hoping in the above verse?
The creation. "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
And where is this "glorious freedom of the children of God" "For freedom did Christ set us free." We are free IN CHRIST.
(logoman)
Quote
Surely you see that Romans 8:20 says it is God who subjected the creation (which includes all humans) to frustration, correct? This was done without asking for our permission. And it is God who will liberate the creation (which again includes all humans) from its bondage to decay (sin and death)? Right? Again God doesn't need to ask our permission. :Sparkletooth:
This is the glorious hope. This is man's hope - specifically it is Paul saying "in hope". This is where our faith in God comes in, that we have faith and hope that God will actually do what He says: liberate the creation! It is teaching us faith.
What then is the reason for baptism into Christ? I do not ask what is its purpose, but what is the reasoning behind it? For surely you do not believe all men will be baptized into Christ.
(logoman)
Quote
That is the good news and I have faith and hope that He will do it! God says He will do it and I believe He can. God is the one who wants to save all mankind, and God is the one who says He will reconcile and restore all things. He can do it.
THAT is the question I have not seen an answer to as of yet. I see where God has instructed us to get into Christ to receive the blessings inherent with being in Christ, I do not see where all men will get into Christ. Are you saying many will be saved who never were "in Christ?"
(logoman)
QuoteIn any case, as others have alluded to, maybe take a step back for a second. The arguments you raise here are really nothing new, so you may be fooling yourself if you think this is something the UR believer has not already considered for themself. You might want to read through here to see how your questions have already been answered in more ways than one:
http://tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Coming to tentmaker to tear down the doctrine of UR is surely an exercise in frustration... :Sparkletooth: Peace out...
Already been there. Only got more confused by all those translations, none of which are stamped "approved of God." As for Wittemore's "100 proofs" article, I debated that issue ten years ago. Still no response.
As for coming to the tentmaker site to tear down the doctrine, are you saying I should go on the CARM board to debate the issues? or get understanding on the issues? Where else would any honest person go but to the source? I WANT TO KNOW!
I do not want your enemies guesses. And I do not trust your enemies assessments as to what you teach.
Hi Theo. I've enjoyed much of your last few posts. I have some info I'd like to share as a member, not a mod. I'm really not interested in debating, and (although some disagree with the fine distinction I make) debating is not encouraged on TM - discussion is - which is what I've seen you doing lately. If someone wants to discuss and really understand each others' thoughts and understandings, versus trying to "tear the other's POV down", then sometimes I'm in. But I just really believe I can't make anyone see things my way, and hopefully vice versa - that it's the Spirit of God that really teaches and leads us. I wrote this before I saw the last interchange with lego, so I'll just let it stand as is;
Hi Theo. You and Paul are having a good discussion, kudos. I don't want to interfere, but your last post(s) have prompted me to think about some things I'd like to share with you. I will ONLY share with you what I believe and understand from the scriptures and from what God has revealed to me both in my spirit and in the scriptures.
Briefly, and based on many scriptures which I won't take the time to go find :)
I will present a large outline/framework, within which there are MANY intricacies I admittedly have yet to understand and/or be reconciled for me.
I understand that God had Jesus prepared as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. It wasn't Plan B because Plan A failed.
That He concluded all to disobedience, so that He would have mercy on all.
That there was an ultimate price to pay for all mankind's salvation, and Jesus paid it on the cross and when He walked out of that empty tomb.
That He calls and chooses, gives faith to believe on Him as Savior, each in his own order - some now, the rest later. That one must experience the spiritual birth from above, the new birth/born again to see the kingdom. Again, some now, the ecclesia/called out ones, the rest later - as the gates of the city are open day and night and the kings bring their treasures into it. ("Sirs what must I do to be saved?) That we "call on the name of the Lord", "believe on the Lord Jesus" as and when He gives each the faith to do so.
That though God ultimately directs our steps, and He works ALL things according to the counsel of His will, that there are consequences to our disobedience both in this life and in the next age. In this life, as we reap what we sow and miss out on the peace and joy of the Spiritual Kingdom, and don't experience/realize the comfort of the shelter of His wings. In the next age, as we stand before God and all our deeds (and legal standing with Him) are reviewed, judged, and then undergo corrective discipline.
I believe everyone that has anything in them that's not of God will be "tormented" (banismo) for an aion [time period, probably different lengths for different people/situations], sorrow, repentance, and renewal will then occur. I believe Ephesians 1:10 talks of everything being gathered together in Christ, things both above and on the earth. But anything not of God (built on sand, or is wood, hay, stubble) will be spiritually burned, "so that the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord". Our God is a consuming Fire, and it will be painful to stand before Him unprepared. There will be a select company not hurt of the second death, but I personally figure I still have things in me that will need to destroyed in the Lake of Fire. I am personally still in process of clarifying/understanding especially this part, but I believe that will still be a different process for anyone saved by the blood of Jesus and sealed by the Spirit, than a total unbeliever. Also (few stripes/many stripes) that someone who never heard/had little to no light (or a baby, for instance) will have a very quick to immediate realization and conversion, as opposed to say Hitler, who may have nothing left of him except the spirit that came from God. Again, these things are what I understand AT THIS POINT. God is still teaching me. Although He has given me the new birth by His Spirit and through His blood, I just know I'm not perfect and don't expect to be until He creates that in me. I spent 35 years in ET Christianity, pastor's son, etc., but thanks be to God He opened my eyes at least a little bit, enough to see He has a much bigger plan than forever torturing 95% of His creation, while able to barely snatch a mere 5% from the clutches of satan.
What a mighty God we serve.
Quote from: Theo Book
THAT is the question I have not seen an answer to as of yet. I see where God has instructed us to get into Christ to receive the blessings inherent with being in Christ, I do not see where all men will get into Christ. Are you saying many will be saved who never were "in Christ?"
Hi Theo Book,
Are you speaking of a literal baptism by water or a spiritual baptism?
What about all the people who lived before Christ was even born? Can any of them be in Christ? Wondering how you saw this?
You seem to say God isn't in control of all things, that we have a say in our own lives and salvation. If we have this power, where did we get it? If you say, "God gave it to us", then isn't God still in control if he gave it to us?
If you say we have to choose salvation, then aren't we really saving ourselves? If God put it all in our hands why the need for Jesus to die?
I hope you read all of the articles and post on this site there are answers to every question you have asked.
CHB
Quote from: jabcat on March 16, 2010, 01:35:23 AM
Hi Theo. I've enjoyed much of your last few posts. I have some info I'd like to share as a member, not a mod. I'm really not interested in debating, and (although some disagree with the fine distinction I make) debating is not encouraged on TM - discussion is - which is what I've seen you doing lately. If someone wants to discuss and really understand each others' thoughts and understandings, versus trying to "tear the other's POV down", then sometimes I'm in. But I just really believe I can't make anyone see things my way, and hopefully vice versa - that it's the Spirit of God that really teaches and leads us. I wrote this before I saw the last interchange with lego, so I'll just let it stand as is;
Hi Theo. You and Paul are having a good discussion, kudos. I don't want to interfere, but your last post(s) have prompted me to think about some things I'd like to share with you. I will ONLY share with you what I believe and understand from the scriptures and from what God has revealed to me both in my spirit and in the scriptures.
Briefly, and based on many scriptures which I won't take the time to go find :)
I will present a large outline/framework, within which there are MANY intricacies I admittedly have yet to understand and/or be reconciled for me.
I understand that God had Jesus prepared as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. It wasn't Plan B because Plan A failed.
That He concluded all to disobedience, so that He would have mercy on all.
That there was an ultimate price to pay for all mankind's salvation, and Jesus paid it on the cross and when He walked out of that empty tomb.
That He calls and chooses, gives faith to believe on Him as Savior, each in his own order - some now, the rest later. That one must experience the spiritual birth from above, the new birth/born again to see the kingdom. Again, some now, the ecclesia/called out ones, the rest later - as the gates of the city are open day and night and the kings bring their treasures into it. ("Sirs what must I do to be saved?) That we "call on the name of the Lord", "believe on the Lord Jesus" as and when He gives each the faith to do so.
That though God ultimately directs our steps, and He works ALL things according to the counsel of His will, that there are consequences to our disobedience both in this life and in the next age. In this life, as we reap what we sow. In the next age, as we stand before God and all our deeds (and legal standing with Him) are reviewed, judged, and then undergo corrective discipline.
I believe everyone that has anything in them that's not of God will be "tormented" (banismo) for an aion [time period, probably different lengths for different people/situations], sorrow, repentance, and renewal will then occur. I believe Ephesians 1:10 talks of everything being gathered together in Christ, things both above and on the earth. But anything not of God (built on sand, or is wood, hay, stubble) will be spiritually burned, "so that the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord". Our God is a consuming Fire, and it will be painful to stand before Him unprepared. There will be a select company not hurt of the second death, but I personally figure I still have things in me that will need to destroyed in the Lake of Fire. I am personally still in process of clarifying/understanding especially this part, but I believe that will still be a different process for anyone saved by the blood of Jesus and sealed by the Spirit, than a total unbeliever. Also (few stripes/many stripes) that someone who never heard/had little to no light (or a baby, for instance) will have a very quick to immediate realization and conversion, as opposed to say Hitler, who may have nothing left of him except the spirit that came from God. Again, these are what I understand AT THIS POINT. God is still teaching me. Although He has given me the new birth by His Spirit and through His blood, I just know I'm not perfect and don't expect to be until He creates that in me. I spent 35 years in ET Christianity, pastor's son, etc., but thanks be to God He opened my eyes at least a little bit, enough to see He has a much bigger plan than forever torturing 95% of His creation, while able to barely snatch a mere 5% from the clutches of satan.
What a mighty God we serve.
What clarity! What conciseness! Not convinced, but certainly food for thought. Thanks.
Question: Why all the references of warnings in N.T? I know they are legitimate because they are referenced by ECF as early as Justin in the 2nd century. What is your understanding on this?
Thanks, and again, I will only present what I understand, because other even UR believers see some of this differently.
MY thoughts - I believe at least MUCH of Jesus' earthly ministry was PRIMARILY to the Jews. That the scriptures have multiple layers, but that many of the things He said to the crowds were PRIMARILY to them, and further, that at least MUCH of it had to do with the coming judgments - during which time those who thought they were in right standing with God and were "in control" of the religious system, were about to be judged, removed, and replaced by the Gentiles - for a season, "until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled - and then all Israel will be saved". I do not believe everything in history was totally fulfilled at 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, temple sacrifice was ended, and the old and the new violently converged. Yet I do believe extremely MAJOR things occurred then that we make a mistake when we ignore, and when we take scriptures out of their primary context and attempt to force them where they may not belong. **Disclaimer - I believe this is a very delicate matter, and we can mess it up one way or the other. Again, God's still teaching. [A couple of notes of interest; Jesus told the disciples that it had been given to them to know the secrets of the kingdom, to the others around them, it had not - lest they should see and believe. It was not (most of) their time in God's process/overall Plan. Also, J.Preston Eby's study of Lazarus is well recommended.]
Sooooo, yes, there were warnings, and I agree, they're legitimate. I personally reject a New Age "everybody's already saved, nothing else left to do, nothing else is going to happen, all roads lead to God so don't worry about it" mentality - because the Holy Spirit within me shows me and tells me in the scriptures that that is not the case. I do believe though it takes discernment and rightly dividing the Word of Truth to understand and apply correctly to what these warnings referred and related. I'm still thinking about this myself, but it does seem to me that at least some of Jesus' warnings also referred to an 'end times/end of the world' eschatology - however, :laughing7: the end of what times and what "world"? Also, I see any other warnings in the NT having to do with things like again, 1) reaping and sowing in this lifetime, 2) loss of specific rewards and proximity to the throne and level of service in the Kingdom [Paul was certainly saved by the blood and sealed by the Spirit, yet He still talked of running and working - but NOT for salvation] - still, "many will suffer loss", and 3) absolutely punishment and correction, but temporal and with a purpose of "gathering all things together in Christ" [aion =limited time period with a beginning and end, torment = testing as with a touchstone, and in testing for the purity of gold, hell = mistranslated from gehenna (garbage dump where the bodies of those Jewish religious leaders were actually thrown in disgrace, as they were cast into outer darkness - sheol = the grave, etc....] So I don't deny punishment/discipline, or that it's not a fearful thing to fall in the hands of a living God, etc. - but still, that He doesn't burn His creation with LITERAL fire forever, that He has a better and bigger plan that hinges on Jesus, His Lamb slain from the foundation of the world...
Don't want to ramble too much, and before long it might start to run together, so I'll stop right here and hope it mostly makes sense :bigGrin:.
(Theo)
Quote
THAT is the question I have not seen an answer to as of yet. I see where God has instructed us to get into Christ to receive the blessings inherent with being in Christ, I do not see where all men will get into Christ. Are you saying many will be saved who never were "in Christ?"
(CHB)Hi Theo Book, Are you speaking of a literal baptism by water or a spiritual baptism?
I am speaking of that baptism that was described in Rom 6 which is a "likeness of his death so that we may be in the likeness of his resurrection;" that which "were baptized into Christ, did put on Christ." I reference that which Peter references when he said "The like figure wherein baptism doth also save us, when speaking of the eight who were saved in the ark from the flood of water; I reference that whcih is spoken of in Hebrew letter "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God."
I sometimes blend the two concepts in my own mind. I think the water baptism is a spiritual experience.
(CHB)
QuoteWhat about all the people who lived before Christ was even born? Can any of them be in Christ? Wondering how you saw this?
That is why God is in charge at the judgment and not my brothers. I see it as "different covenant, different terms." God will judge that one.
(CHB)
QuoteYou seem to say God isn't in control of all things, that we have a say in our own lives and salvation. If we have this power, where did we get it? If you say, "God gave it to us", then isn't God still in control if he gave it to us?
Very good! Yes! I never say God is not in control. I say God is not only in control, but allows us to participate in our own ultimate experience by choosing (there's that bad word) to obey and seek his good pleasure. "Choose you this day whom you will serve" is one example of this sharing of control.
(CHB)
QuoteIf you say we have to choose salvation, then aren't we really saving ourselves? If God put it all in our hands why the need for Jesus to die?
That is two VERY different questions. I am beginning to see a merging of what has been offered in this thread, and what I already understood, and it begins to look to me to be something like this.
God knows our hearts. He also knows what is best for each of us, sometimes contrary to what we may think. When he tells us to "choose ye this day..." he is not saying "You are responsible for your own salvation" he is not even saying "I want to know how you will choose," he is saying "I want YOU to know where you stand in this matter."
That makes it much easier to take a stand and defend righteousness to the death if need be, because I already know where I stand, and not only so, I now know that God knows, and what he expects me to do when challenged.
Sometimes when we are challenged as Christians, we falter, because we feel we are alone in this world, having forgotten God does NOT leave us deserted in our time of need. So if we have already "chosen" (sorry) and committed, it is not God who now knows, for he already did know, but now we have the added strength given us by God by virtue of him bringing our choice to our attention in a very obvious way. This causes us to not have to make the decision under stress, but already made it under clearly blessed conditions. We then become able to stand when all others fall to indecision, never having committed themselves to God.
Anyway, that's what I am beginning to see in all this,.
(CHB)
QuoteI hope you read all of the articles and post on this site there are answers to every question you have asked.
CHB
I doubt it. I have been discussing the issue for ten years now, and am just now getting to where I do not lose it, because most of those with whom I discuss it have short fuses. This is the first time I have received mature responses on a board.
I thank my God and I thank you.
I still have a long way to go. BECAUSE I do not claim only I have the answers. I have more questions, therefore, must continue to ask. Until I am removed for insubordination :sigh:
[/quote]
Quote from: jabcat on March 16, 2010, 02:10:26 AM
Thanks, and again, I will only present what I understand, because other even UR believers see some of this differently.
MY thoughts - I believe at least MUCH of Jesus' earthly ministry was PRIMARILY to the Jews. That the scriptures have multiple layers, but that many of the things He said to the crowds were PRIMARILY to them, and further, that at least MUCH of it had to do with the coming judgments - during which time those who thought they were in right standing with God and were "in control" of the religious system, were about to be judged, removed, and replaced by the Gentiles - for a season, "until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled - and then all Israel will be saved". I do not believe everything in history was totally fulfilled at 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, temple sacrifice was ended, and the old and the new violently converged. Yet I do believe extremely MAJOR things occurred then that we make a mistake when we ignore, and when we take scriptures out of their primary context and attempt to force them where they may not belong. **Disclaimer - I believe this is a very delicate matter, and we can mess it up one way or the other. Again, God's still teaching. [A couple of notes of interest; Jesus told the disciples that it had been given to them to know the secrets of the kingdom, to the others around them, it had not - lest they should see and believe. It was not (most of) their time in God's process/overall Plan. Also, J.Preston Eby's study of Lazarus is well recommended.]
Sooooo, yes, there were warnings, and I agree, they're legitimate. I personally reject a New Age "everybody's already saved, nothing else left to do, nothing else is going to happen, all roads lead to God so don't worry about it" mentality - because the Holy Spirit within me shows me and tells me in the scriptures that that is not the case. I do believe though it takes discernment and rightly dividing the Word of Truth to understand and apply correctly to what these warnings referred and related. I'm still thinking about this myself, but it does seem to me that at least some of Jesus' warnings also referred to an 'end times/end of the world' eschatology - however, :laughing7: the end of what times and what "world"? Also, I see any other warnings in the NT having to do with things like again, 1) reaping and sowing in this lifetime, 2) loss of specific rewards and proximity to the throne and level of service in the Kingdom [Paul was certainly saved by the blood and sealed by the Spirit, yet He still talked of running and working - but NOT for salvation], and 3) absolutely punishment and correction, but temporal and with a purpose of "gathering all things together in Christ" [aion =limited time period with a beginning and end, torment = testing as with a touchstone, and in testing for the purity of gold, hell = mistranslated from gehenna (garbage dump where the bodies of those Jewish religious leaders were actually thrown in disgrace, as they were cast into outer darkness - sheol = the grave, etc.... so I don't deny punishment/discipline, or that it's not a fearful thing to fall in the hands of a living God, etc. - but still, that He doesn't burn His creation with LITERAL fire forever, that He has a better and bigger plan that hinges on Jesus, His Lamb slain from the foundation of the world...
Don't want to ramble too much, and before long it might start to run together, so I'll stop right here and hope it mostly makes sense :bigGrin:.
I'm beginning to breathe again. I no longer feel threatened or abused. Thank you.
The exchanges today seem different than previously, perhaps you are rubbing off on me.
I'll be back.
Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Mark 9:42
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.
Yep, David, that's something that gets my attention. God has certainly spoken to me through those scriptures, David. We all have a grave responsibility, and God no longer winks at ignorance.
Theo, reasoning together is good, isn't it? I believe we'll ultimately all believe what we believe until God shows us/allows us to see something different. :thumbsup:
Amen James.
I will never forget what our Rebecca said to me in an e-mail one day.
That on the boards, it is easy to be trapped into "responding out of the Spirit." —end quote.
Many times it is better not to sat anything at all — especially to the young that have a thimble full of grace and a head full of knowledge.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6xo5KogzaI&feature=related
...and that name above all others is:
:HeartThrob: JESUS :HeartThrob:
He is the first and the Last and without Him we are:
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 12:08:23 AMSo it was God's reluctance to stop world war II? He wanted all those children and babies to be slaughtered? Hated those six million Jews and seven million Christians who were slaughtered by the nazis? I'll think about it. Nah! Don't think so.
That's a difficult question. But I find the plagues of Egypt equally difficult to understand. Because the pharoo didn't cooperate the whole country suffered plagues. And my guess is that poor people in that country got hit harder by it than their master. And that includes children and babies. And that's not the only example of war in the Bible.
I agree not all is easy to understand..... :sigh:
I agree as well. I sort of see it as a basic outline, with specific touchstone scriptures that "hold it together". But then a lot of the in-between details can be hard to "figure out" sometimes. I think that's one thing we try to do, is reason it out sometimes with our own minds, rather than just taking what the scriptures actually say, not read into them with our biases and "this doesn't make sense to me", and just trust that God will reveal the details as we go - or maybe not even until we're in His direct presence and perfected by Him. I have maybe 10 or 20 main precepts I hang my hat on, and believe everything else fits within that outline somewhere, I just may not fully understand those things yet.
It's like Jesus slain, Savior, God is good and His ways are perfect, God's in control, we make choices within parameters He sets, we're blessed and/or judged, corrected, all not of Him destroyed, we're restored, reconciled, God all in all. There are scriptures that address those things, those "building blocks" to the framework. But a whole lot of "but how does this fit exactly" that I believe we just still see through a glass darkly - until face-to-face.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2010, 09:26:03 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 12:08:23 AMSo it was God's reluctance to stop world war II? He wanted all those children and babies to be slaughtered? Hated those six million Jews and seven million Christians who were slaughtered by the nazis? I'll think about it. Nah! Don't think so.
That's a difficult question. But I find the plagues of Egypt equally difficult to understand. Because the pharoo didn't cooperate the whole country suffered plagues. And my guess is that poor people in that country got hit harder by it than their master. And that includes children and babies. And that's not the only example of war in the Bible.
I agree not all is easy to understand..... :sigh:
I'm finding out another thing while studying with you guys...
I am not without biases.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 11:16:23 AMI'm finding out another thing while studying with you guys...
I am not without biases.
We are all here to learn Theo. We all, at least I am, hope everyone adds a piece to the puzzle of understanding.
But not all pieces fit. Or there is disagreement on the puzzle piece. Take for example the two forbidden subjects "free will" and "Trinity". They cause hopeless fights between UR forum members. It's not a rule to hide from the hard questions by people who don't believe in UR.
It's also often thought UR people just pick 5 nice puzzle pieces and that concludes their doctrine.
If you stick around you will notice that's far from true. You may never agree with us, but I think you will at least know/learn we are trying to complete the whole puzzle.
Many people are very aware of the critical questions you asked because they have for example been Calvinists for decades before the turned to UR.
:wink:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2010, 11:44:08 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 11:16:23 AMI'm finding out another thing while studying with you guys...
I am not without biases.
We are all here to learn Theo. We all, at least I am, hope everyone adds a piece to the puzzle of understanding.
But not all pieces fit. Or there is disagreement on the puzzle piece. Take for example the two forbidden subjects "free will" and "Trinity". They cause hopeless fights between UR forum members. It's not a rule to hide from the hard questions by people who don't believe in UR.
It's also often thought UR people just pick 5 nice puzzle pieces and that concludes their doctrine.
If you stick around you will notice that's far from true. You may never agree with us, but I think you will at least know/learn we are trying to complete the whole puzzle.
Many people are very aware of the critical questions you asked because they have for example been Calvinists for decades before the turned to UR.
:wink:
o.k. THAT sheds some light on the issue. Now, later, when my eyes are opened, the light will help.
I have been studying UR only about fifteen years, but trinity for over fifty, so I understand where you are comeing from on that one at least. In fact trinity is almost exclusively the theme of my own board. I also discuss abortion, homosexuality, and several other things of interest to Christians, but not UR. Mainly becasue I do not know what UR doctrine is composed of. Therefore, I practice silence on those issues (on my board).
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 11:16:23 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2010, 09:26:03 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 12:08:23 AMSo it was God's reluctance to stop world war II? He wanted all those children and babies to be slaughtered? Hated those six million Jews and seven million Christians who were slaughtered by the nazis? I'll think about it. Nah! Don't think so.
That's a difficult question. But I find the plagues of Egypt equally difficult to understand. Because the pharoo didn't cooperate the whole country suffered plagues. And my guess is that poor people in that country got hit harder by it than their master. And that includes children and babies. And that's not the only example of war in the Bible.
I agree not all is easy to understand..... :sigh:
I'm finding out another thing while studying with you guys...
I am not without biases.
Hi Theo and WW
just gotta say, none of us know everything till Gods will is complete
tillthan we all just keep searching out Truth / Jesus
and about what you said on pharaoh , him being a leader and his heart was hardened and also the Lord hardened his heart
to me its an example of how we are to hate evil ways
when innocent people suffer at the hands evil hearts we get a better perception of whats evil and whats good
the Day when there will be no more sadness pain sorrow and tears is a day we all long for there will be nothing to defile the new and holy kingdom of God thats going to be glorious in itself ! and all we can do is thank God for this end ! and wait till the Lord God complete His will in mercy
:icon_flower:
for me since beliving in the power of God and His great mercy
salvation means when we die in what ever way death comes to us , being naturally or spirtitually speaking , that work of Christ on the Cross
becomes a reality , our goal as believing His Word over anyone elses is this
death the last enemy is abolished /done away in Christ and a goal that Peter fought with Jesus about , Jesus telling Peter , get behind me satan you are an offense to ME
Being mindful/ savoring the things of men and NOT of GOD
mens state is so temporary , and rise and fall daily , but the Lord God is eternal and thats what makes this wonderful to think upon
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2010, 06:25:11 PMand about what you said on pharaoh , him being a leader and his heart was hardened and also the Lord hardened his heart
Good point Rosey. I thought of that too when I wrote that message but didn't mention it because I thought it would sidetrack my "argument". But now I think about it again it even strengthens what I was trying to say. God punished whole Egypt for its leader being stubborn. But God made that leader (extra) stubborn.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2010, 06:46:37 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2010, 06:25:11 PMand about what you said on pharaoh , him being a leader and his heart was hardened and also the Lord hardened his heart
Good point Rosey. I thought of that too when I wrote that message but didn't mention it because I thought it would sidetrack my "argument". But now I think about it again it even strengthens what I was trying to say. God punished whole Egypt for its leader being stubborn. But God made that leader (extra) stubborn.
Glad you ''get what i was trying to say ''
its hard to put in words sometimes
but the innocent always suffer when evil is done
that just maybe what God wants us to learn and stop ''going along with ''
but first we got to know what the difference is what Gods will is and what it is NOT !
His is always best for all concerned ...
one day this will be all over and done with .. a Day we all look forward to no doubt .
Amen.
The Lord's actions demonstrated, to both sides, at one time, what faith and/or disobedience can do.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 16, 2010, 06:59:42 PM
Amen.
The Lord's actions demonstrated, to both sides, at one time, what faith and/or disobedience can do.
:thumbsup: well said David .. :icon_flower:
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2010, 06:25:11 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 11:16:23 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2010, 09:26:03 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 12:08:23 AMSo it was God's reluctance to stop world war II? He wanted all those children and babies to be slaughtered? Hated those six million Jews and seven million Christians who were slaughtered by the nazis? I'll think about it. Nah! Don't think so.
That's a difficult question. But I find the plagues of Egypt equally difficult to understand. Because the pharoo didn't cooperate the whole country suffered plagues. And my guess is that poor people in that country got hit harder by it than their master. And that includes children and babies. And that's not the only example of war in the Bible.
I agree not all is easy to understand..... :sigh:
I'm finding out another thing while studying with you guys...
I am not without biases.
Hi Theo and WW
just gotta say, none of us know everything till Gods will is complete
tillthan we all just keep searching out Truth / Jesus
and about what you said on pharaoh , him being a leader and his heart was hardened and also the Lord hardened his heart
to me its an example of how we are to hate evil ways
when innocent people suffer at the hands evil hearts we get a better perception of whats evil and whats good
the Day when there will be no more sadness pain sorrow and tears is a day we all long for there will be nothing to defile the new and holy kingdom of God thats going to be glorious in itself ! and all we can do is thank God for this end ! and wait till the Lord God complete His will in mercy
:icon_flower:
for me since beliving in the power of God and His great mercy
salvation means when we die in what ever way death comes to us , being naturally or spirtitually speaking , that work of Christ on the Cross
becomes a reality , our goal as believing His Word over anyone elses is this
death the last enemy is abolished /done away in Christ and a goal that Peter fought with Jesus about , Jesus telling Peter , get behind me satan you are an offense to ME
Being mindful/ savoring the things of men and NOT of GOD
mens state is so temporary , and rise and fall daily , but the Lord God is eternal and thats what makes this wonderful to think upon
Hi RoseRed
Just wanted to share something with you and all others on the board. The scriptures say "God hardened Pharoah's heart" - I have heard sermons on this that say God took an active part in deliberately hardening Pharoah's heart, for his own purpose. The problem I have with that explanation is, the grammatical difference in the terminology.
If you consider - some folks say "Hard Rock just turns me off" or "salt water Taffy turns my stomache" (or some similar language appropriate to your own experience).
I think we can agree hard rock music and salt water taffy do not do anything to effect anybody. they simply are, and we individually react to them as fits our own disposition in the matter.
So also, God did nothing to harden Pharoah's heart, but Pharoah had the attitude, "That Israelite God just turns me off" as in "hardens my heart," or "Makes me stubborn." It was Pharoah's own attitude the scriptures are describing. This is born out by the words used in the Septuagint account - compared with the same word in the Hebrew letter.
ACTIVE = [skleeruneete]
Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
PASSIVE = [skleerunthyee][Subjunctive or Imperative]
Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
PASSIVE [eskleerunthee][Indicative]
Exodus 8:19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Just thought you might like to know why God would harden someone's heart. He didn't. the idea of "God" was what did it. Like hard rock and saltwater taffy.
Hi Theo, is this the same as God sending an evil spirit to torment Saul? or did God not play a part in it and it was Sauls issue.
Thank you Theo ,
for the lesson in use of terms :icon_flower:
I can sure see how any of those people of times past , present or future did , will do or going to harden their hearts against the hearing
of Truth ..
this why '' faith '' comes by hearing ... also seems to be why many have suffered needlessly in a life of misery
but we know that Pharaohs heart was hardened that the glory and power of God would be revealed in it too :thumbsup:
Romans 9 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
seems God does allow room for growth
we are to learn from examples and the scriptures by the Holy Spirit teaching us
Quote from: onlytruth on March 16, 2010, 10:02:33 PM
Hi Theo, is this the same as God sending an evil spirit to torment Saul? or did God not play a part in it and it was Sauls issue.
God sent an evil spirit. Just as he sent a lying spirit to get David to number the people.
Different occasion; different circumstances, different economy altogether.
You see, when God deals with gentile nations under the old covenant with Israel, he dealt with them as enemies of God's people. When he dealt with Israel, he treated them in a much different way than how he treated Gentiles, because they were God's chosen people, Israel. When David was tempted to number the people of God, he knew better, had already received instructions to that effect, and disobeyed, when he should have recognized it as a temptation and avoided it like the plague.
When Saul was sent an evil spirit, it was to counteract the Holy Spirit he had previously receeived, because he had the Holy Spirit and still behaved unrighteously, driven by his own ambition.
Having the Holy Spirit will not make one sinless, it will make one better able to fight temptation. It still requires one to fight and give your heart totally to God.
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2010, 10:37:45 PM
Thank you Theo ,
for the lesson in use of terms :icon_flower:
I can sure see how any of those people of times past , present or future did , will do or going to harden their hearts against the hearing
of Truth ..
this why " faith " comes by hearing ... also seems to be why many have suffered needlessly in a life of misery
but we know that Pharaohs heart was hardened that the glory and power of God would be revealed in it too :thumbsup:
Romans 9 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
seems God does allow room for growth
we are to learn from examples and the scriptures by the Holy Spirit teaching us
It is my firm belief that even Pharoah could have turned to God with tears in his heart and sought a place in God's family, and God wopuld have forgiven him and given him a place in his heart. But Pharoah wanted no part of the God of Israel, other than to show him up.
vessels of honor and dishonor...some fitted for destruction. Destruction appears to be anything not of God that cannot enter the city (wood, hay, stubble) saved as by fire so the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
Hi Theo, if God gave, and took away the holy spirit from Saul is he doing this on a regular basis?Or is God the one who gives us the revelation and understanding in His time,so that no man could boast.
It is now that my life is mine
I've got this short time on earth
And my longing has brought me here
All I lacked, and all I gained
And yet it's the way that I chose
My trust was far beyond words
That has shown me a little bit
Of the heaven I've never found
I want to feel I'm alive
All my living days
I will live as I desire
I want to feel I'm alive
Knowing I was good enough
I have never lost who I was
I have only left it sleeping
Maybe I never had a choice
Just the will to stay alive
All I want is to be happy
Being who I am
To be strong and to be free
To see day arise from night
I am here and my life is only mine
And the heaven I thought was there
I'll discover it there somewhere
I want to feel that I've lived my life
--Swedish Song
Psalm 51:12
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
QuoteIt is my firm belief that even Pharoah could have turned to God with tears in his heart and sought a place in God's family, and God wopuld have forgiven him and given him a place in his heart. But Pharoah wanted no part of the God of Israel, other than to show him up.
But the Lord used this example to show Israel His power to save them ..
I agree with Jabcat the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction
was Pharaohs role in example and Israel went on into Idolatry..
1Corinth . Chapter 10
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, that our fathers all were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
2 and all are baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 and all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank of the spiritual Rock which followed. Now the Rock was Christ.
5 But
not in the majority of them does God delight, for they were strewn along in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became types of us, for us not to be lusters after evil things,
7 according as they also lust. Nor yet be becoming idolaters, according as some of them, even as it is written, "Seated are the people to eat and drink, and they rise to sport."
8 Nor yet may we be committing prostitution, according as some of them commit prostitution, and fall in one day twenty-three thousand.
9 Nor yet may we be putting the Lord on trial, according as some of them put Him on trial, and perished by serpents.
10 Nor yet be murmuring even as some of them murmur, and perished by the exterminator.
11 Now all this befalls them typically. Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained.
12 So that, let him who is supposing he stands beware that he should not be falling.
13 No trial has taken you except what is human. Now, faithful is God, Who will not be leaving you to be tried above what you are able, but, together with the trial, will be making the sequel also, to enable you to undergo it.
14 Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.
It is very nice and challenging to speak with you sis , and I do enjoy your input
:icon_flower:
Beyond the fact of our giving an account for every thought, word and deed, that the choices we make are very significant and that all mankind is judged for his deeds; beyond even God's liberty to do whatever He pleases; there are expressed in Scripture truths at the edges of what is possible for man to conceive.
Not only as the most distant future described:
"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him,then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Cor 15:8, CLT)
But as the most encompassing description of the present reality:
"...but all and in all is Christ." (Col 3:11)
There is only God, and there is nothing else:
"I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: [6] That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else. [7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. [8] Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it." (Isa 45:5-8, AV)
This passage continues:
"How horrible it will be for the one who quarrels with his maker. He is pottery among other earthenware pots. Does the clay ask the one who shapes it, "What are you making?" Does your work say to you, "There are no handles"? (Isa 45:9, AV; cf., Rom 9:30)
Many other ways those who know the Lord may agree with me. This extreme point many do not now see, that all reality is one God, not the locus of that God, not to be worshipped, but He Is The Substance Of All Form. We find a fulness of expression about the unity of all things with God:
"...one God and Father of all, Who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph 4:6, CLT)
"... for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him. But not in all is there this knowledge." (1 Cor 8:6-7, CLT)
The head of this "many...as one" body (1 Cor 12:12) is the ascended Jesus, Who is immortal and incorruptible. While part of the body of Christ, we are yet as in a womb because we still wear Adam; but, we are coming to a complete victory, even over death in our realm of embodiment as we put on the Lord Christ and make no provision to fulfill
the lusts of the flesh.
What Jesus intensified by there stating the Scripture cannot be broken (Jn 10:34-35) was calling us gods, elohim (Ps 82) and theos. The Word of God is first and foremost Jesus. As He said, "He called them Gods to whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken..." Jesus came to us. He has come to us and is now coming to us from the realm of ascension as Spirit and sometimes more. He has complete access to His body. By writing His Word in our hearts and minds we become living epistles. We are aspects of the Word of God. We are the flesh of God in the earth. (cf., Eph 5:30) He will transfigure our bodies of humiliation into the likeness of His body of Glory.
As we are constantly intimate with the Presence of Him Who is the Resurrection and the Life we are transformed into the same Image by His Spirit. That it is "the same Image" is Scripture that cannot be broken. We are already One substance with the body of Glory resting on the Mercy Throne. He disciplines us to align us with Himself that the inner reality of His presence may manifest and reign in all the earth.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 07:21:32 PM
Hi RoseRed
Just wanted to share something with you and all others on the board. The scriptures say "God hardened Pharoah's heart" - I have heard sermons on this that say God took an active part in deliberately hardening Pharoah's heart, for his own purpose. The problem I have with that explanation is, the grammatical difference in the terminology.
I can understand your view after reading your example. I searched a bit and you are not the only one with that view.
So now we have God actively hardened Pharoah's heart and Pharoah hardened his own heart.
I wonder if there is a way we can prove one of the views to be correct and the other wrong. For example a verse in another book that mentions the hardening in other terms. When various people give various opinions on the same subject I try to figure out the most credible view. I for example searched in a Jewish magazine in which Rabbi's write atricles and answer readers questions. Their view is that God actively hardended Pharoah's heart. While I think Rabbi's are very skilled in thier own language they are also human. So it can be the teachings of men. Perhaps they also have very solid proof. I don't know.... The best thing would be a few solid verses.
The verse below shows God can/does harden hearts but it not proof He did so with Pharoah.
KJVRom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Good points Tony :thumbsup: .
We also have "..hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?" Romans 9:21 and
"...if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" Romans 9:22
But always this - "..with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him.." Eph 1:10 :bgdance:
Quote from: reFORMer on March 17, 2010, 07:27:13 AM
The Word of God is first and foremost Jesus.
I thought "trinity" was a forbidden topic. Am I to respond or not?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 17, 2010, 01:10:05 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on March 17, 2010, 07:27:13 AM
The Word of God is first and foremost Jesus.
I thought "trinity" was a forbidden topic. Am I to respond or not?
My post on the Absolute, God as the Totality, could be viewed as relevant to a trinitarian discussion. I meant it to show another depth of understanding reality not as the result of secondary causes, but as of God, "The Source, the Guide, and the Goal of everything," (Rom 11, NEB) without resorting to "free will of man vs. Divine sovereignty" categories. That, "Jesus is the Word of God" doesn't seem something begging for a trinitarian exposition to prove it right or wrong. Then again, it may only seem that way to me. It may be good to refer to the Original Post. We just don't want to descend on that slippery slope into page after page of off-topic "trinity/not trinity" obsessive emptying our vault of valued position papers. One of the underlying reasons is that it is commonly assumed that UR is against the Deity of Christ. Not only would this misrepresent many if not most, that area of quest is not pertinent to the belief that Jesus really is the "Savior of all" as the Bible calls Him on which this site focuses. The truth is we hold as many views as is common to other followers of the God of the Bible: trinitarian, arianism, modalism, etc.
MODERATOR
I interpret our ban to not be against sharing views integral to another topic. It's when we dichotomize into divergent themes of whatever the Original Post was about on one hand and "pro and con trinity" on the other, which is where the feeding frenzy begins, we have to step in "and deliver us from evil; for, Thine is the kingdom..."
Quote from: reFORMer on March 17, 2010, 04:08:07 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 17, 2010, 01:10:05 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on March 17, 2010, 07:27:13 AM
The Word of God is first and foremost Jesus.
I thought "trinity" was a forbidden topic. Am I to respond or not?
My post on the Absolute, God as the Totality, could be viewed as relevant to a trinitarian discussion. I meant it to show another depth of understanding reality not as the result of secondary causes, but as of God, "The Source, the Guide, and the Goal of everything," (Rom 11, NEB) without resorting to "free will of man vs. Divine sovereignty" categories. That, "Jesus is the Word of God" doesn't seem something begging for a trinitarian exposition to prove it right or wrong. Then again, it may only seem that way to me. It may be good to refer to the Original Post. We just don't want to descend on that slippery slope into page after page of off-topic "trinity/not trinity" obsessive emptying our vault of valued position papers. One of the underlying reasons is that it is commonly assumed that UR is against the Deity of Christ. Not only would this misrepresent many if not most, that area of quest is not pertinent to the belief that Jesus really is the "Savior of all" as the Bible calls Him on which this site focuses. The truth is we hold as many views as is common to other followers of the God of the Bible: trinitarian, arianism, modalism, etc.
MODERATOR
I interpret our ban to not be against sharing views integral to another topic. It's when we dichotomize into divergent themes of whatever the Original Post was about on one hand and "pro and con trinity" on the other, which is where the feeding frenzy begins, we have to step in "and deliver us from evil; for, Thine is the kingdom..."
So I guess that's a "no!"
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 12:25:02 PM
I also believe that if there is NO hell, what difference will it make to those who won't go there anyway. In other words, if warned, no loss. If not warned, jeopardy.
Infinite time minus one moment is still a verrrrry long time.
Quote from: Yab Yum on March 17, 2010, 06:27:37 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 12:25:02 PM
I also believe that if there is NO hell, what difference will it make to those who won't go there anyway. In other words, if warned, no loss. If not warned, jeopardy.
Infinite time minus one moment is still a verrrrry long time.
Then again, infinite time minus is not infinite time, is it?
Quote from: Theo Book
Just wanted to share something with you and all others on the board. The scriptures say "God hardened Pharoah's heart" - I have heard sermons on this that say God took an active part in deliberately hardening Pharoah's heart, for his own purpose. The problem I have with that explanation is, the grammatical difference in the terminology.
Have you asked yourself, "where did I get this heart"? (Jer. 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked who can know it.
We are born with these deceitful hearts, only God can soften them. (Job. 23:16) "For the Lord maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me".
Everything has to go back to the source of all things which is God. We humans, me included, sometimes forget and stop at ourselves.
God gave us this heart whether it be deceitful or not. He can harden it or soften it. Eve had a deceitful heart she sinned before she ever partook of the tree of good and evil. She looked on the tree and lusted after it. She was filled with pride because she thought the tree could make her wise.
CHB
Quote from: Theo Book on March 17, 2010, 06:31:03 PM
Quote from: Yab Yum on March 17, 2010, 06:27:37 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 12:25:02 PM
I also believe that if there is NO hell, what difference will it make to those who won't go there anyway. In other words, if warned, no loss. If not warned, jeopardy.
Infinite time minus one moment is still a verrrrry long time.
Then again, infinite time minus is not infinite time, is it?
Well...it is :winkgrin:
Half of infinity is still infity. If you would halve infinity and that half would have a finite length of say 1 million years that means infinity is 2 million years.
Quote from: CHB on March 17, 2010, 06:35:52 PM
Quote from: Theo Book
Just wanted to share something with you and all others on the board. The scriptures say "God hardened Pharoah's heart" - I have heard sermons on this that say God took an active part in deliberately hardening Pharoah's heart, for his own purpose. The problem I have with that explanation is, the grammatical difference in the terminology.
Have you asked yourself, "where did I get this heart"? (Jer. 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked who can know it.
.....
God gave us this heart whether it be deceitful or not. He can harden it or soften it.
Agreed. I think noone on this forum will disagree God can do such things. Paul/Saul is the prime example of that. The question is can man/Pharoah harden or soften his own heart without the help of God? If you can locate a verse that clearly states that man has
no control over his heart then Theo's claim is debunked. Otherwise it's not.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 17, 2010, 07:09:54 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 17, 2010, 06:35:52 PM
Quote from: Theo Book
Just wanted to share something with you and all others on the board. The scriptures say "God hardened Pharoah's heart" - I have heard sermons on this that say God took an active part in deliberately hardening Pharoah's heart, for his own purpose. The problem I have with that explanation is, the grammatical difference in the terminology.
Have you asked yourself, "where did I get this heart"? (Jer. 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked who can know it.
.....
God gave us this heart whether it be deceitful or not. He can harden it or soften it.
Agreed. I think noone on this forum will disagree God can do such things. Paul/Saul is the prime example of that. The question is can man/Pharoah harden or soften his own heart without the help of God? If you can locate a verse that clearly states that man has no control over his heart then Theo's claim is debunked. Otherwise it's not.
I think this is the crux of the whole thing. Is God ultimately in control or is man ultimately in control? Scripture gives many many examples of how God is really in control, especially of salvation, but also in how God harden's hearts, and also converts hearts. God causes people to do what He wants. We see that with Pharoah. We see that with Jonah. We see that with Saul/Paul. If we humbe ourselves, perhaps we can even see it in our own lives.
Now when it comes to salvation, man can do nothing from within himself to save himself. Salvation is a complete work of God, so no one can boast. Romans 9 and passages others people have mentioned should make this clear.
But without getting too much into a free will debate, this scripture hits it home:
Jeremiah 10:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
The writer here is making a point. Can the Ethiopian change his skin? NO. Can a leopard change its spots? NO. So then neither can one who is accustomed to doing evil suddenly do good.
This is talking about your
nature - what's in the heart. In the same way that a Leopard cannot change its spots, we cannot change our
nature. No - only one can do that: Jesus through the Father.
Rom 3:10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
So we should acknowledge what scripture plainly says. There is no one good (none righteous), we are all unrighteous, so how can we who are accusomted to doing evil, choose good and therefore choose Christ? No one can, until the Father enables them:
John 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
The only way we can become good and choose to follow Christ is if we have a
change of nature, and that is what Christ does. He
makes people righteous.
Hi again Theo,
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 12:58:15 AM
QuoteRomans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
(Theo) Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.
We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the likeness of his resurrection.
(Legoman) Oh dear. So God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, created the whole universe, even declared the end from the beginning, is simply "hoping" that things will work out? He is hoping the creation will liberate itself? :LH:
God is in control whether you like it or not Theo. Trust Him!
Why would you say a thing like that? "Whether I like it or not."
I am TRYING to understand something here.
Sorry, again I apologize if I offended. The point here is: who is really in control? If God is in control, and He wants all to be saved, then He will see to it that it happens. Certainly He is powerful enough to make it happen, no?
When I say "whether you like it or not", I'm really asking you to examine your beliefs here. And it appears you are open, and honestly are trying to understand things. So let us examine your belief.
If man, through his free will, can reject God forever, what does this say about God's will? What does this say about God's control? It is saying that man's will is superior to God's will. Man frustrates God forever at his own expense. (How could this even make sense?!? Man prefers eternal torment & suffering just to prove a point?!? Assuming man's will is stronger than God's?!?) So if this is true, under this belief system how much control does God have? Not a whole heck of a lot. Essentially Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, so that all would be saved, but in effect NONE are saved. The only thing that saves a man is his own free will decision. Under this belief system, ALL control is removed from God with respect to a man's salvation. God wants all to be saved, but none are saved unless the man says so.
Now do you see why I stated "God is in control whether you like it or not?" No intent to offend, only make you think.
Quote
(Legoman)QuoteHi Theo,
Sorry, I really did not think I was changing the thrust of what you were saying. I may have been in a bit of a sarcastic mood last night, so I apologize if I offended you - but I'm not sure what you are saying here then. Who is it who you think is hoping in the above verse?
The creation. "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
And where is this "glorious freedom of the children of God" "For freedom did Christ set us free." We are free IN CHRIST.
Yes I agree. The creation will only be freed through Christ. That is what Christ will do for EVERYONE, because Jesus is the savior of the world, who came to save the world, and take away the sins of all mankind so that all mankind would be saved and freed from the bondage of sin.
Quote
(logoman)Quote
Surely you see that Romans 8:20 says it is God who subjected the creation (which includes all humans) to frustration, correct? This was done without asking for our permission. And it is God who will liberate the creation (which again includes all humans) from its bondage to decay (sin and death)? Right? Again God doesn't need to ask our permission. :Sparkletooth:
This is the glorious hope. This is man's hope - specifically it is Paul saying "in hope". This is where our faith in God comes in, that we have faith and hope that God will actually do what He says: liberate the creation! It is teaching us faith.
What then is the reason for baptism into Christ? I do not ask what is its purpose, but what is the reasoning behind it? For surely you do not believe all men will be baptized into Christ.
All men will be baptized with
fire. There is only one baptism. Baptism by fire. The water baptism we go through is a type or physical symbol of the spiritual baptism we must ALL go through.
Baptism by fire. Trials by fire. Purified by fire. The LAKE of fire. God's consuming fire. Its all one. Others here may have different views on this, but that is how I see it.
Quote
(logoman)Quote
That is the good news and I have faith and hope that He will do it! God says He will do it and I believe He can. God is the one who wants to save all mankind, and God is the one who says He will reconcile and restore all things. He can do it.
THAT is the question I have not seen an answer to as of yet. I see where God has instructed us to get into Christ to receive the blessings inherent with being in Christ, I do not see where all men will get into Christ. Are you saying many will be saved who never were "in Christ?"
All will eventually be in Christ, and ultimately in God, when God is ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:22-28).
Quote
(logoman)QuoteIn any case, as others have alluded to, maybe take a step back for a second. The arguments you raise here are really nothing new, so you may be fooling yourself if you think this is something the UR believer has not already considered for themself. You might want to read through here to see how your questions have already been answered in more ways than one:
http://tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Coming to tentmaker to tear down the doctrine of UR is surely an exercise in frustration... :Sparkletooth: Peace out...
Already been there. Only got more confused by all those translations, none of which are stamped "approved of God." As for Wittemore's "100 proofs" article, I debated that issue ten years ago. Still no response.
As for coming to the tentmaker site to tear down the doctrine, are you saying I should go on the CARM board to debate the issues? or get understanding on the issues? Where else would any honest person go but to the source? I WANT TO KNOW!
I do not want your enemies guesses. And I do not trust your enemies assessments as to what you teach.
No please please don't go to CARM. If you're intent is not tear down the doctrine of UR, but just understand it, then that is fine. But in your OP you mentioned pointing out "cracks" in the doctrine, I don't really see any cracks, not even from your 25 questions in the OP. My comment was simply to say that most people here have probably already investiaged these alleged "cracks" in the doctrines and found they are simply flaws in understanding. Most people here left ET beliefs because they started to study it for themselves, and the ET doctrine simply cannot survive an honest investigation in the light. It fails on logical, philisophical, and scriptural points.
Regarding free will, if you want a thorough examination of it logically and scripturally, look at this:
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
Hopefully you will begin to see that man's "free will" will not triumph over God's will, nor His love, nor His desire to save all humans.
Quote from: legoman on March 17, 2010, 08:44:23 PM
Hi again Theo,
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 12:58:15 AM
QuoteRomans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
(Theo) Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.
We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the likeness of his resurrection.
(Legoman) Oh dear. So God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, created the whole universe, even declared the end from the beginning, is simply "hoping" that things will work out? He is hoping the creation will liberate itself? :LH:
God is in control whether you like it or not Theo. Trust Him!
Why would you say a thing like that? "Whether I like it or not."
I am TRYING to understand something here.
Sorry, again I apologize if I offended. The point here is: who is really in control? If God is in control, and He wants all to be saved, then He will see to it that it happens. Certainly He is powerful enough to make it happen, no?
When I say "whether you like it or not", I'm really asking you to examine your beliefs here. And it appears you are open, and honestly are trying to understand things. So let us examine your belief.
If man, through his free will, can reject God forever, what does this say about God's will? What does this say about God's control? It is saying that man's will is superior to God's will. Man frustrates God forever at his own expense. (How could this even make sense?!? Man prefers eternal torment & suffering just to prove a point?!? Assuming man's will is stronger than God's?!?) So if this is true, under this belief system how much control does God have? Not a whole heck of a lot. Essentially Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, so that all would be saved, but in effect NONE are saved. The only thing that saves a man is his own free will decision. Under this belief system, ALL control is removed from God with respect to a man's salvation. God wants all to be saved, but none are saved unless the man says so.
Now do you see why I stated "God is in control whether you like it or not?" No intent to offend, only make you think.
Quote
(Legoman)QuoteHi Theo,
Sorry, I really did not think I was changing the thrust of what you were saying. I may have been in a bit of a sarcastic mood last night, so I apologize if I offended you - but I'm not sure what you are saying here then. Who is it who you think is hoping in the above verse?
The creation. "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
And where is this "glorious freedom of the children of God" "For freedom did Christ set us free." We are free IN CHRIST.
Yes I agree. The creation will only be freed through Christ. That is what Christ will do for EVERYONE, because Jesus is the savior of the world, who came to save the world, and take away the sins of all mankind so that all mankind would be saved and freed from the bondage of sin.
Quote
(logoman)Quote
Surely you see that Romans 8:20 says it is God who subjected the creation (which includes all humans) to frustration, correct? This was done without asking for our permission. And it is God who will liberate the creation (which again includes all humans) from its bondage to decay (sin and death)? Right? Again God doesn't need to ask our permission. :Sparkletooth:
This is the glorious hope. This is man's hope - specifically it is Paul saying "in hope". This is where our faith in God comes in, that we have faith and hope that God will actually do what He says: liberate the creation! It is teaching us faith.
What then is the reason for baptism into Christ? I do not ask what is its purpose, but what is the reasoning behind it? For surely you do not believe all men will be baptized into Christ.
All men will be baptized with fire. There is only one baptism. Baptism by fire. The water baptism we go through is a type or physical symbol of the spiritual baptism we must ALL go through.
Baptism by fire. Trials by fire. Purified by fire. The LAKE of fire. God's consuming fire. Its all one. Others here may have different views on this, but that is how I see it.
Quote
(logoman)Quote
That is the good news and I have faith and hope that He will do it! God says He will do it and I believe He can. God is the one who wants to save all mankind, and God is the one who says He will reconcile and restore all things. He can do it.
THAT is the question I have not seen an answer to as of yet. I see where God has instructed us to get into Christ to receive the blessings inherent with being in Christ, I do not see where all men will get into Christ. Are you saying many will be saved who never were "in Christ?"
All will eventually be in Christ, and ultimately in God, when God is ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:22-28).
Quote
(logoman)QuoteIn any case, as others have alluded to, maybe take a step back for a second. The arguments you raise here are really nothing new, so you may be fooling yourself if you think this is something the UR believer has not already considered for themself. You might want to read through here to see how your questions have already been answered in more ways than one:
http://tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Coming to tentmaker to tear down the doctrine of UR is surely an exercise in frustration... :Sparkletooth: Peace out...
Already been there. Only got more confused by all those translations, none of which are stamped "approved of God." As for Wittemore's "100 proofs" article, I debated that issue ten years ago. Still no response.
As for coming to the tentmaker site to tear down the doctrine, are you saying I should go on the CARM board to debate the issues? or get understanding on the issues? Where else would any honest person go but to the source? I WANT TO KNOW!
I do not want your enemies guesses. And I do not trust your enemies assessments as to what you teach.
No please please don't go to CARM. If you're intent is not tear down the doctrine of UR, but just understand it, then that is fine. But in your OP you mentioned pointing out "cracks" in the doctrine, I don't really see any cracks, not even from your 25 questions in the OP. My comment was simply to say that most people here have probably already investiaged these alleged "cracks" in the doctrines and found they are simply flaws in understanding. Most people here left ET beliefs because they started to study it for themselves, and the ET doctrine simply cannot survive an honest investigation in the light. It fails on logical, philisophical, and scriptural points.
Regarding free will, if you want a thorough examination of it logically and scripturally, look at this:
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
Hopefully you will begin to see that man's "free will" will not triumph over God's will, nor His love, nor His desire to save all humans.
I guess it is just time for me to move on. I see moderators introducing "trinity" and i am told it is not allowed; now YOU discuss free will, whcih I am told is not allowed.
How am I to respond with any degree of honesty if you guys are allowed to introduce concepts that I am not allowed to respond to?
I do not understand such a standard. OF COURSE you can defend "universal salvation"
if you eliminate "free will" from the discussion.
Of Course you can defend a trinity if you eliminate "trinitariansim" from the discussion.
As for "cracks" in my "twenty-five questions" allow me to hasten to point out it was really one question twenty five times; "If [a] then consequence
. I only changed the defininition of the consequences to show the widespread application of the question. The whole point is, if God's will cannot be thwarted, then he is totally responsible for every wrong thing ever done, BECAUSE only his will can be done; and I do not accept nor believe that.
I am trying to understand USAL and its possibilities without accusing God. So far, all I see is accusations against God.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 17, 2010, 09:23:32 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 17, 2010, 08:44:23 PM
Hi again Theo,
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 12:58:15 AM
QuoteRomans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
(Theo) Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.
We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the likeness of his resurrection.
(Legoman) Oh dear. So God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, created the whole universe, even declared the end from the beginning, is simply "hoping" that things will work out? He is hoping the creation will liberate itself? :LH:
God is in control whether you like it or not Theo. Trust Him!
Why would you say a thing like that? "Whether I like it or not."
I am TRYING to understand something here.
Sorry, again I apologize if I offended. The point here is: who is really in control? If God is in control, and He wants all to be saved, then He will see to it that it happens. Certainly He is powerful enough to make it happen, no?
When I say "whether you like it or not", I'm really asking you to examine your beliefs here. And it appears you are open, and honestly are trying to understand things. So let us examine your belief.
If man, through his free will, can reject God forever, what does this say about God's will? What does this say about God's control? It is saying that man's will is superior to God's will. Man frustrates God forever at his own expense. (How could this even make sense?!? Man prefers eternal torment & suffering just to prove a point?!? Assuming man's will is stronger than God's?!?) So if this is true, under this belief system how much control does God have? Not a whole heck of a lot. Essentially Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, so that all would be saved, but in effect NONE are saved. The only thing that saves a man is his own free will decision. Under this belief system, ALL control is removed from God with respect to a man's salvation. God wants all to be saved, but none are saved unless the man says so.
Now do you see why I stated "God is in control whether you like it or not?" No intent to offend, only make you think.
Quote
(Legoman)QuoteHi Theo,
Sorry, I really did not think I was changing the thrust of what you were saying. I may have been in a bit of a sarcastic mood last night, so I apologize if I offended you - but I'm not sure what you are saying here then. Who is it who you think is hoping in the above verse?
The creation. "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
And where is this "glorious freedom of the children of God" "For freedom did Christ set us free." We are free IN CHRIST.
Yes I agree. The creation will only be freed through Christ. That is what Christ will do for EVERYONE, because Jesus is the savior of the world, who came to save the world, and take away the sins of all mankind so that all mankind would be saved and freed from the bondage of sin.
Quote
(logoman)Quote
Surely you see that Romans 8:20 says it is God who subjected the creation (which includes all humans) to frustration, correct? This was done without asking for our permission. And it is God who will liberate the creation (which again includes all humans) from its bondage to decay (sin and death)? Right? Again God doesn't need to ask our permission. :Sparkletooth:
This is the glorious hope. This is man's hope - specifically it is Paul saying "in hope". This is where our faith in God comes in, that we have faith and hope that God will actually do what He says: liberate the creation! It is teaching us faith.
What then is the reason for baptism into Christ? I do not ask what is its purpose, but what is the reasoning behind it? For surely you do not believe all men will be baptized into Christ.
All men will be baptized with fire. There is only one baptism. Baptism by fire. The water baptism we go through is a type or physical symbol of the spiritual baptism we must ALL go through.
Baptism by fire. Trials by fire. Purified by fire. The LAKE of fire. God's consuming fire. Its all one. Others here may have different views on this, but that is how I see it.
Quote
(logoman)Quote
That is the good news and I have faith and hope that He will do it! God says He will do it and I believe He can. God is the one who wants to save all mankind, and God is the one who says He will reconcile and restore all things. He can do it.
THAT is the question I have not seen an answer to as of yet. I see where God has instructed us to get into Christ to receive the blessings inherent with being in Christ, I do not see where all men will get into Christ. Are you saying many will be saved who never were "in Christ?"
All will eventually be in Christ, and ultimately in God, when God is ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:22-28).
Quote
(logoman)QuoteIn any case, as others have alluded to, maybe take a step back for a second. The arguments you raise here are really nothing new, so you may be fooling yourself if you think this is something the UR believer has not already considered for themself. You might want to read through here to see how your questions have already been answered in more ways than one:
http://tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Coming to tentmaker to tear down the doctrine of UR is surely an exercise in frustration... :Sparkletooth: Peace out...
Already been there. Only got more confused by all those translations, none of which are stamped "approved of God." As for Wittemore's "100 proofs" article, I debated that issue ten years ago. Still no response.
As for coming to the tentmaker site to tear down the doctrine, are you saying I should go on the CARM board to debate the issues? or get understanding on the issues? Where else would any honest person go but to the source? I WANT TO KNOW!
I do not want your enemies guesses. And I do not trust your enemies assessments as to what you teach.
No please please don't go to CARM. If you're intent is not tear down the doctrine of UR, but just understand it, then that is fine. But in your OP you mentioned pointing out "cracks" in the doctrine, I don't really see any cracks, not even from your 25 questions in the OP. My comment was simply to say that most people here have probably already investiaged these alleged "cracks" in the doctrines and found they are simply flaws in understanding. Most people here left ET beliefs because they started to study it for themselves, and the ET doctrine simply cannot survive an honest investigation in the light. It fails on logical, philisophical, and scriptural points.
Regarding free will, if you want a thorough examination of it logically and scripturally, look at this:
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
Hopefully you will begin to see that man's "free will" will not triumph over God's will, nor His love, nor His desire to save all humans.
I guess it is just time for me to move on. I see moderators introducing "trinity" and i am told it is not allowed; now YOU discuss free will, whcih I am told is not allowed.
How am I to respond with any degree of honesty if you guys are allowed to introduce concepts that I am not allowed to respond to?
I do not understand such a standard. OF COURSE you can defend "universal salvation"
if you eliminate "free will" from the discussion.
Of Course you can defend a trinity if you eliminate "trinitariansim" from the discussion.
Hi Theo,
I think it is up to the moderators discretion. I think some minimal discussion of free will may be allowed, but if it turns into "doctrine bashing" or a "food fight" then it will be blocked. But we can discuss concepts without mentioning "free will" specifically.
I would say respond away, and let the mods sort it out. Mods, please let me know if I am out of line.
But the moment this turns into a bashfest, you can expect the mods to step in. If we keep it respectful, we can continue to discuss. As far as I know the only reason "free will" is not allowed is because discussions can tend to degenerate into flame wars.
Also, you can always PM me directly if you want to discuss free will in depth. Mods don't moderate there I believe.
Quote
As for "cracks" in my "twenty-five questions" allow me to hasten to point out it was really one question twenty five times; "If [a] then consequence . I only changed the defininition of the consequences to show the widespread application of the question. The whole point is, if God's will cannot be thwarted, then he is totally responsible for every wrong thing ever done, BECAUSE only his will can be done; and I do not accept nor believe that.
I am trying to understand USAL and its possibilities without accusing God. So far, all I see is accusations against God.
I don't see what you mean by accusing God?!? No one is doing that. What we may do is question a
view or idea about God. But yes, God is responsible for everything in the end. He is the only one who can be.
I hope to go through your 25 questions OP in detail later. I actually think it is not "one question" but "two questions". Hopefully you will see what I mean when I explain later.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 17, 2010, 09:23:32 PM
I guess it is just time for me to move on. I see moderators introducing "trinity" and i am told it is not allowed; now YOU discuss free will, whcih I am told is not allowed.
Theo, It's not that black and white.
It's for example not allowed to start a topic: "Man has absolute free will". Then you really focus on the subject.
But if you write a reply with say 20 verses of all kinds it's not forbidden to mention along with 1 verse 'because God gave men free will". It's a fine line to walk. I'm sure mods correct me if I'm wrong.....
QuoteI do not understand such a standard. OF COURSE you can defend "universal salvation"
if you eliminate "free will" from the discussion.
Very clever Theo. You're starting to understand :thumbsup: You just made your point without saying the bad words :laughing7:
QuoteOf Course you can defend a trinity if you eliminate "trinitariansim" from the discussion.
Again as I understand it: UR being true or false doesn't depend on Trinity or not.
QuoteAs for "cracks" in my "twenty-five questions" allow me to hasten to point out it was really one question twenty five times; "If [a] then consequence . I only changed the defininition of the consequences to show the widespread application of the question. The whole point is, if God's will cannot be thwarted, then he is totally responsible for every wrong thing ever done, BECAUSE only his will can be done; and I do not accept nor believe that.
I am trying to understand USAL and its possibilities without accusing God. So far, all I see is accusations against God.
We have forums member who believe in Trinity and who do not. We have members believing in zero free will and some (that still leads to where Gods wants it). Guess what... there is also disagrement over the evil part.
I suggest you take a look Here (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6497.0) and here (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1550.0)
QuoteI guess it is just time for me to move on.
Don't do that Theo.... :sigh:
willieH: Hi TB... :laughing7:
This topic is a bit on the "trollish" side, ...but because we at Tentmaker are a welcoming bunch, it deserves to be addressed in the name of welcome... :friendstu:
Btw... before I begin... Welcome to Tentmaker, TB :welcome:... God has brought you here to
LEARN... the big question is... will you? :dontknow:
Basically the answer to ALL your questions is --
YES -- and in your endeavor to "trip" the truth (as was attempted by the Pharisees with
CHRIST), shall your "attempt" herein, fail... :happygrin:
And if you bother to completely read my answer to you, ...you will in all likelihood, become frustrated because your attempt to refute the Salvation of ALL, herein fails... but, as I have already suggested to you --- an OPPORTUNITY is given you, for GOD has led you here to
LEARN... :friendstu: ...and we here at TM shall hope you "have your EARS on" :JCThink: as freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"... :director:
The question I have for you, TB... is shall you
LEARN from this failure to refute "UR", or will you attempt to sidestep it? :dontknow:
Let us begin, shall we? :reachout:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM
I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;
1) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, [Gen 3:6] in the garden, it must have been God's will.
YES --
YHVH God works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL --
Eph 1:11Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM2) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve gave to her husband, Adam, and he did eat, also, [Gen 3:6] it must have been God's will.
YES (see # 1) -- also... this event is IN the
WORD, and the
WORD which
preceeded the event, must needs occur as noted IN the
WORD which
preceeded the event... :wink3:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM3) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if cain killed Able, [Gen 4:8] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... the "murder" of Abel is part of the
WORD which does NOT CHANGE... and so that "murder" which was PART of the THINGS NOT YET DONE --
Isaiah 46:10 -- had to occur, for the Scriptures
[WORD] -- CANNOT be BROKEN --
John 10:34 -- the
WORD has NO VARIANCE --
James 1:17 -- and is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever --
Heb 13:8Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM4) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the sons of God came in unto the daughter's of men, [Gen 6:4] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... God made woman, to be an HELP, ...meet to MAN, without qualification (in every way) --
Gen 2:20 -- That "help" was not limited or described, so it stands as "help" in every way that MAN needed "help"... do you doubt the
WORD which states this? :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM5) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,[Gen 6:5] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... God sends man into CAPTIVITY --
Jer 29:14 -- that He might DELIVER him FROM IT... as well as CONCLUDE ALL in UNBELIEF --
Rom 11:32 -- that He might have MERCY upon ALL -- are you getting any of this, TB? :laughing7:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM6) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will
YES (see #1) -- also... GOD
created EVIL as well as GOOD --
Isaiah 45:7 -- and the KNOWLEDGE of IT, is HIS --
Gen 3:22 -- to have KNOWLEDGE of IT, must therefore be a DIVINE thing... which MANY (likely such as yourself), think to be OPPOSING DIVINITY!
How could something which is INHERENT
within the Heart of GOD (knowledge of G & E), be OTHER than DIVINE, TB? :dunno:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM7) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.
YES (see #1) -- also...
(1) use or translation of the word "forever" is INVALID, for until one can COMPLETELY define the word -- (which includes WITHOUT BEGINNING -- by explaining how something has NO BEGINNING, to include why and how that, ...IS?)... Use of the word FOREVER by any finite which does not comprehend said meaning, is therefore INVALID.
(2) GOD shall establish ISRAEL for ever, ...for "ISRAEL" are His Sons, which are without beginning or end... For ALL His SONS were WITH Him, BEFORE entering this realm --
Luke 15:11-32 -- Job 38:7 They
ARE the
BODY of CHRIST, and
ARE His TEMPLE (neither of which CHANGE), and the WILL of GOD is found in them (1st CAPTIVITY, and 2nd FREEDOM which is the natural ORDER of the DIVINE --
1 Cor 15:46) thereby establishing the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL in His SONS, one of which was/is -- Saul
(3) -- GOD does
NOT CHANGE --
Mal 3:6 -- so "HIS WILL" for Saul cannot CHANGE, otherwise the
WORD --
Heb 13:8 --
and Mal 3:6 -- are both compromised.
(4) it is part of GOD's will in CONCLUDING UNBELIEF upon ALL (which means they shall negate in their living process, that which is commanded by Him) -- in order to have MERCY upon ALL...
In verse 14 -- it speaks of that that which
YHVH commanded was
not kept... and it is meant to be so, manifest within UNBELIEF of said doer, which did NOT "keep"...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM8) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If David committed adultry with Bath-sheba, [2 Sam 11:4] it must have been god's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... man devises his way (as did David in this example), but GOD orders the STEPS of man --
Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:21 -- Jer 10:23 -- will you BELIEVE what the
WORD, PLAINLY states in MULTIPLE verses, bringing its LIGHT, ...TB? Or shall you cling to your own darkened "opinions"?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM9) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If, of all the many thousands who came out of Egypt, in the great exodus, only two made it to the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb)[Num 14:30,38] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... how do you continue to think that the DIVINE WILL of the ALMIGHTY can be neutralized by His own Creation? What "faith" is seen in this? The prerequisite NUMBER which eventually PHYSICALLY entered the "promised land" is not specified is it?
Where is the Prophecy noted that only TWO of the entire nation of ISRAEL should enter the promised land? Also... MOSES was not one of them... is this your conclusion as well, TB? That because MOSES did not enter PHYSICALLY, ...he therefore SHALL NEVER ENTER?
What of this, TB?
---> Rom 11:26 --
and so ...ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED, as IS WRITTEN, there shall come out of Zion, the DELIVERER and shall turn AWAY ungodliness from JACOB...This includes the ENTIRE nation which did NOT enter into the PROMISED land. Only those CHOSEN to ENTER into the Kingdom [promised land] IN this life, shall do so IN THIS LIFE... It does not say that those who do not enter, shall NEVER enter.
Do you believe this Scripture, TB? --
John 1:29 --
behold that Lamb of God which ...TAKETH AWAY... the SIN... of the WORLDIf the SIN of THE
WORLD, ...is "taken
AWAY"... Then what remains to accuse? :dontknow:
You can't have your cake & eat it too bro... :sigh:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM10) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Moses came down off the mount, and saw the children of israel dancing around a God they had made for themselves, [Num 32] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- If it is WRITTEN in the
WORD (which it IS!) ...which preceeds the event, then it WAS to BE so, ...well BEFORE it actually occured... are you getting the CLEANSING SPIRITUAL picture yet, TB? Or shall you continue wallowing in the CARNAL RELIGIOUS mud, given you? Must I continue this? :dunno2:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM11) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If all men sin and come short of the glory of God; [Rom 3:23] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... How can one be DELIVERED from something [sin] that one, needs no deliverance from? ALL sinned, and ALL are delivered from it.
ALL
are IN ADAM [and therefore SINNERS], TB --
1 Cor 15:22 -- as well
AS the SAME "ALL"
are IN CHRIST [and therefore DELIVERED]
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM12) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, [Acts 7:51] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... you only display YOURSELF and your RELIGION by noting this, bro... You must therefore NEGATE the words of PAUL in
Rom 11:26 -- in order to continue to facilitate this belief.
"ALWAYS" in this context, simply means that:
(1) these have YET to be drawn to the SON and,
(2) shall remain so until their DUE TIME --
1 Tim 2:6 -- and,
(3) are therefore YET to bow at the KNEE and CONFESS with the tongue --
Phil 2:10-11 -- John 6:44 It cannot mean "ALWAYS" in the sense you propose, for the word ALWAYS is a word such as NEVER, and FOREVER... meaning that PRIOR to being stiffnecked, these were stiffnecked... :pointlaugh: -- for they were "ALWAYS" stiffnecked, eh?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM13) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews stoned Stephen, [Acts 7:60] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... If it is WRITTEN in His
WORD (which it IS), then prior to the stoning, the scenario was SET, and could therefore NOT be avoided, otherwise the
WORD in which it is WRITTEN and which NEVER CHANGES, is therefore compromised... Are you getting it yet, TB?
Okay... enough.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM14) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if evil men put you out of the synagogue, and even kill you, they will think they do God a service, [John 16:2-3] but it must have been God's will.
15) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews rebelled against God, and cast down his law behind their backs, and slew the prophets, and wrought great provocation, [Neh 9:26] it must have been God's will.
16) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Pharoah slew all the male children of Israel, [Exo 1:16] it must have been God's will.
17) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Herod slew all the children of Bethlehem, and in all the costs thereof, from two years old and under, [Mat 2:16] it must have been God's will.
18) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.
19) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Sapphira, his wife joined him in his deed, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.
20) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Satan was a liar from the beginning, [John 8:44] it must have been God's will.
21) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Peter betrayed his Lord with denial, [Mat 26:75] it must have been God's will.
22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a god of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?
23) And if God's will cannot be overturned, or thwarted, why should wives submit to their own husbands, children obey their parents, murderers be punished, and etc. ad nauseum? God's will is, after all, behind it all.
24) And if God is love, and I preach that he is a God of vengeance, what difference does it make to you, it is God's will.
25) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, he becomes directly responsible for all the sin, murder, adultry, lying, cheating, stealing, every evil thing man has ever done. there can be no "repentance, (which God wills that every man repent), because how can a man 'repent" of doing god's will
YES to all these, (see #1)
If you haven't gotten it by now you shall not get it...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AMDo you begin to see just a wee crakc in the doctrine, yet? There is plenty more where this came from. Because, after all, it is God's will that I break down this doctrine, and so I must. And for you to intervene, is to frustrate God's will.
It is GOD's WILL that you try to expose a "wee crakc"... and that you FAIL in doing so... That this FAILURE has been shown, is HIS WILL... and NOTHING can frustrate or alter the
WILL of
YHVH God, for He is ALMIGHTY... and you, as you continue in human arrogance, think as CLAY to dictate your "will" to the POTTER, failing to KNOW that your arrogance (marring of the clay that is you) is a product of His SHAPING of You, that you one day, shall be humbled before Him --
Jer 18:4You have hardly done what you propose to have done, on the contrary... If something is IN the Creation of GOD, then it IS HIS CREATION... to include both the OBEDIENCE and DISOBEDIENCE to His COMMAND... including the doings of GOOD and EVIL, for these are HIS KNOWLEDGE... KNOWN by HIM! :thumbsup:
Gen 3:22 --
behold the MAN has become AS one of us... to KNOW Good and Evil...It is therefore, DIVINE to
KNOW ...Good
AND Evil... which are TWO sides of the very SAME KNOWLEDGE. (double edged sword)
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AMDo I await your response
Theophilus Book
You have received it, ...now I await yours... :friendstu: And please be a little more DETAILED (as you required of us) in your answer, than YOU in consolidating an entire answer, have done with others in this discussion...
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: legoman on March 17, 2010, 09:45:23 PMI don't see what you mean by accusing God?!? No one is doing that.
If you say God has absolute control over every atom in His creation it also means God created/initiated all sins. I think that's what Theo is saying. Right Theo?
If so I again point to the threads mentioned in my previous post. Plus a verse to concider:
KJVExo 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
The verse is about killing. I is not man. It's God or if you wish someone under command of God.
Did God kill?
KJVExo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Is killing a sin?
Does Exo 12:12 make God a sinner?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 17, 2010, 10:11:27 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 17, 2010, 09:45:23 PMI don't see what you mean by accusing God?!? No one is doing that.
If you say God has absolute control over every atom in His creation it also means God created/initiated all sins. I think that's what Theo is saying. Right Theo?
If so I again point to the threads mentioned in my previous post. Plus a verse to concider:
KJVExo 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
The verse is about killing. I is not man. It's God or if you wish someone under command of God.
Did God kill?
KJVExo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Is killing a sin?
Does Exo 12:12 make God a sinner?
Yes I get what you are saying. However I believe Exodus 20:13 is thou shalt not MURDER. Murder is unlawful killing. Certainly there are many examples where God kills or causes the killing of people. Yet none of these cases are unlawful killing, none of these cases are murder. So God does not sin. God has the power to KILL and make ALIVE. He will indeed make all alive one day (1 Cor 15:22-28).
Everything God does He does for a good reason, and it will ultimately benefit the creation as a whole, which includes those who may temporarily be harmed (or even killed). Now it is silly to say we are accusing God by saying God is in control of everything. It is simply rightly acknowledging the power that God has.
Certainly God has control over every atom in the universe. Certainly God can bend the will of a king however He pleases (Prov 21:1). Certainly God has ordained the powers that be including all government (Romans 13:1-2). So certainly this would include God ordaining that HITLER had power in Germany.
Now since God could have stopped the atrocities of Hitler (and other ruthless world leaders), but did not, and in fact ordainied that their power be... what does this say about God? It says that God is in control.
But it is silly to say this is an "accusation" of God, by suggesting it was wrong for God to ordain that Hitler be in power. Clearly God had a purpose - a good purpose - for this to happen. This does not mean that God is evil. Because God will use these things for an even greater good. We may not understand exactly how, but it will be so.
Look at Joseph and his 12 brothers who intended to kill him. Yet God
intended it for good (Genesis 50:20)! The whole thing was God's intention. Do you get that? God
intended for Joseph's brothers to try to kill him! It was God's plan all along: God intended for Joseph's brothers to fail at killing him, and instead sell him into slavery. And God intended for Joseph to eventually save his brothers when the famine came along years later. God works in ways we cannot fully fathom, but they ultimately result in a greater good for everyone.
I make no accusation against God by saying He is in control of everything.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:54:54 AM
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 02:46:20 AM
Its God's will for us all to be disobedient so He can have mercy on us all, so we will ultimately all be obedient. Then we'll all be saved. :thumbsup:
So you worship a God that wants us all to suffer the pangs of guilt, torment each other with awful behaviours and terrible revengeful things, just so he can pardon us?
I don't worship such a God. I worship the God Jesus worshipped.
The GOD that
JESUS worshipped, caused a FLOOD which destroyed everything, except the contents of an ARK!
I think you are uneducated (no offense) as to the PURPOSE of GOD, which is availed and REVEALED, in this life, TB.
This life is, via LIVING EXPERIENCE, ...is an intended experiential exposure of the results of what happens when GOD'S COMMANDS [GOOD] are DISOBEYED [EVIL]... which bring forth, DEATH, suffering, pain, loss, sorrow, etc... as these DISOBEDIENCES are SOWN...
Like EVERYTHING about
YHVH GOD... His KNOWLEDGE is LIVING... which contains BOTH, ...Good and Evil...
It is MAJESTIC to be a SON of
YHVH, and to be INVOLVED in this OPEN display before ALL LIVING entities... of this KNOWLEDGE which
IS actively proceeding from the Heart of GOD...
EVIL is the portion of His ETERNAL KNOWLEDGE which is only given to be TEMPORARILY LIVED in this EARTHLY realm... that in its REVELATION, ...
GOOD might BE --- FOREVER exalted and LIVED, in the ETERNAL Heavenly realm of
YHVH God...
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: legoman on March 17, 2010, 10:28:42 PM
Yes I get what you are saying. However I believe Exodus 20:13 is thou shalt not MURDER.
Kill in KJV. But indeed murder in several other (literal) translations.
QuoteMurder is unlawful killing.
And because God is (above) the law, His wishes are always law and therefore His action are never unlawful. Right?
QuoteLook at Joseph and his 12 brothers who intended to kill him. Yet God intended it for good (Genesis 50:20)! The whole thing was God's intention. Do you get that?
Yes Sir. Lego Sir! :laughing7:
I got it long ago. It's written. (but still problematic for me)
QuoteI make no accusation against God by saying He is in control of everything.
Never intended to say that. If I only knew one common factor of all Tenties it would be that they see Father/Son/HS as the uttermost highest standard of perfection.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 17, 2010, 10:47:53 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 17, 2010, 10:28:42 PM
Yes I get what you are saying. However I believe Exodus 20:13 is thou shalt not MURDER.
Kill in KJV. But indeed murder in several other (literal) translations.
QuoteMurder is unlawful killing.
And because God is (above) the law, His wishes are always law and therefore His action are never unlawful. Right?
Yes, but not because "might makes right", but just because they are right. Regarding "lawful" killing, here are some examples: you may need to kill someone in self-defence; if a judge sentences someone to the death sentence, then that would be "lawful" killing; or you may be in some strange situation where you can only save one person or another, but not both. etc. Any killing that God does or causes is always lawful, because He always intends it for a good reason, AND He has the power to restore the person(s) who are killed.
Note in general a human cannot usually do "lawful" killing, unless it was one of the examples I gave above. Humans should not kill people for a "greater good", because they have no power to ensure the greater good will happen.
Quote
QuoteLook at Joseph and his 12 brothers who intended to kill him. Yet God intended it for good (Genesis 50:20)! The whole thing was God's intention. Do you get that?
Yes Sir. Lego Sir! :laughing7:
I got it long ago. It's written. (but still problematic for me)
Yes I know you got it WW, it was just a rhetorical question... :bigGrin:
Quote
QuoteI make no accusation against God by saying He is in control of everything.
Never intended to say that. If I only knew one common factor of all Tenties it would be that they see Father/Son/HS as the uttermost highest standard of perfection.
My response wasn't to you necessarily WW, but just in general, and more towards Theo. But I think you got my point!
Cheers...
Quote legoman "I think it is up to the moderators discretion. I think some minimal discussion of free will may be allowed, but if it turns into "doctrine bashing" or a "food fight" then it will be blocked. But we can discuss concepts without mentioning "free will" specifically.
I would say respond away, and let the mods sort it out. Mods, please let me know if I am out of line.
But the moment this turns into a bashfest, you can expect the mods to step in. If we keep it respectful, we can continue to discuss. As far as I know the only reason "free will" is not allowed is because discussions can tend to degenerate into flame wars.
Also, you can always PM me directly if you want to discuss free will in depth. Mods don't moderate there I believe." End quote
-----------------------------
Yes, there are ways to discuss our views without turning it into a direct debate. For example; person a) "I believe God made that decision based on X scripture, and this is how I believe it works and why"; person b) "I believe man made that decision based on X scripture, and this is how I believe it works and why".
Right, too many fruitless arguments, creating strife, division, namecalling, etc. A decision was made awhile back that things will not be allowed to even approach that level of dischord.
And yes, PM is encouraged at any time things need to be discussed more indepth than an open board may allow - and no, the PM's are not monitored or moderated. The only exception to that is if it is brought to our attention (with proof) that someone is being abusive, etc.
Admittedly I have only mostly scanned the posts today, but i haven't seen any of the mods bring up the "trinity doctrine"... :dontknow:
:bigGrin:
With love in my heart I say to you all - Quit apologizing. I am not offended. I just want to know what you mean by your remarks. It is quite possible you hit the nail right on the head. My question is so I can determine when I step out of line, not to point out that YOU are stepping out of line. THAT I can deal with with patience and love.
(LegoMan)
Quote
If man, through his free will, can reject God forever, what does this say about God's will? What does this say about God's control? It is saying that man's will is superior to God's will. Man frustrates God forever at his own expense. (How could this even make sense?!? Man prefers eternal torment & suffering just to prove a point?!? Assuming man's will is stronger than God's?!?) So if this is true, under this belief system how much control does God have? Not a whole heck of a lot. Essentially Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, so that all would be saved, but in effect NONE are saved. The only thing that saves a man is his own free will decision. Under this belief system, ALL control is removed from God with respect to a man's salvation. God wants all to be saved, but none are saved unless the man says so.
Allow an illustration. God/Man - Father/Son - YOU/YOUR SON
YOU to Son: "Where would you like to go today to celebrate your birthday?"
Son: "To Uncle Henry's for cake and ice Cream and lots of friends to share with."
YOU: "What flavour Ice Cream, what kind of cake?"
Son: "Chocolate."
YOU: "Cake?" or "Ice Cream?"
Son: "Both."
YOU: "Too much Chocolate." Choose another flavor for one of them."
Son: "Aw, Dad, You know how I love Chocolate. Just for today for my birthday?" "Please!"
YOU: "Well.l.l.l.l.l..."
Son: "Thanks Dad." "I'll go get the invitations ready to send out."
This was no contest of control. It was a simple plea for special consideration. In the above illustration, what is YOUR will? less chocolate, for healthy considerations.
Whose will is major? Whose minor? Yours controls. Yet son has his way. What happened? Did Son over rule YOU? No. He has not the authority. He pleaded his case for special consideration. He wopn you over for a particular situation. What was the issue as far as YOUR will goes, in the illustration? Was it to maintain healthy standards for children at a party? Or was it to please your son on his birthday. Both. without the special plea from your son, you would have had your way with health issue AND maintained happy result with son.
That is similar, in my opinion, with some things God has designed for us to do, and then we pray earnestly for some modification, which he grants just because he wants to make us happy.
Other times, he wants specific results and guides our walk with every kind of issue. We stubbornly try to persuade with prayer, pouting, sullen behaviour, until finally we resort to outright rebellion. Then when we do what we want to knowing it is NOT God's will, or worse, when we know it is CONTRARY TO God's will (not the same thing) God allows us to continue to the point we fall into the consequences of our choices of action.
THAT is how God treated Israel in the wilderness for forty years, after leaving Egypt. He said "I tested you to see if you would obey or not." [Deu 8:2]
(logoman)
Quote
Surely you see that Romans 8:20 says it is God who subjected the creation (which includes all humans) to frustration, correct? This was done without asking for our permission. And it is God who will liberate the creation (which again includes all humans) from its bondage to decay (sin and death)? Right? Again God doesn't need to ask our permission. :Sparkletooth:
This is the glorious hope. This is man's hope - specifically it is Paul saying "in hope". This is where our faith in God comes in, that we have faith and hope that God will actually do what He says: liberate the creation! It is teaching us faith.
Again a familiar illustration, a man and his son. When your son begins to learn to talk, walk, reach, and investigate the wonders of the world around him, you determine certain parameters of behaviour based on safety, character building and love. But, YOU DON'T AKS WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT IT. HE HAS NO INPUT. So also God does not need to ask us what is good for us. We know only what we want. He knows what we need.
(Theo)
Quote
What then is the reason for baptism into Christ? I do not ask what is its purpose, but what is the reasoning behind it? For surely you do not believe all men will be baptized into Christ.
(LegoMan)
All men will be baptized with fire. There is only one baptism. Baptism by fire. The water baptism we go through is a type or physical symbol of the spiritual baptism we must ALL go through.
Baptism by fire. Trials by fire. Purified by fire. The LAKE of fire. God's consuming fire. Its all one. Others here may have different views on this, but that is how I see it.
Hmmm???
I have never heard of the baptism of fire being the only one baptism. I will certainly give THAT some serious thought.
(Legoman)
Quote
All will eventually be in Christ, and ultimately in God, when God is ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:22-28).
THAT is precisely the purpose of living your life so that it is no longer YOU that lives, but CHRIST lives IN YOU. [Gal 2:20][II Cor 13:5][Col 1:25-27]
(legoman)
Quote
I think it is up to the moderators discretion. I think some minimal discussion of free will may be allowed, but if it turns into "doctrine bashing" or a "food fight" then it will be blocked. But we can discuss concepts without mentioning "free will" specifically.
I would say respond away, and let the mods sort it out. Mods, please let me know if I am out of line.
But the moment this turns into a bashfest, you can expect the mods to step in. If we keep it respectful, we can continue to discuss. As far as I know the only reason "free will" is not allowed is because discussions can tend to degenerate into flame wars.
Also, you can always PM me directly if you want to discuss free will in depth. Mods don't moderate there I believe.
I don't. The only time I need to discuss free will is in the middle of other themes.
like USalv.
(Theo)
Quote
As for "cracks" in my "twenty-five questions" allow me to hasten to point out it was really one question twenty five times; "If [a] then consequence . I only changed the defininition of the consequences to show the widespread application of the question. The whole point is, if God's will cannot be thwarted, then he is totally responsible for every wrong thing ever done, BECAUSE only his will can be done; and I do not accept nor believe that.
I am trying to understand USAL and its possibilities without accusing God. So far, all I see is accusations against God.
(logoman)I don't see what you mean by accusing God?!? No one is doing that. What we may do is question a view or idea about God. But yes, God is responsible for everything in the end. He is the only one who can be.
I guess that is a matter of perspective. Have you really looked at the doctrine page that deals with God not warning Israel about eternal punishment? It is full of accusations agaisnt God if in fact hell is true and he did not warn them. THAT was the issue I was riled about.
(legoman)
QuoteI hope to go through your 25 questions OP in detail later. I actually think it is not "one question" but "two questions". Hopefully you will see what I mean when I explain later.
o.k.
Hi Theo,
I don't think you can compare an earthly father/son relationship with heavenly Father/earthly son relationship. Jesus said that the Father loves us much more than we could ever love our children and he won't let us do anything that would keep us from salvation.
You described how the son minuplated the weak Father to get what he wanted even though the Father knew too much chocolate could make the son sick or knew it wasn't good for him. I don't think God is like that.
If the crucifixion of Jesus was planned before we were ever created, then God had a plan that included us all and he will see to it that not one little thing is done to thwart that plan. What is that plan? (1John 4:14) "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world". (1Cor. 15:22) For as in Adam all die,even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE.
CHB
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 07:21:32 PM"salt water Taffy turns my stomache"
Theo hopefully you didn't harden this (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=117) heart :laughing7:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 17, 2010, 09:23:32 PM
I do not understand such a standard. OF COURSE you can defend "universal salvation"
if you eliminate "free will" from the discussion.
Of Course you can defend a trinity if you eliminate "trinitariansim" from the discussion.
I would not argue with that point at all, I bring up free will personally and I play it like I play sports and let the referee call it. ;)
What I usually say is that the issue of free will as a "term" is irrelevant. I will discuss the implication of scripture and what it says about our will and Gods.
Free will is largely misrepresented from either side because many people think specific arguments are what will hinge a doctrine as true or not.
It hard to wrap our minds around the knowledge of God in the first place, let alone the idea that we can make choices out of our own will based upon the information we have gathered as an individual up to that poinT AND not ever being able to be lost forever.
We are free in this country, yet, we are not free getting caught or suffering the consequenses of our actions.
If you get framed and are in prison, your free will in that sense is irrelevant and moot, completely meaningless. You do however have the freedom to make the best of the situation.
You may have the free will to start using drugs and continue to make your life a mess, but that does not mean at some point and time when your path has taken you to the darkest regions of destruction that you will not one day see and recognize and accept Gods extended hand and see that it was there all along. God knows what you need to learn and the fact that people act in destructive ways and some do not only means that we each have different things to learn in order to be saved and obtain the knowledge of truth.
That is the true nature of our will.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 18, 2010, 04:45:22 AM
With love in my heart I say to you all - Quit apologizing. I am not offended. I just want to know what you mean by your remarks. It is quite possible you hit the nail right on the head. My question is so I can determine when I step out of line, not to point out that YOU are stepping out of line. THAT I can deal with with patience and love.
LOL ok. :laughing7:
Quote
(LegoMan)Quote
If man, through his free will, can reject God forever, what does this say about God's will? What does this say about God's control? It is saying that man's will is superior to God's will. Man frustrates God forever at his own expense. (How could this even make sense?!? Man prefers eternal torment & suffering just to prove a point?!? Assuming man's will is stronger than God's?!?) So if this is true, under this belief system how much control does God have? Not a whole heck of a lot. Essentially Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, so that all would be saved, but in effect NONE are saved. The only thing that saves a man is his own free will decision. Under this belief system, ALL control is removed from God with respect to a man's salvation. God wants all to be saved, but none are saved unless the man says so.
Allow an illustration. God/Man - Father/Son - YOU/YOUR SON
YOU to Son: "Where would you like to go today to celebrate your birthday?"
Son: "To Uncle Henry's for cake and ice Cream and lots of friends to share with."
YOU: "What flavour Ice Cream, what kind of cake?"
Son: "Chocolate."
YOU: "Cake?" or "Ice Cream?"
Son: "Both."
YOU: "Too much Chocolate." Choose another flavor for one of them."
Son: "Aw, Dad, You know how I love Chocolate. Just for today for my birthday?" "Please!"
YOU: "Well.l.l.l.l.l..."
Son: "Thanks Dad." "I'll go get the invitations ready to send out."
This was no contest of control. It was a simple plea for special consideration. In the above illustration, what is YOUR will? less chocolate, for healthy considerations.
Whose will is major? Whose minor? Yours controls. Yet son has his way. What happened? Did Son over rule YOU? No. He has not the authority. He pleaded his case for special consideration. He wopn you over for a particular situation. What was the issue as far as YOUR will goes, in the illustration? Was it to maintain healthy standards for children at a party? Or was it to please your son on his birthday. Both. without the special plea from your son, you would have had your way with health issue AND maintained happy result with son.
That is similar, in my opinion, with some things God has designed for us to do, and then we pray earnestly for some modification, which he grants just because he wants to make us happy.
Other times, he wants specific results and guides our walk with every kind of issue. We stubbornly try to persuade with prayer, pouting, sullen behaviour, until finally we resort to outright rebellion. Then when we do what we want to knowing it is NOT God's will, or worse, when we know it is CONTRARY TO God's will (not the same thing) God allows us to continue to the point we fall into the consequences of our choices of action.
THAT is how God treated Israel in the wilderness for forty years, after leaving Egypt. He said "I tested you to see if you would obey or not." [Deu 8:2]
Like CHB said, its hard to compare God who is unlimted to an earthly Father who is limited in what he can know and do. Consider this: what if the Father intended all along for the kid to eat too much chocolate ice cream, so the kid would learn the consequences of indulging too much?
Unlike the parent in your example, God knows exactly what the child will do in the given situation. God created the child including the instincts and decision-making brain of the child, so God knows exactly what the child will do.
I don't believe we can pray for anything that will "modify" God's plans. I do believe we should pray according to God's will, and if it is God's will it will be granted. I don't think God does things "just to make us happy". Yes He does have our well-being in mind, yet He already knows how it is all going to turn out - He has planned it that way. We don't modify God's plans. God modifies our plans! JMHO but this is what I see in scripture.
Quote
(Theo)Quote
What then is the reason for baptism into Christ? I do not ask what is its purpose, but what is the reasoning behind it? For surely you do not believe all men will be baptized into Christ.
(LegoMan)
All men will be baptized with fire. There is only one baptism. Baptism by fire. The water baptism we go through is a type or physical symbol of the spiritual baptism we must ALL go through.
Baptism by fire. Trials by fire. Purified by fire. The LAKE of fire. God's consuming fire. Its all one. Others here may have different views on this, but that is how I see it.
Hmmm???
I have never heard of the baptism of fire being the only one baptism. I will certainly give THAT some serious thought.
This is what scripture says:
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—
5 one Lord, one faith,
one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Not two baptisms (water and fire), but just one (fire). First the physical, then the spiritual. The water baptism is a shadow of the fire baptism to come.
QuoteThat is similar, in my opinion, with some things God has designed for us to do, and then we pray earnestly for some modification, which he grants just because he wants to make us happy.
I see it a bit like selling something. Set your price and add 20%. The buyer starts bargaining and get 20% off. The buyer happy with his 'discount' and the seller cashes the indended 100%
Pehaps God sometimes also works that way. The difference is that God after bargaining always exactly gets the 100%
Just a thought... :-)
QuoteThis is what scripture says:
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Not two baptisms (water and fire), but just one (fire). First the physical, then the spiritual. The water baptism is a shadow of the fire baptism to come.
Hi Legoman
I am sort of confused by your statement above , though one baptism
by the Lord is fire
I do see the water baptism that comes first , in everyone that comes to Christ , Paul is speaking of those in Christ already ,, to the church / Body of believers in Ephesius of the Holy Spirit and fire Baptism ,
the water baptism
its is the fruits meet for repentance we have to do these first works first .... or do you believe this is only for the Jews ?
some say Jews only , but I am not certain it is just for Jews because we all have to repent first before we are even able to recive the Holy Spirit baptism
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose:
he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: here Paul speaks of both
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul,
John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard [this],
they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
for me we all goe though the water first and than the fire
maybe thats the twice dead that in Jude we can see a little better
they were not undergoing the baptism of repentance
nor the same baptism of Death in the Lord ?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore
we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. I will consider your reply
thanks
here is the twice dead
they never repented nor have suffered for doing Gods will like Jesus in glorifying God
just some thoughts to consider ..
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit,
twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM
I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;
1) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, [Gen 3:6] in the garden, it must have been God's will.
2) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve gave to her husband, Adam, and he did eat, also, [Gen 3:6] it must have been God's will.
3) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if cain killed Able, [Gen 4:8] it must have been God's will.
4) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the sons of God came in unto the daughter's of men, [Gen 6:4] it must have been God's will.
5) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,[Gen 6:5] it must have been God's will.
6) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will
Yes these were all God's will.
Quote
7) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.
God does not will something to happen that will frustrate his will. That would make God completely contradictory to Himself. However, God does will things to happen that appear to be contrary to His end goal. God intends this to happen. For example (see Romans 11:32) God intends us all to be disobedient, so that He can have mercy on us and show the riches of His glory (see Romans 9). But God does not intend for us to be disobedient forever - in fact NO ONE will be disobedient forever. God's goal is that all will be obedient.
It is important to note there are two things that are being talked about in verses like the above. There is God's ultimate will - let's call it the goal, and his immediate will, let's call it the plan. God's plan sometimes appears to run contrary to the goal. For example, say that the goal is that no one ever sins. Yet God knew we would all sin. In fact you might say God even intended us to sin (but He didn't intend for us to sin forever) - God prepared the lamb before the foundation of the world to save us from sin, God put Adam & Eve in the garden right next to the tree of knowledge, God didn't stop the serpent from tempting Eve... etc. So if God ultimately doesn't want anyone to sin, why would His plan include us sinning right now? Because it is necessary. In order for us to understand goodness, we need to understand evil. In order for us to ultimately never sin again, we must first partake of sin (partake of the apple)... we must experience it, we must be tempted, we must realize its fruits, we must see how sin destroys and how sin is evil. If we didn't sin we would never know that. Us experiencing sin now is the plan that will later lead to us understanding good and evil which will ultimately lead to us being made in the image of God and never sinning again.
God does follows through on His intentions and achieves His plan.
Hope that made sense.
Quote
8) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If David committed adultry with Bath-sheba, [2 Sam 11:4] it must have been god's will.
9) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If, of all the many thousands who came out of Egypt, in the great exodus, only two made it to the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb)[Num 14:30,38] it must have been God's will.
10) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Moses came down off the mount, and saw the children of israel dancing around a God they had made for themselves, [Num 32] it must have been God's will.
11) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If all men sin and come short of the glory of God; [Rom 3:23] it must have been God's will.
Yes these are all God's will. Just so we are crystal clear, it must have been God's will that people sin in this earth... to say otherwise is to suggest God's creation ran amok - it did something God didn't want it to do - essentially God must have made a MISTAKE. Since it is impossible that God would make a mistake, we can safely conclude that God intended the world to be the way it is.
Again the whole reason for this world is to understand good and evil, so we can learn goodness. To do that we have to experience evil. From the CLV:
Eccl 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it
God is giving us an experience of evil. Think about the ramifications of that.
Another way to look at is like this:
Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation
perfect through suffering.
Did you catch that? We are made
perfect through suffering. God
is making us perfect through suffering. So in order to make us perfect, God first has to create the suffering. What do you think the suffering in this world is for? God has a reason for everything.
Quote
12) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, [Acts 7:51] it must have been God's will.
13) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews stoned Stephen, [Acts 7:60] it must have been God's will.
14) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if evil men put you out of the synagogue, and even kill you, they will think they do God a service, [John 16:2-3] but it must have been God's will.
15) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews rebelled against God, and cast down his law behind their backs, and slew the prophets, and wrought great provocation, [Neh 9:26] it must have been God's will.
16) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Pharoah slew all the male children of Israel, [Exo 1:16] it must have been God's will.
17) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Herod slew all the children of Bethlehem, and in all the costs thereof, from two years old and under, [Mat 2:16] it must have been God's will.
18) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.
19) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Sapphira, his wife joined him in his deed, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.
20) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Satan was a liar from the beginning, [John 8:44] it must have been God's will.
21) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Peter betrayed his Lord with denial, [Mat 26:75] it must have been God's will.
Yes these are all God's will too.
Quote
22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a god of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?
"why do you correct me" you say. Why not? Because God has given me a heart to search out the truth and preach the gospel, that's why! Remember God's will does not frustrate His own will. God sets us up in disobedience, puts us through suffering, so He can have mercy on us later, show His glory, and perfect us as sons.
Quote
23) And if God's will cannot be overturned, or thwarted, why should wives submit to their own husbands, children obey their parents, murderers be punished, and etc. ad nauseum? God's will is, after all, behind it all.
24) And if God is love, and I preach that he is a God of vengeance, what difference does it make to you, it is God's will.
25) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, he becomes directly responsible for all the sin, murder, adultry, lying, cheating, stealing, every evil thing man has ever done. there can be no "repentance, (which God wills that every man repent), because how can a man 'repent" of doing god's will
Here your questions have changed a bit. The reason we should do what God says, and not sin, is because that is what God has commanded. Yet people will still sin until they have a change of heart. And that change of heart only comes from the father (John 6:44, 6:65).
I think what you are missing is that this life
is the experience of evil that God intended it to be. He created many vessels of dishonor, and some vessels of honor. He intends for the vessels of honor to eventually overcome, while the vessels of dishonor will be destroyed. The destruction will bring about a change, so that all vessels will be made in a new creation. This life is all about EXPERIENCE. We were doomed to futility, but God will liberate us. That is our hope. It is not a hope for God because God knows He will do it. But it is our hope because we must have faith that God will do what He says.
Romans 8:20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Now if you don't believe that God will liberate the creation from bondage to decay, then you do not have hope, and you don't believe Romans 8:21. Doesn't mean God won't do it though.
Not sure if I answered your questions or confused you more, but I welcome your response! :Sparkletooth:
Quote
Do you begin to see just a wee crakc in the doctrine, yet? There is plenty more where this came from. Because, after all, it is God's will that I break down this doctrine, and so I must. And for you to intervene, is to frustrate God's will.
Like I said, there are no cracks. Its really just perspective. God intends for us all to be frustrated for a time. That is what you and I experience every day: frustration. Yet God will liberate us. Just have faith that He will do what He says He will do.
Quote from: rosered on March 18, 2010, 10:40:06 PM
QuoteThis is what scripture says:
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Not two baptisms (water and fire), but just one (fire). First the physical, then the spiritual. The water baptism is a shadow of the fire baptism to come.
Hi Legoman
I am sort of confused by your statement above , though one baptism
by the Lord is fire
I do see the water baptism that comes first , in everyone that comes to Christ , Paul is speaking of those in Christ already ,, to the church / Body of believers in Ephesius of the Holy Spirit and fire Baptism ,
the water baptism
its is the fruits meet for repentance we have to do these first works first .... or do you believe this is only for the Jews ?
some say Jews only , but I am not certain it is just for Jews because we all have to repent first before we are even able to recive the Holy Spirit baptism
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
here Paul speaks of both
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
for me we all goe though the water first and than the fire
maybe thats the twice dead that in Jude we can see a little better
they were not undergoing the baptism of repentance
nor the same baptism of Death in the Lord ?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
I will consider your reply
thanks
here is the twice dead
they never repented nor have suffered for doing Gods will like Jesus in glorifying God
just some thoughts to consider ..
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Its just my take on it.
What happens in the physical is just a type or shadow of what
will and
must happen in the spiritual.
If you are baptized in water, but don't have a change of heart, then all that happened was you went down dry and came up wet.
The water baptism symbolizes what must happen in the spiritual. We will be covered by the living water of Christ. The fire baptism symolizes what will actually happen - trials by fire, purging by fire, etc. The baptism by fire is the real deal, the baptism by water is the shadow. The baptism by fire is what the holy spirit puts us through so that we will actually be made righteous by purging out all the junk in our life.
Baptism by holy spirit -> :dontknow: same thing as baptism by fire I guess? Baptism into Christ's death? Baptism into repentance? These are all the same thing. There is only ONE baptism, according to Paul. I don't have much time to look into it right now, but like I said this is "just my take on it".
Peace out.... :happy3:
well you put up a good point there Legoman ! thanks and agree
that the water on is temporary :thumbsup: the Fire one does change us
:icon_flower:
this is pretty good summary of it here Strong's G907 - baptizō 1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
"Note on Baptism in Ac. Baptism in water (such as John's) is distinguished from baptism with the Holy Spirit (i. 5, etc.). Those who receive the latter, however, may also be baptized in water (cf. xi. 16 with x. 47); and there is one example of people who had previously received John's baptism receiving Christian baptism as a preliminary to receiving the Spirit (xix. 3 ff.). John's was a baptism of repentance (xiii. 24; xix. 4), as was also Christian baptism (ii. 38), but as John's pointed forward to Jesus (xix. 4), it became obsolete when He came. Christian baptism followed faith in the Lord Jesus (xvi. 31 ff.); it was associated with His name (ii. 38; viii. 16, etc.), which was invoked by the person baptized (xxii. 16); it signified the remission (ii. 38) or washing away of sins (xxii. 16); sometimes it preceded (ii. 38; viii. 15 ff.; xix. 5), sometimes followed (x. 47 f.) the receiving of the Spirit." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 98, n. 1.)
This word should not be confused with baptô (911). The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (baptô) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizô) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.
Strong's G908 - baptisma 1) immersion, submersion
a) of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed
b) of John's baptism, that purification rite by which men on confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation, obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified for the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom soon to be set up. This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost.
c) of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as commanded by Christ, by which one after confessing his sins and professing his faith in Christ, having been born again by the Holy Spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the fellowship of Christ and the church.
In Rom 6:3, Paul states we are "baptised unto death" meaning that we are not only dead to our former ways, but they are buried. To return to them is as unthinkable for a Christian as for one to dig up a dead corpse! See also discussion of baptism under the previous Strong's number (907).
thanks for your reply :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 18, 2010, 10:54:00 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 07:21:32 PM"salt water Taffy turns my stomache"
Theo hopefully you didn't harden this (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=117) heart :laughing7:
what is the meaning of this post, WW? :dunno:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: willieH on March 17, 2010, 10:00:16 PM
willieH: Hi TB... :laughing7:
This topic is a bit on the "trollish" side, ...but because we at Tentmaker are a welcoming bunch, it deserves to be addressed in the name of welcome... :friendstu:
Btw... before I begin... Welcome to Tentmaker, TB :welcome:... God has brought you here to LEARN... the big question is... will you? :dontknow:
Basically the answer to ALL your questions is -- YES -- and in your endeavor to "trip" the truth (as was attempted by the Pharisees with CHRIST), shall your "attempt" herein, fail... :happygrin:
And if you bother to completely read my answer to you, ...you will in all likelihood, become frustrated because your attempt to refute the Salvation of ALL, herein fails... but, as I have already suggested to you --- an OPPORTUNITY is given you, for GOD has led you here to LEARN... :friendstu: ...and we here at TM shall hope you "have your EARS on" :JCThink: as freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"... :director:
The question I have for you, TB... is shall you LEARN from this failure to refute "UR", or will you attempt to sidestep it? :dontknow:
Just one question for you WH...
What would your reaction be to my post if I started out with
"God sent me here to teach you guys..."
You know what Theo, God did send you here to teach us something and you to learn something also. I believe we learn from all sources.
You can bet your bottom dollar you are here for some reason that only God knows at this time.
By the way Theo, I don't believe I read what your beliefs are. If you have said I must have missed them. Just what do you believe about punishment and salvation?
CHB
willieH: Hi TB... :happygrin:
Quote from: willieH on March 17, 2010, 10:00:16 PM
willieH: Hi TB... :laughing7:
This topic is a bit on the "trollish" side, ...but because we at Tentmaker are a welcoming bunch, it deserves to be addressed in the name of welcome... :friendstu:
Btw... before I begin... Welcome to Tentmaker, TB :welcome:... God has brought you here to LEARN... the big question is... will you? :dontknow:
Basically the answer to ALL your questions is -- YES -- and in your endeavor to "trip" the truth (as was attempted by the Pharisees with CHRIST), shall your "attempt" herein, fail... :happygrin:
And if you bother to completely read my answer to you, ...you will in all likelihood, become frustrated because your attempt to refute the Salvation of ALL, herein fails... but, as I have already suggested to you --- an OPPORTUNITY is given you, for GOD has led you here to LEARN... :friendstu: ...and we here at TM shall hope you "have your EARS on" :JCThink: as freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"... :director:
The question I have for you, TB... is shall you LEARN from this failure to refute "UR", or will you attempt to sidestep it? :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 19, 2010, 01:12:03 AMJust one question for you WH...
What would your reaction be to my post if I started out with
"God sent me here to teach you guys..."
:omg: I've answered ALL your TWENTY FIVE questions and you haven't answered ANY of mine, and yet shall require me to answer YOU, further? :shakepoint:
:idea2: I'll be more than happy to answer you about this, once you reciprocate even a little bit... :coffee2:
but be forewarned new brother, ...you might not like the answer much... :OhNo:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: willieH on March 19, 2010, 02:08:35 AM
willieH: Hi TB... :happygrin:
Quote from: willieH on March 17, 2010, 10:00:16 PM
willieH: Hi TB... :laughing7:
This topic is a bit on the "trollish" side, ...but because we at Tentmaker are a welcoming bunch, it deserves to be addressed in the name of welcome... :friendstu:
Btw... before I begin... Welcome to Tentmaker, TB :welcome:... God has brought you here to LEARN... the big question is... will you? :dontknow:
Basically the answer to ALL your questions is -- YES -- and in your endeavor to "trip" the truth (as was attempted by the Pharisees with CHRIST), shall your "attempt" herein, fail... :happygrin:
And if you bother to completely read my answer to you, ...you will in all likelihood, become frustrated because your attempt to refute the Salvation of ALL, herein fails... but, as I have already suggested to you --- an OPPORTUNITY is given you, for GOD has led you here to LEARN... :friendstu: ...and we here at TM shall hope you "have your EARS on" :JCThink: as freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"... :director:
The question I have for you, TB... is shall you LEARN from this failure to refute "UR", or will you attempt to sidestep it? :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 19, 2010, 01:12:03 AMJust one question for you WH...
What would your reaction be to my post if I started out with
"God sent me here to teach you guys..."
:omg: I've answered ALL your TWENTY FIVE questions and you haven't answered ANY of mine, and yet shall require me to answer YOU, further? :shakepoint:
:idea2: I'll be more than happy to answer you about this, once you reciprocate even a little bit... :coffee2:
but be forewarned new brother, ...you might not like the answer much... :OhNo:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
But that wasn't my question, was it? Try answering my question.
willieH: Hi TB... :happygrin:
I suppose you think yourself the "1st" of your kind to come to this forum, eh? :laughing7:
Bringing with you some "new enlightenment" to the membership of Tentmaker? :mshock:
Failing to KNOW that we all came
OUT of the place [babylon] you are
IN today... :sigh:
Just so's ya know... I was active and held MEMBERSHIPS of --
20 YEARS in the Salvation Army, and of --
5 YEARS in the SDA church, not to mention MUSIC MINISTRY affiliations with organizations such as, the Assembly of God, ...Healing Rooms International, ...Catholic and Episcopal... not to mention several "non-denoms"
ALL which teach either
HELL or
Annhilation...
ALL of which teach the SORROWFUL news of
LOSS instead of the VICTORY of the CROSS...
ALL of which are centered upon
SELF in their doctrinal stands...
ALL of which are numbered as
MANY, not few...
NONE of which teach to the WORLD that GOD SO LOVES [with an ETERNAL and UNCHANGING LOVE] -- it is ETERNALLY INVALUABLE, rather teaching it to be ETERNALLY EXPENDABLE
NONE of which observe the SPOKEN WILL of GOD which is UNWILLING that
ANY PERISH... teaching instead, that the CLAY dictates itself to the POTTER...
NONE of which teach the SAVED are as the STARS of Heaven, and SAND of the Sea --- INNUMERBLE...
You are hardly the 1st, nor shall likely be the last to come here thinking you shall bring a message which shall DETER our belief, which IS the TRUTH... and IS the
GOSPEL... FULL of JOY, FULL of VICTORY, FULL of COMPLETENESS which
IS the meaning of PERFECTION... :cloud9:
Arguing the UNREASONABLE and FRUITLESS fleshly vengence of EYE for EYE, [i.e. HELL/eternal punishment] in the place of the GRACE of DIVINE LOVE... and VICTORIOUS FULFILLMENT of that LOVE in ALL... :sigh:
SPEAKING much, :director: LISTENING little... :JCThink:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 19, 2010, 11:34:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 19, 2010, 02:08:35 AM
willieH: Hi TB... :happygrin:
Quote from: willieH on March 17, 2010, 10:00:16 PM
willieH: Hi TB... :laughing7:
This topic is a bit on the "trollish" side, ...but because we at Tentmaker are a welcoming bunch, it deserves to be addressed in the name of welcome... :friendstu:
Btw... before I begin... Welcome to Tentmaker, TB :welcome:... God has brought you here to LEARN... the big question is... will you? :dontknow:
Basically the answer to ALL your questions is -- YES -- and in your endeavor to "trip" the truth (as was attempted by the Pharisees with CHRIST), shall your "attempt" herein, fail... :happygrin:
And if you bother to completely read my answer to you, ...you will in all likelihood, become frustrated because your attempt to refute the Salvation of ALL, herein fails... but, as I have already suggested to you --- an OPPORTUNITY is given you, for GOD has led you here to LEARN... :friendstu: ...and we here at TM shall hope you "have your EARS on" :JCThink: as freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"... :director:
The question I have for you, TB... is shall you LEARN from this failure to refute "UR", or will you attempt to sidestep it? :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 19, 2010, 01:12:03 AMJust one question for you WH...
What would your reaction be to my post if I started out with
"God sent me here to teach you guys..."
:omg: I've answered ALL your TWENTY FIVE questions and you haven't answered ANY of mine, and yet shall require me to answer YOU, further? :shakepoint:
:idea2: I'll be more than happy to answer you about this, once you reciprocate even a little bit... :coffee2:
but be forewarned new brother, ...you might not like the answer much... :OhNo:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
But that wasn't my question, was it? Try answering my question.
In this reply, you admit that either:
(1) you are too unstudied Biblically to answer my questions and purpose to evade answering me or,
(2) you do not understand the meaning of the word
reciprocate or,
(3) you do not understand what a
DISCUSSION is --- which involves that
- [1] YOU ask questions -- which you did --> # = 25, ...WE answer them (which I DID!) --- and then,
- [2] WE ask questions and YOU answer them (which YOU have NOT)
You therefore admit that you are unable to answer
my questions of
you, eh? :dontknow:
Even though you do not see it, ...in this post, you have answered your own question of me... One which purposes to SPEAK ONLY, and which endeavors to TEACH, not to LEARN... and is about "IMPOSING" his viewpoint/opinion on a given subject, rather than "DISCUSSING" it... :sigh:
HERE are questions you have NOT ANSWERED (just in case you decide to
discuss!):
#1Quote from: willieH on March 17, 2010, 10:00:16 PM(1) use or translation of the word "forever" is INVALID, for until one can COMPLETELY define the word -- (which includes WITHOUT BEGINNING -- by explaining how something has NO BEGINNING, to include why and how that, ...IS?)... Use of the word FOREVER by any finite which does not comprehend said meaning, is therefore INVALID.
#2Quote from: willieH on March 17, 2010, 10:00:16 PMHow could something which is INHERENT within the Heart of GOD (knowledge of G & E), be OTHER than DIVINE, TB? :dunno:
#3Quote from: willieH on March 17, 2010, 10:00:16 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM8) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If David committed adultry with Bath-sheba, [2 Sam 11:4] it must have been god's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... man devises his way (as did David in this example), but GOD orders the STEPS of man -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:21 -- Jer 10:23 -- will you BELIEVE what the WORD, PLAINLY states in MULTIPLE verses, bringing its LIGHT, ...TB? Or shall you cling to your own darkened "opinions"?
#4Quote from: willieH on March 17, 2010, 10:00:16 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM9) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If, of all the many thousands who came out of Egypt, in the great exodus, only two made it to the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb)[Num 14:30,38] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... how do you continue to think that the DIVINE WILL of the ALMIGHTY can be neutralized by His own Creation? What "faith" is seen in this? The prerequisite NUMBER which eventually PHYSICALLY entered the "promised land" is not specified is it?
Where is the Prophecy noted that only TWO of the entire nation of ISRAEL should enter the promised land? Also... MOSES was not one of them... is this your conclusion as well, TB? That because MOSES did not enter PHYSICALLY, ...he therefore SHALL NEVER ENTER?
What of this, TB? ---> Rom 11:26 -- and so ...ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED, as IS WRITTEN, there shall come out of Zion, the DELIVERER and shall turn AWAY ungodliness from JACOB...
This includes the ENTIRE nation which did NOT enter into the PROMISED land. Only those CHOSEN to ENTER into the Kingdom [promised land] IN this life, shall do so IN THIS LIFE... It does not say that those who do not enter, shall NEVER enter.
#5Quote from: willieH on March 17, 2010, 10:00:16 PM
Do you believe this Scripture, TB? --
John 1:29 -- behold that Lamb of God which ...TAKETH AWAY... the SIN... of the WORLD
If the SIN of THE WORLD, ...is "taken AWAY"... Then what remains to accuse? :dontknow:
You can't have your cake & eat it too bro... :sigh:
#6Quote from: willieH on March 17, 2010, 10:00:16 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM10) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Moses came down off the mount, and saw the children of israel dancing around a God they had made for themselves, [Num 32] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- If it is WRITTEN in the WORD (which it IS!) ...which preceeds the event, then it WAS to BE so, ...well BEFORE it actually occured... are you getting the CLEANSING SPIRITUAL picture yet, TB? Or shall you continue wallowing in the CARNAL RELIGIOUS mud, given you? Must I continue this? :dunno2:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM11) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If all men sin and come short of the glory of God; [Rom 3:23] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... How can one be DELIVERED from something [sin] that one, needs no deliverance from? ALL sinned, and ALL are delivered from it.
ALL are IN ADAM [and therefore SINNERS], TB -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- as well AS the SAME "ALL" are IN CHRIST [and therefore DELIVERED]
#7Quote from: willieH on March 17, 2010, 10:00:16 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM12) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, [Acts 7:51] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... you only display YOURSELF and your RELIGION by noting this, bro... You must therefore NEGATE the words of PAUL in Rom 11:26 -- in order to continue to facilitate this belief.
"ALWAYS" in this context, simply means that:
(1) these have YET to be drawn to the SON and,
(2) shall remain so until their DUE TIME -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- and,
(3) are therefore YET to bow at the KNEE and CONFESS with the tongue -- Phil 2:10-11 -- John 6:44
It cannot mean "ALWAYS" in the sense you propose, for the word ALWAYS is a word such as NEVER, and FOREVER... meaning that PRIOR to being stiffnecked, these were stiffnecked... :pointlaugh: -- for they were "ALWAYS" stiffnecked, eh?
Will you answer these? :dontknow: Probably NOT... mostly because if you are honest with yourself, you came here not to discuss, in which you might LEARN... you are here to preach the FRUITLESSNESS of what most here, have long ago abandoned... :sigh:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:34:31 PMAnd, if God foreknew everything, why did he continually repent of his intentions toward his people?
If God "repenting" meant that God does not have foreknowlege of everything then why in one of your quotes does God foreknow that He will repent?
5. Deut 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself
for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
Quote from: legoman on March 18, 2010, 11:04:15 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM
I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;
1) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, [Gen 3:6] in the garden, it must have been God's will.
2) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve gave to her husband, Adam, and he did eat, also, [Gen 3:6] it must have been God's will.
3) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if cain killed Able, [Gen 4:8] it must have been God's will.
4) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the sons of God came in unto the daughter's of men, [Gen 6:4] it must have been God's will.
5) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,[Gen 6:5] it must have been God's will.
6) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will
Yes these were all God's will.
Quote
7) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.
God does not will something to happen that will frustrate his will. That would make God completely contradictory to Himself. However, God does will things to happen that appear to be contrary to His end goal. God intends this to happen. For example (see Romans 11:32) God intends us all to be disobedient, so that He can have mercy on us and show the riches of His glory (see Romans 9). But God does not intend for us to be disobedient forever - in fact NO ONE will be disobedient forever. God's goal is that all will be obedient.
It is important to note there are two things that are being talked about in verses like the above. There is God's ultimate will - let's call it the goal, and his immediate will, let's call it the plan. God's plan sometimes appears to run contrary to the goal. For example, say that the goal is that no one ever sins. Yet God knew we would all sin. In fact you might say God even intended us to sin (but He didn't intend for us to sin forever) - God prepared the lamb before the foundation of the world to save us from sin, God put Adam & Eve in the garden right next to the tree of knowledge, God didn't stop the serpent from tempting Eve... etc. So if God ultimately doesn't want anyone to sin, why would His plan include us sinning right now? Because it is necessary. In order for us to understand goodness, we need to understand evil. In order for us to ultimately never sin again, we must first partake of sin (partake of the apple)... we must experience it, we must be tempted, we must realize its fruits, we must see how sin destroys and how sin is evil. If we didn't sin we would never know that. Us experiencing sin now is the plan that will later lead to us understanding good and evil which will ultimately lead to us being made in the image of God and never sinning again.
God does follows through on His intentions and achieves His plan.
Hope that made sense.
Quote
8) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If David committed adultry with Bath-sheba, [2 Sam 11:4] it must have been god's will.
9) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If, of all the many thousands who came out of Egypt, in the great exodus, only two made it to the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb)[Num 14:30,38] it must have been God's will.
10) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Moses came down off the mount, and saw the children of israel dancing around a God they had made for themselves, [Num 32] it must have been God's will.
11) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If all men sin and come short of the glory of God; [Rom 3:23] it must have been God's will.
Yes these are all God's will. Just so we are crystal clear, it must have been God's will that people sin in this earth... to say otherwise is to suggest God's creation ran amok - it did something God didn't want it to do - essentially God must have made a MISTAKE. Since it is impossible that God would make a mistake, we can safely conclude that God intended the world to be the way it is.
Again the whole reason for this world is to understand good and evil, so we can learn goodness. To do that we have to experience evil. From the CLV:
Eccl 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it
God is giving us an experience of evil. Think about the ramifications of that.
Another way to look at is like this:
Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Did you catch that? We are made perfect through suffering. God is making us perfect through suffering. So in order to make us perfect, God first has to create the suffering. What do you think the suffering in this world is for? God has a reason for everything.
Quote
12) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, [Acts 7:51] it must have been God's will.
13) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews stoned Stephen, [Acts 7:60] it must have been God's will.
14) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if evil men put you out of the synagogue, and even kill you, they will think they do God a service, [John 16:2-3] but it must have been God's will.
15) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews rebelled against God, and cast down his law behind their backs, and slew the prophets, and wrought great provocation, [Neh 9:26] it must have been God's will.
16) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Pharoah slew all the male children of Israel, [Exo 1:16] it must have been God's will.
17) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Herod slew all the children of Bethlehem, and in all the costs thereof, from two years old and under, [Mat 2:16] it must have been God's will.
18) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.
19) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Sapphira, his wife joined him in his deed, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.
20) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Satan was a liar from the beginning, [John 8:44] it must have been God's will.
21) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Peter betrayed his Lord with denial, [Mat 26:75] it must have been God's will.
Yes these are all God's will too.
Quote
22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a god of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?
"why do you correct me" you say. Why not? Because God has given me a heart to search out the truth and preach the gospel, that's why! Remember God's will does not frustrate His own will. God sets us up in disobedience, puts us through suffering, so He can have mercy on us later, show His glory, and perfect us as sons.
Quote
23) And if God's will cannot be overturned, or thwarted, why should wives submit to their own husbands, children obey their parents, murderers be punished, and etc. ad nauseum? God's will is, after all, behind it all.
24) And if God is love, and I preach that he is a God of vengeance, what difference does it make to you, it is God's will.
25) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, he becomes directly responsible for all the sin, murder, adultry, lying, cheating, stealing, every evil thing man has ever done. there can be no "repentance, (which God wills that every man repent), because how can a man 'repent" of doing god's will
Here your questions have changed a bit. The reason we should do what God says, and not sin, is because that is what God has commanded. Yet people will still sin until they have a change of heart. And that change of heart only comes from the father (John 6:44, 6:65).
I think what you are missing is that this life is the experience of evil that God intended it to be. He created many vessels of dishonor, and some vessels of honor. He intends for the vessels of honor to eventually overcome, while the vessels of dishonor will be destroyed. The destruction will bring about a change, so that all vessels will be made in a new creation. This life is all about EXPERIENCE. We were doomed to futility, but God will liberate us. That is our hope. It is not a hope for God because God knows He will do it. But it is our hope because we must have faith that God will do what He says.
Romans 8:20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Now if you don't believe that God will liberate the creation from bondage to decay, then you do not have hope, and you don't believe Romans 8:21. Doesn't mean God won't do it though.
Not sure if I answered your questions or confused you more, but I welcome your response! :Sparkletooth:
Quote
Do you begin to see just a wee crakc in the doctrine, yet? There is plenty more where this came from. Because, after all, it is God's will that I break down this doctrine, and so I must. And for you to intervene, is to frustrate God's will.
Like I said, there are no cracks. Its really just perspective. God intends for us all to be frustrated for a time. That is what you and I experience every day: frustration. Yet God will liberate us. Just have faith that He will do what He says He will do.
So basically, you're saying it is God's will that some sin and some do not so that some can go to heaven immediately upon death, but others are to suffer hell-fire for a temporary time before going to heaven for a temporary time?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:59:40 AM
Quote from: legoman on March 18, 2010, 11:04:15 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:08:19 AM
I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;
1) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, [Gen 3:6] in the garden, it must have been God's will.
2) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve gave to her husband, Adam, and he did eat, also, [Gen 3:6] it must have been God's will.
3) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if cain killed Able, [Gen 4:8] it must have been God's will.
4) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the sons of God came in unto the daughter's of men, [Gen 6:4] it must have been God's will.
5) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,[Gen 6:5] it must have been God's will.
6) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will
Yes these were all God's will.
Quote
7) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.
God does not will something to happen that will frustrate his will. That would make God completely contradictory to Himself. However, God does will things to happen that appear to be contrary to His end goal. God intends this to happen. For example (see Romans 11:32) God intends us all to be disobedient, so that He can have mercy on us and show the riches of His glory (see Romans 9). But God does not intend for us to be disobedient forever - in fact NO ONE will be disobedient forever. God's goal is that all will be obedient.
It is important to note there are two things that are being talked about in verses like the above. There is God's ultimate will - let's call it the goal, and his immediate will, let's call it the plan. God's plan sometimes appears to run contrary to the goal. For example, say that the goal is that no one ever sins. Yet God knew we would all sin. In fact you might say God even intended us to sin (but He didn't intend for us to sin forever) - God prepared the lamb before the foundation of the world to save us from sin, God put Adam & Eve in the garden right next to the tree of knowledge, God didn't stop the serpent from tempting Eve... etc. So if God ultimately doesn't want anyone to sin, why would His plan include us sinning right now? Because it is necessary. In order for us to understand goodness, we need to understand evil. In order for us to ultimately never sin again, we must first partake of sin (partake of the apple)... we must experience it, we must be tempted, we must realize its fruits, we must see how sin destroys and how sin is evil. If we didn't sin we would never know that. Us experiencing sin now is the plan that will later lead to us understanding good and evil which will ultimately lead to us being made in the image of God and never sinning again.
God does follows through on His intentions and achieves His plan.
Hope that made sense.
Quote
8) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If David committed adultry with Bath-sheba, [2 Sam 11:4] it must have been god's will.
9) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If, of all the many thousands who came out of Egypt, in the great exodus, only two made it to the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb)[Num 14:30,38] it must have been God's will.
10) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Moses came down off the mount, and saw the children of israel dancing around a God they had made for themselves, [Num 32] it must have been God's will.
11) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If all men sin and come short of the glory of God; [Rom 3:23] it must have been God's will.
Yes these are all God's will. Just so we are crystal clear, it must have been God's will that people sin in this earth... to say otherwise is to suggest God's creation ran amok - it did something God didn't want it to do - essentially God must have made a MISTAKE. Since it is impossible that God would make a mistake, we can safely conclude that God intended the world to be the way it is.
Again the whole reason for this world is to understand good and evil, so we can learn goodness. To do that we have to experience evil. From the CLV:
Eccl 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it
God is giving us an experience of evil. Think about the ramifications of that.
Another way to look at is like this:
Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Did you catch that? We are made perfect through suffering. God is making us perfect through suffering. So in order to make us perfect, God first has to create the suffering. What do you think the suffering in this world is for? God has a reason for everything.
Quote
12) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, [Acts 7:51] it must have been God's will.
13) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews stoned Stephen, [Acts 7:60] it must have been God's will.
14) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if evil men put you out of the synagogue, and even kill you, they will think they do God a service, [John 16:2-3] but it must have been God's will.
15) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews rebelled against God, and cast down his law behind their backs, and slew the prophets, and wrought great provocation, [Neh 9:26] it must have been God's will.
16) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Pharoah slew all the male children of Israel, [Exo 1:16] it must have been God's will.
17) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Herod slew all the children of Bethlehem, and in all the costs thereof, from two years old and under, [Mat 2:16] it must have been God's will.
18) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.
19) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Sapphira, his wife joined him in his deed, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.
20) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Satan was a liar from the beginning, [John 8:44] it must have been God's will.
21) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Peter betrayed his Lord with denial, [Mat 26:75] it must have been God's will.
Yes these are all God's will too.
Quote
22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a god of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?
"why do you correct me" you say. Why not? Because God has given me a heart to search out the truth and preach the gospel, that's why! Remember God's will does not frustrate His own will. God sets us up in disobedience, puts us through suffering, so He can have mercy on us later, show His glory, and perfect us as sons.
Quote
23) And if God's will cannot be overturned, or thwarted, why should wives submit to their own husbands, children obey their parents, murderers be punished, and etc. ad nauseum? God's will is, after all, behind it all.
24) And if God is love, and I preach that he is a God of vengeance, what difference does it make to you, it is God's will.
25) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, he becomes directly responsible for all the sin, murder, adultry, lying, cheating, stealing, every evil thing man has ever done. there can be no "repentance, (which God wills that every man repent), because how can a man 'repent" of doing god's will
Here your questions have changed a bit. The reason we should do what God says, and not sin, is because that is what God has commanded. Yet people will still sin until they have a change of heart. And that change of heart only comes from the father (John 6:44, 6:65).
I think what you are missing is that this life is the experience of evil that God intended it to be. He created many vessels of dishonor, and some vessels of honor. He intends for the vessels of honor to eventually overcome, while the vessels of dishonor will be destroyed. The destruction will bring about a change, so that all vessels will be made in a new creation. This life is all about EXPERIENCE. We were doomed to futility, but God will liberate us. That is our hope. It is not a hope for God because God knows He will do it. But it is our hope because we must have faith that God will do what He says.
Romans 8:20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Now if you don't believe that God will liberate the creation from bondage to decay, then you do not have hope, and you don't believe Romans 8:21. Doesn't mean God won't do it though.
Not sure if I answered your questions or confused you more, but I welcome your response! :Sparkletooth:
Quote
Do you begin to see just a wee crakc in the doctrine, yet? There is plenty more where this came from. Because, after all, it is God's will that I break down this doctrine, and so I must. And for you to intervene, is to frustrate God's will.
Like I said, there are no cracks. Its really just perspective. God intends for us all to be frustrated for a time. That is what you and I experience every day: frustration. Yet God will liberate us. Just have faith that He will do what He says He will do.
So basically, you're saying it is God's will that some sin and some do not so that some can go to heaven immediately upon death, but others are to suffer hell-fire for a temporary time before going to heaven for a temporary time?
No that's not what I'm saying at all. We ALL sin. But anyway, look, here is what scripture says:
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
If God wants to create Hitler for one purpose and Mother Teresa for another purpose, that is His right. God makes both Pharaoh and the great apostle Paul for His purposes. His purposes are ultimately good (for all) and ultimately restorative (for all).
I'm not sure where you are getting the "hellfire" and "heaven for a temporary time" stuff. This life
is not about making a choice to "get to heaven" or avoiding "hell". This life
is about learning how to love and how to overcome evil. This life
is about being made into the image of God, which is LOVE (God is LOVE).
Some things for you to think on:
- if we are to be made in the image of love, we need to learn how to love (all of 1 Cor 13 - patience, kindness, always forgiving, always protecting, overcoming evil, never failing, etc)
- if we need to learn how to forgive, we need something to forgive people of
- if we need to learn how to protect, we need something to protect people from
- if God makes us perfect through suffering, wouldn't God need to create the suffering in order to make us perfect?
- if we are to learn how to overcome evil, wouldn't God need to create evil for us to overcome?
All this is necessary so we will be made in His image: LOVE.
Legoman,
Just wanted to say, liked your post. :thumbsup:
I wonder why God allows man to think he is in control of everything?
Man thinks God created him,.. {well some don't even think that}.. put him here and left him to figure everything out all by himself. There are many translated Bibles with words that are mistranslated. There are hundreds of different beliefs out in the world not one that is a hundred percent right, yet man thinks God expects us to get it right or our Father who loves us more than we love our own children will burn us continually.
There is something wrong with this kind of thinking, yet man cannot see it, weird huh? :happy3:
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 19, 2010, 02:00:23 AM
You know what Theo, God did send you here to teach us something and you to learn something also. I believe we learn from all sources.
You can bet your bottom dollar you are here for some reason that only God knows at this time.
By the way Theo, I don't believe I read what your beliefs are. If you have said I must have missed them. Just what do you believe about punishment and salvation?
CHB
If you will study the use of "aiwnios" in scripture, you will see that the same form of the same word is used to designate both salvation and damnation. I do not understand how one can say aiwnios means eternal when addressing salvation, but only an age when addressing torment. It is the same form of the same word. (did I mention that?")
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into (1)everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life (2)eternal. [(1) & (2) = accusative feminine singular adjective aiwnion]
For different forms of the same word-
compare this -
II Thes 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe because our testimony among you was believed)in that day."[aiwnion = accusative masculine singular form of aiwnios]
With this -
II Thes 2:16-17 "Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." [everlasting = aiwnian = accusative feminine singular form of aiwnios]
And they can argue all day long about "eternal hell" not being in scripture, this verse speaks of eternal fire, not hell. fire comes from the greek "pur."
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into [to (definite article) pur accusative neuter singular noun "fire"]
to (definite article) aiwnion accusative neuter singular form of aiwnios] everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
So it would not be amiss to translate it:
Mat 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the everlasting the fire [the fire that is everlasting], prepared for the devil and his angels:"
I think there are an awful lot of arguments being offered to prove what is not provable, about wordsw that are not significant to the issue. It does not matter if "hell" is mistranslated, or if sheol, hades, and gehenna are misunderstood, fire remains comprehensible. I don't care if the eternal fire is in hell, grave, or imagination, if it is eternal, it will be around for a very long time. If it will NOT be eternal, then neither will the salvation of promise be, for it is described by the same adjective, and in many cases, the same form thereof.
But I am still looking into it, so bear with me.
Theo,
Both the punishment and life have a beginning, right? So how can either one of them be eternal, everlasting, or forever? Have you looked up these words to see what their meanings are? They all do not have a beginning or end.
The eternal life that Jesus talked about was the life in the earthly kingdom which will have an end. When all is in all then time won't exist. The word aion means an age or ages and will not exist after all is in all. Therefore both punishment and aion or age lasting life will have an end.
CHB
:thumbsup: C
Excerpt from a good post by Paul H found in context here -
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7922.msg92437#msg92437
"Because the life we may be raised to could be a type of life that then could change.
Immortality is the absolute sense of the nature of our life. We can be immortal and have different types of existances.
Concerning the word aion and aionios they are in the absolute sense temporary references..."
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 07:00:14 PM
If you will study the use of "aiwnios" in scripture, you will see that the same form of the same word is used to designate both salvation and damnation. I do not understand how one can say aiwnios means eternal when addressing salvation, but only an age when addressing torment. It is the same form of the same word. (did I mention that?")
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into (1)everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life (2)eternal. [(1) & (2) = accusative feminine singular adjective aiwnion]
FIRST -- OBVIOUSLY your "study" is not too detailed concerning the use of
AIONIOS in Scripture...
SECOND -- This verse you have used as a reference, does not express either "
SALVATION" or "
DAMNATION". :laughing7:
THIRD -- Despite this MAJOR descrepancy in your referenced Scripture... the word
AIONIOS is found applied in --
Jude7 -- to a fire which:
(1) had a
beginning -- for Sodom & Gomorrah, OBVIOUSLY... were
not ALWAYS burning...
(2) had an
end -- for Sodom & Gomorrah OBVIOUSLY... are NOT burning NOW.
Both the term AION (parent root word) and its
derivitive term, AIONIOS, deal with TIME and is APPLIED to things and doings, within TIME...
TIME is a created entity --
Gen 1:1-2:3 -- which had a
BEGINNING and shall
END, as do ALL things within it... Which are TWO LIMITATIONS that the ETERNAL is found devoid.
REASON (should one decide to employ it) dictates that -- ORANGES do not "eventually" manifest from an APPLE tree... :laughing7:
Therefore -- TIME, a finite entity/quantity
WITH BEGINNING
and END, cannot "become" ETERNAL, an infinite entity/quantity
WITHOUT BEGINNING
or END :dontknow:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: CHB on March 20, 2010, 08:30:17 PM
Theo,
Both the punishment and life have a beginning, right? So how can either one of them be eternal, everlasting, or forever? Have you looked up these words to see what their meanings are? They all do not have a beginning or end.
The eternal life that Jesus talked about was the life in the earthly kingdom which will have an end. When all is in all then time won't exist. The word aion means an age or ages and will not exist after all is in all. Therefore both punishment and aion or age lasting life will have an end.
CHB
:thumbsup: CHB , that was about the clearest and shortest summary on the ages and eternal I have ever read ! Good word Sis ! :icon_flower:
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
sounds right to me
the age of Grace that Jesus is ruling since the cross
to now even this is the Day of the Lord or 1000 year reign , 1000 years is a Day etc .that is a time or each to be drawn by Gods Spirit being poured out on all flesh and each in their own order ...
:cloud9:
Quote from: rosered on March 20, 2010, 09:57:28 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 20, 2010, 08:30:17 PM
Theo,
Both the punishment and life have a beginning, right? So how can either one of them be eternal, everlasting, or forever? Have you looked up these words to see what their meanings are? They all do not have a beginning or end.
The eternal life that Jesus talked about was the life in the earthly kingdom which will have an end. When all is in all then time won't exist. The word aion means an age or ages and will not exist after all is in all. Therefore both punishment and aion or age lasting life will have an end.
CHB
:thumbsup: CHB , that was about the clearest and shortest summary on the ages and eternal I have ever read ! Good word Sis ! :icon_flower:
I agree, it's very good. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on March 21, 2010, 12:17:44 AM
Quote from: rosered on March 20, 2010, 09:57:28 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 20, 2010, 08:30:17 PM
Theo,
Both the punishment and life have a beginning, right? So how can either one of them be eternal, everlasting, or forever? Have you looked up these words to see what their meanings are? They all do not have a beginning or end.
That is the general misunderstanding. "Eternal" for example, does not mean backward time, only forward. for example, we have the promise of eternal life, but that does not mean we are promised life before we were born. That would represent time travel.
"Age lasting" is directional, only forward ages, not backward.
The fact of God being eternal in backward time is unique to him, and does not apply to us, as we have a beginning in time, he does not. (I know, you know this, just reviewing facts). Another mistake common to man is thinking God created time,. He did NOT. He created sun, moon, stars as tools whereby we can measure time, but time has always been and will always be. The verb "to be" REQUIRES a time in which to be. God "IS" - present tense of verb "to be." In the beginning "God was;" past tense of verb "to be." In future tomorrows, God "shall be;" future tense of verb "to be."
QuoteThe eternal life that Jesus talked about was the life in the earthly kingdom which will have an end. When all is in all then time won't exist. The word aion means an age or ages and will not exist after all is in all. Therefore both punishment and aion or age lasting life will have an end.
I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God. That will have to be covered in a later post. I'm getting tired now and will call it a day. God bless you and keep you all. And let us find where truth walks in our own day.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:35:19 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 21, 2010, 12:17:44 AM
Quote from: rosered on March 20, 2010, 09:57:28 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 20, 2010, 08:30:17 PM
Theo,
Both the punishment and life have a beginning, right? So how can either one of them be eternal, everlasting, or forever? Have you looked up these words to see what their meanings are? They all do not have a beginning or end.
That is the general misunderstanding. "Eternal" for example, does not mean backward time, only forward. for example, we have the promise of eternal life, but that does not mean we are promised life before we were born. That would represent time travel.
"Age lasting" is directional, only forward ages, not backward.
The fact of God being eternal in backward time is unique to him, and does not apply to us, as we have a beginning in time, he does not. (I know, you know this, just reviewing facts). Another mistake common to man is thinking God created time,. He did NOT. He created sun, moon, stars as tools whereby we can measure time, but time has always been and will always be. The verb "to be" REQUIRES a time in which to be. God "IS" - present tense of verb "to be." In the beginning "God was;" past tense of verb "to be." In future tomorrows, God "shall be;" future tense of verb "to be."
QuoteThe eternal life that Jesus talked about was the life in the earthly kingdom which will have an end. When all is in all then time won't exist. The word aion means an age or ages and will not exist after all is in all. Therefore both punishment and aion or age lasting life will have an end.
I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God. That will have to be covered in a later post. I'm getting tired now and will call it a day. God bless you and keep you all. And let us find where truth walks in our own day.
Dear Sis Theo ,
What CHB is saying to me anyhoo , is that everything is subject to the Lord Jesus Christ and is reigning and all things are subdued in Christ
till the time of the END , Than the eternal God is all in ALL this is what GOD IS Eternal Spirit .. its complete
Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
sounds right to me
the age of Grace that Jesus is ruling since the cross
to now even making all things subject to Him /judments etc lasting life etc .
than the End is
Rev22 1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
2through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
5And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
I do take offense Madam Book to your last statement. And ask that you not speak for me on this or any topic concerning my Father.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:35:19 AM
I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God.
No, you are not correct about that. I think you are getting overloaded with replies on a subject that is not necessarily simple to explain. Combine that with the fact that in general you already think we are wrong in the first place, so it gets easier and easier to come to conclusions such as you have.
(Theo)
Quote
I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;
1) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, [Gen 3:6] in the garden, it must have been God's will.
2) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve gave to her husband, Adam, and he did eat, also, [Gen 3:6] it must have been God's will.
3) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if cain killed Able, [Gen 4:8] it must have been God's will.
4) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the sons of God came in unto the daughter's of men, [Gen 6:4] it must have been God's will.
5) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,[Gen 6:5] it must have been God's will.
6) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will
(legoman) Yes these were all God's will.
Are you serious? Perhaps you read a different translation than I. You really think it was God's will that men sin? Please show me THAT scripture.
(theo)
Quote
7) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.
(logoman) God does not will something to happen that will frustrate his will. That would make God completely contradictory to Himself. However, God does will things to happen that appear to be contrary to His end goal. God intends this to happen. For example (see Romans 11:32) God intends us all to be disobedient, so that He can have mercy on us and show the riches of His glory (see Romans 9). But God does not intend for us to be disobedient forever - in fact NO ONE will be disobedient forever. God's goal is that all will be obedient.
You have now contradicted what you said earlier; "Yes, these were all God's will." Now you say "God does not will something to happen that will frustrate his will." Which is it?
(legoman)
Quote
It is important to note there are two things that are being talked about in verses like the above. There is God's ultimate will - let's call it the goal, and his immediate will, let's call it the plan. God's plan sometimes appears to run contrary to the goal. For example, say that the goal is that no one ever sins. Yet God knew we would all sin. In fact you might say God even intended us to sin (but He didn't intend for us to sin forever) - God prepared the lamb before the foundation of the world to save us from sin, God put Adam & Eve in the garden right next to the tree of knowledge, God didn't stop the serpent from tempting Eve... etc. So if God ultimately doesn't want anyone to sin, why would His plan include us sinning right now? Because it is necessary. In order for us to understand goodness, we need to understand evil. In order for us to ultimately never sin again, we must first partake of sin (partake of the apple)... we must experience it, we must be tempted, we must realize its fruits, we must see how sin destroys and how sin is evil. If we didn't sin we would never know that. Us experiencing sin now is the plan that will later lead to us understanding good and evil which will ultimately lead to us being made in the image of God and never sinning again.
Not sure! Brain freeze! I think you got it backwards. We are ALREADY made in the image of God. Adam was made sinless. If your assessment is correct GOD got it backwards. I do not believe that for one moment.
You show a God who not only creates man TO sin, but even as he creates them TO sin, he tells them to NOT sin. THAT is insanity. God is not insane.
(legoman)
QuoteGod does follows through on His intentions and achieves His plan.
Hope that made sense.
Not at all.
(Theo)
Quote
8) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If David committed adultry with Bath-sheba, [2 Sam 11:4] it must have been god's will.
9) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If, of all the many thousands who came out of Egypt, in the great exodus, only two made it to the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb)[Num 14:30,38] it must have been God's will.
10) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Moses came down off the mount, and saw the children of israel dancing around a God they had made for themselves, [Num 32] it must have been God's will.
11) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If all men sin and come short of the glory of God; [Rom 3:23] it must have been God's will.
(legoman) Yes these are all God's will. Just so we are crystal clear, it must have been God's will that people sin in this earth... to say otherwise is to suggest God's creation ran amok - it did something God didn't want it to do - essentially God must have made a MISTAKE. Since it is impossible that God would make a mistake, we can safely conclude that God intended the world to be the way it is.
How can you conclude that for God to give men free will is a mistake? God has free will and we are made in his image. I begin to comprehend how it is Universal Salvation becomes a welcome doctrine among men. It eliminates the guilt of sin by putting the blame all on God for making us sinners to begin with.
(legoman)
QuoteAgain the whole reason for this world is to understand good and evil, so we can learn goodness.
Nope! Adam already knew only the goodness from God. Only after his sin did he learn of the severity that results from sinning.
(legoman)
QuoteTo do that we have to experience evil. From the CLV:
Eccl 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it
God is giving us an experience of evil. Think about the ramifications of that.
Actually, the quote says - 12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith. 14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
"This sore travail" is a reference to his "seeking and searching out by wisdom all things that are done under heaven." "Seeking and searching" are not sin.
(legoman)
QuoteAnother way to look at is like this:
Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Did you catch that? We are made perfect through suffering. God is making us perfect through suffering.
And YOU are making us the author of salvation, about whom that remark was made. "Should make THE AUTHOR OF THEIR SALVATION perfect through suffering."
(theo)
Quote
12) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, [Acts 7:51] it must have been God's will.
13) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews stoned Stephen, [Acts 7:60] it must have been God's will.
14) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if evil men put you out of the synagogue, and even kill you, they will think they do God a service, [John 16:2-3] but it must have been God's will.
15) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews rebelled against God, and cast down his law behind their backs, and slew the prophets, and wrought great provocation, [Neh 9:26] it must have been God's will.
16) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Pharoah slew all the male children of Israel, [Exo 1:16] it must have been God's will.
17) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Herod slew all the children of Bethlehem, and in all the costs thereof, from two years old and under, [Mat 2:16] it must have been God's will.
18) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.
19) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Sapphira, his wife joined him in his deed, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.
20) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Satan was a liar from the beginning, [John 8:44] it must have been God's will.
21) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Peter betrayed his Lord with denial, [Mat 26:75] it must have been God's will.
(legoman) Yes these are all God's will too.
(Theo)
22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a god of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?
(legoman) "why do you correct me" you say. Why not? Because God has given me a heart to search out the truth and preach the gospel, that's why! Remember God's will does not frustrate His own will. God sets us up in disobedience, puts us through suffering, so He can have mercy on us later, show His glory, and perfect us as sons.
Nope! If all those things in which men sinned was God's will, and I teach truth about it, how then is it I am to be corrected? Am I not already correct, by your understanding of what constitutes God's will? You could NOT correct me, for it was already God's will for me to say those things, and you cannot thwart God's will, according to your comprehension of how things are.
(Theo)
Quote
23) And if God's will cannot be overturned, or thwarted, why should wives submit to their own husbands, children obey their parents, murderers be punished, and etc. ad nauseum? God's will is, after all, behind it all.
24) And if God is love, and I preach that he is a God of vengeance, what difference does it make to you, it is God's will.
25) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, he becomes directly responsible for all the sin, murder, adultry, lying, cheating, stealing, every evil thing man has ever done. there can be no "repentance, (which God wills that every man repent), because how can a man 'repent" of doing god's will
(legoman) Here your questions have changed a bit. The reason we should do what God says, and not sin, is because that is what God has commanded. Yet people will still sin until they have a change of heart. And that change of heart only comes from the father (John 6:44, 6:65).
Again, you missed the condition in which Adam was placed in the garden. He was not created in sin, a sinner. He was created innocent UNTIL he sinned. THAT constituted the first "change of heart" resulting in rebellion against God. YOU HAVE EVERYTHING BACKWARDS.
(legoman)
Quote
I think what you are missing is that this life is the experience of evil that God intended it to be.
Go back and read the whole thing. you missed it.
(legoman)
QuoteHe created many vessels of dishonor, and some vessels of honor. He intends for the vessels of honor to eventually overcome, while the vessels of dishonor will be destroyed. The destruction will bring about a change, so that all vessels will be made in a new creation. This life is all about EXPERIENCE. We were doomed to futility, but God will liberate us.
When we take clay and make pots, we do not design in the pots evil uses. When we sell the pots, some men will purchase them and put them to evil use. That eventuallity was not designed into the pots.
God made all the vessels of which he references as "vessels of honour, vessels of dishonour" but he did not put in any of them the propensity for sin. Only the free will ability. And he also included in his creation, the solutions for sin, IN CASE they are needed. THAT was predicated upon the proposition that some men would probably sin, not because God created them TO sin.
Quote from: legoman on March 18, 2010, 11:10:50 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 18, 2010, 10:40:06 PM
QuoteThis is what scripture says:
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Not two baptisms (water and fire), but just one (fire). First the physical, then the spiritual. The water baptism is a shadow of the fire baptism to come.
Hi Legoman
I am sort of confused by your statement above , though one baptism
by the Lord is fire
I do see the water baptism that comes first , in everyone that comes to Christ , Paul is speaking of those in Christ already ,, to the church / Body of believers in Ephesius of the Holy Spirit and fire Baptism ,
the water baptism
its is the fruits meet for repentance we have to do these first works first .... or do you believe this is only for the Jews ?
some say Jews only , but I am not certain it is just for Jews because we all have to repent first before we are even able to recive the Holy Spirit baptism
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
here Paul speaks of both
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
for me we all goe though the water first and than the fire
maybe thats the twice dead that in Jude we can see a little better
they were not undergoing the baptism of repentance
nor the same baptism of Death in the Lord ?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
I will consider your reply
thanks
here is the twice dead
they never repented nor have suffered for doing Gods will like Jesus in glorifying God
just some thoughts to consider ..
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Its just my take on it.
What happens in the physical is just a type or shadow of what will and must happen in the spiritual.
If you are baptized in water, but don't have a change of heart, then all that happened was you went down dry and came up wet.
The water baptism symbolizes what must happen in the spiritual. We will be covered by the living water of Christ. The fire baptism symolizes what will actually happen - trials by fire, purging by fire, etc. The baptism by fire is the real deal, the baptism by water is the shadow. The baptism by fire is what the holy spirit puts us through so that we will actually be made righteous by purging out all the junk in our life.
Baptism by holy spirit -> :dontknow: same thing as baptism by fire I guess? Baptism into Christ's death? Baptism into repentance? These are all the same thing. There is only ONE baptism, according to Paul. I don't have much time to look into it right now, but like I said this is "just my take on it".
Peace out.... :happy3:
That sounds like you think baptism by water is just a soaking if one fails to do right; while the baptism of fire will burn out all the unrighteousness. Well my friend, it doesn't work that way. look again. It was the baptism by fire that burned up the wood , hay, stubble. We must all be careful about the baptism of fire because we may find that WE ARE the wood, hay, or stubble.
Quote from: rosered on March 18, 2010, 11:23:25 PM
well you put up a good point there Legoman ! thanks and agree
that the water on is temporary :thumbsup: the Fire one does change us
:icon_flower:
this is pretty good summary of it here Strong's G907 - baptizō 1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
"Note on Baptism in Ac. Baptism in water (such as John's) is distinguished from baptism with the Holy Spirit (i. 5, etc.). Those who receive the latter, however, may also be baptized in water (cf. xi. 16 with x. 47); and there is one example of people who had previously received John's baptism receiving Christian baptism as a preliminary to receiving the Spirit (xix. 3 ff.). John's was a baptism of repentance (xiii. 24; xix. 4), as was also Christian baptism (ii. 38), but as John's pointed forward to Jesus (xix. 4), it became obsolete when He came. Christian baptism followed faith in the Lord Jesus (xvi. 31 ff.); it was associated with His name (ii. 38; viii. 16, etc.), which was invoked by the person baptized (xxii. 16); it signified the remission (ii. 38) or washing away of sins (xxii. 16); sometimes it preceded (ii. 38; viii. 15 ff.; xix. 5), sometimes followed (x. 47 f.) the receiving of the Spirit." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 98, n. 1.)
This word should not be confused with baptô (911). The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (baptô) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizô) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.
Strong's G908 - baptisma 1) immersion, submersion
a) of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed
b) of John's baptism, that purification rite by which men on confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation, obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified for the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom soon to be set up. This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost.
c) of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as commanded by Christ, by which one after confessing his sins and professing his faith in Christ, having been born again by the Holy Spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the fellowship of Christ and the church.
In Rom 6:3, Paul states we are "baptised unto death" meaning that we are not only dead to our former ways, but they are buried. To return to them is as unthinkable for a Christian as for one to dig up a dead corpse! See also discussion of baptism under the previous Strong's number (907).
thanks for your reply :winkgrin:
Actually, In my humble opinion, YOU have it correct.
Quote from: CHB on March 19, 2010, 02:00:23 AM
You know what Theo, God did send you here to teach us something and you to learn something also. I believe we learn from all sources.
You can bet your bottom dollar you are here for some reason that only God knows at this time.
By the way Theo, I don't believe I read what your beliefs are. If you have said I must have missed them. Just what do you believe about punishment and salvation?
CHB
I don't think God sent me here to teach. I think God sent me here to learn if Universal Salvation is truth. There is a difference. between learning truth through asking questions, and teaching through making statements. I offer a combination when I ask a question, and upon receiving a response, make a statement about the response.
What are my beliefs? They are forbidden on this board. THAT is why you have not heard them.
I just wanted to comment on this first. I'll go through the rest later when I have a bit more time...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:50:28 AM
(legoman)QuoteAnother way to look at is like this:
Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Did you catch that? We are made perfect through suffering. God is making us perfect through suffering.
And YOU are making us the author of salvation, about whom that remark was made. "Should make THE AUTHOR OF THEIR SALVATION perfect through suffering."
Sorry, I should have explained myself a bit better here. I was in no way meaning that we are the author of our own salvation.
My point was this: the way something is made perfect is through suffering. That is how Jesus was 'made perfect'.
But are we not instructed to take up our cross and follow Jesus? We must crucify the old man in us. We must be like Christ.
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord
loveth he
chasteneth, and
scourgeth every son whom he
receiveth.
God scourges His sons. This is the suffering we must all go through in order to be made perfect as sons, like Christ.
And NO Adam & Eve were not perfect in the garden of eden. If they were perfect, they would not have chosen to sin.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:33:09 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 19, 2010, 02:00:23 AM
You know what Theo, God did send you here to teach us something and you to learn something also. I believe we learn from all sources.
You can bet your bottom dollar you are here for some reason that only God knows at this time.
By the way Theo, I don't believe I read what your beliefs are. If you have said I must have missed them. Just what do you believe about punishment and salvation?
CHB
I don't think God sent me here to teach. I think God sent me here to learn if Universal Salvation is truth. There is a difference. between learning truth through asking questions, and teaching through making statements. I offer a combination when I ask a question, and upon receiving a response, make a statement about the response.
What are my beliefs? They are forbidden on this board. THAT is why you have not heard them.
I'm sure you can tell us your beliefs. What is forbidden is prolonged arguing or flame wars that may erupt.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 10:49:05 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:35:19 AM
I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God.
No, you are not correct about that. I think you are getting overloaded with replies on a subject that is not necessarily simple to explain. Combine that with the fact that in general you already think we are wrong in the first place, so it gets easier and easier to come to conclusions such as you have.
If the arguments posted all over the website about "aiwnion" NOT meaning eternal, but "age" are any indication of what this site is about, then I am correct, not simply "overloaded" and "already thinking you are wrong" as you indicate.
In Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," both "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same form of the same word, "aiwnion" and therfore cannot be used to mean two radically different and opposing timeframes.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 03:01:25 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 10:49:05 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:35:19 AM
I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God.
No, you are not correct about that. I think you are getting overloaded with replies on a subject that is not necessarily simple to explain. Combine that with the fact that in general you already think we are wrong in the first place, so it gets easier and easier to come to conclusions such as you have.
If the arguments posted all over the website about "aiwnion" NOT meaning eternal, but "age" are any indication of what this site is about, then I am correct, not simply "overloaded" and "already thinking you are wrong" as you indicate.
In Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," both "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same form of the same word, "aiwnion" and therfore cannot be used to mean two radically different and opposing timeframes.
Theo maybe you missed my other post on this.
Aionion does not refer to eternal OR temporary. It means "pertaining to the ages" or "continuing through ages".
The punishment pertains to ages in Matt 25:46. So does the life. Does the life end when the ages end? NO, because we are granted IMMORTALITY and death is defeated. But no where in scripture is punishment ever referred to as endless.
Quote from: legoman on March 21, 2010, 03:05:33 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 03:01:25 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 10:49:05 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:35:19 AM
I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God.
No, you are not correct about that. I think you are getting overloaded with replies on a subject that is not necessarily simple to explain. Combine that with the fact that in general you already think we are wrong in the first place, so it gets easier and easier to come to conclusions such as you have.
If the arguments posted all over the website about "aiwnion" NOT meaning eternal, but "age" are any indication of what this site is about, then I am correct, not simply "overloaded" and "already thinking you are wrong" as you indicate.
In Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," both "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same form of the same word, "aiwnion" and therfore cannot be used to mean two radically different and opposing timeframes.
Theo maybe you missed my other post on this.
Aionion does not refer to eternal OR temporary. It means "pertaining to the ages" or "continuing through ages".
The punishment pertains to ages in Matt 25:46. So does the life. Does the life end when the ages end? NO, because we are granted IMMORTALITY and death is defeated. But no where in scripture is punishment ever referred to as endless.
Hey my friend, (I call you "friend" for your patience) if aiwnion does not mean endless when referencing damnation, how then does it mean endless when referencing salvation?
Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into aiwnion (everlasting) punishment: but the righteous into life aiwnion (eternal)," both "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same form of the same word, "aiwnion" and therfore cannot be used to mean two radically different and opposing timeframes.
Quote from: legoman on March 21, 2010, 02:38:22 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:33:09 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 19, 2010, 02:00:23 AM
You know what Theo, God did send you here to teach us something and you to learn something also. I believe we learn from all sources.
You can bet your bottom dollar you are here for some reason that only God knows at this time.
By the way Theo, I don't believe I read what your beliefs are. If you have said I must have missed them. Just what do you believe about punishment and salvation?
CHB
I don't think God sent me here to teach. I think God sent me here to learn if Universal Salvation is truth. There is a difference. between learning truth through asking questions, and teaching through making statements. I offer a combination when I ask a question, and upon receiving a response, make a statement about the response.
What are my beliefs? They are forbidden on this board. THAT is why you have not heard them.
I'm sure you can tell us your beliefs. What is forbidden is prolonged arguing or flame wars that may erupt.
Yes, my friend, but it only counts when "I" am sure, and I am not sure because I already see postings telling me what is forbidden topics. I do not consider "little" infractions to be o.k. unless told so by a moderator. Since I do not know who the moderators are, it would be nice if one would give an o.k. and sign his post with "moderator."
Then I will post my beliefs for all to see and possibly straighten me out.
Quote from: legoman on March 21, 2010, 02:37:20 PM
I just wanted to comment on this first. I'll go through the rest later when I have a bit more time...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:50:28 AM
(legoman)QuoteAnother way to look at is like this:
Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Did you catch that? We are made perfect through suffering. God is making us perfect through suffering.
And YOU are making us the author of salvation, about whom that remark was made. "Should make THE AUTHOR OF THEIR SALVATION perfect through suffering."
Sorry, I should have explained myself a bit better here. I was in no way meaning that we are the author of our own salvation.
My point was this: the way something is made perfect is through suffering. That is how Jesus was 'made perfect'.
But are we not instructed to take up our cross and follow Jesus? We must crucify the old man in us. We must be like Christ.
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
God scourges His sons. This is the suffering we must all go through in order to be made perfect as sons, like Christ.
And NO Adam & Eve were not perfect in the garden of eden. If they were perfect, they would not have chosen to sin.
Assumption not supported by the scriptures referenced.
Jesus was perfect, yet was tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin. We are tempted when drawn by our own desires, but unlike Jesus, we give our desires more authority than is healthy for us, until finally we yield our souls to our desires. Jesus did not. Still, he COULD HAVE. And he was a perfect man.
And yes, Adam was a perfect man, but had no experience to fall back on. It is entirely speculative to discuss what might have happened in the garden if instead of Adam, God had place YOU or ME there. I hasten to add, I am glad it was not YOU or ME. This way we can assess blame much more remotely than if it had been YOU or ME. I thank my God daily for both of us.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 03:01:25 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 10:49:05 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:35:19 AM
I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God.
No, you are not correct about that. I think you are getting overloaded with replies on a subject that is not necessarily simple to explain. Combine that with the fact that in general you already think we are wrong in the first place, so it gets easier and easier to come to conclusions such as you have.
If the arguments posted all over the website about "aiwnion" NOT meaning eternal, but "age" are any indication of what this site is about, then I am correct, not simply "overloaded" and "already thinking you are wrong" as you indicate.
In Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," both "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same form of the same word, "aiwnion" and therfore cannot be used to mean two radically different and opposing timeframes.
You have missed some posts then, you are simply wrong that people here believe God is not eternal or that there is no eternity no matter how much you disagree over the definitions of those words.
Theo,
Am not sure but I probably see eternal, everlasting, and forever a little different than some on here. These words I believe ONLY apply to God because he is the only thing without a beginning or end which these words mean. Punishment and the life Jesus talked about have a beginning and an end.
CHB
Theo God is eternal and this verse is the indicator of that.
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
We will be given immortality
1C 15:51 Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed,
1C 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality.
Matthew 25:46 even when translated to a temporary frame of time when referring to punishment or life does not change Gods immortal status because it is not a verse about Gods nature.
Re 21:1 And I perceived a new heaven and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth pass away, and the sea is not more.
Heaven and earth pass away, so if the traditional teaching about some people "NOW" being in heaven is correct then those there get erased I guess.
(WH)
QuoteHi TB... :laughing7:
This topic is a bit on the "trollish" side,
Sorry I missed this one, but since you said you had answered all my questions, I went looking for it. I shall attempt to respond with kindness to some hostility I perceive in your remarks. Or is it simply immaturity on your part?
I don't even know what that terminology [trolling] means. I have seen it on several boards, but no one has ever applied it to my posts before. mind explaining it?
(WH)
Quote
...but because we at Tentmaker are a welcoming bunch, it deserves to be addressed in the name of welcome... :friendstu:
Btw... before I begin... Welcome to Tentmaker, TB :welcome:... God has brought you here to LEARN... the big question is... will you? :dontknow:
Basically the answer to ALL your questions is -- YES -- and in your endeavor to "trip" the truth (as was attempted by the Pharisees with CHRIST), shall your "attempt" herein, fail... :happygrin:
And if you bother to completely read my answer to you, ...you will in all likelihood, become frustrated because your attempt to refute the Salvation of ALL, herein fails... but, as I have already suggested to you --- an OPPORTUNITY is given you, for GOD has led you here to LEARN... :friendstu: ...and we here at TM shall hope you "have your EARS on" :JCThink: as freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"... :director:
In case it comes up later, this is the remark I identified as "hostility in your remarks"
Quote"as freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"(Capitals YOURS for emphasis)
(WH)
Quote
The question I have for you, TB... is shall you LEARN from this failure to refute "UR", or will you attempt to sidestep it? :dontknow:
Let us begin, shall we? :reachout:
(TB)
I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;
1) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, [Gen 3:6] in the garden, it must have been God's will.
(WH) YES -- YHVH God works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL -- Eph 1:11
(TB) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve gave to her husband, Adam, and he did eat, also, [Gen 3:6] it must have been God's will.
(WH) YES (see # 1) -- also... this event is IN the WORD, and the WORD which preceeded the event, must needs occur as noted IN the WORD which preceeded the event... :wink3:
(TB) 3) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if cain killed Able, [Gen 4:8] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... the "murder" of Abel is part of the WORD which does NOT CHANGE... and so that "murder" which was PART of the THINGS NOT YET DONE -- Isaiah 46:10 -- had to occur, for the Scriptures [WORD] -- CANNOT be BROKEN -- John 10:34 -- the WORD has NO VARIANCE -- James 1:17 -- and is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever -- Heb 13:8
Why would you quote Isaiah to demonstrate something about the conversation in the garden? I will now quote another covenant to demonstrate a principal that applies to every day since creation; "Where there is no law, sin is not imputed." Adam was not accountable for every word of God since the world began. He was accountable for the sin of disobedience to specific instructions about a specific act of obedience/disobedience.
(tb)
Quote4) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the sons of God came in unto the daughter's of men, [Gen 6:4] it must have been God's will.
(WH) YES (see #1) -- also... God made woman, to be an HELP, ...meet to MAN, without qualification (in every way) -- Gen 2:20 -- That "help" was not limited or described, so it stands as "help" in every way that MAN needed "help"... do you doubt the WORD which states this? :dontknow:
Your responses are bordering on the edge of phantasy. It is not the word of God I doubt, but it is your application of that word of God. I am beginning to think you have no idea whatsoever about what scripture teaches.
(tb)
Quote5) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,[Gen 6:5] it must have been God's will.
(WH) YES (see #1) -- also... God sends man into CAPTIVITY -- Jer 29:14 -- that He might DELIVER him FROM IT... as well as CONCLUDE ALL in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- that He might have MERCY upon ALL -- are you getting any of this, TB? :laughing7:
I know why you are laughing. You don't believe it either. NO MAN ever begot a son, only to subject him to humiliation of temptation of flesh, subject him to unbelief, subject him to disobedience, just so you as his dear old daddy, can offer him a chance to repent. It is monstrous in the extreme, and to accuse God of so behaving is unbelievable. All that dows is how that you do not comprehend whaqt the scriptures are actually saying, so you take one sound bite out of context so you can present your mangled view of reality.
(tb)
Quote6) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will
(WH)
YES (see #1) -- also... GOD
created EVIL as well as GOOD --
Isaiah 45:7 -- and the KNOWLEDGE of IT, is HIS --
Gen 3:22 -- to have KNOWLEDGE of IT, must therefore be a DIVINE thing... which MANY (likely such as yourself), think to be OPPOSING DIVINITY!
[/quote]
Paul was accused of saying we must do evil so good can result, and he called it "slander;"
Rom 3:8 "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come..." You have now slandered God.
(WH)
QuoteHow could something which is INHERENT within the Heart of GOD (knowledge of G & E), be OTHER than DIVINE, TB? :dunno:
I guess probably the same way any other God can deal proudly, because of what is in his heart. Exodus 18:11 "Now I know that the Lord is greater than all Gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them."
(tb)
Quote7) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.
(WH) YES (see #1) -- also...
Thought you said you answered all my questions?
(WH)
Quote(1) use or translation of the word "forever" is INVALID, for until one can COMPLETELY define the word -- (which includes WITHOUT BEGINNING -- by explaining how something has NO BEGINNING, to include why and how that, ...IS?)... Use of the word FOREVER by any finite which does not comprehend said meaning, is therefore INVALID.
Why. Because you declared it so? WHATEVER meaning is to be applied to aiwnion salvation, is also to be applied to aiwnion punishment. "And these shall go away into aiwnion [everlasting] punishment: but the righteous into life aiwnion [eternal]." [Mat 25:46]
(WH)
Quote(2) GOD shall establish ISRAEL for ever, ...for "ISRAEL" are His Sons, which are without beginning or end... For ALL His SONS were WITH Him, BEFORE entering this realm -- Luke 15:11-32 -- Job 38:7
Finally I begin to comprehend where you are getting this stuff from.
Luke 15:11 plainly says "And he said, A certain ANTHRWPOS [man] had two sons:
Hosea 11:9 "... I am God, and not ANTHRWPOS [man]..."
I think I will take a break, this nonsense is starting to get to me and I do not want to be unkind.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 03:13:07 PMHey my friend, (I call you "friend" for your patience) if aiwnion does not mean endless when referencing damnation, how then does it mean endless when referencing salvation?
An adjective does not have mean either "everlasting" or "temporary". Here is a definition (http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html) of olam given by Hebrew scholars. Using that definition, the word olam could be applied to things that are temporary and to things that are everlasting. And in fact, olam and aionion
are applied
both to things temporary and everlasting.
I can ask you the same question you are asking:
Habakuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting. Are the mountains everlasting? Or are God's ways temporary?
My answer is that the duration of both are "beyond the horizon". When applied to God that means everlasting but for the mountains it means less than everlasting. If punishment is everlasting then God's mercy is not everlasting. Yet both are olam and aionion.
Quote from: bobf on March 21, 2010, 04:21:08 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 03:13:07 PMHey my friend, (I call you "friend" for your patience) if aiwnion does not mean endless when referencing damnation, how then does it mean endless when referencing salvation?
An adjective does not have mean either "everlasting" or "temporary". Here is a definition (http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html) of olam given by Hebrew scholars. Using that definition, the word olam could be applied to things that are temporary and to things that are everlasting. And in fact, olam and aionion are applied both to things temporary and everlasting.
I can ask you the same question you are asking:
Habakuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
Are the mountains everlasting? Or are God's ways temporary?
My answer is that the duration of both are "beyond the horizon". For God that means everlasting but for the mountains it means less than everlasting. If punishment is everlasting then God's mercy is not everlasting. Yet both are olam and aionion.
In this you are correct. That leaves remaining the question of the application of the information.
Do you believe Mat 25:46 is really saying "And these shall go away into aiwnion [temporary] punishment: but the righteous into life aiwnion [eternal]"?
This life is certainly a "blink of an eye" when compared to eternity, and God had a word for that kind of time; "oligon" - and it is found in James 4:14 "Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a oligon [little time], and then vanisheth away."
If this is indeed the doctrine of punishment and ultimate salvation, God certainly had the vocabulary to sustain it. But he did not say "And these shall go away into oligon [temporary] punishment, and then vanish away into life aiwnion [eternal]"?
Now THAT indeed changes the meaning of what is said.
[UBS] oligon little, small, (pl.) few | in a short while, briefly; a little while, in only a small way;
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:39:12 PMDo you believe Mat 25:46 is really saying "And these shall go away into aiwnion [temporary] punishment: but the righteous into life aiwnion [eternal]"?
No, I don't believe "tempory punishment" is what Jesus meant. The punishment is conditional. Until the conditions are met for salvation the punishment is continous and indefinite in duration (the wrath of God abides on him) and so punishment's end is beyond the horizon. I believe "a duration extending beyond the horizon" is approximately what Jesus intended to say for both life and punishment. He left it for us to ascertain from "the sum of Thy Word" what those vague words meant in each instance.
QuoteIf this is indeed the doctrine of punishment and ultimate salvation, God certainly had the vocabulary to sustain it. But he did not say "And these shall go away into oligon [temporary] punishment, and then vanish away into life aiwnion [eternal]"?
Sure God has the words to make it crystal clear what He meant. But I don't make the assumption that God must make it crystal clear just because I wish He would have. I read that God told Daniel to shut up the words and I believe God did exactly that.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased Incidentally, in the LXX, the words translated "everlasting contempt" in Daniel 12:2 are the same exact words translated "shame of thy youth" in this verse.
Isaiah 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.How is that in one case "everlasting contempt" is forever but in another case it will be forgetten?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 03:50:20 PM
Theo God is eternal and this verse is the indicator of that.
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Same word as that used in Mat 25:46, and used to describe both punishment and salvation. Are you implying it now has THREE meanings?
QuoteWe will be given immortality
1C 15:51 Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed,
1C 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality.
Matthew 25:46 even when translated to a temporary frame of time when referring to punishment or life does not change Gods immortal status because it is not a verse about Gods nature.
Re 21:1 And I perceived a new heaven and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth pass away, and the sea is not more.
Heaven and earth pass away, so if the traditional teaching about some people "NOW" being in heaven is correct then those there get erased I guess.
I don't think the heavens where the rain dwells is the same heaven where the saints dwell.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 05:50:16 PM
Same word as that used in Mat 25:46, and used to describe both punishment and salvation. Are you implying it now has THREE meanings?
athanasia (immortality) is not in matthew 25:46.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 05:50:16 PM
I don't think the heavens where the rain dwells is the same heaven where the saints dwell.
Well, the verse about a new heaven and new earth does not speak of where the rain dwells this verse talks about the sea in which it may be referring to.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works
Interesting how from this translation, hell delivered up the dead. Even though supposedly HELL is a place where no one escapes and are not dead but are alive and suffering.
Quote from: bobf on March 21, 2010, 05:20:30 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:39:12 PMDo you believe Mat 25:46 is really saying "And these shall go away into aiwnion [temporary] punishment: but the righteous into life aiwnion [eternal]"?
No, I don't believe "tempory punishment" is what Jesus meant. The punishment is conditional. Until the conditions are met for salvation the punishment is continous and indefinite in duration...
What's "indefinite" about aiwnion? Whenever aiwnion is applied to God, to salvation, and to punishment, why would someone think he is saying three different things? MY first reaction is that he is using words that indicate he means.
Quote
(the wrath of God abides on him) and so punishment's end is beyond the horizon.
I am not familiar with that scripture reference that speaks of "punishment's end." Can you please supply it for my study?
QuoteI believe "a duration extending beyond the horizon" is approximately what Jesus intended to say for both life and punishment.
Oh! NOW I begin to see. We are to study what Jesus intended to say, rather than all those stuffy things he actually DID say. Thanks for a "heads up" on this one.
QuoteHe left it for us to ascertain from "the sum of Thy Word" what those vague words meant in each instance.
Vague words? Like what?
QuoteIf this is indeed the doctrine of punishment and ultimate salvation, God certainly had the vocabulary to sustain it. But he did not say "And these shall go away into oligon [temporary] punishment, and then vanish away into life aiwnion [eternal]"?
QuoteSure God has the words to make it crystal clear what He meant. But I don't make the assumption that God must make it crystal clear just because I wish He would have. I read that God told Daniel to shut up the words and I believe God did exactly that.
I think you are mistaking God for God's instruction to Daniel. If God is going to hold me accountable for understanding his word, he really must not play word games with me. THAT is not "Godly." That is insanity. I believe he said what he meant for us to understand.
QuoteDaniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased
Incidentally, in the LXX, the words translated "everlasting contempt" in Daniel 12:2 are the same exact words translated "shame of thy youth" in this verse.
Isaiah 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
Where? "Shame" is [oneidismon]; "everlastind contemp" is [aisxuneen aiwnion]
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
LXT Daniel 12:2 kai polloi twn katheudontwn en tw platei tees gees anasteesontai oi men eis zween aiwnion oi de eis oneidismon oi de eis diasporan kai aisxuneen aiwnion
Isaiah 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
LXT Isaiah 54:4 mee fobou oti kateesxunthees meede entrapees oti wneidisthees oti aisxuneen aiwnion epileesee kai oneidos tees xeereias sou ou mee mneestheesee
QuoteHow is that in one case "everlasting contempt" is forever but in another case it will be forgetten?
Because it is not the same language.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 05:53:10 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 05:50:16 PM
Same word as that used in Mat 25:46, and used to describe both punishment and salvation. Are you implying it now has THREE meanings?
athanasia (immortality) is not in matthew 25:46.
Right! What's your point? I was addressing "aiwnion" which is in both reference verses.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 06:25:54 PM
Oh! NOW I begin to see. We are to study what Jesus intended to say, rather than all those stuffy things he actually DID say. Thanks for a "heads up" on this one.
Yes, that is the nature of parables, they mean something other than the words used to tell one.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 06:29:03 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 05:53:10 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 05:50:16 PM
Same word as that used in Mat 25:46, and used to describe both punishment and salvation. Are you implying it now has THREE meanings?
athanasia (immortality) is not in matthew 25:46.
Right! What's your point? I was addressing "aiwnion" which is in both reference verses.
I am pointing out that the eternal nature of God isn't determined by the word aionios in the first place.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 06:25:54 PMWhat's "indefinite" about aiwnion?[
Vague words? Like what?
Aionios and olam are applied to both the everlasting and the tempoary in scripture. I gave you one example. There are even examples where olam (and aionious in the LXX) are applied to the consequences of sin that are tempoary according to the immediate context. That makes it vague with respect to determining whether the noun it modifies is everlasting or not.
QuoteWhenever aiwnion is applied to God, to salvation, and to punishment, why would someone think he is saying three different things? MY first reaction is that he is using words that indicate he means.
I don't think He is saying three different things. In all cases I believe God is using a word that means "beyond the horizon" as Hebrew scholars indicate.
QuoteI am not familiar with that scripture reference that speaks of "punishment's end." Can you please supply it for my study?
God's mercy endures forever (many Psalms). The Lord will not cast off forever. (Lamentations 3).
QuoteOh! NOW I begin to see. We are to study what Jesus intended to say, rather than all those stuffy things he actually DID say. Thanks for a "heads up" on this one.
We should study all of scripture to see what Jesus meant by what He said.
QuoteI think you are mistaking God for God's instruction to Daniel.
He didn't seal up God, He sealed up the words.
QuoteIf God is going to hold me accountable for understanding his word, he really must not play word games with me. THAT is not "Godly." That is insanity. I believe he said what he meant for us to understand.
He sealed up the words given to Daniel because it was not given (at least not yet) for Daniel to understand them (Daniel 12:8-9).
QuoteWhere? "Shame" is [oneidismon]; "everlastind contemp" is [aisxuneen aiwnion]
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
LXT Daniel 12:2 kai polloi twn katheudontwn en tw platei tees gees anasteesontai oi men eis zween aiwnion oi de eis oneidismon oi de eis diasporan kai aisxuneen aiwnion
LXT Isaiah 54:4 mee fobou oti kateesxunthees meede entrapees oti wneidisthees oti aisxuneen aiwnion epileesee kai oneidos tees xeereias sou ou mee mneestheesee
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:35:19 AM
I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God. That will have to be covered in a later post. I'm getting tired now and will call it a day. God bless you and keep you all. And let us find where truth walks in our own day.
NO... you were NOT "right", brother Theo, so please stop patting yourself on the back... :laughhand:
:laughing7: You "
guess" incorrectly bro... We all believe in ETERNITY, and in an ETERNAL God which PRECEEDED all of this.
Just because some see things in a way other than do you, does not remove or negate the observation of the principle (Eternity), because said observation is NOT in line with YOUR present vision of it.
ETERNITY means NO BEGINNING as well as NO END, as CHB has pointed out... It does NOT mean, "from NOW -- on"... which is how most Christians observe it to be.
JESUS noted:
BEFORE Abraham WAS [time designation with beginning].. I AM [apart from time]The
WORD, having
NO BEGINNING already IS (in place)... prior to TIME'S creation, in which Abraham eventually appeared.
We are FINITE, and in our present state, God has imposed upon us... a FINITE ability to understand/comprehend. Which confines us to TIME and its limitations, and which... in that TEMPORAL condition, is unable to truly and/or COMPLETELY comprehend/behold the ETERNAL setting.
When any FINITE attempts to apply an INFINITE [eternal] application to any (including him/herself) FINITE entity, he/she has stepped OUTSIDE his/her own ability to comprehend... and accordingly shall fail to convey TRUTH concerning this misplaced and invalid application....
For that one is unable to EXPLAIN the
unlimited parameters of ETERNITY (which have NO BEGINNING
or END), because he/she does not even understand this him/herself. Rendering his/her application of it to him/herself OR another, ...INVALID... :nod:
May God bless within His wisdom, and keep
you as well... :friendstu:
...willieH :icon_king:
Hi Theo,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now let's discover how long the "eternity" REALLY is in many leading "selling" English translations:
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude verse 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until-- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53).
Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until--Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13). written by Gary of Tentmaker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There are many more uses of the words eternal and forever that cannot possibly be the right words for the verses they are used in.
If the words eternal and forever that are used in these verses are the actual meanings in these verses how do you explain why they are not still prevalent today?
Take this verse for example: (Lev. 23:41) And ye shall keep it a feast unto the Lord seven days in the year. It shall BE A STATUE FOR EVER {then it says "in your generations"} Which is it "forever" or just in "their generations"? Do you see a problem here?
Theo, how would you explain this?
CHB
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:33:09 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 19, 2010, 02:00:23 AM
You know what Theo, God did send you here to teach us something and you to learn something also. I believe we learn from all sources.
You can bet your bottom dollar you are here for some reason that only God knows at this time.
By the way Theo, I don't believe I read what your beliefs are. If you have said I must have missed them. Just what do you believe about punishment and salvation?
CHB
I don't think God sent me here to teach. I think God sent me here to learn if Universal Salvation is truth. There is a difference. between learning truth through asking questions, and teaching through making statements. I offer a combination when I ask a question, and upon receiving a response, make a statement about the response.
What are my beliefs? They are forbidden on this board. THAT is why you have not heard them.
MOD NOTE (per Theo's suggestion) - Hi Theo. It actually appears to me that you have already told us a lot of what you believe through your arguments against UR.
I truly don't know how to open this up any more without getting into outright open debating of discouraged terminology. I really don't think we
have to, because again, things can be (and have been already) discussed in detail without focusing on distracting, enflaming, and man-made words/phrases that aren't even in the scriptures.
I have
perceived from your posts that you believe
a) there is not UR
b) there may be/probably is a "hell" [or eternal punishement/separation of some sort]
c) mankind has control of "making all the right decisions",
d) if he doesn't, in the end he is lost forever (although you may not be settled on what that will look like exactly)
e) people who believe in UR can be a Christian, but are likely teaching error
f) God has a will that can be overpowered by man's will, so
g) God does not always "get his way"
e) you do want to defend your position rather than be completely open to learning
Please feel free to correct/explain any of this - these are
my perceptions of what you've been saying - be as specific as you want to be about what you believe. Ensuing discussion will be moderated determinant upon direction of discussion, focus, spirit, attitude, likely usefulness to the body (strife, dischord, personal attacks) etc. James.
Quote from: bobf on March 21, 2010, 07:31:03 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 06:25:54 PMWhat's "indefinite" about aiwnion?[
Vague words? Like what?
Aionios and olam are applied to both the everlasting and the tempoary in scripture. I gave you one example. There are even examples where olam (and aionious in the LXX) are applied to the consequences of sin that are tempoary according to the immediate context. That makes it vague with respect to determining whether the noun it modifies is everlasting or not.
QuoteWhenever aiwnion is applied to God, to salvation, and to punishment, why would someone think he is saying three different things? MY first reaction is that he is using words that indicate he means.
I don't think He is saying three different things. In all cases I believe God is using a word that means "beyond the horizon" as Hebrew scholars indicate.
QuoteI am not familiar with that scripture reference that speaks of "punishment's end." Can you please supply it for my study?
God's mercy endures forever (many Psalms). The Lord will not cast off forever. (Lamentations 3).[verse 31]
QuoteOh! NOW I begin to see. We are to study what Jesus intended to say, rather than all those stuffy things he actually DID say. Thanks for a "heads up" on this one.
We should study all of scripture to see what Jesus meant by what He said.
QuoteI think you are mistaking God for God's instruction to Daniel.
He didn't seal up God, He sealed up the words.
QuoteIf God is going to hold me accountable for understanding his word, he really must not play word games with me. THAT is not "Godly." That is insanity. I believe he said what he meant for us to understand.
He sealed up the words given to Daniel because it was not given (at least not yet) for Daniel to understand them (Daniel 12:8-9).
QuoteWhere? "Shame" is [oneidismon]; "everlastind contemp" is [aisxuneen aiwnion]
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
LXT Daniel 12:2 kai polloi twn katheudontwn en tw platei tees gees anasteesontai oi men eis zween aiwnion oi de eis oneidismon oi de eis diasporan kai aisxuneen aiwnion
LXT Isaiah 54:4 mee fobou oti kateesxunthees meede entrapees oti wneidisthees oti aisxuneen aiwnion epileesee kai oneidos tees xeereias sou ou mee mneestheesee
You're beginning to make sense especially that Lamentations 3:31 verse. I had not considered that.
I will now.
Thanks!
OK, good, you're still considering things :thumbsup: :bigGrin:. Maybe my perception was at least partially wrong that you had pretty much strictly gone into "defend mode". Sorry. :mblush:
WELL i am learning lots please dont stop this discussion
it seems when things are being made clear
thats when the thread freezes ???
we should maybe let the Lord do His thing :HeartThrob:
they did argue among themselves the disciples /students of the Lord
and the Lord spoke the TRUTH ..in the Bible
that is part of it :mblush:
Hi rosie. Not exactly sure what you're responding to my dear friend. What I was specifically addressing is if we were to start getting into the specific "freewill/sovereignty" debate - and that was based on lego's request of Theo to state what she believes, then Theo saying it wasn't allowed on the boads and she wanted a "moderator's OK on it". As a mod, I was just sensing the possibilities of where things could head and using an ounce of prevention ("worth a pound of cure" :bigGrin:).
As do you, I also believe discussion is good, and that's what the boards are for. I don't want to derail the thread with technicalities, but I personally don't believe that general arguing is beneficial - or at least I believe it should have its limits - "let everything be done decently and in order" I Cor. 14:40 and Titus 3:2 "to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. 9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious [divisive] man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned." IMO, that is part of "the Lord doing His thing" - as you said, He's let us know. :bigGrin: Personal Note - Regarding "live peaceably with all men as much as is possible" - you're one of the best :first:.
So no, let's not cut off the discussion, that's not what I was suggesting. In fact, I was requesting Theo clarify her position as requested by legoman. :friendstu:
Discuss away!
Ok ,,, Thanks James for the clarity on your positon and I know moderating can be tough , I would never be able to do this , knowing the way i am :mblush: ,
its just that i thought it was going to be stopped just like the Judas thread was , yesterday , when the thread gets off track , and the personal frustrations come between folks , it seems that there is nothing else to do , but cut it off /nip it in the bud
the discussion about anion and olam and the things CHB and Theo
and Bob and Paul etc brought out are amazing to me and so simple I can ''get it '' in my feartd I thought this was going to be shut down too
my apologies for jumping the gun :sigh: and assuming that was the case
I understand that ''free will ''and sovereignty" is taboo
and hard to get around sometimes when the Ol Adam thing is brought up and out :msealed:
I am so glad your keeping this going
for I am learning lots here at TM an do feel that learning is what God
has blessed his people with , learning of Him and what His desire is for us all
the Wisdom along with the knowledge of Him
the ''full knowledge '' precise and correct'' knowledge in Love , its the kind that makes us all come together in ways that nothing else can
mixed with faith of course ...
Strong's G1922 - epignōsis
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
I understand your position in all this and respect it James :icon_flower:
Had me worried there for a minute jabcat, I saw my post as a quote in your post with MOD NOTE: and for a second I thought I had said or done something I shouldn't have. :heat: :sweat: :Peace2:
CHB
(Not this time, C :laughing7:) Amen, blessings to you both. Things are fine. :2thumbs:
P.S. clarified my "Mod Note" post so it is clear that it's to Theo. Thanks.
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 07:52:57 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:35:19 AM
I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God. That will have to be covered in a later post. I'm getting tired now and will call it a day. God bless you and keep you all. And let us find where truth walks in our own day.
NO... you were NOT "right", brother Theo, so please stop patting yourself on the back... :laughhand:
:laughing7: You "guess" incorrectly bro... We all believe in ETERNITY, and in an ETERNAL God which PRECEEDED all of this.
Just because some see things in a way other than do you, does not remove or negate the observation of the principle (Eternity), because said observation is NOT in line with YOUR present vision of it.
ETERNITY means NO BEGINNING as well as NO END, as CHB has pointed out... It does NOT mean, "from NOW -- on"... which is how most Christians observe it to be.
JESUS noted: BEFORE Abraham WAS [time designation with beginning].. I AM [apart from time]
The WORD, having NO BEGINNING already IS (in place)... prior to TIME'S creation, in which Abraham eventually appeared.
We are FINITE, and in our present state, God has imposed upon us... a FINITE ability to understand/comprehend. Which confines us to TIME and its limitations, and which... in that TEMPORAL condition, is unable to truly and/or COMPLETELY comprehend/behold the ETERNAL setting.
When any FINITE attempts to apply an INFINITE [eternal] application to any (including him/herself) FINITE entity, he/she has stepped OUTSIDE his/her own ability to comprehend... and accordingly shall fail to convey TRUTH concerning this misplaced and invalid application....
For that one is unable to EXPLAIN the unlimited parameters of ETERNITY (which have NO BEGINNING or END), because he/she does not even understand this him/herself. Rendering his/her application of it to him/herself OR another, ...INVALID... :nod:
May God bless within His wisdom, and keep you as well... :friendstu:
...willieH :icon_king:
With respect WH, I cannot respond at this time because your post deals with some issues that are banned, and without Moderator's approval, I will not deal with it. Specifically, your remark about Abraham in John 8 and "beginnings." It all has to do with trinitarianism doctrine developed in John 1:1.
perhaps later.
Quote from: CHB on March 21, 2010, 07:56:00 PM
Hi Theo,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now let's discover how long the "eternity" REALLY is in many leading "selling" English translations:
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude verse 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until-- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53).
Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until--Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13). written by Gary of Tentmaker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There are many more uses of the words eternal and forever that cannot possibly be the right words for the verses they are used in.
If the words eternal and forever that are used in these verses are the actual meanings in these verses how do you explain why they are not still prevalent today?
Take this verse for example: (Lev. 23:41) And ye shall keep it a feast unto the Lord seven days in the year. It shall BE A STATUE FOR EVER {then it says "in your generations"} Which is it "forever" or just in "their generations"? Do you see a problem here?
Theo, how would you explain this? CHB
I wouldn't until after I had studied it in depth. I do see that there is a problem, but I am not sure as to its proper identification, YET! I will be contemplating over the week end, and as far beyond as it takes. Any other information you have to offer will be welcome as long as you don't overwhelm me.
Theo, if you'll look at my last several posts to you, you may find the answers to some of your apparent dilemmas regarding what you keep referencing as an inability to discuss due to moderation/site restrictions/requirements. I believe your concerns have been addressed -
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.msg92720#msg92720
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.msg92460#msg92460
And it's kind of interesting that you never responded to this direct question I asked of you.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7923.msg92467#msg92467
Clarification to all on the board - Theo is short for Theophilus, as in Theophilus Book, and my wife is still laughing at me for some on the board (not your fault) think I am supposed to be the "wife." She knows better, and now, so do you. And please, no apologies, for something you have not done wrong. I am not offended. Just though you'd like to know.
Quote from: jabcat on March 21, 2010, 08:35:41 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:33:09 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 19, 2010, 02:00:23 AM
You know what Theo, God did send you here to teach us something and you to learn something also. I believe we learn from all sources.
You can bet your bottom dollar you are here for some reason that only God knows at this time.
By the way Theo, I don't believe I read what your beliefs are. If you have said I must have missed them. Just what do you believe about punishment and salvation?
CHB
I don't think God sent me here to teach. I think God sent me here to learn if Universal Salvation is truth. There is a difference. between learning truth through asking questions, and teaching through making statements. I offer a combination when I ask a question, and upon receiving a response, make a statement about the response.
What are my beliefs? They are forbidden on this board. THAT is why you have not heard them.
MOD NOTE (per Theo's suggestion) - Hi Theo. It actually appears to me that you have already told us a lot of what you believe through your arguments against UR.
Truth be told, I think I have told you more about what I DON'T believe, and I don't bleieve what I have not studied in depth for myself. MY Study focus fro over fifty years has been Trinity doctrine, as I have suggested, and it ties in with some of the remarks offered in evidence by USALV proponents. And my arguments are not "against UR (I thought it was US; What's the "R?").
QuoteI truly don't know how to open this up any more without getting into outright open debating of discouraged terminology. I really don't think we have to, because again, things can be (and have been already) discussed in detail without focusing on distracting, enflaming, and man-made words/phrases that aren't even in the scriptures.
Agreed! But then you will find that my focus on trinity required that I understand many terms not found in scriptures.
QuoteI have perceived from your posts that you believe
a) there is not UR
b) there may be/probably is a "hell" [or eternal punishement/separation of some sort]
c) mankind has control of "making all the right decisions",
d) if he doesn't, in the end he is lost forever (although you may not be settled on what that will look like exactly)
e) people who believe in UR can be a Christian, but are likely teaching error
f) God has a will that can be overpowered by man's will, so
g) God does not always "get his way"
e) you do want to defend your position rather than be completely open to learning
Please feel free to correct/explain any of this - these are my perceptions of what you've been saying - be as specific as you want to be about what you believe. Ensuing discussion will be moderated determinant upon direction of discussion, focus, spirit, attitude, likely usefulness to the body (strife, dischord, personal attacks) etc. James.
o.k.
a) there is not UR -
Ans:Right! I am not taking the position UR is incorrect, I just am not convinced YET that it IS.
b) there may be/probably is a "hell" [or eternal punishement/separation of some sort]
Ans: I know there is a helol, but it is the grave. I do not know of any pit of fire other than that in which angels are kept in and maybe is reserved for wicked men.
c) mankind has control of "making all the right decisions",
Ans: Absolutely NOT. Man is very capable of making very WRONG decisions, but is free to act upon them, bringing the wrath of God upon them for their decision and followup activities.
d) if he doesn't, in the end he is lost forever (although you may not be settled on what that will look like exactly)
Ans: I think I am beginning to see a difference in this one, though it relates to the prior one. I did not remember seeing the Lamentations 3 verse before, and it has a focus necessary at least for consideration. If there are others similar, i will see them also.
e) people who believe in UR can be a Christian, but are likely teaching error
Ans: I believe this one only if I am appointed Judge by my maker. ONLY God knows them that are his. I hope he knows me among the number. And you.
f) God has a will that can be overpowered by man's will, so
Ans: Not at all. Since he made me in his image and gave me free will, I am empowered to exercise that will after contemplating both sides of the issue it pends. When I exercise myown free will, I should attampt to be directly in line with God's will in all things. THAT is what I understand HIS will to be. When I don't, and mess up, it is MY fault, not God's, which makes it a result of MY will, not that God's will is overpowered, rather it is resisted [Acts 7:51], and I will be revisited in my decisions.
g) God does not always "get his way"
Ans: This is a misnomer. "His way" is what John the Baptist was sent to return the people of god back to. "His Way" is what Jesus preached for three and a half years. The only "way" I know of from scripture is -
Jdgs 2:22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
2 Kings 21:22 And he forsook the LORD God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the LORD.
Mat 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
e) you do want to defend your position rather than be completely open to learning
Ans: Hey, I want to be correct every time I open my mouth. Is that different from other men? I just do not think that should interfere with learning GOD'sTRUTH. Do YOU? And how can one learn truth if not comepletely open to truth?
I have my biases just as you and every person who reads or posts on this board. But I think there are many good hearts here, and I would never tell them "You think you are always right" unless I thought it was a good thing. And I do so think. Why would anyone post something they think is not right? In your posting, don't yopu think you are always right?
I most certainly do. Why make it sound like a fault.
I just do not let my eternal salvation rest on yesterday's understanding. I will, as long as God gives me breath, continue to re-evaluate what I absolutely positively KNOW to be truth, and by nightfall, may know something entirely different than what I absolutely positively KNEW this morning. It is taught in scripture "here a little, there a little, line upon line," and "Be still and know that I am God." All others are in learning mode.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 07:17:37 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 06:29:03 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 05:53:10 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 05:50:16 PM
Same word as that used in Mat 25:46, and used to describe both punishment and salvation. Are you implying it now has THREE meanings?
athanasia (immortality) is not in matthew 25:46.
Right! What's your point? I was addressing "aiwnion" which is in both reference verses.
I am pointing out that the eternal nature of God isn't determined by the word aionios in the first place.
I think the "nature" of God is determined by the totallity of what we are given by God for study.
1 Timothy 1:17 is part of it; - "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God..."
Hebrews 9:14 is part of it; - "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit..."
1 Pet 5:10 is part of it: - "...the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory
I do not depend upon that entirely for that would be foolish and leave out much of scripture, but I certainly must consider it in part.
Quote from: jabcat on March 21, 2010, 11:55:17 PM
Theo, if you'll look at my last several posts to you, you may find the answers to some of your apparent dilemmas regarding what you keep referencing as an inability to discuss due to moderation/site restrictions/requirements. I believe your concerns have been addressed -
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.msg92720#msg92720
Been there
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.msg92460#msg92460
Been there
And it's kind of interesting that you never responded to this direct question I asked of you.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7923.msg92467#msg92467
Received this - "An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.
Back"
Quote from: jabcat on March 21, 2010, 11:55:17 PM
Theo, if you'll look at my last several posts to you, you may find the answers to some of your apparent dilemmas regarding what you keep referencing as an inability to discuss due to moderation/site restrictions/requirements. I believe your concerns have been addressed -
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.msg92720#msg92720
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.msg92460#msg92460
And it's kind of interesting that you never responded to this direct question I asked of you.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7923.msg92467#msg92467
I have been thinking about this and will offer you a possible solution. Suppose I post my thoughts on some matters, you and others decide if they are worth your while pondering, and if you like I can include my e-mail address for correspondance, because I will not be responding to those who respond to the post without a moderator requesting it.
This way, I can offer my understanding. those interested can evaluate it for themselves, and unless a moderator requests it, there will be no further communication on that particular issue. At least you will know why it is an issue with me. My ego is not such that it requires stroking that much, so I will follow your lead in this matter.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 22, 2010, 12:38:18 AM
I think the "nature" of God is determined by the totallity of what we are given by God for study.
True, that is why God can be eternal and the Rock of Ages at the same time.
That's fine Theo.
To answer a couple specific Q's;
UR=Ultimate Reconciliation
Also, I may be wrong about many little details. I believe I was wrong about ET [not a little detail :mshock:], and had little idea - although I think I did wonder for a long time. Anyway, that's why I often post as in my opinion, as I understand it, perhaps, is it possible, etc. :bigGrin:
Quote from: bobf on March 21, 2010, 07:31:03 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 06:25:54 PMWhat's "indefinite" about aiwnion?[
Vague words? Like what?
Aionios and olam are applied to both the everlasting and the tempoary in scripture. I gave you one example. There are even examples where olam (and aionious in the LXX) are applied to the consequences of sin that are temporary according to the immediate context.
Bob, would you mind giving me a reference for this?
willieH: Hi TB... :cloud9:
My reply will be in TWO PARTS...
PART ONEBefore I begin my reply, Thanks for answering... :cloud9:
As well as saying, it is not my concern if you are convinced of anything, for I have no motive to convince... I post as led by my Father...
If it is HIS WILL you hear what I have said, then you will... if not... well, deaf ears are common concerning the speaking and sharing of truth. :dontknow:
(WH)
Quote from: willieHHi TB... :laughing7:
This topic is a bit on the "trollish" side,
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMSorry I missed this one, but since you said you had answered all my questions, I went looking for it. I shall attempt to respond with kindness to some hostility I perceive in your remarks. Or is it simply immaturity on your part?
There is no "hostility" involved, just diagreement with your observations of the
WORD.
The reason for the "trollish" comment, is that many come here and flood the board with ET proposals... just baiting the membership here, instead of actually seeking a good discussion in which either side might benefit and learn...
As far as "immaturity"... :laughing7: ...this is hardly a problem in my life bro... I am 64, having had a lifetime in which I have raised 3 fine children, and am amidst helping rear 10 grandkids.
Just because I try to elminate potentially applicable motives for disruptive people, does not equate to "immaturity"... :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMI don't even know what that terminology [trolling] means. I have seen it on several boards, but no one has ever applied it to my posts before. mind explaining it?
A "troll" is one which comes with a motive of disruption. Seeking to taunt, and procure attention for him/herself... baiting the membership of a given set of beliefs, by waving opposition before them which has no purpose other than disruption.
here is a link explaining this:
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/troll.htm
(WH)
Quote from: willieHas freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"... :director:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMIn case it comes up later, this is the remark I identified as "hostility in your remarks"
Quote"as freely as you have "OPENED your MOUTH"(Capitals YOURS for emphasis)
Many come SPEAKING, few come LISTENING... by you even bothering to answer my request that you reply to my questions, to some degree, removes that.
I apologize if you found it offensive. I have been a member here 7 or 8 years, and have experienced so many which consider themselves "enlightened", and are firm ET preachers, that I at times react early rather than later to the junk they try to peddle in the name of the
GOSPEL.
(WH)
Quote from: willieH
The question I have for you, TB... is shall you LEARN from this failure to refute "UR", or will you attempt to sidestep it? :dontknow:
Let us begin, shall we? :reachout:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PM(TB)
I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;
1) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, [Gen 3:6] in the garden, it must have been God's will.
(WH)YES -- YHVH God works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL -- Eph 1:11
(TB) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve gave to her husband, Adam, and he did eat, also, [Gen 3:6] it must have been God's will.
(WH) YES (see # 1) -- also... this event is IN the WORD, and the WORD which preceeded the event, must needs occur as noted IN the WORD which preceeded the event... :wink3:
(TB) 3) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if cain killed Able, [Gen 4:8] it must have been God's will.
YES (see #1) -- also... the "murder" of Abel is part of the WORD which does NOT CHANGE... and so that "murder" which was PART of the THINGS NOT YET DONE -- Isaiah 46:10 -- had to occur, for the Scriptures [WORD] -- CANNOT be BROKEN -- John 10:34 -- the WORD has NO VARIANCE -- James 1:17 -- and is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever -- Heb 13:8
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMWhy would you quote Isaiah to demonstrate something about the conversation in the garden? I will now quote another covenant to demonstrate a principal that applies to every day since creation; "Where there is no law, sin is not imputed." Adam was not accountable for every word of God since the world began. He was accountable for the sin of disobedience to specific instructions about a specific act of obedience/disobedience.
FIRST --- Obviously you have not considered what
Isaiah 46:10 actually proposes brother... the "things that are NOT DONE"... Includes EVERYTHING which has been "done"... which also includes the murder of Abel by Cain... as well as Adam and Eve partaking of forbidden cuisine.
SECOND --- That the
WORD has not been given to man, does not negate it's activity, within his experience... The
WORD stands as ONE entity... and though ADAM was not given the instruction that the "wages of sin is DEATH"... did not stop this TRUTH from enabling itself in his circumstances... Matter of fact...
ADAM was not even told that his potential "disobedience"
was SIN... Was he? :Chinscratch:
SIN ...is... transgression of the LAW... that the LAW had not yet been given to man (Adam & his descendents), does not mean that it has not been transgressed! Cain killed Abel... and yet there was NO GOVERNING LAW in place, as disclosed by the WORD of GOD, that this act was "SIN"... Does that mean that Cain's act was NOT SIN? Or that the act was NOT TRANSGRESSION of the LAW?
And if nothing was "imputed"... why was CAIN banished?
The
WORD notes that
SIN in fact, ENTERED through ADAM --
Rom 5:12 -- even though the LAW had yet to be given...
(TB)
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PM4) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the sons of God came in unto the daughter's of men, [Gen 6:4] it must have been God's will.
(WH)
Quote from: willieHYES (see #1) -- also... God made woman, to be an HELP, ...meet to MAN, without qualification (in every way) -- Gen 2:20 -- That "help" was not limited or described, so it stands as "help" in every way that MAN needed "help"... do you doubt the WORD which states this? :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMYour responses are bordering on the edge of phantasy. It is not the word of God I doubt, but it is your application of that word of God. I am beginning to think you have no idea whatsoever about what scripture teaches.
The Pharisees ("religious" of their day) "heard" (or rather didn't "hear") with DEAF EARS... some things NEVER CHANGE... :dontknow:
FIRST --- It is not my concern what you think! :laughing7: ...I have been diligently studying the Scriptures since 1976... so please, abstain from supposing upon things, of which you have no idea whatsoever.
SECOND --- As far as "fantasy" is concerned... you, dear brother, are aligned with the
MANY which follow said pathway --
Matt 24:5 -- thinking yourself knowledgeable, as you wallow in the midst of your "deception" which MISLEADS MANY...
(tb)
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PM5) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,[Gen 6:5] it must have been God's will.
(WH)YES (see #1) -- also... God sends man into CAPTIVITY -- Jer 29:14 -- that He might DELIVER him FROM IT... as well as CONCLUDE ALL in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- that He might have MERCY upon ALL -- are you getting any of this, TB? :laughing7:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMI know why you are laughing. You don't believe it either. NO MAN ever begot a son, only to subject him to humiliation of temptation of flesh, subject him to unbelief, subject him to disobedience, just so you as his dear old daddy, can offer him a chance to repent.
[Mod Edit]
Trying to equate the doings of MEN, with GOD's doings...
I have quoted
SCRIPTURE which supports what I claim... and all you do is reply with empty words of your own, failing to note Scriptural support of them. :sigh:
Then you go on to say this:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMit is monstrous in the extreme, and to accuse God of so behaving is unbelievable. All that dows is how that you do not comprehend whaqt the scriptures are actually saying, so you take one sound bite out of context so you can present your mangled view of reality.
Mangled? :pointlaugh: Please! :rolleye:
As I have already noted to you... MANY of a similar RELIGIOUS position as you occupy, have been here, and gone... basically without spirtually affecting ANYONE here.
You esteem your knowledge to hold truth, but quite the opposite is TRUE...
FIRST --- No one has "accused God" of anything. I have noted the
WORD which SAYS that GOD sent His people into CAPTIVITY... and all you can say to that is "
unbelieveable"...
A SCRIPTURELESS self-admission which shows the LACK of FAITH that is necessary to
BELIEVE what the
WORD actually
SAYS... :pitiful:
SECOND --- As DO many of the THEOLOGY of Babylon, so DO YOU... demanding "
CONTEXT" when the
WORD makes no such demand.
*** Please quote ONE VERSE in the ENTIRE Bible, that notes the DEMAND of
CONTEXT.
Don't get me wrong bro... the setting in which PRINCIPLES of the
WORD are placed is important to the entities
addressed... but these PRINCIPLES are NOT IMPRISONED by RELIGIOUS persons such as yourself who would CONFINE them to said "addressees"...
If we were to take YOUR (I say "your" because YOU have demanded CONTEXT) FOOLISH demand of "
CONTEXT"... then the letters of PAUL were written ONLY to those in Corinth, or Phillipi or Ephesus or Galatia... eh?
The CONTEXT of these was not written to you! YOU were not of these communities! ...so in your demand... you must also DEMAND it INAPPLICABLE to you... for YOU were not of those ADDRESSED!
How is THAT for ridiculousness? :laughing7: ...well it is about as ridiculous as you demanding DIVINE principles remain IN CONTEXT. :thumbdown:
As I said... when you ESTABLISH a SCRIPTURAL DIRECTIVE which demands CONTEXT, then I shall have to reconsider what I have just said. If you DON'T... then your DEMAND is garbage, and full of itself, not the
WORD.
END of
PART ONE...willieH :HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi TB... :cloud9:
PART TWOMoving on...
(tb)
Quote6) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will
(WH) YES (see #1) -- also... GOD created EVIL as well as GOOD -- Isaiah 45:7 -- and the KNOWLEDGE of IT, is HIS -- Gen 3:22 -- to have KNOWLEDGE of IT, must therefore be a DIVINE thing... which MANY (likely such as yourself), think to be OPPOSING DIVINITY!
THIS is ridiculous:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMPaul was accused of saying we must do evil so good can result, and he called it "slander;"
Rom 3:8 "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come..." You have now slandered God.
FIRST -- In what way have I "slandered" God? By noting that HE created EVIL? :scratchhead: The
WORD so says... no "slander" in quoting its PLAINLY stated WORDS.
SECOND -- You continue to FOOL yourself with your doctrine bro... GOD has the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... it is NOT SLANDEROUS to note His own CREATION of it --
Isaiah 45:7 -- and it is a characteristic of the DIVINE as noted in
Gen 2:22If the KNOWLEDGE was NOT to be learned, ...then it would NOT have been placed in proximity to MAN, nor MAN in proximity to it... nor would GOD have announced that PROXIMITY.
GOD remains responsible for the fact that MAN has come to KNOW "good and evil"... for HE enabled its access, and informed man OF IT, and INTENDED that he KNOW it.
You are welcome to FOOL yourself all you like. [Mod Edit]
(WH)
Quote from: willieHHow could something which is INHERENT within the Heart of GOD (knowledge of G & E), be OTHER than DIVINE, TB? :dunno:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMI guess probably the same way any other God can deal proudly, because of what is in his heart. Exodus 18:11 "Now I know that the Lord is greater than all Gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them."
There you go, "guessing" again Theo... :grin: [Mod Edit]
(tb)
Quote from: TB7) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.
(WH) YES (see #1) -- also...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMThought you said you answered all my questions?
Theo... the use of the word FOREVER is invalid... and your refusal to observe this, is the beginning of, and the foundational downfall of your teachings...
I did answer this... you just do not accept the answer I gave you. :dontknow:
(WH)
Quote from: willieH(1) use or translation of the word "forever" is INVALID, for until one can COMPLETELY define the word -- (which includes WITHOUT BEGINNING -- by explaining how something has NO BEGINNING, to include why and how that, ...IS?)... Use of the word FOREVER by any finite which does not comprehend said meaning, is therefore INVALID.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMWhy. Because you declared it so? WHATEVER meaning is to be applied to aiwnion salvation, is also to be applied to aiwnion punishment. "And these shall go away into aiwnion [everlasting] punishment: but the righteous into life aiwnion [eternal]." [Mat 25:46]
FIRST --- I have already offered you to EXPLAIN with COMPREHENSION, why and how ANYTHING -- HAS NO BEGINNING... I must have missed your EXPLANATION. :dontknow: Could you REPEAT it for me?
IOW... if you are unable to DEFINE and CONVEY the COMPLETE meaning of a word, then your usage is FOUL, INADAQUATE and FOOLISH. Not to mention UNNACCEPTABLE.
SECOND --- If something is FOR EVER... then it has
ALWAYS BEEN / IS / ALWAYS WILL BE... so the "punishment" you proclaim with the word "aionion"... means that whatever you attach to it (man)... that this man has NEVER been, IS and never WILL BE, in ANY other scenario other than being PUNISHED. How ridiculous is this? :wacko2:
SALVATION is NOT necessary to be an ETERNAL thing... it is a VEHICLE in which we RETURN to where and when WE EMERGED -- ETERNITY... We shall not stay in the "vehicle" of SALVATION... we shall RETURN
with JOY
to JOY, realizing by the experience we have had in this life, how GREAT, the JOY of
YHVH really ...IS...
[Mod Edit]
(WH)
Quote from: willieH(2) GOD shall establish ISRAEL for ever, ...for "ISRAEL" are His Sons, which are without beginning or end... For ALL His SONS were WITH Him, BEFORE entering this realm -- Luke 15:11-32 -- Job 38:7
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMFinally I begin to comprehend where you are getting this stuff from.
Luke 15:11 plainly says "And he said, A certain ANTHRWPOS [man] had two sons:
Hosea 11:9 "... I am God, and not ANTHRWPOS [man]..."
Actually, ANTHROPOS means "MALE COUNTENANCE" and is derived from a word which means GAZE...
This is a Greek term, ...
Hosea 11:9 was not written in GREEK. And does not use the word ANTHROPOS... :dontknow:
No one is arguing that GOD is not a MAN... Hey! -- He's GOD! :boyheart:
Well Theo... I really hate to be the one to tell you, ...but
Luke 15:11 is a PARABLE... :laughing7:
GOD is not a MAN, but the PARABLES place the picture of GOD in them via the image of the FATHER which had TWO SONS.
Who do YOU THINK the PARABLE of the LOST Son is portraying by the use of the words "CERTAIN MAN" [anthropos] and Father, Theo? The POPE? And please BE HONEST...
Do you really envision this story being about other than GOD and His Sons? :omg: If you DO... then there isn't much sense in further discussing with you... :mnah:
[Mod Edit]
[Mod Edit]
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMI think I will take a break, this nonsense is starting to get to me and I do not want to be unkind.
And your use of the word "NONSENSE" is really intended by you to be a "kind" word, ...is it? :laugh:
[Mod Edit]
...willieH :HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi Theo... :hithere:
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 07:52:57 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 02:35:19 AM
I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God. That will have to be covered in a later post. I'm getting tired now and will call it a day. God bless you and keep you all. And let us find where truth walks in our own day.
NO... you were NOT "right", brother Theo, so please stop patting yourself on the back... :laughhand:
:laughing7: You "guess" incorrectly bro... We all believe in ETERNITY, and in an ETERNAL God which PRECEEDED all of this.
Just because some see things in a way other than do you, does not remove or negate the observation of the principle (Eternity), because said observation is NOT in line with YOUR present vision of it.
ETERNITY means NO BEGINNING as well as NO END, as CHB has pointed out... It does NOT mean, "from NOW -- on"... which is how most Christians observe it to be.
JESUS noted: BEFORE Abraham WAS [time designation with beginning]... I AM [apart from time]
The WORD, having NO BEGINNING already IS (in place)... prior to TIME'S creation, in which Abraham eventually appeared.
We are FINITE, and in our present state, God has imposed upon us... a FINITE ability to understand/comprehend. Which confines us to TIME and its limitations, and which... in that TEMPORAL condition, is unable to truly and/or COMPLETELY comprehend/behold the ETERNAL setting.
When any FINITE attempts to apply an INFINITE [eternal] application to any (including him/herself) FINITE entity, he/she has stepped OUTSIDE his/her own ability to comprehend... and accordingly shall fail to convey TRUTH concerning this misplaced and invalid application....
For that one is unable to EXPLAIN the unlimited parameters of ETERNITY (which have NO BEGINNING or END), because he/she does not even understand this him/herself. Rendering his/her application of it to him/herself OR another, ...INVALID... :nod:
May God bless within His wisdom, and keep you as well... :friendstu:
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:43:42 PMWith respect WH, I cannot respond at this time because your post deals with some issues that are banned, and without Moderator's approval, I will not deal with it. Specifically, your remark about Abraham in John 8 and "beginnings." It all has to do with trinitarianism doctrine developed in John 1:1.
With respect...
What a cop out! The "TRINITY" has nothing whatsoever to do with my post, and said
"cop out" is unacceptable excuse employed by you, due to the LACK of understanding of words you freely use and DO NOT UNDERSTAND.
EXPLAIN ETERNITY... to include HOW and WHY GOD has NO BEGINNING... :dontknow: ...If you cannot, then you (or anyone else) INVALIDLY use any of the following words: FOR EVER... EVERLASTING... ETERNITY... and ETERNAL... for they cannot be DEFINED in FINITE terminolgy with COMPREHENSION, to FINITE minds...
And btw...
John 1:1 has NOTHING to do with any UNBIBLICAL "trinity"... :mnah:
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: Theo Book
With respect WH, I cannot respond at this time because your post deals with some issues that are banned, and without Moderator's approval, I will not deal with it. Specifically, your remark about Abraham in John 8 and "beginnings." It all has to do with trinitarianism doctrine developed in John 1:1.
perhaps later.
Please proceed,
Thank you for being considerate! This site is devoted to the discussion of U.R. The trinity topic is off limits because it distracts from the U.R. focus. Basically it's a hot topic that upsets some! Just try to keep your post from seeming to convert others from one view or another and you will be fine.
Paul
Quote from: jabcat on March 21, 2010, 10:14:50 PM
Hi rosie. Not exactly sure what you're responding to my dear friend. What I was specifically addressing is if we were to start getting into the specific "freewill/sovereignty" debate - and that was based on lego's request of Theo to state what she believes, then Theo saying it wasn't allowed on the boads and she wanted a "moderator's OK on it". As a mod, I was just sensing the possibilities of where things could head and using an ounce of prevention ("worth a pound of cure" :bigGrin:).
As do you, I also believe discussion is good, and that's what the boards are for. I don't want to derail the thread with technicalities, but I personally don't believe that general arguing is beneficial - or at least I believe it should have its limits - "let everything be done decently and in order" I Cor. 14:40 and Titus 3:2 "to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. 9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious [divisive] man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned." IMO, that is part of "the Lord doing His thing" - as you said, He's let us know. :bigGrin: Personal Note - Regarding "live peaceably with all men as much as is possible" - you're one of the best :first:.
So no, let's not cut off the discussion, that's not what I was suggesting. In fact, I was requesting Theo clarify her position as requested by legoman. :friendstu:
Discuss away!
One thought for clarification before I post Jabcat. If I post my own understanding of what scripture teaches should I post it in this thread? Or would that be interpreted as an interruption, or worse, a usurpation? Or, should I begin a new thread with an identifying title so it can be deleted if warranted? My ego can go eithher way as it is buried in Christ.
If I post in this thread, it would be in response to response number 152 on page 7 of the thread, and will include issues related to "the beginning" and "trinity doctrine from John 1:1."
Please advise.
Theo, you have been given very many fine answers here already, but you seem to be stuck in your own doctrine. As willieH said previously, you won't be converting anyone here, and if that is your reason for being here, it truly is one of futility, and will only lead to strife. So far all the arguments you raise against UR have been examined by me already (and I would guess by all other residents of tentmaker as well), when they were searching for the truth and finally found God's truth of UR.
I hope you can look at the answers I give here, and be
open to
learning, and be open to the ideas that you have been taught from the mainstream ET belief
may be
incorrect. I believed much the same way you do for MANY years.
Quote
When we take clay and make pots, we do not design in the pots evil uses. When we sell the pots, some men will purchase them and put them to evil use. That eventuallity was not designed into the pots.
God made all the vessels of which he references as "vessels of honour, vessels of dishonour" but he did not put in any of them the propensity for sin. Only the free will ability. And he also included in his creation, the solutions for sin, IN CASE they are needed. THAT was predicated upon the proposition that some men would probably sin, not because God created them TO sin.
Let me address the end of your post here first, as it shows the
root of your error. First of all you suggest God makes pots, and then some evil men use the "pots" for evil uses, uses they were not intended for. But Theo, WE are the POTS, and God is using US for His purposes, some which are for honor and some for dishonor. God designed it all.
Secondly, you say "God did not put in the propensity for sin, only the free will ability"... Come now Theo, if, according to you, we sin because we have free will, then God DID PUT IN the propensity for sin, by the very act of granting us the so-called free will!
Thirdly, and here is the real problem, you say God designed a solution for sin "IN CASE" it was needed!?!?! This was done because some men would "probably" sin!?!?!?!?
"IN CASE"? "PROBABLY"?
Now I must ask if
you are being
serious? Are you saying that God did something just "in case"? Because something "probably" might happen?!? If you are saying that (and it sounds like you are because that is what you wrote), then you are also admitting that you think God is NOT all-knowing and DOES NOT have perfect foreknowledge.
You are saying God didn't know if we would sin or not so He had Jesus ready just "in case" because He thought we would "probably" sin. Essentially God had a "backup plan", a plan B, and His original plan was not perfect and actually went astray. In effect, you are saying God is not really responsible for anything, because HE DIDN'T KNOW IT WOULD HAPPEN! This is absurd & ridiculous.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
God has already declared
everything that will happen - the end from the beginning, including the things that are not yet done. He not only
knows the future, He
declares what it will be. God's counsel shall be done and He will do his pleasure, which includes His desire and will to save all men (1 Tim 2:4).
If you continue to believe this nonsense that God didn't know if we would sin or not, then you will not be able to understand and appreciate the truth of UR, nor will you understand God's power in the matter at hand.
Please I hope you really consider your belief here, and how it makes God appear, and how it contrasts with what scripture actually says, being that God IS all-knowing, and IS in control, and WORKS all things according to HIS will.
God has no need for a plan B my friend.
I will continue more in the next post as this is getting too long...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:50:28 AM
(Theo)Quote
I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;
... questions 1-6 ...
(legoman) Yes these were all God's will.
Are you serious? Perhaps you read a different translation than I. You really think it was God's will that men sin? Please show me THAT scripture.
If it was not God's will that men sin, then man's will is more powerful than God's.
You ask for the scripture, it has already been given to you, but here they are again:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creature (creation) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
What is sin but disobedience of God's commands? Yet God binds all men to disobedience. Pride (vanity) is sin. Yet God has subjected all creation (men) to vanity.
Now if sin is simply a product of "free will", why is it that no man in all of history (except one - Christ), has ever used their free will to NOT SIN? Why are all men sinners? No one can choose to NOT be a sinner. If it was not, as you say, God's intention that we sin, and ALSO no one can choose to NOT be a sinner, then who is responsible for us being sinners? Adam? Satan? Are Adam & Satan's will more powerful than God's will?
Quote
You have now contradicted what you said earlier; "Yes, these were all God's will." Now you say "God does not will something to happen that will frustrate his will." Which is it?
There is no contradiction here. Read what I'm saying carefully. God does not will something that frustrates his own will. If He did, that would be contradictory in itself. We are disobedient (remember disobedience is sin) BECAUSE GOD WILLED IT TO BE SO, and bound us over to disobedience.
For right now, that is God's will for the human race. He has subjected the whole creation to VANITY, and bound us to DISOBEDIENCE. God's will is not being frustrated at all because that is what He wants RIGHT NOW. Later on God will DELIVER the creation from this BONDAGE and have MERCY on us all. That is God's will for the creation which will happen to completion sometime in the future, and that will not be frustrated either.
God's will is NOT frustrated.
Quote
Not sure! Brain freeze! I think you got it backwards. We are ALREADY made in the image of God. Adam was made sinless. If your assessment is correct GOD got it backwards. I do not believe that for one moment.
No my friend, you and most of church tradition have it backwards. We are not fully made in the image of God yet. If you look at Gen 1:27 in the original languages, you will see the tense is "is being created" as opposed to "was created" as in:
Man is being created in the image of God. RIGHT NOW. And in the future... until God has completed making man in His image.
But according to you and mainstream tradition, man who was in the perfect exact final image of God,
SINNED! How ridiculous is that? Think about it. If man is in the perfect express image of God, how can man sin since God does not sin?
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You show a God who not only creates man TO sin, but even as he creates them TO sin, he tells them to NOT sin. THAT is insanity. God is not insane.
No, believing God doesn't know that man would sin or not is insane. Believing God purposes or allows people to be tormented for ever is insane. You are right that God is not insane though.
Scripture shows that God binds all men to disobedience and subjects us to vanity. God then explains what sin is through His commandments and laws, and shows us how sin is overcome through Jesus and through the commandments of Love. Of course we fail to live up to these laws, GOD KNEW and INTENDED THIS WOULD HAPPEN. We thus experience the utter depths and futility of failure, sin, and evil. This is IMPORTANT for our spiritual growth and understanding. This allows us to learn what NON-LOVE is, so we can eventually fully appreciate and understand what LOVE is. Ultimately we WILL (future tense) be made into the exact express image of God, which
is LOVE.
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How can you conclude that for God to give men free will is a mistake? God has free will and we are made in his image. I begin to comprehend how it is Universal Salvation becomes a welcome doctrine among men. It eliminates the guilt of sin by putting the blame all on God for making us sinners to begin with.
I didn't say that. I said
if God intended and purposed us NOT to sin, yet here we are sinning, then God made a mistake - a miscalculation, a mis-step; He had to change his plan IN CASE we sinned as YOU suggest. Now since YOU do believe God did NOT intend us to sin, and you stated He needed a backup plan IN CASE we sinned, you yourself have then admitted that God did indeed make the mistake, because his original plan was FOILED by the very "free will" man was given.
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(legoman)QuoteTo do that we have to experience evil. From the CLV:
Eccl 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it
God is giving us an experience of evil. Think about the ramifications of that.
Actually, the quote says - 12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith. 14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
"This sore travail" is a reference to his "seeking and searching out by wisdom all things that are done under heaven." "Seeking and searching" are not sin.
"This sore travail" is actually translated from the hebrew word "Ra" which means "EVIL", the same word in the "tree of knowledge of good and evil (Ra)".
The version I quoted was the Concordant Literal Version, which translates word for word:
Eccl 1:13 "It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to
humble them by it" (Concorant Old Testament).
God created evil (Isaiah 45:7) so that we would experience it (Eccl 1:13) so that we would be HUMBLED and LEARN.
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(theo)Quote
(Theo)
22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a god of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?
(legoman) "why do you correct me" you say. Why not? Because God has given me a heart to search out the truth and preach the gospel, that's why! Remember God's will does not frustrate His own will. God sets us up in disobedience, puts us through suffering, so He can have mercy on us later, show His glory, and perfect us as sons.
Nope! If all those things in which men sinned was God's will, and I teach truth about it, how then is it I am to be corrected? Am I not already correct, by your understanding of what constitutes God's will? You could NOT correct me, for it was already God's will for me to say those things, and you cannot thwart God's will, according to your comprehension of how things are.
Then perhaps God's will for you RIGHT NOW is to oppose the teachings of UR on this tentmaker website, while God's will for me is to defend the teachings of UR here on this same website. This cannot and will not change until God changes one of our hearts and opens our eyes. In effect God's will is for us to FRUSTRATE each other! Yet God's will is not frustrated in this, because that is what He intended!
Perhaps we should pray that God will bring our two wills into agreement? God - who is the savior of all men, and who will have all men to be saved - how should He finally resolve our apparent conflict, which He has intended to happen, so that we would both LEARN? God will eventually bring us all to our knees, and we will all bow in agreement JOYFULLY PRAISING that He is Lord and Savior of all! Scripture declares it.
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Again, you missed the condition in which Adam was placed in the garden. He was not created in sin, a sinner. He was created innocent UNTIL he sinned. THAT constituted the first "change of heart" resulting in rebellion against God. YOU HAVE EVERYTHING BACKWARDS.
Adam was a SINNER from the beginning, just like the rest of us. Adam did not have a choice to NOT be a sinner, for He was always intended to eat of the forbidden fruit. God was not rolling dice and waiting to see if Adam was a sinner or not, while holding Jesus in reserve "IN CASE" Adam "probably" would sin!
God KNEW how it would all go down, God INTENDED it, because God had already prepared the lamb of God BEFORE any human was ever created. God has bound all men to disobedience (this includes Adam). And He will have mercy on all men.
WOW!!! legoman, that was two great post, thank you for them. :thumbsup: :happy3:
CHB
Quote from: willieH on March 22, 2010, 06:01:47 AM
willieH: Hi TB... :cloud9:
PART TWO
Moving on...
(tb)Quote6) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will
(WH) YES (see #1) -- also... GOD created EVIL as well as GOOD -- Isaiah 45:7 -- and the KNOWLEDGE of IT, is HIS -- Gen 3:22 -- to have KNOWLEDGE of IT, must therefore be a DIVINE thing... which MANY (likely such as yourself), think to be OPPOSING DIVINITY!
THIS is ridiculous:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMPaul was accused of saying we must do evil so good can result, and he called it "slander;"
Rom 3:8 "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come..." You have now slandered God.
FIRST -- In what way have I "slandered" God? By noting that HE created EVIL? :scratchhead: The WORD so says... no "slander" in quoting its PLAINLY stated WORDS.
SECOND -- You continue to FOOL yourself with your doctrine bro... GOD has the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... it is NOT SLANDEROUS to note His own CREATION of it -- Isaiah 45:7 -- and it is a characteristic of the DIVINE as noted in Gen 2:22
If the KNOWLEDGE was NOT to be learned, ...then it would NOT have been placed in proximity to MAN, nor MAN in proximity to it... nor would GOD have announced that PROXIMITY.
GOD remains responsible for the fact that MAN has come to KNOW "good and evil"... for HE enabled its access, and informed man OF IT, and INTENDED that he KNOW it.
You are welcome to FOOL yourself all you like. [Mod Edit]
(WH)Quote from: willieHHow could something which is INHERENT within the Heart of GOD (knowledge of G & E), be OTHER than DIVINE, TB? :dunno:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMI guess probably the same way any other God can deal proudly, because of what is in his heart. Exodus 18:11 "Now I know that the Lord is greater than all Gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them."
There you go, "guessing" again Theo... :grin: [Mod Edit]
(tb)Quote from: TB7) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.
(WH) YES (see #1) -- also...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMThought you said you answered all my questions?
Theo... the use of the word FOREVER is invalid... and your refusal to observe this, is the beginning of, and the foundational downfall of your teachings...
I did answer this... you just do not accept the answer I gave you. :dontknow:
(WH)Quote from: willieH(1) use or translation of the word "forever" is INVALID, for until one can COMPLETELY define the word -- (which includes WITHOUT BEGINNING -- by explaining how something has NO BEGINNING, to include why and how that, ...IS?)... Use of the word FOREVER by any finite which does not comprehend said meaning, is therefore INVALID.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMWhy. Because you declared it so? WHATEVER meaning is to be applied to aiwnion salvation, is also to be applied to aiwnion punishment. "And these shall go away into aiwnion [everlasting] punishment: but the righteous into life aiwnion [eternal]." [Mat 25:46]
FIRST --- I have already offered you to EXPLAIN with COMPREHENSION, why and how ANYTHING -- HAS NO BEGINNING... I must have missed your EXPLANATION. :dontknow: Could you REPEAT it for me?
[Mod edit] Not to mention UNNACCEPTABLE.
SECOND --- If something is FOR EVER... then it has ALWAYS BEEN / IS / ALWAYS WILL BE... so the "punishment" you proclaim with the word "aionion"... means that whatever you attach to it (man)... that this man has NEVER been, IS and never WILL BE, in ANY other scenario other than being PUNISHED. How ridiculous is this? :wacko2:
SALVATION is NOT necessary to be an ETERNAL thing... it is a VEHICLE in which we RETURN to where and when WE EMERGED -- ETERNITY... We shall not stay in the "vehicle" of SALVATION... we shall RETURN with JOY to JOY, realizing by the experience we have had in this life, how GREAT, the JOY of YHVH really ...IS...
[Mod Edit]
(WH) Quote from: willieH(2) GOD shall establish ISRAEL for ever, ...for "ISRAEL" are His Sons, which are without beginning or end... For ALL His SONS were WITH Him, BEFORE entering this realm -- Luke 15:11-32 -- Job 38:7
Finally I begin to comprehend where you are getting this stuff from.
Luke 15:11 plainly says "And he said, A certain ANTHRWPOS [man] had two sons:
Hosea 11:9 "... I am God, and not ANTHRWPOS [man]..."
Actually, ANTHROPOS means "MALE COUNTENANCE" and is derived from a word which means GAZE...
This is a Greek term, ...
Hosea 11:9 was not written in GREEK. And does not use the word ANTHROPOS... :dontknow:
No one is arguing that GOD is not a MAN... Hey! -- He's GOD! :boyheart:
Well Theo... I really hate to be the one to tell you, ...but
Luke 15:11 is a PARABLE... :laughing7:
GOD is not a MAN, but the PARABLES place the picture of GOD in them via the image of the FATHER which had TWO SONS.
Who do YOU THINK the PARABLE of the LOST Son is portraying by the use of the words "CERTAIN MAN" [anthropos] and Father, Theo? The POPE? And please BE HONEST...
Do you really envision this story being about other than GOD and His Sons? :omg: If you DO... then there isn't much sense in further discussing with you... :mnah:
[Mod Edit]
[Mod Edit]
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:06:01 PMI think I will take a break, this nonsense is starting to get to me and I do not want to be unkind.
And your use of the word "NONSENSE" is really intended by you to be a "kind" word, ...is it? :laugh:
[Mod Edit]
...willieH :HeartThrob:
[/quote]
I will now post the response your two-part thesis deserves.
(..)
Quote from: CHB on March 22, 2010, 04:55:30 PM
WOW!!! legoman, that was two great post, thank you for them. :thumbsup: :happy3:
CHB
Amen Charlotte... those were GREAT POSTS! :goodpost:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 22, 2010, 02:09:11 AMQuote from: bobf on March 21, 2010, 07:31:03 PMThere are even examples where olam (and aionious in the LXX) are applied to the consequences of sin that are temporary according to the immediate context.
Bob, would you mind giving me a reference for this?
Sure Theo... here are some examples...
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.old = olam, aionion
My interpretation: Why are people in mourning, ashes, brokenhearted, captive, bound, spirit of heaviness? Because of disobedience to God which brings desolation and "everlasting" wastes in the day of God's vengeance. But Jesus came to save people out from these aionion wastes in the "acceptable year of the Lord" i.e. the day of salvation.
Isaiah 58:12 has similar language. Christ and those "of Him" i.e His seed will repair the everlasting wastes. This IMO ties in with Daniel 12:2-3 "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they
that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."
Isaiah 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. 12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. old = olam, aionion
One more example
Isaiah 32:12 They shall lament for the teats, for the pleasant fields, for the fruitful vine. 13 Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns [and] briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city: 14 Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; 15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest. for ever = olam, unto the aion
BTW... it was not the usual UR proof texts that led me to believe God would save all mankind. It was studying the judgments and wrath of God passages and seeing purpose in God's wrath that did it for me. Things like
- Deuteronomy 4 - even in the "last day" a person can repent and God will have mercy. Of those condemned Jesus said, in the last day my word will judge him.
- Deuteronomy 28-31 - even when all the curse of the law is upon a person he can still repent and God will have mercy
- Daniel 4 - seems to tie in with Christ parables about cutting down the tree and casting into the fire
- Ezekiel 16 - Sodom and those worse than Sodom were/will be judged and yet saved
- Psalm 107 - the redeemed of the Lord first condemned the Word of God yet are ultimately saved
- Deuteronomy 32 - God's wrath/judgment/vengeance upon the vine of Sodom and Gommorah includes God repenting and having compassion when their power is gone i.e. when they are humbled and return to God)
- Comparing Isaiah 60 vs Revelation 21 - the gates remain open always (mercy neve ends) for those who turn to the Lord
- Lamentations 3 - person sitting under God's wrath for sin will be saved. The Lord
will not cast off forever the children of men for sin. The exact opposite of ET and ED doctrines which say that the Lord
will cast off the children of men forever for their sin.
God bless.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 22, 2010, 02:21:11 PM
Quote from: jabcat on March 21, 2010, 10:14:50 PM
Hi rosie. Not exactly sure what you're responding to my dear friend. What I was specifically addressing is if we were to start getting into the specific "freewill/sovereignty" debate - and that was based on lego's request of Theo to state what she believes, then Theo saying it wasn't allowed on the boads and she wanted a "moderator's OK on it". As a mod, I was just sensing the possibilities of where things could head and using an ounce of prevention ("worth a pound of cure" :bigGrin:).
As do you, I also believe discussion is good, and that's what the boards are for. I don't want to derail the thread with technicalities, but I personally don't believe that general arguing is beneficial - or at least I believe it should have its limits - "let everything be done decently and in order" I Cor. 14:40 and Titus 3:2 "to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. 9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious [divisive] man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned." IMO, that is part of "the Lord doing His thing" - as you said, He's let us know. :bigGrin: Personal Note - Regarding "live peaceably with all men as much as is possible" - you're one of the best :first:.
So no, let's not cut off the discussion, that's not what I was suggesting. In fact, I was requesting Theo clarify her position as requested by legoman. :friendstu:
Discuss away!
One thought for clarification before I post Jabcat. If I post my own understanding of what scripture teaches should I post it in this thread? Or would that be interpreted as an interruption, or worse, a usurpation? Or, should I begin a new thread with an identifying title so it can be deleted if warranted? My ego can go eithher way as it is buried in Christ.
If I post in this thread, it would be in response to response number 152 on page 7 of the thread, and will include issues related to "the beginning" and "trinity doctrine from John 1:1."
Please advise.
Hi Theo, thanks for checking. I personally think either way is OK, but since you've mentioned it, a new thread might be good. That way we can keep it separate, and here's what I'm really thinking. It would give you a chance to state what you believe clearly and succinctly, let a few people respond and you reply a time or two to them, then before (IF) it appears to be headed too deeply into disallowed debates on the boards, it will be easier to moderate there, rather than having to lock a thread in which so many are already deeply involved in a more "general" discussion such as this current thread. It's a good idea, I like it, thanks again for checking.
**Also, plz get everything you think could be "problematic" regarding forum guidelines said in detail, as again, it
may have a short shelf life :laughing7: before we need to get back "on track". Believe me, there are good reasons why certain topics are not allowed in depth - there's been a long, intense history of certain topics not being handled well by individuals - too many arguments, hurt feelings, complaints, strife, dischord, division, etc. *I personally have some beliefs on some of these topics that I don't discuss openly myself, due to the guidelines. It's just the way it is, and will continue to be in the foreseeable future.
** Plz copy and paste this into your new thread;
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MOD NOTE - Theo's new thread is being started by special permission, and could be time-limited due to the potential direction it may take (based upon forum guidelines). It will be monitored closely, and an opportunity will be given for several statements and rebuttals, etc., but then possibly locked after a short period of time so as to keep within forum expectations - dependent of course, upon content and direction of discussion. Thanks, the mod board.
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Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 03:01:25 PMIf the arguments posted all over the website about "aiwnion" NOT meaning eternal, but "age" are any indication of what this site is about, then I am correct, not simply "overloaded" and "already thinking you are wrong" as you indicate.
In Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," both "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same form of the same word, "aiwnion" and therfore cannot be used to mean two radically different and opposing timeframes.
Theo you wrote you spend 50 years studying Trinty. You also have a forum that is focusing on Trintity. Why study so long on a subject that can be explained in 10 verses?
It's a bit the same with aion. The word is simple. But when you start applying it may seem to contradict. Or state Father is not eternal. And to clear up those questions much more verses/study is needed. I assume that's not unlike a solid Trinity study.
Let me give you a thought to consider....
wwMat 25:46 "And these shall goto jail for 100 years: but the righteous shall party for a 100 years,"
Nope that verse is not from a special UR Bible :laughing7: Just me changing some words to clarify.
What does that verse tells us?
1. The wicked will spend 100 years in jail.
2. The rightous will have 100 years of parting.
What does it not say?
1. What happens after those 100 years to both groups.
2. Many, many, many other things.
That's just one thought.
There are many post on the subject. But a new thread on teh subject recently got started here (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7922.msg92533#msg92533)
If he has his own forum — why bring it here?
And then give him his own thread in which to clang his cymbals?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 22, 2010, 09:18:07 PM
If he has his own forum — why bring it here?
And then give him his own thread in which to clang his cymbals?
Amen bro... :thumbsup:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
We may disagree with a lot of what Theo might be saying, but I do not see it any more of a clang than the threads us regular members can come up with and battle back and forth about.
We all, then, should happily have our own threads whose topics are ourselves.
I've been thinking about this on my way to work. It's probably not the best decision to do this. I think I'll ask Theo that you go ahead and discuss your beliefs without completely, directly delving into the discouraged topics as had previously been clarified. I.e., we can discuss our beliefs without using hot-button terminology - discuss the scriptures.
As far as the objections from David and you Willi, you both may have a legitimate point. However, I'd ask you to consider the leeway that is often given to members - some way more than others - which also bears further consideration.
Thanks Paul for your input as well.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 22, 2010, 11:20:17 PM
We all, then, should happily have our own threads whose topics are ourselves.
Theo was being respectful about what he does say in hoping to avoid being banned and offending, I would say that there is a clang going on yes indeed.
Theo said this to what I took GREAT OFFENSE:
"I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God."
And THAT, Paul, was hardly respectful to me or our Lord Jesus Christ Savior of All Mankind.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 22, 2010, 11:39:42 PM
Theo said this to what I took GREAT OFFENSE:
"I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God."
And THAT, Paul, was hardly respectful to me or our Lord Jesus Christ Savior of All Mankind.
It did not offend me, sounds like a personal issue that you should take up with the mods.
He has made many other respectful comments, but I see that you cannot see that because the stone in your hand is blocking your vision.
He insulted my faith and my God, yes it's personal.
And I have no issue with the mods.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 22, 2010, 11:49:37 PM
He insulted my faith and my God, yes it's personal.
And I have no issue with the mods.
Well then throw the stone.
The stone is Christ whom we all must fall upon or it will fall upon us.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 22, 2010, 11:52:44 PM
The stone is Christ whom we all must fall upon or it will fall upon us.
Well then whatever insult you think occured is moot.
Hardly, Paul.
He came here, despite having his own forum.
Insults members and their God.
Now, he gets his own thread.
I see no reason continuing to flatter his ego.
David...read my last post...it's been reconsidered. :bigGrin:
And I agree, Paul, for the most part Theo has been pretty considerate - especially compared to most of the obvious ETers that come through here - and even compared to a very small minority of our own membership (not you, David).
I hope we can consider this settled, and all continue to discuss the scriptures and our understanding of them - for the edification of all. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 23, 2010, 12:00:13 AM
Hardly, Paul.
He came here, despite having his own forum.
Insults members and their God.
Now, he gets his own thread.
I see no reason continuing to flatter his ego.
Sorry, move your ego over a mile or two and maybe I'll take another look at Theo's.
Amen James.
Quote from: bobf on March 22, 2010, 08:26:10 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 22, 2010, 02:09:11 AMQuote from: bobf on March 21, 2010, 07:31:03 PMThere are even examples where olam (and aionious in the LXX) are applied to the consequences of sin that are temporary according to the immediate context.
Bob, would you mind giving me a reference for this?
Sure Theo... here are some examples...
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
old = olam, aionion
My interpretation: Why are people in mourning, ashes, brokenhearted, captive, bound, spirit of heaviness? Because of disobedience to God which brings desolation and "everlasting" wastes in the day of God's vengeance. But Jesus came to save people out from these aionion wastes in the "acceptable year of the Lord" i.e. the day of salvation.
Isaiah 58:12 has similar language. Christ and those "of Him" i.e His seed will repair the everlasting wastes. This IMO ties in with Daniel 12:2-3 "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."
Isaiah 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. 12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
old = olam, aionion
One more example
Isaiah 32:12 They shall lament for the teats, for the pleasant fields, for the fruitful vine. 13 Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns [and] briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city: 14 Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; 15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
for ever = olam, unto the aion
BTW... it was not the usual UR proof texts that led me to believe God would save all mankind. It was studying the judgments and wrath of God passages and seeing purpose in God's wrath that did it for me. Things like
- Deuteronomy 4 - even in the "last day" a person can repent and God will have mercy. Of those condemned Jesus said, in the last day my word will judge him.
- Deuteronomy 28-31 - even when all the curse of the law is upon a person he can still repent and God will have mercy
- Daniel 4 - seems to tie in with Christ parables about cutting down the tree and casting into the fire
- Ezekiel 16 - Sodom and those worse than Sodom were/will be judged and yet saved
- Psalm 107 - the redeemed of the Lord first condemned the Word of God yet are ultimately saved
- Deuteronomy 32 - God's wrath/judgment/vengeance upon the vine of Sodom and Gommorah includes God repenting and having compassion when their power is gone i.e. when they are humbled and return to God)
- Comparing Isaiah 60 vs Revelation 21 - the gates remain open always (mercy neve ends) for those who turn to the Lord
- Lamentations 3 - person sitting under God's wrath for sin will be saved. The Lord will not cast off forever the children of men for sin. The exact opposite of ET and ED doctrines which say that the Lord will cast off the children of men forever for their sin.
God bless.
Thanks Bob.
The problem that remains for me to deal with, is, all the passages in the new covenant that seem to be saying something about eternal punishment, and some say they are all mistranslations. I have been sstudying that issue (mistranslations) for many years, and agree, it happens. But when it come to eternal salvation, I cannot depend upon a "maybe" response. Does that make sense?
If I did not desperately
WANT to accept what you guys are saying, I would not spend so much time on this board, I would just settle for what I already think I know. But Instead, I believe there are many issues raised in Christianinty that are contrived, and eternal damnation may well be one of them. But so can USAL. I am not being "turned by every wind of doctrine" here, I am simply trying to get clear answers, without offense to ANYONE, and be given whatever time it takes to assimilate it into my understanding.
I do thank you for your input.
From some of the responses my posts are getting, it might be better to just move on, yet I hesitate because I really do want to know. I just do not want to sit quietly by and aloloow someone to destroy my character with opinions that are expressed that have nothing to do with reality.
What to do...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 23, 2010, 12:07:39 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 23, 2010, 12:00:13 AM
Hardly, Paul.
He came here, despite having his own forum.
Insults members and their God.
Now, he gets his own thread.
I see no reason continuing to flatter his ego.
Sorry, move your ego over a mile or two and maybe I'll take another look at Theo's.
I beg your pardon?
I beg your pardon?
Quote from: Pierac on March 22, 2010, 06:29:31 AM
Quote from: Theo Book
With respect WH, I cannot respond at this time because your post deals with some issues that are banned, and without Moderator's approval, I will not deal with it. Specifically, your remark about Abraham in John 8 and "beginnings." It all has to do with trinitarianism doctrine developed in John 1:1.
perhaps later.
Please proceed,
Thank you for being considerate! This site is devoted to the discussion of U.R. The trinity topic is off limits because it distracts from the U.R. focus. Basically it's a hot topic that upsets some! Just try to keep your post from seeming to convert others from one view or another and you will be fine.
Paul
I am rethinking my offer, and do not want to disrupt the proccess you already have. Suppose I post my URL to the moderators, let them look at my post, and decide if it belongs on this board. I realy do not weant to cause a rift in the character of this board. What say you?
Speak you mind man and stop tip-toeing through the tulips.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 23, 2010, 12:23:11 AM
Speak you mind man and stop tip-toeing through the tulips.
I did.
Please see my last post directly to you. It's fine to discuss our beliefs and understandings, I just have re-thought the idea of allowing a limited window of "anything goes"...it's what I've suggested before. Discuss the scriptures, staying away from "loaded, hot-button" phrases and terminology that have a history of just enflaming the boards.
Sorry if it's obvious, but I'll still give an example - we could do this; You - "there's freewill". Me - "no there's not freewill" You - "yes there is freewill". Me - no there's not freewill stupid". You - "Yes there is, you idiot". :swordfight:
Or, we could go; You - "I believe we have to make choices". Me - "I do too, what do you think that looks like?". You - "well, this verse says this, so here's how I understand it". Me - "well, that's a good point, but how do you think this scripture fits in there"?
Not asking you to go anywhere, and we're also asking that others post appropriately without personally impugning you or anyone else - that's in process. James.
OK, both of you my friends David and Paul. Plz take this to PM if it needs to continue. Any further personal food-fighting will be edited out. Maybe it's not worth it? :grouppray:
Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2010, 12:26:42 AM
OK, both of you my friends David and Paul. Plz take this to PM if it needs to continue. Any further food-fighting will be edited out. Maybe it's not worth it? :grouppray:
I'm done.
I never threw a thing.
:laughing7: Blessings to you both.
And for the record, Theo, perhaps you do but — I DO NOT SERVE A MORTAL GOD.
Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2010, 12:30:29 AM
:laughing7: Blessings to you both.
No problem, but I have been in a real food fight and whipped cream pies really are fun to throw, really, try it. :laughing7:
Yum yum :Peace2:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 12:13:22 AM
The problem that remains for me to deal with, is, all the passages in the new covenant that seem to be saying something about eternal punishment, and some say they are all mistranslations. I have been sstudying that issue (mistranslations) for many years, and agree, it happens. But when it come to eternal salvation, I cannot depend upon a "maybe" response. Does that make sense?
If I did not desperately
WANT to accept what you guys are saying, I would not spend so much time on this board, I would just settle for what I already think I know. But Instead, I believe there are many issues raised in Christianinty that are contrived, and eternal damnation may well be one of them. But so can USAL. I am not being "turned by every wind of doctrine" here, I am simply trying to get clear answers, without offense to ANYONE, and be given whatever time it takes to assimilate it into my understanding.
I do thank you for your input.
From some of the responses my posts are getting, it might be better to just move on, yet I hesitate because I really do want to know. I just do not want to sit quietly by and aloloow someone to destroy my character with opinions that are expressed that have nothing to do with reality.
What to do...
Hi Theo, I appreciate your post here, it seems you are genuinely seeking and trying to understand what it is we believe.
Perhaps it would be helpful to start a new thread about "eternal/aionios", specifically Matt 25:46 which seems to be one of the main problem verses for you? You've brought it up several times, and people have given you some responses, but you remain unconvinced... it would be good to explore that. I can start a thread later on it if I have a moment (and if you haven't already).
Also, have you considered just sitting down and reading a really good intro to UR? Have you read the book called "Hope beyond Hell"? It is available in PDF format on the main page, right here:
http://tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
It might be helpful to read through it to get the basics down.
Quote from: legoman on March 22, 2010, 03:19:05 PM
Quote
When we take clay and make pots, we do not design in the pots evil uses. When we sell the pots, some men will purchase them and put them to evil use. That eventuallity was not designed into the pots.
God made all the vessels of which he references as "vessels of honour, vessels of dishonour" but he did not put in any of them the propensity for sin. Only the free will ability. And he also included in his creation, the solutions for sin, IN CASE they are needed. THAT was predicated upon the proposition that some men would probably sin, not because God created them TO sin.
Let me address the end of your post here first, as it shows the root of your error. First of all you suggest God makes pots, and then some evil men use the "pots" for evil uses, uses they were not intended for. But Theo, WE are the POTS, and God is using US for His purposes, some which are for honor and some for dishonor. God designed it all.
But God did not say "Look at how I make pots" he said "go to the potter and look..." And I see the potter making pots for use as pots of verious need.
The potter did not design good nor ill into the pots. Yet when some of the pots were marred, he did not destroy them, he reused the material. I begin to see USal in this, but want to see what You think.
Quote
Secondly, you say "God did not put in the propensity for sin, only the free will ability"... Come now Theo, if, according to you, we sin because we have free will, then God DID PUT IN the propensity for sin, by the very act of granting us the so-called free will!
Not at all. Wehn I allowed my teenaged children to go to school functions with their school friends, I did not design evil intent into them. NOR did I refust to allow them to go because of a potential that they might have evil intent. I trusted the strength of their training to help them over those moments of temptation. As God does for us. He has given us a moral compass, a moral standard, and a moral example to follow. If we still do evil, it is because we choose to override the compass, and the standard, and ignore the example. We instead, allow our temptations to lead us.
QuoteThirdly, and here is the real problem, you say God designed a solution for sin "IN CASE" it was needed!?!?! This was done because some men would "probably" sin!?!?!?!?
"IN CASE"? "PROBABLY"?
Now I must ask if you are being serious? Are you saying that God did something just "in case"? Because something "probably" might happen?!? If you are saying that (and it sounds like you are because that is what you wrote), then you are also admitting that you think God is NOT all-knowing and DOES NOT have perfect foreknowledge.
You are saying God didn't know if we would sin or not so He had Jesus ready just "in case" because He thought we would "probably" sin. Essentially God had a "backup plan", a plan B, and His original plan was not perfect and actually went astray. In effect, you are saying God is not really responsible for anything, because HE DIDN'T KNOW IT WOULD HAPPEN! This is absurd & ridiculous.
Sorry you feel that way. What would have happened if Eve sinned, and Adam did not? I do not know, but I believe God had a solution for that eventuallity. And for every other possibility that could happen. He did not design us TO sin, He designed us to be inventive, and responsible, and imitate him. some of us actually accomplish that at some point in our life, and rejoice. Some never do.
QuoteIsaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
God has already declared everything that will happen - the end from the beginning, including the things that are not yet done. He not only knows the future, He declares what it will be. God's counsel shall be done and He will do his pleasure, which includes His desire and will to save all men (1 Tim 2:4).
THOSE are the premises that are making me rethink my position. If it is compatible with everything else, I must adopt it as my conscience must be solvent in this matter.
QuoteIf you continue to believe this nonsense that God didn't know if we would sin or not, then you will not be able to understand and appreciate the truth of UR, nor will you understand God's power in the matter at hand.
Please I hope you really consider your belief here, and how it makes God appear, and how it contrasts with what scripture actually says, being that God IS all-knowing, and IS in control, and WORKS all things according to HIS will.
God has no need for a plan B my friend.
I will continue more in the next post as this is getting too long...
It still contrasts with "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve jehovah." If God was just teasing them, I begin to have a desparate problem. If he meant it, then YOU begin to have a desperate problem.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AM
It still contrasts with "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve jehovah." If God was just teasing them, I begin to have a desparate problem. If he meant it, then YOU begin to have a desperate problem.
I've thought about that scripture too. What if it has other possibiliites, such as "yes, we make choices - within the parameters God sets" - i.e., "we plan our way but God directs our steps?" Some things just aren't as black and white as we've often made them. Such as destruction, or judgment. We often add "complete" to destruction [or "that means going to hell"], or "eternal/without remedy" to judgment - when digging deeper and clearer revelation reveals some other aspects. Thinkin' here... :scratchhead: :bigGrin:
Quote from: legoman on March 23, 2010, 12:51:26 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 12:13:22 AM
The problem that remains for me to deal with, is, all the passages in the new covenant that seem to be saying something about eternal punishment, and some say they are all mistranslations. I have been sstudying that issue (mistranslations) for many years, and agree, it happens. But when it come to eternal salvation, I cannot depend upon a "maybe" response. Does that make sense?
If I did not desperately
WANT to accept what you guys are saying, I would not spend so much time on this board, I would just settle for what I already think I know. But Instead, I believe there are many issues raised in Christianinty that are contrived, and eternal damnation may well be one of them. But so can USAL. I am not being "turned by every wind of doctrine" here, I am simply trying to get clear answers, without offense to ANYONE, and be given whatever time it takes to assimilate it into my understanding.
I do thank you for your input.
From some of the responses my posts are getting, it might be better to just move on, yet I hesitate because I really do want to know. I just do not want to sit quietly by and allow someone to destroy my character with opinions that are expressed that have nothing to do with reality.
What to do...
Hi Theo, I appreciate your post here, it seems you are genuinely seeking and trying to understand what it is we believe.
Perhaps it would be helpful to start a new thread about "eternal/aionios", specifically Matt 25:46 which seems to be one of the main problem verses for you? You've brought it up several times, and people have given you some responses, but you remain unconvinced... it would be good to explore that. I can start a thread later on it if I have a moment (and if you haven't already).
Also, have you considered just sitting down and reading a really good intro to UR? Have you read the book called "Hope beyond Hell"? It is available in PDF format on the main page, right here:
http://tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
It might be helpful to read through it to get the basics down.
Hello legoman. I just posted my new temporary thread. Read it or delete is as you think best. I will not take issue about it, l as that requires ego issues I do not have; contrary to the opinions of some.
Allow me to tell you how I was introduced to USAL in the first pklace. I had a board, on which I allowed anything to be discussed, and Gary Amirault presented uSAL, whcih we debated. He presented the article by (corrected to) Whittemore, and I responded with rebuttals to every point Thayer (corrected to Whittemore) made. Instead of responding, Amirault took issue with point number four, and accused me of adding words, which to this day remain in Thayer's (corrected to Whittemore's) article. EvenGary could see that the statement was not scriptural. We departed company because I said some very nasty things on my board about his behaviour. THAT was eleven years ago.
Last week I contacted Gary to see if he wanted to discuss the issues again, assuming we had both matured beyond our prior state of disagreemen. He responded with a copy of my previous eleven year old response, and I asked him why he was bearing grudges for so long a time. He denied that was the case. So I came onto the board, thinking he was here. I have not seen his response yet, so maybe I misunderstood.
Anyway,. that was my introduction to USAL.
And my new thread needs evaluation by a moderator.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 12:13:22 AMThanks Bob.
The problem that remains for me to deal with, is, all the passages in the new covenant that seem to be saying something about eternal punishment, and some say they are all mistranslations. I have been sstudying that issue (mistranslations) for many years, and agree, it happens. But when it come to eternal salvation, I cannot depend upon a "maybe" response. Does that make sense?
Yes... I understand, because each one of us has had to deal with the same issue and deal with those lingering doubts. We will probably never get a definitive answer about the word
aionion because there are now and always will be "scholars" on both sides that disagree. The hard fact though is that olam and aionion are applied to temporary things in scripture. Therefore those words cannot intrinsically impart everlastingness to the noun they modify the way our word "everlasting" does, which could never be applied to something temporary, except by hyperbole (e.g. we've been waiting in line forever). The explanation "beyond the horizon" as given by the Hebrew scholars, is it least consistent with all of scripture, while the definition given in strongs "1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting" is simply not consistent with many examples in the LXX.
QuoteIf I did not desperately WANT to accept what you guys are saying, I would not spend so much time on this board, I would just settle for what I already think I know. But Instead, I believe there are many issues raised in Christianinty that are contrived, and eternal damnation may well be one of them. But so can USAL. I am not being "turned by every wind of doctrine" here, I am simply trying to get clear answers, without offense to ANYONE, and be given whatever time it takes to assimilate it into my understanding.
I would suggest that you just continue to study it and pray about it and take your time. You can't believe something just because you want too or that's not a good idea at least.
QuoteFrom some of the responses my posts are getting, it might be better to just move on, yet I hesitate because I really do want to know. I just do not want to sit quietly by and aloloow someone to destroy my character with opinions that are expressed that have nothing to do with reality.
What to do...
I wouldn't let that keep you from continuing to discuss here. We have the same issues amongst ourselvees at times. As far as character goes, my view is that a person's character is ultimately revealed by and judged according to his own words, not by the words of anyone else.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:59:22 AM
Allow me to tell you how I was introduced to USAL in the first pklace. I had a board, on which I allowed anything to be discussed, and Gary Amirault presented uSAL, whcih we debated. He presented the article by Thayer, and I responded with rebuttals to every point Thayer made. Instead of responding, Amirault took issue with point number four, and accused me of adding words, which to this day remain in Thayer's article. EvenGary could see that the statement was not scriptural. We departed company because I said some very nasty things on my board about his behaviour. THAT was eleven years ago.
Last week I contacted Gary to see if he wanted to discuss the issues again, assuming we had both matured beyond our prior state of disagreemen. He responded with a copy of my previous eleven year old response, and I asked him why he was bearing grudges for so long a time. He denied that was the case. So I cam on the board, thinking he was here. I have not seen his response yet, so maybe I misunderstood.
Anyway,. that was my introduction to USAL.
And my new thread needs evaluation by a moderator.
Very interesting.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 23, 2010, 12:29:23 AM
I never threw a thing.
But you had a free lunch. That's good too :laughing7:
Quote from: legoman on March 22, 2010, 03:26:49 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:50:28 AM
(Theo)Quote
I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;
... questions 1-6 ...
(legoman) Yes these were all God's will.
Are you serious? Perhaps you read a different translation than I. You really think it was God's will that men sin? Please show me THAT scripture.
If it was not God's will that men sin, then man's will is more powerful than God's.
You ask for the scripture, it has already been given to you, but here they are again:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creature (creation) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
What is sin but disobedience of God's commands? Yet God binds all men to disobedience. Pride (vanity) is sin. Yet God has subjected all creation (men) to vanity.
Now if sin is simply a product of "free will", why is it that no man in all of history (except one - Christ), has ever used their free will to NOT SIN? Why are all men sinners? No one can choose to NOT be a sinner. If it was not, as you say, God's intention that we sin, and ALSO no one can choose to NOT be a sinner, then who is responsible for us being sinners? Adam? Satan? Are Adam & Satan's will more powerful than God's will?
Quote
You have now contradicted what you said earlier; "Yes, these were all God's will." Now you say "God does not will something to happen that will frustrate his will." Which is it?
There is no contradiction here. Read what I'm saying carefully. God does not will something that frustrates his own will. If He did, that would be contradictory in itself. We are disobedient (remember disobedience is sin) BECAUSE GOD WILLED IT TO BE SO, and bound us over to disobedience.
For right now, that is God's will for the human race. He has subjected the whole creation to VANITY, and bound us to DISOBEDIENCE. God's will is not being frustrated at all because that is what He wants RIGHT NOW. Later on God will DELIVER the creation from this BONDAGE and have MERCY on us all. That is God's will for the creation which will happen to completion sometime in the future, and that will not be frustrated either.
God's will is NOT frustrated.
Quote
Not sure! Brain freeze! I think you got it backwards. We are ALREADY made in the image of God. Adam was made sinless. If your assessment is correct GOD got it backwards. I do not believe that for one moment.
No my friend, you and most of church tradition have it backwards. We are not fully made in the image of God yet. If you look at Gen 1:27 in the original languages, you will see the tense is "is being created" as opposed to "was created" as in:
Gen 1:27 So God [epoieesen] created man in his own image, in the image of God [epoieesen] created he him; male and female created he them. ["epoieesen" is aorist active] "is being created" is present active.
Man is being created in the image of God. RIGHT NOW. And in the future... until God has completed making man in His image.
But according to you and mainstream tradition, man who was in the perfect exact final image of God,
SINNED! How ridiculous is that? Think about it. If man is in the perfect express image of God, how can man sin since God does not sin?[/quote]
Are you familiar with Enoch, seventh from Adam? He "pleased God and was not, for God took him, for he pleased God." Enoch was translated, never having died, for the wages of sin is death. It was not ordained that man would sin.
Gen 5:22 "And Enoch walked with God..." (This reminds me of Adam in the beginning)
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Enoch not only pleased God when he walked with God, he was also a prophet of God:
Jude 1:14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"
It is beginning to seem as though you are correct, however, except for scenes like this one. How is it Enoch never obeyed God and sinned, when scripture says he obeyed God by NOT sinning; and "God is no respecter of persons." Seems confusing to me.
Quote
You show a God who not only creates man TO sin, but even as he creates them TO sin, he tells them to NOT sin. THAT is insanity. God is not insane.
No, believing God doesn't know that man would sin or not is insane. Believing God purposes or allows people to be tormented for ever is insane. You are right that God is not insane though.
Scripture shows that God binds all men to disobedience and subjects us to vanity. God then explains what sin is through His commandments and laws, and shows us how sin is overcome through Jesus and through the commandments of Love. Of course we fail to live up to these laws, GOD KNEW and INTENDED THIS WOULD HAPPEN. We thus experience the utter depths and futility of failure, sin, and evil. This is IMPORTANT for our spiritual growth and understanding. This allows us to learn what NON-LOVE is, so we can eventually fully appreciate and understand what LOVE is. Ultimately we WILL (future tense) be made into the exact express image of God, which
is LOVE.
Quote
How can you conclude that for God to give men free will is a mistake? God has free will and we are made in his image. I begin to comprehend how it is Universal Salvation becomes a welcome doctrine among men. It eliminates the guilt of sin by putting the blame all on God for making us sinners to begin with.
I didn't say that. I said
if God intended and purposed us NOT to sin, yet here we are sinning, then God made a mistake - a miscalculation, a mis-step; He had to change his plan IN CASE we sinned as YOU suggest. Now since YOU do believe God did NOT intend us to sin, and you stated He needed a backup plan IN CASE we sinned, you yourself have then admitted that God did indeed make the mistake, because his original plan was FOILED by the very "free will" man was given.
Quote
(legoman)QuoteTo do that we have to experience evil. From the CLV:
Eccl 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it
God is giving us an experience of evil. Think about the ramifications of that.
Actually, the quote says - 12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith. 14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
"This sore travail" is a reference to his "seeking and searching out by wisdom all things that are done under heaven." "Seeking and searching" are not sin.
"This sore travail" is actually translated from the hebrew word "Ra" which means "EVIL", the same word in the "tree of knowledge of good and evil (Ra)".
The version I quoted was the Concordant Literal Version, which translates word for word:
Eccl 1:13 "It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to
humble them by it" (Concorant Old Testament).
God created evil (Isaiah 45:7) so that we would experience it (Eccl 1:13) so that we would be HUMBLED and LEARN.
(theo)
Quote22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a God of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?
(legoman) "why do you correct me" you say. Why not? Because God has given me a heart to search out the truth and preach the gospel, that's why! Remember God's will does not frustrate His own will. God sets us up in disobedience, puts us through suffering, so He can have mercy on us later, show His glory, and perfect us as sons.
Nope! If all those things in which men sinned was God's will, and I teach truth about it, how then is it I am to be corrected? Am I not already correct, by your understanding of what constitutes God's will? You could NOT correct me, for it was already God's will for me to say those things, and you cannot thwart God's will, according to your comprehension of how things are. [/quote]
Then perhaps God's will for you RIGHT NOW is to oppose the teachings of UR on this tentmaker website, while God's will for me is to defend the teachings of UR here on this same website. This cannot and will not change until God changes one of our hearts and opens our eyes. In effect God's will is for us to FRUSTRATE each other! Yet God's will is not frustrated in this, because that is what He intended!
Perhaps we should pray that God will bring our two wills into agreement? God - who is the savior of all men, and who will have all men to be saved - how should He finally resolve our apparent conflict, which He has intended to happen, so that we would both LEARN? God will eventually bring us all to our knees, and we will all bow in agreement JOYFULLY PRAISING that He is Lord and Savior of all! Scripture declares it.
Quote
Again, you missed the condition in which Adam was placed in the garden. He was not created in sin, a sinner. He was created innocent UNTIL he sinned. THAT constituted the first "change of heart" resulting in rebellion against God. YOU HAVE EVERYTHING BACKWARDS.
Adam was a SINNER from the beginning, just like the rest of us. Adam did not have a choice to NOT be a sinner, for He was always intended to eat of the forbidden fruit. God was not rolling dice and waiting to see if Adam was a sinner or not, while holding Jesus in reserve "IN CASE" Adam "probably" would sin!
God KNEW how it would all go down, God INTENDED it, because God had already prepared the lamb of God BEFORE any human was ever created. God has bound all men to disobedience (this includes Adam). And He will have mercy on all men. [/quote]
I see a certain pattern of sense in your presentation, which I will have to contemploate on for a bit. I have to evaluate what I know with what you have presented, and see if it meshes in truth. I will probably look over some more posts in the meantime, though I may not respond for a while, as I think on these things.
Patience?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:52:35 PM
Gen 1:27 So God [epoieesen] created man in his own image, in the image of God [epoieesen] created he him; male and female created he them. ["epoieesen" is aorist active] "is being created" is present active.
Man is being created in the image of God. RIGHT NOW. And in the future... until God has completed making man in His image.
But according to you and mainstream tradition, man who was in the perfect exact final image of God, SINNED! How ridiculous is that? Think about it. If man is in the perfect express image of God, how can man sin since God does not sin?
[/quote]
First of all according to Jewish scholars it's not image but schadow or inside a outline (of Jesus)
What verse states it was equally perfect as Father and more important the same as Father?
What is perfect? I posted a message on that 2 weeks ago. Not sure it was in this thread. Perfect can't be understood without the context. If a surgeon would have saved the lives of all 10,000 patients he had during his career he would have a perfect track record. If a army general wipes out 10,000 enemy troops in a few hours he did a perfect job.
10,000 saved = perfect. 10,000 killed = perfect. Whoops :winkgrin:
QuoteAre you familiar with Enoch, seventh from Adam? He "pleased God and was not, for God took him, for he pleased God." Enoch was translated, never having died,
I'm gonna dig up something when I'm at home.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:52:35 PM
Gen 1:27 So God [epoieesen] created man in his own image, in the image of God [epoieesen] created he him; male and female created he them. ["epoieesen" is aorist active] "is being created" is present active.
Quote
Man is being created in the image of God. RIGHT NOW. And in the future... until God has completed making man in His image.
But according to you and mainstream tradition, man who was in the perfect exact final image of God, SINNED! How ridiculous is that? Think about it. If man is in the perfect express image of God, how can man sin since God does not sin?
Are you familiar with Enoch, seventh from Adam? He "pleased God and was not, for God took him, for he pleased God." Enoch was translated, never having died, for the wages of sin is death. It was not ordained that man would sin.
Gen 5:22 "And Enoch walked with God..." (This reminds me of Adam in the beginning)
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Enoch not only pleased God when he walked with God, he was also a prophet of God:
Jude 1:14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"
It is beginning to seem as though you are correct, however, except for scenes like this one. How is it Enoch never obeyed God and sinned, when scripture says he obeyed God by NOT sinning; and "God is no respecter of persons." Seems confusing to me.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here with Enoch.
Regarding Gen 1:27, here is the Concordant Literal version:
"And saying is the Alueim, Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness... And
creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He
creates it. Male and female He
creates them"
Notice it is "creating", "creates", etc. This indicates to me an ongoing process.
But if you still believe man was really in the perfect image of God, then you must admit that man would not have sinned, because God does not sin. Since man did sin, we know he could not have been in the
perfect image of God. ie. Man
was not completed in God's image yet.
Quote
I see a certain pattern of sense in your presentation, which I will have to contemploate on for a bit. I have to evaluate what I know with what you have presented, and see if it meshes in truth. I will probably look over some more posts in the meantime, though I may not respond for a while, as I think on these things.
Patience?
No problem. Patience is one of the fruits of the spirit :Sparkletooth: so perhaps that is what God is trying to teach us all here...
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2010, 09:01:53 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 03:01:25 PMIf the arguments posted all over the website about "aiwnion" NOT meaning eternal, but "age" are any indication of what this site is about, then I am correct, not simply "overloaded" and "already thinking you are wrong" as you indicate.
In Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," both "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same form of the same word, "aiwnion" and therfore cannot be used to mean two radically different and opposing timeframes.
Theo you wrote you spend 50 years studying Trinty. You also have a forum that is focusing on Trintity. Why study so long on a subject that can be explained in 10 verses?
It's a bit the same with aion. The word is simple. But when you start applying it may seem to contradict. Or state Father is not eternal. And to clear up those questions much more verses/study is needed. I assume that's not unlike a solid Trinity study.
Let me give you a thought to consider....
wwMat 25:46 "And these shall goto jail for 100 years: but the righteous shall party for a 100 years,"
Nope that verse is not from a special UR Bible :laughing7: Just me changing some words to clarify.
What does that verse tells us?
1. The wicked will spend 100 years in jail.
2. The rightous will have 100 years of parting.
What does it not say?
1. What happens after those 100 years to both groups.
2. Many, many, many other things.
That's just one thought.
There are many post on the subject. But a new thread on teh subject recently got started here (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7922.msg92533#msg92533)
I am already suffering from too much input, which I cannot rest until I have considered it all, and I see where my previous understanding was due to a lack of some of this information, and YOU do THIS to me?
Thanks! I will consider it.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 23, 2010, 12:32:05 AM
And for the record, Theo, perhaps you do but — I DO NOT SERVE A MORTAL GOD.
I do not serve a mortal God either, BServant. And I apologize from the depth of my soul for offending you when I intended no offense.
Just because I have different beliefs for a season, than you do, does not mean I belittle your beliefs, rather I am almost desparate to understand what it is you believe, because your belief seems to give you peace, while mine keeps me seeking for answers.
You can continue to fight me and make me feel bad, or join with me in MY search for truth. I really do not want to fight you, nor do I intentionally insult you or your beliefs. Again, I do, with full humility, apologize for any and all offense I have given to all on this board. It is not my intent.
Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2010, 01:29:05 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AM
It still contrasts with "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve jehovah." If God was just teasing them, I begin to have a desparate problem. If he meant it, then YOU begin to have a desperate problem.
I've thought about that scripture too. What if it has other possibiliites, such as "yes, we make choices - within the parameters God sets" - i.e., "we plan our way but God directs our steps?" Some things just aren't as black and white as we've often made them. Such as destruction, or judgment. We often add "complete" to destruction [or "that means going to hell"], or "eternal/without remedy" to judgment - when digging deeper and clearer revelation reveals some other aspects. Thinkin' here... :scratchhead: :bigGrin:
Good point!
I will share with you what is part of my problem, so you will at least understand why I seem stubborn to some on this board, and maybe rightly so.
I began life as a Catholic, and studied my way out of Catholicism at some slight cost to my ego. I then became a member of the Church of Christ, those pesky little "Only we have the truth" people. I was disfellowshipped from them over the issue of the equality of divinity and pre-existence of Jesus.
I now find that Gary Amirault's presentation of USAL is not all ther is to the issue, and it is almost overload to my mind. I will simply read this board,a nd not participate in any more posts if that becomes necessary, but read it I will, unless banned from so doing.
When I study an issue, I do so to great depth, and believe with finality, only until I find I am wrong. I cannot afford to be flung about "with every wind of doctrine," so I seem stubborn to some, but I think it is time I take a stand SOMEWHERE. As I have indicated elsewhere, I .like what I am hearing, but am slow to change again, as I have done so too many times already.
Please , understand, and be patient.
Quote from: legoman on March 23, 2010, 02:26:56 PM
Regarding Gen 1:27, here is the Concordant Literal version:
"And saying is the Alueim, Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness... And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them"
Notice it is "creating", "creates", etc. This indicates to me an ongoing process.
But if you still believe man was really in the perfect image of God, then you must admit that man would not have sinned, because God does not sin. Since man did sin, we know he could not have been in the perfect image of God. ie. Man was not completed in God's image yet.
One other thing to consider here. It may mean something, or it may not mean much. I think it means something. Look at this, I will give a synopsis of some verses in Gen 1:
Gen 1:3 Light Created
Gen 1:4 It was good
Gen 1:6-9 Water, land, sky separated
Gen 1:10 It was good
Gen 1:11 Plants appear
Gen 1:12 It was good
Gen 1:14-17 Lights (sun, moon, stars) created
Gen 1:18 It was good
Gen 1:20 Water creatures and birds created
Gen 1:21 It was good
Gen 1:24 Land creatures created
Gen 1:25 It was good
Gen 1:26 Man created "Let us make man in our image"
Hmm, it doesn't say "It was good" ... why not, was it not good yet?Gen 1:31 all that he made, was very good
Now, why does it not say "It was good" immediately after man was created in verse 26, just like every other day when something good was created?
But still it does say all that was made was very good at the end. But does "very good" = "perfect"? I don't think so. Unless you understand that "perfect" = "perfect for what they were designed for".
For example would you call a scorpion or a poisonous snake or a mosquito or a shark "perfect"? Yet these were also part of the whole creation that was "very good". A mosquito is only "perfect" at its job of annoying you and biting you in the summer. That is what a mosquito is "very good" for - annoying us humans and spreading disease!
I think the fact that it doesn't say "it was good" yet for man, means that
we aren't finished yet! Thus part of the reason why we sinned...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 02:35:06 PMI am almost desparate to understand what it is you believe, because your belief seems to give you peace, while mine keeps me seeking for answers.
I believe you Theo. I'm sure you are a honest searcher. That good. But I think you started your thread in a wrong way.
Something like: "I, Theo, send by God am here to break down UR."
I'm sure some grabbed for their blood pressure medication after reading that :laughing7:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2010, 09:01:53 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 03:01:25 PMIf the arguments posted all over the website about "aiwnion" NOT meaning eternal, but "age" are any indication of what this site is about, then I am correct, not simply "overloaded" and "already thinking you are wrong" as you indicate.
In Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," both "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same form of the same word, "aiwnion" and therfore cannot be used to mean two radically different and opposing timeframes.
Theo you wrote you spend 50 years studying Trinty. You also have a forum that is focusing on Trintity. Why study so long on a subject that can be explained in 10 verses?
It's a bit the same with aion. The word is simple. But when you start applying it may seem to contradict. Or state Father is not eternal. And to clear up those questions much more verses/study is needed. I assume that's not unlike a solid Trinity study.
Let me give you a thought to consider....
wwMat 25:46 "And these shall goto jail for 100 years: but the righteous shall party for a 100 years,"
Nope that verse is not from a special UR Bible :laughing7: Just me changing some words to clarify.
What does that verse tells us?
1. The wicked will spend 100 years in jail.
2. The rightous will have 100 years of parting.
What does it not say?
1. What happens after those 100 years to both groups.
2. Many, many, many other things.
That's just one thought.
There are many post on the subject. But a new thread on teh subject recently got started here (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7922.msg92533#msg92533)
I am already suffering from too much input, which I cannot rest until I have considered it all, and I see where my previous understanding was due to a lack of some of this information, and YOU do THIS to me?
Thanks! I will consider it.
That the difficult thing Theo. You can't know everything instantly. At least I can't.
Reading a verse and then draw a conclusion about UR is just like saying "Theo believes in 3 gods because TRI(nity) means 3. That's equally stupid.
Another suggestion to consider. What if you say for 3 weeks just accept the answers given to you. Then you will cover lots more UR ground in a short while. Now you are digging in deep into a single concept. But that's impossible to do if you don't have at least some background info on the general line of thought of UR. And then after those 3 weeks puzzle the pieces together and then start digging real deep.
Just a thought. :2c:
Quote from: legoman on March 23, 2010, 02:45:17 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 23, 2010, 02:26:56 PM
Regarding Gen 1:27, here is the Concordant Literal version:
"And saying is the Alueim, Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness... And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them"
Notice it is "creating", "creates", etc. This indicates to me an ongoing process.
But if you still believe man was really in the perfect image of God, then you must admit that man would not have sinned, because God does not sin. Since man did sin, we know he could not have been in the perfect image of God. ie. Man was not completed in God's image yet.
One other thing to consider here. It may mean something, or it may not mean much. I think it means something. Look at this, I will give a synopsis of some verses in Gen 1:
Gen 1:3 Light Created
Gen 1:4 It was good
Gen 1:6-9 Water, land, sky separated
Gen 1:10 It was good
Gen 1:11 Plants appear
Gen 1:12 It was good
Gen 1:14-17 Lights (sun, moon, stars) created
Gen 1:18 It was good
Gen 1:20 Water creatures and birds created
Gen 1:21 It was good
Gen 1:24 Land creatures created
Gen 1:25 It was good
Gen 1:26 Man created "Let us make man in our image"
Hmm, it doesn't say "It was good" ... why not, was it not good yet?
Gen 1:31 all that he made, was very good
Now, why does it not say "It was good" immediately after man was created in verse 26, just like every other day when something good was created?
Possibly because if it was a comparison with all that went before, man was superlative (everything was good until man, after which VERY GOOD is the assessment); I really don't know, but I suspect it was something like that.
Quote
But still it does say all that was made was very good at the end. But does "very good" = "perfect"? I don't think so. Unless you understand that "perfect" = "perfect for what they were designed for".
From its designation in other scriptures I think "perfect" is a reference to maturity in choices, right selections, good decisions.
QuoteFor example would you call a scorpion or a poisonous snake or a mosquito or a shark "perfect"? Yet these were also part of the whole creation that was "very good". A mosquito is only "perfect" at its job of annoying you and biting you in the summer. That is what a mosquito is "very good" for - annoying us humans and spreading disease!
I am not sure those little peskies were so pesky until after the flood. Remember, animals were not man's enemies until after Noah left the ark, and animals were given into man's hands for food.
Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
QuoteI think the fact that it doesn't say "it was good" yet for man, means that we aren't finished yet! Thus part of the reason why we sinned...
Ir certainly must be considered, but it must also be remembered, he did not pronounce ANYTHING "Very Good" until he had created Man.
Perplexing, isn't it?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 02:44:19 PM
Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2010, 01:29:05 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AM
It still contrasts with "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve jehovah." If God was just teasing them, I begin to have a desparate problem. If he meant it, then YOU begin to have a desperate problem.
I've thought about that scripture too. What if it has other possibiliites, such as "yes, we make choices - within the parameters God sets" - i.e., "we plan our way but God directs our steps?"
Good point!
I will share with you what is part of my problem, so you will at least understand why I seem stubborn to some on this board, and maybe rightly so.
All are stubborn here. Noone gets converted in 2 posts. Is that bad? Nope I don't think so.
Jabcat,
Now you mentioned it I take the liberty to add my thought. Remove at will. Free will :laughing7:
It's possible if both are true. Consider one of those maze puzzles. You enter at A and must exit at the only possible exit point B.
Jesus is waiting at point B.
All other routes are dead ends.
We are born/created at entry point A. The funny thing is we can run around freely in that maze according to our own choices. But eventually we end at B. God designed the maze according to His will. He already knew the route we would take. So no suprises at all.
(just a weeee little bit wabbit :laughing7: - good post :thumbsup:)
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 02:44:19 PM
I began life as a Catholic, and studied my way out of Catholicism at some slight cost to my ego. I then became a member of the Church of Christ, those pesky little "Only we have the truth" people. I was disfellowshipped from them over the issue of the equality of divinity and pre-existence of Jesus.
I was raised southern baptist, the price I paid for never giving myself over to that denomination is that my mother to this day has doubts about my salvation and it has nothing to do with UR.
Quote
I now find that Gary Amirault's presentation of USAL is not all ther is to the issue, and it is almost overload to my mind. I will simply read this board,a nd not participate in any more posts if that becomes necessary, but read it I will, unless banned from so doing.
One mistake we can all make is trading one religious sect for another. I hangout at tentmaker alot for one reason and one reason only, I do not have to agree with Gary, follow him, or accept his teaching in order to be here and interact with everyone. There are other places that center on a certain theological stance where if you post you had better be in lock step with the teachings of the website owner or your beliefs can be anything but UR. This is not "every" other place, but I find this place for my online adventures very good in that nature.
QuoteWhen I study an issue, I do so to great depth, and believe with finality, only until I find I am wrong. I cannot afford to be flung about "with every wind of doctrine," so I seem stubborn to some, but I think it is time I take a stand SOMEWHERE. As I have indicated elsewhere, I .like what I am hearing, but am slow to change again, as I have done so too many times already.
Please , understand, and be patient.
We should be for the most part confident where we stand, I was confident when I would teach about eternal torment, I am confident now, there is a difference between confidence and stubborness. You can be confident and open to change. Stubborness is a label that other tend to use on me because I do not lay down at their opinions because they opened their glorious mouth. But in reality stubborness is an attribute that is an issue between the person and God when it comes to whether it is a strength or a weakness in an particular area.
Keep on keepin on as far as I am concerned because I do understand.
Quote from: bobf on March 23, 2010, 02:05:08 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 12:13:22 AMThanks Bob.
The problem that remains for me to deal with, is, all the passages in the new covenant that seem to be saying something about eternal punishment, and some say they are all mistranslations. I have been sstudying that issue (mistranslations) for many years, and agree, it happens. But when it come to eternal salvation, I cannot depend upon a "maybe" response. Does that make sense?
Yes... I understand, because each one of us has had to deal with the same issue and deal with those lingering doubts. We will probably never get a definitive answer about the word aionion because there are now and always will be "scholars" on both sides that disagree. The hard fact though is that olam and aionion are applied to temporary things in scripture. Therefore those words cannot intrinsically impart everlastingness to the noun they modify the way our word "everlasting" does, which could never be applied to something temporary, except by hyperbole (e.g. we've been waiting in line forever).
I have known that for years, because of how it is used in Micah 5:2. it is just that I never considered in with reference to the new covenant. I am now struggling with THAT and not having an easy time. On top of that, I offend some, and feel badly about that. I may wello do better to just read and contemplate and quit asking questions and responding to what I perceive to be insults. It might be my own immaturity showing through.
The explanation "beyond the horizon" as given by the Hebrew scholars, is it least consistent with all of scripture, while the definition given in strongs "1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting" is simply not consistent with many examples in the LXX.
QuoteIf I did not desperately WANT to accept what you guys are saying, I would not spend so much time on this board, I would just settle for what I already think I know. But Instead, I believe there are many issues raised in Christianinty that are contrived, and eternal damnation may well be one of them. But so can USAL. I am not being "turned by every wind of doctrine" here, I am simply trying to get clear answers, without offense to ANYONE, and be given whatever time it takes to assimilate it into my understanding.
I would suggest that you just continue to study it and pray about it and take your time. You can't believe something just because you want too or that's not a good idea at least.
QuoteFrom some of the responses my posts are getting, it might be better to just move on, yet I hesitate because I really do want to know. I just do not want to sit quietly by and aloloow someone to destroy my character with opinions that are expressed that have nothing to do with reality.
What to do...
I wouldn't let that keep you from continuing to discuss here. We have the same issues amongst ourselvees at times. As far as character goes, my view is that a person's character is ultimately revealed by and judged according to his own words, not by the words of anyone else.
[/quote]
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 23, 2010, 02:48:53 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 02:35:06 PMI am almost desparate to understand what it is you believe, because your belief seems to give you peace, while mine keeps me seeking for answers.
I believe you Theo. I'm sure you are a honest searcher. That good. But I think you started your thread in a wrong way.
Something like: "I, Theo, send by God am here to break down UR."
I'm sure some grabbed for their blood pressure medication after reading that :laughing7:
That was actually a response to another thread title "Best arguments for Universal Salvation project" or something like that.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:52:35 PMAre you familiar with Enoch, seventh from Adam? He "pleased God and was not, for God took him, for he pleased God." Enoch was translated, never having died, for the wages of sin is death. It was not ordained that man would sin.
Gen 5:22 "And Enoch walked with God..." (This reminds me of Adam in the beginning)
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Enoch not only pleased God when he walked with God, he was also a prophet of God:
Jude 1:14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"
The Bible says that Enoch 'was not, for God took him' (Genesis 5:24), and that he was 'translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him' (Hebrews 11:5).
What actually happened to Enoch? Where did he go? Where is he now?
At this moment Enoch is dead and in his grave. We know this because it is clearly stated in Hebrews that Enoch died in faith, not having received the promises (Heb. 11:5, 13). And Genesis 5:23 plainly says that ALL THE DAYS of Enoch were 365 years.
On the other hand, God did deal with Enoch in a highly unique manner.
Enoch was one of those rare persons who realized the tremendous importance and profit in living God's way. From age 65 until his death, three hundred years later, Enoch "walked with God" (Genesis 5:22). And God is always particularly concerned for those who put His work first in their lives. He promises to protect them in times of severe trial:
But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.(Ps. 37:39-40).
We are not informed of the conditions that made it necessary for God to "translate" (transfer, transport) Enoch from where he had been, but it is clear that God did this to save his life (Heb. 11:5). Enoch was not taken to the heaven of God's Throne — he was removed by God to a safer location on the earth. Conditions were so bad that Enoch would have perished at the hands of men — had not God intervened.
A similar time of severe trial and test is soon coming on this entire world — but worse than any the world has heretofore known (Matt. 24:21). Enoch knew the way to Divine protection – it was obedience to God!
Q. Where is Enoch and Elijah? Did God whisk them to heaven or did they die like all other humans?
(Submitted by: J. C.)
A. Many Bible readers have been mystified by the "disappearance" of these personages. Some believe they are evidence that those who die righteously go to heaven. Of course this is a big misconception, so what did happen to Enoch and Elijah?
Let's begin with Enoch. There are only two Scriptural passages that mention him by name. The first one is found in the book of Genesis, chapter 5 and verse 24. Let's see how the various Bible translations render this verse (Genesis 5:24):
"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. " (New King James Version)
"Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here . . . " (New American Bible)
"And Enoch continued to please God and was not found, for God translated him" (Septuagint).
"lived close to God, and then disappeared . . . " (Moffet Translation)
Other translations render the verse "he disappeared for God took him".
Now lets take a look at the second scripture that mentions Enoch by name:
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had his testimony, that he pleased God. " (Hebrews 11:5)
The most significant aspect of these two Scriptures is the fact that neither of them say Enoch went to heaven.
The word rendered translated in the Greek, μετατίθημι, is Strong's Concordance #3346. It means to transfer, transport, exchange, change sides, carry over, change or remove.
We read in John 3:13 :
"And no man has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of man who is in heaven. "
Also Acts 2:34 :
"For David did not ascend into the heavens but he said himself: 'The Lord said to My Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies Your footstool.' "
Both Enoch and David were long dead when Jesus and Peter made those statements. This is positive proof that neither Enoch nor David were taken to heaven, at least the "heaven" where God resides.
What about Elijah? Let's look at 2 Kings 2:1, 11 :
"And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven " (2Kings 2:1, 11)
What few people realize is that the Bible discusses three types or kinds of heaven. Briefly, the first heaven is the atmosphere or sky that surrounds the earth, the second heaven is the physical universe that has stars, planets and so on, and the third type of heaven is where God's throne resides. For a fuller explanation of this topic please see our short article What are the three heavens?
Which heaven then is 2 Kings 2 verses 1 and 11, mentioned above, referring to?
The word translated heaven in 2Kings 1, 11 comes from the Hebrew word shamahym (שׁמה שׁמים, Strong's Concordance #8064). It is the plural form of the Hebrew word shameh which means to be lofty, the sky, the visible arch in which the clouds move. Its certainly not the heaven where God's throne is.
When Jesus (John 3:13) and Peter (Acts 2:34) state that no person has gone to heaven, the heaven they are referring to is the one containing God's throne. Therefore, when Hebrews 11:5 states that Enoch was "translated" or moved, it does not mean that he was somehow scooped up by God to live forever with him near his throne. It means that Enoch was moved or taken through the earth's atmosphere (sky), to a physical location on the earth the Bible does not name, so " . . . that he should not see death." This is the same thing that happened to Elijah.
God, in His wisdom, decided to physically transport Enoch and Elijah away from where they were originally located so that someone (or something) would not be able to physically kill them at a certain time. They continued to live the same kind of fleshly existence you or I do after they were moved until they died just like any other human on planet earth. This is in agreement with other scriptures that state all men (humans) must die a physical death:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: " (Hebrews 9:27, KJV)
"WHERE are ENOCH and ELIJAH?"
Enoch was translated that he should not see death. Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Yet the Bible reveals they are not in heaven today! WHERE ARE THEY? Here's the astounding truth.
Where Is Enoch?
ENOCH was "translated." Where did he go? Was he immediately taken to heaven? NO! Because Jesus Himself said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" (John 3:13). Here are Jesus' own words that no man, except Himself, had ascended into heaven!
And how did He know? Why, He came from there!
Then where is Enoch? Let's see what the Bible says.
Enoch Walked with God
At the age of 65 Enoch had a son named Methuselah. "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and he begat sons and daughters" (Genesis 5:22).
Here was a man that PLEASED God, a man that WALKED WITH GOD.
Enoch had to have faith, for in Hebrews 11:6 the Apostle said, "But without faith it is impossible to PLEASE Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." So Enoch walked with God. He obeyed God, and followed Him in His paths BY FAITH.
No one can walk with God unless he is in agreement with the will of God and doing it. Amos the prophet said: "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3.) So in his generation Enoch was the only recorded person who followed the ways of God—even though it possibly took him sixty-five years to learn to walk with God!
But how long did Enoch walk with God? The Scripture says that he "walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years." So Enoch followed God's ways for three hundred years. Notice that Moses did not record that Enoch is still walking with God. The Scripture says that Enoch WALKED with God for three hundred years and not one year more! Then Enoch is not still walking with God! Why?
Because "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty-five years" (Gen. 5:23). All the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Not just part of his days, but all his days! If Enoch did not die—if he was changed to immortality—and thus continued to walk with God, then his days would have been more than three hundred and sixty-five years. But the Bible plainly says that ALL his days were just that many, and no more!
This expression "all his days" is used in the same fifth chapter of Genesis about a dozen times and always it means that the person lived for that length of time ONLY "and he died." So Enoch lived NO MORE than three hundred and sixty-five years because "all his days were three hundred and sixty-five years." As he lived only for this length of time THEN HE MUST HAVE DIED!
But what about his translation? Does that mean he didn't die?
That's what most people carelessly assume without proof
What Really Happened at Enoch's Translation!
Remember, Moses didn't write that Enoch did not die. Rather Moses wrote that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he "was not found, because God had translated him" (Heb. 11:5).
Thus the Scripture records that Enoch was not found because God took him, or "translated" him. THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THAT ENOCH WENT TO HEAVEN when he was translated. Instead it says he was not found.
Certainly Enoch was "translated," but what does the word "translate" mean?
Strange as it may seem, nowhere in all the Bible does "translate" mean to make immortal!
The original Greek word for "translate" is metatithemi. According to Strong's Concordance it signifies: transfer, transport, exchange, change sides.
The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16. Here we read that after Jacob DIED his body was "carried over"—transported, TRANSLATED—to Sychem WHERE HE WAS BURIED! That's what your Bible says! Jacob was transported or TRANSLATED to the place of burial!
That is why Moses said that God TOOK Enoch. God removed—translated—him so that he was not found. God took Enoch and buried him!
In Deuteronomy 34:6 we read also how God took Moses from the people after which he died and was buried by God. "But no man knoweth his sepulcher unto this day." God removed Moses—God translated him—and he was not found either!
So Enoch was not made immortal after all! He was taken away and was not found. ALL his days were three hundred and sixty-five! That's as long as Enoch lived.
Notice another proof that "translate" does not mean to make immortal. It is found in Col. 1:13: the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath TRANSLATED us into the kingdom of His dear Son." Here the Bible says that Christians are already translated—but Christians still die! We are not immortal bodies, but mortal flesh and blood. Although we were once part of the darkness of this world, now we are TRANSLATED, removed from darkness into the light of the kingdom of God.
Didn't Receive the Promise
Enoch is included by Paul (in Hebrews 11) among the fathers who obtained a good report through faith; but "ALL these, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise" (Heb. 11:39). What promise? The "hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began (Titus 1:2).
So Enoch therefore is one of "ALL THESE" who have not yet obtained the promise of eternal life and inheritance. Enoch and all the worthies of old will receive the promise of eternal life at the return of Christ, the same time Christians obtain it (Heb. 11:40). That is yet future!
Since Enoch has not yet inherited eternal life he must be dead! This is exactly what Paul writes in Heb. 11:13! Paul says Enoch DIED! Notice it! "These ALL died in faith, not having received what was promised:' Who were these "ALL"?
Paul tells us: Abel, ENOCH, Noah, and the patriarchs and their wives. Hebrews 11:1-12 lists those who had faith and Enoch is included among them. Then in verse 13 Paul proved that they had not inherited the promises by saying: "These ALL [including Enoch] died in faith?'
But what about Paul's saying that Enoch "should not see death"?
Which Death Did Enoch Escape?
Enoch lived only three hundred sixty-five years. Then what could Paul possibly have meant by saying: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found because God had translated him?" This verse nowhere says that Enoch did not die. Rather, it says that Enoch "should not see death." But what does it mean?
Remember, there is more than one death mentioned in the Bible. There is a first death, and there is a second death (Rev. 20:6). Which death did Paul mean?
The first death is appointed unto men (Heb. 9:27). That death cannot be humanly evaded. It is inevitable. That death Enoch died, as we have already proved.
But Paul was not writing about that death. The phrase "should not see" is in the conditional tense of the verb, having reference to a future event. It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see" death—but that he "should not see death." So this death that Enoch escaped by being translated is one that he can escape in the future ON CERTAIN CONDITIONS!
Did Jesus ever speak of a death that might be escaped? He certainly did! In John 8:51 Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my sayings, he shall never see death"—shall never see— that is, suffer—the second death! And again in John 11:26, "Whoso liveth and believeth in me shall never die"—or "shall not die forever."
This death is one that can be escaped on condition that men keep the sayings of Jesus and believe Him. This death is not the first death, because Christians who keep Jesus' sayings die this first death. Then the death which Enoch should escape must be the second death which will NEVER TOUCH THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION (Rev. 20:6). And Enoch will be in the first resurrection because he met the conditions!
Enoch had faith. He believed God and walked with God, obeying Him. In keeping the sayings of God, Enoch kept the sayings of Jesus too; because Jesus did not speak of Himself, but spoke what the Father commanded Him (John 14:10).
Thus Enoch met the conditions so that he should not see death. The second death shall never touch Enoch, because of his faith and obedience.
Two Translations
Now we can understand Hebrews 11:5: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
This verse plainly mentions two translations.
Examining this verse fact by fact, we notice that Enoch had faith and was translated. This translation—removal, transference—was on condition of FAITH. NOW what translation mentioned in the Bible is on condition of faith? Why, the one we read about in Colossians 1:13. The Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son."
This is a FIGURATIVE translation—a FIGURATIVE removal or transference from the spiritual darkness of this world to the light of the family or kingdom of God and Christ. In verse 10 Paul shows that to abide in this kingdom we must "walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing." This is exactly what Enoch did. He walked with God, and pleased God.
Then Enoch, the same as Christians, was delivered from the power of sin and darkness in which he had been living for sixty-five years. He was removed (translated) from the ways of the world and lived three hundred years according to God's ways so that he might inherit eternal life at Christ's return, and should not suffer the second death.
By faith Enoch was separated—removed or translated—from the world, the same as Christians who are not to be a part of the world, although living in the world.
Not only was Enoch FIGURATIVELY taken from the society of his day, but he was also LITERALLY removed—translated—so that he was not found.
God took him physically away from the people, just as He later took Moses. And God buried each so well that neither has ever been found since! Enoch had completed this present normal life. "All his days were three hundred sixty-five years." This was the second translation—a literal removal at death.
God gave Enoch this sign of physical removal as a type for all those who should later follow Enoch's example of faith. He was taken physically from the people just as Christians are to be spiritually removed from the ways of the world. The physical translation or carrying away of Enoch was also a sign to him from God that his faith had been accepted.
Like every true saint, Enoch is awaiting the hope of the resurrection and the return of Christ (Jude 14, 15).
Did Elijah Go To Heaven?
You have been told that Elijah went to heaven. Yet over 900 years after Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind Jesus Himself said. "NO MAN ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man!" (John 3:13.)
Is this a Bible contradiction? Did Elijah really ascend to the heaven where God's throne is—even though Jesus said he didn't?
If Elijah is not in heaven today, then where did Elijah go?
Which Heaven?
There are three heavens mentioned in the Bible, not just one! And if, as Jesus said, no man, which included Elijah, had ever ascended to the heaven where He came from, then the heaven into which Elijah was taken was a different heaven!
Which one was it?
The third heaven is the heaven of God's throne, where Jesus is today. Jesus, being the High Priest of God, is the only one who has the right to be in that heaven with the Father.
Notice why! Hebrews 8:1-5 explains that the original earthly tabernacle under the Old Covenant, with its most holy place, or compartment, was the type of the throne of God in heaven. Only the high priest—type of Christ as High Priest now—was allowed to enter!
The second heaven represents the expanse of this great universe—the space where we find the sun, moon, stars, comets and planets. How often do we find the Psalmist admiring the "heavens, the work of Thy fingers, the moon, and the stars, which Thou has ordained" (Psalm 8:3; Genesis 1:15-17).
Beside the heaven of the stars, we find that the atmosphere, the air that surrounds this world, is also called heaven. Birds fly "in the midst of heaven"— certainly not God's throne in heaven—for we read in Genesis 1:20 of "fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven." In blessing Jacob, Isaac said; "God give thee of the dew of heaven:' and Moses joyed that the "heavens shall drop down dew" (see Gen. 27:28 and Deut. 33:28).
This first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Everyone of us is right now breathing the air of heaven!
Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God's throne, then to which heaven did he go?—for the Scripture reads: "and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (II Kings 2:1, 11).
The answer ought already be quite obvious! Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into heaven"—not to the heaven of God's throne, but into this earth's atmosphere, the first heaven.
There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth—in the first heaven, in which the birds fly. You certainly have seen the great lifting power of a whirlwind, haven't you?
Why Taken Up?
What was the reason for this unusual act of God? Why did He take Elijah up into the atmosphere? Was it to make him immortal? No! The Scripture says no word about that! The ancient prophets—including Elijah—did not receive any promise of immortality prior to or apart from us. Notice it in Hebrews 11:13 and 39: "These all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise!" And we shall not receive it until Christ returns (Heb. 11:40).
So Elijah was not to be made immortal—for that would give him pre-eminence above Jesus. But what does the Bible reveal as the reason for his removal? II Kings 2:3 and 5 has the answer.
Notice now what the sons of the prophets said to Elisha: "Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head today?" Or as the Smith and Goodspeed translation has it, "Do you know that today the Lord is about to take away your master from being your leader?" Christ is the head of the Church today as Elijah was the head or leader of the sons or disciples of the prophets in that day. God had sent Elijah as His prophet to wicked king Ahab and to his son Ahaziah. Now God wanted Elisha to direct His work, as Ahaziah the king had died (II Kings 1-18) and a new king was ruling.
So what did God do?
He could not allow Elijah to be among the people with Elisha directing the work now. That would have been the same as disqualifying him! God never takes an office from a man when that man has been performing his duty well, the only thing God could do would have been to remove Elijah so that another would fulfill the office.
This God did do. When he was taken up, Elijah's mantle dropped from him and Elisha picked it up. See II Kings 2:12-15.
And what did the "mantle" mean?
In Clarke's Commentary we note that it was "worn by prophets and priests as the simple insignia of their office." (Vol. 2, page 484.)
The purpose of God in removing Elijah was to replace him with another man who would occupy Elijah's office in Israel for another fifty years. This work had to start under a new king, for Ahaziah had just died. And Elijah was already aging. So as not to disqualify Elijah in the sight of the people, God took him away from the sons of the prophets and the people, allowing the mantle which signified the office of Elijah to drop into the hands of Elisha. Thus God preserved the name and office of His prophet.
How Taken Up?
Having crossed Jordan near Jericho, Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind in what appeared to be a chariot and horses of fire. The violent motion of the wind pulled the mantle off the prophet as he was seen to ascend into the sky. You probably remember reading the promise of Elijah that Elisha would have a double portion of the Spirit of God if he would be allowed by God to see Elijah taken up (II Kings 2:9). All this meant that Elisha was to be the leader, the new head of the sons of the prophets.
Having ascended into the air, Elijah was borne away out of the sight of the new leader—beyond the horizon. But—
Where Did Elijah Go?
This has been the perplexing problem to so many!
He did not ascend to the throne of God. Jesus said so! Yet he couldn't remain in the air forever.
And God did not say that Elijah was to die at that time. If he were, Elisha could have assumed his new office without the removal of Elijah, for we know that Elisha died in office after fulfilling his duty (II Kings 13:14).
The sons of the prophets who knew that their master was to be removed also that Elijah was not to die then. That is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have allowed him to drop "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (II Kings 2:16). Elisha knew that God would preserve Elijah from falling, but at their insistence he permitted men to go in search for him—to no avail.
Elijah was gone!
And where to? Certainly the whirlwind used by God could not take him beyond the earth's atmosphere. Neither does the Bible account leave Elijah in the air!
The Answer Unfolds
Let us notice the next few years and see what further events the Scripture records. The new king of Israel was another son of Ahab, Jehoram, or Joram as he is sometimes called. The beginning of his reign marked the year of the removal of Elijah (II Kings 1:18 and 3:1). During this king's reign Elisha was the recognized prophet of God (II Kings 3:11). In the fifth year of Joram king of Israel, the son of the king of Judah began to reign along with his father in Judah (II Kings 8:16). His name also was Jehoram. The first thing he did to establish his kingdom rule was to put his relatives to the sword lest they should claim the throne from him (11 Chronicles 2 1:4). For nearly six years he followed the ways of the nations about him and did evil in God's sight.
Almost ten years had now expired since Elijah was taken from the people. But what do you think was about to happen?
--- continued
A Letter Comes from Elijah!
Yes, after this wicked rule by the Jewish king, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king!
The contents of the letter are found in II Chronicles 21:12-15. In part it reads: "Because thou hast not walked in the ways of. . . thy father . - . but hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel.. . and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself. . . thou shalt have great sickness by disease."
From the wording of the letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the disease as future. Two years after the king became diseased the king died—having reigned only eight short years (II Chronicles 21:18-20).
This proves that the letter was written about ten years after Elijah had been taken to another location by the whirlwind.
God used Elijah to convey the message because he was the prophet of God in days of the present king's father—and the son was not going in the ways of his obedient father, Jehosophat.
The letter he had others deliver was recognized as his—proving that he was known to be alive someplace. Just how much longer he lived, the Bible does not reveal. But in that "it is appointed unto men once to die"—Elijah must have died somewhat later. See Hebrews 9:27. All human beings born of Adam, and that includes Elijah, must die—for we read: "In Adam ALL DIE" (I Corinthians 15:22). Elijah was a man "subject to like passions as we are" (James 5:17)...subject to human nature and death! The prophet, being mortal flesh as we are, could not have lived much beyond his seventy years.
To suppose that God gave him the power of an endless life of nearly three thousand years already is to read into the Bible what is not there! He was mortal, subject to death, and after being lifted into the atmospheric heavens, spent the remaining years of his separate life at some little-known location on the earth, living as every human being, before he naturally died.
Was Elijah on the Mount?
The only remaining texts that puzzle people are those relative to the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus. The record of the event is found in Matthew 17:1-9; Mark 9:2-10; Luke 9:28-36.
Leaving the mountain, Jesus told his disciples: "Tell the vision to no man (Mat. 17:9)." A vision is not a material reality but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes.
Moses died, and was buried (Deut. 34:5-6). Both he and Elijah were still dead in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in the glory of the resurrection—an event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained (Heb. 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming kingdom.
How plain the Bible is! Elijah is dead in the dust of the earth awaiting the resurrection of the just. Elijah, some years after being removed in the whirlwind, went to the grave, but will rise again to live forevermore!
Let us make make man in our image....
and then He says..
..I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY UNTO ANOTHER[a mere image]
now Jesus, though a son of God, when He found himself in
the fashion of a man...humbled himself as a servant
Now we know that a servant does not remain in the household
forever, but a son does.
we also know...that He shows mercy unto a son that has
served him....and while young you can not tell a servant from a son.
also,it is written, in the place were it was said, 'not my son, it
will be said 'you are the sons of the living God."
So, the sons of God were subjected to vanity..when they took
on the body[flesh] to serve the Father's purpose. Which was to
educate His children that they should have an exercize in good
and evil. This exercize provides an education like you wouldn't
beleive. It also adds the fruit of mercy and humility and
compassion...to the spirit of Love..for He demands ALL the fruit
This perfection comes from obediance through suffering..
evil is the tool that works the 'suffering' aspect. Evil is
NOT OF GOD...He made a tool to serve as a negative in this
educating expierence.It is NOT of Him...and He does not give
His Glory unto another. It serves Him in this function.
Compassion would not be developed in His children, if they
had never expierenced this evil, nor mercy...which is a distinct
quality of Love, of which HE IS.
He sent His children down and placed them in a clay vessel
that is corruptible..in that both positive and negative forces
can manifest and influence this flesh/vessel. Thus
the 'nakedness' of Adam and Eve that was so very very
interesting to the adversarial negative evil tool[ as God's
children we will be clothed in the incorruptible garment..and this
evil tool can not and does not have an affect on that vessel
Thus He set the stage for the exercize to take place.
When Satan, adversarial spirit/negative tool was in heaven
he dwelt in an uncorruptible garment. The evil substance in him
could not express itself in the vessels of the angels or himself.
Thus seeing Adam and Eve's 'nakedness' was very alluring to
him, to manifest outwardly the impelling nature of his
substance. Jesus told us this in the parable of the feild sowed
with the good seed by the Father, and an enemy came in at
night and sowed tares. The feild is our clay vessel/flesh, the
seed is the seed of His children,due to bear fruit unto heaven,
the tares are the evil substance fruit that is due to be
destroyed at harvest.
All the children of God have served Father's purpose in this
exercize, whether He used their flesh for honorable or
dishonarable examples, in this good evil exercize.
There was a time when the evil tares had so increased in the
earth that man's thoughts were only evil all the time...He
cleared the feild,so to say, for a better balance of good evil
for His teaching purposes. He just about repented of the set up
at that time[placing us in corruptible vessels as man] So
decided He would NEVER AGAIN LET IT GET SO BAD OUT OF
BALANCE[thus the rainbow covenant] Also note that all
who perished in the flood were raised to heaven and delivered
from the great evil that was running rampant on earth at that
time.
Now, the mystery of godliness and godlessness and the man
of sin is being revealed at this end time.
godliness is but of the spiritual DNA of God and it is eternal
and immortal. Godlessness is the temporal substance of the
negative/adversarial teaching tool. The man of sin or son of
perdition...is man's fleshly body inhabited by the adversarial
negative teaching substance[ thus Judas picturing the son of
perdition when satan entered him]
Now, when satan and others were in heaven..they dwelt in
incorruptible vessels, and satan mistakenly thought he was a
son of God,also.But just had a different nature. That very nature
coveted Father's throne...but was unable[not strong enough]
to work it's evil on the incorruptible vessels. Only by leaving his proper dwelling place[incorruptible garment in heaven]
could he work that evil that was his nature.
He was called the dragon up there....the original serpent
when he entered the serpent in the garden to seduce Eve..
and the wild beast when he entered the vessels of the animals
[on account of this the animals became wild/ferocious/devouring
one another] Finally, he is known as the man of sin, or son of
perdition when he enters man's vessel or garment.
God's sons, His progency do not sin...it is the substance of the
negative contrast in their vessels[sin in flesh] that works sin
through deceiving the woman that adversary led her into
an act of disobediance that allowed him entry into her vessel
Sin is the flesh is condemend[eat of the tokogae] and bring
death to the vessel of man[flesh and blood does not inherit the
kingdom of heaven] However the promised seed does..it falls to
the earth and dies then it bears fruit unto heaven, seperated
from chaff[corruptible flesh and tares surrounding it[sin in flesh]
it is gathered into the barn of heaven
Now, just as all men have bore the image of the corruptible
[as servants that do not remain in the household of God/ sons of perdition that did not keep their proper dwelling place/sons of disobediance]
so too, all men will bear the image of the incorruptible son from heaven,who fell to earth and died in order to bear fruit unto heaven[progency of GOD]
2 Thess 2;7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow, with the breath of His mouth, and destroy by the splendour of His coming
Jesus told us to judge nothing before the appointed time,
and that there is nothing hidden that would not be revealed.
[many have judged by appearance and rendered unrighteous judgement]
1Peter 1;3 Praise be to the God and Father of OUR LORD JESUS Christ! IN his great mercy he has GIVEN US NEW BIRTH into a living hope,through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish,spoil or fade- KEPT IN HEAVEN FOR YOU, who through faith are sheilded by God's power until THE COMING OF THE SALVATION THAT IS READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME
Roman 8;18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory THAT WILL BE REVEALED IN US.
The Creation Waits in Eager Expectation for the SONS OF GOD TO BE REVEALED
v 29 FOR THOSE GOD FORKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORMED TO THE LIKENESS OF HIS SON,THAT HE MIGHT BE THE FIRSTBORN OF MANY BROTHERS
Now, in all these things we are more than conquerors,
THROUGH HIM WHO LOVED US. For I AM CONVINCED THAT
NEITHER DEATH NOR LIFE,NEITHER ANGELS NOR DEMONS,
NEITHER THE PRESENT NOR THE FUTURE,NOR ANY POWERS
NEITHER HEIGHT NOR DEPTH,NOR ANYTHING ELSE
IN ALL CREATION....WILL BE ABLE TO SEPERATE US
FROM THE LOVE OF GOD THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD
Also it is written that it is the Glory of God to conceal a matter,
and the glory of kings to reveal a matter
Rev 21;24 The nations will walk by it's light, and the kings[kings and preists] of the earth will bring their splendour into it
....the glory and honour of the nations will be brought into it
Nothing impure[sin/adversary] will ever enter into it[incorruptible]
Wonderful Sheila, just wonderful, thank you.
HE IS WONDERFUL! :bgdance:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 22, 2010, 11:39:42 PM
Theo said this to what I took GREAT OFFENSE:
"I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God."
And THAT, Paul, was hardly respectful to me or our Lord Jesus Christ Savior of All Mankind.
The thing is, Theo, we should all search for the Truth and the Spirit will lead us to Himself, but why come here and contentiously argue with us about it?
The spirit you have brought is not righteousness, peace and joy.
This "searching" soul you now profess has
suddenly appeared and was not the one we first met.
The fact that you have had an eleven-year rift with Gary that you've shunted upon this fellowship also portents your true intention.
willieH: Hi Theo... :cloud9:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AM
What would have happened if Eve sinned, and Adam did not? I do not know, but I believe God had a solution for that eventuallity.
There was/is
NO "eventuality", Theo! :mshock: So what "solution" is needed for that which NEVER existed? :msealed:
"What if" (fictional) imaginations are NOT what occurs! Any such IMAGINATION is accomplishing nothing, but IS placing a useless and distracting stumbling block before that which actually DID occur!
Can't speak for anyone else, ...but I do not proceed in the dealings of life upon such fictional premises or thoughts... I deal with LIFE in its REALITY...
"What if" I didn't cut my finger (which I did), then I wouldn't need a BAND-AID (which I DO) :dontknow: The thought of "What if" concerning my cut is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the REALITY that the CUT exists... and the "What if" DOES NOT. Which makes the "what if" a waste of time concerning my cut, ...which
is REALITY. :dontknow:
GOD does not need to come up with "solutions" for scenarios that do not exist -- such as
"what if Eve sinned but Adam didn't"... He is not a problem solver...
He is the DESIGNER of ALL THINGS... Within each DESIGN which comes forth from Him, is found all the necessary parts of that which is DESIGNED.
Such as...
Question: "What if" there was no "UP"... Would God have to have come up with a "solution" so that "DOWN" could still exist? :dunno:
Answer:
NO! ...because "UP" ...
DOES exist. :nod: ...And this proposed, "what if" ...concerning the non-existence of "UP", Never has and NEVER WILL exist!
There is no need to IMAGINE what
could have occured because such "imagination" is BASED in Fictional (NON-EXISTENT) premises... which have NO BASIS in REALITY (which
IS EXISTENT)...
"what if"
the sky falls... Or "what if"
there was no water... Or "what if"
inside was outside... Or "what if"
there was a tooth fairy...
Well the facts are: the sky cannot fall, there IS water, inside IS not outside, and there IS no tooth fairy...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AMAnd for every other possibility that could happen. He did not design us TO sin
This contention is also, not based in the TRUTH... for the TRUTH notes that MAN
DID SIN, and that GOD
concluded ALL to enter into such...
Paul said
this:
Rom 14:23 ...whatsoever is NOT of FAITH, ...IS... SINAfter having said
this:
Rom 11:32 ...for GOD hath CONCLUDED them ALL in UNBELIEF [without FAITH], that He might have MERCY upon ALLQuote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AMHe designed us to be inventive, and responsible, and imitate him. some of us actually accomplish that at some point in our life, and rejoice. Some never do.
This is also misled thinking... for
CHRIST is the AUTHOR (generator) and FINISHER (accomplisher) of
our FAITH --
Heb 12:3"
WE" do not "accomplish" anything. Those who percieve that
THEY "accomplish", speak accordingly:
Matt 7:22 --
MANY will SAY to Me in that day: Lord, Lord, have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy Name DONE ...MANY wonderful WORKS?To which
CHRIST SAYS:
Matt 7:23 --
and then will I profess unto THEM -- I never knew YOU, depart from Me, ye that WORK INIQUITY.They have proclaimed to
CHRIST,
themselves as the DOERS (accomplishers) of wonderful
works, instead of laying those
works at the foot of He who actually
DID THEM, ...
IN them.
QuoteIsaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
God has already declared everything that will happen - the end from the beginning, including the things that are not yet done. He not only knows the future, He declares what it will be. God's counsel shall be done and He will do his pleasure, which includes His desire and will to save all men (1 Tim 2:4).
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AMTHOSE are the premises that are making me rethink my position. If it is compatible with everything else, I must adopt it as my conscience must be solvent in this matter.
Praise the Lord, Theo, ...I :HeartThrob: fully, commend you for these words... :handshake:
QuoteIf you continue to believe this nonsense that God didn't know if we would sin or not, then you will not be able to understand and appreciate the truth of UR, nor will you understand God's power in the matter at hand.
Please I hope you really consider your belief here, and how it makes God appear, and how it contrasts with what scripture actually says, being that God IS all-knowing, and IS in control, and WORKS all things according to HIS will.
God has no need for a plan B my friend.
I will continue more in the next post as this is getting too long...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AMIt still contrasts with "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve jehovah." If God was just teasing them, I begin to have a desparate problem. If he meant it, then YOU begin to have a desperate problem.
Not if you look at --
Eph 1:11 -- which
SAYS -- that
GOD WORKS ALL THINGS according the the counsel (advising) of HIS OWN WILL...
ALL things means...
ALL THINGS including ---> Sin (concluding us in Unbelief)/Repentence (delivering us from that which HE concluded)
Jer 29:14 --
and I will be found of you saith YHVH, and ...I... will turn away YOUR CAPTIVITY, ...and ...I... will gather YOU from ALL the NATIONS, and from ALL the PLACES [such as SIN] whither ...I... have driven YOU, saith YHVH, and ...I... will bring YOU ...again... into the place whence ...I... caused YOU to be CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE.It's right there in the
WORD, Theo... all YOU have to do is
BELIEVE what the WORD SAYS... :cloud9:
YHVH decides WHO shall "choose" to serve Him, and WHO shall not:
Rom 9:17 --
For the SCRIPTURE SAITH unto Pharaoh... Even for this SAME PURPOSE have ...I... raised THEE up, that ...I... might show MY POWER ...in THEE... and that My Name be DECLARED throughout the earth...Pharaoh DID (chose) as was ORDAINED by
YHVH... that he DO (choose)... and IN that process was
YHVH glorified by the "misdeeds" of Pharaoh, ...which stood HELPLESS before the POWER of the DELIVERANCE of
YHVH.
Rom 9:11 --
for the children being NOT YET BORN, neither having DONE, ...good OR evil, that the PURPOSE of GOD according to ELECTION might stand... NOT of WORKS, but of HIM that CALLETH......willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 23, 2010, 06:27:55 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 22, 2010, 11:39:42 PM
Theo said this to what I took GREAT OFFENSE:
"I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God."
And THAT, Paul, was hardly respectful to me or our Lord Jesus Christ Savior of All Mankind.
The thing is, Theo, we should all search for the Truth and the Spirit will lead us to Himself, but why come here and contentiously argue with us about it?
The spirit you have brought is not righteousness, peace and joy.
This "searching" soul you now profess has suddenly appeared and was not the one we first met.
The fact that you have had an eleven-year rift with Gary that you've shunted upon this fellowship also portents your true intention.
I'd suggest we see how it goes, David.
As long as the forum guidelines are followed, we should be OK. We can all go ahead and discuss, point out, disagree, etc., as long as it's respectful. We probably didn't get off to the best start, but maybe Theo
is reconsidering some things, as Paul and WW's recent interactions have suggested. Time tells :bigGrin:. We might yet be able to recover from "I'm here to break down UR", and then a collective "Oh no you're not, buddy!". :laughing7:
"Oh no you're not, buddy!".
That line should be put on the Tentmakers home page!
Classic and bravo, James!
:clapping:
Quote from: willieH on March 24, 2010, 12:11:24 AM
willieH: Hi Theo... :cloud9:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AM
What would have happened if Eve sinned, and Adam did not? I do not know, but I believe God had a solution for that eventuallity.
There was/is NO "eventuality", Theo! :mshock: So what "solution" is needed for that which NEVER existed? :msealed:
"What if" (fictional) imaginations are NOT what occurs! Any such IMAGINATION is accomplishing nothing, but IS placing a useless and distracting stumbling block before that which actually DID occur!
Can't speak for anyone else, ...but I do not proceed in the dealings of life upon such fictional premises or thoughts... I deal with LIFE in its REALITY...
"What if" I didn't cut my finger (which I did), then I wouldn't need a BAND-AID (which I DO) :dontknow: The thought of "What if" concerning my cut is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the REALITY that the CUT exists... and the "What if" DOES NOT. Which makes the "what if" a waste of time concerning my cut, ...which is REALITY. :dontknow:
GOD does not need to come up with "solutions" for scenarios that do not exist -- such as "what if Eve sinned but Adam didn't"... He is not a problem solver...
He is the DESIGNER of ALL THINGS... Within each DESIGN which comes forth from Him, is found all the necessary parts of that which is DESIGNED.
Such as...
Question: "What if" there was no "UP"... Would God have to have come up with a "solution" so that "DOWN" could still exist? :dunno:
Answer: NO! ...because "UP" ...DOES exist. :nod: ...And this proposed, "what if" ...concerning the non-existence of "UP", Never has and NEVER WILL exist!
There is no need to IMAGINE what could have occured because such "imagination" is BASED in Fictional (NON-EXISTENT) premises... which have NO BASIS in REALITY (which IS EXISTENT)...
"what if" the sky falls... Or "what if" there was no water... Or "what if" inside was outside... Or "what if" there was a tooth fairy...
Well the facts are: the sky cannot fall, there IS water, inside IS not outside, and there IS no tooth fairy...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AMAnd for every other possibility that could happen. He did not design us TO sin
This contention is also, not based in the TRUTH... for the TRUTH notes that MAN DID SIN, and that GOD concluded ALL to enter into such...
Paul said this:
Rom 14:23 ...whatsoever is NOT of FAITH, ...IS... SIN
After having said this:
Rom 11:32 ...for GOD hath CONCLUDED them ALL in UNBELIEF [without FAITH], that He might have MERCY upon ALL
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AMHe designed us to be inventive, and responsible, and imitate him. some of us actually accomplish that at some point in our life, and rejoice. Some never do.
This is also misled thinking... for CHRIST is the AUTHOR (generator) and FINISHER (accomplisher) of our FAITH -- Heb 12:3
"WE" do not "accomplish" anything. Those who percieve that THEY "accomplish", speak accordingly:
Matt 7:22 -- MANY will SAY to Me in that day: Lord, Lord, have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy Name DONE ...MANY wonderful WORKS?
To which CHRIST SAYS:
Matt 7:23 -- and then will I profess unto THEM -- I never knew YOU, depart from Me, ye that WORK INIQUITY.
They have proclaimed to CHRIST, themselves as the DOERS (accomplishers) of wonderful works, instead of laying those works at the foot of He who actually DID THEM, ...IN them.
QuoteIsaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
God has already declared everything that will happen - the end from the beginning, including the things that are not yet done. He not only knows the future, He declares what it will be. God's counsel shall be done and He will do his pleasure, which includes His desire and will to save all men (1 Tim 2:4).
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AMTHOSE are the premises that are making me rethink my position. If it is compatible with everything else, I must adopt it as my conscience must be solvent in this matter.
Praise the Lord, Theo, ...I :HeartThrob: fully, commend you for these words... :handshake:
QuoteIf you continue to believe this nonsense that God didn't know if we would sin or not, then you will not be able to understand and appreciate the truth of UR, nor will you understand God's power in the matter at hand.
Please I hope you really consider your belief here, and how it makes God appear, and how it contrasts with what scripture actually says, being that God IS all-knowing, and IS in control, and WORKS all things according to HIS will.
God has no need for a plan B my friend.
I will continue more in the next post as this is getting too long...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 23, 2010, 01:09:10 AMIt still contrasts with "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve jehovah." If God was just teasing them, I begin to have a desparate problem. If he meant it, then YOU begin to have a desperate problem.
Not if you look at -- Eph 1:11 -- which SAYS -- that GOD WORKS ALL THINGS according the the counsel (advising) of HIS OWN WILL...
ALL things means... ALL THINGS including ---> Sin (concluding us in Unbelief)/Repentence (delivering us from that which HE concluded)
Jer 29:14 -- and I will be found of you saith YHVH, and ...I... will turn away YOUR CAPTIVITY, ...and ...I... will gather YOU from ALL the NATIONS, and from ALL the PLACES [such as SIN] whither ...I... have driven YOU, saith YHVH, and ...I... will bring YOU ...again... into the place whence ...I... caused YOU to be CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE.
It's right there in the WORD, Theo... all YOU have to do is BELIEVE what the WORD SAYS... :cloud9:
YHVH decides WHO shall "choose" to serve Him, and WHO shall not:
Rom 9:17 -- For the SCRIPTURE SAITH unto Pharaoh... Even for this SAME PURPOSE have ...I... raised THEE up, that ...I... might show MY POWER ...in THEE... and that My Name be DECLARED throughout the earth...
Pharaoh DID (chose) as was ORDAINED by YHVH... that he DO (choose)... and IN that process was YHVH glorified by the "misdeeds" of Pharaoh, ...which stood HELPLESS before the POWER of the DELIVERANCE of YHVH.
Rom 9:11 -- for the children being NOT YET BORN, neither having DONE, ...good OR evil, that the PURPOSE of GOD according to ELECTION might stand... NOT of WORKS, but of HIM that CALLETH...
...willieH :HeartThrob:
I hate to be the bringer of such news WH, but you're starting to make sense.
Clear up a thing for me if you will.
Scripture says "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish..." which is used as a proof text about Usal. But the scripture does not stop at that point, but continues on to read "but that all should come to repentance." [II Pet 3:9]
What IS the will of God in this verse? That none perish? Nope. That all come to repentance. What say you?
It is a declarative statement.
All will come to repentance and thus not perish.
Along came the tempter; the lust of the eyes (understanding the mind), lust of the flesh (a heart of emotion) and the pride of life (the desires of the will). Thus, while the first Adam conceded to all that is in the world, the second Adam stood his ground against the natural disposition or temperament.
The mark extends deep down from the surface, yet is visible through distinctive traits or characteristics common to human beings when in opposition to the Spirit, as "The beast nature in us insists upon having its own way."
Self preservation leads to denial, however; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day (star) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire ... If any man's work (exerting effort directed to produce or accomplish something for themselves) shall be burned [katakaio; to burn down to the ground, to consume wholly, burn up, utterly – from the intensity of that light], he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15, also see Revelation 20:13-15)
The way, truth, and life that God has prepared for the health (salvation) of everyone is a fruit product of infinite wisdom, powerfully efficacious from beginning to end.
Perhaps, the psychology of Satan and Hell within Religions, including the fears of Eternal punishment have clouded the soul.
peacemaker
Wonderful Peacemaker!
Where have you been?
Please stay.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 24, 2010, 12:48:54 AM
I hate to be the bringer of such news WH, but you're starting to make sense.
Now when did WillieH ever make sense :laughing7:
Just kidding! WillieH and I go way back in our head banging days! :thumbsup: We both saw it as Iron sharpening Iron! :HeartThrob:
Yet we agree totally on God's total will over man!
Allow me to share some of my research! :2c:
Most Christians - and non-Christians - believe that human beings have "free will." They reason that if we don't have free will then we must embrace the doctrine of fatalism, meaning, there's nothing we can do about anything anyway because it's all worked out ahead of time - as in the doctrine of predestination. Because this issue has an important bearing on the character of God, we must find out what the Bible teaches.
God's word does not support the doctrine of
"free will" , nor does it support the concept of fatalism. The Bible does speak of "free will" offerings, but on the other hand, God says He is operating
ALL in accord with the counsel of
His own will." (Eph 1:11, Rom 8:28) But these two doctrines, though seemingly opposites, can be harmonized. One doctrine happens to be the divine viewpoint and the other, the human viewpoint.
If God "is operating
ALL in accord with the counsel of
His OWN WILL," then everything must be pre-arranged. "If everything is pre-arranged, then what is the use of doing anything?" you may ask. How can God be running
EVERYTHING, and yet human beings also have
"free will"?
We must understand that man does
not have "free will" even when he
thinks he does. Why do corporations pay a million dollars per minute to advertise during the Super Bowl game? Because it works! Why does it work? Because if you repeat something often enough, people will respond to it and do what you want them to do -- buy your product. They will be influenced consciously or subconsciously, to change their mind and do something they hadn't intended to do. Their "free will" has been manipulated by someone else!
Sophisticated research has been carried out for many decades to develop methods to change peoples minds about a product or an issue, political or religious. We make our decisions based on a combination of what we see and experience as well as what is in our subconscious. Yet we have very little control over what is in our subconscious. Many circumstances in our lives are not under our control, yet these same circumstances, in conjunction with our subconscious mind, are a large part of our ultimate decision-making.
Many persons imagine that they are carrying out their own free will when, in fact, they are really carrying out the
will of another who has a subtler intellect than their own.
Here's an illustration. Americans think we live in a free country. However, you are "free" only as long as you remain politically correct, you pay your income taxes, you don't speak about a bomb as you go through airport security, and many other restrictions of "freedom" we have learned to accept. We have accepted these restrictions, and the loss of many rights, yet we still consider ourselves "free."
Man's will is a product of heredity and environment. We were all born sinners. None of us has the freedom
"not to sin." Therefore, we are
NOT truly free! The Bible says, "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
When a man makes up his mind, his will, he subconsciously considers his own ego, the contacts he has made in the world about him, the psychology of the moment, including at times, the state of his stomach, and the condition of his finances. If you are wise enough, you could probably make up his mind for him.
In fact, wise men have always acted on this principle. They do not attempt to capture the will of others by a frontal attack. They know that "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." So they execute a flank movement around the side. They seek to change or modify one or more of the factors which compose man's will. If a child will not eat healthful food, then let it go hungry for a while. If a child refuses to give up a sharp knife with which it might cut itself, then you offer it a more desirable plaything.
Few men and women ever attain maturity in such matters as these, and all people may be made to change their mind by the very factors which have formed it in the first place.
God is in control of everything that takes place in the universe. If He were not in control, the universe would be a madhouse. Throughout the Word of God, man's will is
always subordinated to the will of God. Temporarily man's will appears to oppose God and is contrary to God's revelation in the Bible,
but ultimately man's will works God's way. The Bible says that God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart (Exodus 9:12) to do exactly the
opposite of what God appeared to want done. This is the way God works.
God provides opposition to His Word in order to manifest Himself.In order for God to reveal Himself to His creatures, it is God's will that His revealed will be opposed. In other words, God gave us the 10 Commandments, knowing that we would not be able to keep them, knowing that our carnal nature would be in opposition to this revealed will of His.
Have you ever wondered why God, Himself, put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil right in the middle of the Garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve couldn't possibly avoid it? Where they would be repeatedly enticed into eating from it? Where their temptation would be overwhelming?
If we don't want a little child to handle, and possibly break, fragile glass objects, we don't place those objects in easy reach of the child. We put them in a closet or on a high shelf where they will not be tempting to the little child. Yet God did exactly the opposite with Adam and Eve. He placed the forbidden tree right in the middle of the Garden, where they couldn't possibly avoid it. Then He told them "Don't eat of it." What was God's motive?
Think about this. We are told the Lamb (Jesus) was "slain from the foundation of the world," (Rev. 13:8) meaning that the Plan of Salvation, including Jesus' death for sinners, was planned
BEFORE man was ever created. The Plan of Salvation REQUIRED that Jesus die on the cross. Therefore, Jesus had to come in the form of being that had the "ability" to die. Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were incapable of dying. They did not become subject to death until
after they had sinned. If Adam and Eve, or their offspring had not sinned, neither they, nor Jesus would have been subject to death. Jesus
could not have died and
no one would have needed a Saviour anyway.
Therefore,
sin and death had to have been an integral part of the Plan of Salvation.
God plants impulses in the human heart and surrounds men with influences that impel men to oppose God's revelation, just like God did with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. It is imperative that God should clash with His creatures. It is essential that their wills withstand His will. Men imagine that they are in control of their own will and that no one can break their resolution, not even God. But this is foolishness. Men have no greater control over their will than the captain of a sailing vessel has over the set of the sails. If the captain is not demented, he will set his sails to suit his course, and that is
determined by the wind.To suggest that God has created a world of little gods, with absolute wills, is to dethrone God. However, God does give mankind the
consciousness that he has self-determination. It is essential to God's purpose that His creatures should be oblivious of the power which impels them, for their response must be without conscious constraint.
God, is the only Being in the universe who is unhampered by the chains of circumstance. God CREATES the circumstances in the lives of all of us. It is by this method that we walk in the steps which He has created for us before we were born. (Eph. 2:10) The highest and most powerful of earth's leaders play the part that God assigns them, though they don't know it.
Proverbs 21:1 says, "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will."
There is only one independent "free" will in the universe, and that is the will of God. In order to bring about His purpose, men must not be aware that they "live and move and have their being" in Him. The false "free will" that men believe they have, is the result of man being oblivious to God's ways. God provides opposition to His truth in order to make Himself known. Men imagine that their will is independent of God's will. Since they are unable to understand the intricacies that make up their own decisions, they delude themselves into thinking that their will is independent.
The story of Joseph and his brothers is a perfect example of God's way of working in our lives. Joseph's brothers were opposing the "will of God" by selling Joseph into slavery. They broke several of the Commandments, including "Thou shalt not kill" as Jesus said hating your brother in your heart is the same as murder. In addition, they lied to their father about what had happened to Joseph. But by resisting "God's will" they actually fulfilled God's ultimate
INTENTION! For by selling their brother Joseph into slavery, they eventually produced their own earthly "saviour", who saved them from death by famine and who protected and nurtured the very origin of God's fledgling nation, Israel. Joseph, after he became the leader of Egypt under Pharaoh, was able to sustain his entire family by providing food for them and by providing a fertile area for them to live in, to multiply and begin the entire nation of Israel.
When the whole episode was over and their father Jacob had died, the brothers then thought Joseph would take revenge, and they pleaded for their lives. They went before him and fell before his face, terrified that he would now have them killed. But we are told in Genesis 50:19,20 that Joseph said unto them, "Fear not, for am I in the place of God?
But as for you, you thought evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."
There's the answer. That's the way God works. He sets us up against Him, and
our sin ultimately leads to our salvation. God always brings good out of bad. The more we resist Him and the farther down we go, the more we will realize our ultimate need to depend entirely on Him.
Throughout this story of Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery, we can see that their own evil against Joseph ultimately led to their own conversion, repentance and salvation. It was a hard struggle and a lifetime of grief and guilt, but the entire family was saved and God had worked out His
ultimate intention.
To summarize, we
CAN resist
God's will as revealed in the Bible (The 10 Commandments), but we
CANNOT resist His
ultimate intention, which is to save us all.
One way to understand this whole issue is to study the
WORD of God -- The
WORDS of God! The specific words in the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures are very meaningful and have, in many places, been mistranslated in the King James Version of the Bible, and in many other versions as well. In Paul's letter to Timothy (2 Tim 1:13) he tells Timothy "to have a pattern of
SOUND words."
For instance, God's
"will" is often watered down to a mere
"wish" or changed to only a "desire." These
mistranslations assure us that God does
NOT "WILL" that all mankind be saved (1 Tim 2:4) but that He merely
"desires" it. And since man
WILLS otherwise, God is apparently powerless and impotent in the face of this "superior force" of man's human determination. How absurd!
Yet Philippians 2:13 says that
"it is God who is operating in us to WILL and to DO HIS good pleasure."Let us look at the original Greek words.
Will is thelo or thelema
Wish is euchomai
Desire is epithumia, and has to do with feelings, rather than with determination.
To be disposed is phroneo, and expresses the bent or bias.
Intend or intention is boulomai.
Each word has a specific meaning, yet the Bible translators have translated these words as they chose, rather than as to their true meaning. The exact meaning of each word can be understood by studying EVERY place in the Bible that the specific word is used, then making sure that the
same English translation is used in EVERY instance that the specific Greek word is used.
But mistranslations abound. For instance, The word
will is mistranslated into counsel, opinion, wish, about, eagerness, delight, accord and voluntary.
The word
"wish" is
euchomai, which lacks entirely the sense of determination that is essential to the word
"will", as is shown by this word's occurrences in the following texts:
Acts 27:29 (KJV): When Paul was on the ship, right before it was going to be shipwrecked, we read the following: "Then fearing lest we should have fallen upon rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and
wished (euchomai) for the day (daybreak)."
Romans 9:3 (KJV): "For I would
wish (euchomai) that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh."
3 John 2 (KJV): "Beloved, I
wish (euchomai) above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth."
We can see that when the Bible wants to say
wish, it has a special word for wish, and that is euchomai. The word will, which is the Greek word thelo or the derivative thelema is a totally different word from the word wish, which is euchomai. Thelo or thelema means will - it does NOT mean "wish", although the Bible translators take improper literary license to make it so.
The words intend and intention (from the Greek word boulomai) have a more far-reaching significance. They come from the verb "to plan", which means to look beyond the immediate action to the ultimate result. This is very important in the passages where it occurs, such as in the following texts:
Acts 27:42,43 (KJV): " And the soldiers' plan (counsel or intention = boule, from boulomai) was to kill the prisoners, lest any of them should swim out, and escape." "But the centurion, willing (bouloma, which means intending - yet the margin actually reduces the word to "wanting") to save Paul, kept them from their purpose (boulomai = intention)."
In the literal translation from the Greek, the word is actually boulomai, which means intention or intending. It shows the ultimate result and the determination. And this is how verse 43 actually reads: "Yet the centurion intending to bring Paul safely through, prevents them from their intention."
Romans 9:19 (KJV): "Thou wilt say then unto me, why does He (God) yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
A direct translation from the Greek reads as follows: "Why then is He (God) still blaming? For who hath withstood His intention?"
As we can see, the word for will is thelo or thelema, the word for intention, is boulomai. These are both very different from the word for "wish", which is euchomai! Again, it is no wonder Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 1:13 that we should "have a pattern of sound words" when we are dealing with Scriptures.
It is obviously impossible to understand God's mind through man's mistranslations. Confusion with these terms has arisen on all sides. As a result, each one interprets to suit his own system of theology.
Translators tend to define the word
thelo as
will when it is used to describe man, and then to define the same word,
thelo, as
wish when it is used to describe God.
Men are determined to have their own "will" and they deny that God is entitled to anything more than a "desire"!
This is a direct result of man's inclination to exalt himself and to degrade God.Part one!
Paul
Part TWO
If you study all of the occurrences of the Greek word thelema, or will, you will find that out of about 60 occurrences, at least 50 of them speak of the will of God! Man's will is not very important, according to the Scriptures.
Christ's whole mission is found in the text. "For He came to do the WILL of God." (Heb 10:7,9). In John 5:30 He says, "I am NOT seeking My will, but the will of Him who sends Me." It is NEVER found in the Bible that Jesus exercised His own will, except when it was in complete accord with His Father's will. Jesus did NOT do His own will, He did His Father's will. We do not need vigorous determination in the crisis of our lives, but we need strength to acquiesce to God's will for us.
If we want to see where OUR "free will" leads us, look to the crucifixion. Whenever you hear human determination exalted, let your ears hear that cry of 2000 years ago, "Crucify Him! Crucify Him." This was the "will" of God's supposed church of the time, those who had God's revelation, the religious nation of the Jews, who had been trained by the law and knew the "will" (Romans 2:18).
We have NO will of our own. If we haven't acquiesced to the will of God, we are controlled by the will of Satan. There is NOTHING in between! Most human beings are controlled by their wants and senses, and find their wills powerless to resist their carnal desires. The main purpose of this "earth walk" journey of ours is to allow us, with God's help, to understand and overcome our fleshly nature. It's called the process of sanctification. If we don't overcome our fleshly nature and learn to live like Jesus, we are not fit to live forever with the Lord.
In Romans 9:9-18, Paul informs us that "It is NOT of him who is WILLING, nor of him who is RACING (running), BUT OF GOD THE MERCIFUL." "It is a sad sign of the times that the perversity of mankind persists in injecting passages on other subjects in order to nullify this very decisive declaration of God. In Revelation 22:17 it says 'Whosoever will' are invited to take the Water of Life freely. The use of this phrase in preaching the Gospel is a most flagrant perversion. Also, to reason that because some will not come to Christ (John 5:40), therefore only those who WILL are saved, is only one more instance of the depravity of the human intellect. In truth ALL men will NOT come to Christ. There "WILL" prevents them. Only the superior power of God's will actually brings men to Him. Remember Jesus said "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him." (John 6:44) Philippians 2:13 says, "It is GOD Who is operating in you TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight." By means of God's Spirit and God's Word, our own "will" is superseded by God's determination." (1)
"But there are those who cry out greatly against making puppets, or mere automatons, out of men. At all hazards, we are told, we must maintain human individuality and the godlike attribute of "free will." What is the meaning of this? It is nothing less than a revolt of the creature against the Creator, the desire to be as God, even though it is always presented under the guise of religion. This doctrine of "free will" is found nowhere in the Scriptures, but it is the basis of most interpretations of the Bible...In their proud repudiation of the position of puppets, men are acting merely as phonographs, for they repeat a well worn record made by the spirit that is operating in the 'sons of stubbornness' before man imagined he had a 'free will' in the Garden of Eden, "You shall be as God." Satan provides the record - and Satan turns the handle - and man speaks! What a wonderful little god he is!" (2)
Few of us understand what it is to be a creature, a created being. If we have so much "free will" why weren't we consulted when we were born, regarding our place of birth, our nationality, who our parents would be, our face, our body build. All of these were forced on us. Even our body functions are involuntary. They are not controlled by our "will." We eat our food, and it is digested and the nutrients sent to the proper place in the body without us being able to exert any influence over the digestive and assimilation process. We breathe in the air, almost unconsciously. We may want to be tall, but we are small. No one can "add a cubit to his height."
But just because the Scriptures clearly teach us that a man has no free will does not prove that man cannot be judged by God for his actions. Rom 3:9-19 says that ALL are subject to His just verdict. We are not discussing man's relation to God's judgement, but God's absolute will to save all of His lost creatures. Because of God's WILL, no creature has any jurisdiction over his own destiny, in order to be lost eternally. Look at the story of the Potter and the clay in Romans 9:16-21:
"So then it is NOT of him that willeth, NOR of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. (Comment: It is NOT our will that is in charge, but it is of ALL of God!)
"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Comment: God raised Pharaoh up precisely for God to show His own power.)
"Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardens. (Comment: God decides on whom He will have mercy and whose heart He will harden.)
"You will say then to me, 'Why does He (God) find fault? (Comment: The question asked here is "How can God hold US responsible, if He is the one doing it?") For who has resisted His will?
"But who are you to reply against God? Shall the thing that is formed say to Him that formed it, 'Why have you made me so?
"Has not the potter power over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"
God says He makes one vessel for honor and one for dishonor and no one has a right to tell Him what to do because He is the Creator. God, and ONLY God, is in charge!
The theory of man's "free will" actually elevates man ABOVE God!
There is NO question about God. He WILLS that ALL men be saved (1 Tim 2:4), but, according to Christian theology, He is impotent to carry out His will. Yet, on the other hand, when man wills NOT to be saved, he apparently is omnipotent, and God Himself can do nothing! This is deification of man and dethronement of God!
God can manage even the greatest of men with ease as seen in Revelation 17:17. Everyone today knows how difficult it is to get the rulers of various nations to agree. Yet the ten kings are led by God Himself in their opposition to His will! "God imparts to their hearts to form His opinion," and to be unanimous in it. If God can do that with ten world powers at the zenith of their might, it will be nothing at all for Him to turn human hearts toward Himself. Undoubtedly, the ten kings will pride themselves on carrying out their own "free will." No man is conscious of what is put in his heart. It is God Who "locks all up together in stubbornness" (Romans 11:32). He Who locks, can also unlock.
"The case of Pharaoh is the classic example of the gulf between God's will and God's intention. God's revealed will was very plain. He said, "Let My people go!" Eventually, Israel was liberated. But the account clearly shows that God's intention included more than His revealed will, and that it also involved opposition to His will. God's revealed will, what Israel understood, was limited to the release of Israel. But His intention was to display His own power and glorify His Name in all the earth through the process. This is given to us as an example of God's complete purpose - and of the process by which He will attain it. God uses both ignorance of, and opposition to, His will, to bring about His final object.
"But it is obvious that God could not have revealed His intention. He could not tell Pharaoh that while He asked him to let the people go, he really did not want him to comply, but desired to use him as a foil for the revelation of God's power. This would actually make a mere machine out of Pharaoh. Instead, it was the ignorance of God's ultimate object, which made the whole procedure real to the actors in it. They did not by any means feel or act as mere puppets. Notwithstanding that each and every one was doing precisely what was needed to accomplish God's final goal." (3)
The highest expression of God's wisdom lies in His ability to transform every effort against Him into that which is not only favorable to His plan, but absolutely essential to His purpose. Truth needs opposition for its development and dissemination.
God always brings something good out of something bad. When all is over, there will be a perfected universe. We will not be worrying about our past sins, but we will be overwhelmed with God's wisdom and love in their vindication. He will bring good out of every sinful act. In absolute reality, every sin will be justified by God turning it into something good. This is true "Justification."
This teaching gives us stability, and a calm confidence in the face of chaotic conditions that surround us. But we are not worried as we once were by the awful opposition to God's will. We know that God will fulfill His purpose. The deluge of evil and sin, however contrary it may be to His will, is essential and indispensable to His ultimate intention.
God is a Deity infinite in power, matchless in wisdom, limitless in His affections, Who is "operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His OWN WILL." (Eph 1:11)
In Old Testament times, "God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Ex 10:20). So also today, "whom He is willing, He is hardening." (Rom 9:17,18)
God's ultimate intention is to become ALL in His creatures. (1 Cor 15:28) Will He accomplish this by giving each person an independent "will" so that they may be His rivals in the regulation of the universe? Is total chaos the end that God has in view? Of course not. That's why every creature in creation now "lives and moves and has their being in God!" (Acts 17:28)
God created every one of us. He is responsible for us, just as parents are responsible for the children they bring into the world. We had no choice to be anything but a sinner. God's plan is to reconcile ALL to Him (Col 1:20)
When parents give birth to children, it is their obligation to take care of them. By the same reasoning, God created us and He knew we would all be sinners, surrounded by darkness. He too, has an obligation to care for us, just as we have an obligation to care for our children.
It would be cruel for God to give us total free will, to allow us to be completely on our own when He knows we are incapable of running our lives. We don't know what's going to happen in the next year, in the next day, nor even in the next hour. But God does. To leave us on our own would be the same as taking our 7 year old child to the center of New York City, leaving him there and saying, "You're on your own!" No responsible parent would do that. Neither would God leave us in a similar situation.
How comforting to know that God cares so much for us that He is not willing to let us drift through life with our own "free will." Instead He is in control. He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph 1:11) and His WILL is that NONE should perish, but ALL should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
God will eventually lead EVERY ONE He has created, back to Him.
There is room for ONLY ONE "WILL" in this world. God WILL be ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:28). His WILL alone, is irresistible. His will is the ONLY will that will prevail. Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I WILL DRAW ALL unto Me." (John 12:32).
The question is, do you know your place?
Paul
QuoteWhy do corporations pay a million dollars per minute to advertise during the Super Bowl game? Because it works!
Sure it works, but not on everyone, I watch all kinds of commericals and am not compelled to go buy much of anything. However, I do not disagree that commercialization works, but not in the way that is implied. Influence is not the loss of freedom. Boundaries are not the loss of the ability to choose based upon all the knowledge one has to work with. God's foreknowledge is not the manifestation of mans inability to have excersized a choice based upon his own will. Scripture as a whole shows that God has given man this ability because man suffers the consequenses of his actions.
QuoteThere is only one independent "free" will in the universe, and that is the will of God.
Yet, scripture does not agree with the concept that is put forth in the above quote. You point out that Gods will is not bound by anything yet mans will is.
Yet God cannot do absolutely anything. God cannot lie, so to think that God has an independant free will is not the case.
Hb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
God has the same kind of freedom we do, God is bound by something or HE COULD LIE.
So if God has a free will, then we have one of the same nature because WE ARE CREATED IN HIS IMAGE.
QuoteThere is only one independent "free" will in the universe, and that is the will of God.
QuoteYet, scripture does not agree with the concept that is put forth in the above quote. You point out that Gods will is not bound by anything yet mans will is.
Yet God cannot do absolutely anything. God cannot lie, so to think that God has an independant free will is not the case.
Hb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
There is absolutely NOTHING constraining GOD... but Himself... that which makes it IMPOSSIBLE to LIE, is HIS WILL... which is permeated IN TRUTH.
Isaiah 40:13 --
WHO hath DIRECTED the Spirit of YHVH? Or being His COUNSELLOR, hath TAUGHT Him?ALL things are ESTABLISHED by HIS
WILL --
Eph 1:11GOD is not limited... He COULD lie... but He is UN
WILLING to do so... WHY? Because He
IS TRUTH...
John 14:6"TRUTH" cannot "LIE", otherwise it ceases to be "TRUTH". :dontknow:
QuoteGod has the same kind of freedom we do, God is bound by something or HE COULD LIE.
I just answered this... You can take anything and place that "anything" within His KNOWLEDGE... and/or ability. However... because He has the KNOWLEDGE and ABILITY, does not equate to being CONFINED by it...
That which CONFINES God, is Himself and His WILL which is FREE to do as it "WILLS"... which said "WILL" chooses
NOT to LIE.
QuoteSo if God has a free will, then we have one of the same nature because WE ARE CREATED IN HIS IMAGE.
Close but no cigar... :mnah:
We are BEING Created IN His image... His "IMAGE" is
JESUS CHRIST --
Heb 1:3 -- and we, as we live are
being MOLDED into that IMAGE via the hand of the POTTER --
Rom 9:21-23 -- Isaiah 64:8 -- Jer 18:4Until OUR WILL is FREED from the INFLUENCE and ENCUMBRANCE of the FLESH, our "will" is subjected to its inherent VANITY --- BY GOD...
This "will" can only become FREE upon its return to DUST... Until then, we remain in part, subject to the vanity --
Rom 8:20 -- and the bondage of our "will"... which NATURALLY "chooses" SIN, ...the transgression of the COMMAND of GOD.
Once each of us has returned to DUST, in the resurrection shall we come forth in the SPIRIT --
1 Cor 15:44 -- UNENCUMBERED, by the EARTHY FLESH in which we have experienced the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL --
1 Cor 15:42-491 Cor 15:49 --
and AS we HAVE BORNE the IMAGE of the EARTHY [in the FLESH]... so ...we SHALL also [future] bear the IMAGE of the HEAVENLY [CHRIST -- in the SPIRIT] The Apostle PAUL is herein speaking to the Corinthians, of the "IMAGE of the HEAVENLY" as something that is future,
YET TO COME... and NOT within his (or their) present experience.
The "IMAGE of the HEAVENLY" is TOTALLY aligned with the WILL of
YHVH... which "IMAGE" was/is,
CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
There simply is no scripture that says God could lie under any circumstances, so he is limited because he cannot lie.
He cannot lie, so that is something he cannot do. That is just how it is.
QuoteUntil OUR WILL is FREED from the INFLUENCE and ENCUMBRANCE of the FLESH, our "will" is subjected to its inherent VANITY --- BY GOD...
I never said that we weren't restricted by anything. I said our will is of the same Nature as Gods. I cannot be said to be free if I am in prison, but I am free within that prison to make the best of my circumstances. I am free to give glory to God or curse him.
No one is free from Gods influence, but we are free to resist whether that resistance is ultimatly futile or not. I can make my own life hard and miserable or I can make choices that can make the best of any place that I am at. I have done both and within the path that I chose that was miserable, God was teaching me. We can call that not free, but really it is an argument over a term rather than seeing that scripture is what defines the nature of it all.
If God is completely free from all restriction then he can lie. Whether that restriction is his inherant nature or not doesn't change that he is restricted from lying. He cannot lie, period. Nothing can be shown in scripture to say he could lie if he wanted to. There is nothing in scripture that states anything of the kind.
All I can do is take scripture and let that tell the story.
You can call my will whatever you like, but I am free to devise my own way, but God will direct my steps despite that. My own life simply tells me what scripture says on the matter. I have made choices that have taken me to dark places, God directed my feet despite those choices to teach me and chastise me in the way that I chose to go.
Proverbs 16:9
Certainly he already knew that I would make those choices, this is why he prepared the way for the routes I choose. This does not remove the ability I have, it is only harder to conceive because of that vast knowlege of God already knowing yet we were still free to do it.
Proverbs 5:21
This is why we are accountable for our actions.
QuoteIt is NEVER found in the Bible that Jesus exercised His own will, except when it was in complete accord with His Father's will.
Whether Jesus excersized his own will or not has nothing to do with the ability of being able to do just that.
Mt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].
Jesus understood, that he could have chosen otherwise.
Mt 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
So to suggest Jesus did not have the ability to excersize his own will is not what scripture tells.
Great post Pierac :goodpost:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2010, 04:37:38 AM
QuoteWhy do corporations pay a million dollars per minute to advertise during the Super Bowl game? Because it works!
Quote from: Paul HazelwoodSure it works, but not on everyone, I watch all kinds of commericals and am not compelled to go buy much of anything.
I would say the same. But are we right?
"Sure it works, but not on everyone" why others fall for a trap while it's always "I" that don't fall for it.
I think we all fall for it. But some people run of to the shop even before the advertising block is finished. Others remember it when they are shopping for a (similar) article.
With fashion it's even worse. This year year people kill for a certain item and the next year they don't even want to found dead in the same item. Did their taste change?
QuoteGod's foreknowledge is not the manifestation of mans inability to have excersized a choice based upon his own will. Scripture as a whole shows that God has given man this ability because man suffers the consequenses of his actions.
Paul I think you can't prove that and neither someone else can disprove it.
Today you chose to wear your brown shoes and tommorrow your black shoes. That seems free will. Perhaps it is.
But perhaps it isn't because the choice you made is influenced by your wife or kids. You likely are aware of that. But would you be aware if God influenced you? I think not.
Again I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying some things are just unknown.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 25, 2010, 06:49:22 PM
I think we all fall for it.
I have no desire to buy some things that are advertized. I have never purchased a box of tampons and no amount of advertizing will ever compell me to do so. If the logic was true then after 45 years of seeing tampon commercials on TV I should have went out and bought at least one box for myself whether I needed them or not.
Quote
Again I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying some things are just unknown.
That is fine, but I have never declared that we are not affected by influence, I just do not see scripture aligning fully to what some say about our own will. It's nothing more than that.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2010, 07:34:56 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 25, 2010, 06:49:22 PM
I think we all fall for it.
I have no desire to buy some things that are advertized. I have never purchased a box of tampons and no amount of advertizing will ever compell me to do so. If the logic was true then after 45 years of seeing tampon commercials on TV I should have went out and bought at least one box for myself whether I needed them or not.Quote
Really? :laughing7:
But IF you somehow need to buy a pack and on TV the advertised boxes are always white then you likely buy the white box instead of boxes with another color.
:dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 25, 2010, 07:46:56 PM
Really? :laughing7:
But IF you somehow need to buy a pack and on TV the advertised boxes are always white then you likely buy the white box instead of boxes with another color.
:dontknow:
LOL, Really..... ;)
But why are the commercials not compelling me to buy them? That was the point made, you say we all fall for it.
Agreed. Not all the time ofcourse.
Let me rephrase: We all fall for manipulation many times in our life.
Better? :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 25, 2010, 08:04:46 PM
Agreed. Not all the time ofcourse.
Let me rephrase: We all fall for manipulation many times in our life.
Better? :winkgrin:
No problem with that.
Therefore hear the word of the Lord,' I saw the LORD sitting
on His throne with all the host of heaven standing on His right
and on His left. And the Lord said 'Who will entice Ahab King of
Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to His death
there?
One suggested this and another that, finally,a spirit came
forward and stood before the Lord and said 'I will entice him"
By what means, the Lord asked? I will go and be a lying spirit
in all the mouths of his prophets,' he said.
You will suceed in enticing him," said the Lord. "Go and do it"
Matthew 6;13 and lead us not into temptation
Isaaih 66;4 I also, will choose their delusions,and will bring
their fears upon them; because when I called none did answer;
when I spake they did not hear..[ BLESSED ARE YOUR EYES
BECAUSE THEY SEE, AND YOU EARS BECAUSE THEY HEAR].but
did evil before my eyes...
and chose THAT in which I delighted not.
Luke 7;22 go back and report to John what you have seen and heard. The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the DEAF HEAR
John 9;39 Jesu said 'For judgement I have come into the world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind[do not judge by mere appearances]
Romans 11;25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery,brothers, so that you may not be conceited. Israel has expierenced a hardening in part until the full number of the gentiles come in
v 32 For God has bound all men over unto disobediance so that he may have mercy on them all.
This free will topic could get wore out real quick, and for the record if God saving all mankind does mean absolutely we have no free will, freedom of our will a certain liberty of our will, then thats cool with me. God will be the one to correct me and I accept his correction.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
I can only go by the entire scope of scripture the best I know and through prayer and study offer things to consider. I don't know if I will have much more to say on the matter.
Quote
QuoteUntil OUR WILL is FREED from the INFLUENCE and ENCUMBRANCE of the FLESH, our "will" is subjected to its inherent VANITY --- BY GOD...
I never said that we weren't restricted by anything. I said our will is of the same Nature as Gods.
Disagree... Because
CHRIST CLEARLY differentiated HIS WILL from GOD's --
Mark 14:36 -- If one OPPOSES the other, they are NOT the SAME, nor are of the SAME "NATURE"... otherwise they would "naturally" COINCIDE...
QuoteI cannot be said to be free if I am in prison, but I am free within that prison to make the best of my circumstances. I am free to give glory to God or curse him.
No one is free from Gods influence, but we are free to resist whether that resistance is ultimatly futile or not.
We are not FREE of WILL, for we must ahere to HIS, as HE works ALL THINGS --
Eph 1:11 -- This is verified in
Rom 9:11 -- Also in
Rom 9:19 -- for WHO hath RESISTED His WILL?
Some contest the INFINITE from an imprisoned finite position, some don't. :dontknow:
QuoteI can make my own life hard and miserable or I can make choices that can make the best of any place that I am at. I have done both and within the path that I chose that was miserable, God was teaching me. We can call that not free, but really it is an argument over a term rather than seeing that scripture is what defines the nature of it all.
Within the above statement is found that which CONTESTS the Scripture --
Eph 1:11 -- which clearly notes that GOD is WORKING ALL THINGS... :dontknow: ...Either HE is "working" ALL THINGS, or ...He is not.
QuoteIf God is completely free from all restriction then he can lie.
He CAN... He just ...chooses... NOT to... :dontknow:
As was noted, He ...IS... truth... and should TRUTH, ...LIE... then it ceases to be TRUTH.
GOD is only "restricted" by His own inherent FREE WILL which chooses NOT, to LIE, which is NOT really a boundary, limitation or "restriction", it is the
WAY He ...
IS... which "
way" is TRUTH.
John 14:6 --
I ...AM... the WAY [which IS] the TRUTH, and the life.QuoteWhether that restriction is his inherant nature or not doesn't change that he is restricted from lying. He cannot lie, period. Nothing can be shown in scripture to say he could lie if he wanted to. There is nothing in scripture that states anything of the kind.
Like UR... it's there, you just "choose" NOT to observe it.
The Scripture doesn't say that "God cannot lie, period"... those are YOUR WORDS, not His... His are:
It is IMPOSSIBLE for God to LIE --
Heb 6:18 -- only because He, in which
ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE --
Matt 19:26 -- Mark 10:27 -- Mark 14:36 -- chooses NOT to lie.
QuoteAll I can do is take scripture and let that tell the story.
Or not.
QuoteYou can call my will whatever you like, but I am free to devise my own way, but God will direct my steps despite that.
The heart of man (which includes you and I) is DESPARATELY WICKED by nature --
Jer 17:9 -- so anything it "devises" is hardly "free"... rather is IMPRISONED by its own inherent wickedness... and needs to be DELIVERED from it, by the DELIVERER, which is GOD...
QuoteMy own life simply tells me what scripture says on the matter. I have made choices that have taken me to dark places, God directed my feet despite those choices to teach me and chastise me in the way that I chose to go.
Proverbs 16:9
Certainly he already knew that I would make those choices, this is why he prepared the way for the routes I choose. This does not remove the ability I have, it is only harder to conceive because of that vast knowlege of God already knowing yet we were still free to do it.
And you "went" in those routes, because HE had DECLARED that you would...
Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- and you, in walking in those steps, when they are reviewed by Him, will come to agree in EVERY instance that HIS
way is the ONLY
WAY... which "
WAY" is
TRUTH, which is WHAT ...HE IS...
QuoteProverbs 5:21
This is why we are accountable for our actions.
No one is arguing "accountability"...
We are only "accountable" in that we shall agree that in all areas, ...what GOD COMMANDS, was the right "choice", whether it (alignment with His COMMAND) was made in those instances or not.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
QuoteHe CAN... He just ...chooses... NOT to...
Alright.
Gods word says it is impossible.
Hb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
I'll go by that, I'm sure you do not mind.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin
Again, have to go with scripture.
Yes it will all be revealed one day and it will be a great day when Willie and I have nothing to disagree over ever again. :happy3:
QuoteYes it will all be revealed one day and it will be a great day when Willie and I have nothing to disagree over ever again. :happy3:
Amen... :laughing7:
Till then, guess we, as followers of
CHRIST, must Love one another, through those "disagreements"... :winkgrin:
Within the awareness, that neither of us, has a "complete" knowledge... and that both of us have more things to learn... :nod:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on March 25, 2010, 11:11:25 PM
QuoteYes it will all be revealed one day and it will be a great day when Willie and I have nothing to disagree over ever again. :happy3:
Amen... :laughing7:
Till then, guess we, as followers of CHRIST, must Love one another, through those "disagreements"... :winkgrin:
Within the awareness, that neither of us, has a "complete" knowledge... and that both of us have more things to learn... :nod:
...willieH :cloud9:
I agree with that 100%.
Holy frijoles so much good stuff at this site and this forum.
I recall somewhere (I can't remember where) reading that God is like the chess grand master we are the rookies. Sure the rookie is "free" to move his pieces wherever he wants, but in the end the grand master is inevitably going to win.
(http://www.33smiley.com/smiley2/people/male/13.gif)
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2010, 08:49:04 PM
This free will topic could get wore out real quick, and for the record if God saving all mankind does mean absolutely we have no free will, freedom of our will a certain liberty of our will, then thats cool with me. God will be the one to correct me and I accept his correction.
.
Thanks Paul and everyone for beginning to take the topic back towards the OP and within forum guidelines :thumbsup: Not sure why it was allowed to resurface, [note for any newer members that may not know] but we've been requesting and reinforcing for the past year+ to discuss the scriptures without using direct references to the hot-button fw/sov terms, and without locking into a struggle about it. Looks like you're bringing it back on track, good job. Thanks again, James.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2010, 08:49:04 PM
This free will topic could get wore out real quick, and for the record if God saving all mankind does mean absolutely we have no free will, freedom of our will a certain liberty of our will, then thats cool with me. God will be the one to correct me and I accept his correction.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
I can only go by the entire scope of scripture the best I know and through prayer and study offer things to consider. I don't know if I will have much more to say on the matter.
Amen Paul,
It was not
"free will" that got me fired up enough to seek understanding in reguards to Eternal Torment! It was the Calvinist! Yes, I attended a Calvinist church and came to see some scary stuff in our scriptures,
IF E.T.
was correct that is!Let me explain some scripture to you. :wink:
Paul,
Your faith comes not from you! If it did then you would not be relying entirely on GRACE!
So where does your faith come from?
Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [ the gift of] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].
Yes indeed! Even
your belief is a Gift!
Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been
granted [the gift] to grant as a
favor for Christ's sake not only to
believe in (
adhere to, rely on, and trust in) Him, but also to suffer in His behalf."
Time to open your eyes Paul!
Net Bible Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been we were predestined 29 according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will
Net Bible commentary: 29
tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb
κληρόω (
klēroō) in the OT was to
"appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb
κληρονομέω [klēronomclaimed as God's own possession,29 since eō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance:
"In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.
Now let's get down to business!
We are told in no uncertain terms that it is God who enlightens our minds to famthom these wonderful truths we are privileged to comprehend. Jesus said...
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (
Gr drags) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Php 2:13
for it is God who is at work in you, both
to will and
to work for His good pleasure.
Rom 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and
so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." 28
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake,
but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
Now let's review the apostles Paul's version of our lot!
Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the
inheritance G2819 of the saints in Light.
What
inheritance? G2819
G2819
κληρος kléros; gen. klérou, masc. noun probably from kláō (G2806), to break. A lot.
(I)
A lot, the stone or mark itself which was cast into the urn or lap (Mat_27:35; Mar_15:24; Luk_23:34; Joh_19:24; Act_1:26; Sept.: Psa_22:18; Jon_1:7).
It seems that the Greek method of casting lots was also followed by the Romans. The lots of several parties were properly marked or distinguished and put into a vessel which was violently shaken by one who turned his face away. The lot which first fell upon the ground indicated the man chosen or preferred for the occasion. The Romans attributed divine choice to this method.
(II) A lot, allotment, part, or share (Act_1:17
, Act_1:26; Act_8:21; Sept.: Deu_10:9; Deu_12:12).
(III) An inheritance (Act_26:18 [cf. Act_20:32]; Col_1:12 [cf. the noun klēronomía {G2817}, inheritance]).
(IV) Kléroi, in the pl. (1Pe_5:3), seems to denote those distinct congregations of Christians (cf. Deu_4:20; Deu_9:29) which fell to the lot, as it were, of different pastors. Deriv.: klēronómos (G2818), one who has an inheritance, a lot; klēróō (G2820), to cast lots, determine by lot; naúklēros (G3490), an owner of a ship; holóklēros (G3648), an entire portion, intact. Syn.: méros (G3313), a part, portion of the whole; merís (G3310), part, share.
Just ask John the Baptist's father! Luke 1:9 according to the custom of the priestly office, he was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense. G2819
Ouch! Paul this sucks!
1Pe 5:3 nor yet as lording it over those allotted (again G2819) to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.
Now let's see this in action!
Indeed, You know you and I were saved while we were yet sinners! Yes, you and I were saved in our sins! Indeed, however, others were not alotted as you and I! They were not saved in their sins!
Mark 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."
No my friend! Their lot was different! Read it again! If they heard the truth, they would have turned and been forgiven!
But Paul said it was not their lot! (Yet)!
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Yep...Elect! G1589
εκλογή
eklogé; gen. eklogés, fem. noun from eklégō (G1586), to choose, select. Election, choice, selection.
So Paul, do you want to see this preaching action of God's apostles in your New Testament in action?
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Hum? Let's review the Latin Vulgate!
Act 13:48 audientes autem gentes gavisae sunt et glorificabant verbum Domini et crediderunt quotquot erant praeordinati ad vitam aeternam
No paul, I don't read Latin, but I know praeordinati when I see it!
After all... John 6:65 And He (Jesus) was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Don't worry, each will come in God's on time!
If your of the chosen lot! What make you think you can pass judgement on the harden ones? Paul told you...
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,... for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable... For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Who know's Paul, maybe you are chosen? Only God knows HIS chosen LOT!
Chosen indeed, but for what? Yep, that 1000 years before the rest of the dead come to life. (Rev 20:5)
I'd sure like to know what's happening in that Thousand years before the rest come!
Paul
|
Paul, you have not written anything I argue against per sey. But none of that changes the scripture that I pointed out. The scripture I pointed out does not change the scripture you gave either.
What changes is what we can know. Salvation is not of us, and I have never said anything different. The reason you may feel that I say otherwise is that we take a term and argue over it rather than actually letting scripture be the guide.
I honestly do not care if you call it "F W" or not. The fact remains is that I CAN devise a way in my heart not because I have "F W" but because SCRIPTURE says I can in proverbs.
I CAN put my life into turmoil through a choice I make, because SCRIPTURE says I can in Matthew 7.
But the reality is that GOD prepared the way for all I choose to do because SCRIPTURE says he does also in proverbs.
That preparation is what prevents me from being lost forever but saves me despite the choices I make that take me to through the path of destruction as stated in 1 Corinthians.
Not because I do or do not have "F W" but because SCRIPTURE says that's how it is
You can apply whatever term you like and that does not change scriptural reality. I am all for continuing to seek that reality and it can be called whatever it's called.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 26, 2010, 04:39:14 AM
Paul, you have not written anything I argue against per sey. But none of that changes the scripture that I pointed out. The scripture I pointed out does not change the scripture you gave either.
What changes is what we can know. Salvation is not of us, and I have never said anything different. The reason you may feel that I say otherwise is that we take a term and argue over it rather than actually letting scripture be the guide.
Both of you Paul's are saying good stuff.
Good summary of this topic, PaulH. Isn't that the truth? We often end up quibbling over terms instead of what really matters. Very good :thumbsup:.
And I got a chuckle out of this;
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 26, 2010, 04:39:14 AM
I honestly do not care if you call it "F W" or not. The fact remains is that I CAN devise a way in my heart not because I have "F W" but because SCRIPTURE says I can in proverbs.
:laugh: You really tried, didn't cha brother. I think FW makes fishing lures, don't they? :coolsmile:
Quote from: jabcat on March 26, 2010, 04:49:54 AM
Both of you Paul's are saying good stuff.
Yes the other Paul did say things I agree with very much, sometimes I do not mention that when I open my foghorn.
Quote:laugh: You really tried, didn't cha brother. I think FW makes fishing lures, don't they? :coolsmile:
LOL
...just something to read:
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW4.htm
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 26, 2010, 05:06:04 AM
...just something to read:
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW4.htm
One of my favorites :thumbsup:.
Quote from: jabcat on March 26, 2010, 05:07:43 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 26, 2010, 05:06:04 AM
...just something to read:
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW4.htm
One of my favorites :thumbsup:.
Mine too.
Left to our own devices, God planned and made Way.
Oh! Proud Man — vanity — all is vanity.
http://www.rise-worldwide.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/all-is-vanity.jpeg (http://www.rise-worldwide.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/all-is-vanity.jpeg)
Who am I?
Who I am!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWeEYKqAdQ8&feature=related
I Am Yours, because of Who You Are
It's all about the reNEWing of our minds and identifying with Christ.
Without Him...just look at the villains of history — we are they!
With Him — we are the masterpiece of God's creation — Emmanuel, God with us.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=05Y-Px39cm4
AND WHO IS THIS EMMANUEL, GOD WITH US?
IT IS YOU DEAR SAINTS, YOU IN HIM, HIM IN US!
Quote from: peacemaker on March 24, 2010, 05:34:21 AM
Along came the tempter; the lust of the eyes (understanding the mind), lust of the flesh (a heart of emotion) and the pride of life (the desires of the will). Thus, while the first Adam conceded to all that is in the world, the second Adam stood his ground against the natural disposition or temperament.
The mark extends deep down from the surface, yet is visible through distinctive traits or characteristics common to human beings when in opposition to the Spirit, as "The beast nature in us insists upon having its own way."
Self preservation leads to denial, however; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day (star) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire ... If any man's work (exerting effort directed to produce or accomplish something for themselves) shall be burned [katakaio; to burn down to the ground, to consume wholly, burn up, utterly – from the intensity of that light], he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15, also see Revelation 20:13-15)
The way, truth, and life that God has prepared for the health (salvation) of everyone is a fruit product of infinite wisdom, powerfully efficacious from beginning to end.
Perhaps, the psychology of Satan and Hell within Religions, including the fears of Eternal punishment have clouded the soul.
"Every clouded soul has a silver lining; it never hurts to see the brighter side of things."
A cloudy day is no match for a sunny disposition.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 24, 2010, 05:43:32 AM
Wonderful Peacemaker!
Where have you been?
Please stay.
I'll be back, yet always present.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 26, 2010, 04:39:14 AM
Paul, you have not written anything I argue against per sey. But none of that changes the scripture that I pointed out. The scripture I pointed out does not change the scripture you gave either.
What changes is what we can know. Salvation is not of us, and I have never said anything different. The reason you may feel that I say otherwise is that we take a term and argue over it rather than actually letting scripture be the guide.
I honestly do not care if you call it "F W" or not. The fact remains is that I CAN devise a way in my heart not because I have "F W" but because SCRIPTURE says I can in proverbs.
I CAN put my life into turmoil through a choice I make, because SCRIPTURE says I can in Matthew 7.
But the reality is that GOD prepared the way for all I choose to do because SCRIPTURE says he does also in proverbs.
Paul, I have been following the posts lately instead of being the posts, because I am perplexed by some of what I am reading. Please indicate if I am misapplying what has been said. One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned. Have I misunderstood?
Is it so, that God selects whom he will to do his will, and selects others to serve his will as protagonists? As sinners? Does God choose some from among men to be punished for doing that which God designed him to do in violation of what God commands all men to do? Help me understand this.
That preparation is what prevents me from being lost forever but saves me despite the choices I make that take me to through the path of destruction as stated in 1 Corinthians.
Not because I do or do not have "F W" but because SCRIPTURE says that's how it is
You can apply whatever term you like and that does not change scriptural reality. I am all for continuing to seek that reality and it can be called whatever it's called.
[/quote]
Dear Theo
you know what , I am so glad you are careful
with how you hear and how you handle the Word of Life
and make sure things are settled within and set well with you
It took years before the Lord and the Holy Spirit taught me His Truth about salvation
the Love of God is far greater than any human mind can comprehend
and though we think we have the mind of Christ
we can read in the LIVING WORD all the examples of those whom stumbled in the Living Word over and over again
and in humility I confess to be as one of them :mblush:
no one can ever speak these things without an annointing on them from Jesus Himself
its a absolute Truth
many cannot accept this
just as many could not accept it when Jesus come the first time and told them of the new covenant Jesus Himself was bringing in ...
all the percecutions and doubts and our faith being tested in this very thing , over and over again FATHER showing His faithfulness though Jesus Christ
the Body of Christ/ body of living works is ALIVE and moving in the earth and changing minds and hearts continually
the breath of God , all that has to be done to make this as real as rain in you
and that comes by faith and faith comes by hearing and those whom come are sent by the Lord Himself , proving that His love , mercy and great grace are a reality in a world with no hope , but in Him
we serve a Living God and are sons of God by the adoption into His family of whom all the new heavens and earth are named
Jesus Christ , this name was hidden till He was sent by the Father
and none can claim it is NOT HIM doing it / that is what we do know its not of ourselves
without His Holy Spirit living in us and giving us the mind of Christ doing His will ...
we are to love and mostly forgive and are to even find joy in all tribulations knowing it is working the righteousness of God and revealing Christ Light in the darkness of this world
be bleessed by Him in all you seek in the Lord and His wisdom
:cloud9:
Amen rosered!!!!
Here is the part of the article that was presented that convinced me that everything that happens in our lives no matter how small is OF, BY and THROUGH God. There is no way of getting around the fact that God is working everything out to his satisfaction, not us.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Even if Adam was a free moral agent, God is responsible for what happened in the Garden, for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it who made him a free moral agent. If God made man a free moral agent, then God created within man the propensities for either good or evil which determined his choices. If God made man a free moral agent, He knew beforehand what the result would be, and hence is just as responsible for the consequences of the acts of that free moral agent as He would be for the act of an irresponsible machine that He had made. Man's free moral agency, even if it were true, would by no means clear God from the responsibility of his acts since God is his Creator and has made him in the first place just what he is, well knowing what the result would be. If God's will is ever thwarted, then He is not almighty. If His will is thwarted, then His plans must be changed, and hence He is not all-wise and immutable. If His will is never thwarted, then all things are in accordance with His will and He is the architect of all things as they exist. If He is all-wise and all-good, then all things, existing according to His will, must be working toward some wise and wonderful end! {J Preston Eby}
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here is some more good articles by L Ray Smith.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
CHB
Quote from: Theo Book on March 26, 2010, 11:48:59 AM
One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned.
In short, the direct answer is yes. But I believe it is the nature of the circumstances that causes many of us to have disagreements. Let me ask you a question to get us started in a dialog between You and I about this specifically.
Do you believe that the basic concept might be that if God allows something to happen that in some manner it must have been his will for it to happen?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 26, 2010, 06:07:32 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 26, 2010, 11:48:59 AM
One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned.
In short, the direct answer is yes. But I believe it is the nature of the circumstances that causes many of us to have disagreements. Let me ask you a question to get us started in a dialog between You and I about this specifically.
Do you believe that the basic concept might be that if God allows something to happen that in some manner it must have been his will for it to happen?
That's too vague."might be" "in some manner" "must have been" all seem noncommittal to me. More to the point, if God willed for me to sin, what then is the meaning of James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." It looks to me like God expects something better of me than to yield to temptation and sin. How do you resolve this complexity?
And the concept of saying God expected me to sin, yea, willed it, contrasts with Rom 3:8 "And not rather, as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say, Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just."
To say man sins to accomodate God's grace to me says "Let us sin so God's grace may about; exactly what Paul says is slanderous. What say you?
Jabcat, my friend, with regard to the thread posted by me and locked, please do not hesitate to delete it if it in fact violates board policy. I will not be offended. I simply responded to what I understood to be a request for me to tell "what I believe." And also to cover questions about John's reference to the logos, and Jesus, and beginnings, all of which I tried to incorporate into the thread.
It really has not anything to do with USAL, but then neither does some of the questions that were posted to me, so I thought to respond to them by the invitation.
My ego is covered by the blood of Christ, as i know many here are also. Feel free to dispose of the issue as you will.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 26, 2010, 06:30:16 PM
That's too vague."might be" "in some manner" "must have been" all seem noncommittal to me.
I am being vague because I am not at this point going to debate with you about the meanings of scripture until I have an understanding of how you see things right now.
Let me try to ask again. Do you believe that there is anything that happens that God has not allowed to happen?
Hi
New to the forum and definately believe in the Ultimate Reconsiliation of all to God through the finished work of Christ :thumbsup:
Some He will save By"pulling them out of the Fire, Hating even the garment spotted by the flesh" as Paul states. But none the less they will be saved. Much easier to accept now than later. Better to have his peace now, Why wait. I sometimes have to take my kids to the doctor for a shot-which they hate -but need - but their gonna get it whether they come willingly or kickin and screaming all the way. When they accept its needed it, and Im doing it for their own good - they trust me and its over quickly and much LESS Turmoil.
willieH: Hi Theo... :hithere:
I'm not Paul (obviously!)... but I would like to give you something to think about bro...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 26, 2010, 11:48:59 AM
Paul, I have been following the posts lately instead of being the posts, because I am perplexed by some of what I am reading. Please indicate if I am misapplying what has been said. One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned. Have I misunderstood?
How can something be
IN the Creation of God, and NOT be forthcoming OF HIS WILL? :dunno:
To assign such means that ..."CLAY" generates the shape it becomes (is becoming) via its own propensity! As an observer of nature, ...what "CLAY" has ever been witnessed "shaping itself" (in a good, bad, ugly or beautiful "manner")?
I might volunteer that this whole "Creation" scenario is
being "PROJECTED" (EXPRESSED) by GOD... to include ALL THINGS which occur IN IT -- which actively --
LIVE -- the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...
Like it or not, this observation I offer to you, is made in COMPLETE ALIGNMENT with
Eph 1:11 -- as well as is found in alignment with many other verses which speak of MAN and his "doings", as
being DIRECTED by
YHVH --
Rom 9:21 -- Jer 18:4 -- Prov 16:9 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24 -- Jer 29:14Let me begin by saying that the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL which "man" has come to "know" --
Gen 3:22 -- was
FIRST, ...PRIOR to this EXPRESSION (or "PROJECTION"), ...found EXCLUSIVELY
within the heart of
YHVH God...
Which also means that in order for OUR HEARTS to be as IS HIS... then OUR HEARTS must also contain this "KNOWLEDGE"... otherwise His heart would DIFFER from ours...
GOD
is ALL in ALL... (He does not "need" the manifestation of TIME, which is a "created" entity, in order to
BE -- ANYTHING) GOD is an UNCHANGING being --
Mal 3:6 -- which means that He never, EVER... "becomes" something that He "IS", ...NOT!
Also ...He is ETERNAL which means that "how He
IS", He HAS ALWAYS BEEN ---> IS ---> and ALWAYS WILL BE...
We on the other hand, as we view ourselves within this scenario, are part of a TEMPORAL setting even though we are found within HIM who IS ETERNAL --
Act 17:28 -- and which is UNCHANGING, and which is and remains, PERFECTLY UNALTERED for EVER...
:cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:
All that said... In HOPES to convey (and IN that process answer your question above), ...here is my observation of the Creation of GOD:
The "Creation" has ALWAYS BEEN... but VEILED to ALL... except
YHVH God.
ALL that occurs in this scenario is the
projection (expression) of that which is
IN the Heart of
YHVH...
The knowledge of EVIL is simply the "flipside" of the knowledge of GOOD... TOGETHER they are ONE KNOWLEDGE, ...both are necessary that the other be KNOWN for what the other ...
IS... BOTH are FOREVER EXISTENT, ...WITHIN the Heart of
YHVH God...
This "Creation scenario" is an REVELATION of that KNOWLEDGE of G & E, which has ALWAYS BEEN, IS and ALWAYS WILL BE... IOW the Creation never "came into being" it was VEILED to ALL except
YHVH (within the ETERNAL setting.)
YHVH ...
IS... REVEALING Himself to ALL that is IN HIM, which includes EVERYTHING living WITHIN Him, extensions OF HIM...
This "Creation scenario" will perish from ACTIVITY/practice... but the KNOWLEDGE availed BY IT... forever ...IS... and forever ...WILL BE... and forever ...WAS...
eh? :dontknow:
That FINITE vision to a degree, perishes with ETERNAL REVELATION is also, the basis of ALL KNOWLEDGE...
When the "wheel" became known... those LIVING became LARGER by that knowledge. And MANY things were left behind. Such as CARRYING heavy objects from one place to another, or WALKING long distances... CARRYING did not disappear, neither did WALKING... however, the "dealings" with both were forever ALTERED and ENLARGED, by the REVELATION of the knowledge of the WHEEL.
EVIL as a practice shall FINITELY remain in this TEMPORAL historical document we LIVE and KNOW as TIME... within its "portion" of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD... but it's KNOWLEDGE, shall remain FOREVER as the indicator of PRAISE which is given to the GLORY -- that is known as
LOVE and is named,
YHVH God...
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 26, 2010, 07:30:00 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 26, 2010, 06:30:16 PM
That's too vague."might be" "in some manner" "must have been" all seem noncommittal to me.
I am being vague because I am not at this point going to debate with you about the meanings of scripture until I have an understanding of how you see things right now.
Let me try to ask again. Do you believe that there is anything that happens that God has not allowed to happen?
Different question. o.k.
Response. No. If God does not allow something to happen, it doesn't, didn't, and won't happen. NOTHING overpowers God's rule.
ORIGINAL QUESTION:
QuoteDo you believe that the basic concept might be that if God allows something to happen that in some manner it must have been his will for it to happen?
Many things happen that are not God's will for them to happen. THAT does NOT mean God does not allow some things that are against his will. Sometimes, a parent will allow a child to touch the warm stove, to teach him/her about heat and danger, but it is not the parents will that the child be injured. It was not even the parents will that the child touch the stove, but observation demonstrates the strength of the child's will, and the parent provides for different eventuallities.
God allowed Isreal to disobey his commandments, over and over again, but that did not change either the commandments nor the covenant under which the commandments came. It did change the Israelites relation to God, in that they moved from obedient, to disobedient. They moved from receiving blessings, to receiving curses. That did not change the fact they were God's chosen people.
To me, "will" implies intent. When you say it was God's will, I read "it was God's intent... He willed it to be so." God predestined a class of people to conform to the pattern laid down by his son. He did not say "Willie, and James, and Bob etc. will be saved but John and Ed and Joe will be lost. He said "Whoever believes my son, and is baptized into his death, will receive power to become sons of God. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" Those who denied him, did not receive that power.
I believe I am beginning to see your point on eventual salvation for all souls, but it remains for me to resolve a couple of issues. I do not see yet, where God's enemies are allowed back into the fold. Can you help me resolve this?
Just a quick one here - I'm sure some will add more indepth.
I think of the scriptures about the fullness of times, all things above and on earth being reconciled. Also, the prodigal son, and how it was mostly about the (F)father - his love, long-suffering, acceptance, willingess to forgive and take back in.... :2c:
There'll be more...
Quote from: willieH on March 26, 2010, 09:55:52 PM
willieH: Hi Theo... :hithere:
I'm not Paul (obviously!)... but I would like to give you something to think about bro...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 26, 2010, 11:48:59 AM
Paul, I have been following the posts lately instead of being the posts, because I am perplexed by some of what I am reading. Please indicate if I am misapplying what has been said. One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned. Have I misunderstood?
How can something be IN the Creation of God, and NOT be forthcoming OF HIS WILL? :dunno:
Well, that is the issue isn't it? You say it is God's will that I sin. I deny that. It is not God's will that any man should perish, but that all come to repentance.[II Pet 3:9] It is no longer an issue with me as to the eternallity of the event, but the meaning of the term itself. What is "destroy" if it is only a temporary thing?
I have resolved "eternal" as mistranslation, because I already understood that application in the old covenant, just never considered it in the new. For that teaching, I thank those who have contributed to this thread.
The only issue I have remaining is the meaning and application of the punishment of those who choose to disobey and demean God himself. I am not speaking here of ignorance, nor of temporary insanity, but of planned malicious hatred toward God.
QuoteTo assign such means that ..."CLAY" generates the shape it becomes (is becoming) via its own propensity! As an observer of nature, ...what "CLAY" has ever been witnessed "shaping itself" (in a good, bad, ugly or beautiful "manner")?
Obviously you have never spent any time in a glass-blowers establishment, nor yet a clayworkers factory. There are many instances of works that go wrong in the makiing, not according to the intent of the designer. It all has to do with time and circumstance, design and design flaws incorporated in new patterns. Some work, some do not. And even some will work and some not within the parameters of a new pattern. Time and circumstance happens to them all.
Watch and see how it is the clay disobeys God's will. AND it is only AFTER the clay becomes evil in behaviour, that God determiones to destroy it. He did not make some pots evil and some good, he made them all and watched to see how they would turn out. Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
QuoteI might volunteer that this whole "Creation" scenario is being "PROJECTED" (EXPRESSED) by GOD... to include ALL THINGS which occur IN IT -- which actively -- LIVE -- the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...
Like it or not, this observation I offer to you, is made in COMPLETE ALIGNMENT with Eph 1:11 -- as well as is found in alignment with many other verses which speak of MAN and his "doings", as being DIRECTED by YHVH -- Rom 9:21 -- Jer 18:4 -- Prov 16:9 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24 -- Jer 29:14
Sure, all you have to do is ignore those verses IN THE SAME CONTEXT that do not agree with your position.
Look, you say people only do what God wills. God says different. God makes his will known through his commandments. Jer 29:23 "Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the LORD."
When you do a word search on the word "will" you only get a part of the doctrine of scripture. Try doing a wordsearch on "would not" which means "did not will to..." or "willed to not do."
Deuteronomy 1:26 "Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:"
Was the "commandment of the Lord" an expression of his will? They rebelled against it. Is God of two minds? Is he trying to deceive his people? I think not.
Deuteronomy 1:43 "So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill."
Deuteronomy 8:20 "As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God."
Isaiah 30:15 "For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not."
Jeremiah 29:19 "Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD."
Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
I firmly believe, after studying with this group, that all souls will eventually return to God in sweet rapport; I firmly disagree that God's will is always done. I do believe that his will is going to be the final authority, but I do not believe his will is being carried out daily by men. There is a great difference between his will for man's daily behaviour, and his ultimate goal of salvation. And I in no way believe it is God's will that we sin so he can bless us. "Let us do evil that good may come" is a slander against God, according to Paul, yet that is what that doctrine expresses.
QuoteLet me begin by saying that the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL which "man" has come to "know" -- Gen 3:22 -- was FIRST, ...PRIOR to this EXPRESSION (or "PROJECTION"), ...found EXCLUSIVELY within the heart of YHVH God...
Which also means that in order for OUR HEARTS to be as IS HIS... then OUR HEARTS must also contain this "KNOWLEDGE"... otherwise His heart would DIFFER from ours...
I think you are confusing the content of the heart for the container which IS the heart. David was assessed by God as "a man after my own heart" yet David certainly does not have the knowledge God possesses, in his heart.
QuoteGOD is ALL in ALL... (He does not "need" the manifestation of TIME, which is a "created" entity, in order to BE -- ANYTHING) GOD is an UNCHANGING being -- Mal 3:6 -- which means that He never, EVER... "becomes" something that He "IS", ...NOT!
God did not create time. He created those heavenly bodies by which man measures time, but it is not the same thing. "Be" is a verb expressing activity in time. For God to "be" requires time. Time has been around as long as God has been around, for God to "be" in existence. When God told Moses, "I am the being" he made no reference to creation of time, nor did he in the beginning create time; there is no reference in all of scripture to God creating time. And he is subject to time, by his covenant relations with men. It was God who introduced feast days, sabbaths, and holy days, all related to time; Jubillee sabbath, every forty nine years + one; fiftieth year after seven cycles of seven years. It was God who explained a day as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. God is very cognizant of the significance of time in the mind and heart of man.
QuoteAlso ...He is ETERNAL which means that "how He IS", He HAS ALWAYS BEEN ---> IS ---> and ALWAYS WILL BE...
We on the other hand, as we view ourselves within this scenario, are part of a TEMPORAL setting even though we are found within HIM who IS ETERNAL --
Act 17:28 -- and which is UNCHANGING, and which is and remains, PERFECTLY UNALTERED for EVER...[/quote]
Agreed!
QuoteAll that said... In HOPES to convey (and IN that process answer your question above), ...here is my observation of the Creation of GOD:
The "Creation" has ALWAYS BEEN... but VEILED to ALL... except YHVH God.
ALL that occurs in this scenario is the projection (expression) of that which is IN the Heart of YHVH...
In which case, there was no "In the beginning God created." It was all a ruse to get man to behave by sinning. Nah... don't think so.
QuoteThe knowledge of EVIL is simply the "flipside" of the knowledge of GOOD... TOGETHER they are ONE KNOWLEDGE, ...both are necessary that the other be KNOWN for what the other ...IS... BOTH are FOREVER EXISTENT, ...WITHIN the Heart of YHVH God...
This "Creation scenario" is an REVELATION of that KNOWLEDGE of G & E, which has ALWAYS BEEN, IS and ALWAYS WILL BE... IOW the Creation never "came into being" it was VEILED to ALL except YHVH (within the ETERNAL setting.)
No such scene is depicted in all of scripture. Enlighten me.
Quote
YHVH ...IS... REVEALING Himself to ALL that is IN HIM, which includes EVERYTHING living WITHIN Him, extensions OF HIM...
This "Creation scenario" will perish from ACTIVITY/practice... but the KNOWLEDGE availed BY IT... forever ...IS... and forever ...WILL BE... and forever ...WAS...
eh? :dontknow:
That FINITE vision to a degree, perishes with ETERNAL REVELATION is also, the basis of ALL KNOWLEDGE...
What is the scope of "eternal revelation?" Do you mean the revelation about eternal things, or do you mean a revelation that eternally goes on?
QuoteWhen the "wheel" became known... those LIVING became LARGER by that knowledge. And MANY things were left behind. Such as CARRYING heavy objects from one place to another, or WALKING long distances... CARRYING did not disappear, neither did WALKING... however, the "dealings" with both were forever ALTERED and ENLARGED, by the REVELATION of the knowledge of the WHEEL.
EVIL as a practice shall FINITELY remain in this TEMPORAL historical document we LIVE and KNOW as TIME... within its "portion" of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD... but it's KNOWLEDGE, shall remain FOREVER as the indicator of PRAISE which is given to the GLORY -- that is known as LOVE and is named, YHVH God...
...willieH :HeartThrob:
All you need now is to produce scripture that teaches that. I'm in listening mode. Try me.
I agree with much of what you've said in your last post, and I think much of this particular piece of things is "debatable" and can get "really hot". That's why we're careful with it here. Even within UR believers, there is quite a bit of variance in understanding as to how God will eventually reconcile all, yet still a belief that it will happen.
By the way...I see you said you believe all will eventually be reconciled to God. Praise the Lord!
You may not have been able/ready to hear it at the time, but awhile back I believe I said to you that I believe the evil works will be burned away, so the spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord. God gave the spirit, and it returns to Him. There may not be much if ANYTHING left of, say Hitler, except the spirit God gave. That's the way I see it. That whatever "makes it through the fire" will bow and confess IN the Holy Spirit that Jesus is Master. Also, that however much we may struggle about the "wills" issue, that God sets the conditions for every knee to bow, and that He will ultimately get His way. Example of the prodigal son...I would say God allowed for/set those conditions within His overall plan and will, that the prodigal, through his choices of disobedience, would end up somewhere he didn't want to be, reaping what he'd sown, and meeting his end in "destruction" so to speak. So that he returned (actually was brought back :bigGrin:) to the Father [father].
Hope that helps some...James.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 12:26:36 AM
Different question. o.k.
Response. No. If God does not allow something to happen, it doesn't, didn't, and won't happen. NOTHING overpowers God's rule.
Thank you for answering and bearing with me here. I will try to help you with your request, that is why I am asking these questions. How do you reconcile the idea that if anything that happens is because God allowed it but because he allowed it that is not saying he intended for it to happen?
Just for an example. From our perspective if God planned creation and seen that a persons life ended up in an eternal place of torment, what would it be called other than intent if God went ahead and set that in motion?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 27, 2010, 02:02:45 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 12:26:36 AM
Different question. o.k.
Response. No. If God does not allow something to happen, it doesn't, didn't, and won't happen. NOTHING overpowers God's rule.
Thank you for answering and bearing with me here. I will try to help you with your request, that is why I am asking these questions. How do you reconcile the idea that if anything that happens is because God allowed it but because he allowed it that is not saying he intended for it to happen?
Just for an example. From our perspective if God planned creation and seen that a persons life ended up in an eternal place of torment, what would it be called other than intent if God went ahead and set that in motion?
It was God who inspired men to use the example of parents and children, when he expressed how it is God punishes those whom he loves. He in effect, had us testifying against ourselves, if we expressed unfairness in God for punishing us. (Of course, that would be before we knew better).
But God expressed the example of how a parent chastens his son betimes. Not because he hates him but expressly because he loves him. So also God chastens his children. But in the same way a parent will let a child go who is stubborn and set in his way, after that child reaches his majority, the parent no longer can express what he thinks in the same fashion he could when that child was under the parents jurisdiction.
THAT fact is what was expressed by God when he said that the children of Israel would perish in the desert, twenty years of age and up. Because under twenty, were under their parents law, and could not determine for themselves. After twenty years of age, they were responsible for their own decisions, and ultimately consequences of those decisions.
We can teach out child all we think we know about God, he will discover some of it is true, for himself, and will make other discoveries that we never considered, and God will bless him in his search for truth. BUT, if he loses his way for whatever reason, how can we blame God who provided us with not only every blessing, but with grace and opportunity to seek him out? It becomes our own will to love God or hate him, but God did not predetermin some to hat ehim. He predetermined that some who would not believ his son would eventually hate him, and that is what I understand to be the methodology of predetermination. "He that believeth" takes on a meaning that has consequences.
Does that make sense, or am I rambling?
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."
peacemaker
willieH: Hi Theo... :hithere:
I will address this answer of yours in a few posts due to the length that shall be required... :wink3:
Quote from: willieH on March 26, 2010, 09:55:52 PM
willieH: Hi Theo... :hithere:
I'm not Paul (obviously!)... but I would like to give you something to think about bro...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 26, 2010, 11:48:59 AM
Paul, I have been following the posts lately instead of being the posts, because I am perplexed by some of what I am reading. Please indicate if I am misapplying what has been said. One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned. Have I misunderstood?
How can something be IN the Creation of God, and NOT be forthcoming OF HIS WILL? :dunno:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMWell, that is the issue isn't it? You say it is God's will that I sin. I deny that. It is not God's will that any man should perish, but that all come to repentance.[II Pet 3:9] It is no longer an issue with me as to the eternallity of the event, but the meaning of the term itself. What is "destroy" if it is only a temporary thing?
Theo... the commonly used Greek word "DESTROY" ("perish in
2 Pet 3:9) -- is
APOLLUMI, which was the condition of the LOST [apollumi/destroyed] SON... destruction IS temporary... for the issue of being LOST is an issue of DESTRUCTION when PERFECTION is considered by the observer.
The Parables of the LOST COIN, LOST SHEEP and LOST SON ...ALL... use the word APOLLUMI... in ALL cases destruction which is implied by the use of the word Apollumi is NOT PERMANENT... the COIN and SHEEP were both FOUND... (therefore NOT LOST) and the LOST SON, returned Home from destruction (therefore NOT DESTROYED nor LOST)
One who is LOST/destroyed/apollumi, is one which is OTHER than in a state of PERFECTION [which means COMPLETE]... but Scripture demonstrates parabolicly that this is NOT a permanent state.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMI have resolved "eternal" as mistranslation, because I already understood that application in the old covenant, just never considered it in the new. For that teaching, I thank those who have contributed to this thread.
The only issue I have remaining is the meaning and application of the punishment of those who choose to disobey and demean God himself. I am not speaking here of ignorance, nor of temporary insanity, but of planned malicious hatred toward God.
Okay Theo... WHO "seeks after God"?
Rom 3:10-13 -- Psalm 14:1-3If we are not "seeking" after Him, (coming to the light) OF OURSELVES... then we are, OF OURSELVES found, ...HATING the LIGHT... which is
why YHVH must DRAG each one to the
WORD --
John 6:44 -- (one dragged is not coming willingly)... and even then the journey is not yet complete, ...for the
WORD must then, REVEAL the Father to them --
John 14:6For coming to it causes men EXPOSURE of the actual state they are IN...
As far as "Planned malicious hatred"... it is DECLARED we shall be DESPARATELY WICKED of HEART... what else can a DESPARATELY WICKED HEART ...Plan, bro?
Quote from: willieHTo assign such means that ..."CLAY" generates the shape it becomes (is becoming) via its own propensity! As an observer of nature, ...what "CLAY" has ever been witnessed "shaping itself" (in a good, bad, ugly or beautiful "manner")?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMObviously you have never spent any time in a glass-blowers establishment, nor yet a clayworkers factory. There are many instances of works that go wrong in the makiing, not according to the intent of the designer.
Though I am not a maker of things made from CLAY, you assume incorrectly...
I have experienced working CLAY, in my education... and can testify that CLAY (of itself) is inert, inanimate, and aside from its ingredients, ...its only NATURAL trait is RESISTANCE.
Your answer, did
NOT ADDRESS what I asked you... Have you EVER witnessed CLAY -- SHAPING ITSELF? :dontknow: In ANY "manner"?
Because the NATURE of "CLAY" is RESISTENT, does not mean that said RESISTENCE is emergent of an
INTENT of the CLAY... It is merely NATURALLY resistant, for HE which CREATED the CLAY, also CREATED its inherent feature of RESISTANCE.
Not of its "PLANNED MALICIOUS HATRED" of the POTTER, but of its NATURE, which was INTENDED of the POTTER which made it as well as SHAPES it.
Your reference to a "designer" in a CLAY factory is insufficient in this... for said "designer" is a mere human being who is NOT the designer (creator) OF the CLAY itself... he is only the RESHAPER of it.
I'll continue in the next post, and give you and opportunity to try to ANSWER what I asked you...
Since you seem to consider yourself an observer of CLAY... have you ever witnessed it SHAPING ITSELF? (Btw... Please don't cite, wet clay "falling apart", for this is not of an inherent "intent", it is simply the CLAY submitting to external affecting elements or laws such as water, and/or gravity)
...willieH :HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi Theo... :cloud9:
Continuing:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMIt all has to do with time and circumstance, design and design flaws incorporated in new patterns. Some work, some do not. And even some will work and some not within the parameters of a new pattern. Time and circumstance happens to them all.
Watch and see how it is the clay disobeys God's will. AND it is only AFTER the clay becomes evil in behaviour, that God determiones to destroy it. He did not make some pots evil and some good, he made them all and watched to see how they would turn out. Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
Your attempt to avoid what is stated is shown in your own "contextual" report:
6 "AS the CLAY is in the potter's hand [which noted being MARRED in the hand of said potter]... so ARE YE --- IN MINE HAND, ...O house of ISRAEL..."YHVH is noting an example of CLAY to the hearer... which notes that ALL of its shaping, good or bad, is done by the exampled potter, ...and in the VERY SAME WAY ["AS"] ...ALL of said SHAPING and RESHAPING of ISRAEL [God's people] is done BY the hand of the POTTER... to include the "MARRING" and the "REMAKING" of the "marred clay".
I personally do not see how you cannot see this brother Theo... :mshock:
Quote from: willieHI might volunteer that this whole "Creation" scenario is being "PROJECTED" (EXPRESSED) by GOD... to include ALL THINGS which occur IN IT -- which actively -- LIVE -- the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...
Like it or not, this observation I offer to you, is made in COMPLETE ALIGNMENT with Eph 1:11 -- as well as is found in alignment with many other verses which speak of MAN and his "doings", as being DIRECTED by YHVH -- Rom 9:21 -- Jer 18:4 -- Prov 16:9 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24 -- Jer 29:14
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMSure, all you have to do is ignore those verses IN THE SAME CONTEXT that do not agree with your position.
In what way are they ignored Theo?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMLook, you say people only do what God wills. God says different. God makes his will known through his commandments. Jer 29:23 "Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the LORD."
It is YOU which IGNORE that prior to this statement in
Jer 29:23 --
YHVH had just PREVIOUSLY noted that it was HE that DROVE these
into this state!
He did NOT command them to do these things, He COMMANDED them to do otherwise, ...however... HE DECLARED (before a breath was taken by ANY MAN --
Isaiah 46:10 -- that they
would DO these things AGAINST His command, and that HE would also, ...deliver them FROM these things...
He CONCLUDED men in UNBELIEF --
Rom 11:32 -- He DROVE men into CAPTIVITY...
Let me ask you a few questions Theo...
(1) Is
YHVH a DELIVERER?
(2) Is this an ETERNAL designation?
(3) How can He DELIVER when there are none to DELIVER?
Apart from ordaining men to enter into UNBELIEF, because He created "choice" in the supposedly "perfect man" He created... what happens to His eternal designation as an UNCHANGING DELIVERER, if that "choosing" was PERFECT?
How could He DELIVER and thereby BE a DELIVERER, when there is nothing and no one to DELIVER?
IMO -- Christianity utilizes FAR too much vanity in its observance of itself... thinking that IT is the chooser of ITS own destiny... (Heaven or Hell)... and that GOD is standing helplessly by as the WORLD He so (ETERNALLY) LOVES... mostly "sends itself" to "hell"... :rolleye:
If it is as you (and most of Christianity) believes... that THEY chose their SIN... and God never intended it to be so... This position only decreases
YHVH, by reducing Him to a "tinkering" scientist that is unable to create a PERFECT entity which is PERFECT, as He is... because He gave the man "choice" and then, ...OOPS! The whole she-bang goes down the drain! :mshock:
To conclude that
YHVH who is ALMIGHTY, to be almost TOTALLY upended and confounded, by the dumb CLAY? You are welcome to swallow this bro... I ain't buyin' it! :mnah:
To teach others that EVIL wins (the MAJORITY) and GOOD loses (reclaiming only a paltry few)? Is NOT "good news"...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMWhen you do a word search on the word "will" you only get a part of the doctrine of scripture. Try doing a wordsearch on "would not" which means "did not will to..." or "willed to not do."
Deuteronomy 1:26 "Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:"
Was the "commandment of the Lord" an expression of his will? They rebelled against it. Is God of two minds? Is he trying to deceive his people? I think not.
Of course He is
not... however, you fail to recognize that BOTH EVIL and GOOD are GOD's KNOWLEDGE... and as do most of Christianity, you separate this [knowledge of EVIL] from Him and from GOOD, ...UNBIBILCALLY...
Again... I remind you that if you are a true follower of
YHVH... and His Son
JESUS CHRIST... then you are compelled to BELIEVE... What does this verse say to YOU, Theo? ---
Eph 1:11 -- does this verse DISINCLUDE Him from ...ANY "THING"?
I believe as are many, that you are cornered by your own historical theology, which finds itself imprisoned in a quandary from the very BEGINNING... in which it PURPORTS that Adam & Eve were created "PERFECT", and that they "chose" "IMPERFECTLY" -- and such is an arguement against itself.
How could something PERFECT, do something IMPERFECT? :mshock:
GOD is PERFECT according to the Scriptures... will HE make IMPERFECT "choices" in the ETERNAL setting, Theo?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMDeuteronomy 1:43 "So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill."
Deuteronomy 8:20 "As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God."
Isaiah 30:15 "For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not."
Jeremiah 29:19 "Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD."
Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
I firmly believe, after studying with this group, that all souls will eventually return to God in sweet rapport; I firmly disagree that God's will is always done.
FIRST --- I am glad of heart to hear you say that ALL SOULS will eventually return to GOD...
SECOND I find flaw in the second portion of your statement --- "Firm" as in what? ..."in THIS moment"?
Do you think you have nothing further to LEARN about this subject, Theo? That you would state that -- you "firmly" disagree that the WILL of GOD is not always done? Do you hereby note this position is UNMOVEABLE?
Well, you have already demonstrated by the first portion of your statement, that the position you held coming here, has been enlarged to "ALL SOULS" returning to GOD... What makes you so sure, that your second portion is "FIRMLY"
not in need of the same kind of "enlargement"?
In your "FIRM" position, GOD is therefore in your eyes... "FIRMLY" ...imperfect... for He has a WILL --- which brought forth IMPERFECTION via His OWN HAND, in Creating this scenario... :sigh:
If indeed He were PERFECT (and BE IT KNOWN, that I believe that He IS), ...and IMPERFECTION were NOT part of the plan and upon the agenda of PERFECTION... then His "plan" was IMPERFECT, ...for IMPERFECTION arose within His "plan"...
And we still have
Eph 1:11 to deal with... :dontknow:
I'll pause here a moment, and continue later...
:Peace:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi Theo...
And more...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AM
I do believe that his will is going to be the final authority, but I do not believe his will is being carried out daily by men. There is a great difference between his will for man's daily behaviour, and his ultimate goal of salvation. And I in no way believe it is God's will that we sin so he can bless us. "Let us do evil that good may come" is a slander against God, according to Paul, yet that is what that doctrine expresses.
I do not ever intend to slander GOD... but we cannot avoid what is said in --
Eph 1:11 -- nor can we sidestep that those THINGS which were "NOT DONE" as DISINCLUDING ALL EVIL deeds... ALL DEEDS yet to be DONE, were DECLARED to be DONE, by
YHVH to BE DONE --
Isaiah 46:10 -- without regard to their "GOOD or EVIL"...
GOD does not RECOMMEND/COMMAND we DO EVIL... but He has
DECLARED that we shall... by HIS
WORD... and His
WORD never changes... so whatever is stated in HIS
WORD, shall come to PASS...
Again,
CHRIST was slain (past tense/already in place)
BEFORE ...ANY MAN... needed His REDEEMING sacrifice --
Rev 13:8 -- This is a CLEAR statement that a SACRIFICE was already IN PLACE before the doings of MAN within TIME, demanded the need for it.
Quote from: willieHLet me begin by saying that the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL which "man" has come to "know" -- Gen 3:22 -- was FIRST, ...PRIOR to this EXPRESSION (or "PROJECTION"), ...found EXCLUSIVELY within the heart of YHVH God...
Which also means that in order for OUR HEARTS to be as IS HIS... then OUR HEARTS must also contain this "KNOWLEDGE"... otherwise His heart would DIFFER from ours...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMI think you are confusing the content of the heart for the container which IS the heart. David was assessed by God as "a man after my own heart" yet David certainly does not have the knowledge God possesses, in his heart.
And that quote does NOT in any way try to say that DAVID had the knowledge GOD possesses... You are stretching things to accomodate your thinking bro...
The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is not just each individual choosing between the two... Is THAT what you think, Theo?
The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is the ETERNAL and COMPLETE TOTAL of ALL of BOTH... Try and swallow that one, dude!
GOD ...IS... ALL in ALL, in the ETERNAL setting. Which means ALL of HIM is within ALL of US... We are a TEMPLE collectively... which shares the PRESENCE of
YHVH God... and IN WHICH the COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL (in the ETERNAL setting) ...IS...
Quote from: willieHGOD is ALL in ALL... (He does not "need" the manifestation of TIME, which is a "created" entity, in order to BE -- ANYTHING) GOD is an UNCHANGING being -- Mal 3:6 -- which means that He never, EVER... "becomes" something that He "IS", ...NOT!
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMGod did not create time. He created those heavenly bodies by which man measures time, but it is not the same thing.
Of course it is Theo...
I beg to differ... TIME is measured by DAYS (which contain seconds, minutes and hours, each which BEGIN and END)...
TIME is also noted as having a BEGINNING... and shall have an END...
Rev 10:6TIME was created BEFORE ANY "HEAVENLY BODIES" were available to be used to measure it...
Gen 1:14-19 -- The Sun, Moon and Stars (heavenly bodies) were not even created until the FOURTH DAY... which means that THREE DAYS were measured, containing EVENING and MORNING, ...WITHOUT the "heavenly bodies" available to make measurement of an EVENING or MORNING...
Not only that but
CHRIST noted... are there not TWELVE HOURS [time] in a DAY? --
John 11:9 -- what are HOURS, Theo? But a measurement of TIME... as noted
BY CHRIST -- :dontknow:
PETER and JOHN noted that they were in the LAST "TIME" --
1 Pet 1:20 -- 1 John 2:18PAUL also noted --
Eph 1:10 -- of the FULLNESS of TIME... How can something which is EVER ON GOING, ever be FULL?
If TIME were as you propose, there could be NO "LAST TIME" or "TIMES" possible... otherwise, GOD whom YOU maintain NEEDS TIME to exist... would be WITHOUT IT! And thereby CEASE to "BE"... :mnah:
TIME is noted within
SEASONS (which have beginnings and endings) as Ecclesiastes, so poetically notes --
Ecc 3:1-17TIME was
NOT, before the
FIRST DAY... and shall
NOT BE past the
LAST DAY --
John 6:44 -- John 12:48 ETERNITY "being" on either side of this TEMPORAL PLANE.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AM"Be" is a verb expressing activity in time. For God to "be" requires time.
Sorry, but GOD does not "require" ANYTHING, to ...BE... He ...IS... and that He IS ...is without BEGINNING or ENDING... both of which are parameters (boundaries) of, "TIME"...
You are welcome to maintain the illusion that TIME (which you and I experience and can measure) is something that is ETERNAL... and try to use said FINITE observation to determine INFINITE essence, ...but in the end, it is as futile as trying to see HOW LONG 10 gallons of water are... or HOW HIGH the Sky is from the Earth... or HOW much LOVE can be inserted in a 10 gallon bottle... Or how many Angels can stand on the head of a pin...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMTime has been around as long as God has been around, for God to "be" in existence.
How can that be, Theo? GOD has
not "been around a -- long time", for the words "AS LONG AS" implies an emergent point... a beginning. GOD has NO BEGINNING, for He has ALWAYS BEEN...
You and I cannot comprehend what existence is without TIME, for we are imprisoned by it and within it... GOD and HIS EXISTENCE is not IN TIME, it SURROUNDS it.
I'll take another break here... :heat:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 02:15:37 AM
but God did not predetermin some to hate him.
Does that make sense, or am I rambling?
I understand what your saying. human analogies do not address a soveriegn God who set everything in motion. I have two sons, but I did not create the universe and set things in motion knowing what would happen in the end.
From my perspective, I would not create a being that I could not save for any reason.
Would you? And if a mere human would not and Gods love is unimaginably greater, can we actually see fit to rationalize creating one knowing it would suffer for eternity with no hope as Love?
I'm not arguing scripture at all yet, because I think too many times we will squabble over decades of religion rather than matters of the heart.
So, mainly what I am getting at, is if the Character of God you know deep down matches such a thought?
willieH: Hi TB... :lazy:
Okay, ...I'll try and finish up here...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMWhen God told Moses, "I am the being" he made no reference to creation of time, nor did he in the beginning create time; there is no reference in all of scripture to God creating time. And he is subject to time, by his covenant relations with men.
Disagree... MAN is subject to GOD, not the other way around... Neither is GOD subject to ANYTHING -- Including TIME
As I have already noted that
CHRIST Himself broke down "DAYS" (which have not only individual beginning and end, but COLLECTIVE beginning and end) as having 12 HOURS... which is the MEASUREMENT of them... all of which have beginnings and endings... Enough about that. You are welcome to think whatever you like...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMIt was God who introduced feast days, sabbaths, and holy days, all related to time; Jubillee sabbath, every forty nine years + one; fiftieth year after seven cycles of seven years. It was God who explained a day as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. God is very cognizant of the significance of time in the mind and heart of man.
More of the same... the mind and heart of man are TEMPORAL and have been placed in a TEMPORAL setting [time], as a vapor which appeareth for a SHORT
TIME, then vanisheth AWAY... beginning & end...
That GOD has placed us in a scenario (time) which is SEPARATED from the ETERNAL, and which is IN MOTION and thereby ALL within it, including IT, is CONTINUALLY CHANGING... is evidence of its OPPOSITION to the ETERNAL... which is UNCHANGING and at PEACE... which opposes the IMMENSE quantity of TURMOIL amidst "TIME".
TIME is the OPPOSITE of ETERNITY, but then again, you aren't buying that areya? Don't care.
Quote from: willieHAlso ...He is ETERNAL which means that "how He IS", He HAS ALWAYS BEEN ---> IS ---> and ALWAYS WILL BE...
We on the other hand, as we view ourselves within this scenario, are part of a TEMPORAL setting even though we are found within HIM who IS ETERNAL -- Act 17:28 -- and which is UNCHANGING, and which is and remains, PERFECTLY UNALTERED for EVER...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMAgreed!
Well ...BLOW ME DOWN! :omg:
Quote from: willieHAll that said... In HOPES to convey (and IN that process answer your question above), ...here is my observation of the Creation of GOD:
The "Creation" has ALWAYS BEEN... but VEILED to ALL... except YHVH God.
ALL that occurs in this scenario is the projection (expression) of that which is IN the Heart of YHVH...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMIn which case, there was no "In the beginning God created." It was all a ruse to get man to behave by sinning. Nah... don't think so.
FIRST -- "In the "BEGINNING" ...was the emergent point of ALL THINGS ...WHICH HAVE... Beginnings and endings... including TIME and ALL within its grasp...
CHRIST, who HAS NO BEGINNING or ENDING, ...IS... the Alpha and Omega of ALL THINGS which
DO have them...
SECOND -- No "ruse" at all, only PURPOSE, if GOD should choose you to SEE IT... the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOD, REVEALED before ALL, utilizing His CHILDREN within the LIVING realization of that REVELATION...
God did not ordain this as a method to "rehabilitate" men... He is REVEALING Himself before ALL... that He
be ALL in ALL... You are just too involved in the complexities of your theology to see the simplicity of it all.
GOOD and EVIL is not about "SINNING", Theo... it is about the REVELATION of WHAT OCCURS when the COMMAND of GOD (which is HOLY, PERFECT and PURE)... is OPPOSED... and the LOSS, SORROW, PAIN and DEATH that results in the MANIFESTATION of that OPPOSITION...
Quote from: willieHThe knowledge of EVIL is simply the "flipside" of the knowledge of GOOD... TOGETHER they are ONE KNOWLEDGE, ...both are necessary that the other be KNOWN for what the other ...IS... BOTH are FOREVER EXISTENT, ...WITHIN the Heart of YHVH God...
This "Creation scenario" is an REVELATION of that KNOWLEDGE of G & E, which has ALWAYS BEEN, IS and ALWAYS WILL BE... IOW the Creation never "came into being" it was VEILED to ALL except YHVH (within the ETERNAL setting.)
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMNo such scene is depicted in all of scripture. Enlighten me.
Do you really wish enlightenment brother? Or was that just the smug comment of one who will ignore?
Oh but it IS... all you need to do is open the eyes of your heart, ....matter of fact an ENTIRE BOOK of the Scripture is DEDICATED to it!
It is PLAINLY and CLEARLY there... will you listen, brother Theo? Do you "got yer ears on?" Or will you refuse to see or hear, as did the Pharisees of old?
The REVELATION of
JESUS CHRIST ...
IS... the OUTWARD EXPRESSION of the
WORD of GOD, which is within HIS HEART...
Here comes the part, you will likely "ignore":
ALL things that were "MADE" were "MADE" by the
WORD --
Col 1:16 -- John 1:3 -- which IS an UNCHANGING entity --
Heb 13:8 -- and which manifest them by REVEALING their presence found WITHIN the
WORD of GOD!
That the
WORD is UNCHANGING, means that whatever EXTENDS from
IT ("made" by IT"), is also UNCHANGING... otherwise the
WORD is NOT the same, yesterday, today and forever, for EXTENSIONS of IT... are CHANGEABLE.
You will likely balk at what I just said, because you believe that YOU choose your own WAY (with "free will")... and I on the other hand, KNOW that we walk a pathway which is SET BEFORE US... and NOT ONE MOMENT of that journey shall CHANGE from what the
WORD DECLARED of it before a step of it was taken! --
Isaiah 46:10 -- believe what you will...
Where is
your "word", Theo? In your shoe? Behind the garage? On the moon? In a safe deposit box at the bank?
Or is it IN YOUR :HeartThrob:? Is your "word", TRULY YOU? When expressed, does it contain WHO you are? What you think? What you like and dont like? Of course it does! (or at least, it should)
And when YOU reveal IT, those HEARING, then become AWARE of many things that were
ALWAYS there within YOU, ...just WORDS which were yet, UNSPOKEN by
YOU... :dontknow:
Well... GOD's
WORD is found amidst
HIS HEART, and the expression of HIS HEART contains ALL and more (as compared to you or I), ...concerning what "He likes and doesn't like... What He "thinks"... and WHO He truly ...IS... (which is
LOVE)
ALL these were
ALWAYS [forever] within the Heart of
YHVH, just UNREVEALED... unexpressed until the WORD was SPOKEN from His HEART, ...REVEALING that Heart in the presence of the HEARERS...
Quote from: willieHYHVH ...IS... REVEALING Himself to ALL that is IN HIM, which includes EVERYTHING living WITHIN Him, extensions OF HIM...
This "Creation scenario" will perish from ACTIVITY/practice... but the KNOWLEDGE availed BY IT... forever ...IS... and forever ...WILL BE... and forever ...WAS...
eh? :dontknow:
That FINITE vision to a degree, perishes with ETERNAL REVELATION is also, the basis of ALL KNOWLEDGE...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMWhat is the scope of "eternal revelation?" Do you mean the revelation about eternal things, or do you mean a revelation that eternally goes on?
FIRST -- the "ETERNAL" does NOT "go-on"... it ALWAYS
IS.
You, as do many Christians, ...use FINITE terminology (a "from now-on" ETERNITY) and expect that this defines the INFINITE... which is like the blind man, using "his eyes", endeavoring to describe the design on my shirt.
SECOND -- "ETERNAL REVELATION" is that which HAS ALWAYS BEEN, (amidst the HEART of GOD) made known... which is the KNOWLEDGE of
YHVH God, ...which contains GOOD and EVIL... imparted to MAN, that the CHILDREN of GOD, be AS ...IS... He, having that KNOWLEDGE...
Quote from: willieHWhen the "wheel" became known... those LIVING became LARGER by that knowledge. And MANY things were left behind. Such as CARRYING heavy objects from one place to another, or WALKING long distances... CARRYING did not disappear, neither did WALKING... however, the "dealings" with both were forever ALTERED and ENLARGED, by the REVELATION of the knowledge of the WHEEL.
EVIL as a practice shall FINITELY remain in this TEMPORAL historical document we LIVE and KNOW as TIME... within its "portion" of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD... but it's KNOWLEDGE, shall remain FOREVER as the indicator of PRAISE which is given to the GLORY -- that is known as LOVE and is named, YHVH God...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMAll you need now is to produce scripture that teaches that. I'm in listening mode. Try me.
Are you really bro? If you
are, then this question has already been answered hasn't it? I have already extensively shown the Scripture, ...Or were you not listening? :JCThink:
I hope you were! :friendstu:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Hi Theo.
Let me start that thoughts below sometimes feel like a contradiction to me. But still it's how I understand them.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 12:26:36 AM
No. If God does not allow something to happen, it doesn't, didn't, and won't happen. NOTHING overpowers God's rule.
I take the liberty to summarize that as: Noting that happens on earth is against God's will.
Quote from: Theo BookMany things happen that are not God's will for them to happen.
That contradicts your above statement.
Quote from: Theo BookTHAT does NOT mean God does not allow some things that are against his will.
So God has an unbendable will but still He for some reason allows that will to be temporarily overruled. Unlike earthly parents God has the power to stop every breaking of the rules but He doesn't. For me that leads to two possible conclusions:
a] God's will was overruled and He could not stop it.
b] God's will was not overruled. Everything what we see as bending/overruling etc was/is His will.
For me it's simple. Some things simply are not compatible. First state God has 100% complete control and absolutely everything is according to His will. But when things start to look bad (sinful things) we have to get God of the hook and suddenly say humankind broke Gods control. 100% control isn't 100% if has been broken a zillion times during mankinds history.
Quote from: Theo BookSometimes, a parent will allow a child to touch the warm stove, to teach him/her about heat and danger, but it is not the parents will that the child be injured. It was not even the parents will that the child touch the stove, but observation demonstrates the strength of the child's will, and the parent provides for different eventuallities.
A very good example Theo. Replace a few words now. Parent=God. Stove=Sin. Touch=sinning.
God is teaching us. Teaching is giving knowledge.
Quote from: Theo BookGod allowed Isreal to disobey his commandments, over and over again, but that did not change either the commandments nor the covenant under which the commandments came.
It did change the Israelites relation to God, in that they moved from obedient, to disobedient. They moved from receiving blessings, to receiving curses. That did not change the fact they were God's chosen people.
Were the Israelites overstepping Gods will? Or did God just allow the Israelites to touch the stove?
Quote from: Theo BookTo me, "will" implies intent. When you say it was God's will, I read "it was God's intent... He willed it to be so." God predestined a class of people to conform to the pattern laid down by his son. He did not say "Willie, and James, and Bob etc. will be saved but John and Ed and Joe will be lost. He said "Whoever believes my son, and is baptized into his death, will receive power to become sons of God. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" Those who denied him, did not receive that power.
I agree will=intend. Human will is limited by zillions of human limitations. God has no such limitations.
Human: Will=I would like it if I could make it happen.
God: Will=I can state as a 100% fact it will happen to the smallest detail.
QuoteI believe I am beginning to see your point on eventual salvation for all souls, but it remains for me to resolve a couple of issues. I do not see yet, where God's enemies are allowed back into the fold. Can you help me resolve this?
I think the answer is not found in a single verse. Are there verses that state that all chances of Father's grace end at death? Are there verses that indicate the little verse list below ends at death? Usally the answer would be yes. But the Bible is a book that's about life after death. So we should see verses in that light.
:2c:
Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.
==> This is not only for this lifetime... Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change....
Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.
Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
1 Corinthians 13:8 The love doth never fail.
Chronicles 16:34 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
Lamentations 3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Micah 7:18-19 .... he does not keep his wrath for ever, because his delight is in mercy....He will again have pity on us
2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AM
The only issue I have remaining is the meaning and application of the punishment of those who choose to disobey and demean God himself. I am not speaking here of ignorance, nor of temporary insanity, but of planned malicious hatred toward God.
You mean people like Saul/Paul....
QuoteQuoteTo assign such means that ..."CLAY" generates the shape it becomes (is becoming) via its own propensity! As an observer of nature, ...what "CLAY" has ever been witnessed "shaping itself" (in a good, bad, ugly or beautiful "manner")?
Obviously you have never spent any time in a glass-blowers establishment, nor yet a clayworkers factory. There are many instances of works that go wrong in the makiing, not according to the intent of the designer.
Don't you think God's craftmanship is of higher standards as that of those you saw in that factory?
QuoteWatch and see how it is the clay disobeys God's will. AND it is only AFTER the clay becomes evil in behaviour, that God determiones to destroy it. He did not make some pots evil and some good, he made them all and watched to see how they would turn out. Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
I see your point Theo. The evil vessel was not trown into eternal hell. It wasn't annihilated. It was made anew. That sounds abit URish. The only problem I have with that verse is that it seems to say Father is a potter of average skills. Lots of pots are not according to design. If we look back into history only the pot called Jesus was according to design. All others need(ed) to be remodelled. That would make Father the a worse potter in history.....
Quote from: willieH on March 27, 2010, 04:50:31 AM
willieH: Hi Theo... :hithere:
I will address this answer of yours in a few posts due to the length that shall be required... :wink3:
Quote from: willieH on March 26, 2010, 09:55:52 PM
willieH: Hi Theo... :hithere:
I'm not Paul (obviously!)... but I would like to give you something to think about bro...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 26, 2010, 11:48:59 AM
Paul, I have been following the posts lately instead of being the posts, because I am perplexed by some of what I am reading. Please indicate if I am misapplying what has been said. One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned. Have I misunderstood?
How can something be IN the Creation of God, and NOT be forthcoming OF HIS WILL? :dunno:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMWell, that is the issue isn't it? You say it is God's will that I sin. I deny that. It is not God's will that any man should perish, but that all come to repentance.[II Pet 3:9] It is no longer an issue with me as to the eternallity of the event, but the meaning of the term itself. What is "destroy" if it is only a temporary thing?
Theo... the commonly used Greek word "DESTROY" ("perish in 2 Pet 3:9) -- is APOLLUMI, which was the condition of the LOST [apollumi/destroyed] SON... destruction IS temporary... for the issue of being LOST is an issue of DESTRUCTION when PERFECTION is considered by the observer.
The Parables of the LOST COIN, LOST SHEEP and LOST SON ...ALL... use the word APOLLUMI... in ALL cases destruction which is implied by the use of the word Apollumi is NOT PERMANENT... the COIN and SHEEP were both FOUND... (therefore NOT LOST) and the LOST SON, returned Home from destruction (therefore NOT DESTROYED nor LOST)
One who is LOST/destroyed/apollumi, is one which is OTHER than in a state of PERFECTION [which means COMPLETE]... but Scripture demonstrates parabolicly that this is NOT a permanent state.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMI have resolved "eternal" as mistranslation, because I already understood that application in the old covenant, just never considered it in the new. For that teaching, I thank those who have contributed to this thread.
The only issue I have remaining is the meaning and application of the punishment of those who choose to disobey and demean God himself. I am not speaking here of ignorance, nor of temporary insanity, but of planned malicious hatred toward God.
Okay Theo... WHO "seeks after God"? Rom 3:10-13 -- Psalm 14:1-3
If we are not "seeking" after Him, (coming to the light) OF OURSELVES... then we are, OF OURSELVES found, ...HATING the LIGHT... which is why YHVH must DRAG each one to the WORD -- John 6:44 -- (one dragged is not coming willingly)... and even then the journey is not yet complete, ...for the WORD must then, REVEAL the Father to them -- John 14:6
For coming to it causes men EXPOSURE of the actual state they are IN...
As far as "Planned malicious hatred"... it is DECLARED we shall be DESPARATELY WICKED of HEART... what else can a DESPARATELY WICKED HEART ...Plan, bro?
Quote from: willieHTo assign such means that ..."CLAY" generates the shape it becomes (is becoming) via its own propensity! As an observer of nature, ...what "CLAY" has ever been witnessed "shaping itself" (in a good, bad, ugly or beautiful "manner")?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMObviously you have never spent any time in a glass-blowers establishment, nor yet a clayworkers factory. There are many instances of works that go wrong in the makiing, not according to the intent of the designer.
Though I am not a maker of things made from CLAY, you assume incorrectly...
I have experienced working CLAY, in my education... and can testify that CLAY (of itself) is inert, inanimate, and aside from its ingredients, ...its only NATURAL trait is RESISTANCE.
Your answer, did NOT ADDRESS what I asked you... Have you EVER witnessed CLAY -- SHAPING ITSELF? :dontknow: In ANY "manner"?
Because the NATURE of "CLAY" is RESISTENT, does not mean that said RESISTENCE is emergent of an INTENT of the CLAY... It is merely NATURALLY resistant, for HE which CREATED the CLAY, also CREATED its inherent feature of RESISTANCE.
Not of its "PLANNED MALICIOUS HATRED" of the POTTER, but of its NATURE, which was INTENDED of the POTTER which made it as well as SHAPES it.
Your reference to a "designer" in a CLAY factory is insufficient in this... for said "designer" is a mere human being who is NOT the designer (creator) OF the CLAY itself... he is only the RESHAPER of it.
I'll continue in the next post, and give you and opportunity to try to ANSWER what I asked you...
Since you seem to consider yourself an observer of CLAY... have you ever witnessed it SHAPING ITSELF? (Btw... Please don't cite, wet clay "falling apart", for this is not of an inherent "intent", it is simply the CLAY submitting to external affecting elements or laws such as water, and/or gravity)
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Please do not tell me what not to cite. THAT is overcontrol. If I cite an argument and you can respond, that is one thing, but for you to tell me what not to argue is pretentious.
As for witnessing clay shape itself, God himself gave you the excample in two different areas. First, in Jeremiah, which I cited for you, which applies to your question. God only decided good or evil AFTER the clay determined its use.
Look again at how GOD speaks of HIS effort as the potter: Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I DO WITH YOU as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." This is God's description of himself dealing with Israel as a potter deals with his clay. I DID NOT MAKE THIS UP. GOD DID. I think it will be prudent for you to make the same application God did. HE, AS a potter, forms the clay, and only AFTER determining how the clay behaves, decides how to respond to its behaviour. He does not design evil into the pot.
Second: You ask if I ever observed clay forming itself. 2 Cor 4:7 "But we have this treasure in [clay][ostracinois] earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us." ostrakinois = dative neuter plural adjective = made of baked clay, pottery. My response is YES! I have seen this mortal clay tiome and again make decisions contrary to its best interest, as family and neighbors, friends, and strangers, dete3rmined to go their own headstrong way. I had a baby sister that took her own life. I do not believe for a moment, God directed her to do that. I do not accept that it was God's will that she kill herself. She was impregnated by a Catholic priest, her councellor, and when her baby was born, he made her give it to the Catholic orphanage. She killed herself because of post partum depression, only one among other issues she had. IT WAS NOT GOD'S WILL. The earthen vessel she was did her in.
Quote from: willieH on March 27, 2010, 06:06:12 AM
willieH: Hi Theo... :cloud9:
Continuing:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMIt all has to do with time and circumstance, design and design flaws incorporated in new patterns. Some work, some do not. And even some will work and some not within the parameters of a new pattern. Time and circumstance happens to them all.
Watch and see how it is the clay disobeys God's will. AND it is only AFTER the clay becomes evil in behaviour, that God determiones to destroy it. He did not make some pots evil and some good, he made them all and watched to see how they would turn out. Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
Your attempt to avoid what is stated is shown in your own "contextual" report:
6 "AS the CLAY is in the potter's hand [which noted being MARRED in the hand of said potter]... so ARE YE --- IN MINE HAND, ...O house of ISRAEL..."
YHVH is noting an example of CLAY to the hearer... which notes that ALL of its shaping, good or bad, is done by the exampled potter, ...and in the VERY SAME WAY ["AS"] ...ALL of said SHAPING and RESHAPING of ISRAEL [God's people] is done BY the hand of the POTTER... to include the "MARRING" and the "REMAKING" of the "marred clay".
I personally do not see how you cannot see this brother Theo... :mshock:
Oh, I see your point quite adequately WH; I hjust do not agree with your final conclusion. You see, you are not tasked with just the final conclusion, but must properly assess all that leads to that conclusion.
Look again at what God said. I will begin with that part that leads to YOUR cdonclusion, then expand to MY conclusion, for your consideration:
THE PART THAT LEADS TO YOUR FINAL CONCLUSION: Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold,
as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
I agree, God's part in designing the pots from clay seems to parallel that of the potter who designs pots. BUT, God tells of a difference, in just the next part of the context: Jer 18:7 "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."[/quote]
Look real close WH; God tells us at what point he determines a vessel has not turned out according to its original design. "
At what instant" is a reference to a particular popint in time at which God makes a decision based on results, not intention. He proceeds then to define the moment "IF that nation against whom I have pronounced, turn from evil..."
Do you see it WH? There is opportunity provided before God destroys, to repent. THAT tells us God did not design with intent for nations to do evil. He designed nations to exist, and only after their intent becomes evident from their activities, does he then determine to advance, or deter, their activity with destruction or blessings.
Look at it again with this in view.
Jer 18:7 "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."[/quote]
I'll quit for now. Too much territory has built up in some of the posts, so I will not respond to very much at a time, until some are resolved. Thank you for your input.
Quote from: jabcat on March 27, 2010, 12:40:23 AM
Just a quick one here - I'm sure some will add more indepth.
I think of the scriptures about the fullness of times, all things above and on earth being reconciled. Also, the prodigal son, and how it was mostly about the (F)father - his love, long-suffering, acceptance, willingess to forgive and take back in.... :2c:
There'll be more...
Agreed! BUT (knew that was coming) notice the prodigal son REPENTED and returned to his Father's hous. The Father did not pursue him in any way. Did not send a servant after him with invitation, nor did he send a soldier after him with threats, nor did he send a prophet after him with warnings. He waited until the son repented, THEN blessed him with all his love.
Quote from: jabcat on March 27, 2010, 01:53:36 AM
I agree with much of what you've said in your last post, and I think much of this particular piece of things is "debatable" and can get "really hot". That's why we're careful with it here. Even within UR believers, there is quite a bit of variance in understanding as to how God will eventually reconcile all, yet still a belief that it will happen.
By the way...I see you said you believe all will eventually be reconciled to God. Praise the Lord!
You may not have been able/ready to hear it at the time, but awhile back I believe I said to you that I believe the evil works will be burned away, so the spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord. God gave the spirit, and it returns to Him. There may not be much if ANYTHING left of, say Hitler, except the spirit God gave. That's the way I see it. That whatever "makes it through the fire" will bow and confess IN the Holy Spirit that Jesus is Master. Also, that however much we may struggle about the "wills" issue, that God sets the conditions for every knee to bow, and that He will ultimately get His way. Example of the prodigal son...I would say God allowed for/set those conditions within His overall plan and will, that the prodigal, through his choices of disobedience, would end up somewhere he didn't want to be, reaping what he'd sown, and meeting his end in "destruction" so to speak. So that he returned (actually was brought back :bigGrin:) to the Father [father].
Hope that helps some...James.
I always consider the parable of the "riotous" son to be more about the older brother than the younger.
Luke 15:11 "And he said, A certain man had two sons: 12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."
So far, we have a story that presents us with a son in his youth, impatient and reckless, asking for something he had not a right to ask, his inheritance, whcih usually waits for the passing of a generation, to spend it upon his whimsical wants. Upon wasting his living, he remembers the "good ol' days" and returns(repent = a turning back) to his father's house, expressing his acceptance of his fatherr's jugment, even to the point of being considered one of the servants, rather than an heir. This is no longer a son in youth trying to gain advantage; this is a repentant son striving for a better reality than his actions have provided.
THEN comes the older brother, naturally curious and inquisitive as to the sounds emanating from his father's house. Upon being told of the return of his younger brother and his father's reaction, he became angry at the injustice of the treatment he received in comparison with the treatment his brother received:
25 "Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 28 And he was angry, and would not go in:"
His father this time, pursued the brother who was wrong. "therefore came his father out, and intreated him." Perhaps because he owed his firstborn something he did not owe his second son, I don't really know why the disparity in treatment.
I do know that the older brother began to express himself in self-righteous indignation; 29 "And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:"
I see that the older brother then begins an attack on his sibling: 30 "But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf." The older brother assumes and then convicts without evidence, so typical of many of us who feel wronged by family affiliations.
The old man appealed to reason with his firstborn son; 31 "And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found."
How it turned out in the end we will never know, but I live with the hope that the elder brother also repented.
Hi Theo,
The way I came to understand that God didn't just allow things to happen, that he planned it all is like this:
You said that "God didn't cause you to sin", in a sense that is right. Let's go back to the beginning and ask ourselves these questions.
Who created Satan/the serpent, or whatever you want to call it?
Who put the tree in the garden of Eden?
Who made law and gave it to us in the first place?
Doesn't it say that sin is the transgression of law?
Where did this law come from?
Wasn't Adam and Eve flesh? If so, then it says the flesh cannot please God.
If God created the thing, Satan that is always tempting us and it was God who gave us these commandments that is impossible for us to keep why do you think that God isn't responsible for our sinning?
God didn't ask our permission to even be here, he didn't ask our permission for Christ to die for us.
God is ultimately responsible for our birth, death, salvation, and everything in between. We can only choose what is available to us and who was it that created all things?
Man works, moves, acts, eats, lives, dies, with what God has provided for us. (Acts 17:28) "For in him we live, and move, and have our being:
Now it says that God doesn't tempt man and that is right, but he gave that job to Satan or influences that will cause us to be tempted.
If you put your child in a room full of toys and tell it it can play with any toy but don't touch the doll or car, what is the first thing it will do once you leave the room? You know it will do what you told it not to do because you know how the mind of a two or three year old operates. God knows the beginning and he knows the outcome because he created all things and knows how it all works.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 27, 2010, 04:35:14 PM
Hi Theo,
The way I came to understand that God didn't just allow things to happen, that he planned it all is like this:
You said that "God didn't cause you to sin", in a sense that is right. Let's go back to the beginning and ask ourselves these questions.
Who created Satan/the serpent, or whatever you want to call it?
God did.
QuoteWho put the tree in the garden of Eden?
God did.
QuoteWho made law and gave it to us in the first place?
God did.
QuoteDoesn't it say that sin is the transgression of law?
Correct.
QuoteWhere did this law come from?
From God.
QuoteWasn't Adam and Eve flesh? If so, then it says the flesh cannot please God.
Not until after the fall of man. Prior to that fall, he loo0k and proclaimed all things "very good."
QuoteIf God created the thing, Satan that is always tempting us and it was God who gave us these commandments that is impossible for us to keep why do you think that God isn't responsible for our sinning?
Because with every temptation, God provides a way of escape. The fact that we do not avail ourselveof that A"way of escape" does nothing to negate the fact or the reality of it. [1 Cor 10:13] "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
It is similar to an event in which you give your graduating daughter a car for comploeting the rigors of school. If she goes out and some drunken idiot runs into her car and she gets killed in the car, is it your fault because you gave her the car? "Time and circumstance happeneth to them all." It is so much easier to just blame God for everything, but I blame God for absolutely positively NOTHING. He provides. We either use or abuse. Are YOU responsible for every abuse your children pile on the blessings you provide for them? You buy a television for their entertainment when they are little children; as teens they ruin their health by non-stop addictive t.v. - do you take the blame? Or have they refused to stop after you tried to rectify the issue? You might even die in an attempt to correct something that has gone radically wrong with something you provided initially, but blame belongs on the one who abuses through making bad decisions.
QuoteGod didn't ask our permission to even be here, he didn't ask our permission for Christ to die for us.
The old issue of "Don't blame me, I didn't ask to exist" is so out of balance with reality it seldom deserves a response. Consequences for our decisions NEVER have anything to do with our not being consulted about our existence. If we existed, it would be too late, if we did not yet exist, how is one to ask? It is so far out of reality it makes me want to describe it with bad words. Shame on you for tempting me. (See how easy it is to assign fault?)
QuoteGod is ultimately responsible for our birth, death, salvation, and everything in between. We can only choose what is available to us and who was it that created all things?
Too many questions there to respond with one answer. You mix absolute responsibility put on God for creating all things, with our actively "choosing" which implies F/W, which is not a topic for this board. But I agree, "we can only choose." It is a choice. It is a selection of available options, including a "way of escape" from all temptations.
QuoteMan works, moves, acts, eats, lives, dies, with what God has provided for us. (Acts 17:28) "For in him we live, and move, and have our being:
Now it says that God doesn't tempt man and that is right, but he gave that job to Satan or influences that will cause us to be tempted.
AND provides a way of escape, for all temptations. THAT implies choice on my part.
QuoteIf you put your child in a room full of toys and tell it it can play with any toy but don't touch the doll or car, what is the first thing it will do once you leave the room? You know it will do what you told it not to do because you know how the mind of a two or three year old operates. God knows the beginning and he knows the outcome because he created all things and knows how it all works.
THAT is an assumption. God says otherwise. He says "Neither came it into my mind" in Jeremiah 32:35 "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."
AND God told Israel - " Deuteronomy 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no."
Joshua 5:6 "For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey."
God did not prejudge Israel, he gave them a task and watched them perform, and only after they failed did he punish their efforts for disobedience, not for lack of performance. Disobedience is an act of will, following instruction.
In no way did God give them commandments knowing they would fial, then hit them with punishment for doing that which he knew all along they would do. THAT is not found in scripture. "Will with the temptation, provide a way of escape" is scripture.
What say you?
Quote from: Theo Book
So far, we have a story that presents us with a son in his youth, impatient and reckless, asking for something he had not a right to ask, his inheritance, whcih usually waits for the passing of a generation, to spend it upon his whimsical wants. Upon wasting his living, he remembers the "good ol' days" and returns(repent = a turning back) to his father's house, expressing his acceptance of his fatherr's jugment, even to the point of being considered one of the servants, rather than an heir. This is no longer a son in youth trying to gain advantage; this is a repentant son striving for a better reality than his actions have provided.
One thing I want to make sure of. One misunderstanding that can rear it's head is that Christian universalism in any way teaches that the unrepentant get saved. The issue really is if any can possibly remain unrepentant endlessly. While true the parable of the prodical son shows the son leaving home and making choices without the father seeking and coming after him to persuade him to do anything.
This is a picture of but one way we come back home.
The law of reaping what we sow is one thing God has put into place in order that we learn and many times reaping what we sow is all we need to return home.
We also have the parable of the lost sheep, where it is explained that the shepherd looks "until" it is found. This is another thing that God has set into place. There is no possible way that God can seek us "until" we are found if there is a time limit on how long he has to look.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 27, 2010, 05:51:03 PM
One thing I want to make sure of. One misunderstanding that can rear it's head is that Christian universalism in any way teaches that the unrepentant get saved. The issue really is if any can possibly remain unrepentant endlessly.
THAT is the crux of the matter. I indeed thought that was what USAL teaches.
There is no provision made for the dead tro repent of anything, and the judgment is going to judge us for the deeds done IN THE BODY, which kinda limits us to when we were alive.
???
Quote from: Theo Book
THAT is an assumption. God says otherwise. He says "Neither came it into my mind" in Jeremiah 32:35 "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
look at this verse really good. It says "which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind.
God didn't command them to do this neither did it come into his mind to command them to do it. That is not a commandment he gave them.
He gave them other commandments which they couldn't keep either and he took responsibility for it by saying, "The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles; Yet the Lord HATH NOT GIVEN YOU AN HEART TO PERCIEVE, AND EYES TO SEE, AND EARS TO HEAR, UNTO THIS DAY".
God is teaching us good and evil. He gave Israel laws to live by and consequences if they broke those laws. He also blinded their eyes and stopped their ears so they would experience the evil or consequences for not keepin those laws.
CHB
Quote from: Theo Book
THAT is the crux of the matter. I indeed thought that was what USAL teaches.
There is no provision made for the dead tro repent of anything, and the judgment is going to judge us for the deeds done IN THE BODY, which kinda limits us to when we were alive.
???
Well if your comment is a statement concerning salvation then are you saying deeds are what saves us?
Hi Theo. Re: the prodigal son, take it another step deeper - ultimately, who sets the parameters of the conditions, set the law of reaping and sowing in place, put the hole in our heart that longs for God, etc? I believe it's God Almighty - "man's mind plans his way, but God directs his steps" (Pr. 16:9). :thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB
Wasn't Adam and Eve flesh? If so, then it says the flesh cannot please God.
Quote from: Theo Book
Not until after the fall of man. Prior to that fall, he loo0k and proclaimed all things "very good."
God said it was "good", he didn't say it was perfect. It won't be perfect until all is in all.
You keep saying "the fall of man". Where did man fall from? Adam and Eve were flesh and blood just like we are. Eve sinned before she ever partook of the tree of good and evil. She LUSTED for the fruit of the vine, thought it could make her wise, PRIDEFUL.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 27, 2010, 08:04:34 PM
Quote from: CHB
Wasn't Adam and Eve flesh? If so, then it says the flesh cannot please God.
Quote from: Theo Book
Not until after the fall of man. Prior to that fall, he loo0k and proclaimed all things "very good."
God said it was "good", he didn't say it was perfect. It won't be perfect until all is in all.
You keep saying "the fall of man". Where did man fall from? Adam and Eve were flesh and blood just like we are. Eve sinned before she ever partook of the tree of good and evil. She LUSTED for the fruit of the vine, thought it could make her wise, PRIDEFUL.
CHB
"Lust" is translated "desire" which of itself is not sin. How you deal with it might result in sin, but it is not set in stone that all desire leads to sin. Jesus said "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you." It is the same word in the Greek as is translated "lust" in James's book.
You are correct though, that no flesh will please God. I am still looking ino much of what is posted, as well as the books posted on the scholar's pages. I agree that salvation seems universal in nature, but I still have a problem with repentance taking place after death. I see no mention of such in scirpture. Any help?
willieH: Hi TB... :grin:
Quote from: willieH on March 27, 2010, 04:50:31 AM
Theo... the commonly used Greek word "DESTROY" ("perish in 2 Pet 3:9) -- is APOLLUMI, which was the condition of the LOST [apollumi/destroyed] SON... destruction IS temporary... for the issue of being LOST is an issue of DESTRUCTION when PERFECTION is considered by the observer.
The Parables of the LOST COIN, LOST SHEEP and LOST SON ...ALL... use the word APOLLUMI... in ALL cases destruction which is implied by the use of the word Apollumi is NOT PERMANENT... the COIN and SHEEP were both FOUND... (therefore NOT LOST) and the LOST SON, returned Home from destruction (therefore NOT DESTROYED nor LOST)
One who is LOST/destroyed/apollumi, is one which is OTHER than in a state of PERFECTION [which means COMPLETE]... but Scripture demonstrates parabolicly that this is NOT a permanent state.
Ignoring what I said here will NOT make it go away Theo... However, you are welcome to ignore it all you like...
Quote from: willieHOkay Theo... WHO "seeks after God"? Rom 3:10-13 -- Psalm 14:1-3
If we are not "seeking" after Him, (coming to the light) OF OURSELVES... then we are, OF OURSELVES found, ...HATING the LIGHT... which is why YHVH must DRAG each one to the WORD -- John 6:44 -- (one dragged is not coming willingly)... and even then the journey is not yet complete, ...for the WORD must then, REVEAL the Father to them -- John 14:6
For coming to it causes men EXPOSURE of the actual state they are IN...
As far as "Planned malicious hatred"... it is DECLARED we shall be DESPARATELY WICKED of HEART... what else can a DESPARATELY WICKED HEART ...Plan, bro?
More of the SAME...
Quote from: willieHTo assign such means that ..."CLAY" generates the shape it becomes (is becoming) via its own propensity! As an observer of nature, ...what "CLAY" has ever been witnessed "shaping itself" (in a good, bad, ugly or beautiful "manner")?
Again, this question is UNANSWERED by YOU...
Quote from: willieHYour answer, did NOT ADDRESS what I asked you... Have you EVER witnessed CLAY -- SHAPING ITSELF? :dontknow: In ANY "manner"?
Because the NATURE of "CLAY" is RESISTENT, does not mean that said RESISTENCE is emergent of an INTENT of the CLAY... It is merely NATURALLY resistant, for HE which CREATED the CLAY, also CREATED its inherent feature of RESISTANCE.
Not of its "PLANNED MALICIOUS HATRED" of the POTTER, but of its NATURE, which was INTENDED of the POTTER which made it as well as SHAPES it.
Your reference to a "designer" in a CLAY factory is insufficient in this... for said "designer" is a mere human being who is NOT the designer (creator) OF the CLAY itself... he is only the RESHAPER of it.
I'll continue in the next post, and give you and opportunity to try to ANSWER what I asked you...
Since you seem to consider yourself an observer of CLAY... have you ever witnessed it SHAPING ITSELF? (Btw... Please don't cite, wet clay "falling apart", for this is not of an inherent "intent", it is simply the CLAY submitting to external affecting elements or laws such as water, and/or gravity)
You address NONE of this below...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 02:34:05 PMPlease do not tell me what not to cite. THAT is overcontrol. If I cite an argument and you can respond, that is one thing, but for you to tell me what not to argue is pretentious.
No need to get all up in a wrinkle brother T... and what I said was hardly "pretentious".
I was merely noting that elements OUTSIDE of CLAY such as WATER or GRAVITY, are not emergent FROM the CLAY... so stick with the CLAY ITSELF, as you (in futility) might try to describe its NATURAL properties or inherent "abilities" which might contribute to IT, ...."shaping" ITSELF...
Disregard for what the Scripture says, is the point, brother... As I pointed out, the "potter" example was given in
Jer 18:4 and then IMMEDIATELY after it,
YHVH inserts Himself in the TEXT ...
AS... dealing WITH ISRAEL in the VERY SAME WAY.
1st -- MARRING the CLAY --
IN His HAND, then...
2nd -- MAKING it GOOD --
IN His HAND...
This IS the
DIVINE order of Creation, in which GOD brings man PERFECTLY -- THROUGH
SUFFERINGS --
Heb 2:10 -- unto Himself
---> 1 Cor 15:46 :nod:
Jer 18:4-6 --
and the VESSEL that he made of CLAY was MARRED IN the HAND -- OF the POTTER; so he MADE IT AGAIN another VESSEL [see Rom 9:21], as it seemed GOOD to the potter to make... then the WORD of YHVH came SAYING unto me... O HOUSE of ISRAEL, cannot I DO WITH YOU, ...AS... this potter? SAITH YHVH, ...behold AS is the CLAY in the POTTERS HAND [example just given], ...SO ARE YE, ...IN MY HAND, O [naturally resistant as IS the CLAY exampled] --- HOUSE of ISRAEL.IGNORE it Theo... likely it is not for you at this time, rather it is for others. You are DEFINITELY a tool in the HAND of the potter, however, your teaching is about, ...MARRING the CLAY... :sigh: NOT about making it AGAIN, ...GOOD.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 02:34:05 PMAs for witnessing clay shape itself, God himself gave you the excample in two different areas. First, in Jeremiah, which I cited for you, which applies to your question. God only decided good or evil AFTER the clay determined its use.
Unlike yourself... I answered you in detail... instead of reciprocating, you IGNORE the answer I gave and then complain that I have endeavored to CONTROL you... :rolleye:
As I ...JUST SAID... the example was given, and the PARALLEL noted by GOD in His dealings with ISRAEL... :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 02:34:05 PMLook again at how GOD speaks of HIS effort as the potter: Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I DO WITH YOU as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
This is God's description of himself dealing with Israel as a potter deals with his clay. I DID NOT MAKE THIS UP. GOD DID. I think it will be prudent for you to make the same application God did. HE, AS a potter, forms the clay, and only AFTER determining how the clay behaves, decides how to respond to its behaviour. He does not design evil into the pot.
Again, GOD you purposely IGNORE the FACT that it was GOD which created the CLAY with a NATURAL RESISTANCE... and it is MARRED ...IN... His HAND (meaning that the marring was NOT, "done" of the "mind" of the CLAY -- AS -- the prior example PLAINLY displays... IS within the CREATED RESISTANCE which it was PURPOSED to HAVE, by the CREATOR OF THE CLAY... and therein [within the Creation of the CLAY -- BY -- the CREATOR] is found the "MARRING"...
Again... I have no problem with YOU ignoring any of this... just with letting your opinion stand before others as you campaign for that ignorance to remain, in the stead of the
TRUTH.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 02:34:05 PMSecond: You ask if I ever observed clay forming itself. 2 Cor 4:7 "But we have this treasure in [clay][ostracinois] earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us." ostrakinois = dative neuter plural adjective = made of baked clay, pottery. My response is YES! I have seen this mortal clay tiome and again make decisions contrary to its best interest, as family and neighbors, friends, and strangers, dete3rmined to go their own headstrong way. I had a baby sister that took her own life. I do not believe for a moment, God directed her to do that. I do not accept that it was God's will that she kill herself. She was impregnated by a Catholic priest, her councellor, and when her baby was born, he made her give it to the Catholic orphanage. She killed herself because of post partum depression, only one among other issues she had. IT WAS NOT GOD'S WILL. The earthen vessel she was did her in.
FIRST -- might I express my heartfelt condolences at this tragedy... My heart goes out to you brother, in your experience of the death of your sister... In discussing this, I too have experienced such a tragedy, ...I lost a GRANDSON 8.75 months... stillborn. I KNOW what tragedy is. I know there was meaning and purpose in that death, as we are ALL intertwined... and felt deep sorrow at being deprived of my grandson... yet knew that he was spared the sorrows of this life within his untimely death. I could blame GOD for this... but instead PRAISE Him, for I shall see him one day in a better place, as shall you, your sister.
GOD means for tragedy to come into our lives at the hand of the practice of EVIL. We REAP what we SOW... and experiencing this life, is meant to be a DIFFICULT experience. We follow our Savior within the "SUFFERING experience", at the hand of EVIL. His life was of giving, healing, loving, helping, etc. ...yet culminated in horrible persecution, beating, humiliation and ultimately -- death, at the hand of the worst of scenarios (crucifixtion)... All that said...
SECOND -- Your reply did NOT ADDRESS the question I asked, Theo... and your attempt to EVADE answering it is hereby noted... as we were speaking of CLAY as found in (to use your words), a "clay factory"...
I did not ask you ANYTHING about "MORTAL CLAY"... I clearly asked you about NATURAL CLAY... for in IT, is found what is
actually happening within CLAY that is in the "MORTAL" condition (man).
It is important that we observe the EXAMPLE which was FIRST given by
YHVH in --
Jer 18:4 -- for it sets the tone for what follows... noting that this example of the "potter"... is EXACTLY how GOD is working within HIS SHAPING of US...
You continue to EVADE, and in your "summary" answers, attempt to sidestep DETAILS... which, in the end... will NOT PROFIT you...
This is probably the manner of discussion you used with Gary Amirault 11 years ago, in your FIRM disagreements with him about UR...
You failed to learn
TRUTH offered to you by GOD through Gary Amirault
"THEN", ...and you continue the SAME pattern and purpose, in the
"NOW". :sigh:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 08:21:29 PM
You are correct though, that no flesh will please God. I am still looking ino much of what is posted, as well as the books posted on the scholar's pages. I agree that salvation seems universal in nature, but I still have a problem with repentance taking place after death. I see no mention of such in scirpture. Any help?
Theo, will you die perfect having repented of every single sin you have ever comitted? If not, then what hope do you have in your current belief structure if you then cannot repent after death?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 27, 2010, 09:20:04 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 08:21:29 PM
You are correct though, that no flesh will please God. I am still looking ino much of what is posted, as well as the books posted on the scholar's pages. I agree that salvation seems universal in nature, but I still have a problem with repentance taking place after death. I see no mention of such in scirpture. Any help?
Theo, will you die perfect having repented of every single sin you have ever comitted? If not, then what hope do you have in your current belief structure if you then cannot repent after death?
Of course. Are there sins in your conscience of which it can be said you have not repented? I seriously doubt it. Not knowing, however, I can only hope on your behalf. THAT is the purpose of contemplation of one's faults. To rid the conscience of the deceitfulness of sin. To avail one's self of the blood of Christ.
Perfection is not mine to claim, it is God's to impute, and mine to hope for, to pray for, to long for. But, to attain? Not my call.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:33:18 PM
Of course. Are there sins in your conscience of which it can be said you have not repented? I seriously doubt it. Not knowing, however, I can only hope on your behalf. THAT is the purpose of contemplation of one's faults. To rid the conscience of the deceitfulness of sin. To avail one's self of the blood of Christ.
Perfection is not mine to claim, it is God's to impute, and mine to hope for, to pray for, to long for. But, to attain? Not my call.
I'm not quite sure what your saying here. Are you saying you will not need to repent after death because you have "contemplated" your faults in this life?
Quote from: willieH on March 27, 2010, 09:04:41 PM
willieH: Hi TB... :grin:
Quote from: willieH on March 27, 2010, 04:50:31 AM
Theo... the commonly used Greek word "DESTROY" ("perish in 2 Pet 3:9) -- is APOLLUMI, which was the condition of the LOST [apollumi/destroyed] SON... destruction IS temporary... for the issue of being LOST is an issue of DESTRUCTION when PERFECTION is considered by the observer.
The Parables of the LOST COIN, LOST SHEEP and LOST SON ...ALL... use the word APOLLUMI... in ALL cases destruction which is implied by the use of the word Apollumi is NOT PERMANENT... the COIN and SHEEP were both FOUND... (therefore NOT LOST) and the LOST SON, returned Home from destruction (therefore NOT DESTROYED nor LOST)
One who is LOST/destroyed/apollumi, is one which is OTHER than in a state of PERFECTION [which means COMPLETE]... but Scripture demonstrates parabolicly that this is NOT a permanent state.
Ignoring what I said here will NOT make it go away Theo... However, you are welcome to ignore it all you like...
Willie, Willie, Willie, Do you think you are the only corespondent on the board I try to respond to? I do not respond to every item on every post for the simple reason, I have not had time to reason all of them out with any degree of certainty. Will you, with patience, allow me time to assimilate all that is said? It is now 14 pages of information, all of which I am not avoiding, I am simply trying to touch here a little, there a little, while I study the content of all that is being said for my education on an issue I am not knowledgable in.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 27, 2010, 10:40:22 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:33:18 PM
Of course. Are there sins in your conscience of which it can be said you have not repented? I seriously doubt it. Not knowing, however, I can only hope on your behalf. THAT is the purpose of contemplation of one's faults. To rid the conscience of the deceitfulness of sin. To avail one's self of the blood of Christ.
Perfection is not mine to claim, it is God's to impute, and mine to hope for, to pray for, to long for. But, to attain? Not my call.
I'm not quite sure what your saying here. Are you saying you will not need to repent after death because you have "contemplated" your faults in this life?
Nope! I'm saying I am not aware of any scriptural teaching that deals with opportunity after death to repent. Do YOU?
Please share!
Quote from: willieH on March 27, 2010, 09:04:41 PM
This is probably the manner of discussion you used with Gary Amirault 11 years ago, in your FIRM disagreements with him about UR...
You failed to learn TRUTH offered to you by GOD through Gary Amirault "THEN", ...and you continue the SAME pattern and purpose, in the "NOW". :sigh:
Really? Based upon what?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:43:37 PM
Nope! I'm saying I am not aware of any scriptural teaching that deals with opportunity after death to repent. Do YOU?
Please share!
A few thoughts I have on this Theo. 1) when every knee bows and every tongue confesses (joyfully proclaims/openly acknowledges) it is **IN** the Holy Spirit (the accurate translation as opposed to BY the Holy Spirit - IMO, big difference. 2) the scripture of dead works, wood, hay, stubble burned so the sould may be saved sounds "post-mortem" to me, 3) if one takes the Revelation both chronologically and future, the last chapter shows the gates of the City open day and night while the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it (who are the kings and priests [the saved/overcomers?] and what are their treasures [gold and silver, or converts?]. I believe the latter. 4) there is a study of "each in his own order" having to do with "the rest" after Christ's coming then being reconciled - also scriptures regarding the reconciliation of all things, vivification of all, etc....
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:43:37 PM
Nope! I'm saying I am not aware of any scriptural teaching that deals with opportunity after death to repent. Do YOU?
Please share!
Yep, sure do.
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Since it is believed that people die on this earth without ever confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of the Father, then this must happen for some after death.
willieH: Hi TB... :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on March 27, 2010, 06:06:12 AM
willieH: Hi Theo... :cloud9:
Continuing:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 01:33:23 AMIt all has to do with time and circumstance, design and design flaws incorporated in new patterns. Some work, some do not. And even some will work and some not within the parameters of a new pattern. Time and circumstance happens to them all.
Watch and see how it is the clay disobeys God's will. AND it is only AFTER the clay becomes evil in behaviour, that God determiones to destroy it. He did not make some pots evil and some good, he made them all and watched to see how they would turn out. Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
Your attempt to avoid what is stated is shown in your own "contextual" report:
6 "AS the CLAY is in the potter's hand [which noted being MARRED in the hand of said potter]... so ARE YE --- IN MINE HAND, ...O house of ISRAEL..."
YHVH is noting an example of CLAY to the hearer... which notes that ALL of its shaping, good or bad, is done by the exampled potter, ...and in the VERY SAME WAY ["AS"] ...ALL of said SHAPING and RESHAPING of ISRAEL [God's people] is done BY the hand of the POTTER... to include the "MARRING" and the "REMAKING" of the "marred clay".
I personally do not see how you cannot see this brother Theo... :mshock:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 03:30:05 PMOh, I see your point quite adequately WH; I hjust do not agree with your final conclusion. You see, you are not tasked with just the final conclusion, but must properly assess all that leads to that conclusion.
Look again at what God said. I will begin with that part that leads to YOUR cdonclusion, then expand to MY conclusion, for your consideration:
THE PART THAT LEADS TO YOUR FINAL CONCLUSION: Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
I agree, God's part in designing the pots from clay seems to parallel that of the potter who designs pots. BUT, God tells of a difference, in just the next part of the context: Jer 18:7 "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
Look real close WH; God tells us at what point he determines a vessel has not turned out according to its original design. "
Are you really serious, Theo?
"God tells us at what point he determines a vessel has NOT TURNED OUT according to ITS ORIGINAL DESIGN"?Sorry, (and no offense intended to you personally) but THAT is just completely ridiculous. :pitiful:
You demote GOD from PERFECT, to being an IMPERFECT "designer" within this statement bro... for YOU CLAIM, that the "ORIGINAL DESIGN" had FLAWS which INTRODUCED THEMSELVES as time passed, and did not "turn out" as intended... And which He did not account for!
You expect that I should listen to you, but... Are you even listening to yourself brother?
What shall we therefore, have in the Heavenly realm, Theo? Are there things in ETERNITY, that shall also follow these flaw ridden "guidelines", you propose?
i.e. As you herein propose, "the ORIGINAL DESIGN" of GOD, contains potential PROBLEMS not taken into account?
So, if we give ear to your proposal that GOD has "designer" flaws in His Creative ability... (His "stuff" doesn't "turn out" as He planned)
What of the PAIN and SUFFERING which GOD notes shall NOT "be" any more? --
Rev 21:4 -- according to YOUR thinking, such a claim is NOT an ABSOLUTE... and maybe, just maybe... these awful things He claims as forever GONE, ...shall possibly (according to you and your deduction of GOD's "designer" problems) -- RE-OCCUR? :mshock:
Your arguements are so full of holes bro... It is an easy task to expose the folly in them... as they present GOD in the wrong perspective... which is sorrowfully, ...a "Creator" that just "hasn't got it down" yet. :pitiful:
Such as suggesting Adam and Eve to have been created PERFECT (as IS God), yet "choosing" IMPERFECTION...
And as do many in Christianity... you stumble within this
SHIPWRECK of a presentation of our ALL POWERFUL Creator...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 03:30:05 PMAt what instant" is a reference to a particular popint in time at which God makes a decision based on results, not intention. He proceeds then to define the moment "IF that nation against whom I have pronounced, turn from evil..."
Do you see it WH? There is opportunity provided before God destroys, to repent. THAT tells us God did not design with intent for nations to do evil. He designed nations to exist, and only after their intent becomes evident from their activities, does he then determine to advance, or deter, their activity with destruction or blessings.
This again goes against the DECLARATION of ALL things YET to be DONE --
Isaiah 46:10 -- and proposes ALTERNATIVE possibilities... which proposal in turn proposes that GOD is UNSURE of the statements made in HIS WORD (which is also an UNCHANGEABLE entity)...
You are welcome to swallow this garbage if you are so moved... it is completely contrary to GOD as OMNISCIENT as PERFECT, and as ALMIGHTY... for that which He proposes, creates and delegates power to... can and (according to YOU) DOES, ...UPSET His "applecart".
This type of dialogue is called CONDESCENSION... God speaks from an ETERNAL platform to TEMPORAL ears... and only through the SPIRIT, can the TEMPORAL gain ETERNAL insight. You observe in LITERAL terms, that which is SPIRITUAL... and deduce that your conclusion (arrived upon "literally") is SPIRITUAL.
You have GOD, who is PERFECT... watching us to "see" what we DO, and then REACTING to US... which is the CART before the HORSE... we DO what we DO, because GOD has already NOTED via His DECLARATION, what we DID, before it was DONE... and has marked said DOING beforehand...
Rom 9:11 -- how do you account for this Scripture, Theo? How is it that GOD is NO RESPECTER of persons (perfectly impartial)... and yet ESAU, before he had even taken a breath, was DESTINED to SERVE Jacob... not according to anything EITHER of them DID (good or evil)... but according to GOD and HIS ELECTION of these two lives, that HIS PURPOSE would be DONE, ...
BY them? If GOD so treated these lives, then ALL LIVES are so treated, for HE is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS --
Acts 10:34 -- Mark 12:14 -- Eph 6:9 -- Gal 2:6 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Col 3:25 -- Prov 28:21 -- 2 Chron 19:17 -- Job 34:19 -- Rom 2:11GOD is not on the "wait & see" program bro...
WE are on it. :nod:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 03:30:05 PMLook at it again with this in view.
Can you give me one good reason why I should observe your "view"?
Let's face it brother, I am not going to adhere to your present vision, just as surely as YOU shall not adhere to the "view" I presently hold on this matter.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 03:30:05 PMJer 18:7 "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
To begin with GOD does
NOT CHANGE, as noted in --
Mal 3:6 -- "repentence" represents a CHANGE...
Where GOD says "IF"... is NOT what takes place... for HIS
WORD has DECLARED otherwise... so that "repentence" which proposes HE CHANGE, falls forever inert, before His DECLARED intention for history.
When Abraham proposed that GOD not destroy SODOM & GOMORRAH for the sake of 50 (then 45, then 40, then 30, then 20, then 10), GOD consented that He would withhold DESTRUCTION, ...but as the "IF" number was revisited over and over, ...the REALITY was, that NONE of those proposed "IF" numbers represented the ACTUAL number that GOD began with within His PURPOSE, ...by calling LOT, his wife and 2 daughters forth... and the REALITY was that SODOM & GOMORRAH were DESTROYED...
So as I have previously noted (and I am sure you ignored), this is another example of DIVINE SPIRITUAL CONDESCENSION... which means that what actually IS... actually IS... There are NO "alternate possibilities"... What IS, ...IS...
And the
WORD of GOD seeks to propose to the FINITE observer, the TRUTH that GOD shall NOT EVER REPENT (change His mind) of what He has PURPOSED... rather that we might be REVEALED to this TRUTH... and seek in our hearts, the opposite course (good), from the one we presently pursue (evil)
Though you shall NO DOUBT, vehemently disagree, ...Until you come to realize this, you shall find a VEIL (cherubim) within your eyes... as you observe the Holy
WORD which is UNCHANGING and PERMANENT in its DECLARATIONS.
You make
YHVH subject to YOU and YOUR decisions...
You see dear brother, your observations are all centered upon YOU... which "centering" thinks that -- what YOU do -- what YOU think and -- what YOU percieve -- is that to which GOD must react... and until said perception SEES that the COMPLETE opposite is true, then you shall not SEE the TRUTH within the
WORD of God...
Once you relinquish ALL to Him that you might consider as "YOURS" (what YOU think, what YOU do, what YOU percieve), ...shall you have placed yourself at the foot of His Son... and submitted to the ORDAINATION of your pathway as decided by HIM not by YOU... departing from THIS group:
Matt 7:22-23Your dialogue is often contradictive in so many ways, and which shall not be detered other than via DIVINE intervention... to which end I am in hopes for you to be in prayer. :Pray:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 27, 2010, 11:21:03 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:43:37 PM
Nope! I'm saying I am not aware of any scriptural teaching that deals with opportunity after death to repent. Do YOU?
Please share!
Yep, sure do.
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Since it is believed that people die on this earth without ever confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of the Father, then this must happen for some after death.
:goodpost:
willieH: Hi Theo... :hithere:
Quote from: willieH on March 27, 2010, 04:50:31 AM
Theo... the commonly used Greek word "DESTROY" ("perish in 2 Pet 3:9) -- is APOLLUMI, which was the condition of the LOST [apollumi/destroyed] SON... destruction IS temporary... for the issue of being LOST is an issue of DESTRUCTION when PERFECTION is considered by the observer.
The Parables of the LOST COIN, LOST SHEEP and LOST SON ...ALL... use the word APOLLUMI... in ALL cases destruction which is implied by the use of the word Apollumi is NOT PERMANENT... the COIN and SHEEP were both FOUND... (therefore NOT LOST) and the LOST SON, returned Home from destruction (therefore NOT DESTROYED nor LOST)
One who is LOST/destroyed/apollumi, is one which is OTHER than in a state of PERFECTION [which means COMPLETE]... but Scripture demonstrates parabolicly that this is NOT a permanent state.
Ignoring what I said here will NOT make it go away Theo... However, you are welcome to ignore it all you like...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:41:45 PMWillie, Willie, Willie, Do you think you are the only corespondent on the boad I try to respond to? I do not respond to every item on every post for the simple reason, I have not had time to reason all of them out with any degree of certainty. Will you, with patience, allow me time to assimilate all that is said?
Sorry brother... I did not mean to appear impatient... :mblush:
I realize you are being questioned from all sides here... but what did you expect coming here?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:41:45 PMIt is now 14 pages of information, all of which I am not avoiding, I am simply trying to touch here a little, there a little, while I study the content of all that is being said for my education on an issue I am not knowledgable in.
Take your time... :cloud9:
I have often been at NON-UR boards discussing UR, ...and KNOW what you are up against... dont mean to be "pushy"... :winkgrin:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi Theo... :cloud9:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:54:35 PM
Quote from: willieH on March 27, 2010, 09:04:41 PM
This is probably the manner of discussion you used with Gary Amirault 11 years ago, in your FIRM disagreements with him about UR...
You failed to learn TRUTH offered to you by GOD through Gary Amirault "THEN", ...and you continue the SAME pattern and purpose, in the "NOW". :sigh:
Really? Based upon what?
Primarily, your beliefs are ...UNREASONABLE and unaligned with REASON... to name a few:
(1) you have noted that Adam & Eve were created PERFECT, yet manifested IMPERFECTION...
(2) you have noted that GOD makes things that "dont turn out" as intended... reducing His PERFECTION as a Creator...
(3) you have noted that IMPERFECTION is that which dicates to PERFECTION -- as GOD must "react" to us, instead of the opposite...
(4) you propose that GOD who is PERFECT is able to "REPENT" for things He has DONE... which denotes Him to CHANGE His mind... which proposes that His mind is as unstable as ours.
(5) in the proposal that Scripture notes that He
can "REPENT"... Scripture which says that HE does NOT CHANGE --
Mal 3:6 -- is therefore compromised...
(6) your proposal that GOD brings forth things which do NOT function as INTENDED, arises the thought that within the course of the ETERNAL setting, ...that which is said to be PASSED AWAY, could potentially reappear, due to GOD's shortcomings as a "designer"... Also compromising the Scriptures...
Need more?
..willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on March 27, 2010, 11:07:17 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:43:37 PM
Nope! I'm saying I am not aware of any scriptural teaching that deals with opportunity after death to repent. Do YOU?
Please share!
A few thoughts I have on this Theo. 1) when every knee bows and every tongue confesses (joyfully proclaims/openly acknowledges) it is **IN** the Holy Spirit (the accurate translation as opposed to BY the Holy Spirit - IMO, big difference. 2) the scripture of dead works, wood, hay, stubble burned so the sould may be saved sounds "post-mortem" to me, 3) if one takes the Revelation both chronologically and future, the last chapter shows the gates of the City open day and night while the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it (who are the kings and priests [the saved/overcomers?] and what are their treasures [gold and silver, or converts?]. I believe the latter. 4) there is a study of "each in his own order" having to do with "the rest" after Christ's coming then being reconciled - also scriptures regarding the reconciliation of all things, vivification of all, etc....
o.k. I'll take another look from that perspective.
I must say here, that I have been reading "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment by Thayer, and it is beginning to appear he does not believe scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that the authors of the new covenant were involved in pagan theologies. He speaks of II Peter's account of Michael disputing with the devil over the body of Moses, as "that idle and ridiculous fable."
He references the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as "borrowed from the heathen." He says it did not originate with Jesus but came from babylon. "Now, No one can believe in such a hell as this." "A meterial hell of fire, and torments by flame, have long ago been abandoned." Well, that is the issue is it not? His "proof" argument is based upon, "we have long ago abandoned it?"
The more I read from these pages posted on the "scholars page" the more problems seem to appear. Or am I expected to simply accept the word of a "scholar" who says, "oh, we abandoned that idea long ago?"
I do think the eventual salvaton of all is indicated in scripture, but I do not see where age-lasting torment is eliminated from scripture.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 27, 2010, 11:21:03 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:43:37 PM
Nope! I'm saying I am not aware of any scriptural teaching that deals with opportunity after death to repent. Do YOU?
Please share!
Yep, sure do.
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Since it is believed that people die on this earth without ever confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of the Father, then this must happen for some after death.
I have long understood repentence and confession to be two different things. Is this error?
Quote from: willieH on March 27, 2010, 11:35:30 PM
6 "AS the CLAY is in the potter's hand [which noted being MARRED in the hand of said potter]... so ARE YE --- IN MINE HAND, ...O house of ISRAEL..."
YHVH is noting an example of CLAY to the hearer... which notes that ALL of its shaping, good or bad, is done by the exampled potter, ...and in the VERY SAME WAY ["AS"] ...ALL of said SHAPING and RESHAPING of ISRAEL [God's people] is done BY the hand of the POTTER... to include the "MARRING" and the "REMAKING" of the "marred clay".
I personally do not see how you cannot see this brother Theo... :mshock:
OH! I see what you mean. God, just as the human potter, makes marred (imperfect) pots out of the clay. Ao you agree, God's creation is imperfect. And God therefore is an imperfect creator. Why didn't you say so before? So, if I understand your position,you are saying we are imperfect because our creator is imperfect. Makes perfect sense. Just as that human potter makes marred clay pots. "Just As." Simple. How did I miss that before. Thank you for clearing that up.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 01:19:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 27, 2010, 11:07:17 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 27, 2010, 10:43:37 PM
Nope! I'm saying I am not aware of any scriptural teaching that deals with opportunity after death to repent. Do YOU?
Please share!
A few thoughts I have on this Theo. 1) when every knee bows and every tongue confesses (joyfully proclaims/openly acknowledges) it is **IN** the Holy Spirit (the accurate translation as opposed to BY the Holy Spirit - IMO, big difference. 2) the scripture of dead works, wood, hay, stubble burned so the sould may be saved sounds "post-mortem" to me, 3) if one takes the Revelation both chronologically and future, the last chapter shows the gates of the City open day and night while the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it (who are the kings and priests [the saved/overcomers?] and what are their treasures [gold and silver, or converts?]. I believe the latter. 4) there is a study of "each in his own order" having to do with "the rest" after Christ's coming then being reconciled - also scriptures regarding the reconciliation of all things, vivification of all, etc....
I do think the eventual salvaton of all is indicated in scripture, but I do not see where age-lasting torment is eliminated from scripture.
There's much I don't agree with from various UR writers. No one has all the answers. For me, it's the
big picture. Remember the "outline/framework" I talked about in an earlier post to you? Then lots of details mixed in that we may not understand until "then", because we see through a glass darkly. That's one reason I'm wondering about struggling over some of these doctrinal issues at some point - I've swore up and down about things only to find out later that God had something further for me to understand...
So on point, your last line above regarding "age-lasting torment". I personally agree (Willi, I know you don't, and not confronting or picking an argument here) just saying that's certainly the way I understand it as well. An
age - period of time with a beginning and an end. From some of his studies on aion and old Jewish writings, White Wings suggests that could be from a day to 1 year; and
torment, basanismo - testing for purity, as with a touchstone, as in refining metals and "finding" the gold. Not an expert on this, but Jesus used a phrase (someone help me out) that meant something like kolasis aionios, an age/time of correction - not "eternal torment or separation". One thing J. Preston Eby says that really gets one's attention is, in the Rev. verse regarding "tormented in the presence of the Lamb"...he talks about imagining the precious, gentle Son of God, the gentle Lamb slain for us - standing by just watching while millions were tortured endlessly, agonizingly searing with no purpose or hope - watching 95% of humanity being "lost" to Satan's grasp, while He only managed to salvage 5%. Where's the mercy of a Lamb, a God Who IS love, and a Victorious Jesus Christ the Messiah in that scenario? :2c:
Mod Note - It may be time to step back, take a breath, and realize there's a point beyond which further struggling on "doctrinal details" is likely to do no good. If you've expressed what you believe, then please consider backing things down a bit - maybe even refocusing on one of the other 24 Questions :bigGrin:. Thanks, James.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 01:21:57 AM
I have long understood repentence and confession to be two different things. Is this error?
Perhaps they are. How will you repent of your sins after your death Theo?
Quote from: Theo Book
OH! I see what you mean. God, just as the human potter, makes marred (imperfect) pots out of the clay. Ao you agree, God's creation is imperfect. And God therefore is an imperfect creator. Why didn't you say so before? So, if I understand your position,you are saying we are imperfect because our creator is imperfect. Makes perfect sense. Just as that human potter makes marred clay pots. "Just As." Simple. How did I miss that before. Thank you for clearing that up.
You have to realize that this argument has a slippery slope. No matter how it is approached God can be made to look imperfect. EVEN if you decide that mans "FW" is the difference between Gods perfection and imperfection it is still a losing argument.
You cannot reconcile the logic that God created man perfect and then that perfection made a flawed choice. How does perfection make a flawed choice?
Just doesn't work no matter how you hope it does. This would imply indeed that God being perfection may one day make a flawed choice.
Ro 8:20 For to *vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him *Who subjects it, onin expectation
While I often disagree over some things with some of my friends here, I know that we are not completely free in the sense that the word often implies because scripture declares that we are not.
Quote from: jabcat on March 28, 2010, 04:00:11 AM
Mod Note - It may be time to step back, take a breath, and realize there's a point beyond which further struggling on "doctrinal details" is likely to do no good. If you've expressed what you believe, then please consider backing things down a bit - maybe even refocusing on one of the other 24 Questions :bigGrin:. Thanks, James.
No problem James, I will give things a few days, see what goes on.
I hadn't really noticed you getting "heated" Paul, unless I missed something. Putting a little 'pause' in there in case anyone needs a little interruption to regroup. If not, then discuss away - sorry for not being more clear. Thanks :thumbsup:
QuoteI do think the eventual salvaton of all is indicated in scripture, but I do not see where age-lasting torment is eliminated from scripture.
Well, let me put it this way as a point where all sides can find a common thread of agreement.
Some believe that this age lasting torment is now on earth. I do not necessarily agree 100%, however I have been in great torment in certain parts of my life so it is something I consider more than I might let on for personal reasons. However, someone who believes that is not "eliminating" age-lasting torment it is merely "WHEN" it occurs that would be in disagreement.
So if you actually agree in the consideration of Salvation for all and Judgment for all, then you agree with people around here more than it may appear.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 06:40:28 AM
QuoteI do think the eventual salvaton of all is indicated in scripture, but I do not see where age-lasting torment is eliminated from scripture.
Well, let me put it this way as a point where all sides can find a common thread of agreement.
However, someone who believes that is not "eliminating" age-lasting torment it is merely "WHEN" it occurs that would be in disagreement.
So if you actually agree in the consideration of Salvation for all and Judgment for all, then you agree with people around here more than it may appear.
Amen :nod:
willieH: Hi Theo... :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on March 27, 2010, 11:35:30 PM
6 "AS the CLAY is in the potter's hand [which noted being MARRED in the hand of said potter]... so ARE YE --- IN MINE HAND, ...O house of ISRAEL..."
YHVH is noting an example of CLAY to the hearer... which notes that ALL of its shaping, good or bad, is done by the exampled potter, ...and in the VERY SAME WAY ["AS"] ...ALL of said SHAPING and RESHAPING of ISRAEL [God's people] is done BY the hand of the POTTER... to include the "MARRING" and the "REMAKING" of the "marred clay".
I personally do not see how you cannot see this brother Theo... :mshock:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 01:29:55 AMOH! I see what you mean. God, just as the human potter, makes marred (imperfect) pots out of the clay. Ao you agree, God's creation is imperfect. And God therefore is an imperfect creator.
On the contrary Theo... I believe GOD ...AND... His Creation are PERFECT concerning the REVEALING of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which is the INTENTION of it.
His KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL are PERFECT... and BOTH shall be COMPLETELY revealed, FIRST the EVIL (temporally)... then the GOOD (eternally)
EVIL must be REVEALED in its most DASTARDLY completeness, in order to be KNOWN completely...
COMPLETE is the meaning of PERFECTION... for that which is COMPLETE, is no longer in need of ALTERATION or ADDITION...
This is WHY the Almighty does NOT intervene in the acts of Evil as performed by man, for it is HIS INTENTION that they be KNOWN for what they ARE...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 01:29:55 AMWhy didn't you say so before? So, if I understand your position,you are saying we are imperfect because our creator is imperfect.
NO, ...and I believe that you do NOT understand my position... for,
YOU observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created PERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... Which is NOT what occured.
I on the other hand observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created IMPERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... for what man is, ...is CORRUPT... and he has YET to put on INCORRUPTION --
1 Cor 15:53-54What occured was GOD's DECLARATION of ALL THINGS, ...then MAN has walked (as individuals) the pathway DECLARED by God ...of him within his CORRUPTIBLE IMPERFECTION... PERFECTLY! :nod:
For it is GOD, Scripture DECLARES...that WORKS ALL THINGS according to HIS OWN WILL --
Eph 1:11 -- and MAN's steps are DIRECTED by GOD, for the PURPOSE of REVEALING the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 01:29:55 AMMakes perfect sense. Just as that human potter makes marred clay pots. "Just As." Simple. How did I miss that before. Thank you for clearing that up.
You (sarcastically) "miss it" because GOD has yet to open your eyes TO IT...
YES He does make "MARRED CLAY VESSELS", as Scripture notes:
Rom 9:21 --
Hath not the POTTER ...POWER ...OVER the CLAY, of the SAME LUMP to make ONE VESSEL unto HONOR [spiritual SAVED & INCORRUPTIBLE son], and another unto DISHONOR [fleshly LOST & SINFUL man]Which PERFECTLY describes each of us...
We are ALL (
FIRST in Divine ORDER --
1 Cor 15:46) -- FLESHLY/unbelieving sinners --
Rom 3:23 -- and then,
We are ALL (
SECOND in Divine ORDER) -- SPIRITUAL/believing incorruptible SONS, ...saved by GOD from that SIN --
1 Tim 2:3-6 :Peace:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 04:53:57 AM
You cannot reconcile the logic that God created man perfect and then that perfection made a flawed choice. How does perfection make a flawed choice?
:goodpost:
That's logic even a beginner can see. And I don't mean that in the slightest way negative to you Paul.
Sometimes when people make progress in the studying they start to complicate things so much they undermine their most basic beliefs.
Saying God has unlimited knowledge, intelligence, capabilities, skills, etc automatically forces many interpretations in certain direction.
Just a few I think of right now:
1]
If Father only creates perfect things it basicly mean everything He creates/created is a clone of Himself.
Only Father (+Son +HS) is perfect. Pefect knowledge, intelligence, capabilities, skills, etc
I will speak only for myself but I don't fit in that defenition. And that's an understatement...
2]
If Gods creations show unexpected behaviour for whatever reason then God's knowledge of the future was not perfect.
3]
If the perfect Potter makes a marred pot then it can
only mean the pot was intended marred.
If not the perfect Potter is not perfect because not all of His creatings are as intended.
And according to ET theology Father is worse than a beginning potter. 95% ends up in hell. Meaning 95% of the pots of the not so perfect Potter are marred.
It's very clear there are many marred pots on this world.
That can only mean 2 things: God is a lousy potter or all is as intended
4]
God created a perfect world. Everything He creates is perfect. It was/is perfectly according to plan. It's not perfect in the sense as being as perfect as God Himself.
First of the serpent would never have be able to sucessfully tempted Adam and Eve. The would have resisted like Jesus. Secondly how can a highly sinfull serpent that was sinner from the beginning even be part of a perfect world?
Quote from: jabcat on March 28, 2010, 02:49:38 AM
An age - period of time with a beginning and an end. From some of his studies on aion and old Jewish writings, White Wings suggests that could be from a day to 1 year;
That's to much glory James :winkgrin:
Rabbis mention those numbers. I don't know how they reached that conclusion. Personally I think it's connected to the harvests.
Quote from: QuestionQuestion: Dear Rabbi Maroof,
First of all, I would like to thank you for providing
this space to address Jewish matters. My
question is related to the afterlife, a subject in which
Judaism contains a variety of opinions. From my
understanding (please let me know if I am misunderstanding
any concept), according to some
biblical references, more specifically, Job and
Ecclesiastes, there's a place called "Sheol", an
underground abyss where all souls -whether good
or evil, go. There's also the concept of Gan Eden
(heaven) and Gehinnom (hell), but ultimately all
souls go to heaven after they purge their sins and
wrongdoings, except the extremely wicked and
evil, whose soul will be either ceased from
existence or be eternally under suffering -this is
another topic that has different interpretations. So,
are Sheol and Gehinnon equivalent? Also, after the
resurrection of the souls in the World to Come (in a
physical form), will there be death again?
Thank you,
Carolina Castellanos
Quote from: AnswerResponse: Dear Carolina, These are weighty
and complex questions. Let me begin by emphasizing
that the concept of a soul entering a "place",
whether under or above ground, is not a part of
Jewish theology. The soul is not a physical object
that can travel in space or be situated in a specific
location. Whenever a reference is made to a soul
'going' somewhere, it is intended in a metaphoric,
not a literal, sense.
The Biblical term "Sheol" simply refers to the
grave, the final resting place of the physical body.
Maimonides teaches that the Afterlife is a
metaphysical state of blissful existence that ensues
after the separation of the soul from the body. This
state can only be achieved by an individual who
has perfected his or her soul through the acquisition
of knowledge and positive character traits and the
performance of good deeds. Because the soul has
developed a spiritual, transcendent aspect, it is able
to survive physical death and partake of the greatest
reward imaginable - namely, an unadulterated and
fully satisfying perception of Hashem's wisdom.
It is important to remember that, since we exist in
a physical body during this lifetime and all of our
knowledge is based upon our experiences of the
material world, we cannot possibly imagine what it
would be like to exist metaphysically. This is the
reason why our Sages are compelled to employ
metaphor and analogy when speaking about these
profound matters. Unfortunately, because we are
generally much more comfortable with concrete
imagery than abstract ideas, many people latch
onto the metaphoric depictions of the rabbis as if
they are literal facts. Thus, they develop sensual
concepts of the World to Come that are of necessity
inaccurate. We must accept the reality that the true
nature of the Afterlife is not something that we
have the ability to comprehend during our sojourn
on this Earth.
Wicked people whose entire existence in this
world revolves around material gain and bodily
pleasure have not actualized the metaphysical
dimension of their souls. As a result, their souls
perish with their bodies at the conclusion of their
physical lives. They suffer the ultimate punishment
- the loss of the opportunity to experience the
pleasure of true knowledge and understanding.
In the Messianic era, the righteous will be revived
from the dead and will participate in the establishment
of a utopian society that will be fully aligned
with God's wisdom. Their resurrection will also
afford these great men and women the benefit of
living in an enlightened world community -
something they did not have the opportunity to do
before their deaths. In the end, though, the laws of
nature will continue to reign, and the righteous -
like all other mortals - will eventually pass away
once again, allowing their souls to return to a
blessed state of metaphysical existence for eternity.
I would like to add two important points. The first
point is that our service of Hashem in this world is
inherently rewarding and fulfilling. Any additional
reward is really superfluous to the wise person who
enjoys truth and justice for their own sake.
Similarly, living a materialistic, unenlightened life
is its own punishment. Such a lifestyle frustrates
human beings, denying them the actualization of
their intellectual and spiritual potential while
offering them an endless array of unsatisfying
substitutes that fail to address their uniquely human
needs.
Those who believe that the ultimate reward for
study and righteousness is endless physical
pleasure necessarily maintain that the pleasures of
the body are the ultimate good for human beings,
and that living wisely is a means to the end of
material self-indulgence. Similarly, the belief in
eternal physical torment for the wicked stems from
the assumption that bodily suffering is worse than
the pain of living without wisdom. Both of these
suppositions are contrary to the core teachings of
Judaism. The devoted Jew does not need the
promise of extrinsic reward nor the threat of extrinsic
punishment to entice him or her to live by the
dictates of the Torah. Pleasures and pains of the
body are simply incomparable to the contentment
the soul derives from its pursuit of knowledge and
virtue. By way of analogy, imagine that a wealthy
individual offered you one million dollars cash,
with no strings attached. Would you ask "well,
what's in it for me? What's my reward for accepting
the money?" Any additional reward would pale
by comparison to the receipt of the funds
themselves. In the same way, wisdom is its own
reward, and anyone who asks "what's in it for me"
has not yet experienced its beauty - a beauty so rich
and overflowing that it causes all temporal enjoyments
to seem base and worthless by comparison.
The second point I'd like to emphasize is that the
common notion of "Divine Punishment" is derived
from the theologies of other popular religions, and
not from the teachings of the Torah. In these
religions, God is portrayed as an angry humanlike
being who cannot tolerate the disregard with which
human beings treat Him and His laws. His thirst for
vengeance is so all-consuming that the only way
He can quell his rage is by condemning sinners to
everlasting torment in Hell. This idea is, of course,
based upon the assumption that God takes pleasure
in our morality and religiosity and that He becomes
frustrated and aggressive when we fail to placate
Him with our worship. Advocates of this notion
seem to maintain that God finds comfort in
torturing violators of His commandments for all
eternity.
By contrast, the Jewish view is that righteousness
and wickedness - as well as reward and
punishment - are exclusively for human benefit.
God does not become 'angry' when we sin, nor
does our goodness provide Him any satisfaction.
When we make the right choices, then God may
assist us in furthering our development so that we
more fully actualize the potential for genuine
happiness that He implanted within us - not
because He needs us to continue, but because it is
His will to provide the best for His creatures.
At the same time, when we choose to act immorally,
we do a disservice to ourselves alone. God, in
His infinite mercy, may punish us to correct us and
steer us back onto the proper path, but not because
He takes some sinister, vengeful pleasure in our
suffering. We can see this from the fact that God
only intervenes to punish individuals whom He
knows are sufficiently close to Him to respond
appropriately to censure, as King Solomon wrote,
"The ones God loves, He rebukes." If a person is
so far from God that there is no hope that he will
repent as a result of Divinely imposed punishments,
then God will not implement them.
Hashem does not mete out consequences to make
us suffer for our sins; His purpose in chastising
human beings is to educate and uplift those of us
who are at least potentially receptive to His
message.
From this standpoint, it is clear why subjecting
human souls to everlasting torment in the Hereafter
would be meaningless. Once our lives are over,
all hope of repentance is lost - so what use would
punishment serve after death? Only a religion that
views God in human terms - as a sadistic fatherfigure
who is insatiably angry with his children
and needs to 'vent' - could possibly embrace such
a concept.
I should mention that there are some Rabbis,
such as Nachmanides, who subscribe to the
concept of 'Gehinnom'. 'Gehinnom' is understood
here as a process of purification of the soul -
metaphorically denoted by a 'place' to which it
goes - that occurs before that soul enters its final
state of spiritual existence. We all have ties to the
material world that serve as obstacles to our
spiritual growth, interfering and even tampering
with the proper development of our souls. The idea
of Gehinnom is that a profound experience of
self-awareness and intellectual clarity after death -
revealing, as it would, that any attachment to the
realm of the physical is utterly meaningless - may
enable a person to become freed from some of
these limitations and thus to enjoy a more
complete and gratifying metaphysical existence in
the Next World.
For a more detailed and in-depth discussion of
these ideas, I would encourage you to read
Maimonides' "Introduction to Helek", which can
be purchased in English translation from Moznaim
Publishers (It appears as an appendix in the
volume of the Rambam series entitled "Pirkei
Avot").
You may write Rabbi Maroof at his blog:
http://askrabbimaroof.blogspot.com
continued below
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/516993/jewish/Im-scared-of-going-to-hell.htm
QuoteNow to address your question about hell:
You're probably expecting me to depict a haunting scene of ghosts and goblins. But the Jewish concept of "heaven" and "hell" cannot be more different than the description found in medieval Christian texts or cartoons.
Yes, Judaism believes in punishment and reward in the afterlife. But in Judaism:
Hell is temporary -- not permanent.
Hell is a therapy -- not an imprisonment.
Hell is a consequence -- not a punishment.
Hell is a washing machine -- not a furnace.
Sounds interesting? Click here to read all about this topic.
Let me know if this helps. I await your reply.
Yours truly,
Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282508/jewish/What-Happens-After-We-Die.htm
QuoteSo even the most wicked of souls, say our sages, experiences, at most, twelve months of gehinom, followed by an eternity of heaven.
December 2009
http://www.christianpost.com/blogs/hebrew/2009/12/hell-in-judaism-gehenna-part-1-2-15/index.html
In the Kabbalah, Gehenna is called a "waiting room" for all souls and not just the souls of the sinners.
According to rabbinic literature, people don't stay in Gehenna forever. Gehena is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death.
Rabbi Akiva claims that the longest that one can be there is 12 months.
Judaism
Daniel 12:2 proclaims "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on his or her life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah describes it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 11 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.
According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah. In addition, Subbotniks and Messianic Judaism believe in Gehenna, but Samaritans probably believe in a separation of the wicked in a shadowy existence, Sheol, and the righteous in heaven.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 04:32:09 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 01:21:57 AM
I have long understood repentence and confession to be two different things. Is this error?
Perhaps they are. How will you repent of your sins after your death Theo?
No idea. That is not one of my understandings.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 04:53:57 AM
Quote from: Theo Book
OH! I see what you mean. God, just as the human potter, makes marred (imperfect) pots out of the clay. Ao you agree, God's creation is imperfect. And God therefore is an imperfect creator. Why didn't you say so before? So, if I understand your position,you are saying we are imperfect because our creator is imperfect. Makes perfect sense. Just as that human potter makes marred clay pots. "Just As." Simple. How did I miss that before. Thank you for clearing that up.
That was sarcasm.
God is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.
Quote
You have to realize that this argument has a slippery slope. No matter how it is approached God can be made to look imperfect. EVEN if you decide that mans "FW" is the difference between Gods perfection and imperfection it is still a losing argument.
I consider it the crowning part of creation. God makes us in his image BY gift of free will. (Ooopsy!!! - did I say that?)
Quote
You cannot reconcile the logic that God created man perfect and then that perfection made a flawed choice. How does perfection make a flawed choice?
The same way "... it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]
I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.
Just doesn't work no matter how you hope it does. This would imply indeed that God being perfection may one day make a flawed choice.
Ro 8:20 For to *vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him *Who subjects it, onin expectation
While I often disagree over some things with some of my friends here, I know that we are not completely free in the sense that the word often implies because scripture declares that we are not.
QuoteGod is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.
Don't really disagree with that.
Quote
I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.
God never changes, that doesn't mean he hasn't accounted for all that we do.
It is if perfection makes a flawed choice, if not, then if we were created perfect, then our choices were known and perfect for what God intended.
That is how no person can remain lost forever, all our choices free or not were known and accounted for by God in perfection.
(WH)
QuoteHi Theo... This is probably the manner of discussion you used with Gary Amirault 11 years ago, in your FIRM disagreements with him about UR...
You failed to learn TRUTH offered to you by GOD through Gary Amirault "THEN", ...and you continue the SAME pattern and purpose, in the "NOW". :sigh:
(TB) Really? Based upon what?
(WH) Primarily, your beliefs are ...UNREASONABLE and unaligned with REASON... to name a few:
So you assume Gary and I had this same conversation years ago with the same results? Nope. I refuted Whittemore's 100 reasons to believe USal and was accused of editing Whittemore's statement of doctrine. I didn't, of course, as it is still posted on this site, and number four still says Jesus is the moral Ruler of the earth, so I was not responsible for that statement. I only refuted it. Gary called me a liar and I responded with equal immaturity. I believed we had both grown a bit since then and attempted to re-establish a connection, for the gospel's sake.
(WH)
Quote
(1) you have noted that Adam & Eve were created PERFECT, yet manifested IMPERFECTION...
Rather than make accusations, I will try to approach the issues you raise with examples from scripture. I believe there is a chance you may not properly assess the issue of "perfection."
Paul, for example, quoted Christ as saying... " for my strength is made perfect in weakness."[II Cor 12:9]
And the Hebrew letter says, concerning Christ... And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;[Heb 5:9] The living Jesus was made perfect by dying. Antithesis perfects, if accomplished in one direction, but not in the other. Strength is perfected in weakness, life perfected in death; but weakness is not perfected in strength, nor is death perfected in life. At least, I see no such teaching in scripture.
(WH)
Quote(2) you have noted that GOD makes things that "dont turn out" as intended... reducing His PERFECTION as a Creator...
GOD noted the same thing. I only quoted God. If you disagree, your argument is with him. "...it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]
God can be grieved. Is that considered imperfection? God repents of some decisions he made. Is that imperfection? Are you taking the position that to change one's mind is imperfection in action?
When God said "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed," [Mal 3:6] He was reasoning with disobedient Israel, who accused God of changing the covenant. God is reminding them that it was not HE that changes, but they through diosobedience; God is consistent to his covenant.
Look at the dialogue that led up to the statement that is so often misapplied in 3:6 -
Mal 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law. 10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? 11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. 12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts. 13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
Look at the context in which God says "I change not" -
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. 5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. 7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation...." Israel tried to argue while full of self-righteous indignation. God would not allow them to get away with it.
(WH)
Quote(3) you have noted that IMPERFECTION is that which dicates to PERFECTION -- as GOD must "react" to us, instead of the opposite...
For God to "NOT REACT" would make him NOT GOD. To react is not a sign of weakness, it is an expression of patience. When one does not act until another acts, is called fairness. Otherwise, it is simply an exercise of "I know what they will do and I will go first and stop them." If THAT is right, God would never have created man in the first place.
(WH)
Quote(4) you propose that GOD who is PERFECT is able to "REPENT" for things He has DONE... which denotes Him to CHANGE His mind... which proposes that His mind is as unstable as ours.
I change my mind. Paranoid Skitzophrenics change their mind. Does that make me unstable as the schizophrenic? God changes his mind. That in NO WAY makes his mmind unstable, rather, it shows that we who change our minds are in the image of God who changes his mind when circumstances cause changes in the pattern originally intended.
I think perhaps there is a problem in understanding what it is to say "God's will will be done." There seems to be a concerted belief that God's will cannot be resisted. Tell me, is God known as the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost)?
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." [Joel 2:28-32]
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." [Acts 2:16-21]
There is no place in the bible where another Holy Spirit is introduced as a separate person from the Father. What do you suppose is the meaning of these words? "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." [Acts 7:51] You ask continually "can a man resist God?" When I respond
"yes" I am corrected. I think you need to look again at all the times men resisted God's good will.
(WH)
Quote
(5) in the proposal that Scripture notes that He can "REPENT"... Scripture which says that HE does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- is therefore compromised...
See above response using Malachai chapters 2 and 3.
(WH)
Quote(6) your proposal that GOD brings forth things which do NOT function as INTENDED, arises the thought that within the course of the ETERNAL setting, ...that which is said to be PASSED AWAY, could potentially reappear, due to GOD's shortcomings as a "designer"... Also compromising the Scriptures...
The imagination of men as to what could possibly go wrong, has no influence upon God's creation as to what actually DOES go wrong, all in accord with God's design in giving free will to men. Free will does not mean man can overpower God's will. It means God has established parameters within which man pleases God, and outside of which man displeases God. It is GOD, not priests, who established those parameters. God established other parameters that have nothing to do with moral decisions, but rather establish God as in charge of what man can accomplish; for example, man's space program with a goal to wander the stars, God has established parameters that will limit how far man can go in his heavens. "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men." [Psalm 115:16] Man thinks he can send a Hubble telescope into heaven to gaze on the face of God, but God says otherwise.
But when it comes to moral issues, God made laws and set them in motion, then stood back and watched to see if men would obey or not. "And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no." [Deut 8:2]
(WH) Need more? [/quote]
Well, THOSE certainly seemed inadequate.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 06:40:28 AM
QuoteI do think the eventual salvaton of all is indicated in scripture, but I do not see where age-lasting torment is eliminated from scripture.
Well, let me put it this way as a point where all sides can find a common thread of agreement.
Some believe that this age lasting torment is now on earth. I do not necessarily agree 100%, however I have been in great torment in certain parts of my life so it is something I consider more than I might let on for personal reasons. However, someone who believes that is not "eliminating" age-lasting torment it is merely "WHEN" it occurs that would be in disagreement.
So if you actually agree in the consideration of Salvation for all and Judgment for all, then you agree with people around here more than it may appear.
I have been introduced to several bible teachings I had not previously considered because my focus has always been elsewhere. I still do not think we should lead people to believe there is no punishment after death, as it may have material consequences long after it is too late to alter consequences by repenting.
And I certainly do NOT agree with the teachings of Thayer, nor Whittemore's 100 reasons to believe USAL. THAT doesn't make USAL wrong, it makes those authors reasons wrong, if indeed I am correct.
(wH)
QuoteHi Theo... :cloud9:
6 "AS the CLAY is in the potter's hand [which noted being MARRED in the hand of said potter]... so ARE YE --- IN MINE HAND, ...O house of ISRAEL..."
YHVH is noting an example of CLAY to the hearer... which notes that ALL of its shaping, good or bad, is done by the exampled potter, ...and in the VERY SAME WAY ["AS"] ...ALL of said SHAPING and RESHAPING of ISRAEL [God's people] is done BY the hand of the POTTER... to include the "MARRING" and the "REMAKING" of the "marred clay".
I personally do not see how you cannot see this brother Theo... :mshock:
Well, when an artist begins his canvass, he begins with a certain object in mind as to what it is he wants to express, but sometimes, he has to overpaint what has gone before because it lacks a certain depth of his intent.
Writers change what they have written; pencils have erasers; Carpenters redo; plumbers correct; all manner of efforts are carried out in the hands of men according to intent, but are corrected in the process of finalization. We are not yet what our final "me" will be. It is in the proccess of becoming. We are in the growth area of development.
God directs, manages, corrects, and erases. Many are the civilisations God has destroyed for disobedience; ie,. Saul and the Amelekites, seven nations in Caanan; ancient Mu; Atlantas; etc.
(TB)
QuoteOH! I see what you mean. God, just as the human potter, makes marred (imperfect) pots out of the clay. So you agree, God's creation is imperfect. And God therefore is an imperfect creator.
(WH) On the contrary Theo... I believe GOD ...AND... His Creation are PERFECT concerning the REVEALING of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which is the INTENTION of it.
His KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL are PERFECT... and BOTH shall be COMPLETELY revealed, FIRST the EVIL (temporally)... then the GOOD (eternally)
EVIL must be REVEALED in its most DASTARDLY completeness, in order to be KNOWN completely...
COMPLETE is the meaning of PERFECTION... for that which is COMPLETE, is no longer in need of ALTERATION or ADDITION...
This is WHY the Almighty does NOT intervene in the acts of Evil as performed by man, for it is HIS INTENTION that they be KNOWN for what they ARE...
That's strange. God thinks he has intervened in the acts of evil as performed by man, many times. Look at Nineveh; Egypt; Babylon's tower; Judas's end; all men everywhere are sublimated to God's judgment.
(TB)
QuoteWhy didn't you say so before? So, if I understand your position,you are saying we are imperfect because our creator is imperfect.
(WH) NO, ...and I believe that you do NOT understand my position... [/quote
Apology. THAT was intended to serve as sarcasm, which really has no place in the discussions. Again, Apology.
(WH) Quotefor, YOU observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created PERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... Which is NOT what occured.
I on the other hand observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created IMPERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... for what man is, ...is CORRUPT... and he has YET to put on INCORRUPTION -- 1 Cor 15:53-54
You are mixing flesh corruption with moral issues. Flesh, upon death, corrupts. That is not a moral issue.
(WH)QuoteWhat occured was GOD's DECLARATION of ALL THINGS, ...then MAN has walked (as individuals) the pathway DECLARED by God ...of him within his CORRUPTIBLE IMPERFECTION... PERFECTLY! :nod:
Sorry, I have no idea what you just said.
(WH)QuoteFor it is GOD, Scripture DECLARES...that WORKS ALL THINGS according to HIS OWN WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- and MAN's steps are DIRECTED by GOD, for the PURPOSE of REVEALING the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...
So killing men for displeasing the Lord is all part of the learning proccess?
Gen 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
(WH)QuoteYES He does make "MARRED CLAY VESSELS", as Scripture notes:
Rom 9:21 -- Hath not the POTTER ...POWER ...OVER the CLAY, of the SAME LUMP to make ONE VESSEL unto HONOR [spiritual SAVED & INCORRUPTIBLE son], and another unto DISHONOR [fleshly LOST & SINFUL man]
Which PERFECTLY describes each of us...
We are ALL (FIRST in Divine ORDER -- 1 Cor 15:46) -- FLESHLY/unbelieving sinners -- Rom 3:23 -- and then,
We are ALL (SECOND in Divine ORDER) -- SPIRITUAL/believing incorruptible SONS, ...saved by GOD from that SIN -- 1 Tim 2:3-6
You can't have it both ways.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 28, 2010, 11:42:13 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 04:53:57 AM
You cannot reconcile the logic that God created man perfect and then that perfection made a flawed choice. How does perfection make a flawed choice?
:goodpost:
That's logic even a beginner can see. And I don't mean that in the slightest way negative to you Paul.
Sometimes when people make progress in the studying they start to complicate things so much they undermine their most basic beliefs.
Saying God has unlimited knowledge, intelligence, capabilities, skills, etc automatically forces many interpretations in certain direction.
Just a few I think of right now:
1]
If Father only creates perfect things it basicly mean everything He creates/created is a clone of Himself.
Only Father (+Son +HS) is perfect. Pefect knowledge, intelligence, capabilities, skills, etc
I will speak only for myself but I don't fit in that defenition. And that's an understatement...
2]
If Gods creations show unexpected behaviour for whatever reason then God's knowledge of the future was not perfect.
3]
If the perfect Potter makes a marred pot then it can only mean the pot was intended marred.
If not the perfect Potter is not perfect because not all of His creatings are as intended.
And according to ET theology Father is worse than a beginning potter. 95% ends up in hell. Meaning 95% of the pots of the not so perfect Potter are marred.
QUESTION: Whence the 95%?
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand Israel.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
What % do you think "a great multitude, which no man could number" represents?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 04:51:02 PM
QuoteGod is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.
Don't really disagree with that.
Quote
I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.
God never changes, that doesn't mean he hasn't accounted for all that we do.
Then define "repent" for me.
"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]
God created, God considered, God repented creating, God destroyed. No change?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 06:00:01 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 04:51:02 PM
QuoteGod is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.
Don't really disagree with that.
Quote
I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.
God never changes, that doesn't mean he hasn't accounted for all that we do.
Then define "repent" for me.
"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]
God created, God considered, God repented creating, God destroyed. No change?
Better yet, lets go deeper than one english word that is translated from ancient hebrew and consider scripture and God as a whole.
H5162 nacham naw-kham'
a primitive root;
properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a
favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to
avenge (oneself):--comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).
Seems to me based on the favorable sense of the word in context with Gods character, things were right on schedule.
God knew exactly what must happen.
Theo, 5% is an oft-used estimate of the total of the world's population throughout history that have heard of Jesus Christ and believe on Him in this lifetime (95% "excluded"). So, the scriptures you quoted do indicate something else (further) has occurred, doesn't it? :bigGrin:
willieH: Hi Theo... :cloud9:
This answer will require a few posts due to length... :heat:
POST ONE:In this answer, it is really apparent that you have not fully considered your current observation of
YHVH God... and please know that you have my sympathy... :sigh:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PM
(WH)QuoteHi Theo... This is probably the manner of discussion you used with Gary Amirault 11 years ago, in your FIRM disagreements with him about UR...
You failed to learn TRUTH offered to you by GOD through Gary Amirault "THEN", ...and you continue the SAME pattern and purpose, in the "NOW". :sigh:
(TB) Really? Based upon what?
(WH) Primarily, your beliefs are ...UNREASONABLE and unaligned with REASON... to name a few:
So you assume Gary and I had this same conversation years ago with the same results? Nope. I refuted Whittemore's 100 reasons to believe USal and was accused of editing Whittemore's statement of doctrine. I didn't, of course, as it is still posted on this site, and number four still says Jesus is the moral Ruler of the earth, so I was not responsible for that statement. I only refuted it. Gary called me a liar and I responded with equal immaturity. I believed we had both grown a bit since then and attempted to re-establish a connection, for the gospel's sake.
Well... thanks for the report. I did not ASSUME you had the SAME CONVERSATION,
what I said was that Gary presented TRUTH to you... and you did not accept it at that time... Also,
I said that likely your "manner of discussion" was parallel to this one. :dontknow:
I appreciate your admitted humility... and I commend you for it. :thumbsup:
(WH)
Quote
(1) you have noted that Adam & Eve were created PERFECT, yet manifested IMPERFECTION...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PMRather than make accusations, I will try to approach the issues you raise with examples from scripture. I believe there is a chance you may not properly assess the issue of "perfection."
Paul, for example, quoted Christ as saying... " for my strength is made perfect in weakness."[II Cor 12:9]
And the Hebrew letter says, concerning Christ... And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;[Heb 5:9] The living Jesus was made perfect by dying. Antithesis perfects, if accomplished in one direction, but not in the other. Strength is perfected in weakness, life perfected in death; but weakness is not perfected in strength, nor is death perfected in life. At least, I see no such teaching in scripture.
FIRST -- I didn't "accuse you" bro... You have stated that you believe that Adam & Eve were "created PERFECT"... and I disagree with that ASSUMPTION, for it is NOT WRITTEN that they were "created PERFECT"... :dontknow:
SECOND -- I don't disagree that "antithesis perfects" or that "strength is perfected in weakness"...
THIRD -- Death is CORRECTED in LIFE... Death is the OPPOSITE of LIFE. If there were NO such thing as DEATH... how would we truly KNOW we are "ALIVE"? Or the precious VALUE of that LIFE?
(WH)
Quote(2) you have noted that GOD makes things that "dont turn out" as intended... reducing His PERFECTION as a Creator...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PMGOD noted the same thing. I only quoted God. If you disagree, your argument is with him. "...it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]
The Scripture notes in Revelation --
Rev 4:6 -- that there are four BEASTS --- FULL of EYES --- is that your perception? A creature that is nothing but EYES? Surrounding the THRONE... EYES surrounding the throne? Where does 1 beast end & the other begin, Theo?
The
WORD of GOD, is a COMPLETELY SPIRITUAL document (from Genesis to Revelation).
Your observation on the other hand, is a LITERAL one... which is why your contentions often arise against TRUTH... The Pharisees used this very same approach to
CHRIST as do you here... Bringing to Him, their LITERAL understandings of HIS SPIRITUAL
WORDS...
Trying to use His own
WORD against Him... implying that He was SINNING against it.
Can you really consider GOD to be an ALMIGHTY and ALL WISE (omniscient) being, when you picture Him REGRETTING His own WORK? So much as saying, He "blew it" in His making of this Creation? Then SCOLDS Himself for it? :mshock:
If GOD is truly OMNISCIENT (which I believe that He IS)... and in His
WORD, it is noted that HE does NOT CHANGE --
Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 --
Then the conveyance of the word "REPENTETH" in this verse (which MEANS CHANGE), cannot be as you percieve, otherwise GOD
DOES CHANGE, and His
WORD therefore, could not be RELIED upon as a PERMANENT entity, for the
WORD brought forth ALL THINGS --
John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- and its promises, reports and statements are ALL become subject to REVISION by Him... You believe in a God of "do-overs"... rather than one which is FOUNDED upon such infinite WISDOM, as to be INCAPABLE of ERROR, and therefore NEVER in NEED of CHANGE... ETERNALLY.
Sorry, you are welcome brother Theo, to stand upon this sorrowful, crumbling and shifting SAND... I shall not. I believe He is the UNMOVEABLE, UNCHANGEABLE
ROCK upon which ALL can find both TEMPORAL (this life) and
ETERNAL (life beyond this one)
STABILITY...
If GOD indeed REGRETS His own initiated DOINGS... then what is to prevent Him from CHANGING His mind COMPLETELY about SAVING US, Theo? After all... we have the documentations of -- the Flood, then Sodom & Gomorrah... could either of these have been in any WORSE condition and proximity to SIN than the "modern day" in which we live? What is preventing Him from just "DIVINELY deleting" the whole thing? :dontknow: Who could stop Him? Who would EVER KNOW?
If indeed you are CORRECT, and He was REPRIMANDING Himself for CREATING both Men and Beasts... what kind of MIND, does He (according to YOUR VIEW of Him) really have? More one which is IN NEED of COUNSELLING, for it is UNSTABLE... Yet His
WORD says NO ONE COUNSELS Him! --
Rom 11:34So WHERE (if indeed you are correct), does that leave us poor, in NEED of SAVING, sinners, Theo? I'd say, at the mercy of a being which is Unlimited in Power while being UNSTABLE and PSYCOTIC! :mnah: Able and WILLING to CHANGE His
mind about ANYTHING, at ANY MOMENT... :mshock:
You are welcome to embrace such a FEAR ridden, folly bro... not me!
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PMGod can be grieved. Is that considered imperfection?
That it grieves GOD (which is GOOD), to watch us within the clutches of the UGLY REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL... does not mean that this is IMPERFECTION, and I have not implied that in any of my answers to you.
Grieving is not a mark of IMPERFECTION at all and I have not suggested any such thing...
I have raised 3 children and am amidst raising 10 grandkids... and in that process, many times, I was not displaying IMPERFECTION as sorrow has come upon me in my life endured at the hands of EVIL...
when my daughter got her heart broken, ...when my dad suffered at the hand of CANCER till his death... etc. But these are experiences that must be in the scenario GOD has created... and DECLARED.
GOD did not prevent my daughter's heartbreak, nor did He prevent CANCER from destroying the life of my father... but SUFFERING is part of the PERFECTION process --
Heb 2:10 -- and,
It is the GLORY of GOD to remove forever, such things from us ALL...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PMGod repents of some decisions he made. Is that imperfection? Are you taking the position that to change one's mind is imperfection in action?
FIRST -- GOD does NOT change via REPENTENCE... for REPENTENCE is due of one which has ERRED... You are welcome to behold Him in such a lowly manner, as I said, I shall NOT.
This whole thing is HARD for Him as well as for us, for HE
SO LOVES US ALL --
John 3:16 -- and it is DIFFICULT for a PARENT to watch His children in harms way...
SECOND -- Those who NEED CHANGE, are those who are IMPERFECT, and are IN NEED of "REPENTENCE"... such as ALL MEN... However...
That which is COMPLETE/PERFECT =
YHVH GOD, ...is not in NEED of ANY ALTERATIONS whatsoever... EVER! If the
WORD made ALL THINGS Theo (and I thinking you believe this), then the
WORD made an ERROR in MAKING THEM, ...if REPENTENCE (as applied to man) is IN ORDER for HE that MADE the Creation!
Do you really ascribe to this bro? That
JESUS CHRIST needs CORRECTION? How may we therefore use the
WORD for CORRECTION? --
2 Tim 3:16 -- if in fact it is FALLIBLE? And IN NEED of REPENTENT CHANGE?
Your thinking disqualifes so many Scriptures it boggles the mind to even give place to it... so in my pause, ...might I conclude for now with the rebuke your thinking in the name of
JESUS CHRIST... :sigh:
Also.. I shall break from this communication for a moment... seeya
...willieH :HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi Theo... :happygrin:
POST TWO:Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PMWhen God said "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed," [Mal 3:6] He was reasoning with disobedient Israel, who accused God of changing the covenant. God is reminding them that it was not HE that changes, but they through diosobedience; God is consistent to his covenant.
Look at the dialogue that led up to the statement that is so often misapplied in 3:6 -
Mal 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law. 10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? 11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. 12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts. 13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
Look at the context in which God says "I change not" -
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. 5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. 7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation...." Israel tried to argue while full of self-righteous indignation. God would not allow them to get away with it.
Like MOST THEOLOGIANS... you demand PRINCIPLES remain in CONTEXT... when there is NO BIBLICAL demand to IMPRISON them to it...
Even so... your quotation here does NOT remove the purity of the statement made WITHIN it...
What IN the CONTEXT you have just presented, reduces the statement
"I am YHVH, I CHANGE NOT" ? And are you going to attempt the same with --
Heb 13:8 -- Theo? Shall you also endeavor to find a way to manipulate --
James 1:17 -- and note that somehow, in some way, there IS VARIANCE in the
WORD?That (at any cost) your "theology" might be sustained? What is ultimately most important to you bro? That you might be known as "correct"? Or that you might LEARN the TRUTH? ...Which is it?
That you have endeavored to note the CONTEXT in which
Mal 3:6 rests, ...does NOT in ANY WAY remove or NEGATE, what it --
Mal 3:6 -- states...
Does it really say such as you (wish it to) imply, Theo? --- [in this instance, in My dealings with Israel] I am
YHVH and I CHANGE NOT -- well, ...does it? :mshock:
This is a creation of YOUR IMAGINATION which purposes to IGNORE the ETERNAL PRINCIPLE that the statement implies... and try to use the CONTEXT in which it rests as an ISOLATION of this statement. Hoping to negate it from being applied, OUTSIDE that CONTEXT... :mnah:
(WH)
Quote(3) you have noted that IMPERFECTION is that which dicates to PERFECTION -- as GOD must "react" to us, instead of the opposite...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PMFor God to "NOT REACT" would make him NOT GOD. To react is not a sign of weakness, it is an expression of patience. When one does not act until another acts, is called fairness.
FIRST -- Please don't erect strawmen, Theo... I did not say anything about WEAKNESS... I maintain that the CLAY reacts to the HAND of the POTTER... The POTTER created the CLAY with its inherent trait of RESISTANCE... so the POTTER is NOT "reacting" to the RESISTANT NATURE that HE PROGRAMMED into the CLAY... GOD didn't create ADAM "perfect" and then, say "OOPS... gotta go to plan B because the ding dong, didnt DO as I COMMANDED"...
The Lamb was SLAIN from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD [creation]... for the creation was to BE as it has BECOME... and the SAVIOR was to SAVE it from what it has BECOME.
SECOND -- About "reacting" and "fairness" --- GOD does NOTHING in most cases (excepting the flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, 10 commandments, etc), concerning the EVIL acts of MEN... do you not ask yourself WHY?
He does NOTHING to stop SERIAL KILLERS (against innocence), ...is that
fair?
He does NOTHING to stop TERRORIST Acts (against innocence), ...is that
fair?
He does NOTHING to stop a PEDOPHILE (against innocence), ...is that
fair?
He did NOTHING to stop HITLER (against His own people), ...is that
fair?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PMOtherwise, it is simply an exercise of "I know what they will do and I will go first and stop them." If THAT is right, God would never have created man in the first place.
You have not recognized WHY God created man... So His non-intervention shall escape you as you endeavor to REASON with that non-intervention.
GOD does not intervene, because He has decided what
shall occur in this life concerning
ALL... Which is WHY, when
CHRIST requested, if POSSIBLE, that the "cup" pass... it DID NOT.
end of post 2...
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:21:32 PM
I still do not think we should lead people to believe there is no punishment after death, as it may have material consequences long after it is too late to alter consequences by repenting.
I advocate the pursuit of truth in which there is no fear.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:21:32 PM
And I certainly do NOT agree with the teachings of Thayer, nor Whittemore's 100 reasons to believe USAL. THAT doesn't make USAL wrong, it makes those authors reasons wrong, if indeed I am correct.
Yep, that is reasonable. I do not agree with every thing I read either.
Quote from: jabcat on March 28, 2010, 09:14:19 PM
Theo, 5% is an oft-used estimate of the total of the world's population throughout history that have heard of Jesus Christ and believe on Him in this lifetime (95% "excluded"). So, the scriptures you quoted do indicate something else (further) has occurred, doesn't it? :bigGrin:
Do you really trust in the world's estimates, made with no means to observe, nor to count, nor to verify? I do not consider it an estimate, I consider it a guesstimate.
When I think of all the pagan religions throughout history, and the relative few who have followed YWHW - especially, specifically calling on the name of His Son in this lifetime, then something close to those estimated numbers sounds possible to me. It also may be that quibbling over it could distract from the main focus of what I'm saying. But if it's truly a sticking point for you, then let's look at some other scripture with this question - do you believe the ones who are "few who find it" who travel the narrow path, vs. the majority that follow the broad path to destruction are really the vast numbers no man can count in the Rev. passage? Since no man can come to the Father but through Jesus, how much of the world throughout history (and even presently in this current age/generation) do you believe have heard the name of Jesus with the understanding that He's the Messiah, and have been drawn to the risen Savior by the Holy Spirit? I'd suggest by comparison, not very many. Then we also have the millions in the OT....
Anyway, if you believe that the majority are saved somehow in this lifetime, not believing an even more generous estimate of which I've read (90%) that have never heard, then :dunno2:. "How shall they believe in Him in whom they have not heard?" - quote Apostle Paul.
If the numbers work better for you, take everything I said earlier about the eternal torment of masses of individuals in the presence of the gentle LAMB of God, while He just looks on - with no other purpose than pain and punishment - and then make it 50% of humanity - or even 25%. How many millions of people would that be that Satan was able to "eternally" own and conquer, vs. the other group that Jesus' death is able to redeem, and He just sits there watching so much of His creation being forever tortured? My main points are, what is the nature of the Lamb, and what is the victory that Jesus' death accomplished? What is its depth, and breadth, and height?
(WH)
Quote... Also, I said that likely your "manner of discussion" was parallel to this one. :dontknow:
For the sake of the blessed ears of the saints I will not get into an exchange with you on the "manner of discussion" that goes on on this thread. Suffice it to say, "be quick to listen, slow to speak, and perhaps God will bless us both."
(WH)
Quote
(1) you have noted that Adam & Eve were created PERFECT, yet manifested IMPERFECTION...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PMRather than make accusations, I will try to approach the issues you raise with examples from scripture. I believe there is a chance you may not properly assess the issue of "perfection."
Paul, for example, quoted Christ as saying... " for my strength is made perfect in weakness."[II Cor 12:9]
And the Hebrew letter says, concerning Christ... And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;[Heb 5:9] The living Jesus was made perfect by dying. Antithesis perfects, if accomplished in one direction, but not in the other. Strength is perfected in weakness, life perfected in death; but weakness is not perfected in strength, nor is death perfected in life. At least, I see no such teaching in scripture.
(WH)
QuoteFIRST -- I didn't "accuse you" bro... You have stated that you believe that Adam & Eve were "created PERFECT"... and I disagree with that ASSUMPTION, for it is NOT WRITTEN that they were "created PERFECT"... :dontknow:
Well, I see only one other possibility, unless there is a third (fourth)(fifth) that I do not yet see; and that is God created flawed material. There must then be either a flaw in the material or a flaw in the creation. I don't accept either one. God saw it and pronounced it "very Good." I can't see him saying that about flawed material or flawed effort on his part. How else do you explain it?
(WH)
QuoteTHIRD -- Death is CORRECTED in LIFE... Death is the OPPOSITE of LIFE. If there were NO such thing as DEATH... how would we truly KNOW we are "ALIVE"? Or the precious VALUE of that LIFE?
Sorry. I do not see death as the opposite of life. God is the God of the living. He is the God of abraham, Isaac , Jacob, who are alive though they died. Death is an event that takes place among the living, but it is not the opposite of life.
Life dies? nope! The living die. Living goes on even among those who have died. And God is their God.
(WH)
QuoteThe Scripture notes in Revelation -- Rev 4:6 -- that there are four BEASTS --- FULL of EYES --- is that your perception? A creature that is nothing but EYES? Surrounding the THRONE... EYES surrounding the throne? Where does 1 beast end & the other begin, Theo?
What? If I hand you a glass full of water, do you assume I handed you only water? What happened to the glass? What happened "in your perception" to the beast that is "full of" eyes. Doesn't say is "only eyes."
QuoteThe WORD of GOD, is a COMPLETELY SPIRITUAL document (from Genesis to Revelation).
oh! How does one corrupt a "completely spiritual document?"
(WH)
QuoteCan you really consider GOD to be an ALMIGHTY and ALL WISE (omniscient) being, when you picture Him REGRETTING His own WORK? So much as saying, He "blew it" in His making of this Creation? Then SCOLDS Himself for it? :mshock:
What do YOU think God meant when he said "...it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]
(WH)
QuoteIf GOD is truly OMNISCIENT (which I believe that He IS)... and in His WORD, it is noted that HE does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 --
So you reject the context of Mal 2 and 3 and the explanation of "God does not change?"
o.k.
moving on...
(WH)
QuoteThen the conveyance of the word "REPENTETH" in this verse (which MEANS CHANGE), cannot be as you percieve, otherwise GOD DOES CHANGE, and His WORD therefore, could not be RELIED upon as a PERMANENT entity, for the WORD brought forth ALL THINGS -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- and its promises, reports and statements are ALL become subject to REVISION by Him... You believe in a God of "do-overs"... rather than one which is FOUNDED upon such infinite WISDOM, as to be INCAPABLE of ERROR, and therefore NEVER in NEED of CHANGE... ETERNALLY.
The really sad part is that you consider the works of God's hands faulted, and subject to "do-overs" and constant adjustments. If you see what God really did, you would see a creature reaching to be what God intended, needing guidance, and accepting correction, and striving against almost overwhelming circumstances, just to stand on the brink of heaven and gaze upon him who so loves us. I do not see sinful man as God's faliure, I see sinful man as God's greates possible victory, which is why God will sing at my victory parade, assuming I by his grace and aid, will ultimately overcome the "self" of myself.
Do you know what gives God joy? OUR victories. "The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing." [Zeph 3:17] I hope with all my soul to be there to hear God sing at MY victory over "self" and sin. But I am not simply a flaw in God's creation. I am made in his image, and exercise those gifts he gave me, for better or for worse, but exercise them I do, and receive correction when I misuse those same gifts. When God corrects me, I do not rejoice as my first reaction. It most certainly is my final reaction. I bask in his love, I joy in his light.
(WH)
QuoteIf GOD indeed REGRETS His own initiated DOINGS... then what is to prevent Him from CHANGING His mind COMPLETELY about SAVING US, Theo?
Because he is GOD and cannot break his oath nor his promises. When he "repents him of the evil he intended against Israel" that is not God changing, that is God keeping covenant with Israel, according to the parameters of the covenant even though there becomes a change in their relationship, from blessing to cursing. God changes from blessing Israel to cursing Israel, but it is not a case where God has dropped the agreement; it is a case where God has changed his mind and his approach to a problem, according to his own words.
Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
GOD WILL, AND DOES REPENT
1. Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the
earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
2. Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created
from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping
thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made
them.
3. Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For
mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to
consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath,
and repent of this evil against thy people.
4. Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do
unto his people.
5. Deut 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself
for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is
none shut up, or left.
6. Jdgs 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD
was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their
enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of
their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
7. 1 Sam 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for
he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my
commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all
night.
8. 1 Sam 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his
death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented
that he had made Saul king over Israel.
9. 2 Sam 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon
Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said
to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine
hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah
the Jebusite.
10. 1 Chron 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it:
and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the
evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now
thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of
Ornan the Jebusite.
11. Psalm 90:13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee
concerning thy servants.
12. Psalm 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and
repented according to the multitude of his mercies.
13. Psalm 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will
repent himself concerning his servants.
14. Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn
from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto
them.
15. Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice,
then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
16. Jer 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his
evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto
them because of the evil of their doings.
17. Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey
the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the
evil that he hath pronounced against you.
18. Jer 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all
to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the
LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them?
Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.
19. Jer 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build
you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you
up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.
20. Eze 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I
will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I
repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they
judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.
21. Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn
unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to
anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
22. Joel 2:14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a
blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto
the LORD your God?
23. Amos 7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the
LORD.
24. Amos 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be,
saith the Lord GOD.
25. Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away
from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
26. Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their
evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would
do unto them; and he did it not.
Whether you want to understand God's use of "repentance" as a change, or not, matters not to me. Just do not accuse me of misrepresenting God's logos when I not only tell you God repented, but I show you where God said he repented.
(WH)
QuoteIf indeed you are CORRECT, and He was REPRIMANDING Himself for CREATING both Men and Beasts... what kind of MIND, does He (according to YOUR VIEW of Him) really have? More one which is IN NEED of COUNSELLING, for it is UNSTABLE... Yet His WORD says NO ONE COUNSELS Him! -- Rom 11:34
Just for the record, I did not say he was reprimanding himself. That is YOUR assessment.
(WH)
QuoteSo WHERE (if indeed you are correct), does that leave us poor, in NEED of SAVING, sinners, Theo? I'd say, at the mercy of a being which is Unlimited in Power while being UNSTABLE and PSYCOTIC! :mnah: Able and WILLING to CHANGE His mind about ANYTHING, at ANY MOMENT... :mshock:
I would urge caution on your part my friend, it seems you verge on judging God for things you do not understand.
(TB)
QuoteGod can be grieved. Is that considered imperfection?
(WH) That it grieves GOD (which is GOOD), to watch us within the clutches of the UGLY REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL... does not mean that this is IMPERFECTION, and I have not implied that in any of my answers to you.
Grieving is not a mark of IMPERFECTION at all and I have not suggested any such thing...
Hey, chill out., It was a QUESTION, not an accusation.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PMGod repents of some decisions he made. Is that imperfection? Are you taking the position that to change one's mind is imperfection in action?
(WH) FIRST -- GOD does NOT change via REPENTENCE... for REPENTENCE is due of one which has ERRED... You are welcome to behold Him in such a lowly manner, as I said, I shall NOT.
Please re-read the 26 references posted just above. Explain again where God's choice of expression is to be considered by his "flawed creation" as an "error." I really think you should spend some time reading what scripture says about repentance, and see how many times the concept is used of God. It is HIS words, not mine.
Quote from: jabcat on March 28, 2010, 11:53:03 PM
When I think of all the pagan religions throughout history, and the relative few who have followed YWHW - especially, specifically calling on the name of His Son in this lifetime, then something close to those estimated numbers sounds possible to me. It also may be that quibbling over it could distract from the main focus of what I'm saying. But if it's truly a sticking point for you, then let's look at some other scripture with this question - do you believe the ones who are "few who find it" who travel the narrow path, vs. the majority that follow the broad path to destruction are really the vast numbers no man can count in the Rev. passage? Since no man can come to the Father but through Jesus, how much of the world throughout history (and even presently in this current age/generation) do you believe have heard the name of Jesus with the understanding that He's the Messiah, and have been drawn to the risen Savior by the Holy Spirit? I'd suggest by comparison, not very many. Then we also have the millions in the OT....
Anyway, if you believe that the majority are saved somehow in this lifetime, not believing an even more generous estimate of which I've read (90%) that have never heard, then :dunno2:. "How shall they believe in Him in whom they have not heard?" - quote Apostle Paul.
If the numbers work better for you, take everything I said earlier about the eternal torment of masses of individuals in the presence of the gentle LAMB of God, while He just looks on - with no other purpose than pain and punishment - and then make it 50% of humanity - or even 25%. How many millions of people would that be that Satan was able to "eternally" own and conquer, vs. the other group that Jesus' death is able to redeem, and He just sits there watching so much of His creation being forever tortured? My main points are, what is the nature of the Lamb, and what is the victory that Jesus' death accomplished? What is its depth, and breadth, and height?
I think my intent has slipped paast in the exchange. I do not think the Revelation reference is a completed assessment, rather, I think it show that there will be many more opportunities for souls to hear the glorys of the gospel. If the judgment were to occur today, the numbers would be far different, but I do not see the judgment as occuring today.
I think God was giving the saints hope by showing them that the number of the save will be enormous, beyond our every right to hope, as his gospel is not idle, but living and active.
I think we were pretty close to saying the same things. It's just so easy to get distracted/diverted sometimes :happy3:
willieH: Hi Theo... :heat:
POST THREE:
WH)
Quote(4) you propose that GOD who is PERFECT is able to "REPENT" for things He has DONE... which denotes Him to CHANGE His mind... which proposes that His mind is as unstable as ours.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PM(I change my mind. Paranoid Skitzophrenics change their mind. Does that make me unstable as the schizophrenic? God changes his mind. That in NO WAY makes his mmind unstable, rather, it shows that we who change our minds are in the image of God who changes his mind when circumstances cause changes in the pattern originally intended.
Both of your referred subjects are SINNERS -- YOU and the "schizophenic"... both are subject to CHANGE, for YOU could become "SCHIZOPHRENIC" (which is a mental disease), and the "SCHIZOPHRENIC" could be healed from his condition... :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PM(I think perhaps there is a problem in understanding what it is to say "God's will will be done." There seems to be a concerted belief that God's will cannot be resisted. Tell me, is God known as the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost)?
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." [Joel 2:28-32]
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." [Acts 2:16-21]
There is no place in the bible where another Holy Spirit is introduced as a separate person from the Father. What do you suppose is the meaning of these words? "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." [Acts 7:51]
Neither of these quotations note that the
WILL of GOD was RESISTED... that GOD's COMMANDS are resisted (by the "stiffnecked IN HEART and EARS") -- Hey that is more than obvious... but the
WILL of GOD cannot be RESISTED!
As I have stated throughout this convo, ...it is quite obvious that MEN are RESISTENT to GOD... for several times, I have already acknowledged, that CLAY by NATURE is RESISTANT.
However the
WILL of GOD is
not RESISTED by MEN... for they walk the pathway that GOD DECLARED they would --
Isaiah 46:10 -- (how many times must I repeat this?)...
NO MAN can RESIST the
WILL of GOD... which WILL is clearly stated:
2 Pet 3:9 -- God --
is NOT WILLING that ANY should PERISH, but that ALL should come to REPENTENCE...
and Scripture verifies what Peter said in that verse, in this one:
Rom 9:19 --
Thou wilt say unto me: why doth He yet find fault? For WHO hath RESISTED ...HIS WILL?and this one:
1 Tim 2:4 --
who ...WILL... have ALL men to be SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH...
MAN resists the
COMMAND of GOD by NATURE, ...but NO MAN can RESIST the
WILL of GOD... which is to SAVE
ALL MEN --
1 Tim 4:9-11 -- Rom 5:18-20 -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- 1 John 4:14 & 2:2 -- Luke 19:10 -- John 1:29 -- The TRUTH is written throughout the
WORD of God, Theo ...just open your eyes...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PM(You ask continually "can a man resist God?" When I respond
"yes" I am corrected. I think you need to look again at all the times men resisted God's good will.
Please provide the Scriptures where it is stated that MAN has RESISTED the
WILL of GOD...
(WH)
Quote
(5) in the proposal that Scripture notes that He can "REPENT"... Scripture which says that HE does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- is therefore compromised...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PM(See above response using Malachai chapters 2 and 3.
Already refuted this UNSTABLE nonsense.
(WH)
Quote(6) your proposal that GOD brings forth things which do NOT function as INTENDED, arises the thought that within the course of the ETERNAL setting, ...that which is said to be PASSED AWAY, could potentially reappear, due to GOD's shortcomings as a "designer"... Also compromising the Scriptures...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PM(The imagination of men as to what could possibly go wrong, has no influence upon God's creation as to what actually DOES go wrong, all in accord with God's design in giving free will to men.
Free will is not a discussable premise on Tentmaker, but because you mentioned it... please note in the Scriptures where it SAYS that God GAVE MEN, ...FREE WILL...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PM(Free will does not mean man can overpower Gopd's will. It means God hazs established parameters within which man pleases God, and outside of which man displeases God.
This is nothing but YOUR imagination... there is no Scriptural basis for this. Please note the Scriptures upon which you base this statement. That GOD has established parameters concerning FREE WILL...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PM(It is GOD, not priests, who established those parameters. God established other parameters that have nothing to do with moral decisions, but rather establish God as in charge of what man can accomplish; for example, man's space program with a goal to wander the stars, God has established parameters that will limit how far man can go in his heavens.
More of your imagination NOT FOUND in the
WORD... note the Scriptural basis for this conjecture.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PM("The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men." [Psalm 115:16] Man thinks he can send a Hubble telescope into heaven to gaze on the face of God, but God says otherwise.
FIRST -- There is NO INTENTION whatsoever that notes -- "MAN thinks he can send a Hubble telescope into heaven to GAZE on the FACE OF GOD." Come on Theo... Science doesn't even acknowledge GOD, let alone seek His "FACE"
SECOND -- Do you doubt that the HUBBLE TELESCOPE is actually "
IN SPACE"? They went to the Moon... and if time allows, WILL go to MARS... where is this "BOUNDARY", Theo? ...(book, chapter, verse)
Come on, Theo why not admit it... you are really grabbing at straws which have nothing to do with this convo.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PM(But when it comes to moral issues, God made laws and set them in motion, then stood back and watched to see if men would obey or not. "And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no." [Deut 8:2]
Please brother T... are you really serious? :shakepoint:
God did not "stand back" to "SEE" ...
IF... men would obey", Theo!
He KNEW
before a man took a breath that He would NOT OBEY! and not only did He KNOW, ...He DECLARED it would be SO!
Not only did He KNOW and (before a man lived) DECLARE that MAN [Adam] would NOT OBEY... it is WRITTEN in the UNCHANGING/UNVARYING ---
WORD of GOD that --
Rom 3:23 --
ALL have SINNED and come short of the Glory of God... :dontknow:
This isn't some "idea" that just "happened to occur to the Apostle Paul", Theo... this is a STATIONARY, IMMOVEABLE FACT of the
ETERNAL WORD of GOD...
This includes the COMPLETE number of humanity YET to be BORN...
And I might add... this TRUTH has COME to PASS in ALL as is stated, do you disagree with that too?
(WH)
Quote from: willieHNeed more?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 05:12:15 PMWell, THOSE certainly seemed inadequate.
:Yeahright: ...so "inadaquate" that YOU had no SOUND or Scriptural reply to ANY of them... :pitiful:
...willieH :icon_king:
willieH: Hi Theo... :hithere:
(WH)
QuoteFIRST -- I didn't "accuse you" bro... You have stated that you believe that Adam & Eve were "created PERFECT"... and I disagree with that ASSUMPTION, for it is NOT WRITTEN that they were "created PERFECT"... :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 12:38:01 AMWell, I see only one other possibility, unless there is a third (fourth)(fifth) that I do not yet see; and that is God created flawed material.
This is my WHOLE POINT, Theo... GOD did not create FLAWED material... He created the scenario in which the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL would be REVEALED...
The KNOWLEDGE of EVIL, brings forth IMPERFECTION when LIVED and PRACTICED... until the CREATION... NO EVIL was either done, or lived... There is no documentation that substanciates it.
The KNOWLEDGE of EVIL is also part of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD --
Gen 3:22 -- and because it is HIS KNOWLEDGE it is therefore PERFECT. Because it has FLAWS does not indicate it is IMPERFECT... It indicates that EVIL when PERFECTLY REVEALED displays LIFE in a FLAWED condition, when compared to its OPPOSITE which is GOOD. For GOOD is that which reveals the FLAWS found in the practice and LIVING of EVIL.
GOD is PERFECT and HAS this KNOWLEDGE... so what is truly "flawed" is your perception of HIS KNOWLEDGE...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 12:38:01 AMThere must then be either a flaw in the material or a flaw in the creation. I don't accept either one. God saw it and pronounced it "very Good." I can't see him saying that about flawed material or flawed effort on his part. How else do you explain it?
I have just explained it Theo... The TRUTH is that EVIL, when exposed to GOOD concerning the LIVING of LIFE... is shown to be UNACCEPTABLE... and brings forth -- Pain, sorrow, death, etc... ALL which are CONTRARY to LIFE...
GOD is LIFE --
John 14:6 -- and that which is CONTRARY to LIFE is that which brings forth DEATH...
Don't know how much more of the "merry-go-round" I shall ride with you...
You are welcome to believe that elephants can tie square knots brother Theo... it is really irrelevant to me... I believe I have more than shown the shallow observations you cling to for what they are... God
"standing by to see IF man would disobey" is the PERFECT example of your ignorant REDUCTIONS of Him and His ALMIGHTY, OMNISCIENT and HOLY purpose... which is availed in this course of this world in REVEALING the KNOWLEDGE only HE HAD in the Eternal... the (one) KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which is ROOTED in the SAME TREE -- which is IN the MIDST of the GARDEN... which "garden" is the HEART of
YHVH God --
Gen 2:9 -- Gen 3:22The MIDST is the CENTER... and the CENTER of ALL THINGS is the HEART of
YHVH -- for the
WORD proceeds from Him, and the
WORD is that of which ALL THINGS emerge and CONSIST --
Col 1:17 -- John 1:3To really know the TRUTH of the
WORD, one must delete oneself from being the "CENTER"... and then shall that one KNOW in this submission, that the ONE [
YHVH], which is TRULY in the CENTER -- SO (eternally) LOVES the (entire) WORLD (not just the one which in his/her carnality, is centered upon him/herself within his/her thinking)
:Peace:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Eternal ...with this, therefore, because of this ...there is no dualistic causality, unless there is a beginning. If you keep doing what you have been doing, you will keep getting the same results. Thus, we appear to be in a period (time) of testing to ascertain our fitness, giving the offender a choice; under the guidance of the SPIRIT.
I have no doubt that the Spirit regrets or repents of the sins of men, as any differentiation of these two words were not present in times past. Words acquire new meanings and shed old meanings. However...
"The right, power, or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, and we live within the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong."
One of the fundamental laws of creation contrasted within this life.
peacemaker
So if Adam and Eve were made perfect/good then why the need for a predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God?
Act 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
The question we should ask is... perferct/good for what? Perfect /good for the plan perhaps? :laughing7:
Paul
Quote from: Pierac on March 29, 2010, 07:43:41 AMThe question we should ask is... perferct/good for what? Perfect /good for the plan perhaps? :laughing7:
Exactly :thumbsup:
I wrote the same with an example in this thread. Likely didn't fit certain doctrines :winkgrin:
The words good and perfect are words that have to been seen in context. And the person who speaks the words is of great importance too.
I'm sure all heard the saying: "What's a terrorist (very bad) for some is a freedom fighter (very good) for others."
The same act has the opposite meaning depending who you ask.
I think that little word (good/perfect) has a huge impact on this discussion. Even on whole doctrines.
:2c:
(WH)
QuoteYOU observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created PERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... Which is NOT what occured.
I on the other hand observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created IMPERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... for what man is, ...is CORRUPT... and he has YET to put on INCORRUPTION -- 1 Cor 15:53-54
YOU are confusing moral corruption with bodily corruption which is common to all flesh, man, beast. bird. fish, whatever. "Putting on incorruption" is simply a euphamism for immortality. Not morality.
Hello WW. I want to address just one of your points for now -
(WW)
Quote
4 First of the serpent would never have be able to sucessfully tempted Adam and Eve. The would have resisted like Jesus.
Just a point to ponder. Jesus began his ministry by being tempted of the devil. Jesus was about thirty years old at that time. Thirty years of experience among Pharisees, Saduceees, possibly some Essenes, scribes, priests, highpriests, merchants, robbers, thieves, soldiers, parents and choldren, neighbors, friends, strangers, Romans, and many others. In other words he knew OF temptaton by experience of life.
Adam and Eve were newly made, we don't know how long they were in the garden prior to their being tempted, but we do know they were not tempted by Pharisees, Saduceees, possibly some Essenes, scribes, priests, highpriests, merchants, robbers, thieves, soldiers, parents and choldren, neighbors, friends, strangers, Romans, and many others. Nor did they know fear, sickness, things that go "bump" in the night, and many other sources of temptation. They had no experience.
Just a point of view to consider when you say "they would have resisted like Jesus. They had no experience like Jesus, to fall back on, no one to discuss it with, other than God who gave them instruction and was not "walking with them" at the time the serpent struck. In fact, the serpent waited until they were alone in the garden.
Just a thought.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 07:03:00 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 06:00:01 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 04:51:02 PM
QuoteGod is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.
Don't really disagree with that.
Quote
I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.
God never changes, that doesn't mean he hasn't accounted for all that we do.
Then define "repent" for me.
"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]
God created, God considered, God repented creating, God destroyed. No change?
Better yet, lets go deeper than one english word that is translated from ancient hebrew and consider scripture and God as a whole.
H5162 nacham naw-kham'
a primitive root;
properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a
favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to
avenge (oneself):--comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).
Seems to me based on the favorable sense of the word in context with Gods character, things were right on schedule.
God knew exactly what must happen.
But that wasn't the question. The question (perhaps I was not clear) how does "repentance" fit in with "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 03:09:35 PM
Hello WW. I want to address just one of your points for now -
(WW)Quote
4 First of the serpent would never have be able to sucessfully tempted Adam and Eve. The would have resisted like Jesus.
Just a point to ponder. Jesus began his ministry by being tempted of the devil. Jesus was about thirty years old at that time. Thirty years of experience among Pharisees, Saduceees, possibly some Essenes, scribes, priests, highpriests, merchants, robbers, thieves, soldiers, parents and choldren, neighbors, friends, strangers, Romans, and many others. In other words he knew OF temptaton by experience of life.
Jesus also resited all those temptations. And once there was a first tempation. He passed that test while being unexperienced.
QuoteAdam and Eve were newly made, we don't know how long they were in the garden prior to their being tempted,
Yeah that's a whole new topic :winkgrin:
Quotebut we do know they were not tempted by Pharisees, Saduceees, possibly some Essenes, scribes, priests, highpriests, merchants, robbers, thieves, soldiers, parents and choldren, neighbors, friends, strangers, Romans, and many others. Nor did they know fear, sickness, things that go "bump" in the night, and many other sources of temptation. They had no experience.
Same answer as above. All I will say in this topic there are (strong) indications they where not alone at the age they were tempted. So they might have been tempted but because only the tree was forbidden that's the only thing the Bible reports.
QuoteJust a point of view to consider when you say "they would have resisted like Jesus. They had no experience like Jesus, to fall back on, no one to discuss it with, other than God who gave them instruction and was not "walking with them" at the time the serpent struck. In fact, the serpent waited until they were alone in the garden.
Hypothetical question. Do you think there was no Adam and Eve but Jesus and Eve things would be the same?
QuoteJust a thought.
Ditto :winkgrin:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 03:14:10 PM
But that wasn't the question. The question (perhaps I was not clear) how does "repentance" fit in with "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]
Assume you are a father with a son that's to rebelious for his own good.
So once in a while you punish him. Does that cheer you up? Or perhaps you are a bit sad about it? That's how it think the verse should be read. Father has a masterplan for educating 10 billion children. That requires ups and down, happyness and sadness. It's the way with the best results.
But that doesn't mean Father likes giving a spanking. Even if the endresult fits perfectly in His masterplan.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 03:14:10 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 07:03:00 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 06:00:01 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 04:51:02 PM
QuoteGod is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.
Don't really disagree with that.
Quote
I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.
God never changes, that doesn't mean he hasn't accounted for all that we do.
Then define "repent" for me.
"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]
God created, God considered, God repented creating, God destroyed. No change?
Better yet, lets go deeper than one english word that is translated from ancient hebrew and consider scripture and God as a whole.
H5162 nacham naw-kham'
a primitive root;
properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a
favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to
avenge (oneself):--comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).
Seems to me based on the favorable sense of the word in context with Gods character, things were right on schedule.
God knew exactly what must happen.
But that wasn't the question. The question (perhaps I was not clear) how does "repentance" fit in with "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]
The question is based on what you think a word means, the bible was not found in the english language, it was translated, I pointed out where I stood on that word.
God knows what must happen and the fact that we were created and all our paths are before him means it was his will that we even exist and he was willing to create us and let us go where our will would take us knowing that he has prepared the way for all that man does. That preparation does two things, it retains our individuality while ensuring that our purpose in Gods kingdom is fulfilled.
There is some disagreement with others on that point because some think I am saying that God "reacts" to us as a point of weakness. I am saying that our uniqueness and purpose individually within the collective means that we all learn differently and we all have different purposes. If someone takes that saying we decide what God does and that means I am not holding God high enough, they are wrong and just don't like the way I see it.
He grieves because he knows the pain that is in store for us because of what cannot change.
Just as a loving spirit would want to tear open a cocoon and free the butterfly, those who know the truth understand that you have to let the butterfly go through the struggle.
What has to happen cannot change and because of that God would like for us not to have to go through pain and death, but it must be in order for the inhabitance of the earth to learn righteousness, be saved and reconciled.
Whether we like it or not is irrelevant.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 29, 2010, 03:51:21 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 03:14:10 PM
But that wasn't the question. The question (perhaps I was not clear) how does "repentance" fit in with "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]
Assume you are a father with a son that's to rebelious for his own good.
So once in a while you punish him. Does that cheer you up? Or perhaps you are a bit sad about it? That's how it think the verse should be read. Father has a masterplan for educating 10 billion children. That requires ups and down, happyness and sadness. It's the way with the best results.
But that doesn't mean Father likes giving a spanking. Even if the endresult fits perfectly in His masterplan.
I think " I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them" says a little more than a "spanking."
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 29, 2010, 03:55:59 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 03:14:10 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 07:03:00 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 28, 2010, 06:00:01 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 28, 2010, 04:51:02 PM
QuoteGod is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.
Don't really disagree with that.
Quote
I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.
God never changes, that doesn't mean he hasn't accounted for all that we do.
Then define "repent" for me.
"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]
God created, God considered, God repented creating, God destroyed. No change?
Better yet, lets go deeper than one english word that is translated from ancient hebrew and consider scripture and God as a whole.
H5162 nacham naw-kham'
a primitive root;
properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a
favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to
avenge (oneself):--comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).
Seems to me based on the favorable sense of the word in context with Gods character, things were right on schedule.
God knew exactly what must happen.
But that wasn't the question. The question (perhaps I was not clear) how does "repentance" fit in with "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]
The question is based on what you think a word means, the bible was not found in the english language, it was translated, I pointed out where I stood on that word.
Actually I think what a word means is determined by how it is used throughout scripture. If a word is used consistantly to mean the opposite of how it was used previously, I look elsewhere for deeper understanding. But when God consistently used "repent" in the 26 instances referenced, I think it means "I changed my mind."
And when he followed up on that Gen 6 reference by sending a flood that wiped out all life he had created, excepting only those that were in the ark, I think that tells us his "repenting" was slightly more than simple grieving. It was destructive to the extereme.
Quote
God knows what must happen and the fact that we were created and all our paths are before him means it was his will that we even exist and he was willing to create us and let us go where our will would take us knowing that he has prepared the way for all that man does. That preparation does two things, it retains our individuality while ensuring that our purpose in Gods kingdom is fulfilled.
There is some disagreement with others on that point because some think I am saying that God "reacts" to us as a point of weakness. I am saying that our uniqueness and purpose individually within the collective means that we all learn differently and we all have different purposes. If someone takes that saying we decide what God does and that means I am not holding God high enough, they are wrong and just don't like the way I see it.
He grieves because he knows the pain that is in store for us because of what cannot change.
Just as a loving spirit would want to tear open a cocoon and free the butterfly, those who know the truth understand that you have to let the butterfly go through the struggle.
What has to happen cannot change and because of that God would like for us not to have to go through pain and death, but it must be in order for the inhabitance of the earth to learn righteousness, be saved and reconciled.
Whether we like it or not is irrelevant.
God has no "weakness" nor is he simply "reacting" to man's moves. He continually modifies our course as he directs our steps often in spite of our choices. He will bring us to a realization of his wlll.
What say you?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 04:33:11 PM
God has no "weakness" nor is he simply "reacting" to man's moves. He continually modifies our course as he directs our steps often in spite of our choices. He will bring us to a realization of his wlll.
What say you?
It was his will that we make all the choices that we make because he already knew all we would do and created us despite that. This modification was already done, the perspective that he does this on the fly is our own perspective, but God already knew every choice we would make and knew what must happen in order for us to not be lost.
Something being Gods will does not mean that he loves what we do that he prepared the way for. The passage is from a humans perspective of the truth. God wasn't surprised, He knew all along what he would have to destroy and since that was already known that was what had to happen.
The words you bring up in that passage has nothing to do with God making a mistake and correcting it, it has to do with what he knew he had to do despite the fact that it greived him to have to do it.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 29, 2010, 04:46:10 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 04:33:11 PM
God has no "weakness" nor is he simply "reacting" to man's moves. He continually modifies our course as he directs our steps often in spite of our choices. He will bring us to a realization of his wlll.
What say you?
It was his will that we make all the choices that we make because he already knew all we would do and created us despite that. This modification was already done, the perspective that he does this on the fly is our own perspective, but God already knew every choice we would make and knew what must happen in order for us to not be lost.
Something being Gods will does not mean that he loves what we do that he prepared the way for. The passage is from a humans perspective of the truth. God wasn't surprised, He knew all along what he would have to destroy and since that was already known that was what had to happen.
The words you bring up in that passage has nothing to do with God making a mistake and correcting it, it has to do with what he knew he had to do despite the fact that it greived him to have to do it.
Why is it that men seem always to equate a mind change with error or mistake? God did not make a mistake, nor did he err, he changed his mind.
They are not equated.
If God's will can be frustrated
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(Eph 1:11)
Paul is a liar and the scriptures cannot be trusted
If God's will can be frustrated
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
(Act 4:27-28)
He can't predestine stuff
If God's will can be frustrated
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(Rev 21:5)
God shouldn't say He is making all things new
If God's will can be frustrated
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:32-36)
He needs counseling.... from you maybe?
If God's will can be frustrated
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were createdmaybe, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created sorta through Him and partially for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together mostly. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything almost. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself not really, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:15-20)
We need to add some things to the word
If God's will can be frustrated
"For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'
(Luk 14:28-30)
He will be ridiculed from hell forever
If God's will can be frustrated
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
(Rev 5:13)
John was having delusions
If God's will can be frustrated
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Php 2:9-11)
Paul was also having delusions
If God's will can be frustrated
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:25-28)
All things will not be put under Jesus' feet. Death will not be abolished, but will endure forever. God will never be all in all......................
IF GOD'S WILL CAN BE FRUSTRATED GOD IS NOT GOD
Repentance is necessary in order to receive the gospel(good news) and escape the judgment to
come. The question is not whether we need repent, it is whether or not the punishment lasts forever- or whether it is meted out according to the measure of the transgressions, some being beaten with many stripes, some with few, and no one escaping until they have "paid the last penny"- which is bowing the knee and confessing with the tongue Jesus as Lord, something every creature in heaven, on earth and under the earth will do to the glory of the Father, until all be subjected to Christ, to the end that God will be all in all. This all according to the gospel, written in the scriptures and declared by the prophets and apostles, the mystery hidden from the wise and prudent but revealed unto babes....
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:8-12)
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 05:38:03 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 29, 2010, 04:46:10 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 04:33:11 PM
God has no "weakness" nor is he simply "reacting" to man's moves. He continually modifies our course as he directs our steps often in spite of our choices. He will bring us to a realization of his wlll.
What say you?
It was his will that we make all the choices that we make because he already knew all we would do and created us despite that. This modification was already done, the perspective that he does this on the fly is our own perspective, but God already knew every choice we would make and knew what must happen in order for us to not be lost.
Something being Gods will does not mean that he loves what we do that he prepared the way for. The passage is from a humans perspective of the truth. God wasn't surprised, He knew all along what he would have to destroy and since that was already known that was what had to happen.
The words you bring up in that passage has nothing to do with God making a mistake and correcting it, it has to do with what he knew he had to do despite the fact that it greived him to have to do it.
Why is it that men seem always to equate a mind change with error or mistake? God did not make a mistake, nor did he err, he changed his mind.
They are not equated.
Doesn't matter if you object to what I equated it too, I explained more detail than that one point.
Theo,
And it is still God's choice to have mercy on us all. For who has resisted his will?
Excellent post - except for one little item.
(eaglesway)
Quote
He needs counseling.... from you maybe?
I am struggling here to learn something imjportant, without being turned by every wind of doctrine. So I WILL NOT hasten to my own hurt.
Be kind.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 09:42:06 PM
Be kind.
EVERYONE, not just John - yes, me included (John usually is a pretty kind fella :laughing7:). God's worked me over time after time for letting my flesh take over and be hurtful to others and make a fool of myself. I still do it and I'm still learning, but let's keep working on it :thumbsup:. I believe the message is heard more clearly that way. :HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi TB... :cloud9:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 02:57:25 PM
(WH)QuoteYOU observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created PERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... Which is NOT what occured.
I on the other hand observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created IMPERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... for what man is, ...is CORRUPT... and he has YET to put on INCORRUPTION -- 1 Cor 15:53-54
YOU are confusing moral corruption with bodily corruption which is common to all flesh, man, beast. bird. fish, whatever. "Putting on incorruption" is simply a euphamism for immortality. Not morality.
:omg: "MORALITY" is not, according to you, ...
within... the "putting on of INCORRUPTION"? Are you serious?
FIRST -- it is NOT WRITTEN (except by YOU), that ADAM was created "PERFECT"... This contention of YOURS, is ABSENT from the
WORD, so it takes an ADDITION
by YOU, TO the
WORD ...in order for YOU to establish this UNBIBLICAL belief...
SECOND -- What's new? nothing! ...I disagree with you... You struggle against what is plainly stated, in the name of (fallible) theology and/or, (fallible) religion...
1 Cor 15 is so detailed, that it cannot be missed, ...that is unless the heart beholding, just purposes to NOT SEE it... by creating (as "in the case of ADAM" concerning PERFECTION/IMPERFECTION) THAT, which is NOT THERE...
In this answer, ...you attempt to make 2 separate categories ephasized and noted in the
WORD (immortality/morality) of ONE... just as in all likelihood -- [and I could be assuming incorrectly, so please forgive me if I am] -- You observe the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, as 2 knowledges... when in
TRUTH, ...Good and Evil are TWO sides of the
SAME KNOWLEDGE, rooted in the SAME TREE.
"Immortality" and "morality" are one and the same... holding hands forever... One describes and avails the other... Within ETERNITY as LIFE is found in the ETERNAL state... MORALITY is that which is practiced!
When one [
secondly/SPIRITUALLY -- in DIVINE order] "puts on INCORRUPTION" [adherence to the MORAL/sinless practice of life] this is THAT which begats IMMORTALITY [eternal life] in us while in the SPIRIT --- for [
firstly/NATURALLY -- in DIVINE order] "putting on CORRUPTION" [adherence to the IMMORAL/sinful practice of life] is that which begats MORTALITY [death] in us while in the FLESH... :dontknow:
It is kind of like this bro, ...if we are INSIDE, ...we are NOT, OUTSIDE... and vice versa... If we are heading EAST, we are NOT heading WEST... If we are going UP, we are NOT going DOWN... It really aint that hard, bro...
MORAL CORRUPTION (which is the MIND of the flesh/carnality), is that which is changed to, and "puts on" the "INCORRUPTION" (which is the MIND of
CHRIST/spirituality) spoken of in
1 Cor 15...
1 Cor 15:42-44 --
so also is the resurrection of the dead -- It is SOWN in CORRUPTION, it is RAISED in INCORRUPTION... it is SOWN in DISHONOR, it is RAISED in GLORY, it is SOWN in WEAKNESS it is RAISED in POWER... It is SOWN a NATURAL BODY [flesh] it is RAISED a SPIRITUAL BODY [spirit], there is a NATURAL [corrupt] BODY, and there is a SPIRITUAL [incorrupt] BODY...Believe what you will, brother Theo... for you are where you are, because God has decided your place... as He has for me and my beliefs, accordingly...
The biggest difference between us, is that I do not have to
ADD to the
WORD in order to faciliate what I believe... and you DO... :sigh:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
My apology is sincerely extended, I was attempting more to be ironic, more than hurtful, but nevertheless, I do apologize, peace, John
Told 'ya John wore a white hat :wink3:
Quote from: eaglesway on March 29, 2010, 11:18:58 PM
My apology is sincerely extended, I was attempting more to be ironic, more than hurtful, but nevertheless, I do apologize, peace, John
I am discovering something about myself. I am heartily interested in what you guys have to say, but I am very defensive of what I already think I know. I have made several giant steps recently, and have to slow down in order to retain perspective. You cannot teach a man to parachute by pushing him out of the plane and THEN telling him how to pack his chute.
Patience. I am not only inundated with something new, it is not the same as the issues Gary and I debated so long ago. Most of it is new. It requires time to assimilate into my belief system basically BECAUSE so much of it requires a change in perspective. Remember, I have focussed on trinity doctrine for over fifty years, and this requires a tremendous mental exercise on my part. Some aspects of this need to blend with some aspects of One thing I know tht is common to whatever truth I believe, and that is it must be God's word, and not man's, mine included.
Patience.what I consider basic truths, while other aspects will replace what I thought I knew.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 29, 2010, 11:18:58 PM
My apology is sincerely extended, I was attempting more to be ironic, more than hurtful, but nevertheless, I do apologize, peace, John
Accepted. I also apologize for bringing it to your attention in a public manner. I forget, there is a private message ability here.
I have been keeping an eye on this thread, and am enjoying the ebb and flow of what I see so far. I wanted to chime in concerning the concept of repenting, but to do it from a Hebraic perspective that I think might shed some light on it.
The first instance of the word is thought of to be found in Genesis 6:6:
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And the common idea behind the word is that it has to do with a change of mind, or intent. I would have to disagree with that thinking, based on the original concrete Hebraic meaning of the word Nacham.
The first actual use of the root word Cham is found in Gen 5:29:
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
Believe it or not, the same word means to comfort, as well as to repent, or regret. It is also the word that makes up the name Noah, literally, Nach. How can it mean two seeming opposite things? As I have studied this for my translation of the Tanach, I came up with what I have found to be the concrete meaning that describes both words:
It is the word "Sigh."
More to come...
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 30, 2010, 02:10:08 AM
I have been keeping an eye on this thread, and am enjoying the ebb and flow of what I see so far. I wanted to chime in concerning the concept of repenting, but to do it from a Hebraic perspective that I think might shed some light on it.
The first instance of the word is thought of to be found in Genesis 6:6:
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And the common idea behind the word is that it has to do with a change of mind, or intent. I would have to disagree with that thinking, based on the original concrete Hebraic meaning of the word Nacham.
The first actual use of the root word Cham is found in Gen 5:29:
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
Believe it or not, the same word means to comfort, as well as to repent, or regret. It is also the word that makes up the name Noah, literally, Nach. How can it mean two seeming opposite things? As I have studied this for my translation of the Tanach, I came up with what I have found to be the concrete meaning that describes both words:
It is the word "Sigh."
More to come...
Well, I can certainly picture the Holy Spirit "sighing" as he reads this thread.
I think your rendition may well be right on track, but for another reason. When Jesus said God will send another comfortor, remember how Noah was "comforted?" God sent a dove. Remember how the Holy Spirit was depicted at Jesus' baptism? A dove. God is going to send another dove, i.e., the Holy Spirit, which he gives to those that love him.
What say you?
That fits with some things I've seen and thought too Ron, but didn't ever attempt to develop more fully. Thanks for doing this :thumbsup:
A Sigh of David
For the choir director. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.
Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.
For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.
Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Make me to hear joy and gladness,
Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.
Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.
Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.
Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.
For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.
(Psa 51:1-19)
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 05:38:03 PMWhy is it that men seem always to equate a mind change with error or mistake? God did not make a mistake, nor did he err, he changed his mind. They are not equated.
How do you know that God "repenting" involves God changing His mind (i.e. changing His plan)?
One of the verses about God repenting shows that God planned to repent in the future. You cannot plan to change your plan since the change of plan is part of the plan.
The example I'm thinking of is in Deuteronomy... "God will judge His people
and repent when their power is gone...." So God plans to repent. So God repenting cannot be a change of plan. Rather, it is a change of attitude and action when the conditions are right. God will judge His people in vengance then God will repent. He will stop judging and have mercy.
So "repent" does not have to mean "oops... I need to try something else here since conditions have unexpectedly changed..." Rather it can mean "conditions have changed as I knew they would and so
as planned I'm now going to do this instead of that"
Very edified, says I, good sir!
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 01:07:45 AM
I am discovering something about myself. I am heartily interested in what you guys have to say, but I am very defensive of what I already think I know. I have made several giant steps recently, and have to slow down in order to retain perspective. You cannot teach a man to parachute by pushing him out of the plane and THEN telling him how to pack his chute.
Patience. I am not only inundated with something new, it is not the same as the issues Gary and I debated so long ago. Most of it is new. It requires time to assimilate into my belief system basically BECAUSE so much of it requires a change in perspective. Remember, I have focussed on trinity doctrine for over fifty years, and this requires a tremendous mental exercise on my part. Some aspects of this need to blend with some aspects of One thing I know tht is common to whatever truth I believe, and that is it must be God's word, and not man's, mine included.
Patience.what I consider basic truths, while other aspects will replace what I thought I knew.
Yea, is sucks to know you were a follower of men for over 27years with out question! Just letting others tell you what to believe and follow. Ask me how I know! :wink2: I don't follow any more, I now ask the tough questions and understand U.R. is but baby steps into the truth of God's plan for humanity!
Paul
To finish the thought of my initial post, the idea behind BOTH the Hebrew word for comfort and the Hebrew word for regret is that of sighing. Here is why:
When you sigh, it can be both a positive sigh and a negative one, depending on the context. For example, in the case of the comfort that would be brought by Noah, it would be a sigh of relief.
Gen 5:29 and he calls his trademark Nakh, to say: here he will provide us sighing from our shaping, and from the wrenching of our hands from the soil, which Ieue spit upon. My translation
Notice that it is an emotion expressed. In the case of the regret that God felt because of the wickedness of man, it was a sigh of weariness.
Gen 6:6 and Ieue sighs that he shaped the man in the land; and there is a wrenching toward his inner-shepherd. My translation
Again, this is an emotion expressed. I do not believe it is a change of mind. The idea of repenting as a change of mind is expressed in the Hebrew word Shub. This is the word you would find in a Hebrew version of the New testament wherever the Greek word for repent is used, such as in Acts 2:38. It expresses the idea of pressing back to the tent, or more simply, to return home.
What I see Gen 6:6 saying is that God looked at all the wickeness of man and he expressed deep emotion over it, a sighing of weariness and a wrenching of his heart. We can see this same connection between wickedness and how it affects God here:
Isa 43:24 You have bought me no sweet cane with money, nor have you filled me with the fat of your sacrifices; but you have burdened me with your sins. You have wearied me with your iniquities.
That is one thing that is so amazing about God, is that even though he knows the end from the beginning, he is not emotionally disconnected from what goes on. He is intimately there, through the pain and through the joy of all that goes on.
Ron
Paul said, "That when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ".
It is all there in the Logos, and the Spirit is your guide
You have no need that any man teach you for you have an anointing that teaches you all things
The Holy Spirit will lead you and guide you into all truth
All any human can do is "stir you up by way of reminder"
You have been begotten, not by the will of man, nor the will of the flesh, but by the will of God
You have been begotten by the implantation of the incorruptible seed of the living and abiding Word of God
You have received, in it, in Him, everything pertaining to life and godliness through the true knowledge of Him
The whole tree is hidden in the seed, but it takes time to grow, to be revealed- an oak of righteousness, the planting of the Lord.
Very edifying words Ron
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 02:15:16 AM
I think your rendition may well be right on track, but for another reason. When Jesus said God will send another comfortor, remember how Noah was "comforted?" God sent a dove. Remember how the Holy Spirit was depicted at Jesus' baptism? A dove. God is going to send another dove, i.e., the Holy Spirit, which he gives to those that love him.
What say you?
As one who loves to study the thematic connections and chiastic structures that are found throughout scripture, I applaud you for the connection you found my dear brother! :happyclap: There is definitely a connection between the dove during Noah's day, who fluttered in looking for a place to rest among the restless waters, and the Spirit of God, who fluttered over the watery deep during creation (Gen 1:2) and the ultimate fulfillment of that when the Spirit came to rest on Jesus, and on and in us today as his body, permanently.
Ron
Quote from: eaglesway on March 30, 2010, 05:54:15 AM
You have received, in it, in Him, everything pertaining to life and godliness through the true knowledge of Him
The whole tree is hidden in the seed, but it takes time to grow, to be revealed- an oak of righteousness, the planting of the Lord.
My prayer is that more of us would grasp that simple yet profound truth. :HeartThrob:
Ron
Even as the dove returned with the olive branch in its beak
Even as Christ has received the Holy Spirit without measure and says, "Peace, give I unto thee."
Even as He has sends us as lambs among wolves, anointed by the same Spirit, entrusting us with the ministry of reconciliation....
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:17-18)
Let there be light!
"Hearing the sigh of the wind from the midst of the garden."
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:2)
You will probably notice that this is also the cure for whispering imaginations and sorrow without cause.
peacemaker
Quote from: jabcat on March 30, 2010, 02:15:37 AMThat fits with some things I've seen and thought too Ron, but didn't ever attempt to develop more fully. Thanks for doing this :thumbsup:
I wonder if we are discussing the wrong word. If a word has so many defenition, especially opposite ones, I can't help wondering what defenition to use. And which one was used by Jesus. It's a bit like the aion translations in KJV. Eternal, world etc. But the translation "age" fits in all verses.
So perhaps repent should be replaced by one of the other defenitions and suddenly all verses align...
It's apparently this word - Nacham - which I've looked at before. It appears to me to be one of those "ancient" words that context of many scriptures and precepts helps define. With many of orthodoxy's accepted beliefs (God going to Plan B, man having control, etc.) then "repent" at least seems to almost fit. But in a bigger context of God actually having control of things from the beginning and all the way through, having a Plan A that wasn't thwarted by humanity, etc., then other likely meanings begin to come into focus. I.e., God knows the end from the beginning, and has predestined things according to His will - He's not just "making it up as He goes" - so definitions more like "grieving", "hurting", "sighing", etc. start to perhaps fit better. :2c:
Check it out, and maybe others will develop it more.
IMO, since I believe God knows the end from the beginning; had one plan that included both Jesus being slain from the foundation of the world and that He would eventually reconcile all back to Himself and become All in All, then the following bolded definitions are worth considering;
from nacham and derivatives -
to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
be moved to pity, have compassion
rue, suffer grief
ease oneself
Maybe even "regret" in a sense; as in, if I needed to spank my child, I may regret it, but still need and choose to do it - and would likely have known it would be necessary even before I chose to have him/her.
I must be a defenition that applies to God and man (unless nacham isn't used in all OT verses)
So "have compasion" doesn't seem to fit. => God can have compassion with His creation but I doubt His creation repents out of compassion for God.
"ease oneself" could fit for man but sounds like a changing God..... So option either.
English is not my first language but for me "regret" sounds to much like seeing a fault in your actions => possible for man. Not so for God.
"grief" is only one that fits both God and man. I think the best method is just collect all verses and replace every "repent*" with "grief" as see if the verses still make sense.
*= and all other words translated from nacham.
Hey Whitewings :)
Part of the confusion is that the Hebrew word repent, such as is found in the Greek of Acts 2:38:
Repent, and be baptized...
is not nacham, but shub. The first usage of that word tells us what shub means:
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face will you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For you are dust, and to dust you shall return."
The word picture conveyed is the idea of returning to the tent in which you live, going back home. If my memory serves me right, God is never said to shub, only man is:
Hos 14:1 Israel, return [shub] to Yahweh your God; for you have fallen because of your sin.
Ron
Howdy Ron :hithere:
Hebrew in the Greek?
Do you also have such a word picture for nacham? Gen 6:6
BTW I think this deserves its own thread in Word studies.
Quote from: bobf on March 30, 2010, 04:19:44 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 29, 2010, 05:38:03 PMWhy is it that men seem always to equate a mind change with error or mistake? God did not make a mistake, nor did he err, he changed his mind. They are not equated.
How do you know that God "repenting" involves God changing His mind (i.e. changing His plan)?
One of the verses about God repenting shows that God planned to repent in the future. You cannot plan to change your plan since the change of plan is part of the plan.
The example I'm thinking of is in Deuteronomy... "God will judge His people and repent when their power is gone...." So God plans to repent. So God repenting cannot be a change of plan. Rather, it is a change of attitude and action when the conditions are right. God will judge His people in vengance then God will repent. He will stop judging and have mercy.
So "repent" does not have to mean "oops... I need to try something else here since conditions have unexpectedly changed..." Rather it can mean "conditions have changed as I knew they would and so as planned I'm now going to do this instead of that"
Man does this all the time, making plans that include possibilities, which we call "contingency" plans. "IF" this, "THEN that. We plan to change our plan to meet existing conditions, that change all the time. And
WE learned it from God. And when we invent something for man's use, and it inadvertently kills someone because of a fault, we destroy it, having "changed our mind" about its value to mankind.
I did not put the words in the context, nor did I take part in the translation. I only deal with what is provided by God and scholars, and the mind God gave me for "thinking on these things." Sometimes scholars get it wrong. somethimes they get it right. We only argue the differences.
Quote from: Pierac on March 30, 2010, 05:05:04 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 01:07:45 AM
I am discovering something about myself. I am heartily interested in what you guys have to say, but I am very defensive of what I already think I know. I have made several giant steps recently, and have to slow down in order to retain perspective. You cannot teach a man to parachute by pushing him out of the plane and THEN telling him how to pack his chute.
Patience. I am not only inundated with something new, it is not the same as the issues Gary and I debated so long ago. Most of it is new. It requires time to assimilate into my belief system basically BECAUSE so much of it requires a change in perspective. Remember, I have focussed on trinity doctrine for over fifty years, and this requires a tremendous mental exercise on my part. Some aspects of this need to blend with some aspects of One thing I know tht is common to whatever truth I believe, and that is it must be God's word, and not man's, mine included.
Patience.what I consider basic truths, while other aspects will replace what I thought I knew.
Yea, is sucks to know you were a follower of men for over 27years with out question! Just letting others tell you what to believe and follow.
Where did THAT come from? I did not say I followed men without question. I said it was not an issue with me because I was focussed elsewhere.
QuoteAsk me how I know! [/color] :wink2: I don't follow any more, I now ask the tough questions and understand U.R. is but baby steps into the truth of God's plan for humanity!
Paul
O.K. Here's a "tough question" for you. Where do you fit this in: the scripture that tells you to "resist the devil and he will flee from you?" And,
Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
/edit answer to reply #418
I can agree with that for most of it Theo.
In a way man plans like God.
But man switches behavior, plans, methods, approaches, etc because:
a] a change of mind
b] flawed design
c] external factors
None of that applies to God. He knew how every second of the plan would work out and what actions He would take at that moment.
He had that plan even before creation. So it may seem He changes plan; He just sticks to the plan.
If we would be able to peek into Fathers script we would know that the destruction of Sodom was a planned event (possibly on cosmic scale) Not God being forced to change plan and wipe out evil.
God doesn't know the word IF. God only deals with certainties
So there is difference. Hard to explain for me but I hope you understand it anyway...
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 30, 2010, 05:51:58 AM
To finish the thought of my initial post, the idea behind BOTH the Hebrew word for comfort and the Hebrew word for regret is that of sighing. Here is why:
When you sigh, it can be both a positive sigh and a negative one, depending on the context. For example, in the case of the comfort that would be brought by Noah, it would be a sigh of relief.
Gen 5:29 and he calls his trademark Nakh, to say: here he will provide us sighing from our shaping, and from the wrenching of our hands from the soil, which Ieue spit upon. My translation
Notice that it is an emotion expressed. In the case of the regret that God felt because of the wickedness of man, it was a sigh of weariness.
Gen 6:6 and Ieue sighs that he shaped the man in the land; and there is a wrenching toward his inner-shepherd. My translation
Again, this is an emotion expressed. I do not believe it is a change of mind. The idea of repenting as a change of mind is expressed in the Hebrew word Shub. This is the word you would find in a Hebrew version of the New testament wherever the Greek word for repent is used, such as in Acts 2:38. It expresses the idea of pressing back to the tent, or more simply, to return home.
I have a copy of the Hebrew New Testament, and it is guesswork done by Hebrew Scholars after the fact. My copy was provided by "The Society for Distributing Hebrew Scriptures" in England. Basically, they look to New Testament quotations from the Old Testament Hebrew/Chaldee text, and interpolate, then extrapolate back to what they think is appropriate. The problem I have is, it wasn't inspired by the Holy spirit to present the new Testament to the Hebrew nation in the first generation of Christians.
Quote
What I see Gen 6:6 saying is that God looked at all the wickeness of man and he expressed deep emotion over it, a sighing of weariness and a wrenching of his heart. We can see this same connection between wickedness and how it affects God here:
Isa 43:24 You have bought me no sweet cane with money, nor have you filled me with the fat of your sacrifices; but you have burdened me with your sins. You have wearied me with your iniquities.
That is one thing that is so amazing about God, is that even though he knows the end from the beginning, he is not emotionally disconnected from what goes on. He is intimately there, through the pain and through the joy of all that goes on.
Ron
I do not disagree with your assessment, I only hasten to point out, we debate "free will" as though it is terminology found in scripture, but it is simply our own expression of what is taught. "Free will" is absent as a term of expression in the written account itself. So, to continue to discuss meanings and possibilities as to what was really intended to convey as opposed to how it was translated, seems to me to be an endless exercise in comparing scholars' findings. Whether God "repented" or whether he "sighed" changes nothing as to the results; i.e., he created, he saw, he "reacted," he destroyed. WHATEVER that reaction comprised, the resultant action was the opposite of the beginning action; i.e., creation/destruction.
Have I missed something?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2010, 02:54:45 PM
/edit answer to reply #418
I can agree with that for most of it Theo.
In a way man plans like God.
But man switches behavior, plans, methods, approaches, etc because:
a] a change of mind
b] flawed design
c] external factors
None of that applies to God. He knew how every second of the plan would work out and what actions He would take at that moment.
He had that plan even before creation. So it may seem He changes plan; He just sticks to the plan.
If we would be able to peek into Fathers script we would know that the destruction of Sodom was a planned event (possibly on cosmic scale) Not God being forced to change plan and wipe out evil.
I do not understand where this use of "forced" comes from. God was never "forced" to do anything. He acted, watched, reacted, settled the issue.
QuoteGod doesn't know the word IF. God only deals with certainties
1420 verses /1595 uses of word "if" in scripture, all from God. Do a word search on "if ye continue..." and you will see "if" - "then" conditions throughtout scripture.
See some few examples of God's use of "IF."
1 Samuel 12:14 If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:
1 Kings 2:4 That the LORD may continue his word which he spake concerning me, saying, If thy children take heed to their way, to walk before me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul, there shall not fail thee (said he) a man on the throne of Israel.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 03:09:02 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2010, 02:54:45 PM
/edit answer to reply #418
I can agree with that for most of it Theo.
In a way man plans like God.
But man switches behavior, plans, methods, approaches, etc because:
a] a change of mind
b] flawed design
c] external factors
None of that applies to God. He knew how every second of the plan would work out and what actions He would take at that moment.
He had that plan even before creation. So it may seem He changes plan; He just sticks to the plan.
If we would be able to peek into Fathers script we would know that the destruction of Sodom was a planned event (possibly on cosmic scale) Not God being forced to change plan and wipe out evil.
I do not understand where this use of "forced" comes from. God was never "forced" to do anything. He acted, watched, reacted, settled the issue.
:sigh:
Either something works out as planned and God only should act as planned. => knew it would happen.
Or He just acts on event that took Him by suprise. Then He has 2 choices. Do nothing and let the final plan fail or be forced to react so plan works out fine.
QuoteQuoteGod doesn't know the word IF. God only deals with certainties
1420 verses /1595 uses of word "if" in scripture, all from God. Do a word search on "if ye continue..." and you will see "if" - "then" conditions throughtout scripture.
There are "types" of Ifs.
"If" as in a possibility. => guesswork => humans
"If" as when the time comes it happens. => fact => divine
If I say: If it's gonna rain in 100 days from now I stay indoors I'm saying 2 things. I stay indoors. I have no clue if it will rain.
If God says the same He means: I stay indoors when the rain starts. He already knows it is going to rain in 100 days.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2010, 03:51:27 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 03:09:02 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2010, 02:54:45 PM
/edit answer to reply #418
I can agree with that for most of it Theo.
In a way man plans like God.
But man switches behavior, plans, methods, approaches, etc because:
a] a change of mind
b] flawed design
c] external factors
None of that applies to God. He knew how every second of the plan would work out and what actions He would take at that moment.
He had that plan even before creation. So it may seem He changes plan; He just sticks to the plan.
If we would be able to peek into Fathers script we would know that the destruction of Sodom was a planned event (possibly on cosmic scale) Not God being forced to change plan and wipe out evil.
I do not understand where this use of "forced" comes from. God was never "forced" to do anything. He acted, watched, reacted, settled the issue.
:sigh:
Either something works out as planned and God only should act as planned. => knew it would happen.
Or He just acts on event that took Him by suprise.
Why? We all the time make plans, with contingent possibilities, and when contingencies happen, we are not "surprised" but rather are "prepared" for any circumstance, and react accordingly.
Quote
Then He has 2 choices. Do nothing and let the final plan fail or be forced to react so plan works out fine.
QuoteQuoteGod doesn't know the word IF. God only deals with certainties
1420 verses /1595 uses of word "if" in scripture, all from God. Do a word search on "if ye continue..." and you will see "if" - "then" conditions throughtout scripture.
There are "types" of Ifs.
"If" as in a possibility. => guesswork => humans
"If" as when the time comes it happens. => fact => divine
If I say: If it's gonna rain in 100 days from now I stay indoors I'm saying 2 things. I stay indoors. I have no clue if it will rain.
If God says the same He means: I stay indoors when the rain starts. He already knows it is going to rain in 100 days.
But God said "if" in the manner of "If this" ---"then that."
YOUR assessment was NOT that God used "if" in a conditional fashion, but rather you said "God doesn't know the word "if." How am I to understand anything if you guys keep changing what you are saying?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 04:37:17 PM
Why? We all the time make plans, with contingent possibilities, and when contingencies happen, we are not "surprised" but rather are "prepared" for any circumstance, and react accordingly.
And that's the difference. We make plans all the time. God only made one plan.
QuoteBut God said "if" in the manner of "If this" ---"then that."
YOUR assessment was NOT that God used "if" in a conditional fashion, but rather you said "God doesn't know the word "if." How am I to understand anything if you guys keep changing what you are saying?
If this was a isolated quote I would agree. But how often it has been said in this thread that God doesn't change (His plans), nothing takes Him by suprise, knew all before He even set the plan in motion.
That
for me means that there are no ifs for Father. At least not as a possibility.
I hope you at least understand what I mean. Even if you don't agree. :laughing7:
When reading on this forum always keep in mind that "no changing plans" and "knew all before creation" are like foundation stones of reasoning for many here.
You don't have to agree; but it will make understanding many posts much easier.
:Peace:
Hi Theo
I think it is important to realize that there are two viewpoints being discussed. One is the overall viewpoint of God over the entire course of time through out the ages. One is the perspective of man in his dealings with God, seen through a glass darkly, through the veil of time. There are certain things we can accept, because the scriptures say them, about God and His overall omniscience and omnipotence. I do not draw any conclusion that I do not find witnessed in the scriptures (not to say I fully understand them, rather to say I fully respect them in all my considerations).
There are certain things we can accept because the scriptures say them, about the conditions of our stewardship of time and the free will that God allows us within that stewardship. Therefore, I believe that God "works all things according to the counsel of His will" so that every action and reaction is resolving towards His goal in His administration of the ages- towards His ultimate intention, which is the reconciliation of all. I believe this because I believe the scriptures say so and because the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to the truth of it.
At the same time, the Holy Spirit is teaching me, through the trials and experiences of life and growing in the wisdom of the Logos, that I have a free will and there are consequences to the stewardship I exercise over it. I know that we all have different views on the measure of free will God allows. I believe it is a great degree, a large measure, because, "For freedom Christ has set you free". God's ultimate intention is the free will harmony of every soul in the universe. We, as sons, have received an inheritance with Christ- it is our privilege to function as a priestly kingdom and participate in the reconciliation of all things, having been set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God, into the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
So, "Today", in this "Day that the Lord has made", we must choose whom we will serve, and the consequences of our choices are momentous, even though all things are conditioned by grace. The paradox that is created between the ultimate, over all grace of God and this stewardship He gives men in this life is a paradox that we, in our arrogance, are uncomfortable with- so we try to put it in a "logic box"- the clay trying to put the fine lines of definition on the potter and His ways. I spent years wrestling with such things, and I still do wrestle with them. One thing I have wrestled out of this mystery- "that was hidden in the ages past but is now manifested by the words of the prophets and the apostles", is that you can't take the word and divide it into a force fed systematic theology for the dominion of babes- the naturally minded. Those who prefer the gospel to be completely subjugated to intellect will never perceive it. It is hidden from them. "That seeing they might not perceive, that hearing they might not understand". To this day when Moses is read a veil remains, said Paul to the Corinthians. So also, to this day, when Jesus is read a veil remains for many, because they do not understand what is hidden in plain sight.
"Today, if you hear His voice"
Sometimes we say "if", because we are speaking of conditional transactions between God and man. They are conditional because He has made them so. Yet, as regards the clear unconditional statements of the word about the ultimate purposes of God- we do not say if, because God has not said "if".
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly(not of its own will), but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
(Rom 8:19-23)
This not an accident of free will that God is recovering from. He subjected the creation to futility in a plan conceived before the foundation of the world
Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
We have been called to share a purpose and an inheritance in Christ. Let us labor diligently to enter into His rest.
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention(eu-dokia) which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:9-12)
This purpose is the summing up of all things in Christ, to the end that ultimately God will be all in all(1 Cor 15:22-28)
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:4-7)
We who are faithful in this stewardship of grace, as the first to hope in Christ, have great reward. We will share in the beautiful effulgence of the grace of God as it emerges through the ages until the ages be fulfilled.
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
(1Co 15:22-25)
We see through a glass darkly the specific outworking of this plan of the ages- a few verses here and there give us a broad outline- but we know certain absolute completions will take place, because the Word clearly states them in multiple places.
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Php 2:9-11)
Some would say this is fulfilled as God forces the knee and the tongue just before annihilation or eternal torment- I believe John saw something else
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
(Rev 5:11-14)
Jesus, as the firstborn of creation, has inherited all things. We have been given a share in this inheritance, seated with Christ in the heavenlies, co-heirs . This share is measured according to our stewardship, in the details, but in the broad overview it is the absolute declared will and kind intention of the Sovereign One.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure (eu dokia kind intention/ good will/ good pleasure) for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:15-20)
Remember what the wisdom of God says of itself
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:17-18)
Isa 52:7 How lovely on the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who announces peace And brings good news of happiness, Who announces salvation, And says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"
And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings(eu-aggelo gospel/good message) of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will (eu-dokia good pleasure/kind intention) toward men.
(Luk 2:9-14)
Peace, John
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2010, 11:24:26 AM
I must be a defenition that applies to God and man (unless nacham isn't used in all OT verses)
So "have compasion" doesn't seem to fit. => God can have compassion with His creation but I doubt His creation repents out of compassion for God.
"ease oneself" could fit for man but sounds like a changing God..... So option either.
English is not my first language but for me "regret" sounds to much like seeing a fault in your actions => possible for man. Not so for God.
"grief" is only one that fits both God and man. I think the best method is just collect all verses and replace every "repent*" with "grief" as see if the verses still make sense.
*= and all other words translated from nacham.
Actually, the idea of grieving is already expressed in another word. For example:
Gen 6:6 Yahweh was sorry [nacham: sighed] that he had made man on the earth, and it
grieved[atsab: to be cut] him in his heart. I still think sigh best conveys the idea of nacham, in my opinion.
Sounds good in this verse but not in others.
I'm not very convinced. I looked at some possibilities myself but :thumbdown:
Do you mind if I start a new thread and copy your posts to it?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2010, 02:02:55 PM
Howdy Ron :hithere:
Hebrew in the Greek?
Do you also have such a word picture for nacham? Gen 6:6
BTW I think this deserves its own thread in Word studies.
Yep! Nacham comes out of the parent root word nach, which conveys the picture of the seed (picturing life) with a fence (picturing protection or dividing off). The idea comes from shepherds who stop to rest for the night. Part of what they do is set up an enclosure, a fence of sticks, for the sheep to be protected while they rest. So adding a mem to the end of the word (picturing something strong, such as the sea) completes the idea of sighing, either negatively or positively, because a sigh is a strong exhalation of breath.
Ron
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2010, 07:40:26 PM
Sounds good in this verse but not in others.
I'm not very convinced. I looked at some possibilities myself but :thumbdown:
Do you mind if I start a new thread and copy your posts to it?
Sure bro :). Please share with me what verses you don't find very convincing if you don't mind. :)
Thanks
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 03:02:35 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 30, 2010, 05:51:58 AM
To finish the thought of my initial post, the idea behind BOTH the Hebrew word for comfort and the Hebrew word for regret is that of sighing. Here is why:
When you sigh, it can be both a positive sigh and a negative one, depending on the context. For example, in the case of the comfort that would be brought by Noah, it would be a sigh of relief.
Gen 5:29 and he calls his trademark Nakh, to say: here he will provide us sighing from our shaping, and from the wrenching of our hands from the soil, which Ieue spit upon. My translation
Notice that it is an emotion expressed. In the case of the regret that God felt because of the wickedness of man, it was a sigh of weariness.
Gen 6:6 and Ieue sighs that he shaped the man in the land; and there is a wrenching toward his inner-shepherd. My translation
Again, this is an emotion expressed. I do not believe it is a change of mind. The idea of repenting as a change of mind is expressed in the Hebrew word Shub. This is the word you would find in a Hebrew version of the New testament wherever the Greek word for repent is used, such as in Acts 2:38. It expresses the idea of pressing back to the tent, or more simply, to return home.
I have a copy of the Hebrew New Testament, and it is guesswork done by Hebrew Scholars after the fact. My copy was provided by "The Society for Distributing Hebrew Scriptures" in England. Basically, they look to New Testament quotations from the Old Testament Hebrew/Chaldee text, and interpolate, then extrapolate back to what they think is appropriate. The problem I have is, it wasn't inspired by the Holy spirit to present the new Testament to the Hebrew nation in the first generation of Christians.
I can appreciate that. Yes, any Hebrew rendition of the New testament is not inspired by God. I am just pointing out that the Hebrew word that they understand to be the equivalent of metanoeo (repent) was not nacham, but shub. And according to the usages of both Hebrew words in scripture, at least to me it makes sense why shub would be the correct equivalent.
Quote from: Theo Book
I do not disagree with your assessment, I only hasten to point out, we debate "free will" as though it is terminology found in scripture, but it is simply our own expression of what is taught. "Free will" is absent as a term of expression in the written account itself. So, to continue to discuss meanings and possibilities as to what was really intended to convey as opposed to how it was translated, seems to me to be an endless exercise in comparing scholars' findings. Whether God "repented" or whether he "sighed" changes nothing as to the results; i.e., he created, he saw, he "reacted," he destroyed. WHATEVER that reaction comprised, the resultant action was the opposite of the beginning action; i.e., creation/destruction.
Have I missed something?
I also believe that God reacted to the situation, meaning that he responded by taking action. Whether such a response is the result of God not knowing beforehand how mankind would behave, and therefore decided to do something else other than what he had planned, or whether he already knew exactly how man would behave, and also what he would do, and yet, in the doing, still expressed emotion during it, is what we need to ascertain. That is why I do believe there is a big difference between the idea of repenting, or changing your mind from what you originally wanted to do, and sighing over something that would cause you to sigh.
Am enjoying this discussion with you my brother, :cloud9:
Ron
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2010, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 04:37:17 PM
Why? We all the time make plans, with contingent possibilities, and when contingencies happen, we are not "surprised" but rather are "prepared" for any circumstance, and react accordingly.
And that's the difference. We make plans all the time. God only made one plan.
QuoteBut God said "if" in the manner of "If this" ---"then that."
YOUR assessment was NOT that God used "if" in a conditional fashion, but rather you said "God doesn't know the word "if." How am I to understand anything if you guys keep changing what you are saying?
If this was a isolated quote I would agree. But how often it has been said in this thread that God doesn't change (His plans), nothing takes Him by suprise, knew all before He even set the plan in motion.
That for me means that there are no ifs for Father. At least not as a possibility.
I hope you at least understand what I mean. Even if you don't agree. :laughing7:
When reading on this forum always keep in mind that "no changing plans" and "knew all before creation" are like foundation stones of reasoning for many here.
You don't have to agree; but it will make understanding many posts much easier.
:Peace:
When someone says "God doesn't know the word "if," that goes beyond simply referencing what is common knowledge to those on the board. Please, let us speak the same things, and agree or disagree , on the "same things." God does know th word "if" and builds quite a lot of doctrine and consequence on the supposition that "if," "then consequences," so it becomes a little misleading to say '"God doesn't know the word "if."
Quote from: eaglesway on March 30, 2010, 06:19:29 PM
Hi Theo
I think it is important to realize that there are two viewpoints being discussed. One is the overall viewpoint of God over the entire course of time through out the ages. One is the perspective of man in his dealings with God, seen through a glass darkly, through the veil of time. There are certain things we can accept, because the scriptures say them, about God and His overall omniscience and omnipotence. I do not draw any conclusion that I do not find witnessed in the scriptures (not to say I fully understand them, rather to say I fully respect them in all my considerations).
There are certain things we can accept because the scriptures say them, about the conditions of our stewardship of time and the free will that God allows us within that stewardship. Therefore, I believe that God "works all things according to the counsel of His will" so that every action and reaction is resolving towards His goal in His administration of the ages- towards His ultimate intention, which is the reconciliation of all. I believe this because I believe the scriptures say so and because the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to the truth of it.
At the same time, the Holy Spirit is teaching me, through the trials and experiences of life and growing in the wisdom of the Logos, that I have a free will and there are consequences to the stewardship I exercise over it. I know that we all have different views on the measure of free will God allows. I believe it is a great degree, a large measure, because, "For freedom Christ has set you free". God's ultimate intention is the free will harmony of every soul in the universe. We, as sons, have received an inheritance with Christ- it is our privilege to function as a priestly kingdom and participate in the reconciliation of all things, having been set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God, into the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
So, "Today", in this "Day that the Lord has made", we must choose whom we will serve, and the consequences of our choices are momentous, even though all things are conditioned by grace. The paradox that is created between the ultimate, over all grace of God and this stewardship He gives men in this life is a paradox that we, in our arrogance, are uncomfortable with- so we try to put it in a "logic box"- the clay trying to put the fine lines of definition on the potter and His ways. I spent years wrestling with such things, and I still do wrestle with them. One thing I have wrestled out of this mystery- "that was hidden in the ages past but is now manifested by the words of the prophets and the apostles", is that you can't take the word and divide it into a force fed systematic theology for the dominion of babes- the naturally minded. Those who prefer the gospel to be completely subjugated to intellect will never perceive it. It is hidden from them. "That seeing they might not perceive, that hearing they might not understand". To this day when Moses is read a veil remains, said Paul to the Corinthians. So also, to this day, when Jesus is read a veil remains for many, because they do not understand what is hidden in plain sight.
"Today, if you hear His voice"
Sometimes we say "if", because we are speaking of conditional transactions between God and man. They are conditional because He has made them so. Yet, as regards the clear unconditional statements of the word about the ultimate purposes of God- we do not say if, because God has not said "if".
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly(not of its own will), but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
(Rom 8:19-23)
This not an accident of free will that God is recovering from. He subjected the creation to futility in a plan conceived before the foundation of the world
Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
We have been called to share a purpose and an inheritance in Christ. Let us labor diligently to enter into His rest.
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention(eu-dokia) which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:9-12)
This purpose is the summing up of all things in Christ, to the end that ultimately God will be all in all(1 Cor 15:22-28)
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:4-7)
We who are faithful in this stewardship of grace, as the first to hope in Christ, have great reward. We will share in the beautiful effulgence of the grace of God as it emerges through the ages until the ages be fulfilled.
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
(1Co 15:22-25)
We see through a glass darkly the specific outworking of this plan of the ages- a few verses here and there give us a broad outline- but we know certain absolute completions will take place, because the Word clearly states them in multiple places.
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Php 2:9-11)
Some would say this is fulfilled as God forces the knee and the tongue just before annihilation or eternal torment- I believe John saw something else
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
(Rev 5:11-14)
Jesus, as the firstborn of creation, has inherited all things. We have been given a share in this inheritance, seated with Christ in the heavenlies, co-heirs . This share is measured according to our stewardship, in the details, but in the broad overview it is the absolute declared will and kind intention of the Sovereign One.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure (eu dokia kind intention/ good will/ good pleasure) for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:15-20)
Remember what the wisdom of God says of itself
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:17-18)
Isa 52:7 How lovely on the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who announces peace And brings good news of happiness, Who announces salvation, And says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"
And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings(eu-aggelo gospel/good message) of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will (eu-dokia good pleasure/kind intention) toward men.
(Luk 2:9-14)
Peace, John
I find no issue in this post that requires correction. I might say some of it differently, but that is just my own background, not a bias. Good post. Excellent rendition of scripture.
Just one comment to this brother;
QuoteThat is why I do believe there is a big difference between the idea of repenting, or changing your mind from what you originally wanted to do, and sighing over something that would cause you to sigh.
My focus is in the change in the result of the original intent, fostered by the fact of creation/destruction. I do not see nearly as much justification for total destruction tied to a sigh, as I do tied to a complete reversal of intent. THAT is my objection. Not which Hebrew word best expresses the new testament concept.
QuoteAm enjoying this discussion with you my brother, :cloud9: Ron
As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 12:50:14 AM
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.
God's teaching and growing us all brother. Take what God gives you personally and let go of the rest. :2c:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 12:50:14 AM
Just one comment to this brother;
QuoteThat is why I do believe there is a big difference between the idea of repenting, or changing your mind from what you originally wanted to do, and sighing over something that would cause you to sigh.
My focus is in the change in the result of the original intent, fostered by the fact of creation/destruction. I do not see nearly as much justification for total destruction tied to a sigh, as I do tied to a complete reversal of intent. THAT is my objection. Not which Hebrew word best expresses the new testament concept.
QuoteAm enjoying this discussion with you my brother, :cloud9: Ron
As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.
Am I that "some poor soul" you speak of?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 31, 2010, 03:22:48 AM
Am I that "some poor soul" you speak of?
"GEE WILLIKERS"...Beloved. :mblush:
What if?
"Stay indoors if it rains; an uncertainty at best."
An Anthropopathic expression, ascribing human feelings?
The structure of if – then – or else forms within the tree of decisions. And it is due to our choices to accept or reject, that
we do not see the true nature of things. Thus, let us not impute, if's, ands, or buts to something because of fear or discomfort.
"Life isn't about waiting for a storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain as the SPIRIT leads us."
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on March 31, 2010, 06:32:17 AM
"Life isn't about waiting for a storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain as the SPIRIT leads us."
peacemaker
sublime truth
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is (A) from above, coming down from (B) the Father of lights, (C) with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. (James 1:17)
The wisdom (A) from above is first (B) pure, then (C) peaceable, (D) gentle, reasonable, (E) full of mercy and good fruits, (F) unwavering, without (G) hypocrisy. :gthumbsup:
1 Corinthians 13 :this:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 12:18:46 AM
When someone says "God doesn't know the word "if," that goes beyond simply referencing what is common knowledge to those on the board. Please, let us speak the same things,
Ok, Theo I will try to be more clear in the future. Sometimes just trying to be not so long winded. :winkgrin:
Quote from: peacemaker on March 31, 2010, 06:32:17 AM
"Life isn't about waiting for a storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain as the SPIRIT leads us."
I'm singing in the rain :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2010, 08:36:10 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 12:18:46 AM
When someone says "God doesn't know the word "if," that goes beyond simply referencing what is common knowledge to those on the board. Please, let us speak the same things,
Ok, Theo I will try to be more clear in the future. Sometimes just trying to be not so long winded. :winkgrin:
Hey Theo. This guy from The Netherlands actually does pretty good, especially for someone who learned English from watching The Dukes of Hazzard reruns :laughhand:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2010, 08:38:59 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on March 31, 2010, 06:32:17 AM
"Life isn't about waiting for a storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain as the SPIRIT leads us."
I'm singing in the rain :laughing7:
Now, that's called a
shower bath! :LH:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 31, 2010, 03:22:48 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 12:50:14 AM
Just one comment to this brother;
QuoteThat is why I do believe there is a big difference between the idea of repenting, or changing your mind from what you originally wanted to do, and sighing over something that would cause you to sigh.
My focus is in the change in the result of the original intent, fostered by the fact of creation/destruction. I do not see nearly as much justification for total destruction tied to a sigh, as I do tied to a complete reversal of intent. THAT is my objection. Not which Hebrew word best expresses the new testament concept.
QuoteAm enjoying this discussion with you my brother, :cloud9: Ron
As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.
Am I that "some poor soul" you speak of?
We all are in one way or another, pleading to God for truth and understanding, for the one without the other is not truth, it is simply a set of facts.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2010, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 04:37:17 PM
Why? We all the time make plans, with contingent possibilities, and when contingencies happen, we are not "surprised" but rather are "prepared" for any circumstance, and react accordingly.
And that's the difference. We make plans all the time. God only made one plan.
QuoteBut God said "if" in the manner of "If this" ---"then that."
YOUR assessment was NOT that God used "if" in a conditional fashion, but rather you said "God doesn't know the word "if." How am I to understand anything if you guys keep changing what you are saying?
If this was a isolated quote I would agree. But how often it has been said in this thread that God doesn't change (His plans), nothing takes Him by suprise, knew all before He even set the plan in motion.
That for me means that there are no ifs for Father. At least not as a possibility.
I hope you at least understand what I mean. Even if you don't agree. :laughing7:
When reading on this forum always keep in mind that "no changing plans" and "knew all before creation" are like foundation stones of reasoning for many here.
You don't have to agree; but it will make understanding many posts much easier.
:Peace:
That's kinda like saying "If you eliminate "free will" and "IF conditions" from the scriptures, and remove the bottom half of the "Potter" story, you will have Universal Salvation. THOSE are "foundation stones" of SCRIPTURE. But it is your board.
"..are we chaining scriptures out of context to make the Bible say what is really just in our hearts? A passage of scripture must be interpreted in context.."- Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 02:10:18 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2010, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 04:37:17 PM
Why? We all the time make plans, with contingent possibilities, and when contingencies happen, we are not "surprised" but rather are "prepared" for any circumstance, and react accordingly.
And that's the difference. We make plans all the time. God only made one plan.
QuoteBut God said "if" in the manner of "If this" ---"then that."
YOUR assessment was NOT that God used "if" in a conditional fashion, but rather you said "God doesn't know the word "if." How am I to understand anything if you guys keep changing what you are saying?
If this was a isolated quote I would agree. But how often it has been said in this thread that God doesn't change (His plans), nothing takes Him by suprise, knew all before He even set the plan in motion.
That for me means that there are no ifs for Father. At least not as a possibility.
I hope you at least understand what I mean. Even if you don't agree. :laughing7:
When reading on this forum always keep in mind that "no changing plans" and "knew all before creation" are like foundation stones of reasoning for many here.
You don't have to agree; but it will make understanding many posts much easier.
:Peace:
That's kinda like saying "If you eliminate "free will" and "IF conditions" from the scriptures, and remove the bottom half of the "Potter" story, you will have Universal Salvation. THOSE are "foundation stones" of SCRIPTURE. But it is your board.
"..are we chaining scriptures out of context to make the Bible say what is really just in our hearts? A passage of scripture must be interpreted in context.."- Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries.
It's not my board Theo. I'm a guest just like you.
The main foundation stone is that Father is all knowing etc. So my post has nothing to do with removing things so UR fits.
I see it the other way around. UR doesn't remove foundations stones. Other denominations add foundation stones (build on quicksand)
All denominations agree Father is all knowing. All powerfull. Noone can change His will. Perfect in all His ways Etc.
It's also commonly accepted clay has no desire/will for anything. Also commonly accepted is the fact that the potter controls the clay. Not the other way around.
But still the parable gets twisted into:
- Clay has will/desire.
- The master Potter is a novice instead of a perfect pro.
- Other things that minimize the control of the potter.
Potter and clay is about having control and being controled.
If it was about free will I'm sure I'm sure other parable would have been used. Like a fight between equally strong animals for example. Say lion-Jesus and tiger-satan.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2010, 02:50:41 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 02:10:18 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2010, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 04:37:17 PM
Why? We all the time make plans, with contingent possibilities, and when contingencies happen, we are not "surprised" but rather are "prepared" for any circumstance, and react accordingly.
And that's the difference. We make plans all the time. God only made one plan.
QuoteBut God said "if" in the manner of "If this" ---"then that."
YOUR assessment was NOT that God used "if" in a conditional fashion, but rather you said "God doesn't know the word "if." How am I to understand anything if you guys keep changing what you are saying?
If this was a isolated quote I would agree. But how often it has been said in this thread that God doesn't change (His plans), nothing takes Him by suprise, knew all before He even set the plan in motion.
That for me means that there are no ifs for Father. At least not as a possibility.
I hope you at least understand what I mean. Even if you don't agree. :laughing7:
When reading on this forum always keep in mind that "no changing plans" and "knew all before creation" are like foundation stones of reasoning for many here.
You don't have to agree; but it will make understanding many posts much easier.
:Peace:
That's kinda like saying "If you eliminate "free will" and "IF conditions" from the scriptures, and remove the bottom half of the "Potter" story, you will have Universal Salvation. THOSE are "foundation stones" of SCRIPTURE. But it is your board.
"..are we chaining scriptures out of context to make the Bible say what is really just in our hearts? A passage of scripture must be interpreted in context.."- Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries.
It's not my board Theo. I'm a guest just like you.
The main foundation stone is that Father is all knowing etc. So my post has nothing to do with removing things so UR fits.
I see it the other way around. UR doesn't remove foundations stones. Other denominations add foundation stones (build on quicksand)
All denominations agree Father is all knowing. All powerfull. Noone can change His will. Perfect in all His ways Etc.
It's also commonly accepted clay has no desire/will for anything. Also commonly accepted is the fact that the potter controls the clay. Not the other way around.
But still the parable gets twisted into:
- Clay has will/desire.
- The master Potter is a novice instead of a perfect pro.
- Other things that minimize the control of the potter.
Potter and clay is about having control and being controled.
If it was about free will I'm sure I'm sure other parable would have been used. Like a fight between equally strong animals for example. Say lion-Jesus and tiger-satan.
:2c:
Like I said, if the board opens up to "free will" and we discuss the real theme of the potter/clay and consider all the ramifications of the "IF" conditions of salvation, it begins to paint a far different scenario.
[/quote author=Beloved Servant link=topic=7910.msg93457#msg93457 date=1269994968]
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 12:50:14 AM
Just one comment to this brother;
QuoteThat is why I do believe there is a big difference between the idea of repenting, or changing your mind from what you originally wanted to do, and sighing over something that would cause you to sigh.
My focus is in the change in the result of the original intent, fostered by the fact of creation/destruction. I do not see nearly as much justification for total destruction tied to a sigh, as I do tied to a complete reversal of intent. THAT is my objection. Not which Hebrew word best expresses the new testament concept.
QuoteAm enjoying this discussion with you my brother, :cloud9: Ron
As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.
Theo.
Am I that "poor soul" of which you speak?
Quote from: jabcat on March 31, 2010, 09:02:51 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2010, 08:36:10 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 12:18:46 AM
When someone says "God doesn't know the word "if," that goes beyond simply referencing what is common knowledge to those on the board. Please, let us speak the same things,
Ok, Theo I will try to be more clear in the future. Sometimes just trying to be not so long winded. :winkgrin:
Hey Theo. This guy from The Netherlands actually does pretty good, especially for someone who learned English from watching The Dukes of Hazzard reruns :laughhand:
I think the Dukes learned English from watching Beverley HillBillies "early days."
Hi Theo,
I think this is what other people are trying to say regarding God and "IF".
Its like this. For example:
God says: if you don't repent of your evil ways, you will suffer for them (you will reap what you sow). But if you do repent and turn to me, you will receive peace and joy.
The trick is God already knows which you will choose. God isn't changing his mind or plan depending on what we do, because God already knows what we will do.
Just because we don't know the future, we need to be careful to not assign that quality to God as well. God most definitely knows the future, and already knows what will happen. He even tells us what would happen if we did something different, although He knows we won't do it.
He does this for our benefit so we will learn consequences for actions.
Also, God knows (and declares) that all will eventually turn and confess to Him and bow and praise and worship Him joyfully. So even though for a time we go against God, we will all eventually turn back to Him. God knows this. It is His plan.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 30, 2010, 02:49:46 PM
O.K. Here's a "tough question" for you. Where do you fit this in: the scripture that tells you to "resist the devil and he will flee from you?" And,
Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Tough? Please!
Php 2:13 for
it is God who is at work in you, both
to will and
to work for His good pleasure.
What does Satan/devil have to do with anything? He just follows his own twisted request! Nothing more, nothing less! Satan needs permission to do anything! That permission comes from the GOD of Php 2:13!
Pay attention Theo Book...
CLV Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:
it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity (that's you) to humble them by it.
Ecc 3:10 I see the experience that Elohim gives To the sons of humanity to humble them by it. 11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However,
He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
You want to understand Satan?
Gen 3:1 Now
the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field
which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat
from any tree of the garden'?"
Then you need to understand the Serpent...
was made! The Serpent did not make himself, or his nature! Job teaches you this! (Job 1:6 -7)
Yes, God is not talking to a fallen enemy, but a creation of HIS! God is in control, and Satan is just cocky. Nothing more or less!
Take off your Church glasses Theo!
Paul
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 03:17:29 PM
Like I said, if ...we discuss the real theme of the potter/clay and consider all the ramifications of the "IF" conditions of salvation, it begins to paint a far different scenario.
The verb meaning is to
bring to a desired condition, not solely predicated on one's own acceptance.
Remember, if you are going to plant in the pot, you need to finish the inside.
"It's a heart condition; not a contextualized skin condition."peacemaker
We have been placed in this stewardship by the Father. The adversary is for real, a genuine adversary. The mystery of free will is difficult for those who want to act as if they see from God's perspective- but they don't, for "Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor". The adversary exercises free will as do we. Jesus was manifest to "destroy the works of the devil". We, as fellow workers with Christ, "wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenlies". "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal(i.e. natural, of the intellect and emotion of man), rather they are mighty through God for the puling down of every stronghold and fortress that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God." Therefore, we must clothe ourselves with the full armor of God..... so that we might stand against the wiles of the evil one, and in the evil day, having done all, to stand. This is our calling, even as it was our Lord's, to disarm the principalities and powers, making an open show of them as we participate in the death burial and resurrection of Christ. There is much to do, in the pursuit of sonship, of maturity in Christ, to walk in the Spirit and be seated in the heavenly realms in Christ, above all principality and power. We are called to reconcile men unto God and to overcome the world, the flesh and the devil. Of course, our perspective on God's Sovereign will/purpose will greatly affect our stewardship of this grace in which we stand, but we see through a glass darkly. Therefore, choose you this day whom you will serve. Resist the devil and He will flee from you. Be sober for the purpose of prayer and watch, for our adversary roams about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.
Mod Note - Everyone, please continue to be creative and discuss all your POVs without using the "buzz words" that have created so much tension on the boards in the past. IT CAN BE DONE. There's no reason one can't explain in detail their POV without pushing certain hot buttons and turning things into a mere "terminology debate".
Pierac's post is a good example of how a very strong opinion can be stated, a particular view of the scriptures espoused, without stressing the "free will/sovereignty" terms. You know what he's talking about, but can discuss the merits of that without having a "yes there is, no there's not" food fight. If you believe a certain way, then show why within the scriptures - and perhaps even be open to some new revelation along the way. :happygrin:
On the more serious note of things, this is likely the last request before posts are just edited without further explanation. Please help out with this. Thanks, James.
Post regarding this from March 25. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.msg93087#msg93087
Quote from: Pierac on April 01, 2010, 02:31:51 AM
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
Then you need to understand the Serpent... was made! The Serpent did not make himself, or his nature! Job teaches you this! (Job 1:6 -7)
Does the verse really mean satan was part of the beasts of the field? It almost sounds satan is not part of that "beasts group" but Adam and Eve are because first we are told how smart satan is and some verse later smart satan tricked dumb Adam and Eve (of the field?)
(Note that Jewish scholars see humans as beasts with an extra soul/spirit)
But I think it's not really important if satan is part of the 'made group' in this verse because everyone (I think) agrees God made everything.
The main debate is if satan was created evil or he turned evil by himself (fallen)
:dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on April 01, 2010, 07:57:20 AM
Mod Note - Everyone, please continue to be creative and discuss all your POVs without using the "buzz words"
.....
On the more serious note of things, this is likely the last request before posts are just edited without further explanation. Please help out with this. Thanks, James.
If that's your will James :bowing:
(sorry couldn't resist....)
:tease:
Quote from: peacemaker on April 01, 2010, 06:27:11 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 03:17:29 PM
Like I said, if ...we discuss the real theme of the potter/clay and consider all the ramifications of the "IF" conditions of salvation, it begins to paint a far different scenario.
The verb meaning is to bring to a desired condition, not solely predicated on one's own acceptance.
Remember, if you are going to plant in the pot, you need to finish the inside.
"It's a heart condition; not a contextualized skin condition."
peacemaker
Not really.Jer 18:6" O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
The argument on this board has been that God already decided what use he was going to make of each pot, prior to making it. GOD says he waits till he sees how the pot turns out before the "if" - "then" decision is made.
He says "The timing of my telling what kind of Pot it is, is after I see whether it will obey or not."
Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Quote from: jabcat on April 01, 2010, 07:57:20 AM
Mod Note - Everyone, please continue to be creative and discuss all your POVs without using the "buzz words" that have created so much tension on the boards in the past. IT CAN BE DONE. There's no reason one can't explain in detail their POV without pushing certain hot buttons and turning things into a mere "terminology debate".
Pierac's post is a good example of how a very strong opinion can be stated, a particular view of the scriptures espoused, without stressing the "free will/sovereignty" terms. You know what he's talking about, but can discuss the merits of that without having a "yes there is, no there's not" food fight. If you believe a certain way, then show why within the scriptures - and perhaps even be open to some new revelation along the way. :happygrin:
On the more serious note of things, this is likely the last request before posts are just edited without further explanation. Please help out with this. Thanks, James.
Post regarding this from March 25. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.msg93087#msg93087
o.k. James; Here's scripture, no "buzz" whatsoever, simple statements of what I think is being cosnidered, do with it as you will. I can't quite picture God making you delete it, but who am I to know the mind of God?
A Perspective on Predestination and the If Conditions of Salvation.
Paul says it is God that Justifies [Romans 8:33 ... It is God that justifieth.] and man does not have any say in the matter. God has placed his 'justification' in the realm of 'faith.'
[Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.]
God has said He WILL NOT justify wicked men. [Exo 23:7...for I will not justify the wicked.] and also says anyone who does so is abominable to the Lord [Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.]
God has spoken against the man who says 'all men will be saved, regardless of how evil, or whether they repent, or not.' [Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil...]
God has even said he does not want to hear 'He loves the evil with the good' [Mal 2:17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them...
Judgment, not justification, is the word [Eccl 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.]
The Kingdom of God is NOT OPEN to sinners IN THEIR SIN - They must first REPENT, turn from, quit doing, that which is abominable to God. [1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1 Cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
The Bible doctrine of Predestination is predicated upon God's pre-planning of certain blessings for a class of people; Just as a man may make arrangements for his estate, upon notification that he has just become a father, and is now mindful of his heir; So God pre-arranged an estate to be shared by those who would someday become his heirs. Jesus was His only-begotten son; Christians, who are Jesus' brothers and sisters, are children by adoption, and heirs of the promise to Abraham.
Predestination is NOT a preselection of 'persons,' for God is no "respector" thereunto, but it is a predetermination regarding a class of persons, heirs of the promises, by faith, and obedience thereunto.
Look at the 'If' conditions of Salvation...
WHAT IF ISRAEL FAILS...?
Deu 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
WHAT IF ISRAEL REPENTS?
Deu 4:29 But 'IF' from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, 'IF' thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
'REPENTANCE' FACTORS INTO GOD'S PLAN
Deu 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, 'IF' thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 For the LORD thy God is a merciful God; he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy Fathers which he sware unto them.
WHAT IF ISRAEL FORGETS? - PERISH
Deu 8:19 And it shall be, 'IF' thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
WHAT IF ISRAEL DOES 'NOT OBSERVE'
Deu 28:58 'IF' thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
GOD WILL CHANGE THE FOCUS OF HIS 'REJOICING.'
Deu 28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good....; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you,
A 'CHOICE' OFFERED
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
IF.....
Deu 30:17 But 'IF' thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
THEN.....
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
'CHOOSE'
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore 'CHOOSE' life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
IF ISRAEL FORSAKES GOD - HE WILL HURT AND CONSUME
Joshua 24:20 'IF ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
FORGIVENESS REQUIRES A WILLING OBEDIENCE
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 'IF' ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
'BUT IF.....'
Isaiah 1:20 But 'IF' ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
PERSEVERANCE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A PART OF GOD'S WILL TOWARD THE HEIRS OF SALVATION
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
AND PERSEVERE
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
AND PERSEVERE...
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, 'IF' ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
A SINNER 'SERVES' SIN
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
WHAT DOES JESUS SAY ABOUT 'SERVANTS?'
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
PERSEVERENCE
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, 'IF' a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
CONDITIONAL LOVE OF GOD
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, 'IF' a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
ARE CERTAIN MEN 'PREDESTINED' TO DAMNATION?
Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; 13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. 18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
LOOK AT HOW THE PROMISES FALL TO THE HEIRS, WHO WERE PREDESTINED, BUT WHO STILL RETAINED CHOICES...
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
ABRAHAM BECAME THE FATHER OF THE FAITHFUL THROUGH THE 'RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH,' NOT BY PREDETERMINATION.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
COULD THE PROMISE BE VOIDED? ONLY IF PHYSICAL ISRAEL IS THE HEIR.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are OF THE LAW be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise MADE OF NONE EFFECT:
BUT THE PROMISE WAS TO ALL THE SEED; 'MANY NATIONS'
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all 17 As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations, before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
PHYSICAL ISRAEL ALREADY RECEIVED ALL THE PROMISES MADE TO THEM.
Joshua 23:14 ......and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.
CONDITIONAL UPON HEARING
Jer 26:2 Thus saith the LORD....3 'IF' so be THEY WILL hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.4 And ... 'IF YE WILL NOT' hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you, 6... 'THEN' will I make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.
CONDITIONAL UPON RIGHTEOUSNESS
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,..... he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
Look at how Israel recognized God as Father; [Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.]
Now look to the clay as it is worked in the hands of the potter:
Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jeremiah goes to the potters house to observe;
18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
A marred vessel in the potter's hand:
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
God raises the question of 'when' the decision is made to make a vessel intended for evil:
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
God also raises the question as to when he will decide to make a vessel 'for good.'
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
God warns Israel, by Jeremiah:
Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
What was their answer?
Jer 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
And God's reply?
Jer 18:13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.
15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; 16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head. 17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.
And the Israelites response:
Jer 18:18 Then said they, Come, and let us devise devices against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, and let us smite him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.
It hasn't changed much has it? Men today still say, it doesn't matter how bad you are, God is going to save everyone anyway.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 01, 2010, 12:27:55 PMGOD says he waits till he sees how the pot turns out before the "if" - "then" decision is made.
Or the if then decisions were already written down before creation and God just patiently waits until the foreknow If-Then occurs.
Imo not every question God asks is because He needs info. It's just a way of speaking.
For example when Adam and Eve hid after eating teh fruit they hid themselfs. God ask "where are you?" Do you really believe God didn't know where they hid.
Similar about the bargaining to spare Sodom 50, 40, 30,
Did God allow to be influeced? Or was it just like a Father talking to His children. Sorta like rethoriacl questions.
QuoteLuke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Did God just say? "Well, I have no clue if they are going to sin/repent; but I'll just wait and see and act accordingly."
I think all if-then decisions of mankind are embedded by making the pot.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 01, 2010, 12:44:21 PM
It hasn't changed much has it? Men today still say, it doesn't matter how bad you are, God is going to save everyone anyway.
That's correct.
But saving is a process and saved is a end result.
No evil person will enter heaven. But the saving process means that the wicked will repent and (slowly) become saints. It can be done. Ask Saul/Paul.
So no matter how many if then's there are the only thing that counts is the last "then" :2c:
Little thing on judgement and grace: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5953.msg61991#msg61991
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 01, 2010, 01:04:15 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 01, 2010, 12:44:21 PM
It hasn't changed much has it? Men today still say, it doesn't matter how bad you are, God is going to save everyone anyway.
That's correct.
But saving is a process and saved is a end result.
No evil person will enter heaven. But the saving process means that the wicked will repent and (slowly) become saints. It can be done. Ask Saul/Paul.
So no matter how many if then's there are the only thing that counts is the last "then" :2c:
Little thing on judgement and grace: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5953.msg61991#msg61991
Fair enough! You guys have given me much to ponder. I will look carefully and cosnider, but I still have some issues to resolve.
Thanks guys.
Theo, it is simple really.
The If statements are often made to imply that it is up to man and man alone to meet the conditions.
The reality of scripture is that God prepares the way so that we are ensured the conditions ARE met.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 01, 2010, 03:16:19 PM
Theo, it is simple really.
The If statements are often made to imply that it is up to man and man alone to meet the conditions.
The reality of scripture is that God prepares the way so that we are ensured the conditions ARE met.
I guess that is the issue Paul. "IF" the conditions ARE MET, there would not be any punishments at all, would there?
Quote from: Theo Book on April 01, 2010, 03:34:02 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 01, 2010, 03:16:19 PM
Theo, it is simple really.
The If statements are often made to imply that it is up to man and man alone to meet the conditions.
The reality of scripture is that God prepares the way so that we are ensured the conditions ARE met.
I guess that is the issue Paul. "IF" the conditions ARE MET, there would not be any punishments at all, would there?
Not necessarily. I am talking about how scripture describes the process of ensuring conditions are met.
In proverbs. "All the routes of man are before God and he prepares the way."
"A man devises a way in his heart but God directs his steps."
Man devises a way that might cause a condition to not be met but God directs his steps to make sure he meets the condition.
So it is not that the conditions are already met, it is God preparing the way to ensure man meets the conditions.
I know this to be true in my own life and who am I to come to some conclusion that God is in a box of mine that says he won't do the same for everyone?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 12:50:14 AM
As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.
Theo.
Am I that "poor soul" of which you speak?
Hi Theo. WHEWWWWW!!!!! I wasn't made to delete any of your post!!! :sweat:
But I was so hoping to be able to. :CryBaby: :crywipe:
I'm messin' with you. Sorry if I was too heavy-handed guys, but thanks for helping out. There really are good reasons (unfortunately) to keep this particular topic "within the lines". :pitiful:
P.S. Good posts today guys. Getting many points across effectively.
Hi All,
I was thinking about Theos post about God telling the Israelites what would happen to them if they didn't do this or that, or if they did this or that.
One thing we have to remember is, the Israelites were under the law of Moses and God judged them by their WORKS, which he instituted. The Israelites obeyed God by their works. We should not have any works today because Jesus did all the works for us and the works that are performed now are not our works but Christ that lives in us, he doeth the works. Our will is no longer ours but we are one with God and our wills are one with his will.
We should be like Christ and the Father. Jesus said, "of mine own self I can do nothing". Do we have more will than Jesus had? If we do, then we are not one with God. When we can come to the place where we can say, "of mine own self I can do NOTHING" then we can say "we are all one in Christ" (Gal.3:28). When we can say, it is no longer I that work but Christ that worketh in me" then we have become ONE with God.
If we are in Christ we cannot say, I do this or that. I choose, will, or work. We will say, "For it is God which worketh in me BOTH to WILL and to DO of HIS GOOD PLEASURE" (Phil. 2:13). (Col. 3:3) "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God". If we are dead in Christ how can we have any will, or perform any works?
CHB
Can I make an observation as a member here and not a mod? (I'll go by the rules :winkgrin:)
If we assumed, just for the sake of reasoning things through, that humans TOTALLY get their own way in this lifetime, that it's TOTALLY up to us to make ALL the right decisions - that we not only plan our way but ALSO direct our own steps -that all our choices are TOTALLY within our own power and without ANY set limitations....
Then, when we stand before God, our deeds are judged, and we're found wanting - would that really mean;
that any works of ours that are wood, hay, stubble, won't be burned;
that we won't be saved as by fire;
that God is unable or unwilling that none (the person, the spirit) should perish;
that every knee won't bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Master - IN the Holy Spirit;
that even though He was lifted up, He won't indeed draw everyone to Himself;
that even as in Adam all died, in Christ will all be made alive;
that 'destruction' of the flesh will not be a part of the spirit being saved;
that those who chose the broad way still won't "enter in" through the way of destruction;
that God really doesn't work all things according to the counsel of his will (THELEMA = INTENT);
that the "kings of the earth" (the saints) really won't be bringing their treasures into the city that has gates open day and night;
that all nations of the earth won't be blessed;
that when God's judgment is upon the earth the people will learn righteousness;
that every tongue will praise the Lord;
that God won't be All in All (NOT ALL IN SOME);
that there will not be a restitution of all things? Acts 3:21 ;
that absolutely ALL of the following 600 scriptures that speak of the ultimate redemption of all of God's creation will not, cannot come to pass - because humans were able to foil God's ultimate intentions?
GENESIS
1:31 every - good
3:15 bruise
12:1-3 all families
13:16 dust
14:19 possessor
14:22 possessor
15:5 stars
18:18 all - nations
18:25 judge - right
22:17 stars - sand
22:18 all - nations
24:3 God - heaven - and - earth
24:60 thousands of millions
26:4 stars - all - nations
28:14 dust - all - families
32:12 seed as - sand - cannot
EXODUS
9:29 earth
19:5 all - earth - mine
32:13 seed as - stars
NUMBERS
14:21 all - earth - filled
16:22 spirits - all flesh
27:16 spirits - all flesh
DEUTERONOMY
10:14 heaven - heaven of heavens - earth - all
JOSHUA
2:11 God heaven - and - earth
3:11 Lord - all - earth
3:13 Lord - all - earth
II SAMUEL
14:14 devise means-not expelled
I KINGS
8:43 all people
8:60 all people
II KINGS
19:19 all - kingdoms- know
I CHRONICLES
29:11-14 all
II CHRONICLES
20:6 none - able - withstand
NEHEMIAH
9:6 all
JOB
12:10 all mankind
33:18-24 pit - ransom
PSALMS
9:8 judge - righteousness
16:10 not leave - hell
24:1 earth - they
25:10 all - paths - mercy - truth
32:1-2 imputeth not
33:4-8 all
33:11-15 all
46:10 exalted - heathen
47:2 all
47:7 all
48:2 whole
50:12 world - fullness
59:13 ruleth - ends
65:2 all flesh - ends
65:5 all flesh - ends
66:3-4 enemies - submit - all
67:2 all - all
67:7 all - all
68:18 rebellious - dwell
68:31 unto
69:34 every thing
72:8 dominion - all
72:11 dominion - all
72:17 dominion - all
72:19 dominion - all
82:6 all of you
82:8 all nations
83:18 all - earth
85:1-6 forgiven - covered
86:9 all nations - worship
89:11 fullness
96:1 all - earth
97:5 Lord - whole
97:6 all see
98:3 all
98:4 all - earth
103:9-14 not always chide - father
103:19 ruleth - all
105:8 thousand generations
110:1 enemies - footstool
115:3 pleased
119:64 full - mercy
126:1-6 turn again
130:3 who - word - all
130:5 who - word - all
130:8 who - word - all
135:6 pleased
138:4 all - kings
139:7-12 there
143:1 faithfulness
145:9-17 satisfiest - all
145:21 all flesh
PROVERBS
16:4 for - purged
16:6 for - purged
ISAIAH
2:2-4 all nations
6:3 whole earth
9:7 zeal - perform
11:9 knowledge - cover
14:24-27 purposed
24:22 after - visited
26:29 judgements - learn
40:5 glory - all flesh
42:3-4 judgement - truth - till
45:7 evil - all
45:12-13 evil - all
45:22-25 all - every
46:10 declaring - end - pleasure
46:11 purposed - do it
49:26 all flesh
51:6 not - abolished
52:10 all - see
52:15 shall - see, shall - consider
53:6 iniquity - all
53:11 travail - satisfied
54:5 God - whole earth
54:7-8 mercies - kindness
54:13 all - taught
57:16 not contend - neither - wroth
60:5 shall come
61:11 as - so - all nations
63:17 made - err
65:1 sought - found - not called
66:18 I - gather all
66:23 all flesh
JEREMIAH
3:12 not keep anger
31:31-34 new covenant
32:27 all flesh
32:36-42 evil - good
33:22 sand - seed
LAMENTATIONS
3:31-32 not cast off
EZEKIEL
16:48-55 took - away - good - return (Matt 10:15; 11:23; Jude 6-7)
DANIEL
2:35 stone - filled
7:13-14 all people
7:27 all serve
9:14 evil - righteous - all
9:24 end of sins - reconciliation
HOSEA
1:10 as - sand - cannot
13:14 ransom - redeem
14:4 love - freely - turned
JOEL
2:28 all flesh
MICAH
4:1-5 many nations - every man
7:18-19 delighteth - mercy
HABAKKUK
2:14 knowledge - cover
ZEPHANIAH
2:11 all - every
3:8-9 determination - pure language
HAGGAI
2:7 all nations
ZECHARIAH
14:9 king over all
MALACHI
1:11 Gentiles - heathen
************************************************
NEW TESTAMENT
MATTHEW
1:21 shall save
3:12 thoroughly
5:19 in
5:21-26 till
10:15 more tolerable
11:22-24 more tolerable
12:18 shall show
12:20 judgement unto victory
12:21 Gentiles trust
12:32 world (eon)
12:41-42 judgement - shall condemn
18:8-9 better
18:14 not the will
18:23-35 till he should pay - so likewise
22:44 enemies - footstool
23:13-35 till ye shall say
MARK
3:29 eternal (eonian)
6:11 more tolerable
9:43-37 better
9:49 every one shall
12:36 enemies - footstool
LUKE
1:68 redeemed his
1:77 knowledge - remission
2:10 all people
2:14 peace - goodwill toward
2:30-31 salvation - all people
3:6 all flesh
3:17 thoroughly
6:35 kind
9:56 come - to save
10:12-14 more tolerable
11:31 queen - south
11:32 men - Ninevah
19:10 seek - save - lost
20:38 all live unto him
20:43 enemies - footstool
JOHN
1:3 All things
1:9 every man
1:29 taketh away - sin
3:16 loved - world (mankind)
3:17 world - saved
4:42 Saviour of the world
5:22-23 all - honour - son
6:33 life unto - world
6:37 all - shall come
6:39 lose nothing
6:45 all taught - heard - learned - cometh
6:51 life of - world
12:32 will draw all
12:47 to save - world
ACTS
1:24 knowest - all
2:17 all flesh
2:34-35 foes - thy footstool
3:21 restitution of all things
3:25-26 all - blessed - every one
4:24 made all
7:49 made all
10:15 hath cleansed
10:28 any man
10:34 no respector
10:35 every nation
10:36 Lord of all
11:9 hath cleansed
13:47 ends of the earth
14:15 made - all things
17:24-31 all
24:15 hope - just and unjust
ROMANS
2:5 righteous
2:6 every man
4:13-18 heir of the world - all the seed
5:6-19 ungodly - while - reconciled- free gift - all men - life
8:20-22 made subject - not willingly - shall - whole creation
8:32 for us all
8:35-39 who - neither - nor
9:9-26 purpose of God
10:12 Lord over all
10:20 found - sought me not
11:11 fall - salvation
11:12 fall - fulness
11:15 casting away - reconcilinc - world - receiving - life
11:26 all - saved
11:29 without (god's) repentance
11:32 all - unbelief - mercy upon all
11:36 of - through - to - all things
14:10-12 all - every - every one
15:21 shall see - shall understand
I CORINTHIANS
3:11-15 saved - by fire
4:5 every man
5:1-5 destruction - flesh - spirit - saved
8:6 all things
10:26-28 earth - and the fullness
11:3 head - every man
11:7 man is image of God
11:12 all things of God
12:6 all in all
12:7,11 every man
15:22 for as - even so
15:23 every man
15:25 all enemies
15:26 enemy - destroyed
15:28 God - all in all
15:38-43 every seed - dishonor
15:49 as we - we shall
15:51 all be changed
II CORINTHIANS
5:14-21 reconciling - world - not imputing
GALATIONS
3:8 all nations
EPHESIANS
1:4-11 purposed - gather together - all
2:5 hath quickened
2:14-16 reconcile
3:9 all - all
3:15 whole family - named
4:6 all
4:8 led captivity captive
4:10 fill all
4:13 we all
PHILIPPIANS
2:10-11 every
3:21 subdue all
COLOSSIANS
1:16-17 all - for him
1:20 reconcile all
1:28 every man perfect
3:11 all
I THESSALONIANS
3:12 all
II THESSALONIANS
2:8 Wicked - destroyed
I TIMOTHY
1:15 to save
1:18-20 may learn
2:1-6 all
4:10-11 all men - command and teach
6:13 God - quickeneth all things
II TIMOTHY
1:9 hath - purposed - given - before
TITUS
2:11 all men
2:14 all iniquity
3:4 toward man
3:5 regeneration - renewing
3:6 which he shed on
HEBREWS
1:2-3 all
1:13 enemies - footstool
2:8 all - subjection
2:9 every man
2:10 all things
2:14 destroy - devil
2:17 reconciliation
3:4 built all
8:10-11 not teach - all shall know
8:12 no more
9:26 put away sin
10:10 once for all
10:17 no more
11:12 innumerable
12:10-11 chastened - profit
I PETER
3:18-20 unjust - spirits - disobedient
4:6 preached - to - dead
II PETER
3:9 not willing - all
I JOHN
2:2 propitiation - sins - whole world
3:5 take away
3:8 destroy the works
4:10 propitiation
4:14 Saviour of the world
JUDE
1:6 unto (until)
REVELATION
1:5 washed - our sins
1:7 every eye - they - which pierced him - all
3:9 I will make - come - worship - know
4:11 all - for - pleasure
5:13 every creature
7:9-10 no man could number
10:6 created - the things
11:7-13 kill them; they - rejoice; fear fell; gave glory - God
11:15 kingdoms of - world - become
14:6 preached - to every
15:1 last - filled up
15:4 all nations
15:8 plagues - fulfilled
16:7 true and righteous - judgments
20:13 judged every man
20:14 death and hell - cast into - lake of fire - second death
21:5 all things new
22:2 healing of the nations
22:3 no more curse
22:12 my reward - to - every man
22:17 come - freely
So what's the bottom line?
He is the Author and Finisher, Alpha and Omega, First and Last, Creator and Redeemer, Beginning and the End, of Him, Through Him, and to Him are ALL things. He is/will be All in Al
Only by His grace, James.
Quote from: CHB on April 01, 2010, 09:01:19 PMI was thinking about Theos post about God telling the Israelites what would happen to them if they didn't do this or that, or if they did this or that.
One thing we have to remember is, the Israelites were under the law of Moses and God judged them by their WORKS,
.............
We should be like Christ and the Father.
Jesus said, "of mine own self I can do nothing". Do we have more will than Jesus had? If we do, then we are not one with God. When we can come to the place where we can say, "of mine own self I can do NOTHING" then we can say "we are all one in Christ" (Gal.3:28). When we can say, it is no longer I that work but Christ that worketh in me" then we have become ONE with God.
No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul :mshock:
Quote from: jabcat on April 01, 2010, 09:22:14 PM
Can I make an observation as a member here and not a mod? (I'll go by the rules :winkgrin:)
If we assumed, just for the sake of reasoning things through, that humans TOTALLY get their own way in this lifetime, that it's TOTALLY up to us to make ALL the right decisions - that we not only plan our way but ALSO direct our own steps -that all our choices are TOTALL within our own power and without ANY set limitations....
Then, when we stand before God, our deeds are judged, and we're found wanting - would that really mean;
that any works of ours that are wood, hay, stubble, won't be burned;
that we won't be saved as by fire;
that God is unable or unwilling that none (the person, the spirit) should perish;
that every knee won't bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Master - IN the Holy Spirit;
that even though He was lifted up, He won't indeed draw everyone to Himself;
that even as in Adam all died, in Christ will all be made alive;
that 'destruction' of the flesh will not be a part of the spirit being saved;
that those who chose the broad way still won't "enter in" through the way of destruction;
that God really doesn't work all things according to the counsel of his will (THELEMA = INTENT);
that the "kings of the earth" (the saints) really won't be bringing their treasures into the city that has gates open day and night;
that all nations of the earth won't be blessed;
that when God's judgment is upon the earth the people will learn righteousness;
that every tongue will praise the Lord;
that God won't be All in All (NOT ALL IN SOME);
that absolutely ALL of the following 600 scriptures that speak of the ultimate redemption of all of God's creation will not, cannot come to pass - because humans were able to foil God's ultimate intentions?
Teasing Theo again? You used the word: If :laughing7: (sorry Theo)
James, that's one of the things that can't be really discussed.
You mention 3 pilars of Fathers plan:
a] A certain amount of free will. => 0% - 100%
b] Ability to guide our steps => 0% - 100%
c] Saving => 0% - 100%
Take out 2. Then the plan is no longer the plan. It's like saying assume there is only Father and HS (no Jesus) Does that mean no salvation? imo that can't be known/discussed. Maybe Father wouldn't create at all. Make us holy from start. Or a zillion other ways.
We can try to (dis)prove free will by scripture. But that's an endless discussion so basicly we don't know the answer.
Plus will is a strange thing. I can claim I freely typed this post. I decided the time of posting. But how can I know?
I once asked how people that claim to get messages from the HS, recieve those messages.
One answer was something like: I get a thought but somehow know it wasn't my own thought.
In that case it was clear the thought was not personal. But how about the other zillion thoughts we have in a lifetime?
How can we know it was really us having a thought and then guiding our owns steps.
I can use my free will to make a choice. But if the thoughts that gave birth to that free will action were not mine then my experience of free will is just a fantasy. It's just like training a dog for it's birth. We can teach the dog to be a guide dog for the blind. We can teach the dog extreme agression. The dog thinks s/he doing things of free will. But in really we trained the dogs personallity. Personality guides choices/behavior. We are the dogs potter. Vessel of honor (guiding dog). Vessel of wrath.
Of course similar things happen when raising children.
So if any of the parameters of God's plan would be diffrent (by His own design/wish) then we never can know how He tweaks the other parameters.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 01, 2010, 10:03:00 PM
James, that's one of the things that can't be really discussed.
You mention 3 pilars of Fathers plan:
a] A certain amount of free will. => 0% - 100%
b] Ability to guide our steps => 0% - 100%
c] Saving => 0% - 100%
Take out 2. Then the plan is no longer the plan. It's like saying assume there is only Father and HS (no Jesus) Does that mean no salvation? imo that can't be known/discussed. Maybe Father wouldn't create at all. Make us holy from start. Or a zillion other ways.
We can try to (dis)prove free will by scripture. But that's an endless discussion so basicly we don't know the answer.
I don't understand the first part. I didn't use either banned terms once, and I believe I demonstrated that many concepts actually can be discussed by talking about the
issues and scriptures involved, not just focusing on distacting loaded terms and phrases.
Your last line above may be pretty accurate. I personally believe we are required to make choices within parameters and conditions set by God, for our learning and growth - under His umbrella of control - to whatever extent He so chooses. Even within UR there is a pretty wide range of what people believe on that, but the bottom line seems to be what I was trying to point out in my post -
that even if one sees it totally one way or the other in this life, what do the scriptures say about the final outcome? Who wins? Man, Satan, or God?
Here's a little outline I sort of think of things within;
Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.
Man sins.
Jesus' sacrifice bridges the gap to the Father.
We live, learn, some are saved in this lifetime
There is a judgment and corrective discipline.
Every knee bows, every tongue confesses.
Everyone is brought into the family, all reconciled.
God is All in All.
That leaves about how many thousand doctrinal details in the middle of all that? And I don't believe we'll all see it the same until we're no longer seeing through a glass darkly.
Isn't that the bottom line - does most of humanity end up in a literal burning hell forever, or not?
I believe exactly whatever specific details God uses to accomplish it, He's ultimately in control and says He will reconcile His creation back to Himself. James.
Quote from: WhiteWings
No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul
Hi WW,
Guess I didn't explain things very well?
What I meant was, since we are in Christ we will be like Jesus and the Father is, ONE. If we are ONE with the Father as Jesus was, we do not really have a will of our own. Our will is the Father's will. Since we are in Christ we have no more works, because it is God working in us and not us that do the works. Jesus did and does all the works that is required. Our works mean diddly squat. Our so called will is nothing but works that will be burned up. :2c:
It's kind of like this.
I am in Christ and I am dead to sin and laws which is works. If I am dead in Christ I have no works of my own. The works that are attributed to me are the works of Christ. The Bible says we will be judged according to our works. I am going to be judged by the works of Christ. If one claims their own works or OWN WILL they will be judged by their works, not Christ's. Our own works is what will be destroyed, burned out of us. When that happens we will be ONE with Christ and the Father and our wills will be that of Christ and the Father. The old man will be gone when our WILLS are the same. The Father wants us to look to him, depend on him for all things, NOT ON OURSELVES which is we think is our own WILL.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 02, 2010, 02:24:21 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings
No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul
Hi WW,
Guess I didn't explain things very well?
What I meant was, since we are in Christ we will be like Jesus and the Father is, ONE. If we are ONE with the Father as Jesus was, we do not really have a will of our own. Our will is the Father's will. Since we are in Christ we have no more works, because it is God working in us and not us that do the works. Jesus did and does all the works that is required. Our works mean diddly squat. Our so called will is nothing but works that will be burned up. :2c:
It's kind of like this.
I am in Christ and I am dead to sin and laws which is works. If I am dead in Christ I have no works of my own. The works that are attributed to me are the works of Christ. The Bible says we will be judged according to our works. I am going to be judged by the works of Christ. If one claims their own works or OWN WILL they will be judged by their works, not Christ's. Our own works is what will be destroyed, burned out of us. When that happens we will be ONE with Christ and the Father and our wills will be that of Christ and the Father. The old man will be gone when our WILLS are the same. The Father wants us to look to him, depend on him for all things, NOT ON OURSELVES which is we think is our own WILL.
CHB
Actually we become subject to do the works prepared before the foundation of the world, for us to do in Christ, and we show our faith by our works, because faith without demonstration in work, is dead; but Christ presented to us a new and living way, which requires a working faith.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 12:50:14 AM
As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.
Theo.
Am I that "poor soul" of which you speak?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 02, 2010, 02:49:54 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 31, 2010, 12:50:14 AM
As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.
Theo.
Am I that "poor soul" of which you speak?
Only on this board. I have seen this argument on several boards ,and am always dismayed at the number of bible students that actually think God can be insulted. He can be attacked, ignored, obeyed, disobeyed, but not insulted. THAT would require someone as strong as God, to confront him in his private space.
That was just double-talk.
Please, yes or no?
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 01, 2010, 08:53:33 AM
Quote from: Pierac on April 01, 2010, 02:31:51 AM
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
Then you need to understand the Serpent... was made! The Serpent did not make himself, or his nature! Job teaches you this! (Job 1:6 -7)
Does the verse really mean satan was part of the beasts of the field? It almost sounds satan is not part of that "beasts group" but Adam and Eve are because first we are told how smart satan is and some verse later smart satan tricked dumb Adam and Eve (of the field?)
(Note that Jewish scholars see humans as beasts with an extra soul/spirit)
But I think it's not really important if satan is part of the 'made group' in this verse because everyone (I think) agrees God made everything.
The main debate is if satan was created evil or he turned evil by himself (fallen)
:dontknow:
Depends if you want scripture to harmonize?
Gen 3:14 The LORD God said to the
serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and
dust you shall eat all the days of your life.
What creature eats dust?
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth,
a man of dust.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful.
Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Devour? If not by the consumption of actual flesh then
How? I think you already know.
Who is this serpent of the field?
Job 26:13 By his spirit he (GOD) hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked
serpent.
Rev 12:9 And the
great dragon was thrown down, that
ancient744 serpent,
who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
G744 αρχαιος
archaiosThayer Definition:
1) that has been from the beginning,
original1Jo 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil,
for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
Indeed, sinning from the beginning, not after the fall of any angel or man!
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon,
that ancient744 serpent,
who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Satan is a created part of God's plan!
Now
the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that
the LORD God had made. :wink:
Paul
Yes Paul,
and very crafty in his choice words, isn't he?
To everyone concerned:
I was unaware that the free will/sov debate was banned....or that free will was a hot button word. In the post was trying to make a point about the necessity of spiritual warfare in day to day living- not an overall treatise on free will vs sovereignity of God. I would not want anyone to think I was making a point for any systematic theology in that post. Sometimes, because of time constraints, my writing is less refined than at others, so if I offended anyone I apologize. Although God is sovereign, I am working out my own salvation with fear and trembling. I am subject to the limits of my imperfections and expect everyone to test all things. I am also willing to be subject to the rules of the board. So, Grace and Peace, John
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 01:32:18 AMI don't understand the first part. I didn't use either banned terms once, and I believe I demonstrated that many concepts actually can be discussed by talking about the issues and scriptures involved, not just focusing on distacting loaded terms and phrases.
:msealed:
Well I assumed it was ok that way. I did use the banned terms but thought I made them very neutral by adding 0-100% to them.
Meaning everyone can pick his/her prefered value in that range.
If such a writing style is not allowed I'll edit my message.
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 01:39:28 AM
Here's a little outline I sort of think of things within;
That leaves about how many thousand doctrinal details in the middle of all that? And I don't believe we'll all see it the same until we're no longer seeing through a glass darkly.
A accurate list but unfortunately a useless list
Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.
=> All agree.
=> But not on the amount of people He did this for. 2-100%
=> Not of the efficiency of it. 2-100%
Man sins.
=> All agree
Jesus' sacrifice bridges the gap to the Father.
=> All agree but not on the amount who cross that bridge. 2-100%
We live, learn, some are saved in this lifetime
=> No agreement.
=> Some believe 2% is saved now and 98% never.
=> Some believe 100% is saved now.
=> Some believe x% is saved now and 100-x% is saved later.
There is a judgment and corrective discipline.
=> I think all agree. But not when it takes place and what the severity, effect and duration is
Every knee bows, every tongue confesses.
=> All agree but not if it will do you any good.
Everyone is brought into the family, all reconciled.
=> Most disagree.
God is All in All.
=> I wonder how ETs and EDs see that.
Quote from: CHB on April 02, 2010, 02:24:21 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings
No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul
Hi WW,
Guess I didn't explain things very well?
What I meant was, since we are in Christ we will be like Jesus and the Father is, ONE. If we are ONE with the Father as Jesus was, we do not really have a will of our own. Our will is the Father's will. Since we are in Christ we have no more works, because it is God working in us and not us that do the works. Jesus did and does all the works that is required. Our works mean diddly squat. Our so called will is nothing but works that will be burned up. :2c:
Ok, but how many are in Christ? Some are. Some partly. Some on the outside but ad least loojing at Him. Some turned their backs. Some even run away.
All on this forum seem to do things to get/stay in Christ. I'm not speaking about following all laws of Moses but other things. That feels like work too sometimes. Love your neighbor can be lots of hard work in many cases. (for me ). Being one-in-one might be great and easy. But getting to that point.....
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2010, 07:35:50 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 01:32:18 AMI don't understand the first part. I didn't use either banned terms once, and I believe I demonstrated that many concepts actually can be discussed by talking about the issues and scriptures involved, not just focusing on distacting loaded terms and phrases.
:msealed:
I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying, Tony. What I'm saying is, I don't understand why you think this can't be discussed - Quote WW - "James, that's one of the things that can't be really discussed." The point of what I said is that I believe it certainly
can be discussed without using and getting locked in on certain phrases and terms, and I stated that I believed I had demonstrated that to be the case with my own post. I may not have been clear enough, but that's what I was trying to get across. That I believe the topic could be discussed all day long, the ins and outs, scriptures, concepts, different sides of the issue, without ever narrowing it down to just a battle of certain terms. And that in response to you saying "it can't be discussed". However, maybe
I misunderstood what
you meant. :mblush: If so, my mistake.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 01, 2010, 12:27:55 PM
The argument on this board has been that God already decided what use he was going to make of each pot, prior to making it. GOD says he waits till he sees how the pot turns out before the "if" - "then" decision is made.
He says "The timing of my telling what kind of Pot it is, is after I see whether it will obey or not."
To be perfectly honest, both sides of the equation are difficult to understand; but fraught with precious wares for those who handle them respectfully.
"It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassion fails not" (Lamentations 3:22)
An elderly woman had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a pole which she carried across her neck. One of the pots had a crack in it while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion of water. At the end of the long walks from the stream to the house, the cracked pot arrived only half full. For a full two years this went on daily, with the woman bringing home only one and a half pots of water.
Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments. But the poor cracked pot was ashamed of its own imperfections, as it could only do half of what it had been made to do. After two years of what it perceived to be bitter failure, it spoke to the woman one day by the stream.
"I am ashamed of myself, because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house."The old woman smiled,
"Did you notice that there are flowers on your side of the path, but not on the other pot's side?
That's because I have always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the path, and every day while we walk back, you water them. For two years I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table. Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to grace the house."Each of us have our own unique flaw. But it's the cracks and the flaws we each have that make our lives together, so very interesting and rewarding.
To all of my crackpot friends, have a peaceful day and remember to smell the flowers on your side of the path. It all begins with a first step, and every step is its own journey. Nothing like a change of heart!
peacemaker
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2010, 07:51:23 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 01:39:28 AM
Here's a little outline I sort of think of things within;
That leaves about how many thousand doctrinal details in the middle of all that? And I don't believe we'll all see it the same until we're no longer seeing through a glass darkly.
A accurate list but unfortunately a useless list
Maybe useless to some or many, but maybe a good starting point for a person here or there that are ready/able to hear. :dontknow: Makes sense to me, and God's helping me fill in the "blanks" as I go. And my own personal understandings/revelation on some of those doctrinal details mixed within the outline will likely change from time to time as God clears different things up for me.
And yes, many doctrinal issues that many good, honest people just understand differently. That is part of why I personally believe in stating something, maybe trying to explain it/clarify it a time or two, then realize that in the end God's in control and He will reveal what and to whom He chooses. I can't make anybody understand anything.
I may say something that personally makes a world of sense (like my list) that just from my own perspective, that's the way I visualize it. It may bounce off someone else and mean very little or nothing to them, and vice versa. Glass darkly, all at different places in our walk - and I believe many things we won't really completely understand until we see Him face to face. :2c:
Quote from: Pierac on April 02, 2010, 03:17:17 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 01, 2010, 08:53:33 AM
Quote from: Pierac on April 01, 2010, 02:31:51 AM
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
Then you need to understand the Serpent... was made! The Serpent did not make himself, or his nature! Job teaches you this! (Job 1:6 -7)
Does the verse really mean satan was part of the beasts of the field? It almost sounds satan is not part of that "beasts group" but Adam and Eve are because first we are told how smart satan is and some verse later smart satan tricked dumb Adam and Eve (of the field?)
(Note that Jewish scholars see humans as beasts with an extra soul/spirit)
But I think it's not really important if satan is part of the 'made group' in this verse because everyone (I think) agrees God made everything.
The main debate is if satan was created evil or he turned evil by himself (fallen)
:dontknow:
Depends if you want scripture to harmonize?
Where shall I begin... :winkgrin:
I agree with all your verses. I agree on satan/snake/dust etc.
But for me it proves nothing.
For example your post doesn't answer:
a] When was the beginning?
b] Satan is cursed to eat dust. That doesn't prove he always ate dust.
c] Was he part of the beasts in the field. I really don't see anything conclusive about that in the verses.
BTW I mentioned fallen. That doesn't mean I do or don't agree with the fallen angel theory.
I only wanted to point out that there is no proof of anything in the the "sepent tricks eve" verses.
For me the only thing that's clear (from those verses) is:
a] Serpent = smarter that many
b] Serpent = sinner for a very long time
c] Serpent succesfully tricked Eve
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 08:05:19 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2010, 07:35:50 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 01:32:18 AMI don't understand the first part. I didn't use either banned terms once, and I believe I demonstrated that many concepts actually can be discussed by talking about the issues and scriptures involved, not just focusing on distacting loaded terms and phrases.
:msealed:
I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying, Tony. What I'm saying is, I don't understand why you think this can't be discussed - Quote WW - "James, that's one of the things that can't be really discussed." The point of what I said is that I believe it certainly can be discussed without using and getting locked in on certain phrases and terms, and I stated that I believed I had demonstrated that to be the case with my own post.
I still have no clue what you are talking about James.
Let me say 3 things.
a] If any of my posted used wrong wording hit the delete button.
b] Using a synonym for a word is still the same. "James you are a thief." "James you steal." Does one sound better or worse.
I did already forget the third thing I wanted to say. No worries. Enough things to chat about :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 08:15:17 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2010, 07:51:23 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 01:39:28 AM
Here's a little outline I sort of think of things within;
That leaves about how many thousand doctrinal details in the middle of all that? And I don't believe we'll all see it the same until we're no longer seeing through a glass darkly.
A accurate list but unfortunately a useless list
Maybe useless to some or many, but maybe a good starting point for a person here or there that are ready/able to hear. :dontknow:
I think ETs and EDs are just as willing to hear as URs. They all use scripture to prove points. I think that most people in the mentioned groups have no hidden agendas. Likely all 3 groups cherish your list because it proves their point. :winkgrin:
So all that are very willing to hear, all hear different things...
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2010, 08:39:42 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 08:15:17 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2010, 07:51:23 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 01:39:28 AM
Here's a little outline I sort of think of things within;
That leaves about how many thousand doctrinal details in the middle of all that? And I don't believe we'll all see it the same until we're no longer seeing through a glass darkly.
A accurate list but unfortunately a useless list
Maybe useless to some or many, but maybe a good starting point for a person here or there that are ready/able to hear. :dontknow:
I think ETs and EDs are just as willing to hear as URs. They all use scripture to prove points. I think that most people in the mentioned groups have no hidden agendas. Likely all 3 groups cherish your list because it proves their point. :winkgrin:
So even that are very willing to hear all hear different things...
Yep, good points. Fits nicely with this that I said - "That is part of why I personally believe in stating something, maybe trying to explain it/clarify it a time or two, then realize that in the end God's in control and He will reveal what and to whom He chooses. I can't make anybody understand anything."
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2010, 08:32:08 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 08:05:19 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2010, 07:35:50 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 01:32:18 AMI don't understand the first part. I didn't use either banned terms once, and I believe I demonstrated that many concepts actually can be discussed by talking about the issues and scriptures involved, not just focusing on distacting loaded terms and phrases.
:msealed:
I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying, Tony. What I'm saying is, I don't understand why you think this can't be discussed - Quote WW - "James, that's one of the things that can't be really discussed." The point of what I said is that I believe it certainly can be discussed without using and getting locked in on certain phrases and terms, and I stated that I believed I had demonstrated that to be the case with my own post.
I still have no clue what you are talking about James.
Let me say 3 things.
a] If any of my posted used wrong wording hit the delete button.
b] Using a synonym for a word is still the same. "James you are a thief." "James you steal." Does one sound better or worse.
I did already forget the third thing I wanted to say. No worries. Enough things to chat about :icon_jokercolor:
Am I talking pig-latin again? :mlaugh: Hey,
I know what I mean!
Alright, I'll try one more time, then maybe you're right, there's other stuff to talk about. :)
-------------------------
I said this:
"Can I make an observation as a member here and not a mod? (I'll go by the rules )
If we assumed, just for the sake of reasoning things through, that humans TOTALLY get their own way in this lifetime, that it's TOTALLY up to us to make ALL the right decisions - that we not only plan our way but ALSO direct our own steps -that all our choices are TOTALLY within our own power and without ANY set limitations....
Then, when we stand before God, our deeds are judged, and we're found wanting - would that really mean;
that any works of ours that are wood, hay, stubble, won't be burned;
that we won't be saved as by fire;
that God is unable or unwilling that none (the person, the spirit) should perish;
that every knee won't bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Master - IN the Holy Spirit;
that even though He was lifted up, He won't indeed draw everyone to Himself;
that even as in Adam all died, in Christ will all be made alive;
that 'destruction' of the flesh will not be a part of the spirit being saved;
that those who chose the broad way still won't "enter in" through the way of destruction;
that God really doesn't work all things according to the counsel of his will (THELEMA = INTENT);
that the "kings of the earth" (the saints) really won't be bringing their treasures into the city that has gates open day and night;
that all nations of the earth won't be blessed;
that when God's judgment is upon the earth the people will learn righteousness;
that every tongue will praise the Lord;
that God won't be All in All (NOT ALL IN SOME);
that there will not be a restitution of all things? Acts 3:21 ;
that absolutely ALL of the following 600 scriptures that speak of the ultimate redemption of all of God's creation will not, cannot come to pass - because humans were able to foil God's ultimate intentions?"
------------------------------------------
You said this;
"James, that's one of the things that can't be really discussed."
------------------------------------------
I said:
"I don't understand the first part [
meaning you saying "that's one of the things that can't be really discussed"]. [Then I went on to explain that I just
did discuss it, without ever saying free will or sovereignty :Oops: by saying] .... "I believe I demonstrated that many concepts actually can be discussed by talking about the issues and scriptures involved, not just focusing on distacting loaded terms and phrases."
-----------------------------------------------
I wasn't asking you to change anything in your post. I was attempting to make the point that we can discuss scripture til we're blue in the face without ever locking into a definition battle. Or if we can't, then maybe we really do need to move on to other issues. How about this? Theo - if there's truly a stumbling block here with you regarding this topic and your being able to fully accept UR, would you like a private "speak to the mods" thread? You could even pick a couple of people you'd like to join the private discussion. That way we'd keep it off the boards as far as turning it into a free for all food fight that could be injurious to a "little one" passing by, while still talking very frankly and openly about a discouraged/banned topic. In other words, we can fight like cats and dogs behind closed doors as long as nobody hears us. Just kidding. :laughing7:
It's something to consider, and would certainly be keeping within guidelines. If it's a bad idea, then it wouldn't be my first and likely won't be my last. :bigGrin: (I really am trying here guys - trying to stick with board expectations, while still hoping we can do what helps each other.) :sigh:
And one more time in summary - the point of my original post was, isn't it true that WHICHEVER and HOW MUCH of either way one believes it happens in this lifetime, does that negate any of how God says it's ultimately going to turn out?
Alright, maybe I can get out of this now (:Yeahright:)
I am responding again here to Theo Books earlier post that listed some verses about spiritual warfare.
I think it is wise to use scriptural language to discuss spiritual reality and avoid the traps of systematic theology.There are a number of things that can be learned from the types used in relationship to "Satan", snake, dust, the great dragon, etc. I appreciate them and acknowledge them.
However, it appears to me that Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude and John all had a view of our interaction with "the wicked one" that was much more immediate, not so concerned with origins, and very concerned with the present engagement. They wrote in terms more time specific than any pure allegory or principle can realistically address. Indeed, I have personally experienced that dealing with principalities and powers and the hosts of wickedness- as well as human enemies of the gospel "is" a part of taking His yoke upon us.
If someone believes that all of the writings about spiritual warfare are allegorical or symbolic of spiritual principles that have been fulfilled and need not be regarded in our present walk with Christ- so be it- everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that no matter what we believe the eternal perspective is, we have to deal with spiritual realities- in our time. We have to walk, and as Jesus said, we tread on serpents and scorpions. In my opinion, anyone who does not recognize that one of the wiles of the devil is to obscure his existence and his activity is deceived by him and not walking in reality.
Of course, walking in the Spirit, in the love of God, is the primary focus of our discipleship. We are to walk as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. There is another spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience, we contend with the world, the flesh and the devil, and spiritual warfare is a part our discipleship in Christ. This is an evidence of whether we are overcoming- for those who have overcome within themselves are the ones who are able to overcome the devil. Jesus taught Paul all he knew and Paul considered it serious business. I would point to the record, for instance of the 7 sons of Sceva in Acts who found out the hard way what demonic activity can produce, or Paul's confrontation with the prophetess of Diana, out of whom he cast a familiar spirit and unlocked a tide of outrage and persecution in Ephesus, or the confrontation in which Jesus rescued the man possessed by Legion. I have personally seen examples of all of the above in my time as a minister of the gospel.
Finally, I say to myself and too all, when we get too lost in the definitions and perspectives of truth, we are probably not so great at walking in it.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2010, 04:23:27 PMFinally, I say to myself and too all, when we get too lost in the definitions and perspectives of truth, we are probably not so great at walking in it.
I guess that's true. But I hope the definitions help finding the Truth....
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 02, 2010, 03:13:01 AM
That was just double-talk.
Please, yes or no?
Take it for whatever it is worth to you. It IS after all, my response. I have no intention of adding to your hurt. You are God's servant, not mine. As I am God's servant, not yours. Let us glorify God in this matter and let go what hurts.
Quote from: peacemaker on April 02, 2010, 08:11:00 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 01, 2010, 12:27:55 PM
The argument on this board has been that God already decided what use he was going to make of each pot, prior to making it. GOD says he waits till he sees how the pot turns out before the "if" - "then" decision is made.
He says "The timing of my telling what kind of Pot it is, is after I see whether it will obey or not."
To be perfectly honest, both sides of the equation are difficult to understand; but fraught with precious wares for those who handle them respectfully.
"It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassion fails not" (Lamentations 3:22)
An elderly woman had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a pole which she carried across her neck. One of the pots had a crack in it while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion of water. At the end of the long walks from the stream to the house, the cracked pot arrived only half full. For a full two years this went on daily, with the woman bringing home only one and a half pots of water.
Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments. But the poor cracked pot was ashamed of its own imperfections, as it could only do half of what it had been made to do. After two years of what it perceived to be bitter failure, it spoke to the woman one day by the stream.
"I am ashamed of myself, because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house."
The old woman smiled, "Did you notice that there are flowers on your side of the path, but not on the other pot's side?
That's because I have always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the path, and every day while we walk back, you water them. For two years I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table. Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to grace the house."
Each of us have our own unique flaw. But it's the cracks and the flaws we each have that make our lives together, so very interesting and rewarding.
To all of my crackpot friends, have a peaceful day and remember to smell the flowers on your side of the path. It all begins with a first step, and every step is its own journey. Nothing like a change of heart!
peacemaker
I take that kinda' personal.
C.Pot
Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2010, 04:23:27 PM
I am responding again here to Theo Books earlier post that listed some verses about spiritual warfare.
I think it is wise to use scriptural language to discuss spiritual reality and avoid the traps of systematic theology.There are a number of things that can be learned from the types used in relationship to "Satan", snake, dust, the great dragon, etc. I appreciate them and acknowledge them.
However, it appears to me that Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude and John all had a view of our interaction with "the wicked one" that was much more immediate, not so concerned with origins, and very concerned with the present engagement. They wrote in terms more time specific than any pure allegory or principle can realistically address. Indeed, I have personally experienced that dealing with principalities and powers and the hosts of wickedness- as well as human enemies of the gospel "is" a part of taking His yoke upon us.
If someone believes that all of the writings about spiritual warfare are allegorical or symbolic of spiritual principles that have been fulfilled and need not be regarded in our present walk with Christ- so be it- everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that no matter what we believe the eternal perspective is, we have to deal with spiritual realities- in our time. We have to walk, and as Jesus said, we tread on serpents and scorpions. In my opinion, anyone who does not recognize that one of the wiles of the devil is to obscure his existence and his activity is deceived by him and not walking in reality.
Of course, walking in the Spirit, in the love of God, is the primary focus of our discipleship. We are to walk as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. There is another spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience, we contend with the world, the flesh and the devil, and spiritual warfare is a part our discipleship in Christ. This is an evidence of whether we are overcoming- for those who have overcome within themselves are the ones who are able to overcome the devil. Jesus taught Paul all he knew and Paul considered it serious business. I would point to the record, for instance of the 7 sons of Sceva in Acts who found out the hard way what demonic activity can produce, or Paul's confrontation with the prophetess of Diana, out of whom he cast a familiar spirit and unlocked a tide of outrage and persecution in Ephesus, or the confrontation in which Jesus rescued the man possessed by Legion. I have personally seen examples of all of the above in my time as a minister of the gospel.
Finally, I say to myself and too all, when we get too lost in the definitions and perspectives of truth, we are probably not so great at walking in it.
It becomes more difficult as time progresses, to know how best to respond to discussions with which I disagree. The reason, is mostly bound up with the terminology, which as you know, represents different things to different people, who having different experiences and different backgrounds, different scholarlship accolades, and different passions, sometimes lose ourselves in the rhetoric.
I think Paul's problem with Satan was based as much on the feeling of immediacy as to the reality of "the exceeding deceitfulness of sin." Paul understood how Satan was even in his own day, raising havoc within the brotherhood of the church. How many times Paul warned, "Hey, you guys, he's here, look about you and be careful what you say because what you say, is what you teach." (I'm paraphrasing here)
Under the Old dispensation, the Hebrew nation wore their basic rhetorical bytes on their sleeves and garment borders as "phylacteries" which were designed to remind Israel of those very bytes which they produced. The Pharisees, however, enlarged their borders and hems to make it appear they were better at teaching the respective rhetorical representations by virtue of bigger garments on which to post them. Even THEY failed to comprehend the fact that they were sending a different message than they supposed by virtue of how the people perceived what they were doing.
Under the new dispensation, we are told "by their fruits you shall know them, which is different from simply displaying yourself as a fruit tree.
I have learned much from studying on this board, but still have several important issues that have not been adequately dealt with, and am trying to decide whether to address them here, or simply move on.
I like it when I read stuff like your post, but it still leaves me with unaddressed issues. If I fail to respond, it may be because I have in fact moved on, or it may be I am simply considering a matter introduced to the thread.
Anyway, rambling aside, you are correct as to the issue of "spiritual warfare" as opposed to the carnallity of the old law. I enjoyed it.
Quote
Only on this board. I have seen this argument on several boards ,and am always dismayed at the number of bible students that actually think God can be insulted. He can be attacked, ignored, obeyed, disobeyed, but not insulted. THAT would require someone as strong as God, to confront him in his private space.
What do you mean by "only on this board?
Quote from: Theo Book on April 02, 2010, 05:16:22 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on April 02, 2010, 08:11:00 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 01, 2010, 12:27:55 PM
The argument on this board has been that God already decided what use he was going to make of each pot, prior to making it. GOD says he waits till he sees how the pot turns out before the "if" - "then" decision is made.
He says "The timing of my telling what kind of Pot it is, is after I see whether it will obey or not."
To be perfectly honest, both sides of the equation are difficult to understand; but fraught with precious wares for those who handle them respectfully.
"It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassion fails not" (Lamentations 3:22)
An elderly woman had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a pole which she carried across her neck. One of the pots had a crack in it while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion of water. At the end of the long walks from the stream to the house, the cracked pot arrived only half full. For a full two years this went on daily, with the woman bringing home only one and a half pots of water.
Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments. But the poor cracked pot was ashamed of its own imperfections, as it could only do half of what it had been made to do. After two years of what it perceived to be bitter failure, it spoke to the woman one day by the stream.
"I am ashamed of myself, because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house."
The old woman smiled, "Did you notice that there are flowers on your side of the path, but not on the other pot's side?
That's because I have always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the path, and every day while we walk back, you water them. For two years I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table. Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to grace the house."
Each of us have our own unique flaw. But it's the cracks and the flaws we each have that make our lives together, so very interesting and rewarding.
To all of my crackpot friends, have a peaceful day and remember to smell the flowers on your side of the path. It all begins with a first step, and every step is its own journey. Nothing like a change of heart!
peacemaker
I take that kinda' personal.
C.Pot
Take it for whatever it is worth to you.
Respectfully,
peacemaker
Quote from: Theo Book on April 02, 2010, 02:47:19 AM
Quote from: CHB on April 02, 2010, 02:24:21 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings
No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul
Hi WW,
Guess I didn't explain things very well?
What I meant was, since we are in Christ we will be like Jesus and the Father is, ONE. If we are ONE with the Father as Jesus was, we do not really have a will of our own. Our will is the Father's will. Since we are in Christ we have no more works, because it is God working in us and not us that do the works. Jesus did and does all the works that is required. Our works mean diddly squat. Our so called will is nothing but works that will be burned up. :2c:
It's kind of like this.
I am in Christ and I am dead to sin and laws which is works. If I am dead in Christ I have no works of my own. The works that are attributed to me are the works of Christ. The Bible says we will be judged according to our works. I am going to be judged by the works of Christ. If one claims their own works or OWN WILL they will be judged by their works, not Christ's. Our own works is what will be destroyed, burned out of us. When that happens we will be ONE with Christ and the Father and our wills will be that of Christ and the Father. The old man will be gone when our WILLS are the same. The Father wants us to look to him, depend on him for all things, NOT ON OURSELVES which is we think is our own WILL.
CHB
Actually we become subject to do the works prepared before the foundation of the world, for us to do in Christ, and we show our faith by our works, because faith without demonstration in work, is dead; but Christ presented to us a new and living way, which requires a working faith.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Hi Theo,
Actually it is not our faith either. The scriptures you quoted are those of the New Covenant, which did require faith, baptism, keeping of the Lord's supper, but the final revelation of what Paul came to see with the Mystery is that we "live by the faith of the Son of God (Gal. 2:20). (Eph. 5:2) "Looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith". It is not our faith that counts but Christ faith. "For by grace are you saved through faith; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). So that faith that we think we conjure up all by ourselves really is the faith of Christ.
CHB
Quote from: peacemaker on April 02, 2010, 06:52:53 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 02, 2010, 05:16:22 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on April 02, 2010, 08:11:00 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 01, 2010, 12:27:55 PM
The argument on this board has been that God already decided what use he was going to make of each pot, prior to making it. GOD says he waits till he sees how the pot turns out before the "if" - "then" decision is made.
He says "The timing of my telling what kind of Pot it is, is after I see whether it will obey or not."
To be perfectly honest, both sides of the equation are difficult to understand; but fraught with precious wares for those who handle them respectfully.
"It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassion fails not" (Lamentations 3:22)
An elderly woman had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a pole which she carried across her neck. One of the pots had a crack in it while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion of water. At the end of the long walks from the stream to the house, the cracked pot arrived only half full. For a full two years this went on daily, with the woman bringing home only one and a half pots of water.
Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments. But the poor cracked pot was ashamed of its own imperfections, as it could only do half of what it had been made to do. After two years of what it perceived to be bitter failure, it spoke to the woman one day by the stream.
"I am ashamed of myself, because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house."
The old woman smiled, "Did you notice that there are flowers on your side of the path, but not on the other pot's side?
That's because I have always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the path, and every day while we walk back, you water them. For two years I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table. Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to grace the house."
Each of us have our own unique flaw. But it's the cracks and the flaws we each have that make our lives together, so very interesting and rewarding.
To all of my crackpot friends, have a peaceful day and remember to smell the flowers on your side of the path. It all begins with a first step, and every step is its own journey. Nothing like a change of heart!
peacemaker
I take that kinda' personal.
C.Pot
Take it for whatever it is worth to you.
Respectfully,
peacemaker
o.k. I'll use that parable about the old woman and her "cracked pot" in my lesson for Sunday. Loved it.
Quote from: CHB on April 02, 2010, 07:15:48 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 02, 2010, 02:47:19 AM
Quote from: CHB on April 02, 2010, 02:24:21 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings
No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul
Hi WW,
Guess I didn't explain things very well?
What I meant was, since we are in Christ we will be like Jesus and the Father is, ONE. If we are ONE with the Father as Jesus was, we do not really have a will of our own. Our will is the Father's will. Since we are in Christ we have no more works, because it is God working in us and not us that do the works. Jesus did and does all the works that is required. Our works mean diddly squat. Our so called will is nothing but works that will be burned up. :2c:
It's kind of like this.
I am in Christ and I am dead to sin and laws which is works. If I am dead in Christ I have no works of my own. The works that are attributed to me are the works of Christ. The Bible says we will be judged according to our works. I am going to be judged by the works of Christ. If one claims their own works or OWN WILL they will be judged by their works, not Christ's. Our own works is what will be destroyed, burned out of us. When that happens we will be ONE with Christ and the Father and our wills will be that of Christ and the Father. The old man will be gone when our WILLS are the same. The Father wants us to look to him, depend on him for all things, NOT ON OURSELVES which is we think is our own WILL.
CHB
Actually we become subject to do the works prepared before the foundation of the world, for us to do in Christ, and we show our faith by our works, because faith without demonstration in work, is dead; but Christ presented to us a new and living way, which requires a working faith.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Hi Theo,
Actually it is not our faith either. The scriptures you quoted are those of the New Covenant, which did require faith, baptism, keeping of the Lord's supper, but the final revelation of what Paul came to see with the Mystery is that we "live by the faith of the Son of God (Gal. 2:20). (Eph. 5:2) "Looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith". It is not our faith that counts but Christ faith. "For by grace are you saved through faith; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). So that faith that we think we conjure up all by ourselves really is the faith of Christ.
CHB
Yes, I know what you mean. We must have the same quality of faith as that displayed by Jesus himself, absolute and without reservation. He trusted his Father completely and with no problems of doubt.
QuoteOnly on this board. I have seen this argument on several boards ,and am always dismayed at the number of bible students that actually think God can be insulted. He can be attacked, ignored, obeyed, disobeyed, but not insulted. THAT would require someone as strong as God, to confront him in his private space.
QuoteWhat do you mean by "only on this board?
Sorry! I thought I had made it clear. "I have seen this argument ON SEVERAL BOARDS, and am always dismayed at the number of bible students that actually think God can be insulted. He can be attacked, ignored, obeyed, disobeyed but not insulted. THAT would require someone as strong as God, to confront him in his private space."
CHB - "Actually it is not our faith either"
Excellent C. It's His faith working through us.
"For it's by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast".
Author/Finisher - predestined unto good works - He Who has begun a good work in you will complete it. Thank you Father.
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 08:47:41 PM
CHB - "Actually it is not our faith either"
Excellent C. It's His faith working through us.
"For it's by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast".
Author/Finisher - predestined unto good works - He Who has begun a good work in you will complete it. Thank you Father.
I think if you follow the pronouns on this one, you might miss something. While it is true, faith is not "of yourselves" still it is YOUR faith that is proved by YOUR works; James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Comment?
No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?
Also,
You said that we at Tentmaker do not serve an eternal God.
What do you mean by that?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 02, 2010, 09:44:18 PM
No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?
KJVMat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Doesn't sound very bad to me... :gangel:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 02, 2010, 09:18:20 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 08:47:41 PM
CHB - "Actually it is not our faith either"
Excellent C. It's His faith working through us.
"For it's by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast".
Author/Finisher - predestined unto good works - He Who has begun a good work in you will complete it. Thank you Father.
I think if you follow the pronouns on this one, you might miss something. While it is true, faith is not "of yourselves" still it is YOUR faith that is proved by YOUR works; James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Comment?
Good question, that's a bit of "holy battleground", isn't it. It can appear a contradiction. But rightly divided, there's no contradiction between Paul and James. I believe good works are a
result of Christ working in and through the saved believer's regenerated heart. A product, and
evidence of the new spiritual birth ...
Saving faith will produce a changed life. A person who is saved is trusting Christ alone for their salvation, not their works (ie Romans). And I believe that faith is
given, not conjured up. The devils believe and tremble, but they're not redeemed.
However, once saved by grace alone, a true Christian will
want to and be inclined toward practicing good works such as feeding the poor (ie James). Not to earn salvation -- which they already have -- but
because they are saved. (see Ephesians 2:8-10). The changed heart, the Spirit's work within.
Perhaps James is warning of a belief in facts (i.e., head knowledge without a new birth) -- a type of faith that never results in a changed life?
Saving faith comes when someone stops trusting their own goodness or work (Phil. 2:8) and puts all their trust in Christ for salvation. And this type of faith will naturally exhibit good works.
I do believe we are responsible for obedience, surrender, entering into His "rest" (total trust in Him). But if it's OUR works through our effort alone, then how can Jesus be both the Originator and Completer of our faith? How can the scriptures say that "
He who has begun a good work in you
will complete it"? This is not some sort of "do what you want/easy believism". It cost our Lord His life, and His work in and on behalf of a believer is a very serious and effective thing. It will show evidence and produce fruit -
His fruit. Believe me, I do know that it's a hard thing to let go of our own struggling and just keep pressing into Him, His righteousness, His goodness, His strength. I've been one of the "best" (worst) struggling Christians you've even seen. But my own efforts at goodness failed miserably. I'm having to learn by my mistakes and failures (read, sin).
Anyway, that's kind'a how I see it. Anyone else? :bigGrin:
P.S. It just hit me; seriously, when we stand before the Master, are we going to say "look at everything I did in your name. Aren't these works good?"
Or best to say "thank you Father for everything you've done for me - for placing your Spirit in me and working through this vessel that is only worthy by the blood of Jesus"?
The crowns belong at His feet.
Jesus tell us Himself ...
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Believe that the Lord gives us a measure of His faith and how we use it or not use it makes a difference
without Faith it is impossible to please God , thats how Jesus pleased His Father ...
and the works of Faith are what James is speaking of , the same works that Jesus did and greater works shall you do beccause I go to the Father
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. its faith believing that the good works are done in Christ
believe for the works sake .... in other words have faith in the Living God that has living works of the Lords righteousness
not dead works of your own righteousness
:icon_flower: ChB , you blessed me in these posts !!! praise God !! :HeartThrob:
Yes rosie, we're all given a measure of faith. :thumbsup:
Sorry, don't mean to spam, but this is one of the main topics I ponder over. I was thinking some more -
I'm not advocating lawless, carefree sinful living so that "grace may more abound". I just think there's perhaps a bit of a mystery involved - somehow the strength and actual outcome is ensured by God. Paul said he was unable to do the things he wanted to do, and that Jesus was His deliverer. Also, when he talked about doing a good thing, he said it's "I, yet not I". :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2010, 10:35:33 PM
P.S. It just hit me; seriously, when we stand before the Master, are we going to say "look at everything I did in your name. Aren't these works good?"
Or best to say "thank you Father for everything you've done for me - for placing your Spirit in me and working through this vessel that is only worthy by the blood of Jesus"?
The crowns belong at His feet.
Amen jabcat, this is kind of what I have been trying to say in my post about works not being our works but Christ that dwells in us. :happyclap: :ty:
The epistles of Paul should be positioned after James, Peter, and John's epistles, this is why they seem to contridict each other. The thing is, Peter, James and John and the other apostles were comissioned to preach to the Jew's, Paul and Barnabas went to the Gentiles (Acts 13:46-47) (Acts 22:21).
CHB
Nah, you said it well. Our posts just complemented each other/fit together well. :thumbsup:
I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude. Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that? Thanks.
I guess I should explain my above post a little more, although most may not see this the way I do.
After Christ was crucified and resurrected the apostles, including Paul, taught the New Covenant first because this is all they understood. The apostles, including Paul, preached mainly to the Jew's, Gentiles if grafted in. After Paul had the vision or whatever it was, Paul came to see that the laws was no longer in force. Paul came to see that we didn't need to be a part of Israel to be saved. He saw that we no longer should claim works of our own such as faith, baptisms, keeping of days. He saw that all was by Christ, through Christ, to Christ, and Christ working in us that did all the works, lest any man should boast. But boast they still do.
Paul stopped teaching the Jew's and New Covenant and went to the Gentiles. This caused Paul much trouble with the Jew and others and landed him in prison time after time. Gentiles have never been under any Covenants or laws, these were only for Israelites.
Paul was given the final revelation of salvation. The epistles of the other apostles was directed to the Israelites which included the teaching of New Covenant. Paul came to see and understand the "Mystery which had been hid in God since the foundation of the world". This knowledge is what God had in mind from the beginning but he hadn't revealed it to anyone until Paul, "which is Christ in you" (Col. 1:27). We are all in Christ, only thing is most don't realize it. This is what Paul referred to in (1Cor.3:13:-15). All the works that we claim to have will be destroyed and only the works that Jesus accomplished in us will remain. (1Cor. 3:11) For other foundation can no man lay THAN THAT IS LAID, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST.
CHB
THE LAW 49 books 7x7 New Testament
1. Genesis Matthew
2. Exodus Mark
3. Leviticus Luke
4. Numbers John
5. Deuteronomy Acts
THE PROPHETS James
6. Joshua/Judges 1&2 Peter
7. The Book of Kingdoms 1,2,3 John
8. Isaiah Jude
9. Jeremiah Romans
10. Ezekiel 1,2 Corinthians
11. The Twelve Galatians
THE WRITINGS (PSALMS) Ephesians
12. Psalms Philipians
13. Proverbs Colossians
14. Job 1,2 Thess.
15. Song of Songs Hebrews
16. Ruth 1,2 Timothy
17. Lamentations Titus
18. Ecclesiastes Philmon
19. Esther Revelation
20. Daniel
21. Ezra/Nehemiah
22. The Book of Chronicles
Quote from: jabcat on April 03, 2010, 03:25:08 AM
Nah, you said it well. Our posts just complemented each other/fit together well. :thumbsup:
I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude. Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that? Thanks.
I have a Bible that has that order, (The Bible In Its Original Order) and the translation I am working on will have that same order. It is not chronological, but is based on the the order of teaching, to the Jew first, also to the Greek.
Ron
The simple way I tend to look at the whole issue of faith, whether it is the Lord's or ours, is that it is both, just as so many either/or issues tend to be.
The source of the faith is Christ, but in his giving it to me, it then becomes mine. I am not the source of it, but I can call it mine, as well as his, since I possess it now, yet he is the one who gave it to me and uses it through me.
Ron
No problem Theo
Sometimes I read a question and feel led to respond in a more or less comprehensive way for some reason. Perhaps it is the Holy Spirit in me, perhaps it is just my own interests, but I try not to be invested in the responses beyond
that of fellowship in the Spirit. "The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it, but you know not where it is going, or from where it came so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit." If we know exactly what we are doing all the time we probably are not walking in the Spirit. Peace, John
Quote from: jabcat on April 03, 2010, 03:25:08 AM
I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude. Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that? Thanks.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3018.msg93599;topicseen#msg93599
Quote from: gregoryfl on April 03, 2010, 04:54:14 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 03, 2010, 03:25:08 AM
Nah, you said it well. Our posts just complemented each other/fit together well. :thumbsup:
I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude. Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that? Thanks.
I have a Bible that has that order, (The Bible In Its Original Order) and the translation I am working on will have that same order. It is not chronological, but is based on the the order of teaching, to the Jew first, also to the Greek.
Ron
That sounds good, when will it be available?
About faith: I guess you could say the faith that was given to us is ours but I don't like to refer to it as mine because it is by the faith of Christ that we are saved. It was by his faith and believing in the Father to raise him from the dead that saved me. Christ had faith that the Father would resurrect him from the dead that is why he was willing to die for us.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 03, 2010, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 03, 2010, 03:25:08 AM
I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude. Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that? Thanks.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3018.msg93599;topicseen#msg93599
Alright, thanks all for the info. I'm thinking of making tabs and marking the books of my Bible 1,2,3, etc. in the order you've given. May help me conceptualize the flow, primary audiance and intent, helping to "rightly divide the Word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15) :thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on April 02, 2010, 07:15:48 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 02, 2010, 02:47:19 AM
Quote from: CHB on April 02, 2010, 02:24:21 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings
No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul
Hi WW,
Guess I didn't explain things very well?
What I meant was, since we are in Christ we will be like Jesus and the Father is, ONE. If we are ONE with the Father as Jesus was, we do not really have a will of our own. Our will is the Father's will. Since we are in Christ we have no more works, because it is God working in us and not us that do the works. Jesus did and does all the works that is required. Our works mean diddly squat. Our so called will is nothing but works that will be burned up. :2c:
It's kind of like this.
I am in Christ and I am dead to sin and laws which is works. If I am dead in Christ I have no works of my own. The works that are attributed to me are the works of Christ. The Bible says we will be judged according to our works. I am going to be judged by the works of Christ. If one claims their own works or OWN WILL they will be judged by their works, not Christ's. Our own works is what will be destroyed, burned out of us. When that happens we will be ONE with Christ and the Father and our wills will be that of Christ and the Father. The old man will be gone when our WILLS are the same. The Father wants us to look to him, depend on him for all things, NOT ON OURSELVES which is we think is our own WILL.
CHB
Actually we become subject to do the works prepared before the foundation of the world, for us to do in Christ, and we show our faith by our works, because faith without demonstration in work, is dead; but Christ presented to us a new and living way, which requires a working faith.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Hi Theo,
Actually it is not our faith either. The scriptures you quoted are those of the New Covenant, which did require faith.....
Hi CHB; Just one observation, about only one phrase from your post. From what you are saying I get the impression that you do not think the old testament was a testament of faith, or perhaps the old covenant was not a covenant of faith?
Here is a new covenant comment made by Paul reflecting his thoughts on the subject, in part... Rom 9:31 "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith..."
And remember, Abraham's "FAITH" was what got Abraham "accounted righteous" by God, and he was never under the laws of Moses. Moses and his laws were under Abraham's covenant of faith.
What say you?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 02, 2010, 09:44:18 PM
No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?
Well, if you are NOT a "poor soul" you are no servant of Christ, and I have indeed misplaced you among God's servants. Do I owe you an apology for that?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 02, 2010, 09:45:53 PM
Also,
You said that we at Tentmaker do not serve an eternal God.
What do you mean by that?
I believe it was a reference to aiwnion referencing both Salvation AND punishment as "aiwnion" and if you deny one you deny the other. That was a topic within the parameters of the study thread.
If you will read Thayer's report on the scholars page, you will see that he reaches the conclusion about "aiwnion" NOT referencing eternal, and eternity, because the Jews had no such expectation under the Mosaic or other covenants. AND he says Christ got his understanding from the pagan religions around him. With that I disagree. Jesus was fully involved with his Father, and got all of his doctrines and understanding from the father, speaking only what the Father gave him to say. So, if thayer thinks Jesus got his understanding of Aiwnion and eternality from pagans, he must think God is a pagan.
I disagree.
Quote from: CHB on April 03, 2010, 03:57:00 AM
I guess I should explain my above post a little more, although most may not see this the way I do.
After Christ was crucified and resurrected the apostles, including Paul, taught the New Covenant first because this is all they understood. The apostles, including Paul, preached mainly to the Jew's, Gentiles if grafted in. After Paul had the vision or whatever it was, Paul came to see that the laws was no longer in force. Paul came to see that we didn't need to be a part of Israel to be saved. He saw that we no longer should claim works of our own such as faith, baptisms, keeping of days. He saw that all was by Christ, through Christ, to Christ, and Christ working in us that did all the works, lest any man should boast. But boast they still do.
I think a new careful reading will show Paul was never against "works" done by a Christian, in fact it was Paul tho told us about the workd God designed for us to do as Christians. [Eph 2:10] What Paul was against was men who claimed to be saved by "works OF THE LAW." THAT is what Paul was so against, as the Jews attempted again and again to justify themselves because of their obedience to the outward signs of obedience to the laws of Moses, while ignoring the spiritual side of those same laws.
What say you?
Quote from: jabcat on April 04, 2010, 05:17:24 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 03, 2010, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 03, 2010, 03:25:08 AM
I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude. Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that? Thanks.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3018.msg93599;topicseen#msg93599
Alright, thanks all for the info. I'm thinking of making tabs and marking the books of my Bible 1,2,3, etc. in the order you've given. May help me conceptualize the flow, primary audiance and intent, helping to "rightly divide the Word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15) :thumbsup:
I have tried to avoid referencing the thread I was allowed to post "by special permission" but if you read it you will see how the chronological arrangfement is NOT concerned with a logical arrangement.
Not included in that thread is a proximation of the original works as provided by the Holy Spirit.
If we understand the chronology of the New Testament writings to
be approximately in the order of--
45 A.D. James
48 A.D. Galatians
50 A.D. 1st Thessalonians
51 A.D. 2nd Thessalonians
52 A.D. Mathew
54/55 1st Corinthians (Spring) 2nd Corinthians (Fall)
56 Romans
58 Luke
60 Colossians
60 Ephesians
60 Philemon
61 Philippians
61 Acts
64/65 1st Timothy; Titus; 1st Peter
66/67 2nd Peter
67/78 2nd Timothy
68-70 Hebrews; Revelation; Mark
75 Jude
85 1st; 2nd; 3rd John
96 Gospel of John
What say you?
Quote from: Theo Book on April 04, 2010, 08:16:14 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 02, 2010, 09:44:18 PM
No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?
Well, if you are NOT a "poor soul" you are no servant of Christ, and I have indeed misplaced you among God's servants. Do I owe you an apology for that?
Than do you include yourself in the "some poor soul" category?
Quote from: Theo Book on April 04, 2010, 08:17:40 PM
I believe it was a reference to aiwnion referencing both Salvation AND punishment as "aiwnion" and if you deny one you deny the other. That was a topic within the parameters of the study thread.
So, if thayer thinks Jesus got his understanding of Aiwnion and eternality from pagans, he must think God is a pagan.
Jesus never used the word aion or aionion. Jesus used the word "olam". He spoke Aramaic Hebrew. To this day in Hebrew olam is a constructive word with whatever is is conjoined with, for instance, olam ha-ze- meaning this world with its trials and miseries, and olam ha-ba meaning the world after death (reference: Enyclopedia Britanninca, Olam Ha-Ba). Therefore, aion and aionion derives its meaning from the Hebrew cosmology and word usages of olam, not the Greek cosmology and Aristotles usages of aion, because aion is merely a translation of the word Jesus and Paul used, which was olam. In determining truth, we must look to the frame of reference of the speakers thoughts. The usage of olam in the OT is a larger study than I will address here. It has been addressed several times on this forum and there are many things written about it in online resources. Peace , John
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 05, 2010, 05:47:04 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 04, 2010, 08:16:14 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 02, 2010, 09:44:18 PM
No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?
Well, if you are NOT a "poor soul" you are no servant of Christ, and I have indeed misplaced you among God's servants. Do I owe you an apology for that?
Than do you include yourself in the "some poor soul" category?
Among the "poorest."
Quote from: eaglesway on April 05, 2010, 07:20:06 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 04, 2010, 08:17:40 PM
I believe it was a reference to aiwnion referencing both Salvation AND punishment as "aiwnion" and if you deny one you deny the other. That was a topic within the parameters of the study thread.
So, if thayer thinks Jesus got his understanding of Aiwnion and eternality from pagans, he must think God is a pagan.
Jesus never used the word aion or aionion. Jesus used the word "olam". He spoke Aramaic Hebrew. To this day in Hebrew olam is a constructive word with whatever is is conjoined with, for instance, olam ha-ze- meaning this world with its trials and miseries, and olam ha-ba meaning the world after death (reference: Enyclopedia Britanninca, Olam Ha-Ba). Therefore, aion and aionion derives its meaning from the Hebrew cosmology and word usages of olam, not the Greek cosmology and Aristotles usages of aion, because aion is merely a translation of the word Jesus and Paul used, which was olam. In determining truth, we must look to the frame of reference of the speakers thoughts. The usage of olam in the OT is a larger study than I will address here. It has been addressed several times on this forum and there are many things written about it in online resources. Peace , John
I think you are getting your understanding from books ABOUT the bible, instead of from the bible, my friend. Jesus knew and read Greek scriptures from the Septuagint weekly in the synagogue. And he most certainly DID use aiwn and its different forms in his teaching.
Compare the account in Luke 4:17-20, with both the Hebrew old testament, and the Greek old testament translations of Isaiah 61:1-2.
[aiwna = acc masc sing noun = [UBS] aiwn = age; world order; eternity; from the beginning; and the strengthened form always, forever); Aeon (personified as an evil force); existence, the present life
Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.[aiwna accusative masculine singular noun]
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: [aiwniou (aiwnios) genitive neuter singular adjective]
Mark 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]
Luke 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
[aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
[aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective]
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
[aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]
John 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.[aiwna (aiwn) accusaive masculine singular noun]
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun] but the Son abideth ever. [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
[aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]
John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.[aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun](Never = "unto the age"]
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective]; and they shall never perish [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun], neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]. Believest thou this? ("Never die" = "unto the age."
John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
John 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet.[aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun] Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.("Never" = "unto the age)
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]
=======================================================================================================
[aiwnas = accusative masculine plural noun]
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever [aiwnas (aiwn) accusative masculine plural noun]; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
=======================================================================================================
[aiwni = dative masculine singular noun]
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [aiwni (aiwn) dative masculine singular noun], neither in the world to come.
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the (1)world to come (2)eternal life.
(1)[aiwni (aiwn) dative masculine singular noun]; (2)[aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective]
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the (1)world to come life (2)everlasting.(1)[aiwni (aiwn) dative masculine singular noun];(2)[aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective]
======================================================================================================
aiwnios = accusative neuter singular adjective
[UBS] aivw,nioj, on eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative neutral singular adjective] everlasting fire.
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life?
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative neuter singular adjective] everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal.
Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life?
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life.
Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life?
Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life?
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun] never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life.
John 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life[aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective]everlasting life.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:28 And I give unto them [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life; and they shall [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun] never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal.
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
This is just a partial list, limited to the gospels, from a list of 160 verses using 13 word-forms of the term aiwn. And there are still 70 more verses using six different forms of the word aiwn. I only used the references to the words Christ spoke.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 05, 2010, 04:12:26 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 05, 2010, 05:47:04 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 04, 2010, 08:16:14 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 02, 2010, 09:44:18 PM
No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?
Well, if you are NOT a "poor soul" you are no servant of Christ, and I have indeed misplaced you among God's servants. Do I owe you an apology for that?
Than do you include yourself in the "some poor soul" category?
Among the "poorest."
Then, in your first reference, calling me the "some poor soul" does not make any sense.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 04, 2010, 08:38:59 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 04, 2010, 05:17:24 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 03, 2010, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 03, 2010, 03:25:08 AM
I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude. Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that? Thanks.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3018.msg93599;topicseen#msg93599
Alright, thanks all for the info. I'm thinking of making tabs and marking the books of my Bible 1,2,3, etc. in the order you've given. May help me conceptualize the flow, primary audiance and intent, helping to "rightly divide the Word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15) :thumbsup:
I have tried to avoid referencing the thread I was allowed to post "by special permission" but if you read it you will see how the chronological arrangfement is NOT concerned with a logical arrangement.
Not included in that thread is a proximation of the original works as provided by the Holy Spirit.
If we understand the chronology of the New Testament writings to
be approximately in the order of--
45 A.D. James
48 A.D. Galatians
50 A.D. 1st Thessalonians
51 A.D. 2nd Thessalonians
52 A.D. Mathew
54/55 1st Corinthians (Spring) 2nd Corinthians (Fall)
56 Romans
58 Luke
60 Colossians
60 Ephesians
60 Philemon
61 Philippians
61 Acts
64/65 1st Timothy; Titus; 1st Peter
66/67 2nd Peter
67/78 2nd Timothy
68-70 Hebrews; Revelation; Mark
75 Jude
85 1st; 2nd; 3rd John
96 Gospel of John
What say you?
I would say "this is wrong".
CHB
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 05, 2010, 06:23:16 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 05, 2010, 04:12:26 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 05, 2010, 05:47:04 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 04, 2010, 08:16:14 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 02, 2010, 09:44:18 PM
No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?
Well, if you are NOT a "poor soul" you are no servant of Christ, and I have indeed misplaced you among God's servants. Do I owe you an apology for that?
Than do you include yourself in the "some poor soul" category?
Among the "poorest."
Then, in your first reference, calling me the "some poor soul" does not make any sense.
o.k. change it to read "one of the saints" and we'll both be happy.
Quote from: CHB on April 05, 2010, 06:25:14 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 04, 2010, 08:38:59 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 04, 2010, 05:17:24 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 03, 2010, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 03, 2010, 03:25:08 AM
I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude. Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that? Thanks.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3018.msg93599;topicseen#msg93599
Alright, thanks all for the info. I'm thinking of making tabs and marking the books of my Bible 1,2,3, etc. in the order you've given. May help me conceptualize the flow, primary audiance and intent, helping to "rightly divide the Word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15) :thumbsup:
I have tried to avoid referencing the thread I was allowed to post "by special permission" but if you read it you will see how the chronological arrangfement is NOT concerned with a logical arrangement.
Not included in that thread is a proximation of the original works as provided by the Holy Spirit.
If we understand the chronology of the New Testament writings to
be approximately in the order of--
45 A.D. James
48 A.D. Galatians
50 A.D. 1st Thessalonians
51 A.D. 2nd Thessalonians
52 A.D. Mathew
54/55 1st Corinthians (Spring) 2nd Corinthians (Fall)
56 Romans
58 Luke
60 Colossians
60 Ephesians
60 Philemon
61 Philippians
61 Acts
64/65 1st Timothy; Titus; 1st Peter
66/67 2nd Peter
67/78 2nd Timothy
68-70 Hebrews; Revelation; Mark
75 Jude
85 1st; 2nd; 3rd John
96 Gospel of John
What say you?
I would say "this is wrong".
CHB
o.k.
And you've made a study of this for how many years?
Oh about 25.
CHB
Quote from: Theo Book on April 05, 2010, 06:03:47 PM
I think you are getting your understanding from books ABOUT the bible, instead of from the bible, my friend. Jesus knew and read Greek scriptures from the Septuagint weekly in the synagogue.
The influence of Greek culture in the first century is clear, "Theophilus." Although Jesus would probably be best described as being multilingual (Greek and Aramaic, possibly Hebrew or Latin as well). However, Aramaic would have been his first language, whereas, the Greek or Hebrew being a second; an acquired language. But, I have one question, not that it matters much – are you by chance a Jehovah's Witnesses?
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on April 05, 2010, 09:18:58 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 05, 2010, 06:03:47 PM
I think you are getting your understanding from books ABOUT the bible, instead of from the bible, my friend. Jesus knew and read Greek scriptures from the Septuagint weekly in the synagogue.
The influence of Greek culture in the first century is clear, "Theophilus." Although Jesus would probably be best described as being multilingual (Greek and Aramaic, possibly Hebrew or Latin as well). However, Aramaic would have been his first language, whereas, the Greek or Hebrew being a second; an acquired language. But, I have one question, not that it matters much – are you by chance a Jehovah's Witnesses?
peacemaker
Too bad the synagogues in which he frequented himself, did not have an "Aramaic scripture." Or "Hebrew" or Latin." The Hebrew scriptures were found only in the temple, while the synagogues contained the Greek Septuagint. When Jesus read from the scriptures, it was always either Hebrew/Chaldee or Greek. Why then would he "quote scripture" from texts that did not exist? THAT comes only from commentaries and books about the bible.
And since his audiences were almost exclusively Jews, why would he be presenting his Hebrew and Greek scripture lessons in Arimaic, or Latin, or any other of a number of prevalent languages of his day?
Quote from: Theo Book on April 05, 2010, 10:56:52 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on April 05, 2010, 09:18:58 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 05, 2010, 06:03:47 PM
I think you are getting your understanding from books ABOUT the bible, instead of from the bible, my friend. Jesus knew and read Greek scriptures from the Septuagint weekly in the synagogue.
The influence of Greek culture in the first century is clear, "Theophilus." Although Jesus would probably be best described as being multilingual (Greek and Aramaic, possibly Hebrew or Latin as well). However, Aramaic would have been his first language, whereas, the Greek or Hebrew being a second; an acquired language. But, I have one question, not that it matters much – are you by chance a Jehovah's Witness?
Too bad the synagogues in which he frequented himself, did not have an "Aramaic scripture." Or "Hebrew" or Latin." The Hebrew scriptures were found only in the temple, while the synagogues contained the Greek Septuagint. When Jesus read from the scriptures, it was always either Hebrew/Chaldee or Greek. Why then would he "quote scripture" from texts that did not exist? THAT comes only from commentaries and books about the bible.
And since his audiences were almost exclusively Jews, why would he be presenting his Hebrew and Greek scripture lessons in Arimaic, or Latin, or any other of a number of prevalent languages of his day?
Surely, He spoke the language of the day, contextually.
You may have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.
You also appeared to avoid the question?
QuoteI think you are getting your understanding from books ABOUT the bible, instead of from the bible, my friend. Jesus knew and read Greek scriptures from the Septuagint weekly in the synagogue. And he most certainly DID use aiwn and its different forms in his teaching.
Probably true , that is why aion and aionios are absolutely pertaining to periods of time that are unknown and those terms are used in the abstract as how those undetermined stretches of time will be percieved.
"That stop light took forever this morning." In the absolute it was temporary, in the abstract the amount of time it was going to take was undetermined while in the midst of that frame of time. Even if I had previously known the timing of the stoplight, a failure of that timing mechanism could result, so there was no way of actually predicting with absolute certainty that it was going to change. So the perception of time while waiting was a perception far greater than actually occured.
If you are to be held accountable for what you do, and you are to awaken to a form of correction, just how long will that be? You can't say, no one can, but anyone who has any amount of life experience will understand that when your in the midst of something that has ended up changing you, it seems like it may never end.
That is just the bible showing the truth of how human beings perceive things.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 05, 2010, 10:56:52 PM
And since his audiences were almost exclusively Jews, why would he be presenting his Hebrew and Greek scripture lessons in Arimaic, or Latin, or any other of a number of prevalent languages of his day?
In any case, the question is, if Jesus used the word aionion, was He thinking like a Hebrew, form the cosmology of the Hebrews, and the word olam. Or was He thinking what contemporary western scholars think when they read Plato or Aristotle. Whatever you believe Jesus was reading( Hebrew/Chaldee, Hebrew/Aramaic or Greek) the only thing that matters is what He thought, and as almost every word He ever spoke repeated or amplified the words of the prophets(the testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy)- through whom the spirit of Christ had spoken prior to His birth- it is VERY safe to assume that the old testament usage of olam expresses the thought of Jesus most accurately.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 06, 2010, 08:06:20 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 05, 2010, 10:56:52 PM
And since his audiences were almost exclusively Jews, why would he be presenting his Hebrew and Greek scripture lessons in Arimaic, or Latin, or any other of a number of prevalent languages of his day?
In any case, the question is, if Jesus used the word aionion, was He thinking like a Hebrew, from the cosmology of the Hebrews, and the word olam. Or was He thinking what contemporary western scholars think when they read Plato or Aristotle. Whatever you believe Jesus was reading( Hebrew/Chaldee, Hebrew/Aramaic or Greek) the only thing that matters is what He thought, and as almost every word He ever spoke repeated or amplified the words of the prophets(the testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy)- through whom the spirit of Christ had spoken prior to His birth- it is VERY safe to assume that the old testament usage of olam expresses the thought of Jesus most accurately.
And you know what Jesus was thinking, how? Since scripture tells us that every word Jesus spoke was not his own, but was given him to speak by his Father, and "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?" [Rom 11:34]
I have always been a believer in that by which I was college trained, i.e., understand what the words of scripture are. It is quite complicated enough without pretending to know what Jesus thought INSTEAD of the words Jesus spoke. Since the Holy Romans 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Since the Holy Spirit saw fit to reveal scripture in the Greek new testament, I will satisfy myself with what is recorded, instead of trying to tell you what Jesus was really thinking, when he quoted old testament scriptures. There was a REASON for not publishing the new testament in Hebrew, and that was tied to changing the Hebrew understanding from old testament thought patterns, to a "new and living way."
When God wanted us to follow a Hebrew concept, he caused the Greek of the new testament to reflect many
"Hebraisms" and to include all that was pertinent to our understanding on the issue. But to ask us to try to figure out what Jesus was actually thinking.....??? I don't think so.
Theo, I am not trying to make some mystic claim here.
I know what Jesus was thinking by the Holy Spirit and by the overall context of the logos. It is a simple statement of where we go to best understand translation and the vagaries of it. If a person doesn t think they can understand the thoughts of the speaker.... they are just a theology student, not a disciple. To deny the many scriptures that teach the salvation of all over the translation of one greek word like aionion could be an error of serious proportions, especially if the meaning of that word is being determined in a superficial way- like the thoughts of Greek contemporaries and not the speakers primary language.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 06, 2010, 05:58:21 PM
Theo, I am not trying to make some mystic claim here.
I know what Jesus was thinking by the Holy Spirit and by the overall context of the logos. It is a simple statement of where we go to best understand translation and the vagaries of it. If a person doesn t think they can understand the thoughts of the speaker.... they are just a theology student, not a disciple. To deny the many scriptures that teach the salvation of all over the translation of one greek word like aionion could be an error of serious proportions, especially if the meaning of that word is being determined in a superficial way- like the thoughts of Greek contemporaries and not the speakers primary language.
The problem here is that it still comes down to intepretation whether we like it or not. I mean no offense, but I ofteb hear 2 people say they know something by the holy spirit and both points will be polar opposites, so who gets to be right. If you know by the holky spirit then a physical point is not needed, however, you still carry the burden of proof to assert to another that you "really" heard the spirit.
Fact is I believe the holy spirit does speak to us, but it is meant for our own life, to be intepreted for our personal use, not to prove a point of view.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2010, 06:36:08 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on April 06, 2010, 05:58:21 PM
Theo, I am not trying to make some mystic claim here.
I know what Jesus was thinking by the Holy Spirit and by the overall context of the logos. It is a simple statement of where we go to best understand translation and the vagaries of it. If a person doesn t think they can understand the thoughts of the speaker.... they are just a theology student, not a disciple. To deny the many scriptures that teach the salvation of all over the translation of one greek word like aionion could be an error of serious proportions, especially if the meaning of that word is being determined in a superficial way- like the thoughts of Greek contemporaries and not the speakers primary language.
The problem here is that it still comes down to intepretation whether we like it or not. I mean no offense, but I ofteb hear 2 people say they know something by the holy spirit and both points will be polar opposites, so who gets to be right. If you know by the holky spirit then a physical point is not needed, however, you still carry the burden of proof to assert to another that you "really" heard the spirit.
Fact is I believe the holy spirit does speak to us, but it is meant for our own life, to be intepreted for our personal use, not to prove a point of view.
OOOH! I think I agree with THAT. I place Holy Spirit inspiration in the same category I place miracles in my life.l do believe there have been miracles in my life, but I do not believe anyone else would consider it to be so, nor do I believe those miracles were applied to me to share with others. I am made aware by circumstances of too many time I was not only lost, but was pursuing a losing path, when God intervened in my life, in a way not pleasing to me, but he stopped me. And i am not speakiong of "respect of persons" I am speaking of times he chastises his children for their good. i believe in it.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 06, 2010, 05:58:21 PM
Theo, I am not trying to make some mystic claim here.
I know what Jesus was thinking by the Holy Spirit and by the overall context of the logos. It is a simple statement of where we go to best understand translation and the vagaries of it. If a person doesn t think they can understand the thoughts of the speaker.... they are just a theology student, not a disciple. To deny the many scriptures that teach the salvation of all over the translation of one greek word like aionion could be an error of serious proportions, especially if the meaning of that word is being determined in a superficial way- like the thoughts of Greek contemporaries and not the speakers primary language.
Dear poor soul, I was not accusing you of making some mystic claim. I understand what it is to try to make a perspective clear to one who has a different perspective.
The problem I am having with this whole issue, is in understanding how it is that God is the source of two such opposing views.
Response #'s 2 and 87 (to reference just two of several) seem to me to be saying "God made me do it" while God clearly says "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." [Acts 5:3-4]
I am not striving for some semblance of a victory here, I am trying to understand a concept that I see as foreign to the scripture.
Well Theo, I know and you know, that God is never the source of two opposing views. In my journey, I have found that when it seems to be so.... the truth lies beyond the extremes, and I just keep seeking. I trust that all will eventually become clear, "That whereby when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ".
The treasure is all there in the field- we just have to keep digging for it. Sometimes we argue "heads" versus "tails" because we don't have the whole coin of the truth, "the whole counsel of God" so to speak. I certainly do not claim to have the whole counsel of God, but I believe it is available, because the scripture teaches that it is... "He will lead you into all truth"..."He will take what is mine and give it to you".....until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ"
There is a lot of information out there, and even as ETrs and annihilationists disagree among themselves over many things, so also believers in the salvation of all. So we all just have to sift and be sifted, together, in a spirit of fellowship and edification, because God is not the author of confusion- but neither has He given us a spirit of fear, but rather of power, love and a sound mind- so peace brother, and keep on truckin (seekin I mean :o)), John
Quote from: eaglesway on April 07, 2010, 07:58:26 AM
Well Theo, I know and you know, that God is never the source of two opposing views. In my journey, I have found that when it seems to be so.... the truth lies beyond the extremes, and I just keep seeking. I trust that all will eventually become clear, "That whereby when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ".
The treasure is all there in the field- we just have to keep digging for it. Sometimes we argue "heads" versus "tails" because we don't have the whole coin of the truth, "the whole counsel of God" so to speak. I certainly do not claim to have the whole counsel of God, but I believe it is available, because the scripture teaches that it is... "He will lead you into all truth"..."He will take what is mine and give it to you".....until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ"
There is a lot of information out there, and even as ETrs and annihilationists disagree among themselves over many things, so also believers in the salvation of all. So we all just have to sift and be sifted, together, in a spirit of fellowship and edification, because God is not the author of confusion- but neither has He given us a spirit of fear, but rather of power, love and a sound mind- so peace brother, and keep on truckin (seekin I mean :o)), John
Thanks - you are very gracious, and have been helpful in my search. I will save the thread, and print it out for further study; and may get back to you later.
Quote from: Theo Book
The problem I am having with this whole issue, is in understanding how it is that God is the source of two such opposing views.
Response #'s 2 and 87 (to reference just two of several) seem to me to be saying "God made me do it" while God clearly says "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." [Acts 5:3-4]
I am not striving for some semblance of a victory here, I am trying to understand a concept that I see as foreign to the scripture.
Theo,
Who created satan? If Satan filled my heart to lie, Satan made me do it, but the only thing is who gave Satan the authority to put it in my heart? Since my heart is deceitful and wicked already of which God created, then the result would be to lie wouldn't you think?
CHB
Let's rephrase the question . . .rather than who made satan, how about who "is" satan?
ut oh...
— this is going to get interesting!
Maybe that should be on it's own thread?
Agreed.
Be prepared for many strong opinions.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 04, 2010, 08:17:40 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 02, 2010, 09:45:53 PM
Also,
You said that we at Tentmaker do not serve an eternal God.
What do you mean by that?
I believe it was a reference to aiwnion referencing both Salvation AND punishment as "aiwnion" and if you deny one you deny the other. That was a topic within the parameters of the study thread.
If you will read Thayer's report on the scholars page, you will see that he reaches the conclusion about "aiwnion" NOT referencing eternal, and eternity, because the Jews had no such expectation under the Mosaic or other covenants. AND he says Christ got his understanding from the pagan religions around him. With that I disagree. Jesus was fully involved with his Father, and got all of his doctrines and understanding from the father, speaking only what the Father gave him to say. So, if thayer thinks Jesus got his understanding of Aiwnion and eternality from pagans, he must think God is a pagan.
I disagree.
NOW is the DAY of SALVATION --
2 Cor 6:2 -- and,
NOW is the DAY of PUNISHMENT... (judgement against/sow-reap) --
John 12:31Which are BOTH "
NOW", and are found within the (GREAT=salvation
AND TERRIBLE=punishment)
"DAY" of
YHVH, in which ALL GENERATIONS (of the Heaven and the earth) appear and are created --
Gen 2:4 -- which is GOING ON ---
NOW!
...willieH :cloud9:
The issue is not just who or what is Satan, but also how does he operate. With God's permission? By God's Prime directive? Is God the directive influence in every evil decision? Has God created a parameter within which Satan and the sons of disobedience are free to choose evil in this age? Are we as the redeemed choosing within this parameter but chosen according to the foreknowledge of God? Are all these questions seen through a glass darkly, and the source of wranglings about words that do not edify and minister grace?
There are about 40 more questions such as these which probably cannot even be discussed politely for any length of time from what I have seen- and the banned free will/sov discussion is at the core of it, so I will just keep asking questions.
If God has predestined all things why does He find fault? What if He has endured the vessels of wrath in order to make manifest the vessels of mercy? How can the clay say to the potter, why hast thou made me thus? Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor? Who has given to Him that he should repay? Who knows the thoughts of a man but the spirit that is in the man?
Whew! I don't know if there should be a thread on that or not :dontknow:
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are mature: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1Co 2:6-14)
Who? What? When? Where? Why? And, How?
Quote from: peacemaker on April 08, 2010, 07:23:48 AM
Who? What? When? Where? Why? And, How?
You left out the universal, "hunh?"
(TB)
Quote
The problem I am having with this whole issue, is in understanding how it is that God is the source of two such opposing views.
Response #'s 2 and 87 (to reference just two of several) seem to me to be saying "God made me do it" while God clearly says "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." [Acts 5:3-4]
I am not striving for some semblance of a victory here, I am trying to understand a concept that I see as foreign to the scripture.
(CHB) Theo, Who created satan?
Well, IF he is a fallen angel, God did.
Psalm 148:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
But even Jesus called him "the God of this world." "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom THE GOD OF THIS WORLD hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." [II Cor 4:3-4]
CONSIDER:
GOD HAS ANGELS:
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give HIS ANGELS charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
GOD PROVIDES ADVERSARIES
Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and THE ANGEL OF THE LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
Num 22:32 And THE ANGEL OF THE LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
DEVIL HAS ANGELS
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS:
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the DEVIL, and SATAN, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, AND HIS ANGELS were cast out with him.
CONSIDER:
IT WAS GOD WHO GAVE LIFE; BUT THE POWER OF DEATH BELONGS TO SATAN:
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy HIM THAT HAD the POWER OF DEATH, that is, THE DEVIL;
I find no verse that says Satan IS an angel, only that he and HIS ANGELS did such and such. I find no verse that says God created Satan, the Devil, nor any other euphism that applies, unless he is in fact, an angel, which verse we lack. (Unless you know of one and will provide it)
I know that God rules all things. I know Satan rules in the earth. I know that Satan serves as an adversary to man, in God's universe. I know that God sent Satan as an adversary to David, to get David to number the people. I know many things. I don't know many things.
(CHB)
QuoteIf Satan filled my heart to lie, Satan made me do it, but the only thing is who gave Satan the authority to put it in my heart? Since my heart is deceitful and wicked already of which God created, then the result would be to lie wouldn't you think?
You would so think. HOWEVER; With every temptation, God has provided a way of escape. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." [I Cor 10:13]
God wants us to make good choices.
amen
Traducer and adversary. I'm going to stir the waters here just a bit on this because the subject is still relevant to this understanding. For me, the Scripture never used the words "devil" or "satan", or "hell" for that matter. The translators chose those words when they took it from Greek/Hebrew to English. The word for devil is actually traducer, and the word for satan is actually adversary.
It "is" important to know who satan is because it unlocks better understanding of how he operates and what his origin is. What does Scripture reveal about the mind of man? Is it not always at "emnity" with God? When Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan, what was really going on there? Peter became an adversary to the purpose of Jesus' ministry, he didn't become "demon posessed", he was simply reacting to his mind. He had good intentions for doing what he did, but even in good intentions, the natural mind is still at emnity against the things of God.
To traduce means to accuse. The accuser of the brethren is the same thing. What is the source? It's not . .again, this is just how "I'm" seeing it, I'm not trying to lay out a new doctrine on anyone . . .but I no longer see satan in the traditional sense that he's this head evil imp that is in control over all demon imps that create terror in the land.
The serpent in the garden, the dragon in Revelation and satan are all one and the same, everyone agrees with that because Scripture says it. However, what if satan is not on the outside of us influencing our inside thinking . . .what if satan (remember, the original word is simply adversary) IS our mind? Think about it. If our mind was not an adversary, then why does it need to be renewed everyday?
Bad things happen as a result of people living according to their own minds, rather than according to the leading of the spirit. Why does God "allow" it? Because he "gave" us the authority to bring life or death in this realm. Carnality is the prince of the air of this realm we live in. But we're not "of" this world, and that's why our "spirit" has authority over our flesh. We're from a higher realm and as such, we can overcome the darkness in this realm by pursuing the light in the spirit realm.
"Thy kingdom COME, thy will be done ON EARTH as IT IS in heaven. When we release the powers of heaven on this earth, death and darkness no longer have the authority.
In the garden, satan was just a serpent. In Revelation he became a dragon. He grew? You bet he did. How? Because "dust" is the serpents meat. Dust is what we are made from. What does that mean? It means when you feed into carnality, it feeds off of you. When you embrace natural reasoning over spiritual revelation, the serpent in you gains more ground until it rules your every thought, your every motive and action. But it's all inward. That's the wrestling Paul speaks of. There's an adverse nature in every one of us that will always find argument with kingdom principles because my mind is not equipped to reason spiritual matters.
Spiritual truth is birthed, it is not learned or taught. This is why our spirits are to take "captive" our thoughts. It's because our spirits have authority and our thoughts are the adversary.
The devil is what my mind "does". It traduces, it accuses, it emphasizes the nakedness in me and others. Satan is what my mind "is". It's always the adversary against the nature of the kingdom of God.
Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just sharing it as I see it with no condemnation toward anyone who chooses to see it differently. But I've found that when I yeild myself to seeing it this way, everything seems to really fit together and I get excited about that because I also realize that greater is he that is in me (the Spirit) than he that is in the world (carnality).
Another picture of this is in Revelation where the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns (ever wonder how you get 10 horns into 7 heads? It doesn't fit when using natural logic) and the beast had been dead but had come back to life. For me, the "head" is referring to the mind. 7 is the number of completion and fulfillment and 10 is the number of law. Horns represent power. So this beast is actually a picture of carnal man in his completed state of carnality that is governed, it's power comes from living in law and the woman riding the beast is the mind that controls the body.
When I read the part about the beast that was, wasn't and now is again, for me, is referring to what Jesus did on the cross. He took us from death and into life. He gave us the power to resurrect and the power to inflict death.
It's all about the redemptive work of the cross that has resurrected the beast, even though the beast is governed by it's own mind, we see that this mind is against the Lamb as well. Yet it can not over come the Lamb. It's all about the mind of man against the power of God.
Song of Solomon 2:
10; My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
11; For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone
Colossians 1:
21; And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles
22; by His body of flesh, through His death, to present you holy and flawless and unimpeachable in His sight
Psalm 17:
15; I — in righteousness, I see Thy face; I am satisfied, in awaking, with Thy form!
Quote from: Nathan on April 08, 2010, 06:03:37 PM
Traducer and adversary. I'm going to stir the waters here just a bit on this because the subject is still relevant to this understanding. For me, the Scripture never used the words "devil" or "satan", or "hell" for that matter. The translators chose those words when they took it from Greek/Hebrew to English. The word for devil is actually traducer, and the word for satan is actually adversary.
It "is" important to know who satan is because it unlocks better understanding of how he operates and what his origin is. What does Scripture reveal about the mind of man? Is it not always at "emnity" with God? When Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan, what was really going on there? Peter became an adversary to the purpose of Jesus' ministry, he didn't become "demon posessed", he was simply reacting to his mind. He had good intentions for doing what he did, but even in good intentions, the natural mind is still at emnity against the things of God.
To traduce means to accuse. The accuser of the brethren is the same thing. What is the source? It's not . .again, this is just how "I'm" seeing it, I'm not trying to lay out a new doctrine on anyone . . .but I no longer see satan in the traditional sense that he's this head evil imp that is in control over all demon imps that create terror in the land.
The serpent in the garden, the dragon in Revelation and satan are all one and the same, everyone agrees with that because Scripture says it. However, what if satan is not on the outside of us influencing our inside thinking . . .what if satan (remember, the original word is simply adversary) IS our mind? Think about it. If our mind was not an adversary, then why does it need to be renewed everyday?
Bad things happen as a result of people living according to their own minds, rather than according to the leading of the spirit. Why does God "allow" it? Because he "gave" us the authority to bring life or death in this realm. Carnality is the prince of the air of this realm we live in. But we're not "of" this world, and that's why our "spirit" has authority over our flesh. We're from a higher realm and as such, we can overcome the darkness in this realm by pursuing the light in the spirit realm.
"Thy kingdom COME, thy will be done ON EARTH as IT IS in heaven. When we release the powers of heaven on this earth, death and darkness no longer have the authority.
In the garden, satan was just a serpent. In Revelation he became a dragon. He grew? You bet he did. How? Because "dust" is the serpents meat. Dust is what we are made from. What does that mean? It means when you feed into carnality, it feeds off of you. When you embrace natural reasoning over spiritual revelation, the serpent in you gains more ground until it rules your every thought, your every motive and action. But it's all inward. That's the wrestling Paul speaks of. There's an adverse nature in every one of us that will always find argument with kingdom principles because my mind is not equipped to reason spiritual matters.
Spiritual truth is birthed, it is not learned or taught. This is why our spirits are to take "captive" our thoughts. It's because our spirits have authority and our thoughts are the adversary.
The devil is what my mind "does". It traduces, it accuses, it emphasizes the nakedness in me and others. Satan is what my mind "is". It's always the adversary against the nature of the kingdom of God.
Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just sharing it as I see it with no condemnation toward anyone who chooses to see it differently. But I've found that when I yeild myself to seeing it this way, everything seems to really fit together and I get excited about that because I also realize that greater is he that is in me (the Spirit) than he that is in the world (carnality).
Another picture of this is in Revelation where the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns (ever wonder how you get 10 horns into 7 heads? It doesn't fit when using natural logic) and the beast had been dead but had come back to life. For me, the "head" is referring to the mind. 7 is the number of completion and fulfillment and 10 is the number of law. Horns represent power. So this beast is actually a picture of carnal man in his completed state of carnality that is governed, it's power comes from living in law and the woman riding the beast is the mind that controls the body.
When I read the part about the beast that was, wasn't and now is again, for me, is referring to what Jesus did on the cross. He took us from death and into life. He gave us the power to resurrect and the power to inflict death.
It's all about the redemptive work of the cross that has resurrected the beast, even though the beast is governed by it's own mind, we see that this mind is against the Lamb as well. Yet it can not over come the Lamb. It's all about the mind of man against the power of God.
Nathan this is almost exactly how I have seen it for a long time now. You worded it all so well. I am going to read your post again and probably again and again.
I think we need to know who our enemy is and 'his' base of operation for us to be effective for God. Jesus was not ignorant in any area and He was not ignorant about 'who' is at enmity to God. The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. rom8.7
I also firmly believe our enemies are those of our own household (our very selves, our minds!). Matthew 10.36
cp
Hi Nathan,
I see what you wrote as being essentially true at the core of it. I agree with the translation issues you pointed out. I am not sure if you are saying that their are no entities in which this adversary exists beyond that of the mind of man - such as the principalities and powers, rulers of hosts of wickedness, demons, god of this world, etc. Even if you are saying that, although I would disagree with that, the core issue as regards believers that you are putting forth I do agree with.
If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If we are renewed in the spirit of our mind after the image of Christ, then the carnal mind is mortified and buried. If we are carnally minded the things of God are foolishness to us. The letter kills, only the Spirit gives life.
The dragon having 10 horns and 7 heads could simply mean that three of its heads have two horns, and as we see in Dan. heads and horns can be related to kingdoms, their ruling principalities, etc. Nevertheless, in what I call "the principle of wheels within wheels", the outer substance is often only the manifestation of the deeper inner principle or spiritual reality.
Ex.
The dragon sends out a flood of lies in order to swallow the man-child before he can be birthed.
This true as Herod sends forth assassins to slay all the first born sons under the age of two, in order to prevent the birth of the manchild appointed to rule all nations. "Rachel weeping for her children"
This is true in me, as God seeks to bring forth a mature disciple who can be caught up to His throne. "For the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit lusts against the flesh".
This is true in the body of Christ (Eph 4) as our mother, the New Jerusalem from above(who is free) is in birth pangs....."until we all attain to the untiy of the faith, to a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ(manchild)"....."so that we will no longer be as children tossed to and fro by waves, by every wind of doctrine, by the craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming(dragon)"
This is true of the earth, the creation, the kosmos- subjected to futility and waiting eagerly for its liberation into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
If I was to set up around one of the wheels, or pitch my tent on one of the layers of the onion, I might never arrive at the mind of Christ which encompasses all of them, each having its purpose and rightful application in an administration suitable to the fulness of times, and all one in the matrix of the many faceted wisdom of Christ.
Peace JM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 07, 2010, 06:44:39 AM
The problem I am having with this whole issue, is in understanding how it is that God is the source of two such opposing views.
Response #'s 2 and 87 (to reference just two of several) seem to me to be saying "God made me do it" while God clearly says "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." [Acts 5:3-4]
I am not striving for some semblance of a victory here, I am trying to understand a concept that I see as foreign to the scripture.
Hey Theo,
It is all summed very nicely for me in the fact that it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. God is His own opposer and we are the vehicles He uses. We are His workmanship. He is showing us of Himself in all He does. Everything that is done is God working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. The good, bad and the ugly. This would be horrendous and sinful if the big picture turned out bad but it doesn't, it turns out to be a perfect work, a masterpiece so all is good. God is perfect but He does use black strokes as well as beautiful colorful strokes to make His masterpiece.
Is it too hard for you to see God in His 'strange' work?
cp
willieH: Hi brother N... :hithere:
Quote from: Nathan on April 08, 2010, 06:03:37 PM
Traducer and adversary. I'm going to stir the waters here just a bit on this because the subject is still relevant to this understanding. For me, the Scripture never used the words "devil" or "satan", or "hell" for that matter. The translators chose those words when they took it from Greek/Hebrew to English. The word for devil is actually traducer, and the word for satan is actually adversary.
It "is" important to know who satan is because it unlocks better understanding of how he operates and what his origin is. What does Scripture reveal about the mind of man? Is it not always at "emnity" with God? When Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan, what was really going on there? Peter became an adversary to the purpose of Jesus' ministry, he didn't become "demon posessed", he was simply reacting to his mind. He had good intentions for doing what he did, but even in good intentions, the natural mind is still at emnity against the things of God.
To traduce means to accuse. The accuser of the brethren is the same thing. What is the source? It's not . .again, this is just how "I'm" seeing it, I'm not trying to lay out a new doctrine on anyone . . .but I no longer see satan in the traditional sense that he's this head evil imp that is in control over all demon imps that create terror in the land.
The serpent in the garden, the dragon in Revelation and satan are all one and the same, everyone agrees with that because Scripture says it. However, what if satan is not on the outside of us influencing our inside thinking . . .what if satan (remember, the original word is simply adversary) IS our mind? Think about it. If our mind was not an adversary, then why does it need to be renewed everyday?
Bad things happen as a result of people living according to their own minds, rather than according to the leading of the spirit. Why does God "allow" it? Because he "gave" us the authority to bring life or death in this realm. Carnality is the prince of the air of this realm we live in. But we're not "of" this world, and that's why our "spirit" has authority over our flesh. We're from a higher realm and as such, we can overcome the darkness in this realm by pursuing the light in the spirit realm.
"Thy kingdom COME, thy will be done ON EARTH as IT IS in heaven. When we release the powers of heaven on this earth, death and darkness no longer have the authority.
In the garden, satan was just a serpent. In Revelation he became a dragon. He grew? You bet he did. How? Because "dust" is the serpents meat. Dust is what we are made from. What does that mean? It means when you feed into carnality, it feeds off of you. When you embrace natural reasoning over spiritual revelation, the serpent in you gains more ground until it rules your every thought, your every motive and action. But it's all inward. That's the wrestling Paul speaks of. There's an adverse nature in every one of us that will always find argument with kingdom principles because my mind is not equipped to reason spiritual matters.
Spiritual truth is birthed, it is not learned or taught. This is why our spirits are to take "captive" our thoughts. It's because our spirits have authority and our thoughts are the adversary.
The devil is what my mind "does". It traduces, it accuses, it emphasizes the nakedness in me and others. Satan is what my mind "is". It's always the adversary against the nature of the kingdom of God.
Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just sharing it as I see it with no condemnation toward anyone who chooses to see it differently. But I've found that when I yeild myself to seeing it this way, everything seems to really fit together and I get excited about that because I also realize that greater is he that is in me (the Spirit) than he that is in the world (carnality).
Another picture of this is in Revelation where the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns (ever wonder how you get 10 horns into 7 heads? It doesn't fit when using natural logic) and the beast had been dead but had come back to life. For me, the "head" is referring to the mind. 7 is the number of completion and fulfillment and 10 is the number of law. Horns represent power. So this beast is actually a picture of carnal man in his completed state of carnality that is governed, it's power comes from living in law and the woman riding the beast is the mind that controls the body.
When I read the part about the beast that was, wasn't and now is again, for me, is referring to what Jesus did on the cross. He took us from death and into life. He gave us the power to resurrect and the power to inflict death.
It's all about the redemptive work of the cross that has resurrected the beast, even though the beast is governed by it's own mind, we see that this mind is against the Lamb as well. Yet it can not over come the Lamb. It's all about the mind of man against the power of God.
Very well said brother N... I enjoyed your summary of these nonexistent myths ("satan & devils"), which only serve to add FEAR, give excuse, and distract from the truth... :sigh:
Btw... I have been of this same belief and have spoken of it, for quite some time... :winkgrin:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Yes Willie, you have, and I've been blessed.
If you could find you post about the birthing of fear and demons, it would fit here nicely.
Your brother in Christ,
— dave.
Wow . . . great to know Willie! I know you know the Scriptures and I've always enjoyed your application of them as well. I appreciate your comments.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 08, 2010, 10:41:08 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on April 08, 2010, 07:23:48 AM
Who? What? When? Where? Why? And, How?
You left out the universal, "hunh?"
"The beast nature in us insists upon having its own way."Thanks Nathan for the simplicity regarding the human nature. :thumbsup:
Nathan,
I really don't see how anything you wrote about the natural mind, eliminates in anyway the potential existence of a being or beings who are corporeal spirits. All of the traducing and adversity in us operates on the principles you illustrated, even if there are such beings. They may also be a part of God's creation of chaos. The woman with the familiar spirit in Acts had supernatural assistance in divination until Paul cast it out. The she was no longer so enabled. This caused the riot because much financial gain was obtained by her soothsaying. Yet Paul's casting out of the familiar spirit did not necessarily change her mind in any way.
The first words of Genesis- "and behold it was formless and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters" are a picture of the natural man.... until the Voice...."Let there be light" issues forth into the chaos and there is separation, Light from Darkness. Then as the Voice speaks further there is more specific separation, heavens above and heavens below. If as I believe, there are also corporeal spirits who are adversaries by God's appointment, they work in concert with the sympathetic nature of the natural man, and in the same mind, i.e. "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience". They also work in the "heaven", of the natural man, who is veiled from the "heavenly realms in Christ Jesus", because they have their eyes blinded by the theos of this aion, the prince of the power of the air. I think this passage illustrates what I am saying.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course(aion) of this world(kosmos), according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:1-7)
Peace, John
Quote from: eaglesway on April 09, 2010, 08:35:57 AM
Nathan,
I really don't see how anything you wrote about the natural mind, eliminates in anyway the potential existence of a being or beings who are corporeal spirits. All of the traducing and adversity in us operates on the principles you illustrated, even if there are such beings. They may also be a part of God's creation of chaos. The woman with the familiar spirit in Acts had supernatural assistance in divination until Paul cast it out. The she was no longer so enabled. This caused the riot because much financial gain was obtained by her soothsaying. Yet Paul's casting out of the familiar spirit did not necessarily change her mind in any way.
The first words of Genesis- "and behold it was formless and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters" are a picture of the natural man.... until the Voice...."Let there be light" issues forth into the chaos and there is separation, Light from Darkness. Then as the Voice speaks further there is more specific separation, heavens above and heavens below. If as I believe, there are also corporeal spirits who are adversaries by God's appointment, they work in concert with the sympathetic nature of the natural man, and in the same mind, i.e. "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience". They also work in the "heaven", of the natural man, who is veiled from the "heavenly realms in Christ Jesus", because they have their eyes blinded by the theos of this aion, the prince of the power of the air. I think this passage illustrates what I am saying.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course(aion) of this world(kosmos), according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:1-7)
Peace, John
I have much to learn, and many miles to go before I sleep.
Eagles way, you said some great stuff there. I guess for me, it just depends on which dimension you want relate to. As you stated about Genesis where creation of the earth is actually a pattern of man. Seeing it as the earth is one dimension, seeing it as man is another dimension.
For me, it's the same with demons to a degree. I'm still far from mature in this area, there are still many blanks that are yet to be filled in. But UR already disagrees with the rapture, but how did they come to do that unless they went to the original text and saw that much was lost in translation. Or much was added in translation either way, that's always pulling at me in these other areas as well.
The original text doesn't have the word "demons" and neither does the KJV. However, I'm not about to denounce the fact that they don't exist. However, what I "have" learned and I do speak from experience on this is, when we walk in the spirit, it's a whole other realm of power.
Just as in the Old Testament, the people had to labor in their efforts to be obedient to the laws of God. In the New Testament, Christ fulfilled those laws and now God does in and for us what we once had to do ourselves for him. We grow, we change and the more we walk in Him the more he reveals to us of his nature. The more I walk in his nature, the less I'm concerned about the happenings in my old one. And I guess that's what I'm eluding to here.
Everything has a spiritual application. The majority of the demon activity seemed to be directly connected with man's mind. Even the legion that entered into the herd of pigs brought it back to the mind. After the spirits left the guy, the last thing it says was that he was calmly sitting clothed and with a sound mind.
The original intent I was going for here is satan and devil don't mean what we think it means. But there seems to be a lot of caution coming from others on this who are concerned about conversations like this doing more harm than good. Which makes it kind of tough because I do see their point in that in arenas of communication such as this, there is such a vast amount of different levels of maturity of people who read these threads.
Walking in the kingdom is like going to school, you can't asked a child in 4th grade who is just getting their verbs and nouns down, to be on the same plain as a senior in advanced Spanish. I get that. But at the same time, there are many out there who do actually grow from these perplexing issues.
At any rate, I wasn't trying to confuse or denounce demons, that has it's place. But as you can see the earth represents man, I see the serpent, satan, and the devil all are directly connected to the carnal mind of man.
Thank You for the clarification. I have had some direct experience with disembodied spirits. I have seen the experience of the man sitting at Jesus feet, whole and in his right mind, after commanding spirits to go in the name of Jesus. This does not mean I think all or even most problems have demons behind them. The key to all is enlightenment- LET THERE BE LIGHT!!! Part of the power of walking in the Spirit, as I see it, is being seated with Christ in the heavenly realms above all principality and power.
As sons, we are entitled to use the name in which our co-inheritance with Christ is authorized, and we share in that authority. Because we are sons, the Father has given us the keys to the kingdom (if as Galatains 4:1,2 says, we are mature, and not babes who are no different than slaves, kept under tutors and as yet unauthorized to walk in the inheritance).
Of course, having been a spirit-filled believer for 30 years, I have seen a multitude of false teaching and practice regarding demons, devils, the devil etc. As you stated, walking in the Spirit is the key. When the veil is removed in Christ, we are able to "see" the wiles of the enemy, who works through the carnal mind to keep us "on earth" so that he can continue to steal kill and destroy. It is the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ that is "destroying" his authority. This is occurring as the victory of Jesus Christ, who is now holding the keys to sheol and death is being "broadcast" by the sons of God.
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:14-18)
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
(2Co 4:1-7)
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
(Rev 10:1-11)
Quote from: eaglesway on April 07, 2010, 07:58:26 AM
Well Theo, I know and you know, that God is never the source of two opposing views.
Well, that depends on how you define certain aspects of God's communication to us.
"Answer not a fool according to his folly" seems to clash with "Answeer a fool according to his folly;" than theres ""Bear your own burden" compared with "Bear ye one another's burden..." As well as several others of which I am cognizant.
Of course, I am in agreement with my perception of your intent, but that doesn't mean I really agree unless I know your intent. We may be saying the same thing, we may be saying opposing things. Depends upon the perception by you of what you intend to convey, and the perception by me of what your remarks conveyed to me.
QuoteIn my journey, I have found that when it seems to be so.... the truth lies beyond the extremes, and I just keep seeking. I trust that all will eventually become clear, "That whereby when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ".
The treasure is all there in the field- we just have to keep digging for it. Sometimes we argue "heads" versus "tails" because we don't have the whole coin of the truth, "the whole counsel of God" so to speak. I certainly do not claim to have the whole counsel of God, but I believe it is available, because the scripture teaches that it is... "He will lead you into all truth"..."He will take what is mine and give it to you".....until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ"
Agreed! Amen!
Quote
There is a lot of information out there, and even as ETrs and annihilationists disagree among themselves over many things, so also believers in the salvation of all. So we all just have to sift and be sifted, together, in a spirit of fellowship and edification, because God is not the author of confusion- but neither has He given us a spirit of fear, but rather of power, love and a sound mind- so peace brother, and keep on truckin (seekin I mean :o)), John
I have learned much on this board, and I still do not find myself in agreement with the ultimate conclusion of UR. BUT, at least I no longer say "I know you are wrong." I say now, "you have given me much to consider. I will pray and study over it and accept whatever comes my way from God.
Hosea 4:12
My people collectively consult their thick cluster of vertical objects (wooden idols), and their ruling powers of authority (those who hold the diviner's wand) informs them; For a Spirit of prostitution has led them astray, And they have played the Harlot, withdrawing from the true SPIRIT.
Cross reference: The Principalities and their subordinate messengers within Princedom.
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on April 10, 2010, 05:21:09 AM
Hosea 4:12
My people collectively consult their thick cluster of vertical objects (wooden idols), and their ruling powers of authority (those who hold the diviner's wand) informs them; For a Spirit of prostitution has led them astray, And they have played the Harlot, withdrawing from the true SPIRIT.
Cross reference: The Principalities and their subordinate messengers within Princedom.
peacemaker
I never know for sure where these are directed at when there's no further explanation by the sender. How are you seeing this?
Hosea 4:12 (Amplified Bible)
12My people [habitually] ask counsel of their [senseless] wood [idols], and their staff [of wood] gives them oracles and instructs them. For the spirit of harlotry has led them astray and they have played the harlot, withdrawing themselves from subjection to their God.
If I may speak for peacemaker, darkness relies on it's own misunderstanding, drawing them away by their own enticements, to which they pay homage in allusion.
Simply put:
Man seeking man for his own council and leadership instead of the Author of Truth.
Very obvious in world leaders today.
Hmmm . . . here's the same thing in context in the Message translation . . .
11-14 "Wine and whiskey
leave my people in a stupor.
They ask questions of a dead tree,
expect answers from a sturdy walking stick.
Drunk on sex, they can't find their way home.
They've replaced their God with their genitals.
They worship on the tops of mountains,
make a picnic out of religion.
Under the oaks and elms on the hills
they stretch out and take it easy.
Before you know it, your daughters are whores
and the wives of your sons are sleeping around.
But I'm not going after your whoring daughters
or the adulterous wives of your sons.
It's the men who pick up the whores that I'm after,
the men who worship at the holy whorehouses—
a stupid people, ruined by whores!
KJV
11Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.
12My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.
13They sacrifice upon the tops of the mountains, and burn incense upon the hills, under oaks and poplars and elms, because the shadow thereof is good: therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit adultery.
14I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with whores, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.
Application . . inwardly . .
My mind sleeps with every man-made doctrine because I find comfort with them. I feel secure aligning myself with another's belief rather than experience my own with the Father personally.
As a result, I don't have true understanding of what the spirit is saying or doing. I don't hear the spirit speaking within me because I'm too busy trying to prove what he's speaking outwardly. And when trying to apply spiritual truth according to doctrines I've been whoring with, I will fail miserably every time.
Can you imagine what the Pharisees must have felt after Christ died? Before he came, everything they taught was right and solid. After he died and even removed the veil, now they had to completely reverse their entire thinking. Once we embrace the letter of the law, we make it so much harder to experience the spirit of truth.
Quote from: Nathan on April 11, 2010, 12:14:31 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on April 10, 2010, 05:21:09 AM
Hosea 4:12
My people collectively consult their thick cluster of vertical objects (wooden idols), and their ruling powers of authority (those who hold the diviner's wand) informs them; For a Spirit of prostitution has led them astray, And they have played the Harlot, withdrawing from the true SPIRIT.
Cross reference: The Principalities and their subordinate messengers within Princedom.
I never know for sure where these are directed at when there's no further explanation by the sender. How are you seeing this?
The principalities and powers – the
unholy messengers inculcated the doctrines of demons in the early views of men, falsely fostering and prospering them. Whereas, Christ denounced these doctrines (traditions) of men within the Spirit of truth, as the ego driven desires are within men; resist them.
Amen peacemaker.
In Christ we conquer.
Quandary is the enemy.
WEYMOUTH NT - REVELATION 21
21:1 And I saw a new Heaven and a new earth; for the first Heaven and the first earth were gone, and the sea no longer exists.
21:2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God and made ready like a bride attired to meet her husband.
21:3 And I heard a loud voice, which came from the throne, say, "God's dwelling place is among men and He will dwell among them and they shall be His peoples. Yes, God Himself will be among them.
21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death shall be no more; nor sorrow, nor wail of woe, nor pain; for the first things have passed away."
21:5 Then He who was seated on the throne said, "I am re-creating all things." And He added, "Write down these words, for they are trustworthy and true."
What more can be said?
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
And the four living creatures kept saying,
"Amen."
And the elders fell down and worshiped.
(Rev 5:11-14)
HalleluYAH!!!
And He who sits on the throne said,
"Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
Then He said to me,
"It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son."
(Rev 21:5-7)
Wonderful
Wonderful
Wonderful
is the Lord.
Is it not true that mother eagles force their young out of their nests when teaching them to fly?
(EW)
QuoteHe who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son."(Rev 21:5-7)
Well, at least we agree on something.
And how do we overcome? Are these 2 verses clues?
...looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our Faith..." Hebrews 12:2
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Phil. 1:6
Yes Theo, we certainly do agree on that.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8017.msg94244#msg94244 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8017.msg94244#msg94244)
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8017.msg94214#msg94214 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8017.msg94214#msg94214)
Yes, and we also overcome because it is God who is working in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure (Phil.2:13).
CHB
Absolutely!
None of these questions make the least bit of sense, absolutely none of them. The will of a King is only as pervasive across the wide expanse of His dominion as His servants have faithfulness enough to be the expressions of it. That's true whether you're considering any Chinese or Japanese Emperor that would come to mind, any of the Caesars, or any of the Kings in the Bible.