Tentmaker Forum

1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The question is why :sigh: :dontknow:, if everyone was going to be saved anyway

This is the usually ignored part of UR by most Christian Universalists, [hence my frequent bouts of deep hesitation to be called one or to be known as one believing it because we do have some that straight out blaspheme this] but there is absolutely no salvation for anyone without it.  Nothing but eternal misery without this.  This is just a very small sampling of verses on what makes salvation and ultimate restoration possible.

32Jesus, therefore, said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread out of the heaven; but my Father doth give you the true bread out of the heaven;
35And Jesus said to them, `I am the bread of the life; he who is coming unto me may not hunger, and he who is believing in me may not thirst -- at any time;
45it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me;
46not that any one hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father.
47`Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is believing in me, hath life age-during;
48I am the bread of the life;
49your fathers did eat the manna in the wilderness, and they died;
50this is the bread that out of the heaven is coming down, that any one may eat of it, and not die.
51`I am the living bread that came down out of the heaven; if any one may eat of this bread he shall live -- to the age; and the bread also that I will give is my flesh, that I will give for the life of the world.'
63the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
65and he said, `Because of this I have said to you -- No one is able to come unto me (or to this manifestation of Him), if it may not have been given him from my Father.' John 6:32, 35, 45-51, 63, 65

28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. Acts 20:28

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Romans 5:9

23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes. 1Corinthians 11:23-26

20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.  Galatians 2:20

14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.  Galatians 6:14

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace  Ephesians 1:7

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.  Ephesians 2:13

20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. Colossians 1:20

12neither through blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, did enter in once into the holy places, age-during redemption having obtained;
13for if the blood of bulls, and goats, and ashes of an heifer, sprinkling those defiled, doth sanctify to the purifying of the flesh,
14how much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the age-during Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:12-14

10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24

20And the God of the peace, who did bring up out of the dead the great shepherd of the sheep -- in the blood of an age-during covenant -- our Lord Jesus,
21make you perfect in every good work to do His will, doing in you that which is well-pleasing before Him, through Jesus Christ, to whom [is] the glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen. Hebrews 13:20-21

18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 1Peter 1:18-19

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1John 1:7

6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7For there are three that testify:
8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 1John 5:6-8

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood Revelation 1:5

9 And they sang a new song, saying:
      " You are worthy to take the scroll,
      And to open its seals;
      For You were slain,
      And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
      Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, Revelation 5:9

12 saying with a loud voice:
      " Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
      To receive power and riches and wisdom,
      And strength and honor and glory and blessing!" Revelation 5:12

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know."
So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." Revelation 7:13-17

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Revelation 12:11

Quote from: Shadow on October 09, 2008, 01:27:05 PM
1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The question is why :sigh: :dontknow:, if everyone was going to be saved anyway

Why what? Do you mean, if everyone is going to be saved anyway, why did they crucify Christ?

QuoteWhy what? Do you mean, if everyone is going to be saved anyway, why did they crucify Christ?

Yes, I thought that would have been patently obvious :mshock: :dontknow:, I wouldn't have started the thread otherwise

Thanks for your response Martin :icon_flower:

I'm so sorry people :sigh:, I don't mean to, or wish to be a burden, but I have yet to receive a full revelation of UR, that it's the truth, I can't just accept it because I want it to be true, I have to be 100% sure, and in all honesty I confess I'm not :sigh:

Quote from: Shadow on October 09, 2008, 01:27:05 PM
1Co 2:8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
The question is why :sigh: :dontknow:, if everyone was going to be saved anyway

Martin is right,  it is ignored because it depicts God doing something that can be construed as evil or at the very least questionable.


I have no problem with it personally because I perceive the understanding of us being on a journey through process,

Everything that is going on whether we like it or not at the present time has had to happen in order for the "inhabitants of the earth to learn righteousness".

It must happen simply because that is the means by which it will happen.  We must view Jesus crucifixion as a part of the whole process rather than this separate act.  Remember,  Jesus did not want it to happen.   What is misconstrued in most explanations is that Jesus was drawn to do the will of the father,  he did not willingly WANT to be crucified, he did not want this at all, even being willing to do the will of the father did not make him WANT to be crucified.

He was willing to do the will of the father.  But he could only be willing through the process of Gods love and drawing him to do so.


In other words, I guess, God set up things a certain way,  he did not set things up so that we would be saved without the crucifixion of Jesus, he set things up so that it had to happen because if it was possible to stop the crucifixion of Jesus then no one at all would be saved.

willieH: Hi Shadow... welcome to TM  :welcome:

Only GOD can reveal TRUTH to anyone dear Shadow... but I believe that you have been drawn to Tentmaker for a reason... and you are seeking for LIGHT to shine in your experience...  I also believe that you are here as part of that process...

Seeing this is your first encounter with me, might I preface that I use CAPS for emphasis in my answers... and please do not recieve them as "shouting via the use of text"...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Shadow on October 09, 2008, 01:27:05 PM
1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The question is why :sigh: :dontknow:, if everyone was going to be saved anyway

I find this question very easy to answer Shadow...  :thumbsup:

There is NO OTHER WAY that ANY man might be RECONCILED to GOD... so GOD, had to withhold CHRIST from the vision of some (those who put Him to death), in order that the sacrifice might be provided...

Against a likely barrage of distaste and disagreement, I think that JUDAS was the 2nd most important man ever to live... for had he (or another one like him) not done what he DID... then we ALL would be WITHOUT a SAVIOR... So, in his obvious indescretional act (viewed as betrayal), is in fact, ...found a MAJESTY which would upon the conclusion of ALL THINGS, ...benefit ALL MANKIND!

The fact that GOD is in the REDEEMING business, and that HE IS PERFECT, and that HIS stated WILL is that NONE should perish (2 Pet 3:9), is clearly evidence that a PERFECT result (NONE PERISHING) can be the ONLY result of HIS EFFORT to SAVE...    Otherwise, SINFUL man has overridden the PERFECT WILL of the ALMIGHTY, ...and thereby rendering Him, NOT "ALMIGHTY"...

Displaying the EFFORT He has made in processing HIS WILL, ...as LESS than PERFECT and LESS than ALMIGHTY...

When you came upon this earth (this life), ...can you name all the parameters of LIFE over which YOU had ANY "say-so" sister Shadow?

Did you pick ANY of the following:   

Parents-family-siblings-friends /
Era in which you were born /
Place [city, country] in which you were born - establishment of education and opinion such as schools - religion, etc  /
RACE - black-white-asian etc. /
Gender - male-female-confusional /
PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES - eye or hair color, height, weight tendencies / beautiful-ugly facial looks etc /
Wealth or Poverty scenario /
AMOUNT or LEVEL of natural talent or intelligence...   :dontknow:  ...much more could be named, but I hope you catch my drift...  :cloud9:

The truth is that WE had NO PART in choosing ANY of the parameters in which we live our total life... we "play the cards" we are ...DEALT (not "cards" we "choose")... and "LIVE" our lives with those "cards"...

Not only that, but here is something else to consider:  God didn't give us our LIFE and then wait for us to ACCEPT that "GIFT", in order to START LIVING here on Earth, did He?   :mshock:  Did He wait for us to "decide" to LIVE?

Did you have to ACCEPT LIFE before beginning to LIVE here on earth?

What makes anyone think that a limited and FINITE existence (this life) is enacted COMPLETELY WITHOUT our consent, ...but our ETERNAL existence is "TOTALLY"... "up to us"?   Without ever being "shown" those choices?   WHO do you know, that has ever been shown those "choices" dear Shadow?

Do you know of anyone to whom GOD displayed the "choices"?  Where He said and DISPLAYED:  "Here is HELL, and Here is HEAVEN, ...now "choose" which of the two you wish to spend ETERNITY in..." :dunno:

No... not ONE soul has ever seen HEAVEN (other than via vision and even then just a few LIMITED and PURPOSED visions have been allowed)... nor has anyone ever seen "HELL"... 

The proposals of religion are for the most part, ridiculous... yet they remain completely ACCEPTED and are INGRAINED in the masses, and this shall remain so, until the end...

It is in the PURPOSE and DETERMINATION of GOD, ...for FEW in this lifetime, to see the TRUTH of the GOSPEL which is GOOD NEWS ONLY... (look up the 2 Greek words Euaggelizo and Euaggelion which are translated GOSPEL in the NT, and read their definitions which do NOT contain any BAD elements or connotations)

And that MOST which believe in CHRIST, shall preach a combination of BAD/FEARFUL NEWS and GOOD NEWS...

This results in MOST of those who "hear", ... do NOT "hear" the message of "GOOD"... in its PERFECT state... which includes ALL...

This example is seen in CHRIST and the 12... a paltry number bearing truth in the face of MYRIADS of humans which promptly SCORNED that "Good News"... 

The Apostles were ridiculed and put into prisons and later, met awful deaths for bearing the "Good News"... What has changed?  In some places on earth, one may be KILLED or IMPRISONED for belief in CHRIST...

JESUS stated... "when the Son of man cometh, shall He find FAITH on the Earth"?  Yet we see "Christianity" as 2 BILLION STRONG (1/3 of the Earths population), and GROWING faster than any other RELIGION...  :mshock:

Christianity, amidst its traditions (as her sister before her the Jews) continues this behavior against those who bear a GOSPEL that say that  GOD ...MEANT... what He SAID when HE SAID in His WORD:  ..."GOD SO LOVED the WORLD...

I wish you the blessing of the Father YHVH, that you might gain the vision of the GOSPEL which entails GOD being a WINNER of ALL in the effort of SALVATION!

Because He said that He, ..."SO LOVED the WORLD", and the TRUTH concerning HIS LOVE, is dear sister Shadow, ...that HE NEVER CHANGES (Mal 3:6)

Quote from: Shadow on October 09, 2008, 06:02:15 PM
I'm so sorry people :sigh:, I don't mean to, or wish to be a burden, but I have yet to receive a full revelation of UR, that it's the truth, I can't just accept it because I want it to be true, I have to be 100% sure, and in all honesty I confess I'm not :sigh:

You weren't a burden with your question.  I was simply pointing out where a lot of today's UR teaching falls short.  Some of the older books from previous centuries are clearer, but they're not always the easiest to get your hands on.  I was teaching UR for a couple of years before I was totally able to rest in it being the truth.  I'd had a revelation of it, or I wouldn't have done such a 180 about some things, but it was a process for me of both renewing my mind with the Word and having additional revelations of it.  For me, personally, that wound up being through many of the older books by authors like Elhanan Winchester, Charles Chauncy, Andrew Jukes, Joseph Huntington, Paul Dean, John Murray, and then with the books obviously a whole lot of hours in better translations of the New Testament like the Concordant Literal and Scarlett's. 

My reasoning on going to many of the authors from previous centuries is the over-romanticization that many Christians have for the Puritan era and the Founding era of the U.S. where people supposedly worked 12hrs a day, 6 days a week while reading their Bibles about 8hrs a day, every single day, or something to that effect that many, many of the leading fundamentalists had always given me the impression was the lifestyle back then.  So, I rightly figured that the era that scrutinized the Word the most, when all of the big universities and seminaries were being founded, was more likely to have the more interesting books by any UR authors that those times produced. 

Thankfully, as WhiteWings pointed out on another thread, many of these books are available through google books.  Elhanan Winchester's book "The Universal Restoration" is available there, and they usually have copies available at http://www.abebooks.com (http://www.abebooks.com)  God uses other roads with other people and I'm not saying that the way that I got this message under my belt is either the best way or the only way.  (Now the way that I did it to get past every conceivable question against it is probably the best way for anyone feeling a call to any type of Bible teaching ministry.  Why reinvent the wheel and take 20 years to learn what you can learn in a year and a half from a stack of books you're scrutinizing page by page with your Bible, right?) 

For some people, it'll be a particular Scripture that the Holy Spirit drives deeply inside of them to where they know that they know based off of that one verse and the more they meditate on it, then other Scriptures start occuring to them, like John 17 where Jesus prayed that with the oneness of believers that the world would know that He was sent of God, that He's given us the glory, and that the Father has loved absolutely all of the world as much as He loves Jesus.  I really wish someone would get someone with a pleasant voice to record many of these older books either onto a collection of CDs or onto a couple of MP3s and then wouldn't charge an arm and a leg for them.  I'm one of the ones that wouldn't have made a big deal out of this message if I had any lingering questions about/against it; if 98% of the Bible seemed to teach it, but I didn't know what to do with 2%. 

All of my questions have been fully answered to my satisfaction, although I'm not saying by that that the answers that have satisfied me would necessarily thoroughly satisfy anyone else.  I pray that God brings you to the same place of rest in this message.  As the Church was wrong about Indulgences 5 centuries ago and back, the Church has continued in an error about the ultimate fate of the wicked.  The Church taught cessationism regarding the manifestations of the Holy Spirit since at least Clement of Alexandria's time, but over the last 125 years or so there's been a growing segment of the Church that's been opening the doors to the Holy Spirit again and many lives have been saved from a lot of afflictions and much glory has been brought to Jesus Christ as a result. 

Have there been abuses regarding that, justification by grace through faith, and a hundred other truths that have been reintroduced to the Church?  Of course!  Human beings are involved, and sometimes when lives aren't fully submitted to His Lordship then they hear what they want to hear and do what they want to do, or they do what they want to do when they're trying to fill in the gaps in their understanding, and consequently everybody that stands behind this or that winds up sharing in the egg on the face when things start looking foolish.  As there's been a clumsy stage with every other truth that the Lord's been reintroducing to the Church that it lost in the dark ages, we're in the clumsy stage when it comes to UR. 

Not everyone is able to connect all of the dots yet and there's been so much preaching of contrary view points that it sounds wrong at first although it's the 100% truth.  There isn't a single truth that was reintroduced over the last 500 years that hasn't sounded 100% wrong to it's earliest preachers/teachers, although they knew they had chapter and verse.  It just takes time, not just for individuals, but for truths to get past the stage where they endanger their adherents with being tarred and feathered.  But with the internet, some growing media interest in UR, and various other factors, including a genuine growing hunger on the part of believers to see the finished work of Christ in it's fullness, I don't think it'll be another 20 years before this message can be more mainstream without fear of getting clobbered for it -- by either well meaning Christians or by God Himself.  I think it was George MacDonald that said something to the effect of, that if UR weren't the truth, he couldn't see how God would be offended by people thinking He was better than He was.

Quote from: Shadow on October 09, 2008, 06:02:15 PM

QuoteWhy what? Do you mean, if everyone is going to be saved anyway, why did they crucify Christ?

Yes, I thought that would have been patently obvious :mshock: :dontknow:, I wouldn't have started the thread otherwise

Thanks for your response Martin :icon_flower:

I'm so sorry people :sigh:, I don't mean to, or wish to be a burden, but I have yet to receive a full revelation of UR, that it's the truth, I can't just accept it because I want it to be true, I have to be 100% sure, and in all honesty I confess I'm not :sigh:

Oh, well, then, that is easy to answer.
If everyone is going to be saved Christ had to be crucified! Otherwise no one could be saved.

When Adam sinned, Adam began the dying process and due to that process all mankind sin (Romans 5:12). What is the answer to that? How did God undo what Adam did? Paul answers this in Romans 5:18,19. All mankind get what they get due to what Adam did. And since fair is fair, God gives to humanity what they will get due to what Christ did in His obedience to the cross.

Do you understand? It is really simple.

Thanks so much for your responses WillieH and Martin :HeartThrob: :girlheart:

Dear Shadow,
Thanks for sharing. I am curious if you might have other scriptures you'd like to share which are keeping you from believing God will save all?

Quote from: Shadow on October 09, 2008, 01:27:05 PM
1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The question is why :sigh: :dontknow:, if everyone was going to be saved anyway

Am I the only one that thought that perhaps these 'princes' were the evil spirits behind these men of power and that they did not know the death of Christ would have resulted in the salvation of all of Mankind? They thought killing Christ would have killed the savior and his efforts.  If they had know that Christ would have brought salvation into the world, they would not have killed him.  Perhaps it could be a far fetched reading of it, especially considering that these men were potentially the ones hesitent about killing Jesus in the first place (Pilate).