Misogyny in the old testament.

[Redlettervoice]

And when His disciples, James and John saw this, they said, "Lord do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?"

But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them. LK 9:54

Human history is filled with man [nations]... believing and declaring that their God has told them to kill other men and to destroy other nations.

I have personally met the Son of Man..Jesus Christ. "He said that He did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them" AND... that if you have seen me...then you have seen the Father. My Religion told me all about the god who instructs men to kill and to destroy other mens lives...but...I have never met him.

Was it not a part of Jesus mission here on Earth, to reveal to men what God the Father is really like?

Dean

This is an "excellent" post, in my opinion. Yes, that "is" what part of Jesus mission
was..............to reveal to men what God the Father was "really" like!  I can  tell you, I sure
believe THAT.

And did you notice, brother, that the false prophet over in the book of Revelation was able
to call down "fire" in the sight of men, .....and deceive them?

What do you think is the "difference" in what the "false prophet" did and in what
the diciples were told? that they didn't know what "spirit" they were of?

And the thing that makes me scratch "my" head is that it was said to be "as Elijah did?"

Jack, don't flip, we are just talking. ha

Maybe it's part of that stuff Jesus said "you can't bear now." ???


That leaves ONE true Prophet! HIM!

Where's Cardinal? Speak up on this, girl...........help me here. When Elijah "ascended" he
went into a "higher realm" didn't he? Those others said, "Where did he go? He's so out of
sight!" Yep!'

Christ IN you, one realm.
YOU in Christ, higher realm.

No fire in the City!
Truth is ETERNAL!
Mixture of law of sin and death and law of Spirit of LIFE is "used" by God til there
is nothing but the LAW of the Spirit, sounds to me like anyway,.

[SLN]

I don't. After all, He "ordered" the flood......

When we look at Genesis 6:5 though, we see that:

 5And Jehovah seeth that abundant [is] the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil all the day;

They were only evil with no good in them. That at least takes away the slaying of innocent (or as innocent as one can expect from a human being anyway) ones by the hand of God.

If God is fine with just slaying everyone though, I don't understand why he would create Satan. He would have no purpose. God could have just punished Job personally to test his faith. It doesn't seem to make sense.

In that same way absolute sovereignity doesn't make sense to me, because it would mean he is in control of everything, every second. That would mean people were made rapists by God, for a purpose then, so that they and their victims would learn something maybe... but if he can just control exactly what everyone thinks or does, why not just make everyone saints? Problem solved.

I just want to note I'm not presenting anything as an absolute truth; I'm mostly just thinking outloud. So please don't think I'm trying to ruffle feathers or tell everyone how it is, my intent is actually to make sense of it for myself and others. So I don't mean to rebuke you, Cardinal (or any others). I actually very much appreciate your views. Keep them coming! 

[Hennessey]

why not just make everyone saints?

SLN this is why it is called the "mystery of iniquity" lol

Jack, don't flip, we are just talking. ha

No comprende Rojo 

I keep thinking that Solomon had something right when he said the "day of our death is better than our the day of our birth." I have seen this best of this life and end of my children and I would concur with Sol. I don't get too excited about justifying God's actions in the OT or NT. I just know flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom.

Be blessed,

Jack 

[Cardinal]

   Yeah, I know that absolute sovereign thing is a hard pill to swallow, isn't it? Don't worry about my feather's being ruffled, I'm fine, but thanks for caring.

I haven't shared this in detail in awhile and I don't expect anyone to jump on the absolute sovereign bandwagon with me on the basis of this or anything else I share. All has to be quickened by the HS, to all, just like any other revelation of His character and nature, and Word.

This is not what led me to this conclusion, but rather was a confirmation of what He had already shown me. I was asleep, and then suddenly awake in the Spirit, caught up to the stars all around me, unaware of my body or any body. What I saw were orbs of light, transparent yet with faces on them, coming down thru the heavens, souls coming to inhabit bodies. I had NO opinion on this aspect of it whatsoever, as I try hard not to have any opinions on anything so that God will give me HIS. It seems to work for us, LOL.

Anyway, I could by the Spirit, hear their thoughts or hearts, however you want to say it, and they were definitely communicating with one another as they descended. They were full of joy and I felt a surge of joy as I experienced this. I heard them discussing their lives ahead of them, what they were going to be to one another in the natural realm, who was going to be "mean" in some way to the other, what their relationship was going to be to each other, and their awareness of how it was ALL for them to experience and have His unconditional love and forgiveness worked into them.

I woke up sobbing and praising God for allowing me to perceive this. I had a similar in content dream also. I was in a room with chairs on both sides of an aisle. I kept walking from the front to the back room, where I had prayed with some people, and was looking out a window in the front each time, expecting something.

The third time I did this walk down the aisle, I noticed the people for the first time. They were all people I knew or were related to. Some of them had done really terrible things to me in the natural. What astonished me, was that just like in the above dream/vision, I could thru the Spirit hear the real motive of their hearts (which is Christ at the core), and with a shock I realized that NONE of them were against me in any way, in fact, just the opposite. They were smiling, and had been cheering me on, aware of the fact that I was the one chosen in my bloodline to overcome as a son of God. Just then the Lord spoke 2 things to me. One was, "Cast not away your confidence." The other was in Jeremiah, and led me into a teaching that connected the two.

I continued to walk to the window and saw what I had apparently been waiting for. It was a huge mound of loaves of bread brought in on a type of wagon, but there were no horses pulling it. The Spirit had brought it. End of dream. So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it  Blessings to you.......

[Kept]

Well I guess Im just gonna have to get out my ot and start reading again lol

I have really enjoyed everyones thoughts.

The jury is still out for me

kept

[Hennessey]

So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it   

Oh I'll tell ya Card you slay me. That last line got me laughing so hard.

In a serious mode that is an awesome vision Card and I may not have had one like it but it so bear witness with my spirit. Thank you.

Reminded me of that saying that says we will learn to kiss the hands of those that nail us to the cross. Whenever I contemplate this subject I almost always think the "last shall be first and the first last." Did I say I believe in equity in God, when it is all said and done

These are hard things to wrestle with for sure.

Jack

[Cardinal]

"but if he can just control exactly what everyone thinks or does, why not just make everyone saints? Problem solved."

  Actually, I asked Him basically the same question. It was years before I got the answer. We were one with Him from the foundation of the world. We were lowered into the bondage of corruption, NOT WILLINGLY, but He subjected the same in hope. Christ in us, is the hope of glory. He subjected us so that we would eventually WILLINGLY lay down our lives for Him.

Coming here was a sort of death; corruption is death. This life we live now apart from Christ but only in our minds, is a type of death while still in the body. We were given a spirit of forgetfulness so that we couldn't remember our former estate. No greater love has any man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend.

That is the God kind of love, He wanted a creature that would love Him enough to be with Him by choice, not by design, no matter what He does, UNCONDITIONALLY, the same way He loves us.

This is the short version, LOL......blessings to you....

[Kratos]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I still believe that our problems with what God did to people in the OT and still does today is only judged as cruel or unfeeling or harsh in terms of the carnal mind. If you continue to see this life of 70 years as the important thing and a thing to be preserved, you cannot but help come to that conclusion.

There is a place that I can remember in the Bible (I think Job) that says something to the effect that we humans have it all wrong. We rejoice when a baby is born and we weep when a person dies. But, if we truly understood the way of things, we would weep when a baby is born into this life of pain and sorrow and we would rejoice when a person is finally released back to the real life realm. (sorry for the paraphrase, but I cannot remember enough words to find it).

Anyway, the truth remains that God, from His perspective, thinks little of relieving a person from the bondage of their earthly existence to aid in the passing into the Heavenly existence for us all. This is why it was not unjust for God to allow what appears to be cruel ends to some from this life to teach us spiritual truths. It is because our lives here and all of those who lived in the OT are a mere vapor in terms of our whole existence. That which is seen (our natural lives) are temporary and our unseen lives (in the spirit) are eternal. Unless we see it from this perspective, we are seeing it all wrong. The carnal mind will never be subject to the law of God because it only looks at things through the seen world of our earthly existence. This is wrong and upside down from the truth.

Now, that is my story and I am also sticking to it. LOL

John

[Cardinal]

  Jack, glad I could give you a chuckle........I know many a night I spent on here cracking up at your sense of humor when that was usually the only thing in my life at the time that could make me laugh........God knows what we need when we need it, Amen?

And John, that was a good one, too, LOL........we're all just cracked pots for the Lord, aren't we? Well, I consider myself in excellent company......

[Dean]

I do not call what the OT sometimes says that God did to the humans He created...cruel.

I call it the beast, that is within man... that EXCUSES his own inhuman treatment of other humans... by blaming the God and Father of Jesus Christ... for it.

This picture of an angry and vengeful like god, that Religion paints... IS NOT... the God and Father of Jesus Christ. God has LOVED... beyond our understanding and comprehension, everyone of His children...none of them created for the purpose that they be treated in inhuman ways, so as to teach US...spiritual truths. This is loony tunes. Which parent here is going to sacrifice..kill...rape... one of their own children so that their other children can learn...spiritual truths.

I do not care for Religion... christian jewish islam...or whatever. My UR experience was but a step out of the dehumanizing sickness that Religion is. AND for me...if IT dehumanizes God's GREATEST creation...human beings...then it is Religion, false and in opposition to the Son of Man, Jesus Christ....

I fell in love with a person...Jesus Christ and I became a slave to the book of my religion's teachers. NOT the same thing..at all.

Dean

[reFORMer]

Dean,

From the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you repudiate the evil from your God knowledge.  How about the good?  Would you walk into incorruptible immortality in the next half an hour if you knew how?  So, why don't you know how?  Jesus has opened the door and no man can shut it.  Others have entered into things pertaining to it and God is no repector of persons.

Actually that is the point.  God is no respector of persons.  I can't at this moment, but in sample experiences, obtain the body of resurrected glory.  I can't accuse God of unfairness.  I just don't qualify.

That is no different than qualifying to be slain by Him who both wounds and heals, kills and makes alive.  Each of us walks around with a glory cloud by our head that we can reach up into and a sucking whirlpool at our feet that we can with one step fall into destruction.  Don't imagine you can keep an insipid balance.  God gives spirit things that push us farther than our own self control would let us go.

---James     (Whoopee!  Here I go...)

[Dean]

Jack,

Thank you for your post and I appreciate your kind and gentle spirit...

For me, right now...my being honest about this issue...matters.

James,

I have heard you speak on this board before...while using a language, that for me... I  understood.

However, in your last post to me...I admit, that I do not know the language you are using... I do not understand it... or the post you used it in.

Dean

 

[Hennessey]

Dean I know your heart and your honesty of search. God desires mercy and not sacrifice and I won't sacrifice our friendship when at this time we may see some things differently. I read some of Cindi's blog the other day and read where she wrestles with this subject and sees it differently than I. I saw a wonderful anointing on her words as they spoke of honesty of heart ......... sometimes it is not which side of the issue we are on but how we pursue Christ within the issue.

Be blessed brother and know I appreciate your merciful heart.

Jack

[Cardinal]

  Well, He said that everything they went thru was for our example. I don't see Him as angry and vengeful at all. I see Him as loving, no matter what. So I guess the bottom line is; is man more righteous than God? Blessings to all......

[Loveroftruth]

I do not call what the OT sometimes says that God did to the humans He created...cruel.

I call it the beast, that is within man... that EXCUSES his own inhuman treatment of other humans... by blaming the God and Father of Jesus Christ... for it.

This picture of an angry and vengeful like god, that Religion paints... IS NOT... the God and Father of Jesus Christ. God has LOVED... beyond our understanding and comprehension, everyone of His children...none of them created for the purpose that they be treated in inhuman ways, so as to teach US...spiritual truths. This is loony tunes. Which parent here is going to sacrifice..kill...rape... one of their own children so that their other children can learn...spiritual truths.

I do not care for Religion... christian jewish islam...or whatever. My UR experience was but a step out of the dehumanizing sickness that Religion is. AND for me...if IT dehumanizes God's GREATEST creation...human beings...then it is Religion, false and in opposition to the Son of Man, Jesus Christ....

I fell in love with a person...Jesus Christ and I became a slave to the book of my religion's teachers. NOT the same thing..at all.

Dean

  Very well said Dean. Religion does a good job at convincing and brainwashing people. Its like the trinity doctrine..... when one questions it others quickly have the answer they where taught and convinced to believe and then the simple answer to you is.........."its just a mystery"
This is why we must really know why and where we got our beliefs from.... man or God

I have a friend who was driving, looking at a map instead of the road, hit and killed a mother and child...... she tells the story that God has done this so she would be changed... So God killed a mother and daughter, taking them away from the family and all loved ones because His desire was more for my friend

I am sorry, I don't enjoy the sovereign topic and dont want to bring it there. 

[Loveroftruth]

Well, He said that everything they went thru was for our example.

Did God say it 


Could it be as simple as me saying to my son "Matthew, you can really learn from the past and all your mistakes"  BUT would that mean that I would have wanted all those bad things to happen

[Loveroftruth]

God is no respector of persons.

I once heard someone break down this scripture and what it really means is that God is no respecter of "MASKS" meaning, the masks we wear.

[Loveroftruth]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I still believe that our problems with what God did to people in the OT and still does today is only judged as cruel or unfeeling or harsh in terms of the carnal mind. If you continue to see this life of 70 years as the important thing and a thing to be preserved, you cannot but help come to that conclusion.

Ok, so I am a bit feisty today

So if your life right now became a living hell because God decided to use you as an example and he ordered your family to be killed and your wife raped and had your children sacrificed
would you still feel God as your loving Father? The one that if you ask for bread would not give you a stone or snake The one that would never leave nor forsake you The one that cloths and feeds the lilies of the valley?  The one who is called AGAPE

FAITH comes by KNOWING HIM, HIM being a ROCK and STRONG tower to stand on, HIM being UNCHANGING and the ONLY THING that STAYS......... you take that away and you have one really really shaky walk with God and a God I just dont know

YES, there are things in my life that dont look great but I know they are God... but there is a big difference of what God throws at as to change and refine us then what the OT is showing God as.

[rosered]

 

   thanks be to God , i cannot  begin to  tell  you how much said in this thread   as blessed me :)  God love you all ..........
  Lovetruth , i also read your last post here  and  was thinking   that  this woman , was  reading the  map went off the  road and killed two innocent  ones ?
  to me the lesson was ,  her trying to  find and please God , was looking in the wrong place ! focusing on the map and NOT  the road
 
  the allegory being  focusing [guiding ]on the written word[ easily  misinterpeted  by the  wrong mind ] and NOT THE LIVING WORD [HOLY SPIRIT& mind of Christ]]  maybe ?
 love in Him.. .rose
   

[Loveroftruth]

   thanks be to God , i cannot  begin to  tell  you how much said in this thread   as blessed me :)  God love you all ..........
  Lovetruth , i also read your last post here  and  was thinking   that  this woman , was  reading the  map went off the  road and killed two innocent  ones ?
  to me the lesson was ,  her trying to  find and please God , was looking in the wrong place ! focusing on the map and NOT  the road
 
  the allegory being  focusing [guiding ]on the written word[ easily  misinterpeted  by the  wrong mind ] and NOT THE LIVING WORD [HOLY SPIRIT& mind of Christ]]  maybe ?
 love in Him.. .rose
   

Hi Rosered, 

So would we say that God killed those two innocent people so he could give my friend a spiritual insight? or Prophetic word ?

[Hennessey]

LT this is a message I have shared often and it brings it home for me.

                         

Agape Love

       The little group stopped along the highway and looked in silent horror, some queasy with disgust, others growing fierce with rage. A short distance off the road, at the top of a gentle rise, a man had been viciously attacked. The grizzly scene glinted red with blood where the hapless victim had been mortally wounded and left to die. It appeared there was nothing more to be done, as already a small crowd had assembled at the site, presumably to administer first aid.

       The travelers stood entranced, caught in the despair of senseless waste. This is the work of Satan, the businessman finally thought aloud.

       No, this evil comes from wicked men, the housewife responded, her eyes transfixed on the scene.

       You don't know that, interjected her girlfriend excitedly. This could be the work of God. It could be that the victim was wicked and this was God's righteous judgment.

       Another stepped in to calm them, But then again if God caused this, maybe he meant it for some higher purpose, unknown to us. He might even somehow use this terrible act for his glory! he offered hopefully.

       Are you crazy? retorted the preacher. We worship a God of love! Our God would never allow this! he stormed, eyes flaring with anger.

       The little group buzzed with concurrence, then slowly turned back to the road and resumed their journey, affirming their denunciation of the crime as they continued on their way. All of them oblivious to the Roman soldiers who were gambling for a cloak.

                         

******************

       Love is the most misunderstood word in existence. To many it means little more than a physical craving. To others it is an intense emotional dependency.

       To some people love is a character trait of God, which is manifest in peace, success, and happiness. It is that special blessing of God that meets their needs and fulfills their wants. Because God loves them, he gives them all the good things of earth to enjoy. To them, anyone who is smiling, or lounging in earthly wealth, is obviously centered in the love of God. For these people, God's love creates a fondness for the things of earth and a coddling affection for all its creatures, in a soupy, mind-numbing bliss.

       But to a few of earth's voyagers, love is something entirely different, something not of this world. It is a wisdom that energizes every action in the universe, whether it appears as good or evil.

       If you had stopped along the road and witnessed the crucifixion of Jesus, would you have recognized it as the supreme love of God? How is the love of God displayed in his slanderous betrayal and murder? Would this be the love of God if it happened to you? (Russell)

[Taffy]

Jack
Blessings
Taffy

[AbbasChild]

Jack, all I can say is 
So many things in life are a mystery to me but it is good to know that "Unfailing Love is the ultimate reality behind all other realities" ('An Invitation To Friendship' by Charles Slagle).

[97531]

I have not been participating on this thread but want you to consider this

Insurance, warranties et al. usually have an act of God and in SA acts of Terrorism as exclusions.  Amazing that Terrorism and Acts of God are equal.

Acts of God

Earthquakes
Tornadoes
Hurricanes or Cyclones
Lightning

Strange that that which cannot be predicted statistically is blamed on God.  Why not nature?

Seems to me if there was a flood, even back then it was an Act of God.  It could have been a comet hitting the ocean causing a catastrophic Tsunami.

So I guess it is all God's fault as He created everything?

How much culture was mixed in with Truth in the OT?  It says there is nothing new under the sun so by that one should assume that as in today's Church mindset of a vengeful wrathful God, back then it was easy to write off the inexplicable to God.

Who knows how much poetic licence was taken when the Hebrews were barbaric to justify it by "God told me/us so?"

We need only look at the history of the church in the last century and how things have gotten twisted to see this is an inherent trait of man to use fear as a governing tactic.  Look at your own President. (USA Only)

The doctrine of madness established by the Greco/Roman pagans fits so nicely into today's justification of evil.

Religion = Bondage
Government = Control

Jesus = Liberty

Personally I do not believe half the atrocities committed in the OT were sanctioned by God, it breaks His fundamental law

Thou shalt not kill.

We all use that to validate UR as God cannot break one of His own laws.

If you read, through the OT there is a governing theme of God allowing Israel to nearly be destroyed barring a remnant.  Think about it.  They, the chosen, how different were they than today's Phrozen Chosen?

Can you not see the parallels that exist?

No, God is not a meanie, He is Love personified, gender non-specific.

To me Man is the problem.  Look at how the woman were not allowed to wear makeup, had to wear certain clothes so that men would not lust after them?  How different is that to the MBO's of the Muslim world (MBO = Moving Black Objects).

Man is born with the instinct to procreate, the smallest thing can arouse him.  So to help man with this "problem" the object of his arousal needs to be diminished or dressed down to be less appealing.

Thank God we are waking up and realising we are but natural.  Yes Jesus spoke about adultery in the mind too.

Look at the woman caught in adultery, we know Jesus forgave her but hello! it takes two to tango, how come the man was not brought to be stoned too?

It sickens me when man debases a woman to a mere sex object.  We look at the OT dudes and their harems of concubines even the famous king David, do you think God approved of this?

There are pearls in the OT but you have to dig for them.  Layer one sucks in most cases but there are deeper hidden meanings we can learn.

Oh well that's me done ranting  

Blessings 

[SLN]

Nice post, Seeker.

I guess when not accepting absolute sovereignity, nature taking it's own course does seem to make sense.

That would however mean the OT was completely wrong and it was only an assumption that God was the one responsible for the flood. Which would then make you wonder about what else in the OT was just plain made up by these guys. One could even argue that Satan told them God did it, but I would have nothing to back that one up. 

It would explain why it's not in tune with the NT which obviously is the Word of God (this notion seems to be undisputed anyway). 


One more quick note on God being absolutely sovereign: It would mean he made people do stuff so he could then be pe'ed off at them.