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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2011, 12:36:33 AM »
One of the first extra-Biblical places we see the idea of God having a son is in the Targums. The Targums were the Hebrew Scriptures loosely translated into Aramaic. Aramaic was the common language of the Jews both before and after Christ.
That's disputed. It was 'commonly' accepted Hebrew was no longer used (by the public) during the time of Jesus. But that doesn't seem to be corrrect.


 
Quote
Hebrew was the temple language. Most of the people did not speak Hebrew as a language of communication. And so in the synagogues the Scriptures would be read in Hebrew and then in Aramaic.
Jews spoke Hebrew among eachother and Aramaic to foreigners.
 
 

This is not to say that Aramaic was not spoken. The amount of evidence is irrefutable that Aramaic was one of the languages of his day. However, the historical and biblical evidence attests to the fact that he was speaking Hebrew. Again, this is important since to say otherwise does not accurately represent Jesus. Also, recognizing his language as Hebrew demonstrates the reliability of the Bible as the Word of God, and provides a continuum of teaching from the Old Testament up to and through the life and ministry of the Messiah.
........ the Dead Sea Scrolls contain more than 800 documents and fragments, most of which were in Hebrew, some in Aramaic and almost none in Greek.
......... Letters of correspondence between Bar Kochba (132-135AD) and his soldiers were discovered in 1951 near the Dead Sea. They are a significant finding since they were written in Hebrew as well as Aramaic and Greek. There are certain colloquialisms found in them leading to the conclusion that Hebrew was not a dead language nor was it a language reserved only for the synagogues.
......... Paul stood on the stairs and motioned with his hand to the people. And when there was a great silence, he spoke to them in the Hebrew languageActs 21:40). Again, the word Hebrew is the Greek word Hebraidi. The sign on the cross of Jesus was written in three languages, Hebrew (
Hebraisti), the language of the land, Latin, the language of Rome and her officials, and Greek, the international trade language (like English today).
..........
Eloi, Eloi Lama Sabachthani
Mark 15:34 records some of the last words of Jesus as he was on the cross. They have been used to support the claim that Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Hebrew. Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?These words closely parallel the words in Psalm 22:1 in both the original Hebrew and in the Aramaic Targumim, though His words, as recorded in Mark 15:34 match neither exactly. Many scholars have glossed over this utterance as Aramaic without even really taking the time to see if it indeed is.
The table below lists JesusPsalm 22:1 in the Hebrew original, the Targum (Aramaic) and then the Christian Syriac version (Syriac and Aramaic are basically the same). Notice that none of the aforementioned texts is exactly the same. MatthewEli Eli, lama but then differs with sabachthani. The Targum of Ps 22:1 has shabachtani like in Mark and Matthew but then differs on the following: Eli Elahi instead of Eli Eli, and metul ma instead of lama. While these are similar in meaning, it must be conceded that they are significantly different to merit investigation. The Syriac version is the closest but again, it is not an exact match since lama is written lamna. It must not be overlooked, however, that the Syriac version was written as a translation to the New Testament and thus cannot be used conclusively to prove one way or the other the exact words of Jesus. The rest of the table lists the different ways of saying God in Hebrew and Aramaic (Syriac).
Table 3 Eloi, Eloi Lama Sabaktani
Mark 15:34[/t][/t][/t][/t][/t][/t]

Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani
Matthew 27:46

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani
Psalm 22:1 Hebrew (original)

Eli eli lama azavtani
Psalm 22:1 Aramaic (Targum Psalms)

Eli elahi metul ma shabaktani
Syriac (Aramaic) Mark 15:34

Elahi elahi, lamna shabaktani
Syriac (Aramaic) Matthew 27:46

Eli eli, lamna shabaktani
Hebrew God

Elohim / Eloah / El
Aramaic God

Elah / El
Hebrew/Aramaic My God

Eli
Hebrew (only) My God

elohai
Aramaic (only) My God

Elahi
Septuagint Judges 5:5 my God

Eloi
 
Eloi
We have some interesting evidence in the New Testament given that the original words of Jesus have been recorded by two of his disciples – Matthew and Mark (according to early church tradition, Mark received his Gospel from the testimony of Peter). It is interesting to note that Matthew's version is slightly different from Mark's. Matthew records, in 27:46 that Jesus said Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? (resembling Psalm 22:1 in Hebrew eli, eli lama azavtani) while Mark's account says Eloi Eloi. I believe that we can safely assume that Jesus did not say it one way for Matthew and another for the writer of Mark while on the cross. Matthew's version – Eli Eli is what we would expect in Hebrew or even in Aramaic. Eloi, however, is a mystery. Which way he said it has to do with the issue of transliteration and will be answered in the course of our search.
We know what Eloi means, due to the convenient translation in the text, that is my God. The question of course, is whether it is Hebrew or Aramaic. The truth is, as such, it is neither Hebrew nor Aramaic. While it is close to the Hebrew form of אלהים elohim, it falls short. Its form is not found even once in the Hebrew Bible and since elohim is such a common word, not finding it there forces us to conclude that it is not Hebrew. However, it is not Aramaic either. If Eloi were Aramaic, as is assumed, then why don't we see at least one example of its use in the OT since in both Daniel 4:5, and 6:22, which were plainly written in Aramaic, the words "my God" are not Eloi but אלהי elahi. The form spoken by Jesus as recorded in Mark is conspicuously absent! Furthermore, the Targumim translate my God as elahi just as the Aramaic does from the time of Daniel. Targum Psalm 22:1, has אלי  אלהי eli elahi (Targum Psalms). Moreover, the Syriac (Aramaic) version of the New Testament (written about 200 AD) actually translates the Greek text of Mark 15:34 (my God) ὁ Θεός μου (ho Theos mou) as elahi and not Eloi! Apparently the Aramaic speakers didn't consider it to be Aramaic either since they wrote
Elahi. Considering that this text was written after the time of Jesus just further serves to demonstrate that Eloi is not Aramaic.
If Eloi is neither Hebrew nor Aramaic, then what is it? There are three ways to say God in Hebrew:אלהים  Elohim (2605 times) only in Hebrew, used most often to refer to the God of Israel, אל El (242 times), both Hebrew and Aramaic, more often used of foreign gods, though nevertheless, used in reference to the true God of Israel, and אלוה Eloah (56 times) used only in Hebrew texts (primarily in Job). All of them have a general meaning of mighty one – really just a title, which can theoretically, be applied to any one who "is mighty".[1] Elohim, unlike el and Eloah, is the plural form meaning gods. Whenever used of the one true God of Israel, however, the verb related to it is always singular.[2] To say my God with el simply requires that one add the letter yud to the end of the word. Thus, El becomes Eli. To add my to plural masculine nouns like Elohim, however, basically requires adding the vowel a and dropping the mem (mem makes a masculine noun plural). Elohim therefore, becomes Elohai. To make the first person possessive of Eloah is similar, though, unfortunately, the first person singular my is not found in the pages of the Bible. There is, however, one passage in Hab 1:11 which does have the possessive pronoun suffix his אלהו – Eloho. Thus, according to the conventions of Hebrew grammar, the way to say my God would be Elohi. (Gallagher, personal correspondence) Aramaic has two ways to say God, El, which is exactly the same as the Hebrew counterpart and the other way is אלה Elah. To say my God is Eli and Elahi similar to the Hebrew forms.
Thus in either Hebrew or Aramaic, we should see one of four forms: Elohai or Elohi (only Hebrew), Eli (both Hebrew and Aramaic) or Elahi (only Aramaic). There are no other possibilities and Eloi is simply not one of the options. In order to discover which language Jesus spoke, we will limit our discussion to Mark's Eloi since Eli could be either Hebrew or Aramaic. We will essentially address two questions:
What happened to the letter he in the middle of the word (equivalent to the letter H)?
Are there any occurrences of Eloi in the Septuagint?
Without Eli we have limited our focus to three candidates for the mysterious Eloi, the two Hebrew words Elohai, Elohi and the Aramaic Elahi. We don't have the actual Hebrew or Aramaic word written in the Hebrew/Aramaic[3] script but the Greek transliteration, which can sometimes be tricky. Some languages don't have the rough breathing sound that the letter H makes. English, for example, can make the sound at the beginning and middle of words but not at the end (this seems normal to us; however, Hebrew can do all three!). Greek is able to produce the H sound at the beginning of words, but not in the middle or end.[4] So, how would one transliterate any of the three from either Hebrew or Aramaic to Greek? There is, in fact, no way to transliterate the words other than by transliterating them without the rough breathing sound, which would yield three different options: Eloai, Eloi and Elai.
To prove the theory, we will select words which we know have the letter ה (letter H) in the middle and then compare them to the Greek transliterations (in the Septuagint) where, if the theory is correct, there should be the absence of a rough breathing mark (like the letter H). For example, Abraham in the Septuagint is Αβραάμ (Abraam).
Table 4 Loss of the ה (H) Sound in Greek
Verse
Hebrew Bible
Transliteration of Hebrew
Septuagint
Transliteration of Greek
Genesis 17:5
אברהם
Abraham
Αβραάμ
Abraam
Exodus 4:14
אהרן
Aharon
Ααρων
Aaron
Judges 3:15
אהוד
Ehud
Αωδ
Aod
I Sam 1:1
אליהוא
Elihu
Ηλιου
Eliu
II Sam 8:16
יהושׁפט
Jehoshaphat
Ιωσαφατ
Josaphat
I Kings 16:1
יהוא
Jehu
Ιου
You
II Kings 23:34
יהויקים
Jehoiakim
Ιωακιμ
Yoakim
Notice from the table that the Hebrew words lose the H in the Greek (and English transliteration). As expected, the Greek version cannot reproduce the H and so it was left out in the transliteration. Therefore, the word Eloi is not necessarily Aramaic simply based on the lack of the letter H. However it is too early to conclude that it is Hebrew. Clearly, the Hebrew letter he or H was lost due to transliteration, but was the original Hebrew or Aramaic? The loss of the letter he in the Greek transliteration leaves us with the following three possibilities: Eloai, Eloi, and Elai.
Clearly Eloi fits perfectly what Mark recorded and fortunately we have an example of this in the Septuagint. Judges 5:5 "The mountains gushed before the LORD, this Sinai before the LORD God of Israel" κυρίου Ελωι, τοῦτο Σινα ἀπὸ προσώπου κυρίου θεοῦ Ισραηλ (kuriou Eloi touto Sina apo prosopou kuriou theou Israel). Notice that they translated the word LORD (YHWH in Hebrew) into Greek as kuriou (Lord) and then added the word Eloi (my God), which is not in the Hebrew text. There are two things that must not be missed here. First of all, the mysterious word in Mark is attested in the Septuagint with exactly the same spelling. Secondly, the Septuagint was translated into Greek from Hebrew and not Aramaic. Thus when looking at Mark 15:34 we have solid evidence of how Elohi was transliterated from Hebrew (not Aramaic!) in to Greek. If Mark had been transliterating from Aramaic, he would probably not have written Eloi ᾿Ελωΐ[5] with the letter omega (ω) since the Aramaic is distinctly elahi and would have better transliterated it as ᾿Ελaΐ with the letter alpha.
In summary, we see that there is no way to actually write the Hebrew Elohai, Elohi, or the Aramaic Elahi except by dropping the letter he. Of the three, Elohi fits perfectly and is attested once in the Septuagint – ᾿Ελωΐ Eloi – the exact same spelling and meaning as what is in Mark 15:34. Furthermore, if Mark had been transliterating Aramaic, it most likely would have appeared as Elai and not Eloi. Our findings may explain the difference between Matthew and Mark since Matthew records Eli, Eli – which has the same meaning but does not present any problems of transliteration. Perhaps knowing this, we might conclude that Matthew simply wrote Eli Eli and not Eloi knowing that Greek letters could not reproduce the word Elohi and since Eli, Eli is how the Hebrew text of Psalm 22:1 reads. And it would seem that Mark opted to write the specific literal words, even though they could not be written exactly in Greek.
[1] Jesus makes reference to this word in John 10:34 of the leaders and judges of Israel.
[2] A beautiful example of the Trinity in the Old Testament (first occurring in Genesis 1:26).
[3] Both Hebrew and Aramaic were written in what was known as Aramaic script just like how English is written using Latin letters.
[4] My lovely wife, Anna, pointed this out to me!
[5] Mark includes the breathing marks and accents making it even clearer that it is to be pronounced Elo-i demonstrating that the Hebrew letter he has been dropped.
 
Lama
Lama למה, meaning why, is an extremely common word and is used least 145 times in the Hebrew OT in almost every book. It is seen in every phase in Hebrew – from proto Hebrew to Standard Biblical Hebrew to Late Biblical Hebrew and numerous times in the Mishnah. So, we should not be surprised to see it here in Jesus' day as well. The root letters lamed, mem and he are also found in Aramaic, though it should be noted that the vocalization (the vowels) are slightly different than what is recorded in Mark 15:34. The Aramaic word is lema.[6] It is possible that Mark was transliterating the Aramaic lema as λαμα (lama) – although we cannot be dogmatic about the issue, he could have more accurately written it with the Greek letter epsilon (λεμα) if that were the case.[7] However, as the historical sources indicate, it would seem that Mark was simply writing in Hebrew. Moreover, the word lama does not appear in the (Aramaic) Targum of Psalm 22:1. Even though lema exists in Aramaic, the translators of this Targum used two words metul ma, also meaning why. Thus, not only does the Hebrew lama fit better than the Aramaic lema but even the Targum doesn't use the word. Only the Hebrew text has the word that Jesus used while enduring our sins on the cross.
[6] The e is written with a shewa which is a very short sound.
[7] Some manuscripts do contain the variants λεμα lema, λιμα lima, – see The Robinson/Pierpont Byzantine Greek New Testament. However, the Textus Receptus and the Vulgate have λαμμα lamma or λαμα lama respectively.



 [/td][/tr][/table]
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2011, 12:37:13 AM »
 
Shabachtani
Shabachtani[8] שׁבקתני appears to be a word of Aramaic origin. It means to leave, leave alone, entrust, bequeath, divorce, permit, forgive, abandon and forsake. It is used a total of five times in the Old Testament, all of which are found in the Aramaic portions of Daniel and Ezra. However, given that there was a limited amount of Aramaic influence exerted on the Hebrew language after the return from the Babylonian captivity, we later see the root shabak[9] שׁבק attested in Jewish writings such as the Jerusalem Talmud, which is where the Mishna is found.
Of the seven occurrences of shabak in the Mishnah, four are clearly couched in Hebrew prose. A passage from the Jerusalem Talmud (31:5:1), is an especially good example of the words surrounding shabak. The text contains certain grammatical structures and vocabulary which occur only in Hebrew and not Aramaic. A few examples are the use of the letter ה he found at the beginning of words which means the (Aramaic has א – aleph at the end of words). Also the word שׁ Shay, that, (used only Hebrew) versus די di[10] (used only in Aramaic). Thus the word shabak, which Jesus spoke on the cross, we find situated in the midst of Mishnaic Hebrew words and grammar, and therefore, we can safely conclude that while this was originally a loan word from Aramaic, by Jesus' day, it had become common place in the Hebrew language. We should actually expect there to be some loan words in the language.
Consider for example, if you live in France and you hear someone say that he intends to do "le jogging" you should not conclude that he is actually speaking English! Likewise, consider the dramatic influence French had on English – we use without any thought words such as pork and beef not knowing that these words are not originally English. This does not lead us to the conclusion that Americans are speaking French, though it does imply that there was some French influence upon the English language. In fact, pork and beef have become so common that we are often surprised to learn that they are French. Nevertheless, though pork and beef are clearly French, the way they are spelled (vs. porc and boeuf) shows that they have been completely assimilated into the English language.[11] And so it is with Shabaktani – the word seems to have come originally from Aramaic but was completely assimilated into (Mishnaic) Hebrew as attested by its usage in the writings of the Mishnah, which as pointed out already, was the final stage of ancient Hebrew before its demise around 200 AD[12]. Also, the ending of the word "ta+ni" is exactly what we would expect in Biblical Hebrew[13] viz. shabakta=you forsook +ni=me.
[8] The Aramaic word is actually Shabachtani – Greek does not have the "sh" sound which is why the NT text has transliterated it as Sabachtani.
[9] The last root letter is like the letter K as in kite. Again this is a matter of transliteration.
[10] The other uses are: זאת zot, בן ben, אני ani, את et - these words are specifically Hebrew. The Aramaic counterpart is different enough so that we can conclude that these words are Hebrew and not Aramaic. Ben and bar (in a later chapter), however, are often interchangeable.
[11] Perhaps even more surprising is discovering that the word sack is in fact a Hebrew word – it is found 17 times in the Old Testament. It has been so completely assimilated that few people ever give it a second thought. It is indeed English, but was originally (and still is!) Hebrew.
[12] Hebrew essentially died as a spoken language but was still in use in Jewish life up until the establishment of Modern Hebrew.
[13] The form, though, is the same in Aramaic.
..........
Conclusion: Jesus Spoke Hebrew as His Primary Language

We set out to discover whether or not the presupposition that Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Hebrew was true.  We saw that the New Testament itself tells us that Jesus spoke Hebrew to Paul (Acts 26:14) and in turn Paul spoke to a large crowd in the Temple in Jerusalem in Hebrew (Acts 22:2).  John also says that places in Israel had Hebrew names and that the sign on the cross was written in Hebrew.  Nowhere in the New Testament do we see the word Aramaic or Syriac – that is except in certain English translations, which assume that Hebrew really meant Aramaic. 

We then considered the question of whether Hebrew does in fact mean Aramaic as some suggest and found that the ancient sources examined are all uniform in their distinction between Hebrew and Aramaic.  Furthermore, ancient sources such as Josephus say unambiguously that the language of the Jews in Israel at the time of Jesus was Hebrew.  This testimony was confirmed by later writers, especially those of the early church who said that Hebrew was the language of the Gospel of Matthew – which fits perfectly with the findings of many scholars who have found Semitic thought patterns (which includes Aramaic) and also specifically Hebrew thought patterns (excluding Aramaic) throughout the New Testament.

Moreover, in order to see if the testimony of the ancient sources was indeed true, we examined the actual words of Jesus and of the Gospels to see if they are Hebrew or if they are Aramaic as is so often claimed.  Not surprisingly, the words which Jesus spoke that had been claimed to be Aramaic, were shown to be Hebrew from either the Bible or Mishnaic Hebrew thus confirming the testimony of John (5:2; 19:13; 19:17), Mark (5:41, 7:34, 15:34), Paul (Acts 21:40, 26:14), the early Church fathers, plus Josephus and others.  Many of the features that have made scholars a hundred years ago relegate these words to Aramaic are a byproduct of transliteration.  Others such as mammon, korban and abba, are words that are clearly evident in the pages of the Mishna and thus are Hebrew or even if some were originally Aramaic, they were by Jesus' day completely assimilated into the Hebrew language.

So, what can we walk away with?  How does this impact you?  First of all, hopefully, this study helped you to see that the New Testament, and of course, the Bible as a whole, is 100% trustworthy.  We can believe every word that it says and we ought to believe God's word as it is written even if the scholarship of the day disagrees.  Scholars, even well intentioned believers, change their opinions over time.  God's word, however, never changes and whether the question is the language of Jesus or whether we can believe that he rose from the dead, God's word has been proven trustworthy. 

Secondly, it should unmistakably demonstrate the eyewitness accounts of the Gospel writers.  They wrote down what they saw and heard.  Though most of them were uneducated fishermen, they left us a record that is accurate even in the minor details.  And most importantly, understanding that Jesus spoke Hebrew provides a continuous tie between the words and thoughts of the Old Testament and those of Jesus and the New Testament.  In short, Jesus came to his people, in their historic language – fulfilling the prophecies of their Hebrew Scriptures.  Jesus spoke Hebrew with his disciples, with the crowds and with the religious leaders of his day.  He probably knew Aramaic and Greek and used them in certain social contexts but his language of communication with the Jewish people, his disciples and the language in which he taught his parables to the masses was undoubtedly Hebrew, as the New Testament claims.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2011, 12:39:56 AM »
The words ben and bar are Hebrew and Aramaic respectively, meaning son. The demarcation between the two has been thought to be so clear that the ben/bar distinction is often used to decide whether an inscription is Hebrew or Aramaic.  However, Ken Penner, at the 2003 Canadian Society of Biblical Studies Annual Meeting, notes that the ben/bar rule may not be as useful as it was once thought. 
…a clue to the solution may be found in the Bar Kokhba letters…These letters unavailable to Dalman and Zahn a century ago, are from the early second century CE. 1 Some are in Aramaic, some in Hebrew, and some in Greek.  Especially noteworthy for our purposes is the use of Aramaic names within Hebrew letters, and vice-versa.  It is common practice to use the ben/bar distinction to categorize inscriptions as either Hebrew or Aramaic.  But it appears (not only from these letters) that names are not reliable indicators of language.  Names are notoriously resistant to translation. (Penner 2003)

In the letters there are examples of where the Aramaic bar is used in Hebrew correspondence and likewise, Hebrew ben is sometimes used in Aramaic correspondence and both of these occasionally appear in Greek.  Thus, just because we find the word bar recorded in New Testament names, we need not conclude that the name bearers necessarily spoke Aramaic.  Names such as Bar-abbas, Bar-tholomaios, Bar-iesous, Bar-iona, Bar-nabas, Bar-sabas, Bar-timaios have the appearance of Aramaic, but it is impossible to tell which language the bearer of each name spoke. 
The use of non-Hebrew names seems to have been rather common since even the (Jewish) disciples Philip and Andrew have Greek names.  Philip, however, was not from Greece or anywhere else outside of Israel, but was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter according to John 1:44.  Andrew likewise had a completely Greek name, though his brother had a completely Hebrew name – Simon, in honor of one of the 12 Patriarchs, and their father had a completely Hebrew name, Jonah, named after the prophet.  It should be kept in mind that Peter seems to have had three names in all, each in a different language: Shimon (Hebrew), Kepha (probably Aramaic but the root keph is found twice in the Hebrew Bible: Job 30:6 and Jeremiah 4:29), and obviously, Peter (Greek) – talk about culturally diverse!  Just because Philip and Andrew had Greek names, we don't assume that they were Greek or that Greek was their mother tongue (though they may have spoken it as a second or even third language).  Quite possibly what happened was that, like today, the parents knew someone with the name or just simply liked how it sounded.  When I spent a few months in the Dominican Republic during college, my host family had a son named Wilmington and nobody in the family spoke any English! 
However, most of the disciples had Hebrew names: James is simply the Greek form of the Hebrew Jacob (heal catcher).  The name of his brother John reflects the Hebrew name Yochanan (God is gracious).  Thomas is the Greek form of the Hebrew Teom which means twin.  Matthew, Judas, Alphaeus and Lebbaeus are likewise New Testament names of Hebrew stock, which we either find in the Old Testament or at least have an easily identifiable Hebrew root.  Though we do not see any names with the Hebrew word ben (son) preceding it, that may simply be because those were translated in to Greek.  For example, when Jesus speaks to Peter, he says, "Simon son of Jonah" (John 1:42), which more than likely, was Simon ben Jonah.  This conclusion is supported by the high number of Hebrew names attested in the New Testament.

Table 2 Names in the New Testament
Hebrew names – English equivalent
Transliteration
Hebrew
Greek
John
Yochanan
יוחנן
Ἰωάννης
Simon (Peter)
Shimon
שׁמעון
Σίμων
Cephas (Aramaic) (Peter)
Kephas
(כף) כפא
Κηφᾶς
Thomas
Teom
תּאום
Θωμᾶς
Jacob (James)
Jaakob
יעקב
Ἰάκωβος
Matthew
Matai
מתי
Ματθαῖος
Judas
Jehuda
יהוּדה
Ἰουδάς
Greek names – English equivalent



Peter
Petros

Πέτρος
Philip
Philipos

Φίλιππος
Andrew
Andreas

Ἀνδρέας


The table above demonstrates that even though the Aramaic bar was a common designation for son, most names still come from a Hebrew origin.  Moreover, names are actually a poor indicator of the spoken language since even some of the (Jewish) disciples had either exclusively Greek names or in the case of Peter, had three names, each in a different language.  Thus, the ben/bar distinction proves to be unhelpful in determining which language the person spoke and so the presence of names which have bar does not prove that Aramaic had replaced Hebrew by any means.

 1 CE – Common Era is used by some scholars in place of AD.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2011, 04:58:39 AM »
5And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

 6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

 7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

 8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

 9And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.

--Numbers 12



This is so clearly Jesus to me.  But, I've been thinking.  Is the Memra in the shape of a man? He stands, walks, talks face to face, touches with his hand, --he is always described as a man.

When newage talks about god, goddess, all there is, etc...it denies this.  When evolution talks about man from apes...it denies this.

Is it possible that the Word was in the shape of a man before time began?
If so, making man in his own image takes on a dramatic and literal meaning.

Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2011, 05:10:59 AM »
Numbers 12


1 Miriam and Aaron began to say bad things about Moses. That's because Moses had married a woman from Cush. 2 "Has the Lord spoken only through Moses?" they asked. "Hasn't he also spoken through us?" The Lord heard what they said.

 3 Moses wasn't very proud at all. In fact, he had less pride than anyone else on the face of the earth.

 4 The Lord spoke to Moses, Aaron and Miriam. He said, "All three of you, come out to the Tent of Meeting." So they did. 5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud. He stood at the entrance to the tent. And he told Aaron and Miriam to come to him. Both of them stepped forward.

 6 Then the Lord said, "Listen to my words.


   "Suppose one of my prophets is among you.
      I make myself known to him in visions.
      I speak to him in dreams.
 7 But that is not true of my servant Moses.
      He is faithful in everything he does in my house.
 8 With Moses I speak face to face.
      I speak with him clearly. I do not speak in riddles.
      I let him see something of what I look like.
   So why were you not afraid
      to speak against my servant Moses?"

 9 The anger of the Lord burned against them. And he left them.

 10 When the cloud went up from above the tent, there stood Miriam. She had a disease that made her skin as white as snow.

   Aaron turned toward her. He saw that she had a skin disease. 11 So he said to Moses, "We have committed a very foolish sin. Please don't hold it against us. 12 Don't let Miriam be like a baby that was born dead. Don't let her look like a dead baby whose body is half eaten away."

 13 So Moses cried out to the Lord. He said, "God, please heal her!"

 14 The Lord answered Moses. He said, "Suppose her father had spit in her face. Then she would have been put to shame for seven days. So keep her outside the camp for seven days. After that, you can bring her back."

 15 So Miriam was kept outside the camp for seven days. The people didn't move on until she was brought back.

 16 After that, the people left Hazeroth. They camped in the Desert of Paran.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 05:33:11 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2011, 05:54:47 AM »
Moses calls the Word, 'Jehovah' and 'God.'



Numbers  12:13  And MosesH4872 criedH6817 untoH413 the LORD,H3068 saying,H559 HealH7495 her now,H4994 O God,H410 I beseech thee.H4994


"the LORD"
H3068
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.


"O God"
H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."






Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2011, 10:11:20 AM »
Numbers 14

10 But all of the people talked about killing Joshua and Caleb by throwing stones at them.

   Then the glory of the Lord appeared at the Tent of Meeting. All of the people of Israel saw it. 11 The Lord spoke to Moses. He said, "How long will these people make fun of me? How long will they refuse to believe in me? They refuse even though I have done many miraculous signs among them. 12 So I will strike them down with a plague. I will destroy them. But I will make you into a greater and stronger nation than they are."

 13 Moses said to the Lord, "Then the Egyptians will hear about it. You used your power to bring these people up from among them.

 14 "And the Egyptians will tell the people who live in Canaan about it. Lord, they have already heard a lot about you. They've heard that you are with these people. They've heard that you have been seen face to face. They've been told that your cloud stays over them. They've heard that you go in front of them in a pillar of cloud by day. They've been told that you go in front of them in a pillar of fire at night.

 15 "Suppose you put these people to death all at one time. Then the nations who have heard those things about you will talk. They'll say, 16 "The Lord took an oath. He promised to give these people the land of Canaan. But he wasn't able to bring them into it. So he killed them in the desert.'

 17 "Now, Lord, show your strength. You have said, 18 "I am the Lord. I am slow to get angry. I am full of love. I forgive those who sin. I forgive those who refuse to obey. But I do not let guilty people go without punishing them. I punish the children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren for the sin of their parents.'

 19 "Lord, your love is great. So forgive the sin of these people. Forgive them just as you have done from the time they left Egypt until now."

 20 The Lord replied, "I have forgiven them, just as you asked. 21 You can be sure that I live. You can be sure that my glory fills the whole earth.

 22 "And you can be just as sure that these men will not see the land I promised to give them. They have seen my glory. They have seen the miraculous signs I did in Egypt. And they have seen what I did in the desert. But they did not obey me. And they have put me to the test ten times. 23 So not even one of them will ever see the land I promised with an oath to give to their people of long ago. No one who has made fun of me will ever see it.

 24 "But my servant Caleb has a different spirit. He follows me with his whole heart. So I will bring him into the land he went to. And his children after him will receive land there.



Jude 1 [English Standard Version]

5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 10:14:21 AM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2011, 10:28:21 AM »
I would like to see a translation that doesn't use the words 'god' and 'lord'. Instead using Father and Son.
I think it's enough for a whole new denomination (war)  :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2011, 10:32:57 AM »
I would like to see a translation that doesn't use the words 'god' and 'lord'. Instead using Father and Son.
I think it's enough for a whole new denomination (war)  :winkgrin:
well, E sword references the definitions of 'God' and Lord' but there is a Bible online that just replaced those words with the original Hebrew, but I can't seem to find it anymore.  I'll keep looking.

If there's a war, what would we be fighting about?  I can only think of one place in the OT where 'Son' is used.

Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2011, 10:41:52 AM »
In E-sword for numbers 14 which I quoted above, all references to LORD [or Lord in the version I quoted] refers to the name of God, 'Jehovah.'

Of course, 'Jehovah' comes from YHWH, which is I AM THAT I AM, which Jesus identified himself as when he said, Before Abraham was, I AM.


 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

--John 8
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 10:47:05 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2011, 10:53:30 AM »

 13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

--Ex 3


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2011, 11:15:06 AM »
I would like to see a translation that doesn't use the words 'god' and 'lord'. Instead using Father and Son.
I think it's enough for a whole new denomination (war)  :winkgrin:
well, E sword references the definitions of 'God' and Lord'
As a former e-Sword user I would like to strongly suggest giving www.theword.net a serious try.


Quote
but there is a Bible online that just replaced those words with the original Hebrew, but I can't seem to find it anymore.  I'll keep looking.
Is it called "Hebrew Name Version"?

HNVMatt 1
1 The book of the generation of Yeshua the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Avraham.
2 Avraham became the father of Yitzchak. Yitzchak became the father of Ya`akov. Ya`akov became the father of Yehudah and his brothers.
3 Yehudah became the father of Peretz and Zerach by Tamar. Peretz became the father of Chetzron. Chetzron became the father of Ram.
4 Ram became the father of `Amminadav. `Amminadav became the father of Nachshon. Nachshon became the father of Salmon.
5 Salmon became the father of Bo`az by Rachav. Bo`az became the father of `Oved 1 by Rut. `Oved 1 became the father of Yishai.
6 Yishai became the father of David the king. David became the father of Shlomo by her who had been the wife of Uriyah.
7 Shlomo became the father of Rechav`am. Rechav`am became the father of Aviyah. Aviyah became the father of Asa.
8 Asa became the father of Yehoshafat. Yehoshafat became the father of Yoram. Yoram became the father of `Uzziyah.
9 `Uzziyah became the father of Yotam. Yotam became the father of Achaz. Achaz became the father of Chizkiyahu.
10 Chizkiyahu became the father of Menasheh. Menasheh became the father of Amon. Amon became the father of Yoshiyahu.

If so; God and Lord are translated the same way KJV did.


Quote
If there's a war, what would we be fighting about?  I can only think of one place in the OT where 'Son' is used.
That's not enough? People fight about every difference. Take trinity for example. Surely it's interesting to discuss. But would it make God more/less/equally powerful if trinity is (not) true?
Search for sites that compare each letter of a new translation with the KJV. Every diffrence means blasphemy. Image what happens if half the God verses become 'Son verses'.
I can't think of one but likely it has some theologically implications that really matter.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2011, 09:21:21 PM »
41 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am the LORD your God.'
--Num 15



1 Sam 3

20And all Israel from Dan even to Beersheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of the LORD.

 21And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.



Is there anyone who doesn't see this?

Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #63 on: March 27, 2011, 09:39:53 PM »
9Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

 10The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

--Gen 49



Judah is a lion's cub--

5And one of the elders said to me, "Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals."

--Rev 5:5



"Shiloh"

H7886
שׁילה
shı̂ylôh
shee-lo'
From H7951; tranquil; Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah: - Shiloh.


Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2011, 10:34:13 AM »
11And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.

 12And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.

 13And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.

 14And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?

 15And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.

 16And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.

--Judges 6

Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2011, 06:24:29 PM »
 17 Gideon replied, "If you are pleased with me, give me a special sign. Then I'll know that it's really you talking to me. 18 Please don't go away until I come back. I'll bring my offering and set it down in front of you."

   The Lord said, "I will wait until you return."

 19 Gideon went and prepared a young goat. From more than half a bushel of flour he made bread without using yeast. He put the meat in a basket. In a pot he put soup that was made from the meat. Then he brought all of it and offered it to the Lord under the oak tree.

 20 The angel of God spoke to Gideon. He said, "Take the meat and the bread. Place them on this rock. Then pour out the soup." So Gideon did it.

 21 The angel of the Lord had a wooden staff in his hand. With the tip of his staff he touched the meat and the bread. Fire blazed out of the rock. It burned up the meat and the bread. Then the angel of the Lord disappeared.

 22 Gideon realized it was the angel of the Lord. He cried out, "Lord and King, I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!"

 23 But the Lord said to him, "May peace be with you! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."

24 So Gideon built an altar to honor the Lord there. He called it The Lord Is Peace. It still stands in Ophrah to this very day. Ophrah is in the territory that belongs to the family line of Abiezer.

--Judges 6




"Lord and King" [v 22]

'ădônây yehôvih"



"The Lord Is Peace"  [v 24]

yehôvâh shâlôm




Offline thinktank

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2011, 12:49:56 AM »


It seems this place is more fruitfull to receive truth about the divinity of Jesus. It's good that people are respecting the power of our saviour.

The following verses should increase faith in who Jesus is. Judging by the style of communication, I reason that it is the spirit of Jesus that is influencing Isiah and not the Father, because it sounds just like Jesus. Also remember that the first book that Jesus read in the synagogue was the book of Isiah. I hope these verses will be a blessing.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour

He that believeth upon me shall have everlasting life
Jesus

Isaiah 43:13
Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

No one shall take them out of my hand, for they are mine
Jesus

Isaiah 43:15
I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King

Jesus on the cross, written king of the Jews

Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Know that the son of man has power to forgive sins.
Jesus

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Revelation
I am the Alpha and Omega

Jesus calls out to the father, "why have you forsaken me". The Father = the Lord of Hosts the reedemer of Jesus, the redeemer of the LORD the king of Israel?

Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


New testament Paul
All things were created for Him and through him

Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.


There is no other name that mankind might be saved but through Jesus



Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Romans come out to arrest Jesus, "where is he"

I am he

They fell to the ground backwords

Isaiah 52:6
Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Do not be affraid it is I

My sheep know my voice and follow me.
Jesus

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2011, 02:45:10 AM »
Gen 46:3 And saying is He, "I am the El, the Elohim of your forefather. You must not fear to go down to Egypt, for a great nation will I constitute you there.
Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 18:6  As soon then as he had said unto them, I am,-- they went backward, and fell to the ground.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Amen Molly!
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2011, 08:06:53 PM »
Thanks for posting micah. John 18:6 talks about how Jesus says I am he, which was spoken in Isaiah 43:25

Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2011, 04:07:27 AM »
9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: "Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city." 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
--Acts 18

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2011, 04:51:08 PM »
The Hebrew word for the divine law is Torah. The first letter, tav, was originally written as a cross. It literally means "a sign" and is used in Ez. 9:4, where it is translated as a "mark" to be put on the foreheads of the divinely protected ones. This is the ancient origin of the practice of writing the sign of the cross on one's forehead.

The second letter in Torah is the vav, which literally means "a nail."

The third letter in Torah is the resh, which means "a head" or "the head" in the sense of the leader.

The final letter in Torah is the hey, which, when it appears at the end of the word, means "what comes from."

Putting these letters together spells the Hebrew word, Torah, and it literally means "What comes from the Leader nailed to the Cross." It is a prophecy that identifies the giver of the Torah as Jesus Christ, the Head or King, the Crucified One, gave the law to Moses many years before He was born of Mary.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2011, 08:35:07 PM »
I am sure it is my lack of understanding but I lost track of the post "God has a solid form?" on around #28 I had the thought that the question was, has God a solid form..... I went into the woods at #28 and one cold say I got lost  :mshock:. I did in the beginning consider the question very interesting. ... thanks
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2011, 02:12:27 AM »
Here you go, Micah.  John sees, hears, and touches Jesus/God.



10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

 12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

 15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

 16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

 17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

--Rev 1

Offline thinktank

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2011, 02:49:25 AM »
I think God is like water, he is fluid, yet can be solid like ice, he is Spirit and the spirit comes and goes like the wind. Maybe that's why God calls himself I am. He is so fast that even before you pray, he is there,

before you pray I will answer thee.

-------------------------------
He's a supersonic God that flies through the air, before you blow your nose he is standing there
Hes supersonic, super sonic God, yeah.

If any Christian record companies reading this, want to sign me up? ......  :icon_jokercolor:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God has a solid form?
« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2011, 06:21:58 AM »
I guess its just me the word "solid" through me, also I m of the belief that the Book of Revelation is a book of signs(symbols) not literal or solid, so forgive my ignorance. I have totally misread and misunderstood the post.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.