Annihilationism vs Universalism

[Jock]

Hi folks

I was thinking of the LOF which is the second death. This takes place after the 2nd resurrection and the white throne, Judgement.

There is no 3rd resurrection, which would seem to mean that those who were burnt up in the Lake, ceased to exist, only to become as ash under the feet of the redeemed.

Any thoughts?

Jock   :sigh:

[ded2daworld]

It never says those in the LOF will be consumed. It never says anything about anyone being there but who it was created for - the devils and his angels - no mention of humans in there.
Are you assuming that there are just some people that will continue to override the will and love of God with their "free will" which must be stronger than God's? :dontknow: :Chinscratch: :Peace2:

[JulieTang84]

Jock please read and take special note of the word WORKS. Also the final verse

1Cr 3:11. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Cr 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,

1Cr 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.

1Cr 3:14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.

1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

It is only ever the Works that are consumed. Not the person . Besides it is a figurative fire

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Jock]

Julie, thanks, that made it nice and clear. I sometimes must be shown those things like I'm a four year old!  :sigh:

ded2daworld, I was thinking of this:

Revelation 20:14-15
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jock  :flamebreath:

[WhiteWings]

3 harvests - 3 resurrections

http://www.thewayprepared.com/studies/3-foldharvest.html
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/threeharvests.htm
http://www.theopenscroll.com/beyond_veil/appendices/resurrectionSequence.htm

http://www.wor.org/Books/t/three_deaths_and_three_resurrect%20one.htm
http://www.wor.org/Books/t/three_deaths_and_three_resurrect%20two.htm
http://www.wor.org/Books/t/three_deaths_and_three_resurrect%20three.htm


Etc :banana:

[sheila]

  the 'works' burnt up........everything,whether good or evil...comes from God or theevil contrast

   spirit........only Godisgood...andany 'good' workisdonethroughHisspirit...only the wicked

  contrast is wicked...andany wickednessis done through it...........discern the tree andit's

fruit.........the good samaritaaandid a 'good' work through the spirit of God..........

  make the tree good or evil...the axe is already at the root of the trees..andevery tree that

does not produce good fruit[not of God's spirit] shall be cut downandthrown  intothe fire

  or every plant the Lord did not plant shall be pulled upofit's roots[look anenemy hath donethis]

     discerning the tree...it is known of it's fruit..whether of God,or the wicked one

  look!....the son with the evil spirit in him that often  caast him down  Matt 17;15  and throw

him in the water or fire[think wicked in Noah's day..and lof/judgementas wicked annihilation]

and see howJesus handles wicked spirits that tryanddestroythe children..........Mark 9;29

   through water andfire....note seizuresof the boy by the wicked spirit...foaming at the mouth

   seizures coz 'gnashing' ofteeth...realize exactly 'who/what' is cast out andgnashingit's teeth

    andwho/whaat isdelivered....then know 'who/what is outside the Holy city.....

     See how Jesus handles such wicked spirits in men that endeavour to cast them in the

  Lof. through 'seizing'them

[Tom]

Hi folks

I was thinking of the LOF which is the second death. This takes place after the 2nd resurrection and the white throne, Judgement.

There is no 3rd resurrection, which would seem to mean that those who were burnt up in the Lake, ceased to exist, only to become as ash under the feet of the redeemed.

Any thoughts?

Jock   :sigh:

The book of "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]" containing "the second death-the lake of fire" is at the end of your bible, but it's not the end of the story. Those who died as unbelievers raised to be judged before the "great white throne" and cast into "the lake of fire" will be dead until they are "vivified" at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished, and God will be "all in all."

"13 And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts.
14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-15)

"13 Thus all evil is segregated in the lake of fire, where Satan and the wild beast and the false prophet already are (20:10). "This is the second death" defines the lake of fire. Those who have been raised from death return to the same state in the second death. The only immunity from condemnation lies in having a place in the scroll of life." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 404)

"12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused.
14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith.
15 Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused.
16 For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused.
17 Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith -- you are still in your sins!
18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished.
19 If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we.
20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (1 Corinthians 15:12-28)

"12 The resurrection is the very fundamental of fundamentals. The death of Christ is essential to the evangel, yet it is not enough. A dead Christ cannot save. The resurrection is not only essential, but it involves His death, for only one who is dead can be roused from the dead. Without His resurrection we are still in our sins.

18 The state of the dead, apart from resurrection, is not one of ecstatic bliss, but of destruction.

20 Christ was not the first one to be roused from the dead. The prophets, and the Lord Himself, recalled some to life before He Himself suffered death. But He is the first One to be made alive beyond the power of death. All the others were roused to die again. He is the First fruit of those who are vivified, and die no more.

21 Death's entrance and exit are both through a man. Adam and Christ are the channels, respectively, through which death and resurrection reach all mankind.

22 The words "even as'' mark a close parallel. The universality of death, through Adam, is beyond question. "Thus also" we are told, "in Christ, shall all be vivified." This will not occur simultaneously but in three distinct classes at widely separated intervals of time. Christ, the First fruit, is already alive at God's right hand. We who are Christ's will be made alive at His presence. This includes His coming to the air for the believers of this economy (1Thes.4:16; 1Cor.15:52; Phil.3:21) and His coming to Israel before the thousand years. The rest, who are not included in "those who are Christ's," must wait until the consummation, when death, the last enemy, is abolished. This will not occur until the eons have run their course and Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father. At the great white throne judgment no one is vivified or made alive. Hence it is passed over. Authority and power are still in exercise in the new earth. The throne of the Lamb is there. The consummation must be later, for sovereignty is abolished before death, the last enemy. The consummation is at the close of the eonian times, at the close of the last eon which is presented to our view in the final vision of the Unveiling.

25 The reign of Christ is so beneficent, it brings mankind to such a state of perfection, that all further need of the restraints of government vanishes. Rule implies insubordination, and is unnecessary where there is perfect subjection. Rule is a temporary expedient to cope with evil. When evil is banished rule also retires. The effects of evil for mankind are concentrated in death. When the universe has been purged of all other evil, then death itself becomes inoperative and yields up its victims. Not till then is it true that all are made alive in Christ.

27 The universality of Christ's subjection of all under His feet is evident from the one exception—God Himself.

28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
http://concordant.org/
http://concordant.org/version/CLNT_Intro.htm
http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC00.htm
http://concordant.org/online/index.html

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[sheila]

why would any man want to cast mankind inthe LOF?  that is what the evil spirit does!!!!

   when God judges the people learn righteousness...there fore God declares TRUTH and

removes allthings that cause men to stumble[namely,lying prophets/Babylon/bestly/carnal

teachings andthe satanand his devils] when Heremoves andburns up  'these lying works

deceptions/powers/carnal understandings" from man...thenHE CAN LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS

  AND NOT HAVE THESE POWERS TEMPTING HIM,NOR DECEIVING NOR RULING OVER HIM!!

  KNOWING GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE...THE PEOPLE WILL BE DE#LIVERED AND KNOW GOD

  HE WILL BE ALL IN ALL..BECAUSE THE EVIL CONTRST IS GONE!!!!!!!


   HE REALLY DOES TAKE AWY THE SIN FROM ALL MEN

  3harvests...barly wheat and  grapes..barley was gathered at Hisfirst coming...and through

generations since then..of men inthis class..............wheat..at His return..He seperates

andrefines those'wheat'He gathers out of Babylon...grapes...all men that have died

not knowing of the grace of God in their lifetimes.....there are grapesofwrathandgrapes that

are turned into the best wine[last]

    weeds,tares.grapes of wrath..that set teeth onedge..........In those days people will

nolonger saay......'the  fathers have eatensour grapes and the children's teeth have been set

onedge"..........this refers to first Adam and sinentering all men...fromnowon caall no man

your father..God aloneis your Father...all resurecctedmenwill have God as their true Father

old damwill have diedin allof them..NEW COVENANT......put my laws in theirminds and

hearts  NOLONGER WILL A MAN TEACH HIS BROTHER..saying KNOW THE LORD...


  BECAUSE THEY WILL ALL KNOW ME!!!!!!!![thisis eternal life toKNOW THE ONE TRUE GOD!

   

[Jock]

Thanks Guys

There is a lot for me to ingest and chew on here. I'll come back to you next week sometime.

Jock    :dsunny:

[Jock]

Julie, what do you mean by a "figurative fire?"

Tom, I think I am beginning to see in the Spirit that God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth and those who are dust will be vivified because all things will be as new. It's just kinda difficult to get this one down into concrete.

WW, I've been looking at one of the links you sent me, the one about the 3 resurrections. It's very good.

Anyways, still reading.

Cheers for now  :banana:

Jock

[WhiteWings]

WW, I've been looking at one of the links you sent me, the one about the 3 resurrections. It's very good.

Good to hear Jock.
The book is 3 volumes. I edited my post and added volume 2 and 3

[Tom]

Tom, I think I am beginning to see in the Spirit that God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth and those who are dust will be vivified because all things will be as new. It's just kinda difficult to get this one down into concrete.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"20 Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished until the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27) and when all mankind are saved (1Tim.4:10) and justified (Rom.5:18). This takes us far beyond the new earth portrayed at the end of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, for there He still reigns, many of mankind are still lost, and death is not yet abolished." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 303)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

I believe the chastening that some refer to as associated with the lake of fire is actually accomplished during the judgment at the great white throne prior to the lake of fire because mortals in the lake of fire will be dead and therefore not conscious to be chastened.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/AResurrectionOfJudging.html

[JulieTang84]

Julie, what do you mean by a "figurative fire?"

Jock

Jock many fail to understand the significance of Father when he said: "Let us make man in our image"

Clearly, Father isn't human; He is Spirit. Therefore, must not we also be spirit? 

1Cr 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

This is clearly saying "There IS a natural body, and there IS a SPIRITUAL body.

Also, this Scripture states beyond debate that when the natural body dies it is raised a spiritual body.

Clearly, fire as we know it cannot burn / cleanse spirit.

Hope this helps,

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Jock]

Julie, that was helpful, very clear. Seems there is going to be a lot of dying going on, but also leading into a lot of living. I'd love to be in the 1st resurrection but I guess not all will. There are even Christians (don't like that term) who will have to wait until the 2nd.

Cheers for now

Jock  :Pray:

[sheila]

 yes,the links WW put up ofthethree stages of be liftedup[resurrection] inChrist

  was not lost on me.  I see a correlation in 1 John 2; 12-14

littlechildren,youngmen..and Fathers...

       sowing seed[tender sprout come up/treat littlechildren/flock withtenderness]

watering/growth.   sanctification[young men]  ........ripeness/maturity.....[fathers/saviours

positions ofoversite[throne]

      barley cake=seed of spiritual Israel sowninland to inherit[Judges 7;14]

     wheat= Elijah1 Kings 18;33-35  watering of the seed/seperating of the tares[prophets

of baal/aashtoreth destroyed[sanctification]

   grapes=best wine for last[cup/covenant of throne] waterturned to wine] 1 Cor10;16

  cup of blessing/increase/Fathers

    barley= enough to sustain one man'slife/needs Rev 6;5wheat=enough tosustain a family for

a days wages....oilandwine= well-oileddishes/winefeast..winekeptonthe lees=abundance

for all men[savioursrise uponMt Zion/the revealing of the sonsofGodofwhich the cretion had

beengroaning for....maturity

   

[rosered]

Julie, thanks, that made it nice and clear. I sometimes must be shown those things like I'm a four year old!  :sigh:

ded2daworld, I was thinking of this:

Revelation 20:14-15
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jock  :flamebreath:

I too  ask the Lord  our God our Father about these thngs like a hungry child  learning Jock

  you gave the verse   Rev 20    bout Death and hades    being thown into the Lake of Fire

   But I always  was puzzled by  Daeth riding a horse ???     How does and why does   Death ride a horse ?
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


  Seems the  mystery is in the horses and what they do   and what they represent
  they are swift  and always  used in battle 
so the sign of horses and the red ones black ones and white ones   have a special meaning/purpose   in the BIBLE   of what they do  in Gods plan  , this pale horse and Death  is its rider  ,  the power of Life and death is in the tongue !

   we see the comparing them in REV 9   this battle !!     very profound they are locusts  but look like horses  and   also in James
our big clues   are found

  our flesh is like horses   , we  make the flesh / horses    obey us by  a bridle  in its mouth
  and  the horse   our own flesh   is driven by winds / spirits

  good spirits or bad spirits

look  at these

Isa 31:3 Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit. When the LORD shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is holpen shall fall down, and they all shall fail together.
.
Eze 23:20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

  remember the  issue  of blood shall  flow  to the horses bridles !!Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


here in James explains alot to the mystries of battle  of Life and death  in the POWER  of the tongue    and we KNOW  that LIFE in Jersus Christ has the power and victory over death 

  its the VOICE of the Lord  as many waters FROM ABOVE that puts out the fires  of  the tongues  of Death , that Rider  of the pale horse !!    I ask    could a pale horse  represent
no blood / life in them ???   because  the Life is in the Blood according the the scriptures

But in the end  God is a consuming FIRE  that swallows up  death and hades /hell the graves  in VICTORY !! 
Jam 3:


3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. 


bits being to steer and guide  and the whole body being our flesh  as horses by a wind breath spirit in the horses  breathing had  when running to and fro

Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.


   winds as spirits  , if you look up  SPIRIT 


Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!



And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity:

so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.


hell follows after Death  from the tongue !!


For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:


But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.


REV 9 !
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God


Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 

   I just hope you can see a little bit of what I am trying to explain here   

  when you look into those     things , you can see with  a new perspective

  on how hidden in plain  sight Gods Word is !

  sorry this got sooooooooo   long  , and its not as clear as I had hoped it could be

I just know its all about JESUS CHRIST !   
OUR FOUCUS and to keep our eyes on Him  , 
we are not  ''special ''      its the LORD  HIMSELF  that is  special and  holy and we are blessed by HIS   WORKING in us ,  and that makes it ''special ''   to us whom have been  fortunate  enough to be given   eyes to see and hears to hear and heart to understand what the SPIRIT is saying and doing   in the  new heavens and earth   

  for me I always wondered what its meant by the LAMB  slain from the foundation of  the world

  I do not any longer see it as the literal old world that stands today 
but the Cross of Jesus Christ  was and is the new heavens and earth being established    before our very eyes and lives   here and now !    from that time  of the open show   to  now and to keep on coming   is our LORD JESUS CHRIST coming in the clouds of glory   , the many witnesses ,  that we are  so blessed to be in that number !!    GLORY TO GOD !

[joeteekay]

Hi all,

The LOF is only mentioned in the last part or revelation. It has to do with the 2nd resurrection and the white throne judgment. IMO when the second death occurs there will be no more LOF and it will have been ended with the new heavens and new earth IMO. Just wondering since LOF is often directly associated with the second death. Second death is the end of any need for judgment or fire. It will then be that GOD ID ALL IN ALL. :Peace2:

[sheila]

awesome post,Rose!!!   Onething I noticed about horses..is how quickly a'wind' canaffect them

  wind/spirit very similiar in root word.... a littlewind come up..and they act 'strange!" attimes

  sometimes...spooked...sometimes...a different reaction. Iremember thinking inmy 20's

  'what's up with their reaction toa wind coming through?"'andIwondered abouttheterm

'ill wind" 

[Jock]

Hi guys

I appreciate all your answers but I am not much of a reader and it's hard for me to get my mind around reams of text. Could somebody please explain this to me like I'm a brand new believer?

Thanks

Jock  :dontknow:

[Jock]

Rose, that was a good post about the tongue.

All I know is this. If we minister in Love, we minister life

If we minister in anger or hatred, we minister death.

Words are very powerful, so we need to check our hearts that we are in the Spirit and speaking the truth in Love, especially towards the brethren.


Jock.    :winkgrin:

[Jock]

Was just thinking, the Fire of God that refines and consumes, I've known that fire on and off throughout my entire life. When I look back a ways, I really am a totally different person now. God has arranged the whole thing!

Jock.

[Jock]

Prophecy buffs always seem to read Revelation and the Prophets as future events. No doubt some of them are but the Word of God is working in us NOW! It's not Christ future or Christ past, it's Christ right now.

Just some thoughts

Jock

[Tom]

Hi all,

The LOF is only mentioned in the last part or revelation. It has to do with the 2nd resurrection and the white throne judgment. IMO when the second death occurs there will be no more LOF and it will have been ended with the new heavens and new earth IMO. Just wondering since LOF is often directly associated with the second death. Second death is the end of any need for judgment or fire. It will then be that GOD ID ALL IN ALL. :Peace2:

The lake of fire is the second death.

"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

God will be all in all at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished and those condemned to the the second death are vivified.

"22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:22-28)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Tom]

Hi guys

I appreciate all your answers but I am not much of a reader and it's hard for me to get my mind around reams of text. Could somebody please explain this to me like I'm a brand new believer?

Thanks

Jock  :dontknow:

God is love, and God created all to manifest his love.

The church is wrong about saying God plans to torment or annihilate unbelievers.

The inspired written word of God says it is only by the grace of God that some believe.

"8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

The word of God clearly states that all are reconciled to God through Christ.

"and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:20)

That means universal reconciliation.

God is the savior of all mankind.

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

When somebody perishes, is lost, or suffers destruction, it is only until all will be vivified because death will be abolished, and God's ultimate goal is to be all in all.

"20 Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Jock]

Thanks Tom.

A question for you, do you believe that we are living out the judgement here in this life? That the chastening we experience from the Lord's hand will find it's fullness at the Great White Throne?

Jock