article on the greek of matt 25:46

[marie glen]

To me the separation of the goats and sheep, and the wheat and tares (to be burned) is at His return.. not a die and go immediately to heaven or hell.. the goats are gathered to Armageddon, and the sheep gathered to Him (at His return)...

I'm really not so sure any humans will go to the lake of fire.. and sometimes I believe it is death, as in non-life. But I also believe Judgment 'Day' will last roughly 500 years (because of the spacing of the ancient fall holy days, if His 1st advent fulfilled the spring ones, then surely, His long 2nd advent will fulfill the fall ones).

What does it require that one's name be written in the Book of Life? to believe.. and to truly believe and be convinced.. After one has experienced being resurrected from their grave (at the 2nd resurrection, even if they do rise "still in their sins" / imperfection, "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and outer darkness") and after also experiencing, living through and witnessing a long day of the review of all things (all human history in all its terribleness).. after all that, who's not going to "believe".. And it is the last verse of the chapter :smile:

Is Yahweh Almighty not perfect? How can perfection make any mistakes? How can Perfect lose anything? Let alone 3/4's of humanity. He can only be perfect.. or He too would fade.. surely?

And since He is perfect the 'end' result of all this (surely?) can only be the utterly best end result possible..
He is 100% perfect, and 100% Good.. any doctrine which contradicts this simply (imo:) cannot be true..

I'm sure it's been pointed out gehenna was the city dump where even criminal's bodies were burned.. hence "better to throw your hand there than to harm one of these little ones" (context). Hades, place of the dead.. imo, is still the grave, as is the dust of the grave the lower part of the earth.. And He went via the Spirit and preached to those who were perishing while the ark was being built, makes more sense than His doing it later.. Tartarus, metaphor for deep darkness and chains of, may imply, to some, underground chambers of levels of hell.. (Egypt, Plato,  views, and 'apocalypse of Peter', and Dante). But "In sheol there is neither thought nor doing" Eccles 9:10. "Oh that you would hide me in sheol" (vs?) "All meet in sheol" (vs?)

When Israel sacrificed live babes into fire, Yahweh said "such a thing never rose up or came from My heart!"
But, in summary, God's Word says He is All Mighty.. all powerful.. lose 3/4's of humanity to Satan? :laughing7: :girlheart:

'Hell' blasphemes His holy character every day.. and so does annihilation-ism, imo :gsmile:

[marie glen]

..this is an excellent short article I think fits into this thread (?) - http://www.urqa.com/15_bombs.html

[ps]

oops sorry

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

I have looked at your link (think I had read it before) and I believe he has made at least one specific error (regarding Mt. 23.36 referring to 'these same things' as Mt. 24.34.)

Perhaps of related interest to you (others?), some overlap, at least one disagreement I think (about garbage dump):
http://blog.bibleplaces.com/2011/04/myth-of-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna.html
and the previous also links to the following
http://blog.bibleplaces.com/2011/04/fires-of-gehenna-views-of-scholars.html

I have some additional observations as well related to content of your linked article, but it is likely to be some time before I can present them.

[eaglesway]

The article I presented was to open possibilities. I am familiar with the objections to it, but the lnks you provide are no more authoritative than the one I posted.

What you are missing here is that I am not interested in debating you.

You still have not responded to the verses I posted that clearly state that all will be gathered into one in Christ, that all will be reconciled, that all will be made alive, that God will be all in all.

This is why I said before that it appears to me that you are just trolling the ET view and not interested in substantive discssion of the scriptures.

If you are not here to learn and consider possibilities, than you are in the wrong place, because we are not here to have debates with folks whose minds are made up to the point they will not address the issue through the scriptures. Matthew 25:46 is not the only verse on the topic. Meanings and messages are determined, among spiritual persons, by topical context using examples from throughout the scriptures.

So I will ask you again, "Why are you here?" If you are here for pointless debate- which you said in the OP you were not, I dont get it :o)

[trettep]

Hi PS.

Aionios doesn't speak to an endpoint at all.  It simply refers to a continuing point.  It's an adjective as you probably are already aware.  It means something that CONTINUES beyond the age boundary without an reference to when it ends.   It doesn't address the end or length of the duration beyond the age boundary at all.

So aionios punishment would be punishment that exists in the age and will continue to exist beyond the age.  The same with aionios Life.  This means it would be Life that exist within the age and continues to exist beyond the age.  But it is interesting in that this is within the context of the experience of the age.

For example, if I one is said to have aionios life and they die it doesn't mean that the Life they have is continuing while that person is in fact dead but, to the life of that person - it continues beyond the age as they are re-acquainted with that life.

[ps]

marie glen,

Some of my favorite people are atheist.. My brother, one of my veRy favorite people is atheist. I was thinking just today, could I ever conceive of happiness, if I were to know he is somewhere writhing in torment for ever? or if he was simply 'lost' and no longer existed?

Of course the first scenario is the worse.. And, if it were to occur, could I really love a 'god' who carried out such a thing? A 'god' such as that, would sure sap a lot of joy and peace out of the "kingdom"... :faint:

You may want to consider whether you have fully counted the (possible) cost of being Jesus disciple.

Luke 14:25..33
v25 "Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
v26 ""If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
v27 ""Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
...
v33 ""So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

and the results...

Matt 19
v27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?"
v28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
v29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

Mark 10
v28 'Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."
v29 'Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake,
v30 "but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life."

Luke 18
v28 Peter said, "Behold, we have left [fn]our own homes and followed You."
v29 And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
v30 "who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

[darryl]

marie glen,

Some of my favorite people are atheist.. My brother, one of my veRy favorite people is atheist. I was thinking just today, could I ever conceive of happiness, if I were to know he is somewhere writhing in torment for ever? or if he was simply 'lost' and no longer existed?

Of course the first scenario is the worse.. And, if it were to occur, could I really love a 'god' who carried out such a thing? A 'god' such as that, would sure sap a lot of joy and peace out of the "kingdom"... :faint:

You may want to consider whether you have fully counted the (possible) cost of being Jesus disciple.

Luke 14:25..33
v25 "Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
v26 ""If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
v27 ""Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
...
v33 ""So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

and the results...

Matt 19
v27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?"
v28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
v29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

Mark 10
v28 'Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."
v29 'Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake,
v30 "but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life."

Luke 18
v28 Peter said, "Behold, we have left [fn]our own homes and followed You."
v29 And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
v30 "who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

yes, there's Bible passages which speak of  exclusivity ...some human beings are 'in'...most people are 'out'....at least on the surface it looks like that...dig a little deeper and you might just find another perspective on all this. :dsunny:

[darryl]

So for simplicity just assume the world ends January 1, 2022.
The holy people instantly start the eternal life and enter the kingdom.
The other people are sent to the lake. They stay there for a while and then join the holy people.

Where is anything written that anyone sent to the 'lake of fire'/punishment comes out and/or join those in the kingdom (rest)?  Is this not going beyond what is written, warned against elsewhere, though not specifically on this topic?  And the (absolute?) denial of entry into rest is mentioned in Ps 95:11, Act 7:42, 13:18, Heb 3:11,18,  Heb 4:3,5,11, and similar displeasure with unbelievers in 1Cor 10:1-12.

well, what of the passages that say God desires ALL be saved ?...doesn't God get His desire ?...is the desire of a man to reject God stronger than Gods desire to save him ?..I think not.

[ps]

Consider,
(apologize for going specifically off-topic to the main thread subject, but since WW and EW have done so, I hope it is acceptable, I've already done it elsewhere in responses to them as well.)

If men are to be eternally tormented, I would think God would be more clear about that in his usage of words without leaving it so open for interpretation, where we have to put puzzle pieces together an reach an opinion from it.

that it may not be that fuzzy.

There are various passages I have not seen much mention of on this site (although I certainly have not read everything.)

Note that the definitions of the words wrath/perish/destroy/destruction don't seem to be subject to the same uncertainty/vagueness regarding corrective vs other, as some think that of punishment (kolasi-) is vague/mistranslated.

The time period may not be spelled out in many of these, but in various of the passages seems contrasted and coincident with those entering (and remaining-in) inheritance/life/rest/salvation.

wrath G3709
perish-, des-troy/-truction G684 and related
destruction G3639

Jn 3:36b YLT "...and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him."

Rom 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath G3709 and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,"
Rom 2:8 "but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation."
Rom 5:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"
Eph 5:6 "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."
Col 3:6 "For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come [fn]upon the sons of disobedience,"
(next believers avoiddance of wrath)
1 Th 1:10 "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come."
1 Th 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
comparison to past, where much of Israel was eliminated
Heb 3:11 "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
Heb 4:3 "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world."
Rev 6:16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Rev 11:18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants ..., and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Mat 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Phl 1:28b "...which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God."
1Th 5:3 'While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape."
(Is that 'eternal' temporary, as some want, or unending, as in the kingdom of Luke 1:33 where the presence of the Lord will be?)
2Th 1:9 "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power"
Heb 10:39 "But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

and some others, but hopefully that is enough to support my assertion.

[ps]

well, what of the passages that say God desires ALL be saved ?...doesn't God get His desire ?

God desired to lead all Israel out of Egypt into the promised land, but not all made it.

This is referred to in NT as a warning to believers, one found in 1 Cor 10:1-6
"1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was [fn]Christ.
5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved."

...is the desire of a man to reject God stronger than Gods desire to save him ?

Perhaps. 

The Pharisees and lawyers rejected God's purpose/counsel/will.
Luke 7:30 NASB "But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John."

..I think not.

in Luke 7:30, purpose G1012 boule

Thayer's includes
"esp. of the purpose of God respecting the salvation of men through Christ"
and
"all the contents of the divine plan"

Vines includes
"boule is the result of determination"

Did the Pharisees and lawyers successfully resist what God had determined should occur?

It doesn't sound like they were expected to, from Jesus's comments to the Pharisees and lawyers in
Luke 11:43-51, excerpts
v 50 "so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation,"
v 51 "from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation."

Perhaps Nicodemus and others that came by night, though of that generation, repented and submitted, avoiding those charges.

[ps]

I have to disagree with any "likely" interpretation of kolassin as not being corrective. The word only occurs twice, and whether it means "cut off" or to "prune" is largely a matter of interpretation and context.

How only twice?  I pointed out several others in Septuagint canon.  There are many more in apochryphal septuagint books.

Also, one has to look into the Hebrew mindset to understand these thoughts as they proceed from YHWH through Messiah and the prophets and apostles.

I looked at the link you presented in a later post, and assume you had that content in mind with the above statement.
Here I will briefly note, that Moses spoke of sending another servant (Deut 18:15), and they were to follow him.
Jesus is recorded as having indicated he was the one Moses spoke of (Jn 5:46).
Could it be that Jesus in speaking of the danger of Gehenna for individuals was clarifying the possibility, much as he did in clarifying what constituted murder or adultery (thoughts), relative to what the OT had to say on the topic.
Mt 5:21-22 apparently being his first mention, according to that article, and referring to an individual man being in 'danger', not a nation.
I think there is also the possibility that the general awareness of Gehenna was well known, from at least the book of Enoch, with which they were likely well acquainted.
This article covers that likelihood, and may be in line with your views as well:
https://jesuswithoutbaggage.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/hell-and-enoch-in-the-new-testament-writers/

Looking at John 15:1,2 Jesus is the Vine and we are the branches. If a branch bears no fruit, it withers, is cut-off(pruned or purged- kathairei), and gathered to be burned.

In John 15:1-2 Jesus was speaking to, and of, those who were already following him.

So what now? Are believers to be gathered for eternal burning too?

Perhaps, depending on their level of obedience.

What do you think of
Matt 13:30 - Was it possible for the tares to become wheat?  Why would the landowner be concerned about rooting up the wheat, if it could be reclaimed later?  Could it be reclaimed later, if it was uprooted?
Luke 12:46 - the servant (of the master) was to be 'cut in pieces' and assigned a place with the unbelievers and similarly Matt 24:51
John 3:36b - those who don't obey abide in the wrath of God, YLT "and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him."

But in 1 Corinthians 3:15-17 we see another view of a believer and fire...

12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


So we see here that a believer can be saved, "yet so as through fire"and the "loss" is reward, and  not a sentence of eternal damnation.

Fire is something we go "through" in order to be purged.

Yes, the 'believer' can be saved.  Those who wanted to follow, or were following, Jesus... those who actually have the 'foundation' of believing in Jesus death and resurrection and following him, the foundation which Paul intended to be established with the corinthians.

Unbelievers do not have that foundation.

Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts. 2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.Mal 3

Those who believe are going through fire now... but Jesus said, "Every man will be salted with fire"(Mk 9 & Lk 12)

(I assume you mean Lk 14:34, and there's also Matt 5:13.)
In all three larger passages, it appears Jesus is speaking to those were following/pursuing him - not to those who wanted nothing to do with him.

The key word in Mt 25:46 is "aionion" because no matter how we see kolassin, the key question is "how long". If torment/punishment lasts forever then the scriptures are broken because I can point to at least 8 verses that assert all will be saved.

Romans 11:32 and 36.

Yes, he also led all of Israel out of Egypt, but they did not all enter the promised land. 1 Cor 10:1-6

1 Corinthians 15:22 and 28

Rev 20:5 "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed."
But then what eventually happens?
Rev 20:15 "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.", the second death.

Ephesians 1:9-11

I see this as speaking of 'all' those whom the Father has given to Jesus (John 6:44), the ones who will be drawn (John 12:32)?
The 'all' that Jesus will draw to himself, is necessarily limited by those the Father has given to him.

Colossians 1:15-21

Again, expressing the Father's desire, as with Israel in Egypt - He does want all, and He initiates, but those He is leading must follow - or, again, as with the 'all' He led out of Egypt, there will be those whose names are not found worthy, are not found written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 John 2:1-3

Who was John addressing?  Believers, or unbelievers?  Believers, isn't it?

Romans 5:18

Look at the larger surrounding passage.

Rom 5:6b, 'Christ died for the ungodly', yes allows for all of them, providing reconciliation.

Justification/reconciliation/redemption is apparently accomplished for all mankind past/present/future, and is a prerequisite to/for salvation...

But is not itself salvation...

Rom 5:10 'For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.',

the reconciliation is by his death, and that apparently provided to all, but the salvation is by his life (after his resurrection), something separate.

But that salvation would seem per Jn 6:44,65 to be to those whom the Father draws, grants - not necessarily everyone.

Ephesians 4:7

Who was Paul addressing? Believers, or unbelievers?  Believers, isn't it?

Rev 5:13

That does sound like every'thing' will worship - as in the 'stones will cry out' and 'the creation groans' - but does that include people?

Rev 21:5

But what of Rev 21:7, "He who overcomes" "will inherit these things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son."
While v5 speaks of 'all things new', the new things appear to only be inherited, v7, by those who (have) overcome, or as
spoken of elsewhere, those who endure to the 'end' are those to be saved, Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:19

And all those verses and more lead to Phillipians 2:9-11

And Isaiah 45:23, and Rom 14:11.
But what precedes Isaiah 45:23, v22 'Turn to me and be saved', is it not those who will turn, that will bow, and Rom 14:11, followed by v12 'So then each of US' - Paul was addressing supposed believers in Rome.

Do anyone really think God is forcing all those people to bow their knee and confess His Lordship just before He throws them into eternal torment? And why?

No, it appears from Isaiah, where the passage apparently originates, and Romans, that it is speaking of those who choose to 'turn...and be saved'.

I thought the reason they are "going to hell" in the first place is because God so respects free will that He has let them choose their horrible fate?

So why the big "force your knee down, I told you so" thing at the end?

I suspect this is referring to those who have chosen to follow/serve, but even
Should it be as you perceive, if that is what God wants, are you in a position to question God concerning it? 
Are you the potter, or the clay?
Are you superior to Job?

My answer to that question is that every knee shall bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER ...

and if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart He was raised from the dead you will be saved (Romans 10)

But, 'if you confess', 'and believe in your heart', being addressed to those who presumably believe, those who receive this message, before Jesus returns.
After Jesus return and by the judgement, there is unlikely to be any question remaining about him requiring faith.  Everyone will see and know, having been resurrected from the dead.  The opportunity to 'confess' and 'believe' by faith (of things 'not seen', Heb 11:1) no longer remains, the 'things' will be seen - they will have been resurrected.
Also John 20:29b YLT "happy those not having seen, and having believed."

So in Phil 2:9-11 we see all being saved through the subjection, not destroyed because of it, same as in 1 Cor 15:28

28And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

And as we see in 1 Cor 15:25,26 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

If death has been abolished, and God has become all in all, how can there be an everlasting second death?

It is the first death, the one initiated by Adam's sin, that is the enemy of Christ, and that he is overcoming.
Rev 20:5a records this is to occur "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed." with the completion of that being further recorded in Rev 20:13.

The second death appears to not take place until after the first death has been defeated, and it is only those who are
part of the first resurrection, who are known to not be subject to the power of the second death, Rev 20:6a "Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power".
There seems to be no further guarantee to anyone that the power of the second death can be overcome - it will apparently be subject to what is determined in the judgement, Rev 20:11-15 v12 'books were opened; and another book was opened, which is of life and the [formerly] dead were judged ... according to their deeds [in the bookS]', but then v15 "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."  the lake of fire being the second death.

The salvation Jesus provides is from the first death, not the second death.

I Cor 15 22-28 clearly shows the idea "Jesus being exalted in order to seal the damned" to be a false interpretation, as does Eph 4:7 and our Lord's own words in John 12:32

'If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me".

The reason for Jesus being exalted over all things and receiving "all authority on heaven and earth" is so that He can draw all things into His reign of life- "death is swallowed up by immortality"

He says, "Behold I am making all things new! Write down these words, they are faithful and true!"(Rev 21)

I think you misunderstand to what the 'all' in many cases is referring.

Consider
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
and
John 6:65 "And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

The 'all' that Jesus will draw in John 12:32, is apparently limited to those the Father draws, and those the Father grants, to be drawn, John 6:44 'No one can come... unless the Father...draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

[ps]

You still have not responded to the verses I posted that clearly state that all will be gathered into one in Christ, that all will be reconciled, that all will be made alive, that God will be all in all.

But, I did respond, before the comments of your post this post is quoting.

See the last entry (at least for me) on page two of this thread.  (I don't currently see how to obtain a direct link, but it appears likely to be message # 198788, if you know how to make use of that. [edit: found it: http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198788/#msg198788])

(Unless you are referring to the '8 verses' post, which I have also since responded to, also before this post - since you mention the question 'why are you here' next, I assume not that '8 verses' post.)

So I will ask you again, "Why are you here?" If you are here for pointless debate- which you said in the OP you were not, I dont get it :o)

That same post of mine also answered that question.

[darryl]

.

The salvation Jesus provides is from the first death, not the second death.

nice try..but you are adding to the word of God..the Bible makes no such distinction..it plainly states 'Death will be abolished'..it does not say 'the first death will be abolished'...therefore 'Death' in all it's totality, whether first or second or whatever...will be abolished..there is simply no way around it.Death, in all it's forms,whether first or second,  will be abolished.

[darryl]

You still have not responded to the verses I posted that clearly state that all will be gathered into one in Christ, that all will be reconciled, that all will be made alive, that God will be all in all.

But, I did respond, before the comments of your post this post is quoting.

See the last entry (at least for me) on page two of this thread.  (I don't currently see how to obtain a direct link, but it appears likely to be message # 198788, if you know how to make use of that.)

(Unless you are referring to the '8 verses' post, which I have also since responded to, also before this post - since you mention the question 'why are you here' next, I assume not that '8 verses' post.)

So I will ask you again, "Why are you here?" If you are here for pointless debate- which you said in the OP you were not, I dont get it :o)

That same post of mine also answered that question.

Hi, ps...re- you saying the 2nd death wont be abolished...nice try..but you are adding to the word of God..the Bible makes no such distinction..

the Bible  plainly states 'Death will be abolished'..it does not say 'the first death will be abolished'...therefore 'Death' in all it's totality, whether first or second or whatever...will be abolished..

there is simply no way around it.Death, in all it's forms,whether first or second,  will be abolished.

[darryl]

Hello, ps. Regarding 'kolasis' I have found a passage in the Septuagint where 'kolasis' is used and it definitely means 'correction' not retributive vindictive punishment.

Ezekial 44 9-14
9 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary. 10"But the Levites who went far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the punishment for their iniquity. 11"Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the house and ministering in the house; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister to them'.

12"Because they ministered to them before their idols and became a stumbling block of iniquity to the house of Israel, therefore I have sworn against them," declares the Lord GOD, "that they shall bear the punishment ( kolasis ) for their iniquity.

13 'And they shall not come near to Me to serve as a priest to Me, nor come near to any of My holy things, to the things that are most holy; but they will bear their shame and their abominations which they have committed.14"Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the house, of all its service and of all that shall be done in it'.

So, what is this 'punishment' for these backslidden priests ?. Not death, not torment or torture. No, Yahweh punishes the Levites for their participation in idolatry by not allowing them to act as priests in the new temple.

  Ezekiel 44:13 ►
13 'And they shall not come near to Me to serve as a priest to Me, nor come near to any of My holy things, to the things that are most holy; but they will bear their shame and their abominations which they have committed.

'Kolasis' definitely means 'correction' here (to teach these priests the error of their ways)  , not retributive vindictive punishment.

Please note these sinful priests were still allowed to keep 'charge of the house'.Verse 14"Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the house, of all its service and of all that shall be done in it'.

Yahweh is merciful and there is purpose to His corrective chastisement.  :dsunny:

[darryl]

the following passage answers the objections of  'ps' decisively...2 Peter 3:9  says  ( Strong's definitions included) , ' The Lord is not (Gk= 'ou'= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Gk= 'me'= not, not at all, none at all ) willing ( the Greek word for 'willing' is = 'boúlomai' ="resolutely plan",planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Gk= 'tis'= anyone at all )  to perish, but everyone (Gk ='pantas' = all, everyone)  to come to repentance'.

The Greek word 'boulomai' is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is 'resolutely planning' for all to come to repentance.

So, God does not 'merely desire' all to be saved, He is resolutely planning toward all being saved. ( What does repentance lead to ?..it leads to salvation) .

Therefore, what Almighty God 'resolutely plans', MUST happen.It's actually almost blasphemy to say God will fail to achieve that which He is resolutely planning.

Therefore ALL will ultimately be redeemed.If they are not all redeemed, God is not capable of getting what He wants to get. Honestly, people like our friend 'ps' who believe millions will be eternally lost,who believe not all will ultimately be saved, are simply not believing what God plainly says  in His word.

The actual mechanics of it, how it will exactly come about..I do not really know, although there are 'hints' in the Bible about how this Universal Reconciliation will take place...but how can we know exactly how God will redeem all ?..I / we  are not almighty God...but HE knows how He will ultimately redeem the entire human race..I, we, just need to trust His word and the fact that He WILL do it...we need to truly believe that 'all things are possible with God'.

By the way, if we are going to talk about so called 'free will' I must say that the Lord's will and determination to save somebody is infinitely greater than that persons will to reject Him.

[darryl]

hello again, ps....please do not forget the importance of the Septuagint in these discussions.

The Septuagint is critically important in understanding how the people to whom the New Testament was written understood its teachings.  For it was the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament (Greek being the universal language at that time), in use by the Jews of Jesus time.

  Of the 459 times that the Septuagint uses aionios and aion to translate a Hebrew word – 455 times that word is olam.  So its safe to say that the definition of aionios will be similar to the definition of olam.  And we have seen that as nouns both aion and olam generally refer to an age, or as adjectives – age long.

We will now look at some instances of how the Septuagint uses aion and aionios to translate olam.  Note: There are literally hundreds of verses that I could use here, the following, is but a tiny sampling.  If anyone has a Bible Study program with The Hebrew Old Testament and the Septuagint, you could easily look up every reference for yourself.  In some instances, after I quote the verse, I will add a comment below it to point out that the idea of it meaning forever simply doesn't work.

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old (aionios), men of renown."  (Genesis 6:4)

Mighty men of eternity?

"Those from among you will rebuild the ancient (aionios) ruins; you will raise up the age-old (aionios) foundations; and you will be called the repairer of the breach, the restorer of the streets in which to dwell."  (Isaiah 58:12)

How do you rebuild an eternal ruin?

"For My people have forgotten Me, They burn incense to worthless gods and they have stumbled from their ways, from the ancient (aionios) paths, to walk in bypaths, not on a highway, to make their land a desolation, an object of perpetual (aionios) hissing; everyone who passes by it will be astonished And shake his head." (Jeremiah 18:15,16)

"You shall also observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt; therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as a permanent (aionios) ordinance." (Exodus 12:17)

"The priestly sons of Aaron, moreover, shall blow the trumpets; and this shall be for you a perpetual (aionios) statute throughout your generations." (Numbers 10:8)

These all obviously are not still happening.

"The prophets who were before me and before you from ancient (aion) times prophesied against many lands and against great kingdoms, of war and of calamity and of pestilence."  (Jeremiah 28:8)

How were these long dead prophets from eternal times?

"I descended to the roots of the mountains.  The earth with its bars was around me forever (aion), but You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God."  (Jonah 2:6)

Jonah says here that he was in the belly of the whale "forever," but we know it was only for 3 days.

"Behold, these are the wicked; and at ease forever (aion), they have increased in wealth."  (Psalm 73:12)

We know that the Bible also talks about the wicked's prosperity coming to an end and that they will be judged for their deeds, so they cannot be at ease forever.

"No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of their descendants, even to the tenth generation, they shall not enter the assembly of the LORD forever (aion)."  (Deuteronomy 23:3)

Here "forever" only lasts until the 10th generation.

"But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, 'I will not go up until the child is weaned; then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD and stay there forever (aion).'"  (1 Samuel 1:22)

Samuel did not live in the temple forever.

"Therefore, the leprosy of Naaman shall cling to you and to your descendants forever (ton aion). So he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow..."  (2 Kings 5:27)

Perhaps this is still true, perhaps Gehazi's descendents to this day still all suffer from leprosy, but I doubt it.  Leprosy has mostly been eradicated.

"Remember the former things long (aion) past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me," (Isaiah 46:9)

How can they be 'forever' past?

"For the enemy has persecuted my soul; he has crushed my life to the ground; he has made me dwell in dark places, like those who have long (aion) been dead."  (Psalm 143:3)

It is not possible for them to have been dead forever.  The same exact phrase is found in Lamentations 3:6.

"You, O LORD, rule forever (aion); Your throne is from generation to generation." (Lamentations 5:19)

This is a form of poetry known as Hebrew Parallelism.  It is when you say something, and then repeat it, but with different words.  The second line is equal to first.  So here "forever" (or aion) means the same thing as "from generation to generation."

"then you shall take an awl and pierce it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever (aion)."  (Deuteronomy 15:17)

He will really only be able to be a servant until he dies.

David wrote in a Psalm about God's blessings upon him as a king.  One of the blessings was for his length of life to be extended.

"He asked life of You, You gave it to him, length of days forever and ever (eis aiona aionos."  (Psalm 21:4)

But we know that David didn't live forever; he died.  We also know that nobody's earthly life will last forever.

Speaking to the nation of Judah God says,

"I will put an everlasting (aionios) reproach on you and an everlasting (aionios) humiliation which will not be forgotten."  (Jeremiah 32:40)

But God also says later on that,

"after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, all of Israel will be saved."  (Romans 11:25,26.)

So their "eternal" reproach and humiliation is only for a limited duration.

Speaking about the sun, moon and stars in Psalm 148:1-6 David declares that,

"[God] has also established them forever and ever (ton aiona tou aionos – to the age of the ages); He has made a decree which will not pass away."

And yet the Bible says that all these things will pass away one day (see Luke 21:33; Hebrews 1:11,12 and 2 Peter 3:10).

The Hebrew and Greek languages use these words (aion, aionios and olam) to speak of 'days of old,' (Deuteronomy 32:7; Isaiah 63:9; Amos 9:11 and etc...) 'generations of old,' (Isaiah 51:9) 'people of old,' (Ezekiel 26:20) not to mention that David's seed is said to endure "forever," (Psalm 89:4) his throne is to be "forever" and his house is to continue "forever;" (2 Samuel 7:16; 1 Kings 2:45 and etc...) the Passover is also declared to endure "forever."  (Exodus 12:24)

In Isaiah 32:14, the forts and towers were to be "dens forever, until the spirit is poured upon us."  The smoke of Idumea was to ascend forever, (Isaiah 34:10) though it no longer rises.  The priesthood of Aaron was to exist forever (Exodus 40:15; Numbers 25:13; Leviticus 16:34) and continue through everlasting duration; but Christ's priesthood replaced it.  Solomon's temple was to last forever (1 Chronicles 17:12), although it has long since ceased to be; and was really replaced by the new temple of our body.

As I said above, there are literally hundreds of verses that we could look at, which we don't have time for, but I think that what little I have shown gives you a good sense of how the Septuagint uses the words aion and aionios.

This is how the Greek speaking Jews in the time of Jesus understood these words.  Not in the sense of endlessness, but in the sense of an age,belonging to an age, or something 'hidden' or 'just over the horizon' or even' just over the horizon and further on'.

Here's a pertinent point /question...wouldn't the Jewish and Greek speaking Christians of the early church  been mighty confused if 'aionios' meant something to do with 'age' in the Greek Septuagint Old Testament but meant 'eternal' and 'never- ending' in the Greek New Testament ?...when did this supposed change in meaning take place ?...the ECTers claim that the meaning of 'aionios' changed to mean 'eternal' but there's absolutely no evidence of this.

Why wont the proponents of ECT like 'ps' take into account the crucial evidence of the Greek translation of the OT?..the Septuagint ?.

Just goes to show how biased they are, not to even consider this crucial evidence.

This evidence is the death knell for the idea that 'aionios' always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament.

[ps]

the following passage answers the objections of  'ps' decisively...2 Peter 3:9  says  ( Strong's definitions included) , ' The Lord is not (Gk= 'ou'= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Gk= 'me'= not, not at all, none at all ) willing ( the Greek word for 'willing' is = 'boúlomai' ="resolutely plan",planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Gk= 'tis'= anyone at all )  to perish, but everyone (Gk ='pantas' = all, everyone)  to come to repentance'.

The Greek word 'boulomai' is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is 'resolutely planning' for all to come to repentance.

So, God does not 'merely desire' all to be saved, He is resolutely planning toward all being saved. ( What does repentance lead to ?..it leads to salvation) .

Therefore, what Almighty God 'resolutely plans', MUST happen.It's actually almost blasphemy to say God will fail to achieve that which He is resolutely planning.

Regarding 2 Pet 3:9, consider all of 2 Pet 3:2-15 and earlier comments here http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617.

Regarding God's will/counsel/purpose being rejectable, see Luke 7:30,  and earlier comments here http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198848/#msg198848.

Regarding septuagint (your next post) and Peter and John in Acts as well, I did consider them, and apparently my idea of correction being to restore one to position/capabilities they previously had, and your idea, whatever that may be, are different, as neither Jeremiah, nor Peter and co. were going to be restored from death to the life from which they were being punished, nor the priests restored to a position of coming into the presence of God.  You may note that elsewhere a different word (G3811) is used for 'punish' in connection with being released/disciplined/corrected, a few being Luke 23:16,22, 1Cor11:32, 2Cor6:9, Rev 3:19.

It seems likely to me the Council did want to 'cut off' Peter and John's lives as with Jeremiah and his enemies, not 'correct' them.  They only 'threatened' them, when they found themselves unable to cut them off due to fear of the people.

[ps]

hello again, ps....please do not forget the importance of the Septuagint in these discussions.

Why wont the proponents of ECT like 'ps' take into account the crucial evidence of the Greek translation of the OT?..the Septuagint ?.

Just goes to show how biased they are, not to even consider this crucial evidence.

I have not forgotten it, and have discussed my observations elsewhere in this thread.

Your conclusions, and apparent notions of 'correction', seemingly differ from mine.

So be it.

This evidence is the death knell for the idea that 'aionios' always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament.[/b]

I do not think I claimed anywhere that aionio- "always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament".

I do however claim that it could readily have sometimes indicated unending, and earlier showed how that was likely very true for the kingdom in Matt 25:46 (Luke 1:33). [http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617]

I will also note that you like to point out how 'eternity' might not be eternal, but claim that 'death' is all death, apparently ignoring various contexts of usage,  such as the limitation of 'all' in 2 Pet 3:2-15, where the contextual scope was that of 'all' before the 'promise' of Jesus coming, in that context his second coming (the millennial reign), also previously discussed in one of my earlier posts [http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617].

One other example of such non-inclusive scope can be seen in Luke 11:50-51, where Jesus spoke of the blood of the prophets being charged against that generation.  But the larger context suggests it was probably limited to Pharisees and lawyers - and yet there were apparently some among them some who believed, coming to him at night.

The truth will likely be known by both of us with certainty at the end of the millennial reign.

[trettep]

Hi PS.

Aionios doesn't speak to an endpoint at all.  It simply refers to a continuing point.  It's an adjective as you probably are already aware.  It means something that CONTINUES beyond the age boundary without an reference to when it ends.   It doesn't address the end or length of the duration beyond the age boundary at all.

So aionios punishment would be punishment that exists in the age and will continue to exist beyond the age.  The same with aionios Life.  This means it would be Life that exist within the age and continues to exist beyond the age.  But it is interesting in that this is within the context of the experience of the age.

For example, if I one is said to have aionios life and they die it doesn't mean that the Life they have is continuing while that person is in fact dead but, to the life of that person - it continues beyond the age as they are re-acquainted with that life.

By the way, my understanding of this definition of aionios is consistent with Greek Linguist LENNEP.

[trettep]

Hi PS.

Aionios doesn't speak to an endpoint at all.  It simply refers to a continuing point.  It's an adjective as you probably are already aware.  It means something that CONTINUES beyond the age boundary without an reference to when it ends.   It doesn't address the end or length of the duration beyond the age boundary at all.

So aionios punishment would be punishment that exists in the age and will continue to exist beyond the age.  The same with aionios Life.  This means it would be Life that exist within the age and continues to exist beyond the age.  But it is interesting in that this is within the context of the experience of the age.

For example, if I one is said to have aionios life and they die it doesn't mean that the Life they have is continuing while that person is in fact dead but, to the life of that person - it continues beyond the age as they are re-acquainted with that life.

By the way, my understanding of this definition of aionios is consistent with Greek Linguist LENNEP.

Hey Trettep, I know you from one forum or the other, can't remember, you recognize me? Maybe I was Jacob Rising.

Yes, I believe I remember the name Jacob Rising.  Not sure which forum though.

[darryl]

, nor the priests restored to a position of coming into the presence of God. 

Ezekial 44: 14. "Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the house, of all its service and of all that shall be done in it'.

I note that God was very gracious toward these wicked priests and they were still able to act as priests in the new temple, to perform very important spiritual and religious duties in and of the Holy Temple...however, they were not allowed to enter the most Holy place and minister directly to God

God did not kill them or order them killed (cut off) or flogged or tortured (unlike what those believing in 'eternal torment' say God is going to do to the so called  'eternally lost'.)...

in fact God appointed these backslidden priests with the all important task of running the Holy Temple !.

yes, they were not able to enter the Holy of Holies but the Bible does not say this was to be a permanent condition..there was still a possibility they were fully restored at a later date ...

at any rate, the priests plainly suffered, at the most, non physical 'chastisement' not vindictive  physical 'capital punishment' for their wickedness.

This passage ( Ezekial 44: 9-14 ) fully supports 'kolasis' as meaning 'chastisement' or 'correction' with the idea of teaching the perpetrator (in this case the wicked priests )  a lesson .   This passage plainly does not support the idea of 'kolasis' meaning harsh vindictive punishment for the benefit or pleasure of the one meting out the punishment.

[darryl]

Regarding 2 Pet 3:9, consider all of 2 Pet 3:2-15 and earlier comments here http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617.

Regarding God's will/counsel/purpose being rejectable, see Luke 7:30,  and earlier comments here http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198848/#msg198848.

you still have not addressed the use of the Greek word 'boulomai' ('resolutely plan' ) in 2 Peter 3:9 and how the word reflects on the utter certainty that God will get His way and ALL will ultimately come to repentance and not perish.

[darryl]

hello again, ps....please do not forget the importance of the Septuagint in these discussions.

Why wont the proponents of ECT like 'ps' take into account the crucial evidence of the Greek translation of the OT?..the Septuagint ?.

Just goes to show how biased they are, not to even consider this crucial evidence.

I have not forgotten it, and have discussed my observations elsewhere in this thread.

Your conclusions, and apparent notions of 'correction', seemingly differ from mine.

So be it.

This evidence is the death knell for the idea that 'aionios' always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament.[/b]

I do not think I claimed anywhere that aionio- "always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament".

I do however claim that it could readily have sometimes indicated unending, and earlier showed how that was likely very true for the kingdom in Matt 25:46 (Luke 1:33). [http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617]

I will also note that you like to point out how 'eternity' might not be eternal, but claim that 'death' is all death, apparently ignoring various contexts of usage,  such as the limitation of 'all' in 2 Pet 3:2-15, where the contextual scope was that of 'all' before the 'promise' of Jesus coming, in that context his second coming (the millennial reign), also previously discussed in one of my earlier posts [http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617].

One other example of such non-inclusive scope can be seen in Luke 11:50-51, where Jesus spoke of the blood of the prophets being charged against that generation.  But the larger context suggests it was probably limited to Pharisees and lawyers - and yet there were apparently some among them some who believed, coming to him at night.

The truth will likely be known by both of us with certainty at the end of the millennial reign.

ahhh !, bingo !..you finally admit it. 'Aionios' does not always mean 'eternal' in the Bible...so, how do you know with such certainty that it means 'eternal' in Mt. 25:46 ?...you simply cannot know it means 'eternal' in Mathew 25:46, a verse which is pivotal to your case for the eternal torment of the 'lost'.Your case collapses, I will not rub it in.. I have made my point.

[ps]

Regarding 2 Pet 3:9, consider all of 2 Pet 3:2-15 and earlier comments here http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198617/#msg198617.

Regarding God's will/counsel/purpose being rejectable, see Luke 7:30,  and earlier comments here http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/article-on-the-greek-of-matt-2546/msg198848/#msg198848.

you still have not addressed the use of the Greek word 'boulomai' ('resolutely plan' ) in 2 Peter 3:9

Well, I tried to, by pointing you to Luke 7:30, for your review, as you have quoted.

and how the word reflects on the utter certainty that God will get His way and ALL will ultimately come to repentance and not perish.

I'll try to explain further.
Luke 7:30 contains (NASB) "But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John."
The Pharisees and  lawyers could only have been baptized by John while he was alive.
They did not do this, they "rejected God's purpose for themselves", John died, that purpose cannot be fulfilled.
The word "purpose" is a noun per Strong's, boule (G1012), reportedly derived from the verb you have mentioned, boulomai (G1014), thus generally expected to be very related in meaning.
The pharisees and lawyers thus successfully rejected God's purpose.

I also pointed out the rest of the passage in 2nd peter surrounding v9.  How, Peter was addressing the (presumed) delay in the coming of Jesus (at this point in Peter's life, this would be Jesus 2nd coming, or his return), and explaining that the (presumed) delay was SO THAT all, that would be all prior to Jesus return, could be saved.  If, the salvation could occur after Jesus return, relative to the apparent explanation of the delay, then this passage's point is useless, as the salvation of all would not be a valid reason for any delay.

I did not previously point out, but in v7, in the same passage, Peter also speaks of that which is "kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men", and please note this is in the same passage, approx v2-15, where Peter in v9 is speaking of 'all' being saved.

So, God apparently has an intention of the 'destruction' of ungodly men, in spite of the plan He has made and executed, by which they could all be saved.

summary

Luke 7:30 is an example of man resolutely, successfully, resisting God's plan.

2 Pet 3:2-15 indicates God has a plan, and apparently it stems from his desire that all be saved, but apparently, v7, part of that plan is also that those who are not saved encounter 'destruction'.  The word destruction is apoleia, G684, which apparently does not suffer from any uncertainty similar to kolasi-, regarding its meaning.

The 'all' to be saved, as mentioned by Peter, was(/is) to be within the time period Peter is addressing, which was prior to the (promise of) his coming, or return to receive his kingdom/bride.  At least, as far as 2 Pet 3:2-15, and thus v9, are addressing.

The destruction and salvation are both spoken of in this passage, relative to Jesus 2nd coming, or his return (John 14:3 "... I will come again and receive you to Myself...").