A question - Depths of Tartarus

[marie glen]

2 Peter 2:4 says/ is translated to read -
For if God did not spare the angels having sinned, but having cast them down to Tartarus, in chains of gloomy darkness, delivered them, being kept for judgment

But in the interlinear - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm - we can see that “Tartarus” here is a “verb”.

Now the Strong’s etc - https://biblehub.com/greek/5020.htm - says the word used means to cast to Tartarus, even to cast into hell.. which of course we know is wild imagination - so is it also imagination in translating a place of Greek myth into the scriptures?

1 - did the Greek word Tartarus, originally simply mean to cast or throw down? And later it became Greek myth and a specific (supposed) place..

2 - should a verb be read as a noun? I.e. tartaroo verb, cast or throw down, become a place..

...or is the “place” merely depths of darkness? A twilight of the psyche.. to wax poetic.. or I guess that would be psyche of darkest darkness..?

For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved for judgment.

God didn't spare angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, where he has secured them with chains of darkness and is holding them for judgment.

And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment. - Aramaic Version, But I don’t know where they got the word torment - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm

[carmon1]

I'm wondering if maybe their saying that it's a verb is just an error, a typo.  And yes, good question about the Aramaic translation.  Was Peter writing in Aramaic?  Or was it a bias in translation? 
Tartarus was both a deity and a place of judgment, so it can be a proper noun, but I don't see how it could be a verb.
"In Greek mythology, Tartarus was both a primordial deity that existed before the Olympians, as well as a name to describe a region of the Underworld. As a god, he was third in rank after Chaos and Gaea, preceding Eros.

As a place, it was far below than where Hades resided and it was used as the most horrible prison. Some accounts say that the distance between Tartarus and Hades was the same as between the earth and the heaven. Although the kingdom of Hades was the place of the dead, Tartarus was where ferocious monsters and horrible criminals were banished, or where the gods imprisoned their rivals after a war. The three judges of the Underworld, Rhadamanthus, Aeacus and Minos, decided who would go to the realm of Hades and who would be banished to Tartarus."  from "Greek Mythology" site

[WhiteWings]

And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment. - Aramaic Version, But I don't know where they got the word torment - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm

Often words are added to make a verse readble in English. Those words can be harmless or inject doctrine.
Torment is a word with lots of history.
For most it means torture. That's simply not in the original text. It could be implied but translation is not interpretation.
But...
The meaning of torture didn't exist until long after 288AD. Long after the last letter of the Bible was penned down.
During the writing of the Bible it was a touchstone. A stone to test purity of gold and silver. We find this word in the LoF passage.
In a way the stone judged. When rubbed on the silver or gold it did or did not leave a black streak.
When understood that way the translation doesn't inject doctrine, but still adds to the original.

[WhiteWings]

Just stumbled on a text showing how the ancient Jews understood it: https://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/hades.htm

[marie glen]

Just stumbled on a text showing how the ancient Jews understood it: https://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/hades.htm

Thank you! Isn't that something.. I know of course how the Talmud is full of paganized beliefs.. That although succored on God's Holy Writ, they (imo) strayed into those oh so popular myths of 'immortal' soul / immortality of humans before faith in Messiah.. which requires secret teachings, dark caverns, and the like for housing all those disembodied 'souls'. I did however like paragraph 6.

And so now we see 'christian' myths about nephilim.. angels which strayed differently than the first ones.. But more than ever, I believe they are the same fallen/rebel angels, the "sinned" and "left their first place".. And now they are locked into the darkness they embraced, and dark indeed it is..

-- For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but - cast them down to Tartarus^{5020 [e] tartarōsas-to cast into} - and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved for judgment -- (2 Peter 2:4)

A little further on, there's also this, 2 Peter 2:9
The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished..

["Punished" is G2849: κολαζο

κολαζο: present passive participle κολαζόμενος...

1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees..

2. to check, curb, restrain.

3. to chastise, correct, punish

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
punish.
From kolos (dwarf); properly, to curtail..]


Imo, it's "angels cast into darkness, reserved/kept unto judgment" and "the unjust reserved/kept unto judgment/correction" ^{->by remaining not yet born again..}

So are the angels that sinned now in chains in a pit? For these millennia. Or is that indeed simile/metaphor - (is it my imagination or do humans love to make metaphor what is literal and make literal what is metaphor??)

Also Isaiah 14:15 tells us what "the pit" and "the lowest depths of" is - "But you will be brought down to Sheol into the deepest regions of the Pit."

And of course, sheol - "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. Job said "Oh that you would hide me in Sheol!" (14:13) Jacob said "I shall go down to Sheol.. grieving.."

Jesus said "And you, Capernaum... shall be brought down to Hades. ....Rev 20:14 - "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.. What is the companion of death (thanatos)? The grave / sheol.. Jesus paid the price, "went to the lower part of the earth" (imo) the grave.

5 words (as we know) translated to read 'hell' - sheol (the original) hades (unseen but became a place or realm of the dead) gehenna (valley) the pit (same as sheol Is 14:15 says) and  :dontknow: what's the other one? I forgot..
oh.  :doh: :laughing7: tartarus, which lo and behold, in the one place it is used in scripture it may indeed be a verb, and not a place! https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm ^{- V-APA-NMS}

[marie glen]

I'm wondering if maybe their saying that it's a verb is just an error, a typo.  And yes, good question about the Aramaic translation.  Was Peter writing in Aramaic?  Or was it a bias in translation? 
Tartarus was both a deity and a place of judgment, so it can be a proper noun, but I don't see how it could be a verb.
"In Greek mythology, Tartarus was both a primordial deity that existed before the Olympians, as well as a name to describe a region of the Underworld. As a god, he was third in rank after Chaos and Gaea, preceding Eros.

As a place, it was far below than where Hades resided and it was used as the most horrible prison. Some accounts say that the distance between Tartarus and Hades was the same as between the earth and the heaven. Although the kingdom of Hades was the place of the dead, Tartarus was where ferocious monsters and horrible criminals were banished, or where the gods imprisoned their rivals after a war. The three judges of the Underworld, Rhadamanthus, Aeacus and Minos, decided who would go to the realm of Hades and who would be banished to Tartarus."  from "Greek Mythology" site

Thank you! Paul warned Timothy and Titus about myths, old wives tales.. even Jewish myths (the Talmud is full of these same nonbiblical myths)...

The interlinear word for word of the verse - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm - the V-APA-NMS - under the word "tartarus / tartarōsas, I believe the V means "verb" which comes up if we hover over it - https://biblehub.com/grammar/greek.htm

So I'm thinking as a verb it means "to cast to" and the "to hell" in the word description - (link above the word) - is simply by habit, assumed!
:mshock: :hithere:

..and once again.. no 'hell'  :gsmile:

[eaglesway]

And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment. - Aramaic Version, But I don't know where they got the word torment - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm

Often words are added to make a verse readble in English. Those words can be harmless or inject doctrine.
Torment is a word with lots of history.
For most it means torture. That's simply not in the original text. It could be implied but translation is not interpretation.
But...
The meaning or torture didn't exist until long after 288AD. Long after the last letter of the Bible was penned down.
During the writing of the Bible it was a touchstone. A stone to test purity of gold and silver. We find this word in the LoF passage.
In a way the stone judged. When rubbed on the silver or gold it did or did not leave a black streak.
When understood that way the translation doesn't inject doctrine, but still adds to the original.

Great post WW. Andrew Jukes, in his book "the restitution of all things", went into detail about that(brimstone) and also that sulfur was used in purification of vessels used in the service of worship of the gods among the greeks. Testing and purification being at least as obvious an interpretation of intent as "torment", if not more so. I remember, after reading that many years ago, beginning to seriously consider and study into the salvation of all.

[WhiteWings]

Imo touchstone is not brimstone.
Brimstone = yellow = sulpher
Touchstone = black = basalt (I think


The way I understand it is different and even more UR.

Refining gold works like this:
1] Fire to melt the gold.
2] Brimstone is added. It chemically binds with impurities in the gold and then floats to the surface where it's removed. Then it's swiped of like foam of beer.
3] Adding the brimstone/chemically binding impurities causes smoke.

All three things we see in that famous LoF verse. God is sitting as a refiner at LoF so to speak.
After done earthly refiners let the gold cool down and torment it by rubbing a touchstone over it, which (not) produces a streak.
And that's the torment part of one of the most solid proofs for a hell.

Earthly refiners refine until they manage to get out the impurities. And they are very able.
How can people think the Great Refiner isn't able to complete the refining and is forced to keep trying for eterinity.

So, the most solid support for ET is actually supporting UR.
It's a parable. Just as the Bible doesn't really mean wheat or sheep in the  parables, likewise this parable isn't really about fire and brimstone.

[marie glen]

An interesting thing I came across recently is how sulfur is a byproduct of lightning.. (And we have how many lightning flash verses in Rev? yes, as much as i've studied the book I have to go count them, lol.. But I'm thinking/guessing.. 3?

Earthly refiners refine until they manage to get out the impurities. And they are very able.
How can people think the Great Refiner isn't able to complete the refining and is forced to keep trying for eterinity.

So, the most solid support for ET is actually supporting UR.

    :Peace2: Amen! :thumbsup: ...along with the obvious death and hell being cast into the lof/2nd death.. (but of course, what actually is partner with death? the grave.. I love logic almost as much as the logos.. Or maybe they are the same!)

[marie glen]

Oops, I forgot to mention with thermonuclear blasts come lightning..

An interesting thing I came across recently is how sulfur is a byproduct of lightning.. (And we have how many lightning flash verses in Rev? yes, as much as i've studied the book I have to go count them, lol.. But I'm thinking/guessing.. 3?

not counting the first one / chapter 4 which wouldn't fit being vision of around the throne..

Revelation 4:5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 8:5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 16:18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_Mike - is interesting under “detonation” as to lightning and thunder

This new to me.. I’ve always assumed “the ark opened in heaven and there are Lightning’s and thunders” is metaphor for man’s final form of warfare.. But I never knew lightning and thunder actually are present with it :faint: ...tho the ark opened has suggested to me the word split.. (the 1st one, splitting of the atom, i think was seal 6, chapter 6, but told as its whole thing from begin - Opening of the seal, to the ‘end’ pretty much hides it.. I would never be able to believe two things— no mention of the split atom in the Bible.. that would be hard to believe.. I’m old enough to know how much it changed the world and world order.. also that the u.s. is not in the Bible.. contraire..

I wonder if any OT believers thought the virgin birth, Jesus not left in His grave to corrupt, ps 10? Etc, were metaphor..? Thoughsome we know searched the scriptures wanting to see more and when, etc..
“great hail” watching 9/11 footage made me wonder if perhaps John saw debris..
:dontknow:

[DavidFord]

And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment. - Aramaic Version, But I don't know where they got the word torment - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm

I don't know where Greek versions of 2 Peter 2:4 got Tartarus.

_The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs_ 7th edition (2012), 610pp. On 559:
Greek has ... -"Tatarused", "Cast into Tartarus"?  - a participle from "Tartarus" not found anywhere else in Greek literature.  The noun form - "T..." is found in The LXX (Job 40:20) where it refers to "the quadrapeds in _the deep_".  This use of the noun is much more in keeping with the meaning of the Aramaic in this verse ... (tekhtytha) - "the depths".

[eaglesway]

In Greek mythology, Tartarus (/ˈtɑːrtərəs/; Ancient Greek: Τάρταρος, Tartaros) is the deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans- wiki

[marie glen]

...so is tartaroo, the verb? Biblehub says it means to cast to, says it's usage as V - But it's often translated as noun. [https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm the "V" as we know, under the word "tartarōsas"]

KJ, etc, says to cast to hell - but we know how translators (even in lexicons) love to run with things.. 0y.

I've since come across and reread verses referring to "reserved for judgment" if I can remember the context and where.. One referred to the unsaved, or that is, not yet saved before their life is over.. Guess I'll do a search..

Talking about false teachers, doom/judgment awaiting them -
2 Peter 2:4 Aramaic Bible in Plain English, says -
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths (of darkness?) and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment
then a little further down
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment..

And,
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

And, then, Jude said pretty much what Peter said earlier -
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

    chains - G1199. desmos ► desmos: a band, bond; or shackle (of a prisoner); figuratively, an impediment or disability -- So it can be used figuratively

This verse I believe is figurative, spiritual and not literal. (Do humans love to metaphor what's literal and make literal what's metaphor? :mshock: )

[marie glen]

And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment. - Aramaic Version, But I don't know where they got the word torment - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm

I don't know where Greek versions of 2 Peter 2:4 got Tartarus.

_The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs_ 7th edition (2012), 610pp. On 559:
Greek has ... -"Tatarused", "Cast into Tartarus"?  - a participle from "Tartarus" not found anywhere else in Greek literature.  The noun form - "T..." is found in The LXX (Job 40:20) where it refers to "the quadrapeds in _the deep_".  This use of the noun is much more in keeping with the meaning of the Aramaic in this verse ... (tekhtytha) - "the depths".

Thank you.  :Chinscratch: depths of darkness.. how is one locked into darkness or depths of? Well, if the angels "left their first place" or better? position? being then fallen and imperfect, aren't they locked into that condition awaiting the judgment? Plus I think the usage in the verse is said to be a verb, meaning to cast to.. to cast to darkness.. "I saw Satan like lightning fall.." "and the devil and his angels were cast out of the heavens" -- cast out of the light and into the darkness, by their disobedience.. It seems obvious to me they are in darkness, even the greatest depths of..

I really don't see why we are supposed to see this as fallen angels in literal chains in a literal pit or in a level of a literal pit.. Especially if the word usage is as a verb, but, if the verb means to cast to tartarus,  :Chinscratch: is that a reference to a mythical place of the Greeks? Or is it reference to "depths" of the deep / darkness, as opposed to light.

:Chinscratch: As a verb, what I wonder is, does it mean -- "cast to" -- or -- "cast to tartarus" and in that case, is it "cast to pit" / or "cast to depths" -- I'm thinking it means to cast to. And cast to where, is in the rest of the verse, namely darkness. But even if it does indeed mean as verb, to cast to tartarus.. then I believe tartarus here, by Peter is meant to symbolize deepest darkness. Which is where I believe the rebel angels ("the Angels who sinned") are, taking into account other verses, about them, also.
Very helpful! Thanks!

[sheila]

 :2c: basically the abyss is 'the pit'..darkness/bottomless fall/death.Jesus draws mankinds spirit..on His Sabbath like sheep from the pit

now the rebel adversarial spirits[satans angels/demons are notdrawn out..and are thus chained..inthe abyss until a certain time where they

are released to go forth unto their doom...the second resurrection...and are thus harmed/destroyed in the LOF..when death is swallowedup

and consumed in it. Exodus 15;12

Exodus 16;30 But if the Lord brings about something totally new,and the earth opens its mouth,and swallows them,with everything that

belongs to them,and they go down alive into the grave[pit]..then you will know that they have treated the Lord with contempt.

satanandhis have treated Godwith contempt..in how they have treated all mankind[God doesnot tempt with evil.]just the same

as they have treated us..He see's it as done toHim.

Rev 12;15,16 then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river to overtake the womanand sweep her away with the torrent..

BUT THEEARTH HELPED THE WOMAN BY OPENING ITS MOUTH AND SWALLOWING THE RIVER THAT THE DRAGON HAD SPEWED OUT OF
.
IT'S MOUTH.

2Cor 12;5boast aboutmy weaknesses[weak flesh earth body] sown inweakness raised in power

2Cor 12;9  BUT HE SAID TO ME,"MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR YOU,FOR MY POWER IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS

Hebrews 7;16....One who is become apriest...on the basis of an indestructible life........

[sheila]

 :2c:Isaaih 13-15

  Yousaidin your heart,"I will ascend to heaven;Iwll raisemy throne above the stars of God[men as stars and sand;note fall andtrampling

of sand and stars/Abraham's seed]Iwillsitenthroned on the Mount of assembly,onthe utmost heights of the sacredmountain.

  I will ascend above the tops of the clouds[Jesusposition] Iwill make myself like the Most[compare to Jesus theveryimage and likeness

of God..and allmen whomshall beconformed/changed into His image] BUT YOU ARE BROUGHT DOWN TO THE GRAVE,TO THE DEPTHS/

sides OF THE PIT. ...note the scapegoatverses

Leviticus[Levi curses to thosecutoff..thesonsofperdition] chapter 16 20-22

that wicked generation perishes in the wilderness of thisearth anddoes notenter into the truepromised land/heaven..new

heaven/newearth..Holycity.

the wicked who perish[satanthe wicked onewith his evil seed] are also portrayed asgoat shaped demons inthe wilderness who perish

see Lev 17;7, 2Chron11;15,Isaaih 13;21 andIsaaih34;13

note the confesson of all the people's sins on tothe head of the scapegoat by theHighPriest. Rev 18 Babylonsfall.... God hasjudged her

for the wayshetreated you...the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints

[eaglesway]

Perhaps the Titans of Greek mythology are an echo of Gen 4:6 and the Nephilim.

[marie glen]

The "mighty men of old"? ..Could be! I've thought there may be more passed down memory in legend and myths of the nations than we might realize.. for instance some of the very earliest known artifacts are of 'mother' gods.. and they've been found in all lands.. Faint memories of Eve? Passed down stories get changed, like with the Babylonian legend of a great flood.. and the hero (Gilgamesh? Or is that another character..?) runs into a cyclops.. Then because the Epic if Gilgamesh (oh it is Gilgamesh :doh: ) was written before the God breathed/inspired account of Moses, why it's claimed Moses plagiarized the story. Oy. When of course memories  or accounts can be shared before one another.

If Titans were loosely based on offspring between angels and women (rather than the Lord's people with Cainites? Is another theory you've likely heard too. I don't have an opinion one way or the other really.) But if the Titans and such are evolved faint memories.. I still am not sure the Bible makes two classes or occasions(?) of falling, disobedient angels.. but I tend to think of them as the one revolt, ultimately falling to and kicked into deepest darkness of character..(?) which I think of as Satan&Co. the 1/3 mentioned in Rev.12 (and last verse(?) of Rev 1 says stars are angels.. so I find myself thinking that applies in chapter 12 as well, but not in Rev where it mentions stars shaking, or is it falling/appearing to fall/shake, biggest earthquake phrophecied.. oh dear! I'm wandering afield here, lol..

It's a fascinating topic isn't it!
:gsmile:

[Dandelion]

I have thought that the Greek and Roman mythology could be somehow connected with that passage of the Bible, myself.

D.