Mark 10:30 - reality check for preachers of man's infinity soul

[sheila]

there are both good and bad watchers/ the bad are held on the fifth heaven,Greg..called gregori...the angels that fell..and others that are

held on the 2nd heaven. They asked Enoch to pray for them.  we know that eating from the tree of  the knowledge of good and evil

brings death...both in Heaven and earth. Thus the reason God creates new Heavens and New earth..and the old is passing away.

[greg]

"immortality" from 1 Corinthians 15:54

Strong's #G110 -
athanasia
a-thanasia
From a compound of G1 ("a" as a negative particle) and G2288  [a-thanasia]

aha, now I see where the word eu-thanasia comes from!

G2288 -
thanatos
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively)

Like saying a-thanatos - opposite of death- aka "this mortal / this dying, must put on life"

"mortal"
G2349 -
thnētos
liable to die; From G2348-"to die"

I think both the Greeks and the Hebrews (and the languages) thought in terms of present..

...

Feel free to read Greek literature for yourself.  They used these words in reference to both 'gods' and 'men' who were killing each other and dying all the time.

Here is Philo, "Humans are immortal by reason of their heavenly nature, but just as degrees in this divine nature exist, degrees of immortality also exist."

Humans don't know.  These Greek philosophers didn't know; they were just making it up as they went along, and athanasia was one of the words they liked to throw around.  By itself it didn't mean much, just like today, "best friends forever!" ...  "this car ride is taking forever"...  "[playing video game] ugh, that guy just will not die"

[GodIsLove]

I'm no sure what to make of this thread...

Greg, so you don't believe any of Paul's writings are scripture and you insinuate he is a liar, etc.

I wont excommunicate you :) buuuut that to me is a slippery slope.

Everyone on here has commonalities and areas where we disagree and so far all disagreements have been pretty civil which I love. This place is exceptional in that way.

For me, Paul's conversion is one of the reasons I believe in Christianity.  He persecuted and killed Christians and then had a change of heart. What could have brought about such a change if not God himself? His conversion is much like many of our own experiences where God reaches out to us in our wretchedness and when He does this, who can refuse His love, and His plan for us?

Some of the most beautiful writings in the bible are in Paul's letters. Descriptions of love and of God's plan.

The criticisms you cite about him are similar to criticisms that atheists use to try to disprove the bible (small inconsistencies such as when the synoptic gospels are telling the same story but there are different details, etc.). Paul wasn't perfect but no apostle was. Peter denied Jesus and had a bit of a temper. They often didn't understand Jesus even when he was there speaking to them directly. Jesus rebuked them at times.

Paul's writings weren't considered scripture because only OT was scripture at that time if I am not mistaken. The gospels hadn't even been written yet.

The fact that he didn't write Jesus's biography is sort of a non-issue to me. He wasn't an apostle until after the crucifixion, and he was writing letters to churches regarding specific things. I'm assuming the churches already knew Jesus's basic life story, he didn't need to rehash it for them.

Some of my initial thoughts.

Also, it seems like you are an annihilationist. I do agree that some passages seem to point to this. You've heard all the scripture that UR believers cite so I won't go into that again.

To me, I believe in UR because I feel that God showed me that was his plan (through scripture) when I prayed to Him for answers. I agree with what you said tho, about how some people claim the Holy Spirit told them this or that and how do we really know, Etc. So obviously you have to compare it to scripture, properly translated and in the right context, so that is awesome that you are passionate about doing that.

Another reason I believe in UR other than scripture is because it shows God has a plan. Destroying part of His creation to me implies it was faulty, and God is perfect. I don't want to be presumptuous or arrogant and think I have all the answers, I know we are mere humans and the sliver that we understand "seeing thru the glass darkly" is just that, murky and without full understanding. I try to be humble and trust God.

I have someone who was very close to me my whole life, my brother, who I love dearly. He won't talk to me anymore and I keep reaching out to him in love. I hold out hope for the day that all are reconciled because without reconciliation, I would imagine many people would feel loss and yearning just as I do. Wouldn't God, who loves us and created us, feel the most loss of all, to have to destroy his creation that he loves so?

Yes, man is fallen and evil and we are all pretty hopeless.
It is impossible for flesh to please God...
BUT
With God all things are possible.

[jabcat]

Has that been openly said on this thread (Paul's writings are not scripture)?  If it has, that's clearly against forum guidelines and not allowed as ongoing insistence/basis for ongoing teaching.  I've been scanning this thread because I've sensed a spirit of contention in it, but I must have missed the denial of scripture.  I'll look again, and I'd remind that let's share "as I understand/in my opinion etc., not as an absolute expert or having the final word - which of course can create unnecessary conflict and dissension.  Thanks.

[jabcat]

OK, I see the post.  I'd read the beginning and end of it, missed the middle part in question. 

greg, you will indeed "fare better at Tentmaker Forum" as you won't be put to death no matter what.  Never happened, as far as I know (if it's happened, I wasn't told about it  :laugh:).    Please review the Forum Guidelines regarding the scriptures and textual criticism.  Simply, we don't go with the idea that huge chunks of the scriptures (60-70% of the NT) are lies.  Thanks.

[GodIsLove]

OK, I see the post.  I'd read the beginning and end of it, missed the middle part in question. 

greg, you will indeed "fare better at Tentmaker Forum" as you won't be put to death no matter what.  Never happened, as far as I know.  On a lesser level, you will also generally do better if you abide by forum guidelines.  Please review the Forum Guidelines regarding the scriptures and textual criticism.  Simply, we don't go with the idea that huge chunks of the scriptures (60-70 of the NT) are lies.  Thanks.

Hi jabcat, the one I was replying to was #18. Thanks :)

[eaglesway]

I agree with you about the application of ealma to a finite world age to come. This is all over the scriptures

Eph 1:19 These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

But Paul also speaks of "ages to come".

Eph 2:7  But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

So we, the first-fruits, will live not only through the age to come, but also "unto the age of ages" and through the "ages of ages"

In the age to come the children of the resurrection will receive rewards appropriate to the exercise of their stewardships in this life. 100 times being symbolic- like 30, 60, 100- references to bearing fruit through the gospel- the word that was buried, or carried away, or choked out by cares of this life.

The children of the resurrection will never die again, they will live forever through the ages- until "the age of the ages", which is, imo, after God has become all in all and all death has been anulled. Once death is swallowed up, there will be no more terminus of any kind, just everlasting life- all in God and God all in all. Certainly infinite for all, as God is imparting fulness into all of His creation, beginning with the first-fruits.........

We know not yet what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is-

                                  .......and He is aionian, everlasting, eternal and infinite

This is also reflected in Romans 8:18-23

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time(this present world/age) are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us(in the world/age to come).

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.(which will be the initializing event of the age to come) 20 For the creation was subjected to futility(in this age and the one before it), not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God(in the ages to come through the agency of Messiah and the first-fruits/ecclesia/us). 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth(new creation emerging) together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves(birthpangs), waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body(new creation emerged).

Once our body is redeemed from death, for us- there will be no more death, we will live forever. That is not unconditional, it is conditional upon being united to Christ. Eventually everyone will be bgought into that condition(Eph 1:9-11; Phil 2:9-11; 1 Cor 15:23-28; Col 1:15-20)

While the things Jesus and Paul speak about the next age indicate clearly that it is finite- there is nothing in that language that I can see that indicates that the resurrection life of the first-fruits(ecclesia) is anything less than everlasting-IN ADDITION TO BEING AIONIAN.  They(first-fruits) will live through the ages to come, doing works created from the foundation of the world that they should walk in them,(Eph 2:7,8) until the whole creation is set free from futility and death is no more for anyone anywhere :o)

[eaglesway]

Greg, you will not be tortured :o)....

But here at Tentmaker, a lowly forum, the scriptures of the canon commonly accepted are the basis of discussion. All issues of translation are open to be discussed. Issues regarding the validity of the scriptures themselves and the writers of the commonly held canon of the "Bible" are not open to discussion. That exceeds the parameters of our purpose here and there are other forums for that discussion.

We accept the writings of Paul as inspired scripture and it is a foundation, along with the writings of Peter, whose disagreement with Paul led to his being corrected by Paul and admitting it, along with himself categorizing Paul's writings as scripture, and John, James, Jude, and the writer of Hebrews.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi Greg. I've been offline for awhile so missed a lot of reading and am just now attempting to catch up. I would like to point out some things for your consideration concerning Paul. I visit a few sites on the net now besides this one and I have noticed, I must say to my amazement, the amount of Paul bashing going on these days.

One of the more obvious things is the whole Paul name change thing. He didn't have a name change, nor change his name. His name in the Greek language was simply Paul. In Hebrew, it was Shaul. This was common in a culture that had a sort of State language forced on them. Sort of like my English translation given name is Rebecca, but in Hebrew my name is Rivka. If the Jewish people suddenly took us over and vanquished us, declaring only Hebrew could be spoken, then my name would be Rivka, yet nothing changed except the language version of it.

I have personally always loved Paul and identified more with him than any other writer, probably more so today than even in the beginning of my walk. The fact that there were 12 original apostles, doesn't mean more were not to follow. In fact, just the opposite is true, if you understand that He is reproducing His natures in us, and the apostle is one of His natures as expressed through the works of the Holy Ghost. Our very fingers on our hands witness the 5 fold word natures, the thumb being representative of the apostle because without him/it the others can't work properly.

Paul was a man born out of season because the revelations he got were not so much for the day he lived in, as for us to whom the end of the age has come. I always sort of felt sorry for him for this reason, because the staggering revelations that he got, he knew he was not going to be alive to participate in them, simply because he was born out of season. I think of how it would have affected me to behold such a miraculous end and know that there was absolutely nil of a chance to be there for it. I think that would be true grief, personally. I think to be born in the day we are in, THE DAY, and to miss it, would be the definition of pure unrelenting inconsolable grief. Blessings...

[greg]

I'm no sure what to make of this thread...

Greg, so you don't believe any of Paul's writings are scripture and you insinuate he is a liar, etc.

I wont excommunicate you :) buuuut that to me is a slippery slope.

Everyone on here has commonalities and areas where we disagree and so far all disagreements have been pretty civil which I love. This place is exceptional in that way.

For me, Paul's conversion is one of the reasons I believe in Christianity.  He persecuted and killed Christians and then had a change of heart. What could have brought about such a change if not God himself? His conversion is much like many of our own experiences where God reaches out to us in our wretchedness and when He does this, who can refuse His love, and His plan for us?

Some of the most beautiful writings in the bible are in Paul's letters. Descriptions of love and of God's plan.

The criticisms you cite about him are similar to criticisms that atheists use to try to disprove the bible (small inconsistencies such as when the synoptic gospels are telling the same story but there are different details, etc.). Paul wasn't perfect but no apostle was. Peter denied Jesus and had a bit of a temper. They often didn't understand Jesus even when he was there speaking to them directly. Jesus rebuked them at times.

Paul's writings weren't considered scripture because only OT was scripture at that time if I am not mistaken. The gospels hadn't even been written yet.

The fact that he didn't write Jesus's biography is sort of a non-issue to me. He wasn't an apostle until after the crucifixion, and he was writing letters to churches regarding specific things. I'm assuming the churches already knew Jesus's basic life story, he didn't need to rehash it for them.

Some of my initial thoughts.

Also, it seems like you are an annihilationist. I do agree that some passages seem to point to this. You've heard all the scripture that UR believers cite so I won't go into that again.

To me, I believe in UR because I feel that God showed me that was his plan (through scripture) when I prayed to Him for answers. I agree with what you said tho, about how some people claim the Holy Spirit told them this or that and how do we really know, Etc. So obviously you have to compare it to scripture, properly translated and in the right context, so that is awesome that you are passionate about doing that.

Another reason I believe in UR other than scripture is because it shows God has a plan. Destroying part of His creation to me implies it was faulty, and God is perfect. I don't want to be presumptuous or arrogant and think I have all the answers, I know we are mere humans and the sliver that we understand "seeing thru the glass darkly" is just that, murky and without full understanding. I try to be humble and trust God.

I have someone who was very close to me my whole life, my brother, who I love dearly. He won't talk to me anymore and I keep reaching out to him in love. I hold out hope for the day that all are reconciled because without reconciliation, I would imagine many people would feel loss and yearning just as I do. Wouldn't God, who loves us and created us, feel the most loss of all, to have to destroy his creation that he loves so?

Yes, man is fallen and evil and we are all pretty hopeless.
It is impossible for flesh to please God...
BUT
With God all things are possible.

Thank you for sharing these thoughts.  Yeah man, I prefer a 'UR believer who likes Paul' over an 'everlasting torment advocate who challenges Paul' any day of the week!  In fact, the contest is not even close, not even a contest really.

If someone wants to believe in everlasting life for themselves, fine.  Know this though, that preaching has serious consequences.  It scared me greatly when I was a very young child (about 6) in Catholic school.  I remember sitting in church listening to sermons, and I would close my eyes and try to imagine heaven, and it was frightening to be told I will live in this one place (a white heaven) that just keeps going and going and going and never ends no matter what.  You have to realize, I wasn't scared about it in some casual sense.  I believed every single word of what the priest was saying.   It frightened me, it was bone chilling.  I have never wanted an infinite time life; that concept has never set right in my heart as a child or as a Christian adult.  Some might say that my heart at age 6 was flawed because it was not in harmony with the bible translation "forever and ever".  I don't think so.  I didn't even have the mental capacity then to agree to anything regarding infinity of any dimension; to sign up for that experience.  I don't think any human has the mental capacity to speak confidently about infinities, let alone agree to go for infinity rides with no exit door.

With that background about me, people will understand better why the literal text of the bible is so comforting to me. It shows the true character of the Father as One who continually transforms His creation through worlds and ages.  Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure").  All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended." Only the Father lives perpetually. The Father has the power to destroy my soul if He wants.  That comforts me.

So that's my position on 'everlasting life'.  Or for more detail, read my article: http://www.logicalhierarchy.com/blog/preacher-man-hell-mistranslation/

Now with regard to the false doctrine of 'everlasting hell', if someone wants to preach everlasting torment (especially preach it to children) I have a fundamental moral problem with that.  I consider it a form of mental and emotional abuse.  I don't think it should be prosecuted in the criminal or family courts, but rather I think Christians simply need to shine the literal bible text upon that darkness, and the darkness will flee.  And that is why I like free speech forums where people can find answers and perspectives. 

The idea of everlasting torment is so deeply offensive to me, I consider it evil of the highest magnitude when it is stamped upon children who believe without discernment.  Those who preach 'everlasting torment' categorically do not know the Father as justice.  He is Justice.

Deuteronomy 32:4, "His work is perfect, for all his ways are justice: a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is He."

Psalm 7:11, "God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You know, for me personally, I've never cared about having everlasting life. I'm not following Him for that, but I do think it's a lot of people's sole motivation, that and escaping what they believe will be eternal torment so they're only trying for a fire insurance policy. But He tests the hearts and not one of us will make it past Him with any "stuff", lol....Blessings...

[sheila]

 these things saidd here are the very reason God set up cherubs to guard the tree of life...that Adam/man not remain eternally/live forever in

such a condition[of unbelief]  a great great mercy unto man..imo..........remaining forever and ever/infinitely in corruption

  would be a horror of horrors.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, wouldn't it though? S-h-u-d-d-e-r. I keep thanking Him for His mercy for me because by all accounts I should be 6 feet under and just as deserving of it of any man (-kind), but one death is for sure worse than another, at least for a season, but He could have let it be a permanent condition. Blesssings.....

[GodIsLove]

:cloud9: You know, for me personally, I've never cared about having everlasting life. I'm not following Him for that, but I do think it's a lot of people's sole motivation, that and escaping what they believe will be eternal torment so they're only trying for a fire insurance policy. But He tests the hearts and not one of us will make it past Him with any "stuff", lol....Blessings...

Same thoughts here  :HeartThrob:

[GodIsLove]

Greg, thanks for your response :)

I was also scared of eternity as a child. Terrified actually. Like Cardinal said, I'm not in it for eternal life and I agree with a lot of your original thoughts, that eternal life isn't spelled out in the bible as explicitly as you describe. 

I tend to think of life "age-during" is applicable to the here and now.

I do believe that all will be reconciled. I don't think too much about eternity because it still does freak me out if I think about it too deeply. I think because it is incomprehensible to is as mortals and is not really for us to think about now anyway.

[eaglesway]

But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory."

[jabcat]

But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory."

:thumbsup:

[GodIsLove]

But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory."

Hah, well, yes :)

I guess I meant MOST of the passages people use to cite immortality are aionian (never sure I spelled that right), so to me the bible focuses on or life now, and in the next age, but beyond that a little is talked about but not a ton, and I think, to me, it's because we aren't yet to be worrying too much about the future.


Do Not Worry
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?

28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

I try to take this to heart about this life, and whatever comes after it. I trust in God and let it be (on a good day :)

[eaglesway]

Greg, it is not a problem if you want to discuss the scriptures from an annihilationist view. However if you want to "teach" annihilation, that is not permissible. Not thru links either ;o)

I understand you are new to this site. This site is for the promotion of the salvation of all. It is not a general debate site. We allow discussion from other points of view, but we do not carry on debates with teachers of eternal torment or annihilation.

I agree with what you are teaching about the literal understanding of olam/aion as world age, but I disagree with some of the conclusions you have drawn from that limited perspective which excludes some other words and verses that relate to the foundation doctrines(heb 6;1-6) or the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

I would be glad to discuss those things with you, as I am sure others here would also, but we are not unfamiliar with the things you are teaching. These are not new things. I have good friends who are still believe in annihilation and some who still believe in eternal torment. So understand this is not about excluding some new teaching- it is about the purpose of this site, which is to proclaim "the restoration of all things which was spoken through all the prophets from olam".(Acts 3;21)

Posting links to annihilationist teaching videos is not what we do here, and I hate to offend you. I do believe you are sincere and well studied- but not well studied enough.

I would encourage you to do the same kind of study on the word "destroyed" in two Peter 3, where translators have rendered 3 different words that DO NOT MEAN DESTROYED, and are not translated as destroyed anywhere else in the Bible.

Jesus said, literally, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me."

He also said, literally, "Behold(see, understand, comprehend) I am making all things new" and write, "these words are faithful and true."

If only men would begin by believing literally the words of Messiah concerning the eventual destiny of all, then they could begin to understand His purpose and the scope of His redemption.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Eph 1:8-11

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:19,20

Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:22-28


Honestly, I dont understand how a man of your learning and intelligence can read through the verses written in this one small post without getting at least a glimpse of the restoration of all things.

But anyway, that is what the Tent is for- people who want to learn about and find fellowship in the Good News(euaggelion) of God's kind intention(eudokia) which He purposed in Himself, the gathering together into one(anakephalaomai) of all things in Christ, whether things in heaven or things on earth.

I might add, that it is not much kinder, imo, to tell children they can burn for an age, or to comfort them by telling them "maybe they will burn up quick like straw if they werent too bad"!

You have misunderstood fire and its purpose.

Light is fire to darkness. The chaff(carnal man) is separated from the wheat(spiritual man) so that the wheat can be gathered. Only the chaff is consumed with unquenchable fire.

Every hidden thing will be brought to light, because His eyes are as flames of fire and His face shines like the sun. Every knee will bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

"And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." Rev 5:13

I urge you to press in a little deeper  because you have fallen short of the mark thus far.

[eaglesway]

I agree God is Love, that most of the verses used to prove immortality are aionian and olam. However, this does not mean that the life in the age to come is not also everlasting for those who are grafted into the Vine of Christ.

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity(pro chronon aionian-before time aionian), 10but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

God has abolished death. As we enter Christ death is abolished forever, not just for an age. and lest we take Paul's word for it.....

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

:Peace2:

[GodIsLove]

EW,
Your posts are so thorough, rational, and most importantly, biblical. So far since I have been here at TM, you also always seem to bring things back into focus, especially for us newbies (myself I have believed in UR for only nearly 4 mos, and I have been seriously reading the bible for 5 years, so I am obviously still learning a lot). Thanks!  :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Four months! How wonderful! So much awaiting discovery! I am still seeing new glimpses of glory reflecting off of this diamond of the "restoration of all things". I marvel and I wonder and I rejoice :o)

[greg]

...

Jesus said, literally, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me."

He also said, literally, "Behold(see, understand, comprehend) I am making all things new" and write, "these words are faithful and true."

If only men would begin by believing literally the words of Messiah concerning the eventual destiny of all, then they could begin to understand His purpose and the scope of His redemption.

...

Honestly, I dont understand how a man of your learning and intelligence can read through the verses written in this one small post without getting at least a glimpse of the restoration of all things.

But anyway, that is what the Tent is for- people who want to learn about and find fellowship in the Good News(euaggelion) of God's kind intention(eudokia) which He purposed in Himself, the gathering together into one(anakephalaomai) of all things in Christ, whether things in heaven or things on earth.

I might add, that it is not much kinder, imo, to tell children they can burn for an age, or to comfort them by telling them "maybe they will burn up quick like straw if they werent too bad"!

You have misunderstood fire and its purpose.

Light is fire to darkness. The chaff(carnal man) is separated from the wheat(spiritual man) so that the wheat can be gathered. Only the chaff is consumed with unquenchable fire.

Every hidden thing will be brought to light, because His eyes are as flames of fire and His face shines like the sun. Every knee will bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

"And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." Rev 5:13

I urge you to press in a little deeper  because you have fallen short of the mark thus far.

Hmmm...

First, you said "it is not much kinder, imo, to tell children they can burn for an age"... I'm actually saying something different moderator.  I think survival-of-the-fittest on earth is often crueler than simply being dropped into a lake of fire and burning up instantly.  I'd be surprised to meet someone who would prefer to be eaten alive by a lion rather than being (as described by the Psalms) devoured like a dry piece of grass in a fire.  As for someone being tormented "to a world/age", it doesn't mean everyone who is transported to a new world (i.e., a dry part in Sheol) suffers for the precise duration of that new world.  Rather, I say that Yahweh will do justice, and most bible quotes describe that justice as being incredibly swift, like dry grass in a fire.  And in 2 Peter, the apostle is discussing hell and he distinguishes that some are tormented worse than others.  That makes sense in a world of justice.  So a person can be sent "to a world" and be tormented there for a limited time --  they need not be tormented on that new world for the same duration as the world's existence.  Indeed, all of us were born here on this wild planet earth (a new world for us), and some of us have suffered a lot, but none of us have lived for the entire duration of earth.  Further, I think the proper way to describe torment outside this world to a child is to simply read the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31, and emphasize that "torment in Sheol" is interpretive.

Second, in support of your perspective regarding UR, you cite John 12:32, which in context is actually John 12:25-35, "'Whoever loves his life shall destroy it and whoever hates his life in this world shall guard it to life, to a world/age.  If a man serves me, he shall come after me, and where I am there shall also my servant be. Whoever ministers to me, The Father shall honor. Behold, now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say: My Father, deliver me from this hour? But for this I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.' And a voice was heard from Heaven: 'I have glorified and I am glorifying it again.' And the crowd that was standing there heard, and they were saying, 'It was thunder', and others were saying 'An Angel spoke with him.' Yeshua answered and said to them, 'This voice was not for my benefit, but for your benefit.' Now is the judgment of this world/age; now The Ruler of this world/age is hurled outside. And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw klnSh to myself. He said this that he might show by what death he would die. The crowds were saying to him, 'We have heard from the law that The Messiah abides to a world/age. How do you say that the Son of Man is going to be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?' Yeshua said to them, 'The Light is with you a little time longer.'"

That phrase in John 12:32 klnSh ("all men" or "all of them" or "any of them") cannot be separated from its context, because it routinely means "all of them" or "any of them" in context rather than "all men throughout time and space".  For example, see how this exact phrase klnSh is used in these gospel examples:

• Mark 6:39, "And he commanded them to seat klnSh ("all men throughout time and space"?) on the grass."
• Mark 10:44, "And he among you who wants to be the first will be a servant to klnSh ("all men throughout time and space"?)."
• Mark 13:13, ""And you will be hated by klnSh ("all men throughout time and space"?) because of my name, but whoever will endure until the end will be saved."
• Matthew 10:22, "And you will be hated by klnSh ("all men throughout time and space"?) because of my name, but whoever will endure until the end, he will be saved."
• Matthew 26:33, "Kapa answered and said to him, 'Even if klnSh ("all men throughout time and space"?) will be offended at you, I will never be offended at you.'"

Do you read Hebrew?

If you study the related phrase klmdm ("all whatever" or "anything"), you'll know this is a common Hebraicism - a klprefix phrase cannot be separated from its context.  It just can't, man. It is literally meaningless without context, just like if I just walked up to you and said just this one word, "anything".  You'd have literally no idea what I was saying.  We would probably both just laugh.

We have these same expressions in English too.  For example, "I'll buy klmdm" is like saying "I'll buy everything" but it really means 'I'll buy whatever' is the subject of our discussion.  So if you're showing me a bushel of apples, I would say "Tsba ana zbna klmdm" ("I wish to buy everything"), meaning I'll buy the whole bushel, not the whole universe.

As the literal gospel verses above show, it is the exact same with klnSh in the language of Israel in the first century.  If someone says 'I will draw klnSh' to me, it doesn't make any sense without first knowing the context of which people he's talking about.  No one who speaks the language of 1st century Israel would make the assumption that the speaker means all people throughout time and space, unless the speaker specifically sets that context first. 

And indeed in John 12:32, the Messiah was speaking upon the context of John 12:25 -- 'all men who are not destroyed' -- as we read the very opening context in John 12:25, "'Whoever loves his life shall destroy it and whoever hates his life in this world shall guard it to life, to a world/age."

[eaglesway]

Whoever loves his life shall lose it- apollyei, who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life aionian.

Jesus is talking about loving life in this world kosmos. As John put it, For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world. One cannot receive "aionion zoe" while still in love with this world age.

Those who "lose" themselves to this world will be" ruined" by it. If that ruination does not produce repentence and awakening, they will be corrected in the next world. "aionian kolassis" is the correction of the next life. It involves the ruination and perdition of the carnal nature- darkness, consumed by the fire/light of His presence. You believe they will be destroyed utterly, which I believe is incorrect because of many many verses.

"These will go away into eternal punishment(aionian kolassis), but the righteous into eternal life".(Mt 25:46)  Clearly the kolassis is aionian/olam -not eternal. Altho in the annihilation paradigm they are not tormented forever, they are destroyed forever, so the kolassis would not be aionian- a time appropriate to a purpose.

Jesus said "every hidden thing will be brought to light"

Paul said "everything that is brought to the light becomes light".

To use your own style of hermeneutics, apollyei makes sense as "lost" and "ruined" in every verse it is used. It does not make sense as "destroyed" in every verse that is used- and this is easily proven.

For instance, Jesus says He came to seek and save that which was lost(apolumi).

How could He come to seek and save that which was "destroyed".

If destruction(apolumi, apollyei) is utter destruction in one case- ought it not be so in every case? yet who can save that which has been utterly destroyed.

But that which has been "ruined" may be restored. That which has been "lost" may be recovered.

Those who love the world are ruined by it in this life, and incur, in approproiate measure to their measure, correction in the next. "aionian pyr" is "aionian kolassis" and it leads to this....

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying(katargese- nullify, render powerless) every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.......... When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Cor 15 clearly states that every adversary will be subjected, and that God will become "all in all(everything in everyone)".

The purpose of subjection is RECONCILIATION AND RESTORATION- not utter destruction.

A further example of the failure to properly translate "destroy" is in 2 Peter 3, one of your proof scriptures. There are four different words translated "destroy" in various translations in 2 Peter 3.

You can see the incorrect nature of those translations below.....

Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation(arche746s ktiseos2937)." 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed(4921 synestōsa-composed) out of water and by water, 6 through which the world(kosmos) at that time was destroyed(622apoleto-perished), being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction(apoleias684) of ungodly men.

The world itself was not utterly destroyed. The world system that was in place was ruined by the flood, but the earth endured, and the remnant carried the seed of life into a new world- on the same earth. The fire that this present age is reserved for will produce a new heavens and a new earth "wherein dwells righteousness". This is because, "he must reign until every adversary is subjected". The rebellion of men will be destroyed in the fire of God's light and they will be "ruined", "subjected", "gathered" and "restored". The last enemy to be "destroyed" is death. God is the God of the living. When death is destroyed there will be no more death- and no more dead.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing(boulomenos- resolute will...not willing) for any to perish(622 apoleto) but for all to come to repentance.


10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements(stoicheon-elementary principles) will be destroyed(lythēsetai-loosed, released) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up(2147 heurethēsetai-exposed).

2 Peter 3:10 is the only place in the whole Bible in any version that lythesai is translated "destroy".
Everywhere else it is translated loosed, released, dissolved. Heurethesetai is "exposed". IN 175 OUT OF 176 other occurences, heurethesetai is translated "was found to be", or "will find". Nowhere is it, "burned up" and that meaning is nowhere in the word. Apollumi is "lost" or "ruined" or "perdition".

Of all the mistranslation we cite, such as olam/aion/forever; hell/sheol/the grave; there is no more grievous mistranslation than 2 Peter 3.

The fire of God will expose the secrets of mens hearts. Thats why His eyes are as flames of fire, as it is written, "all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do(Heb 4;13)- "their conscience either accusing or excusing them on the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ- (Romans 2) That is what gehenna is about.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed(lyomenōn-dissolved) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed(lythēsontai-dissolved, loosed) by burning(being on fire will be dissolved(ouranoi pyroumenoi lythēsontai), and the elements(stoicheon) will melt(teketai) with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

The "elements" here spoken of are the "principalities and powers of this present world age". In Hebrews 5 Paul says that by now we ought to have moved beyond the "elementary principles" of the oracles of God. In Gal 4 he warns believers about returning to the weak and beggarly elements(stoichea). in Colssians 2 Paul warns again, "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles(stoicheon) of the world(kosmos), why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

Peter and Paul used the same words to describe what was being "dissolved" "anulled" and "exposed".

the stoicheon of this kosmos.

Peter sees this as creating a "new heavens and a new earth". Jesus says through John "Behold(see, understand) I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW"

When Christ has done away with all rule power and authority because all things, whether in heaven or on earth, have been reconciled to God by the blood of His cross, the fire, which was always only one fire- the fire that touched Isaiah's lips, the Branch, a brand plucked from the fire, the fire that separates wheat from chaff, the fire in which gold, purified 7 times, is hammered into a Lampstand- all the same fire. it is the fire of the DAY.

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Each man's work will become evident; for the Day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire.

It is to be REVEALED, EXPOSED, PURGED, SEPARATED with fire. God is not destroying people. And neither are we because, "I came not to judge the world but that the world might be saved by me".

The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7 And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the Lord has spoken.

We are destroying SPECUALTIONS that exalt themselves against the TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD, who will not have anyone perish(apollomi), not have anyone "destroyed"- but will ruin them in order to save them, as He did with Israel.

In that day the Lord will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.
2 In that day,
"A vineyard of wine, sing of it!

God has burned up the wood hay and stubble of Israel, He has pierced the heart of pride, by the lowly Gentile who is now a child of inheritance- but not to utterly destroy them. he ruined them in order to restore them, "Therefore all Israel will be saved".

From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

      33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Peter preached the restoration of all. Jesus proclaimed it. Paul taught it. John did as well.

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

If God utterly destroys the wicked, most of the scripture I listed in the last two posts make no sense at all.

As far as context for all. There is plenty of context in the body of verses I have given, and they are only a few..... but Colossians 1:15-20 gives the context of what all means as clearly as any individual portion.

He created all. He is before all. He is over all. All things hold together in Him. For so it pleased the Father to make all fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things back to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, through the blood of His cross.

That is what Jesus means when He says, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me."

"Behold, I am making all things new"

"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be the glory unto the ages, amen"

   

[greg]

...

To use your own style of hermeneutics, apollyei makes sense as "lost" and "ruined" in every verse it is used. It does not make sense as "destroyed" in every verse that is used

...
   

You're correct that 'destruction' cannot be read in isolation, because it too is dependent on context.  But here are bible examples where "destruction" is described in contexts that do not suggest either restoration or refinement of a remnant:

Proverbs 24:20, "The evil have no future. The lamp of the wicked will go out."  How could the wicked have "no future" if in fact they shall be divided in parts, and the good part restored? 

Proverbs 12:7, "The wicked are overthrown, and are no more, but the house of the righteous shall stand."

In the psalms, King David describes the wicked "like chaff that the wind drives away... the wicked will perish" (Psalm 1:4 and 1:6).  And see how he describes the wicked as dead men that are not even remembered in Psalms 9:6 and 34:16.  David explains that the wicked "fade like the grass, and wither like an herb" (Psalm 37:2). They "shall be cut off...and...will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there. (Psalm 37:9–10). "The wicked perish...like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20). "The transgressors shall be altogether destroyed" (Psalm 37:38).  The wicked are analogized to finite things like grass, and then the text explains that they are destroyed as finite things are destroyed.

Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh?  He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time...they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."

Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."

Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every worker of wickedness shall be chaff.  And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them."

In any case, it is plain that klnSh ("all men") must be read in context, and that in the literal gospel text is has multiple meanings, including "anyone" or "any of them".  Mark 6:39 is probably the funniest example to prove this point that is obvious in the language of first century Israel, "And he commanded them to seat klnSh on the grass."  Does Yahshua refer to "all men throughout time and space" or simply "them" who were present that day on the grass?

If you speak the language of the Jewish people in the 1st century, you can see that Yahshua was telling the Pharisees in John 16 that it is not just these Jews who shall be drawn up to Yahshua on the cross, but klnSh "any man".  And who are these klnSh "any man" to which Yahshua refers?  John 16:25 tells us explicitly that they are men who do not love their lives but guard them to a world/age.  Is that "every man"?  No, because John 16:25 tells us that some men do love their lives more than Yahshua, and their fate is destruction.  Moreover, lots of passages in the bible instruct about this "any man" who is given the gift to ascend: it is a man whose soul has not been destroyed in Gehenna.  It is a man who has the testimony of Yahshua and keeps the commandments.  It is anyone to whom the Father wills to give to the Son.

"Then shall return the dust to the earth as it was, and the Spirit shall return unto God who gave." Ecclesiastes 12:7.  Only that which lives in YHWH continues perpetually. 

Allow me to emphasize a very key point... it is very easy to describe immortality explicitly in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or any language.  See for example, Psalm 102:27 regarding YHWH, "You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."  Nowhere in Yahshua's words do we find such an explicit statement regarding man, or even angels.  Rather, if you want to find explicitly detailed statements of immortality, then go to Greek and Hebrew literature -- the Pharisees and Greek mystics for example believed everything was immortal.  You couldn't spin a dradle inside a library in the first century without hitting a book where the author claimed every soul was immortal, the gods were immortal (to the Greeks & Romans), etc.  - they expounded in great detail. But, key point, the bible was special because it never said that everything was immortal.  That was quite radical about the bible as a religious text.  In fact, the bible says repeatedly that all wickedness (not just some) will be destroyed by YHWH.  So YHWH was more powerful than the Greek gods.  When Matthew 10:28 refers to both "soul and body", that's an affirmation of YHWH's supreme power.  That's important to remember as Christians, that the bible was different than Greek and Jewish literature.  It is like how we remember that the Jewish temple was special because it did not have idols inside.  That fact was quite radical at the time because the temples of every other religion in the world focused on idols. 

By the way, I am not teaching.  I am a student of the literal text in the language spoken by the apostles in Israel in the first century.