Mark 10:30 - reality check for preachers of man's infinity soul

[greg]

Mark 10:30 has a famous promise, that disciples who give up good things in this world for the messiah's sake will receive 100-times more in the world to come.  This promise helps show the character of the Father, as One who favors justice and measurement. 

Literal Mark 10:30, "There is no man who has left houses or brothers or sisters... because of me and my gospel and not will receive one hundred times the houses and brothers and sisters... ubEalma ("and in the world/age") to come life dEalm ("that is to a world/age"). 

Notice first that the text says 100-times more in the world to come, not infinitely more. 

But secondly (and more importantly to language scholars), Mark 10:30 is a serious reality check to preachers of infinity, because it defines the next world/age as a finite world/age like the present one. The text says so literally if you know how to read Greek or Aramaic.  As shown below, the Greek & Aramaic are in total harmony here on the grammar.

The key here is that the literal grammar is specifically saying that the world/age to come is a finite world/age, because we read the definite article Ealma ("the world/age") in the very same expression to expressly define the indefinite Ealm ("a world/age").  If you don't study language, this fact may not sound important, but I assure you, it is enormously important.  Aramaic and Greek translators who use non-literal definitions are forced to awkwardly ignore this grammar in Mark 10:30 to fit their cherry-picked translations. 

That is why Mark 10:30 provides a reality check to preachers of man's infinite soul, and it is the elephant in the room for non-literalists.

The Greek of Mark 10:30 reveals the exact same conclusion as the Aramaic because the Greek also uses the definite article (iota) to qualify the verse "and in αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) ("the age/world") that is coming life αιωνιον (ah-ee-on-ee-on) ("age-during")."

By contrast, the non-literal Greek translation of Mark 10:30 is "and in αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) ("the age") that is coming life αιωνιον (ah-ee-on-ee-on) ("everlasting")."  The non-literal translation doesn't make sense ultimately; it tries to squeeze everlasting life into a single world or age.

Indeed, this Greek word αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) (just like the Aramaic Ealma) is found throughout the gospel translated as "world" and "age".  So, it is hypocrisy to try to make the word infinite in Mark 10:30 when it is plainly finite everywhere else in the bible.

So Mark 10:30 is excellent evidence in the gospel to prove that the next age (or world) to come is not everlasting. Again, all ages/worlds are by definition finite or limited in space and time.  Only the Father lives indefinitely. 

Indeed, Mark 10:30 does not even attempt to limit the Father in any way, it simply provides further support for the proof that the Greek and Aramaic words for age and world are categorically finite. So if the gospel is ever going to describe something eternal or infinite or perpetual, the gospel needs to use different words or special words, rather than just describing a future age or world.  And indeed those different and special words are used in the bible but only to describe the Father living perpetually and eternally (i.e., Isaiah 43:10, Psalm 102:25-27), not to describe punishment. Punishment is described exclusively with finite words.

In reading the bible literally, I've never found any promises of unconditional everlasting life.  Rather, I only see those statements in ancient secular sources (ie., from the Pharisees and Greek mystics who thought everything was eternal).

In reading the bible literally, I see promises about life are specifically in reference to a world/age to come, such as John 10:28, which reads uana yhb ana lhun Khya dlEalm ula nabdun lEalm ("And I give, I am to them life that is to a world/age, and they will not perish to a world/age")."

This language is a very specific promise about a world/age to come.  If the messiah was going to promise that someone will never perish ever, then the text should instead say la nabdun mThum ("they will not perish ever"), or something similar to that. 

Here is another example that proves this point.  John 11:25, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, even if he should die he will live.  And whoever lives and believes in me to a world/age will not die."

Once again we see the promise of life is very specifically in reference to the world/age to come.  The indefinite form of the word is used Ealm ("a world/age") rather than the definite form Ealma ("this world/age").

If you depart from the Creator you will eventually die because that which is outside the Creator is destroyed in its appropriate season.  See scriptural cites below.  Indeed, there are many examples where angels choose to leave the rising and engage in the falling.  And in that falling, they do indeed die.  Jude 6, Genesis 6, Revelation 12.  And as for man...

Proverbs 12:7, "The wicked are overthrown, and are no more, but the house of the righteous shall stand."

Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."

Proverbs 24:20, "The evil have no future. The lamp of the wicked will go out."

In the psalms, King David describes the wicked "like chaff that the wind drives away... the wicked will perish" (Psalm 1:4 and 1:6).  And see how he describes the wicked as dead men that are not even remembered in Psalms 9:6 and 34:16.  David explains that the wicked "fade like the grass, and wither like an herb" (Psalm 37:2). They "shall be cut off...and...will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there. (Psalm 37:9–10). "The wicked perish...like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20). "The transgressors shall be altogether destroyed" (Psalm 37:38).  The wicked are analogized to finite things like grass, and then the text explains that they are destroyed as finite things are destroyed.

Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh?  He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time...they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."

Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every worker of wickedness shall be chaff.  And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them."

Deuteronomy 32:4, "His work is perfect, for all his ways are justice: a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is He."

Psalm 7:11, "God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times."

Jeremiah 17:10, "I Yahweh search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people according to their ways, according to what their actions deserve."

Who would presume they deserve everlasting life for infinite time simply because they passed one test with one life on one planet?   

[sheila]

mixing law and grace...no one presumed to desrve....it is a free gift. ones written to our old man..one is promised to our new man

  the 100 fold speaks of the celestial body[outer court] new soul[holy] and most holy[new spirit] 100 100 100

[sheila]

Yahwey does search the hearts..and this is the judgement of Yahwey..as all men have bore the image of the corrupt

  so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorruptible. God bound all men in disobedience in order to have mercy on all.

eat from the fruit of the TOKOGAE and theres death in the pot. mix grace/law..death in the pot.....throw a handful of fine flour in the pot

   GRACE..then men can eat the word of God and live

   the parable of the workers in the vineyard...all got the same wage...some felt they 'deserved' more....

[sheila]

the Kingdom of Heaven is like.....a woman took leavening and hid it..in 3 measures of flour..until all the flour was leavened.

    the leavening is Grace/free gift of God..that lifts up[Christ] and raises all men.  the 3 measures are 30,60,and 100=until all

[marie glen]

Amen Sheila.. grace! I've wondered if three measures of meal isn't also three harvests.. each in his own order, Jesus the firstfruit, then those that are His at His coming and then at the end when He hands the kingdom over to the Father.. grace leavens the whole lump..

I learned about that verse here at tentmaker forum! and it really hit home with me.. 1 Cor. 15:22-28

[marie glen]

I know that ultimately God will be merciful to all.. This drama (imo, that is) is being acted out. Yes, the wicked will  perish from off the earth.. but God resurrects all. And I can't help but think surely there must be purpose to that (the resurrecting of all). More and more i'm finding the bible reverberates with u.r. ...with resurrection. (wow, another R.. universal reconciliation, universal repentance, universal redemption, universal resurrection..)
:Peace2:

[greg]

...

   the parable of the workers in the vineyard...all got the same wage...some felt they 'deserved' more....

Why was this worker upset who labored more?  Was it because his 'infinite time' reward was the same as the other laborer's 'infinite time'? He wanted the other guy to get infinity minus 4 perhaps?   In this parable, why does the Messiah use measured examples, two laborers work for limited hours of the day, and each receive a limited reward of one coin (a dinar = day's wage). Same for the parable of the talents: 5 talents well invested earns that servant a large reward, but not an infinite reward. 

Realizing the Father's quality of measurement and proportionality is important.  He is a mathematician too.

If the Messiah wants to promise a disciple everlasting life, such that he will never ever fall from grace, then why not use language like this quote from Psalm 102:27, "Your years shall not be ended."  The psalmist said it about YHWH.  It's easy to say in any language... Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic.  Yet you can't find it any of these languages in the literal bible text about anyone other than YHWH.

I think we are supposed to be humble here on earth.  We are not supposed to claim, like the Pharisees did, and the Greek mystics did, and the Egyptian sorcerers did, that we are everlasting.  We don't get to labor on earth for 70-years or so in exchange for everlasting life.   Rather, the best we can do is labor, and pray to be in harmony with He who has perpetual life, and pray we'll stay in harmony as we navigate from age/world to age/world.  And know at all times whether we are rising or falling, that YHWH will do justice. 

Anything beyond the literal promises in the gospel is just people talking interpretations.  And in particular, this leavening of the words "aion" and 'olam' and 'Ealma' has produced some very drunken dogmas over the centuries, as religious men presume they drink from the Babylonian cup of 'immortality'. 

How much longer until YHWH pours out that cup?

[sheila]

But you forget Jesus..and that the Father granted Him to have life in himself....'I AM the resurrection= 8 gematria/ infinity layed down

First/many/Omega...and it is said...He takes away ALL the worlds sins..of which death is the sting..so why should they ever die?

  a High Priest after the order of Melchezedek

[sheila]

Ouroboros, as a sign of infinity..is the serpent swallowing his tail...but Christ crushed His head..thus the serpent has His end....

  sin and death has it's end

  over ALL the POWER of the enemy authority is given in Christ..and if we are in Christ's body/raised in His image and likeness/

and in the image and likeness of the Father and we are ONE..then life without end has come

[sheila]

 and...that which is mortal...must put on immortality.

[greg]

*Mod note - this post is left to stand as-is at present, to show context of ensuing posts.  It is clearly against TM Forum guidelines and may be edited at a later date.  [update - edited by original poster]


The extent of YHWH's and Yahshua's life in space + time + other dimensions = beyond the horizon to my perspective. 

I don't see how anyone can claim that they have achieved such 'oneness' with Yahshua on earth that they have a golden ticket to infinite time, and moreover that in navigating infinity permanently attached to God, that they will never fall from grace, regardless of how many angels before them fell from grace as recorded in the bible. 

Is YHWH really inviting the Messiah's disciples to become infinitely indestructible? If the Messiah did not promise infinity literally to his apostles, l-e-t-t-e-r  f-o-r  l-e-t-t-e-r, then it is speculation to put words in his mouth.  I mean, who would argue that it is perhaps what he was trying to say, but he just didn't it say it explicitly for some reason??  It would be exponentially easy to say in different ways, 'oh by the way, guys, if you believe in me, I'm going to carry you for infinite time and there is absolutely no way even my Father can destroy you ever.'  <-- That would have done the job, but no, that's not in the bible.

Fallen angels are in the bible though, and they previously experienced grace in heaven.  A huge portion of the bible is devoted to showing their destruction and death, and then after Revelation 21:8 describes the "second death", they are no longer mentioned in the literal text, because they are dead and gone.  It would be an assumption to assume they are not gone.

The most commonly misunderstood verse for immortality of men is Revelation 21:4, uhu nlKha kl dmEa mn Eaynyhun umuTha la nhua mkyl ula abla ula rub aula kaba Thub nhua Eal apyh.  Again, I read letter for letter in the language of the apostles, so here is my hyper-literal translation,"And he will wipe away all/any tears from their eyes, and death/poison/oath will not be thereforward and not mourning/sorrow/penance/truly and not crying/uproar/clamoring/resounding/pleading/contending/rebuking and not pain/suffering/sickness/consumption/adversary again/return will be upon His/its faces."   Also note: the phrase "and not" that appears twice in this verse has the alternate translation throughout the bible, "it is proper". 

And then on top of that, the word mkyl ("thereforward") is a combination of the roots mn ("from") and kl ("any/all"), so the whole verse is naturally dependent on context for meaning (i.e., from who/what/where/when; all/any of who/what/where/when).   Here the context is set in terms of new Jerusalem in the new age/world; so that is the specific where  and when  that sets the context for how "death/poison/oath will not be thereforward," in new Jerusalem in the new age/world.  This verse does not say that the new Jerusalem in the new world/age continues for perpetual time or exists outside of time.  To claim perpetual time or eternal time from this verse would be an assumption outside the literal text. 

Personally, I would not want to be the guy trying to limit the power of YHWH by arguing, 'well you know, Creator, you can't ever let New Jerusalem be utterly transformed or pass away because uhm my interpretation of Revelation 21:4 is that infinity of its existence was implied by the text even though it doesn't say infinity technically.'

Beware those who claim assumptions and interpretations are real.  Just ground yourself with the literal text, and then its plain to see that the promise of life is in a new world/age in the Messiah.  And that's a huge and worthwhile promise.  You live 70-years on earth, and pass your test with faith & works, and then you inherit a new world/age with all your brethren (everyone gets the same one reward just like in the parable of the servants above: a new world/age in the Messiah).  As for what happens specifically in that world/age, and who is rising and who is falling and who is transforming, that is beyond the horizon...

Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure").  All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."

[Ross]

1 Cor 15;26 " The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

1 Cor 15;49 " and just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the likeness of the man of heaven."

1 Cor 15;51 " Listen, I tell you a mystery: we will not all die, but we will all be changed- in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."

1 Cor 15;54,55 " So when this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, THEN THE SAYING THAT IS WRITTEN WILL BE FULFILLED. 
"Death has been swallowed up in victory"
" Where O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"

[Ross]

P.S  There is no personal work in any of this- this is all the provision/work of God through Christ.
Why we are told to take up the cross daily.
Paul said; It is no longer I who lives, but Christ Who lives in me.

[Ross]

Also interestingly, I.M.O grace is unmerited, unearned favour.
Ephesians 2;8,9 " For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, AND THIS IS NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, IT IS NOT BY WORKS SO THAT NO ONE WILL BOAST."

Paul says also in 1 Cor 15;10 But by the grace of God I am what I am and His grace toward me was not in vain. No I worked harder than any of them, YET NOT I BUT THE GRACE OF GOD THAT IS WITH ME."

[Ross]

True the church history has milked the concept of immortality.
Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and other history also promote immortality. The first lie recorded in the bible is the on to Eve saying she will never die.
The wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

[rosered]

The extent of YHWH's and Yahshua's life in space + time + other dimensions = beyond the horizon to my perspective. 

I don't see how anyone can claim that they have achieved such 'oneness' with Yahshua on earth that they have a golden ticket to infinite time, and moreover that in navigating infinity permanently attached to God, that they will never fall from grace, regardless of how many angels before them fell from grace as recorded in the bible. 

Is YHWH really inviting the Messiah's disciples to become infinitely indestructible? If the Messiah did not promise infinity literally to his apostles, l-e-t-t-e-r  f-o-r  l-e-t-t-e-r, then it is speculation to put words in his mouth.  I mean, who would argue that it is perhaps what he was trying to say, but he just didn't it say it explicitly for some reason??  It would be exponentially easy to say in different ways, 'oh by the way, guys, if you believe in me, I'm going to carry you for infinite time and there is absolutely no way even my Father can destroy you ever.'  <-- That would have done the job, but no, that's not in the bible.

  I believe you are missing out on  a lot of good things Greg ,

   Jesus when  speaking to his disciples   told them he had many things to tell them but were not able to bear them now    , this  was  before he was glorified

and under the law of death  still  , so many trip up on that   as long as anyone  even to this DAY  are still under the law  of death ,  the  Holy Spirit is not given yet 

The Holy Spirit  is the power of God to bind and loose on earth as it is in heaven      and very much become partakers of the divine SPIRIT  that never changes , never has  nor ever will  , it IS LIFE ITSELF     ,, 

JESUS holds death now    , HE went to the Cross   to become the  LORD of the dead and the living     HE IS THE POWER  and opened heaven  for all   

HIS   judgment is  now    He Himself   holds ''all things ''   there is nothing  outside of ''all things ''   being subject to the FATHER[Col1]

and'' ALL THINGS ''  are possible with GOD      .. 

[sheila]

well,Gregg,I only have this to say..I can understand somewhat the judging and measuring of the old heavens and old earth.....

  but I can not fathom someone in the judging and measuring of the New Creature/creation.....in Christ who has received the spirit..

   without measure.  Luke 14;28,29...I hope you can receive this..I want you to have life more abundantly......in agreement with

  both Father and Jesus Christ...  for brother you are basing all of your reasonings on the old creation..and not the New.


    John 3;34  for he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God;for God hath not given the spirit by measure unto him

[sheila]

our golden ticket[reed] Rev  21;15  and he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city,and the gates thereof and the wall

thereof. and the city lieth foursquare..and the length is as large as the breadth and the heigth.

  v 22 and I saw no temple there-in for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are it's temple of it.

v27 and there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth,neither whatsoever worketh abomination,or maketh a lie;

but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[greg]

1 Cor 15;26 " The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

1 Cor 15;49 " and just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the likeness of the man of heaven."

1 Cor 15;51 " Listen, I tell you a mystery: we will not all die, but we will all be changed- in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."

1 Cor 15;54,55 " So when this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, THEN THE SAYING THAT IS WRITTEN WILL BE FULFILLED. 
"Death has been swallowed up in victory"
" Where O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"

Those translations "imperishability" and "immortality" are non-literal translations.  For example the translations defy their root words as adjectives, which is why your translations are interpretive and non-literal.  What do I mean by defying a root word?  I mean that if something (a root) starts off as one thing (i.e., a wheat seed, a word, a deer, a world), it cannot become infinite just by conjugating it or making it plural.  Words don't work that way in any language.  You have to build on what you have and a word cannot be separated from its context.  A potato on earth multiplied by ten does not become an indestructible potato throughout all space in the universe.  A deer in Idaho multiplied by ten does not become infinity deer throughout multiverses.  A world/age multiplied by ten does not become an infinite universe of worlds.  However, flesh born into a world can survive death and be reborn in a new world.  But to say that 'flesh born into a world becomes infinitely indestructible' is to say something the bible does not say.

Also, the words in Corinthians are not the Messiah's words.  Those are the words of Shaul.  I intend to get back on topic in my next post, but in the interim..
   
Why did the Messiah's apostles (from his chosen 12) have so many disputes with Shaul, and why...

*moderation note: these 5-questions have been edited by greg in order to better comply with forum guidelines

(1) In Revelation 2:2, the Church of Ephesus is praised by the Messiah for rejecting "those who claim to be Apostles, and they are not".  So, why was Shaul rejected by the Church at Ephesus?

(2) Why did Shaul change his 'conversion story' by expanding it in more detail once he started growing in popularity/influence? 

(3) Why did Shaul use spiritual power to blind a man in Acts 13:11?  The Messiah and his chosen apostles never used spiritual power to blind anyone.  They were harmless as lambs.  So, what spirit empowered Shaul? 

(4) Why did Shaul say he was an apostle? He never actually walked with the Messiah.  In John 16:16, Yahshua specifies that the apostles will only see him again on earth for a little time after the crucifixion, but they won't see him again after the Spirit is given (at Pentecost).  That's a fulfilled prophecy at Pentecost.  And that is why the author of the Book of Revelation never actually saw the Messiah directly on earth, but rather only saw an angel sent by the Messiah. Revelation 22:8.  So, ... if Shaul the (ex)Pharisee is really telling the truth that he saw the Messiah on earth after Pentecost, then is he just an exception to the rule in John 16:16?

(5) Why do churches today call Shaul's writing "scripture", when the literal text of the bible plainly calls them just "writing".  The word for true scripture is "gospel" or "law".  Peter never referred to Shaul's writing as 'gospel' or 'law'. 

--

In the old days (i.e., Medieval times), a Christian could be excommunicated, even tortured and killed as a heathen, for asking questions like these (especially for publishing questions like these: http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/problem.htm ) that challenge the church's Christian-Babylonian dogmas: 'everything is immortal' and Paul's words are gospel because our church council said so. 

I hope to fare better here at Tentmaker Forum.

[greg]

  I believe you are missing out on  a lot of good things Greg ,

   Jesus when  speaking to his disciples   told them he had many things to tell them but were not able to bear them now    , this  was  before he was glorified

and under the law of death  still  , so many trip up on that   as long as anyone  even to this DAY  are still under the law  of death ,  the  Holy Spirit is not given yet 

The Holy Spirit  is the power of God to bind and loose on earth as it is in heaven      and very much become partakers of the divine SPIRIT  that never changes , never has  nor ever will  , it IS LIFE ITSELF     ,, 
...

It sounds like you're suggesting that I have not received the gift of the Holy Spirit.   That's a curious thing to suggest to someone online. 

There are people who claim the Spirit tells them that 'hell is everlasting', and then other people say the Spirit tells them 'hell is not everlasting', and others say the Spirit tells them 'there is no hell', and on, and on...

My goal in this thread is to cite the literal text of the gospel.   

"The One who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The One who comes from heaven is above all." John 3:31.

On a personal note to respond to your person suggestion... I feel that I have a direct relationship with the Messiah through the Holy Spirit.   But I do not claim to speak from the Holy Spirit.  My testimony is as "one who is from the earth ... and speaks as one from the earth". 

There are certain ways we learn as Christians to hear the Shepherd's voice, and we hear in different ways. I rely on the literal text of the bible as my foundation, so anything that contradicts the literal text is immediately red flagged for me. I've never heard trumpets, and I also do not hear voices in my head or see spirits. There is one thing though - a handful of times in my life I've closed my eyes and seen a light (a peaceful light transcending and outside and unaffected by the chaos of this world -- a world represented chaotically by a tangled and pulsing ball of rubber bands), but I cannot summon the light or control it, nor do I want to control the light that transcends this world.  If I think of death in the presence of the light, then the light immediately flees from me.  Now, why psychologically would I think of death during such a nice experience?  I don't know, but so it is with my human psychology -  so that's my testimony in a nutshell.  I really appreciate those experiences - very simple but powerful.

Other than that, I just often find myself gravitating toward synchronicity to either hear the Shepherd's voice or get into a flow that is positive, not in a dogmatic or ritualistic way or anything; just in the sense of keeping my eyes and ears open to what's happening around me in this world where the Father controls everything and counts every hair on our heads.

[rosered]

  I believe you are missing out on  a lot of good things Greg ,

   Jesus when  speaking to his disciples   told them he had many things to tell them but were not able to bear them now    , this  was  before he was glorified

and under the law of death  still  , so many trip up on that   as long as anyone  even to this DAY  are still under the law  of death ,  the  Holy Spirit is not given yet 

The Holy Spirit  is the power of God to bind and loose on earth as it is in heaven      and very much become partakers of the divine SPIRIT  that never changes , never has  nor ever will  , it IS LIFE ITSELF     ,, 
...

It sounds like you're suggesting that I have not received the gift of the Holy Spirit.   That's a curious thing to suggest to someone online. 

There are people who claim the Spirit tells them that 'hell is everlasting', and then other people say the Spirit tells them 'hell is not everlasting', and others say the Spirit tells them 'there is no hell', and on, and on...

My goal in this thread is to cite the literal text of the gospel.   

"The One who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The One who comes from heaven is above all." John 3:31.

On a personal note to respond to your person suggestion... I feel that I have a direct relationship with the Messiah through the Holy Spirit.   But I do not claim to speak from the Holy Spirit.  My testimony is as "one who is from the earth ... and speaks as one from the earth". 

There are certain ways we learn as Christians to hear the Shepherd's voice, and we hear in different ways. I rely on the literal text of the bible as my foundation, so anything that contradicts the literal text is immediately red flagged for me. I've never heard trumpets, and I also do not hear voices in my head or see spirits. There is one thing though - a handful of times in my life I've closed my eyes and seen a light (a peaceful light transcending and outside and unaffected by the chaos of this world -- a world represented chaotically by a tangled and pulsing ball of rubber bands), but I cannot summon the light or control it, nor do I want to control the light that transcends this world.  If I think of death in the presence of the light, then the light immediately flees from me.  Now, why psychologically would I think of death during such a nice experience?  I don't know, but so it is with my human psychology -  so that's my testimony in a nutshell.  I really appreciate those experiences - very simple but powerful.

Other than that, I just often find myself gravitating toward synchronicity to either hear the Shepherd's voice or get into a flow that is positive, not in a dogmatic or ritualistic way or anything; just in the sense of keeping my eyes and ears open to what's happening around me in this world where the Father controls everything and counts every hair on our heads.

Wow , so sorry  Greg  you got offended , I sure meant nothing by that , I just  meant because you are  being so literal  .

If that is your stance   , I bow out    with no offence      brother    I am  apologizing   to you   for not being more clear  in my original  post  .

I was referring to anyone still under the law of death , I sure  have , been bound in grave clothes [figuratively   speaking ]

  the Laws  are still in effect to me   and being fulfilled  , that was all  I   was meaning  , not  speaking to you personally , but generally

  God bless  you    :HeartThrob:

[greg]

Wow , so sorry  Greg  you got offended , I sure meant nothing by that , I just  meant because you are  being so literal  .

If that is your stance   , I bow out    with no offence      brother    I am  apologizing   to you   for not being more clear  in my original  post  .

I was referring to anyone still under the law of death , I sure  have , been bound in grave clothes [figuratively   speaking ]

  the Laws  are still in effect to me   and being fulfilled  , that was all  I   was meaning  , not  speaking to you personally , but generally

  God bless  you    :HeartThrob:

No worries.   :Peace2:

I think the literal text in the original language is the best evidence of the actual words spoken by the Messiah.  And His words are life.  I want to be as close to those words as possible.  I don't think the literal text of the gospel leads to death or legalism.

Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and incurable; who can know it?"

I think the error lies with the drunken heart that reads literal words and leavens them without the express permission of Spirit.

[rosered]

Wow , so sorry  Greg  you got offended , I sure meant nothing by that , I just  meant because you are  being so literal  .

If that is your stance   , I bow out    with no offence      brother    I am  apologizing   to you   for not being more clear  in my original  post  .

I was referring to anyone still under the law of death , I sure  have , been bound in grave clothes [figuratively   speaking ]

  the Laws  are still in effect to me   and being fulfilled  , that was all  I   was meaning  , not  speaking to you personally , but generally

  God bless  you    :HeartThrob:

No worries.   :Peace2:

I think the literal text in the original language is the best evidence of the actual words spoken by the Messiah.  And His words are life.  I want to be as close to those words as possible.  I don't think the literal text of the gospel leads to death or legalism.

Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and incurable; who can know it?"

I think the error lies with the drunken heart that reads literal words and leavens them without the express permission of Spirit.

  Thank you for that Greg ,
   I   agree  it takes the finger of     God   to write the laws in our hearts knowing the kingdom has come near us    and we hear His Voice and live    , we all must learn to hear what the   Holy Spirit is saying        :HeartThrob:

Luke 11 ...19"And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out?

So they will be your judges.


20"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


21"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.......

Jesus peace  to your  house

[marie glen]

"immortality" from 1 Corinthians 15:54

Strong's #G110 -
athanasia
a-thanasia
From a compound of G1 ("a" as a negative particle) and G2288  [a-thanasia]

aha, now I see where the word eu-thanasia comes from!

G2288 -
thanatos
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively)

Like saying a-thanatos - opposite of death- aka "this mortal / this dying, must put on life"

"mortal"
G2349 -
thnētos
liable to die; From G2348-"to die"

I think both the Greeks and the Hebrews (and the languages) thought in terms of present..

Example, who is being saved? those who are believing.. the predominant tense was present.. as opposed to past and future.

I believe the things of God (YHWH) are basically, simplicity.. but man makes all things complicated (a thing which, imo, stifles the gospel to other's ears; one thing that is:)

To me, God is life itself, the spark and force of, etc.. And He is also perfection.. to be imperfect - "miss the mark" translated "sin"/sinner is to be the opposite of life [which Life, is God, who is (also) Perfection].

So even in ages to ages.. beyond this one, if I were to embrace a falsehood and become imperfect.. I would have once again moved away from perfection, into imperfection, the opposite of Life/God. :eek: :eek:

That's why I believe or that is, one reason why I believe this life of human history and its lesson, including when the things (man's empires) we build on sand, collapse.. or crash and burn as the saying goes - is all very important as it is all God's tool for deeply engraving upon every heart and mind the full understanding of the nature of good from evil ..which is ultimately life from death, aka, nonlife - We are learning the unavoidable lesson that any tiny speck of imperfection/differing with Him in any way, is the opposite of life.. Lesson - Go Not That Way. An eternal and foundational lesson being built into us. (imo)The absolutely FIRST LAW of LIFE and physics/metaphysics.. - God iS Life. (And Perfection.) ...besides love (all of it) and light, with NO darkness at all.. :Peace2:

The smoke of destruction (within our memories) rising up for ever and ever.. age unto age, unto age.. built in, written upon our heart, mind and psyche, hopefully never to be erased nor forgotten.. Oh death where iS thy sting?!

[rosered]

Also interestingly, I.M.O grace is unmerited, unearned favour.
Ephesians 2;8,9 " For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, AND THIS IS NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, IT IS NOT BY WORKS SO THAT NO ONE WILL BOAST."

Paul says also in 1 Cor 15;10 But by the grace of God I am what I am and His grace toward me was not in vain. No I worked harder than any of them, YET NOT I BUT THE GRACE OF GOD THAT IS WITH ME."

   :thumbsup:

Thank you Ross for that ...


I see Paul's  testimony  expounds  directly on  Jesus teachings and 

did  suffer many things  for the  Lords name sake ...  and  fulfilled   the scriptures of old   I will  cause the blind to see   and those that see  shall be made blind

  John 9 Spiritual Sight and Blindness

...38And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him. 39And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."

40Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"...

   Pauls , but the Light of the Lords coming to Him blinded him and was guided by the hand   till given sight  on the  road to Damascus   Act22

   
God bless ,,