Mark 10:30 has a famous promise, that disciples who give up good things in this world for the messiah's sake will receive 100-times more in the world to come. This promise helps show the character of the Father, as One who favors justice and measurement.
Literal Mark 10:30, "There is no man who has left houses or brothers or sisters... because of me and my gospel and not will receive one hundred times the houses and brothers and sisters... ubEalma ("and in the world/age") to come life dEalm ("that is to a world/age").
Notice first that the text says 100-times more in the world to come, not infinitely more.
But secondly (and more importantly to language scholars), Mark 10:30 is a serious reality check to preachers of infinity, because it defines the next world/age as a finite world/age like the present one. The text says so literally if you know how to read Greek or Aramaic. As shown below, the Greek & Aramaic are in total harmony here on the grammar.
The key here is that the literal grammar is specifically saying that the world/age to come is a finite world/age, because we read the definite article Ealma ("the world/age") in the very same expression to expressly define the indefinite Ealm ("a world/age"). If you don't study language, this fact may not sound important, but I assure you, it is enormously important. Aramaic and Greek translators who use non-literal definitions are forced to awkwardly ignore this grammar in Mark 10:30 to fit their cherry-picked translations.
That is why Mark 10:30 provides a reality check to preachers of man's infinite soul, and it is the elephant in the room for non-literalists.
The Greek of Mark 10:30 reveals the exact same conclusion as the Aramaic because the Greek also uses the definite article (iota) to qualify the verse "and in αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) ("the age/world") that is coming life αιωνιον (ah-ee-on-ee-on) ("age-during")."
By contrast, the non-literal Greek translation of Mark 10:30 is "and in αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) ("the age") that is coming life αιωνιον (ah-ee-on-ee-on) ("everlasting")." The non-literal translation doesn't make sense ultimately; it tries to squeeze everlasting life into a single world or age.
Indeed, this Greek word αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) (just like the Aramaic Ealma) is found throughout the gospel translated as "world" and "age". So, it is hypocrisy to try to make the word infinite in Mark 10:30 when it is plainly finite everywhere else in the bible.
So Mark 10:30 is excellent evidence in the gospel to prove that the next age (or world) to come is not everlasting. Again, all ages/worlds are by definition finite or limited in space and time. Only the Father lives indefinitely.
Indeed, Mark 10:30 does not even attempt to limit the Father in any way, it simply provides further support for the proof that the Greek and Aramaic words for age and world are categorically finite. So if the gospel is ever going to describe something eternal or infinite or perpetual, the gospel needs to use different words or special words, rather than just describing a future age or world. And indeed those different and special words are used in the bible but only to describe the Father living perpetually and eternally (i.e., Isaiah 43:10, Psalm 102:25-27), not to describe punishment. Punishment is described exclusively with finite words.
In reading the bible literally, I've never found any promises of unconditional everlasting life. Rather, I only see those statements in ancient secular sources (ie., from the Pharisees and Greek mystics who thought everything was eternal).
In reading the bible literally, I see promises about life are specifically in reference to a world/age to come, such as John 10:28, which reads uana yhb ana lhun Khya dlEalm ula nabdun lEalm ("And I give, I am to them life that is to a world/age, and they will not perish to a world/age")."
This language is a very specific promise about a world/age to come. If the messiah was going to promise that someone will never perish ever, then the text should instead say la nabdun mThum ("they will not perish ever"), or something similar to that.
Here is another example that proves this point. John 11:25, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, even if he should die he will live. And whoever lives and believes in me to a world/age will not die."
Once again we see the promise of life is very specifically in reference to the world/age to come. The indefinite form of the word is used Ealm ("a world/age") rather than the definite form Ealma ("this world/age").
If you depart from the Creator you will eventually die because that which is outside the Creator is destroyed in its appropriate season. See scriptural cites below. Indeed, there are many examples where angels choose to leave the rising and engage in the falling. And in that falling, they do indeed die. Jude 6, Genesis 6, Revelation 12. And as for man...
Proverbs 12:7, "The wicked are overthrown, and are no more, but the house of the righteous shall stand."
Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."
Proverbs 24:20, "The evil have no future. The lamp of the wicked will go out."
In the psalms, King David describes the wicked "like chaff that the wind drives away... the wicked will perish" (Psalm 1:4 and 1:6). And see how he describes the wicked as dead men that are not even remembered in Psalms 9:6 and 34:16. David explains that the wicked "fade like the grass, and wither like an herb" (Psalm 37:2). They "shall be cut off...and...will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there. (Psalm 37:9–10). "The wicked perish...like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20). "The transgressors shall be altogether destroyed" (Psalm 37:38). The wicked are analogized to finite things like grass, and then the text explains that they are destroyed as finite things are destroyed.
Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh? He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time...they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."
Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every worker of wickedness shall be chaff. And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them."
Deuteronomy 32:4, "His work is perfect, for all his ways are justice: a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is He."
Psalm 7:11, "God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times."
Jeremiah 17:10, "I Yahweh search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people according to their ways, according to what their actions deserve."
Who would presume they deserve everlasting life for infinite time simply because they passed one test with one life on one planet?
mixing law and grace...no one presumed to desrve....it is a free gift. ones written to our old man..one is promised to our new man
the 100 fold speaks of the celestial body[outer court] new soul[holy] and most holy[new spirit] 100 100 100
Yahwey does search the hearts..and this is the judgement of Yahwey..as all men have bore the image of the corrupt
so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorruptible. God bound all men in disobedience in order to have mercy on all.
eat from the fruit of the TOKOGAE and theres death in the pot. mix grace/law..death in the pot.....throw a handful of fine flour in the pot
GRACE..then men can eat the word of God and live
the parable of the workers in the vineyard...all got the same wage...some felt they 'deserved' more....
the Kingdom of Heaven is like.....a woman took leavening and hid it..in 3 measures of flour..until all the flour was leavened.
the leavening is Grace/free gift of God..that lifts up[Christ] and raises all men. the 3 measures are 30,60,and 100=until all
Amen Sheila.. grace! I've wondered if three measures of meal isn't also three harvests.. each in his own order, Jesus the firstfruit, then those that are His at His coming and then at the end when He hands the kingdom over to the Father.. grace leavens the whole lump..
I learned about that verse here at tentmaker forum! and it really hit home with me.. 1 Cor. 15:22-28
I know that ultimately God will be merciful to all.. This drama (imo, that is) is being acted out. Yes, the wicked will perish from off the earth.. but God resurrects all. And I can't help but think surely there must be purpose to that (the resurrecting of all). More and more i'm finding the bible reverberates with u.r. ...with resurrection. (wow, another R.. universal reconciliation, universal repentance, universal redemption, universal resurrection..)
:Peace2:
Quote from: sheila on January 27, 2016, 10:38:48 PM
...
the parable of the workers in the vineyard...all got the same wage...some felt they 'deserved' more....
Why was this worker upset who labored more? Was it because his 'infinite time' reward was the same as the other laborer's 'infinite time'? He wanted the other guy to get infinity minus 4 perhaps? In this parable, why does the Messiah use measured examples, two laborers work for limited hours of the day, and each receive a limited reward of one coin (a dinar = day's wage). Same for the parable of the talents: 5 talents well invested earns that servant a large reward, but not an infinite reward.
Realizing the Father's quality of measurement and proportionality is important. He is a mathematician too.
If the Messiah wants to promise a disciple everlasting life, such that he will never ever fall from grace, then why not use language like this quote from Psalm 102:27, "Your years shall not be ended." The psalmist said it about YHWH. It's easy to say in any language... Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic. Yet you can't find it any of these languages in the literal bible text about anyone other than YHWH.
I think we are supposed to be humble here on earth. We are not supposed to claim, like the Pharisees did, and the Greek mystics did, and the Egyptian sorcerers did, that we are everlasting. We don't get to labor on earth for 70-years or so in exchange for everlasting life. Rather, the best we can do is labor, and pray to be in harmony with He who has perpetual life, and pray we'll stay in harmony as we navigate from age/world to age/world. And know at all times whether we are rising or falling, that YHWH will do justice.
Anything beyond the literal promises in the gospel is just people talking interpretations. And in particular, this leavening of the words "aion" and 'olam' and 'Ealma' has produced some very drunken dogmas over the centuries, as religious men presume they drink from the Babylonian cup of 'immortality'.
How much longer until YHWH pours out that cup?
But you forget Jesus..and that the Father granted Him to have life in himself....'I AM the resurrection= 8 gematria/ infinity layed down
First/many/Omega...and it is said...He takes away ALL the worlds sins..of which death is the sting..so why should they ever die?
a High Priest after the order of Melchezedek
Ouroboros, as a sign of infinity..is the serpent swallowing his tail...but Christ crushed His head..thus the serpent has His end....
sin and death has it's end
over ALL the POWER of the enemy authority is given in Christ..and if we are in Christ's body/raised in His image and likeness/
and in the image and likeness of the Father and we are ONE..then life without end has come
and...that which is mortal...must put on immortality.
*Mod note - this post is left to stand as-is at present, to show context of ensuing posts. It is clearly against TM Forum guidelines and may be edited at a later date. [update - edited by original poster]
The extent of YHWH's and Yahshua's life in space + time + other dimensions = beyond the horizon to my perspective.
I don't see how anyone can claim that they have achieved such 'oneness' with Yahshua on earth that they have a golden ticket to infinite time, and moreover that in navigating infinity permanently attached to God, that they will never fall from grace, regardless of how many angels before them fell from grace as recorded in the bible.
Is YHWH really inviting the Messiah's disciples to become infinitely indestructible? If the Messiah did not promise infinity literally to his apostles, l-e-t-t-e-r f-o-r l-e-t-t-e-r, then it is speculation to put words in his mouth. I mean, who would argue that it is perhaps what he was trying to say, but he just didn't it say it explicitly for some reason?? It would be exponentially easy to say in different ways, 'oh by the way, guys, if you believe in me, I'm going to carry you for infinite time and there is absolutely no way even my Father can destroy you ever.' <-- That would have done the job, but no, that's not in the bible.
Fallen angels are in the bible though, and they previously experienced grace in heaven. A huge portion of the bible is devoted to showing their destruction and death, and then after Revelation 21:8 describes the "second death", they are no longer mentioned in the literal text, because they are dead and gone. It would be an assumption to assume they are not gone.
The most commonly misunderstood verse for immortality of men is Revelation 21:4, uhu nlKha kl dmEa mn Eaynyhun umuTha la nhua mkyl ula abla ula rub aula kaba Thub nhua Eal apyh. Again, I read letter for letter in the language of the apostles, so here is my hyper-literal translation,"And he will wipe away all/any tears from their eyes, and death/poison/oath will not be thereforward and not mourning/sorrow/penance/truly and not crying/uproar/clamoring/resounding/pleading/contending/rebuking and not pain/suffering/sickness/consumption/adversary again/return will be upon His/its faces." Also note: the phrase "and not" that appears twice in this verse has the alternate translation throughout the bible, "it is proper".
And then on top of that, the word mkyl ("thereforward") is a combination of the roots mn ("from") and kl ("any/all"), so the whole verse is naturally dependent on context for meaning (i.e., from who/what/where/when; all/any of who/what/where/when). Here the context is set in terms of new Jerusalem in the new age/world; so that is the specific where and when that sets the context for how "death/poison/oath will not be thereforward," in new Jerusalem in the new age/world. This verse does not say that the new Jerusalem in the new world/age continues for perpetual time or exists outside of time. To claim perpetual time or eternal time from this verse would be an assumption outside the literal text.
Personally, I would not want to be the guy trying to limit the power of YHWH by arguing, 'well you know, Creator, you can't ever let New Jerusalem be utterly transformed or pass away because uhm my interpretation of Revelation 21:4 is that infinity of its existence was implied by the text even though it doesn't say infinity technically.'
Beware those who claim assumptions and interpretations are real. Just ground yourself with the literal text, and then its plain to see that the promise of life is in a new world/age in the Messiah. And that's a huge and worthwhile promise. You live 70-years on earth, and pass your test with faith & works, and then you inherit a new world/age with all your brethren (everyone gets the same one reward just like in the parable of the servants above: a new world/age in the Messiah). As for what happens specifically in that world/age, and who is rising and who is falling and who is transforming, that is beyond the horizon...
Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
1 Cor 15;26 " The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
1 Cor 15;49 " and just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the likeness of the man of heaven."
1 Cor 15;51 " Listen, I tell you a mystery: we will not all die, but we will all be changed- in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."
1 Cor 15;54,55 " So when this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, THEN THE SAYING THAT IS WRITTEN WILL BE FULFILLED.
"Death has been swallowed up in victory"
" Where O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
P.S There is no personal work in any of this- this is all the provision/work of God through Christ.
Why we are told to take up the cross daily.
Paul said; It is no longer I who lives, but Christ Who lives in me.
Also interestingly, I.M.O grace is unmerited, unearned favour.
Ephesians 2;8,9 " For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, AND THIS IS NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, IT IS NOT BY WORKS SO THAT NO ONE WILL BOAST."
Paul says also in 1 Cor 15;10 But by the grace of God I am what I am and His grace toward me was not in vain. No I worked harder than any of them, YET NOT I BUT THE GRACE OF GOD THAT IS WITH ME."
True the church history has milked the concept of immortality.
Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and other history also promote immortality. The first lie recorded in the bible is the on to Eve saying she will never die.
The wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
QuoteThe extent of YHWH's and Yahshua's life in space + time + other dimensions = beyond the horizon to my perspective.
I don't see how anyone can claim that they have achieved such 'oneness' with Yahshua on earth that they have a golden ticket to infinite time, and moreover that in navigating infinity permanently attached to God, that they will never fall from grace, regardless of how many angels before them fell from grace as recorded in the bible.
Is YHWH really inviting the Messiah's disciples to become infinitely indestructible? If the Messiah did not promise infinity literally to his apostles, l-e-t-t-e-r f-o-r l-e-t-t-e-r, then it is speculation to put words in his mouth. I mean, who would argue that it is perhaps what he was trying to say, but he just didn't it say it explicitly for some reason?? It would be exponentially easy to say in different ways, 'oh by the way, guys, if you believe in me, I'm going to carry you for infinite time and there is absolutely no way even my Father can destroy you ever.' <-- That would have done the job, but no, that's not in the bible.
I believe you are missing out on a lot of good things Greg ,
Jesus when speaking to his disciples told them he had many things to tell them but were not able to bear them now , this was before he was glorified
and under the law of death still , so many trip up on that as long as anyone even to this DAY are still under the law of death , the Holy Spirit is not given yet
The Holy Spirit is the power of God to bind and loose on earth as it is in heaven and very much become partakers of the divine SPIRIT that never changes , never has nor ever will , it IS LIFE ITSELF ,,
JESUS holds death now , HE went to the Cross to become the LORD of the dead and the living HE IS THE POWER and opened heaven for all
HIS judgment is now He Himself holds ''all things '' there is nothing outside of ''all things '' being subject to the FATHER[Col1]
and'' ALL THINGS '' are possible with GOD ..
well,Gregg,I only have this to say..I can understand somewhat the judging and measuring of the old heavens and old earth.....
but I can not fathom someone in the judging and measuring of the New Creature/creation.....in Christ who has received the spirit..
without measure. Luke 14;28,29...I hope you can receive this..I want you to have life more abundantly......in agreement with
both Father and Jesus Christ... for brother you are basing all of your reasonings on the old creation..and not the New.
John 3;34 for he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God;for God hath not given the spirit by measure unto him
our golden ticket[reed] Rev 21;15 and he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city,and the gates thereof and the wall
thereof. and the city lieth foursquare..and the length is as large as the breadth and the heigth.
v 22 and I saw no temple there-in for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are it's temple of it.
v27 and there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth,neither whatsoever worketh abomination,or maketh a lie;
but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Quote from: Ross on January 28, 2016, 09:47:08 AM
1 Cor 15;26 " The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
1 Cor 15;49 " and just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the likeness of the man of heaven."
1 Cor 15;51 " Listen, I tell you a mystery: we will not all die, but we will all be changed- in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."
1 Cor 15;54,55 " So when this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, THEN THE SAYING THAT IS WRITTEN WILL BE FULFILLED.
"Death has been swallowed up in victory"
" Where O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
Those translations "imperishability" and "immortality" are non-literal translations. For example the translations defy their root words as adjectives, which is why your translations are interpretive and non-literal. What do I mean by defying a root word? I mean that if something (a root) starts off as one thing (i.e., a wheat seed, a word, a deer, a world), it cannot become infinite just by conjugating it or making it plural. Words don't work that way in any language. You have to build on what you have and a word cannot be separated from its context. A potato on earth multiplied by ten does not become an indestructible potato throughout all space in the universe. A deer in Idaho multiplied by ten does not become infinity deer throughout multiverses. A world/age multiplied by ten does not become an infinite universe of worlds. However, flesh born into a world can survive death and be reborn in a new world. But to say that 'flesh born into a world becomes infinitely indestructible' is to say something the bible does not say.
Also, the words in Corinthians are not the Messiah's words. Those are the words of Shaul. I intend to get back on topic in my next post, but in the interim..
Why did the Messiah's apostles (from his chosen 12) have so many disputes with Shaul, and why...
*moderation note: these 5-questions have been edited by greg in order to better comply with forum guidelines
(1) In Revelation 2:2, the Church of Ephesus is praised by the Messiah for rejecting "those who claim to be Apostles, and they are not". So, why was Shaul rejected by the Church at Ephesus?
(2) Why did Shaul change his 'conversion story' by expanding it in more detail once he started growing in popularity/influence?
(3) Why did Shaul use spiritual power to blind a man in Acts 13:11? The Messiah and his chosen apostles never used spiritual power to blind anyone. They were harmless as lambs. So, what spirit empowered Shaul?
(4) Why did Shaul say he was an apostle? He never actually walked with the Messiah. In John 16:16, Yahshua specifies that the apostles will
only see him again on earth for a little time after the crucifixion, but they won't see him again after the Spirit is given (at Pentecost). That's a fulfilled prophecy at Pentecost. And that is why the author of the Book of Revelation never actually saw the Messiah directly on earth, but rather only saw
an angel sent by the Messiah. Revelation 22:8. So, ... if Shaul the (ex)Pharisee is really telling the truth that he saw the Messiah on earth after Pentecost, then is he just an exception to the rule in John 16:16?
(5) Why do churches today call Shaul's writing "scripture", when the literal text of the bible plainly calls them just "writing". The word for true scripture is "gospel" or "law". Peter never referred to Shaul's writing as 'gospel' or 'law'.
--
In the old days (i.e., Medieval times), a Christian could be excommunicated, even tortured and killed as a heathen, for asking questions like these (especially for publishing questions like these: http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/problem.htm ) that challenge the church's Christian-Babylonian dogmas: 'everything is immortal' and Paul's words are gospel because our church council said so.
I hope to fare better here at Tentmaker Forum.
Quote from: rosered on January 28, 2016, 01:50:03 PM
I believe you are missing out on a lot of good things Greg ,
Jesus when speaking to his disciples told them he had many things to tell them but were not able to bear them now , this was before he was glorified
and under the law of death still , so many trip up on that as long as anyone even to this DAY are still under the law of death , the Holy Spirit is not given yet
The Holy Spirit is the power of God to bind and loose on earth as it is in heaven and very much become partakers of the divine SPIRIT that never changes , never has nor ever will , it IS LIFE ITSELF ,,
...
It sounds like you're suggesting that I have not received the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's a curious thing to suggest to someone online.
There are people who claim the Spirit tells them that 'hell is everlasting', and then other people say the Spirit tells them 'hell is not everlasting', and others say the Spirit tells them 'there is no hell', and on, and on...
My goal in this thread is to cite the literal text of the gospel.
"The One who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The One who comes from heaven is above all." John 3:31.
On a personal note to respond to your person suggestion... I feel that I have a direct relationship with the Messiah through the Holy Spirit. But I do not claim to speak from the Holy Spirit. My testimony is as "one who is from the earth ... and speaks as one from the earth".
There are certain ways we learn as Christians to hear the Shepherd's voice, and we hear in different ways. I rely on the literal text of the bible as my foundation, so anything that contradicts the literal text is immediately red flagged for me. I've never heard trumpets, and I also do not hear voices in my head or see spirits. There is one thing though - a handful of times in my life I've closed my eyes and seen a light (a peaceful light transcending and outside and unaffected by the chaos of this world -- a world represented chaotically by a tangled and pulsing ball of rubber bands), but I cannot summon the light or control it, nor do I want to control the light that transcends this world. If I think of death in the presence of the light, then the light immediately flees from me. Now, why psychologically would I think of death during such a nice experience? I don't know, but so it is with my human psychology - so that's my testimony in a nutshell. I really appreciate those experiences - very simple but powerful.
Other than that, I just often find myself gravitating toward synchronicity to either hear the Shepherd's voice or get into a flow that is positive, not in a dogmatic or ritualistic way or anything; just in the sense of keeping my eyes and ears open to what's happening around me in this world where the Father controls everything and counts every hair on our heads.
Quote from: greg on January 28, 2016, 07:10:59 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 28, 2016, 01:50:03 PM
I believe you are missing out on a lot of good things Greg ,
Jesus when speaking to his disciples told them he had many things to tell them but were not able to bear them now , this was before he was glorified
and under the law of death still , so many trip up on that as long as anyone even to this DAY are still under the law of death , the Holy Spirit is not given yet
The Holy Spirit is the power of God to bind and loose on earth as it is in heaven and very much become partakers of the divine SPIRIT that never changes , never has nor ever will , it IS LIFE ITSELF ,,
...
It sounds like you're suggesting that I have not received the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's a curious thing to suggest to someone online.
There are people who claim the Spirit tells them that 'hell is everlasting', and then other people say the Spirit tells them 'hell is not everlasting', and others say the Spirit tells them 'there is no hell', and on, and on...
My goal in this thread is to cite the literal text of the gospel.
"The One who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The One who comes from heaven is above all." John 3:31.
On a personal note to respond to your person suggestion... I feel that I have a direct relationship with the Messiah through the Holy Spirit. But I do not claim to speak from the Holy Spirit. My testimony is as "one who is from the earth ... and speaks as one from the earth".
There are certain ways we learn as Christians to hear the Shepherd's voice, and we hear in different ways. I rely on the literal text of the bible as my foundation, so anything that contradicts the literal text is immediately red flagged for me. I've never heard trumpets, and I also do not hear voices in my head or see spirits. There is one thing though - a handful of times in my life I've closed my eyes and seen a light (a peaceful light transcending and outside and unaffected by the chaos of this world -- a world represented chaotically by a tangled and pulsing ball of rubber bands), but I cannot summon the light or control it, nor do I want to control the light that transcends this world. If I think of death in the presence of the light, then the light immediately flees from me. Now, why psychologically would I think of death during such a nice experience? I don't know, but so it is with my human psychology - so that's my testimony in a nutshell. I really appreciate those experiences - very simple but powerful.
Other than that, I just often find myself gravitating toward synchronicity to either hear the Shepherd's voice or get into a flow that is positive, not in a dogmatic or ritualistic way or anything; just in the sense of keeping my eyes and ears open to what's happening around me in this world where the Father controls everything and counts every hair on our heads.
Wow , so sorry Greg you got offended , I sure meant nothing by that , I just meant because you are being so literal .
If that is your stance , I bow out with no offence brother I am apologizing to you for not being more clear in my original post .
I was referring to anyone still under the law of death , I sure have , been bound in grave clothes [figuratively speaking ]
the Laws are still in effect to me and being fulfilled , that was all I was meaning , not speaking to you personally , but generally
God bless you :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on January 28, 2016, 09:20:05 PM
Wow , so sorry Greg you got offended , I sure meant nothing by that , I just meant because you are being so literal .
If that is your stance , I bow out with no offence brother I am apologizing to you for not being more clear in my original post .
I was referring to anyone still under the law of death , I sure have , been bound in grave clothes [figuratively speaking ]
the Laws are still in effect to me and being fulfilled , that was all I was meaning , not speaking to you personally , but generally
God bless you :HeartThrob:
No worries. :Peace2:
I think the literal text in the original language is the best evidence of the actual words spoken by the Messiah. And His words are life. I want to be as close to those words as possible. I don't think the literal text of the gospel leads to death or legalism.
Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and incurable; who can know it?"
I think the error lies with the drunken heart that reads literal words and leavens them without the express permission of Spirit.
Quote from: greg on January 28, 2016, 09:43:52 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 28, 2016, 09:20:05 PM
Wow , so sorry Greg you got offended , I sure meant nothing by that , I just meant because you are being so literal .
If that is your stance , I bow out with no offence brother I am apologizing to you for not being more clear in my original post .
I was referring to anyone still under the law of death , I sure have , been bound in grave clothes [figuratively speaking ]
the Laws are still in effect to me and being fulfilled , that was all I was meaning , not speaking to you personally , but generally
God bless you :HeartThrob:
No worries. :Peace2:
I think the literal text in the original language is the best evidence of the actual words spoken by the Messiah. And His words are life. I want to be as close to those words as possible. I don't think the literal text of the gospel leads to death or legalism.
Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and incurable; who can know it?"
I think the error lies with the drunken heart that reads literal words and leavens them without the express permission of Spirit.
Thank you for that Greg ,
I agree it takes the finger of God to write the laws in our hearts knowing the kingdom has come near us and we hear His Voice and live , we all must learn to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying :HeartThrob:
Luke 11 ...19"And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out?
So they will be your judges.
20"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
21"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.......
Jesus peace to your house
"immortality" from 1 Corinthians 15:54
Strong's #G110 -
athanasia
a-thanasia
From a compound of G1 ("a" as a negative particle) and G2288 [a-thanasia]
aha, now I see where the word eu-thanasia comes from!
G2288 -
thanatos
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively)
Like saying a-thanatos - opposite of death- aka "this mortal / this dying, must put on life"
"mortal"
G2349 -
thnētos
liable to die; From G2348-"to die"
I think both the Greeks and the Hebrews (and the languages) thought in terms of present..
Example, who is being saved? those who are believing.. the predominant tense was present.. as opposed to past and future.
I believe the things of God (YHWH) are basically, simplicity.. but man makes all things complicated (a thing which, imo, stifles the gospel to other's ears; one thing that is:)
To me, God is life itself, the spark and force of, etc.. And He is also perfection.. to be imperfect - "miss the mark" translated "sin"/sinner is to be the opposite of life [which Life, is God, who is (also) Perfection].
So even in ages to ages.. beyond this one, if I were to embrace a falsehood and become imperfect.. I would have once again moved away from perfection, into imperfection, the opposite of Life/God. :eek: :eek:
That's why I believe or that is, one reason why I believe this life of human history and its lesson, including when the things (man's empires) we build on sand, collapse.. or crash and burn as the saying goes - is all very important as it is all God's tool for deeply engraving upon every heart and mind the full understanding of the nature of good from evil ..which is ultimately life from death, aka, nonlife - We are learning the unavoidable lesson that any tiny speck of imperfection/differing with Him in any way, is the opposite of life.. Lesson - Go Not That Way. An eternal and foundational lesson being built into us. (imo)The absolutely FIRST LAW of LIFE and physics/metaphysics.. - God iS Life. (And Perfection.) ...besides love (all of it) and light, with NO darkness at all.. :Peace2:
The smoke of destruction (within our memories) rising up for ever and ever.. age unto age, unto age.. built in, written upon our heart, mind and psyche, hopefully never to be erased nor forgotten.. Oh death where iS thy sting?!
Quote from: Ross on January 28, 2016, 09:54:58 AM
Also interestingly, I.M.O grace is unmerited, unearned favour.
Ephesians 2;8,9 " For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, AND THIS IS NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, IT IS NOT BY WORKS SO THAT NO ONE WILL BOAST."
Paul says also in 1 Cor 15;10 But by the grace of God I am what I am and His grace toward me was not in vain. No I worked harder than any of them, YET NOT I BUT THE GRACE OF GOD THAT IS WITH ME."
:thumbsup:
Thank you Ross for that ...
I see Paul's testimony expounds directly on Jesus teachings and
did suffer many things for the Lords name sake ... and fulfilled the scriptures of old I will cause the blind to see and those that see shall be made blind
John 9 Spiritual Sight and Blindness
...38And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him. 39And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."
40Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"...
Pauls , but the Light of the Lords coming to Him blinded him and was guided by the hand till given sight on the road to Damascus Act22
God bless ,,
there are both good and bad watchers/ the bad are held on the fifth heaven,Greg..called gregori...the angels that fell..and others that are
held on the 2nd heaven. They asked Enoch to pray for them. we know that eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
brings death...both in Heaven and earth. Thus the reason God creates new Heavens and New earth..and the old is passing away.
Quote from: marie glen on January 28, 2016, 10:55:57 PM
"immortality" from 1 Corinthians 15:54
Strong's #G110 -
athanasia
a-thanasia
From a compound of G1 ("a" as a negative particle) and G2288 [a-thanasia]
aha, now I see where the word eu-thanasia comes from!
G2288 -
thanatos
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively)
Like saying a-thanatos - opposite of death- aka "this mortal / this dying, must put on life"
"mortal"
G2349 -
thnētos
liable to die; From G2348-"to die"
I think both the Greeks and the Hebrews (and the languages) thought in terms of present..
...
Feel free to read Greek literature for yourself. They used these words in reference to both 'gods' and 'men' who were killing each other and dying all the time.
Here is Philo, "Humans are immortal by reason of their heavenly nature, but just as degrees in this divine nature exist, degrees of immortality also exist."
Humans don't know. These Greek philosophers didn't know; they were just making it up as they went along, and
athanasia was one of the words they liked to throw around. By itself it didn't mean much, just like today, "best friends forever!" ... "this car ride is taking forever"... "[playing video game] ugh, that guy just will not die"
I'm no sure what to make of this thread...
Greg, so you don't believe any of Paul's writings are scripture and you insinuate he is a liar, etc.
I wont excommunicate you :) buuuut that to me is a slippery slope.
Everyone on here has commonalities and areas where we disagree and so far all disagreements have been pretty civil which I love. This place is exceptional in that way.
For me, Paul's conversion is one of the reasons I believe in Christianity. He persecuted and killed Christians and then had a change of heart. What could have brought about such a change if not God himself? His conversion is much like many of our own experiences where God reaches out to us in our wretchedness and when He does this, who can refuse His love, and His plan for us?
Some of the most beautiful writings in the bible are in Paul's letters. Descriptions of love and of God's plan.
The criticisms you cite about him are similar to criticisms that atheists use to try to disprove the bible (small inconsistencies such as when the synoptic gospels are telling the same story but there are different details, etc.). Paul wasn't perfect but no apostle was. Peter denied Jesus and had a bit of a temper. They often didn't understand Jesus even when he was there speaking to them directly. Jesus rebuked them at times.
Paul's writings weren't considered scripture because only OT was scripture at that time if I am not mistaken. The gospels hadn't even been written yet.
The fact that he didn't write Jesus's biography is sort of a non-issue to me. He wasn't an apostle until after the crucifixion, and he was writing letters to churches regarding specific things. I'm assuming the churches already knew Jesus's basic life story, he didn't need to rehash it for them.
Some of my initial thoughts.
Also, it seems like you are an annihilationist. I do agree that some passages seem to point to this. You've heard all the scripture that UR believers cite so I won't go into that again.
To me, I believe in UR because I feel that God showed me that was his plan (through scripture) when I prayed to Him for answers. I agree with what you said tho, about how some people claim the Holy Spirit told them this or that and how do we really know, Etc. So obviously you have to compare it to scripture, properly translated and in the right context, so that is awesome that you are passionate about doing that.
Another reason I believe in UR other than scripture is because it shows God has a plan. Destroying part of His creation to me implies it was faulty, and God is perfect. I don't want to be presumptuous or arrogant and think I have all the answers, I know we are mere humans and the sliver that we understand "seeing thru the glass darkly" is just that, murky and without full understanding. I try to be humble and trust God.
I have someone who was very close to me my whole life, my brother, who I love dearly. He won't talk to me anymore and I keep reaching out to him in love. I hold out hope for the day that all are reconciled because without reconciliation, I would imagine many people would feel loss and yearning just as I do. Wouldn't God, who loves us and created us, feel the most loss of all, to have to destroy his creation that he loves so?
Yes, man is fallen and evil and we are all pretty hopeless.
It is impossible for flesh to please God...
BUT
With God all things are possible.
Has that been openly said on this thread (Paul's writings are not scripture)? If it has, that's clearly against forum guidelines and not allowed as ongoing insistence/basis for ongoing teaching. I've been scanning this thread because I've sensed a spirit of contention in it, but I must have missed the denial of scripture. I'll look again, and I'd remind that let's share "as I understand/in my opinion etc., not as an absolute expert or having the final word - which of course can create unnecessary conflict and dissension. Thanks.
OK, I see the post. I'd read the beginning and end of it, missed the middle part in question.
greg, you will indeed "fare better at Tentmaker Forum" as you won't be put to death no matter what. Never happened, as far as I know (if it's happened, I wasn't told about it :laugh:). Please review the Forum Guidelines regarding the scriptures and textual criticism. Simply, we don't go with the idea that huge chunks of the scriptures (60-70% of the NT) are lies. Thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on January 29, 2016, 02:55:31 AM
OK, I see the post. I'd read the beginning and end of it, missed the middle part in question.
greg, you will indeed "fare better at Tentmaker Forum" as you won't be put to death no matter what. Never happened, as far as I know. On a lesser level, you will also generally do better if you abide by forum guidelines. Please review the Forum Guidelines regarding the scriptures and textual criticism. Simply, we don't go with the idea that huge chunks of the scriptures (60-70 of the NT) are lies. Thanks.
Hi jabcat, the one I was replying to was #18. Thanks :)
I agree with you about the application of ealma to a finite world age to come. This is all over the scriptures
Eph 1:19 These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
But Paul also speaks of "ages to come".
Eph 2:7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
So we, the first-fruits, will live not only through the age to come, but also "unto the age of ages" and through the "ages of ages"
In the age to come the children of the resurrection will receive rewards appropriate to the exercise of their stewardships in this life. 100 times being symbolic- like 30, 60, 100- references to bearing fruit through the gospel- the word that was buried, or carried away, or choked out by cares of this life.
The children of the resurrection will never die again, they will live forever through the ages- until "the age of the ages", which is, imo, after God has become all in all and all death has been anulled. Once death is swallowed up, there will be no more terminus of any kind, just everlasting life- all in God and God all in all. Certainly infinite for all, as God is imparting fulness into all of His creation, beginning with the first-fruits.........
We know not yet what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is-
.......and He is aionian, everlasting, eternal and infinite
This is also reflected in Romans 8:18-23
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time(this present world/age) are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us(in the world/age to come).
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.(which will be the initializing event of the age to come) 20 For the creation was subjected to futility(in this age and the one before it), not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God(in the ages to come through the agency of Messiah and the first-fruits/ecclesia/us). 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth(new creation emerging) together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves(birthpangs), waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body(new creation emerged).
Once our body is redeemed from death, for us- there will be no more death, we will live forever. That is not unconditional, it is conditional upon being united to Christ. Eventually everyone will be bgought into that condition(Eph 1:9-11; Phil 2:9-11; 1 Cor 15:23-28; Col 1:15-20)
While the things Jesus and Paul speak about the next age indicate clearly that it is finite- there is nothing in that language that I can see that indicates that the resurrection life of the first-fruits(ecclesia) is anything less than everlasting-IN ADDITION TO BEING AIONIAN. They(first-fruits) will live through the ages to come, doing works created from the foundation of the world that they should walk in them,(Eph 2:7,8) until the whole creation is set free from futility and death is no more for anyone anywhere :o)
Greg, you will not be tortured :o)....
But here at Tentmaker, a lowly forum, the scriptures of the canon commonly accepted are the basis of discussion. All issues of translation are open to be discussed. Issues regarding the validity of the scriptures themselves and the writers of the commonly held canon of the "Bible" are not open to discussion. That exceeds the parameters of our purpose here and there are other forums for that discussion.
We accept the writings of Paul as inspired scripture and it is a foundation, along with the writings of Peter, whose disagreement with Paul led to his being corrected by Paul and admitting it, along with himself categorizing Paul's writings as scripture, and John, James, Jude, and the writer of Hebrews.
:cloud9: Hi Greg. I've been offline for awhile so missed a lot of reading and am just now attempting to catch up. I would like to point out some things for your consideration concerning Paul. I visit a few sites on the net now besides this one and I have noticed, I must say to my amazement, the amount of Paul bashing going on these days.
One of the more obvious things is the whole Paul name change thing. He didn't have a name change, nor change his name. His name in the Greek language was simply Paul. In Hebrew, it was Shaul. This was common in a culture that had a sort of State language forced on them. Sort of like my English translation given name is Rebecca, but in Hebrew my name is Rivka. If the Jewish people suddenly took us over and vanquished us, declaring only Hebrew could be spoken, then my name would be Rivka, yet nothing changed except the language version of it.
I have personally always loved Paul and identified more with him than any other writer, probably more so today than even in the beginning of my walk. The fact that there were 12 original apostles, doesn't mean more were not to follow. In fact, just the opposite is true, if you understand that He is reproducing His natures in us, and the apostle is one of His natures as expressed through the works of the Holy Ghost. Our very fingers on our hands witness the 5 fold word natures, the thumb being representative of the apostle because without him/it the others can't work properly.
Paul was a man born out of season because the revelations he got were not so much for the day he lived in, as for us to whom the end of the age has come. I always sort of felt sorry for him for this reason, because the staggering revelations that he got, he knew he was not going to be alive to participate in them, simply because he was born out of season. I think of how it would have affected me to behold such a miraculous end and know that there was absolutely nil of a chance to be there for it. I think that would be true grief, personally. I think to be born in the day we are in, THE DAY, and to miss it, would be the definition of pure unrelenting inconsolable grief. Blessings...
Quote from: GodIsLove on January 29, 2016, 02:40:02 AM
I'm no sure what to make of this thread...
Greg, so you don't believe any of Paul's writings are scripture and you insinuate he is a liar, etc.
I wont excommunicate you :) buuuut that to me is a slippery slope.
Everyone on here has commonalities and areas where we disagree and so far all disagreements have been pretty civil which I love. This place is exceptional in that way.
For me, Paul's conversion is one of the reasons I believe in Christianity. He persecuted and killed Christians and then had a change of heart. What could have brought about such a change if not God himself? His conversion is much like many of our own experiences where God reaches out to us in our wretchedness and when He does this, who can refuse His love, and His plan for us?
Some of the most beautiful writings in the bible are in Paul's letters. Descriptions of love and of God's plan.
The criticisms you cite about him are similar to criticisms that atheists use to try to disprove the bible (small inconsistencies such as when the synoptic gospels are telling the same story but there are different details, etc.). Paul wasn't perfect but no apostle was. Peter denied Jesus and had a bit of a temper. They often didn't understand Jesus even when he was there speaking to them directly. Jesus rebuked them at times.
Paul's writings weren't considered scripture because only OT was scripture at that time if I am not mistaken. The gospels hadn't even been written yet.
The fact that he didn't write Jesus's biography is sort of a non-issue to me. He wasn't an apostle until after the crucifixion, and he was writing letters to churches regarding specific things. I'm assuming the churches already knew Jesus's basic life story, he didn't need to rehash it for them.
Some of my initial thoughts.
Also, it seems like you are an annihilationist. I do agree that some passages seem to point to this. You've heard all the scripture that UR believers cite so I won't go into that again.
To me, I believe in UR because I feel that God showed me that was his plan (through scripture) when I prayed to Him for answers. I agree with what you said tho, about how some people claim the Holy Spirit told them this or that and how do we really know, Etc. So obviously you have to compare it to scripture, properly translated and in the right context, so that is awesome that you are passionate about doing that.
Another reason I believe in UR other than scripture is because it shows God has a plan. Destroying part of His creation to me implies it was faulty, and God is perfect. I don't want to be presumptuous or arrogant and think I have all the answers, I know we are mere humans and the sliver that we understand "seeing thru the glass darkly" is just that, murky and without full understanding. I try to be humble and trust God.
I have someone who was very close to me my whole life, my brother, who I love dearly. He won't talk to me anymore and I keep reaching out to him in love. I hold out hope for the day that all are reconciled because without reconciliation, I would imagine many people would feel loss and yearning just as I do. Wouldn't God, who loves us and created us, feel the most loss of all, to have to destroy his creation that he loves so?
Yes, man is fallen and evil and we are all pretty hopeless.
It is impossible for flesh to please God...
BUT
With God all things are possible.
Thank you for sharing these thoughts. Yeah man, I prefer a 'UR believer who likes Paul' over an 'everlasting torment advocate who challenges Paul' any day of the week! In fact, the contest is not even close, not even a contest really.
If someone wants to believe in everlasting life for themselves, fine. Know this though, that preaching has serious consequences. It scared me greatly when I was a very young child (about 6) in Catholic school. I remember sitting in church listening to sermons, and I would close my eyes and try to imagine heaven, and it was frightening to be told I will live in this one place (a white heaven) that just keeps going and going and going and never ends no matter what. You have to realize, I wasn't scared about it in some casual sense. I believed every single word of what the priest was saying. It frightened me, it was bone chilling. I have never wanted an infinite time life; that concept has never set right in my heart as a child or as a Christian adult. Some might say that my heart at age 6 was flawed because it was not in harmony with the bible translation "forever and ever". I don't think so. I didn't even have the mental capacity then to agree to anything regarding infinity of any dimension; to sign up for that experience. I don't think any human has the mental capacity to speak confidently about infinities, let alone agree to go for infinity rides with no exit door.
With that background about me, people will understand better why the literal text of the bible is so comforting to me. It shows the true character of the Father as One who continually
transforms His creation through worlds and ages. Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended." Only the Father lives perpetually. The Father has the power to destroy my soul if He wants. That comforts me.
So that's my position on 'everlasting life'. Or for more detail, read my article: http://www.logicalhierarchy.com/blog/preacher-man-hell-mistranslation/
Now with regard to the false doctrine of 'everlasting hell', if someone wants to preach everlasting torment (especially preach it to children) I have a fundamental moral problem with that. I consider it a form of mental and emotional abuse. I don't think it should be prosecuted in the criminal or family courts, but rather I think Christians simply need to shine the literal bible text upon that darkness, and the darkness will flee. And that is why I like free speech forums where people can find answers and perspectives.
The idea of everlasting torment is so deeply offensive to me, I consider it evil of the highest magnitude when it is stamped upon children who believe without discernment. Those who preach 'everlasting torment' categorically do not know the Father as justice. He
is Justice.
Deuteronomy 32:4, "His work is perfect, for all his ways are justice: a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is He."
Psalm 7:11, "God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times."
:cloud9: You know, for me personally, I've never cared about having everlasting life. I'm not following Him for that, but I do think it's a lot of people's sole motivation, that and escaping what they believe will be eternal torment so they're only trying for a fire insurance policy. But He tests the hearts and not one of us will make it past Him with any "stuff", lol....Blessings...
these things saidd here are the very reason God set up cherubs to guard the tree of life...that Adam/man not remain eternally/live forever in
such a condition[of unbelief] a great great mercy unto man..imo..........remaining forever and ever/infinitely in corruption
would be a horror of horrors.
:cloud9: Yes, wouldn't it though? S-h-u-d-d-e-r. I keep thanking Him for His mercy for me because by all accounts I should be 6 feet under and just as deserving of it of any man (-kind), but one death is for sure worse than another, at least for a season, but He could have let it be a permanent condition. Blesssings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on January 29, 2016, 06:25:54 PM
:cloud9: You know, for me personally, I've never cared about having everlasting life. I'm not following Him for that, but I do think it's a lot of people's sole motivation, that and escaping what they believe will be eternal torment so they're only trying for a fire insurance policy. But He tests the hearts and not one of us will make it past Him with any "stuff", lol....Blessings...
Same thoughts here :HeartThrob:
Greg, thanks for your response :)
I was also scared of eternity as a child. Terrified actually. Like Cardinal said, I'm not in it for eternal life and I agree with a lot of your original thoughts, that eternal life isn't spelled out in the bible as explicitly as you describe.
I tend to think of life "age-during" is applicable to the here and now.
I do believe that all will be reconciled. I don't think too much about eternity because it still does freak me out if I think about it too deeply. I think because it is incomprehensible to is as mortals and is not really for us to think about now anyway.
But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory."
Quote from: eaglesway on January 29, 2016, 11:40:28 PM
But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory."
:thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 29, 2016, 11:40:28 PM
But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory."
Hah, well, yes :)
I guess I meant MOST of the passages people use to cite immortality are aionian (never sure I spelled that right), so to me the bible focuses on or life now, and in the next age, but beyond that a little is talked about but not a ton, and I think, to me, it's because we aren't yet to be worrying too much about the future.
Do Not Worry
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
I try to take this to heart about this life, and whatever comes after it. I trust in God and let it be (on a good day :)
Greg, it is not a problem if you want to discuss the scriptures from an annihilationist view. However if you want to "teach" annihilation, that is not permissible. Not thru links either ;o)
I understand you are new to this site. This site is for the promotion of the salvation of all. It is not a general debate site. We allow discussion from other points of view, but we do not carry on debates with teachers of eternal torment or annihilation.
I agree with what you are teaching about the literal understanding of olam/aion as world age, but I disagree with some of the conclusions you have drawn from that limited perspective which excludes some other words and verses that relate to the foundation doctrines(heb 6;1-6) or the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
I would be glad to discuss those things with you, as I am sure others here would also, but we are not unfamiliar with the things you are teaching. These are not new things. I have good friends who are still believe in annihilation and some who still believe in eternal torment. So understand this is not about excluding some new teaching- it is about the purpose of this site, which is to proclaim "the restoration of all things which was spoken through all the prophets from olam".(Acts 3;21)
Posting links to annihilationist teaching videos is not what we do here, and I hate to offend you. I do believe you are sincere and well studied- but not well studied enough.
I would encourage you to do the same kind of study on the word "destroyed" in two Peter 3, where translators have rendered 3 different words that DO NOT MEAN DESTROYED, and are not translated as destroyed anywhere else in the Bible.
Jesus said, literally, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me."
He also said, literally, "Behold(see, understand, comprehend) I am making all things new" and write, "these words are faithful and true."
If only men would begin by believing literally the words of Messiah concerning the eventual destiny of all, then they could begin to understand His purpose and the scope of His redemption.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Eph 1:8-11
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:19,20
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:22-28
Honestly, I dont understand how a man of your learning and intelligence can read through the verses written in this one small post without getting at least a glimpse of the restoration of all things.
But anyway, that is what the Tent is for- people who want to learn about and find fellowship in the Good News(euaggelion) of God's kind intention(eudokia) which He purposed in Himself, the gathering together into one(anakephalaomai) of all things in Christ, whether things in heaven or things on earth.
I might add, that it is not much kinder, imo, to tell children they can burn for an age, or to comfort them by telling them "maybe they will burn up quick like straw if they werent too bad"!
You have misunderstood fire and its purpose.
Light is fire to darkness. The chaff(carnal man) is separated from the wheat(spiritual man) so that the wheat can be gathered. Only the chaff is consumed with unquenchable fire.
Every hidden thing will be brought to light, because His eyes are as flames of fire and His face shines like the sun. Every knee will bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
"And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." Rev 5:13
I urge you to press in a little deeper because you have fallen short of the mark thus far.
I agree God is Love, that most of the verses used to prove immortality are aionian and olam. However, this does not mean that the life in the age to come is not also everlasting for those who are grafted into the Vine of Christ.
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity(pro chronon aionian-before time aionian), 10but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.
God has abolished death. As we enter Christ death is abolished forever, not just for an age. and lest we take Paul's word for it.....
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
:Peace2:
EW,
Your posts are so thorough, rational, and most importantly, biblical. So far since I have been here at TM, you also always seem to bring things back into focus, especially for us newbies (myself I have believed in UR for only nearly 4 mos, and I have been seriously reading the bible for 5 years, so I am obviously still learning a lot). Thanks! :dsunny:
Four months! How wonderful! So much awaiting discovery! I am still seeing new glimpses of glory reflecting off of this diamond of the "restoration of all things". I marvel and I wonder and I rejoice :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on January 30, 2016, 12:33:43 AM
...
Jesus said, literally, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me."
He also said, literally, "Behold(see, understand, comprehend) I am making all things new" and write, "these words are faithful and true."
If only men would begin by believing literally the words of Messiah concerning the eventual destiny of all, then they could begin to understand His purpose and the scope of His redemption.
...
Honestly, I dont understand how a man of your learning and intelligence can read through the verses written in this one small post without getting at least a glimpse of the restoration of all things.
But anyway, that is what the Tent is for- people who want to learn about and find fellowship in the Good News(euaggelion) of God's kind intention(eudokia) which He purposed in Himself, the gathering together into one(anakephalaomai) of all things in Christ, whether things in heaven or things on earth.
I might add, that it is not much kinder, imo, to tell children they can burn for an age, or to comfort them by telling them "maybe they will burn up quick like straw if they werent too bad"!
You have misunderstood fire and its purpose.
Light is fire to darkness. The chaff(carnal man) is separated from the wheat(spiritual man) so that the wheat can be gathered. Only the chaff is consumed with unquenchable fire.
Every hidden thing will be brought to light, because His eyes are as flames of fire and His face shines like the sun. Every knee will bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
"And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." Rev 5:13
I urge you to press in a little deeper because you have fallen short of the mark thus far.
Hmmm...
First, you said "it is not much kinder, imo, to tell children they can burn for an age"... I'm actually saying something different moderator. I think survival-of-the-fittest on earth is often crueler than simply being dropped into a lake of fire and burning up instantly. I'd be surprised to meet someone who would prefer to be eaten alive by a lion rather than being (as described by the Psalms) devoured like a dry piece of grass in a fire. As for someone being tormented "to a world/age", it doesn't mean everyone who is transported to a new world (i.e., a dry part in Sheol) suffers for the precise duration of that new world. Rather, I say that Yahweh will do justice, and most bible quotes describe that justice as being incredibly swift, like dry grass in a fire. And in 2 Peter, the apostle is discussing hell and he distinguishes that some are tormented worse than others. That makes sense in a world of justice. So a person can be sent "to a world" and be tormented there for a limited time -- they need not be tormented on that new world for the same duration as the world's existence. Indeed, all of us were born here on this wild planet earth (a new world for us), and some of us have suffered a lot, but none of us have lived for the entire duration of earth. Further, I think the proper way to describe torment outside this world to a child is to simply read the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31, and emphasize that "torment in Sheol" is interpretive.
Second, in support of your perspective regarding UR, you cite John 12:32, which in context is actually John 12:25-35, "
'Whoever loves his life shall destroy it and whoever hates his life in this world shall guard it to life, to a world/age. If a man serves me, he shall come after me, and where I am there shall also my servant be. Whoever ministers to me, The Father shall honor. Behold, now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say: My Father, deliver me from this hour? But for this I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.' And a voice was heard from Heaven: 'I have glorified and I am glorifying it again.' And the crowd that was standing there heard, and they were saying, 'It was thunder', and others were saying 'An Angel spoke with him.' Yeshua answered and said to them, 'This voice was not for my benefit, but for
your benefit.' Now is the judgment of
this world/age; now The Ruler of
this world/age is hurled outside. And when I am lifted up from
the earth, I will draw
klnSh to myself.
He said this that he might show by what death he would die. The crowds were saying to him, 'We have heard from the law that The Messiah abides to a world/age. How do you say that the Son of Man is going to be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?' Yeshua said to them, 'The Light is with you a little time longer.'"
That phrase in John 12:32
klnSh ("all men" or "all of them" or "any of them") cannot be separated from its context, because it routinely means "all of them" or "any of them" in context rather than "all men throughout time and space". For example, see how this exact phrase
klnSh is used in these gospel examples:
- Mark 6:39, "And he commanded them to seat klnSh ("all men throughout time and space"?) on the grass."
- Mark 10:44, "And he among you who wants to be the first will be a servant to klnSh ("all men throughout time and space"?)."
- Mark 13:13, ""And you will be hated by klnSh ("all men throughout time and space"?) because of my name, but whoever will endure until the end will be saved."
- Matthew 10:22, "And you will be hated by klnSh ("all men throughout time and space"?) because of my name, but whoever will endure until the end, he will be saved."
- Matthew 26:33, "Kapa answered and said to him, 'Even if klnSh ("all men throughout time and space"?) will be offended at you, I will never be offended at you.'"
Do you read Hebrew?
If you study the related phrase
klmdm ("all whatever" or "anything"), you'll know this is a common Hebraicism - a
klprefix phrase cannot be separated from its context. It just can't, man. It is literally meaningless without context, just like if I just walked up to you and said just this one word, "anything". You'd have literally no idea what I was saying. We would probably both just laugh.
We have these same expressions in English too. For example, "I'll buy klmdm" is like saying "I'll buy everything" but it really means 'I'll buy whatever' is the subject of our discussion. So if you're showing me a bushel of apples, I would say "
Tsba ana zbna klmdm" ("I wish to buy everything"), meaning I'll buy the whole bushel, not the whole universe.
As the literal gospel verses above show, it is the exact same with
klnSh in the language of Israel in the first century. If someone says 'I will draw
klnSh' to me, it doesn't make any sense without first knowing the context of
which people he's talking about. No one who speaks the language of 1st century Israel would make the assumption that the speaker means all people throughout time and space, unless the speaker specifically sets that context first.
And indeed in John 12:32, the Messiah was speaking upon the context of John 12:25 -- 'all men who are not destroyed' -- as we read the very opening context in John 12:25, "
'Whoever loves his life shall destroy it and whoever hates his life in this world shall guard it to life, to a world/age."
Whoever loves his life shall lose it- apollyei, who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life aionian.
Jesus is talking about loving life in this world kosmos. As John put it, For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world. One cannot receive "aionion zoe" while still in love with this world age.
Those who "lose" themselves to this world will be" ruined" by it. If that ruination does not produce repentence and awakening, they will be corrected in the next world. "aionian kolassis" is the correction of the next life. It involves the ruination and perdition of the carnal nature- darkness, consumed by the fire/light of His presence. You believe they will be destroyed utterly, which I believe is incorrect because of many many verses.
"These will go away into eternal punishment(aionian kolassis), but the righteous into eternal life".(Mt 25:46) Clearly the kolassis is aionian/olam -not eternal. Altho in the annihilation paradigm they are not tormented forever, they are destroyed forever, so the kolassis would not be aionian- a time appropriate to a purpose.
Jesus said "every hidden thing will be brought to light"
Paul said "everything that is brought to the light becomes light".
To use your own style of hermeneutics, apollyei makes sense as "lost" and "ruined" in every verse it is used. It does not make sense as "destroyed" in every verse that is used- and this is easily proven.
For instance, Jesus says He came to seek and save that which was lost(apolumi).
How could He come to seek and save that which was "destroyed".
If destruction(apolumi, apollyei) is utter destruction in one case- ought it not be so in every case? yet who can save that which has been utterly destroyed.
But that which has been "ruined" may be restored. That which has been "lost" may be recovered.
Those who love the world are ruined by it in this life, and incur, in approproiate measure to their measure, correction in the next. "aionian pyr" is "aionian kolassis" and it leads to this....
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying(katargese- nullify, render powerless) every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.......... When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor 15 clearly states that every adversary will be subjected, and that God will become "all in all(everything in everyone)".
The purpose of subjection is RECONCILIATION AND RESTORATION- not utter destruction.
A further example of the failure to properly translate "destroy" is in 2 Peter 3, one of your proof scriptures. There are four different words translated "destroy" in various translations in 2 Peter 3.
You can see the incorrect nature of those translations below.....
Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation(arche746s ktiseos2937)." 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed(4921 synestōsa-composed) out of water and by water, 6 through which the world(kosmos) at that time was destroyed(622apoleto-perished), being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction(apoleias684) of ungodly men.
The world itself was not utterly destroyed. The world system that was in place was ruined by the flood, but the earth endured, and the remnant carried the seed of life into a new world- on the same earth. The fire that this present age is reserved for will produce a new heavens and a new earth "wherein dwells righteousness". This is because, "he must reign until every adversary is subjected". The rebellion of men will be destroyed in the fire of God's light and they will be "ruined", "subjected", "gathered" and "restored". The last enemy to be "destroyed" is death. God is the God of the living. When death is destroyed there will be no more death- and no more dead.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing(boulomenos- resolute will...not willing) for any to perish(622 apoleto) but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements(stoicheon-elementary principles) will be destroyed(lythēsetai-loosed, released) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up(2147 heurethēsetai-exposed).
2 Peter 3:10 is the only place in the whole Bible in any version that lythesai is translated "destroy".
Everywhere else it is translated loosed, released, dissolved. Heurethesetai is "exposed". IN 175 OUT OF 176 other occurences, heurethesetai is translated "was found to be", or "will find". Nowhere is it, "burned up" and that meaning is nowhere in the word. Apollumi is "lost" or "ruined" or "perdition".
Of all the mistranslation we cite, such as olam/aion/forever; hell/sheol/the grave; there is no more grievous mistranslation than 2 Peter 3.
The fire of God will expose the secrets of mens hearts. Thats why His eyes are as flames of fire, as it is written, "all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do(Heb 4;13)- "their conscience either accusing or excusing them on the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ- (Romans 2) That is what gehenna is about.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed(lyomenōn-dissolved) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed(lythēsontai-dissolved, loosed) by burning(being on fire will be dissolved(ouranoi pyroumenoi lythēsontai), and the elements(stoicheon) will melt(teketai) with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
The "elements" here spoken of are the "principalities and powers of this present world age". In Hebrews 5 Paul says that by now we ought to have moved beyond the "elementary principles" of the oracles of God. In Gal 4 he warns believers about returning to the weak and beggarly elements(stoichea). in Colssians 2 Paul warns again, "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles(stoicheon) of the world(kosmos), why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
Peter and Paul used the same words to describe what was being "dissolved" "anulled" and "exposed".
the stoicheon of this kosmos.
Peter sees this as creating a "new heavens and a new earth". Jesus says through John "Behold(see, understand) I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW"
When Christ has done away with all rule power and authority because all things, whether in heaven or on earth, have been reconciled to God by the blood of His cross, the fire, which was always only one fire- the fire that touched Isaiah's lips, the Branch, a brand plucked from the fire, the fire that separates wheat from chaff, the fire in which gold, purified 7 times, is hammered into a Lampstand- all the same fire. it is the fire of the DAY.
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Each man's work will become evident; for the Day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire.
It is to be REVEALED, EXPOSED, PURGED, SEPARATED with fire. God is not destroying people. And neither are we because, "I came not to judge the world but that the world might be saved by me".
The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7 And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the Lord has spoken.
We are destroying SPECUALTIONS that exalt themselves against the TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD, who will not have anyone perish(apollomi), not have anyone "destroyed"- but will ruin them in order to save them, as He did with Israel.
In that day the Lord will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.
2 In that day,
"A vineyard of wine, sing of it!
God has burned up the wood hay and stubble of Israel, He has pierced the heart of pride, by the lowly Gentile who is now a child of inheritance- but not to utterly destroy them. he ruined them in order to restore them, "Therefore all Israel will be saved".
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Peter preached the restoration of all. Jesus proclaimed it. Paul taught it. John did as well.
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
If God utterly destroys the wicked, most of the scripture I listed in the last two posts make no sense at all.
As far as context for all. There is plenty of context in the body of verses I have given, and they are only a few..... but Colossians 1:15-20 gives the context of what all means as clearly as any individual portion.
He created all. He is before all. He is over all. All things hold together in Him. For so it pleased the Father to make all fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things back to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, through the blood of His cross.
That is what Jesus means when He says, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me."
"Behold, I am making all things new"
"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be the glory unto the ages, amen"
Quote from: eaglesway on January 30, 2016, 10:44:52 AM
...
To use your own style of hermeneutics, apollyei makes sense as "lost" and "ruined" in every verse it is used. It does not make sense as "destroyed" in every verse that is used
...
You're correct that 'destruction' cannot be read in isolation, because
it too is dependent on context. But here are bible examples where "destruction" is described in contexts that do not suggest either restoration or refinement of a remnant:
Proverbs 24:20, "The evil have
no future. The lamp of the wicked will go out." How could the wicked have "no future" if in fact they shall be divided in parts, and the good part restored?
Proverbs 12:7, "The wicked are overthrown,
and are no more, but the house of the righteous shall stand."
In the psalms, King David describes the wicked "
like chaff that the wind drives away... the wicked will perish" (Psalm 1:4 and 1:6). And see how he describes the wicked as dead men that are
not even remembered in Psalms 9:6 and 34:16. David explains that the wicked "
fade like the grass, and wither like an herb" (Psalm 37:2). They "
shall be cut off...and...will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there. (Psalm 37:9–10). "The wicked perish...
like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20). "The transgressors shall be
altogether destroyed" (Psalm 37:38). The wicked are analogized to finite things like grass, and then the text explains that they are destroyed as finite things are destroyed.
Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh? He will make an utter end; distress
shall not rise up a second time...they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."
Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is able to
destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."
Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every worker of wickedness
shall be chaff. And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which
will not leave root or branches to them."
In any case, it is plain that
klnSh ("all men") must be read
in context, and that in the literal gospel text is has
multiple meanings, including "anyone" or "any of them". Mark 6:39 is probably the funniest example to prove this point that is obvious in the language of first century Israel, "And he commanded them to seat
klnSh on the grass." Does Yahshua refer to "all men throughout time and space" or simply "them" who were present that day on the grass?
If you speak the language of the Jewish people in the 1st century, you can see that Yahshua was telling the Pharisees in John 16 that it is
not just these Jews who shall be drawn up to Yahshua on the cross, but
klnSh "any man". And who are these
klnSh "any man" to which Yahshua refers? John 16:25 tells us explicitly that they are men who do not love their lives but guard them to a world/age. Is that "every man"? No, because John 16:25 tells us that some men do love their lives more than Yahshua, and their fate is destruction. Moreover, lots of passages in the bible instruct about this "any man" who is given the gift to ascend: it is a man whose soul has not been destroyed in Gehenna. It is a man who has the testimony of Yahshua and keeps the commandments. It is anyone to whom the Father wills to give to the Son.
"Then shall return the dust to the earth as it was, and the Spirit shall return unto God who gave." Ecclesiastes 12:7. Only that which lives in YHWH continues perpetually.
Allow me to emphasize a very key point... it is
very easy to describe immortality explicitly in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or any language. See for example, Psalm 102:27 regarding YHWH, "You are He, and
Your years shall not be ended." Nowhere in
Yahshua's words do we find such an explicit statement regarding man, or even angels. Rather, if you want to find explicitly detailed statements of immortality, then go to Greek and Hebrew literature -- the Pharisees and Greek mystics for example believed everything was immortal. You couldn't spin a dradle inside a library in the first century without hitting a book where the author claimed every soul was immortal, the gods were immortal (to the Greeks & Romans), etc. - they expounded in great detail.
But, key point, the bible was special because it never said that everything was immortal. That was quite radical about the bible as a religious text. In fact, the bible says repeatedly that all wickedness (not just some) will be destroyed by YHWH. So YHWH was more powerful than the Greek gods. When Matthew 10:28 refers to both "soul and body", that's an affirmation of YHWH's supreme power. That's important to remember as Christians, that the bible was different than Greek and Jewish literature. It is like how we remember that the Jewish temple was special because it did
not have idols inside. That fact was quite radical at the time because the temples of every other religion in the world
focused on idols.
By the way, I am not teaching. I am a student of the literal text in the language spoken by the apostles in Israel in the first century.
Personally, I have come to understand that time can be the time of the transient earth or the time of the unchanging God, depending on who perceives – whether seen by the spirit of the earth or by the Spirit gifted by the all-generous Supreme.
I believe that he is blessed who no longer pays deference to the prince of the sense-world, who is no longer content with the shadow of the real, who has abandoned the regeneration of falsity from falsity.
A spirit is attracted whether it is of the world or whether it is of the Spirit, as sure as copper conducts electricity.
Blessed is he who knows that the Supreme Spirit is as close as breath and as far as far – where the space and time of the world of the senses ceases to exist, where the words of the earth become the shed husk, having played their part, revealing the endless glory of the Divine within.
Sin and death has been conquered by the Christ in you – your Christ.
Peace, calm, quiet, be still, not looking here and there but being awareness.
"Be not afraid, for with thee I am. Look not around, for I am thy God"
Christ is always here in the Present, you in Him and He in you – the absence of the physical body having no bearing on His Presence. The reality is now, now is the time. He shall not go anywhere but the corrupt and fallen senses belonging to Satan may hide Him from the real You. Begone and see!
Christ is ageless, ever youthful. Christ is born to us this day, it is the only Day that has ever been, and it has always been, and it always shall be – it is the ~NOW~ of Christ's Spirit, and it is yours – see the Day draw nigh.
:cloud9: Awesome post. :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 30, 2016, 12:43:22 AM
...
God has abolished death. As we enter Christ death is abolished forever, not just for an age. and lest we take Paul's word for it.....
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
:Peace2:
Thank you for your comment.
I actually disagree with your non-literal translation "never" in John 11:26. Here is the actual
literal translation of John 11:24-27, "Yeshua said to her, 'Your brother shall arise.' Martha said to him, 'I know that he shall rise in the resurrection in the last day.' Yeshua said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; whoever trusts in me, even if he dies, he shall live. And any who live and believe in me
lEalm ("to a world/age") shall not die. Do you believe this?' And she said to him, 'Yes, my Lord, I do believe that you are The Messiah, The Son of God, who has come into the world.'"
Yahshua specifically set the context -- "to a world/age" -- that is where/when a person will not die. And further, Yahshua was responding to Martha's context, "in the resurrection in the last day". Neither of these two contexts refer explicitly to infinite time or infinite space. Accordingly, your translation "forever" is a non-literal assumption. If Yahshua wanted to refer explicitly to infinite time, he could have done so easily by saying 'time without end'. Or he could have even implied it by saying
mThum ('ever'), but he didn't say that either. He said
lEalm ("to a world/age"), which throughout the bible has a 100% consistent meaning in reference to a world or an age. In this manner, the literal text of the bible is flawless.
And when a person is transported "to a world/age" they do not become the entire thing. When you are born on earth for example, you do not become the entire earth. As students of language, we are not allowed to just insert the word "infinity" or "never" or "ever" where the text does not use it. We are not allowed to conjugate the root word "age/world" so that the branch is divorced from the root.
Notice John 8:51-52: "Amen! Amen! I word to you, Whoever guards my word sees not death
lEalm ("to a world/age"). So the Judeans word to him, Now we know you have a demon: Abraham is dead — and the prophets: and you — you word, Whoever guards my word, he tastes not death
lEalm ("to a world/age")."
Remember, the the Pharisees believed in "forever and ever", and Yahshua had previously told them in John 5:39 that they had the wrong thinking about this concept, "Examine the scriptures: for in them you presume to have life
dlEalm : and these are witnessing concerning me: and you will to not come to me to have life
dlEalm ."
The Pharisees had a habit of assuming infinities and even assuming that
Ealm meant "ever", which is why John 8:51-52 makes sense. They assumed Yahshua was lying because he said
Ealm. If you interpret it literally, then Yahshua is telling the truth. But if you interpret it non-literally (as the Pharisees did), then Abraham will not die ever. Indeed, even Simon Peter used the phrase like the Pharisees in John 13:8, and Yahshua immediately corrected him. Here is the literal John 13:7-8, "Yahshua answers him saying, 'The thing I am doing you know not now: but afterwards you will know. Simon Kapa says to him,
la Ealm you wash my feet." Yahshua is explicitly advising Peter that Peter doesn't understand what's happening. As Peter was using the term in a figurative sense (that is to mean "ever"), the messiah corrected him, and washed Peter's feet in that very moment. If you are interested in further study here please review the old testament Hebraicism of 'foot washing' as an example of physical renewal, but let's move on to the next example in this word study.
Notice how in John 10:27-29, Yahshua specifically qualifies that "no man" can destroy someone given to him, "My own sheep hear my voice and I know them: and they come after me and I give them life
dlEalm ("that to a world/age"): and they destruct not
lEalm ("to a world/age"), and
no human seizes them from my hand. For my Father gave them to me, he is greater than all: and
no human is able from the hand of my Father to seize them."
If saved men cannot be destroyed later, why would Yahshua limit his words
twice to "no human". Why didn't he say "nothing ever" or "nothing in the universe" or "not even my Father", or anything along those lines to suggest infinite grace? Shall we presume that YHWH himself lacks the power to destroy men who fall from grace? Or if someone shall never fall from grace, then where is the explicit promise of that in the gospel? I think the reason I can't find it in the gospel, is because the bible promises that YHWH transforms everything in its season, and only YHWH (and those who continue to live in Him, namely the Son) lives perpetually. Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
There is more to this saga than we are discussing in this thread. At the end of the fourth gospel, the beloved disciple makes a special point to challenge the rumor that had gone out among the disciples that the beloved disciple would not die. As we read in John 21:23, "But Yahshua did not say that he [the beloved disciple] would not die, but rather, 'if I desire that this one remain until I return, what is that to you."
Matthew 11:14 regarding John the Baptist, "And if you desire to accept it, this is Elijah who was to come."
Quote from: Cardinal on January 30, 2016, 06:32:01 PM
:cloud9: Awesome post. :thumbsup:
Yes it is , and John said almost exactly the same , But in different words and a different way , but it all points to the Lord Jesus Christ, The Word made flesh .
The earthly kind and the spiritual kind . And do not doubt His presence is not with us all , this day . :HeartThrob:
QuoteGod has abolished death. As we enter Christ death is abolished forever, not just for an age. and lest we take Paul's word for it.....
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
To God be the glory :grouppray:
Greg
I have no problem with "shall not die" as opposed to "shall never die" but the problem is you have missed my point entirely(which may be on me).
I was not saying God cannot destroy a man later.... altho I dont believe he does. I was saying Jesus cannot save a man who has been utterly destroyed.
You cannot make apolumi mean utter destruction in relation to aionian judgment and then make it mean something else in this world age. Jesus saves the "lost" and the "ruined"(apolumi), He does not save the "DESTROYED".
Therefore the word "destroyed" is as much a red herring as the word "forever" when it comes to literal translation- as inconvenient as that may be for an annihilationist, it is nevertheless the fact.
Apolumi does not mean utter destruction at all, so it is not a matter of what God can or cant do, it is a matter of what the scriptures say He will do, which is to gather together all things into one in Christ, and to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of Christ's cross.
Whether or not John 12:35 says "never" or "not" is a straw argument. Also, pretty much everyone on this forum understands aion/aionios/olam/world ages, etc. The issue is this, imho :o)- Just because God's plan is an administration suitable to the times, executed through the ages, does not mean that the life of the redeemed is limited to the age. Aionian life lasts through the ages because it is the life of God, and it is immortal- according to the scriptures.
And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.(Heb 7;16)
If any man is in Christ Jesus old things have passed away, Behold, all things become new. The inheritance of believers, as members of His body, as branches in the Vine, is that same indestructible life.
I also find it interesting that you do not accept that anyone has life forever, but yet you do believe that God will give people death forever.
When you speak of literal interpretations and translations, all I hear is "literally what I say it is", because you clearly do not accept the literal translation regarding the word destroyed, and you have explained away "all" as a Hebrew idiom that cannot be accepted as it is written, using context as your justification- but I think the context is clear, as well as consistent with the literal translation- and simply means all.
All will be subjected. All will be reconciled. All will be gathered into one in Christ. And God will be all in all. For from Him and thru Him and to Him are all things.
:dsunny: He IS Risen :HeartThrob:
Quote from: greg on January 30, 2016, 06:32:28 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 30, 2016, 12:43:22 AM
...
God has abolished death. As we enter Christ death is abolished forever, not just for an age. and lest we take Paul's word for it.....
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
:Peace2:
Thank you for your comment.
I actually disagree with your non-literal translation "never" in John 11:26. Here is the actual literal translation of John 11:24-27, "Yeshua said to her, 'Your brother shall arise.' Martha said to him, 'I know that he shall rise in the resurrection in the last day.' Yeshua said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; whoever trusts in me, even if he dies, he shall live. And any who live and believe in me lEalm ("to a world/age") shall not die. Do you believe this?' And she said to him, 'Yes, my Lord, I do believe that you are The Messiah, The Son of God, who has come into the world.'"
Yahshua specifically set the context -- "to a world/age" -- that is where/when a person will not die. And further, Yahshua was responding to Martha's context, "in the resurrection in the last day". Neither of these two contexts refer explicitly to infinite time or infinite space. Accordingly, your translation "forever" is a non-literal assumption. If Yahshua wanted to refer explicitly to infinite time, he could have done so easily by saying 'time without end'. Or he could have even implied it by saying mThum ('ever'), but he didn't say that either. He said lEalm ("to a world/age"), which throughout the bible has a 100% consistent meaning in reference to a world or an age. In this manner, the literal text of the bible is flawless.
And when a person is transported "to a world/age" they do not become the entire thing. When you are born on earth for example, you do not become the entire earth. As students of language, we are not allowed to just insert the word "infinity" or "never" or "ever" where the text does not use it. We are not allowed to conjugate the root word "age/world" so that the branch is divorced from the root.
Notice John 8:51-52: "Amen! Amen! I word to you, Whoever guards my word sees not death lEalm ("to a world/age"). So the Judeans word to him, Now we know you have a demon: Abraham is dead — and the prophets: and you — you word, Whoever guards my word, he tastes not death lEalm ("to a world/age")."
Remember, the the Pharisees believed in "forever and ever", and Yahshua had previously told them in John 5:39 that they had the wrong thinking about this concept, "Examine the scriptures: for in them you presume to have life dlEalm : and these are witnessing concerning me: and you will to not come to me to have life dlEalm ."
The Pharisees had a habit of assuming infinities and even assuming that Ealm meant "ever", which is why John 8:51-52 makes sense. They assumed Yahshua was lying because he said Ealm. If you interpret it literally, then Yahshua is telling the truth. But if you interpret it non-literally (as the Pharisees did), then Abraham will not die ever. Indeed, even Simon Peter used the phrase like the Pharisees in John 13:8, and Yahshua immediately corrected him. Here is the literal John 13:7-8, "Yahshua answers him saying, 'The thing I am doing you know not now: but afterwards you will know. Simon Kapa says to him, la Ealm you wash my feet." Yahshua is explicitly advising Peter that Peter doesn't understand what's happening. As Peter was using the term in a figurative sense (that is to mean "ever"), the messiah corrected him, and washed Peter's feet in that very moment. If you are interested in further study here please review the old testament Hebraicism of 'foot washing' as an example of physical renewal, but let's move on to the next example in this word study.
Notice how in John 10:27-29, Yahshua specifically qualifies that "no man" can destroy someone given to him, "My own sheep hear my voice and I know them: and they come after me and I give them life dlEalm ("that to a world/age"): and they destruct not lEalm ("to a world/age"), and no human seizes them from my hand. For my Father gave them to me, he is greater than all: and no human is able from the hand of my Father to seize them."
If saved men cannot be destroyed later, why would Yahshua limit his words twice to "no human". Why didn't he say "nothing ever" or "nothing in the universe" or "not even my Father", or anything along those lines to suggest infinite grace? Shall we presume that YHWH himself lacks the power to destroy men who fall from grace? Or if someone shall never fall from grace, then where is the explicit promise of that in the gospel? I think the reason I can't find it in the gospel, is because the bible promises that YHWH transforms everything in its season, and only YHWH (and those who continue to live in Him, namely the Son) lives perpetually. Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
There is more to this saga than we are discussing in this thread. At the end of the fourth gospel, the beloved disciple makes a special point to challenge the rumor that had gone out among the disciples that the beloved disciple would not die. As we read in John 21:23, "But Yahshua did not say that he [the beloved disciple] would not die, but rather, 'if I desire that this one remain until I return, what is that to you."
Matthew 11:14 regarding John the Baptist, "And if you desire to accept it, this is Elijah who was to come."
so you are saying that some will be utterly destroyed out of existence ?...annihilated ?...sounds 'ok' but it contradicts Scripture..quite a few Bible verses state that 'all' shall be saved... my take on it is that 'wickedness' in humans shall indeed be destroyed leaving only the 'good' which lasts forever...that's kind of a simplistic answer, there's more to it than that but that'll do for now I guess.Of course all of this is like a blind man trying to describe an elephant, we know so little..we 'see thru a glass darkly'..God obviously has not revealed absolutely everything to us in the Bible about the next 'world'..when we get there we'll understand a lot more obviously...in the meantime I'm just trying to 'glean ' truth from what Scripture has revealed to us.
Quote from: darryl on January 30, 2016, 09:50:48 PM
so you are saying that some will be utterly destroyed out of existence ?...annihilated ?...sounds 'ok' but it contradicts Scripture..quite a few Bible verses state that 'all' shall be saved...
...
Actually, the word
kl is just commonly translated "all" because an English speaker interpreted it that way. In the reality of 1st Century Israel,
kl just as often means "any". You can verify this fact with a dictionary and a concordance, and as you read the bible, you will see these statements carry weight in the literal text...
"Anyone" can be saved. "Any man" can be lifted up.
Indeed, as I wrote earlier, Mark 6:39 is probably the funniest example to prove this point that is obvious in the language of first century Israel, "And he commanded them to seat
klnSh on the grass." Does Yahshua refer to "all men throughout time and space" or simply "them" who were present that day on the grass?
Every time
kl is utilized, its context defines the word. By itself, it never means "all". Likewise, by itself, it never means "any". It only takes meaning
in context. Without context, it resides in a state of probability. And that is no small thing... students interested in studying probability and the way that the Messiah is Light, please research the word
mShykKha. There is a joy and refinement that comes from studying these words.
YHWH will be any in any? And "God will have any men to be saved"? I can't research it right now, hubby's on my computer and I'm on this iPhone.. But I might later.. But you see.. Yahweh can only be perfect, and perfect loses nothing.. And "His Word will not return to Him void but will accomplish all (any?) of His will"? I daresay it is probable all in included in the original meaning. Since he can only be Perfect, the 'end' result can only be the best one possible.
"He will gather any things in heaven and earth into Jesus"..? He is more than able.. "God is the savior of any" - even were that the limited meaning.. There's still not anywhere in the scriptures that says after death all hope is lost.. Only that they will die in their sins, which simply means they will rise in their sins, seeing as all will be raised.. And really why raise any that we're going to perish? We know Him and that is not conceivable with He who is love and light "with no darkness at all".. No shadow.. No shifting shadow.
I'm thinking tho if this application in some way glorifies Him, then perhaps it may be possible the slant you propose is correct.. If it less than glorifies His perfect nature, it's simply not possible..
Later! Hope your day is being filled by His awesome Presence.. And thus that wonderful peace which springs up into such enduring joy.. :smile:
Hope I didn't make too many mistakes on this tiny screen :o haha :))
P.S - and if He will save "any" - all those, including which never heard the gospel before death - any who experience rising in their sins, I.e. Resurrection and witness what surely will have to be a - long - 'day' of judgment/review/discernment/"krises" in the Greek if I'm remembering right, (decision?)
If he will save any who will believe, well, after experiencing all that (aka being resurrected from their grave) who's nOt going to believe?? :o
:smile:
...hope I didn't misunderstand, "any" or "all" in context, the save all still mor'n likely holds true.. :Peace2:
Well I know it holds true - chuckle, U.R. that is :))
...but if you get my drift.. about the verses
Quote from: eaglesway on January 30, 2016, 08:13:40 PM
...
Whether or not John 12:35 says "never" or "not" is a straw argument. Also, pretty much everyone on this forum understands aion/aionios/olam/world ages, etc. The issue is this, imho :o)- Just because God's plan is an administration suitable to the times, executed through the ages, does not mean that the life of the redeemed is limited to the age. Aionian life lasts through the ages because it is the life of God, and it is immortal- according to the scriptures.
...
When you speak of literal interpretations and translations, all I hear is "literally what I say it is", because you clearly do not accept the literal translation regarding the word destroyed, and you have explained away "all" as a Hebrew idiom that cannot be accepted as it is written, using context as your justification- but I think the context is clear, as well as consistent with the literal translation- and simply means all.
All will be subjected. All will be reconciled. All will be gathered into one in Christ. And God will be all in all. For from Him and thru Him and to Him are all things.
Almost sounds like a Greek story line "...and everyone on earth lived happily ever after, ever after, ever after, never the end."
Like I said, if people want to believe that every man is immortal, go ahead. It's your forum Moderator. I've shared my testimony here that I found that teaching emotionally frightening as a child, and non-literal as an adult. As I've been reading replies to this post, I also see there are others here on the forum who say they prefer not to think too much about everlasting time. And they are adults. It's pretty frightening man, so if you're wrong, then that's an issue...
The Greek mystics and Pharisees preached everlasting souls to their followers, as did many Essenes (who also preached infinite hell). Yahshua didn't join any of their groups. Instead, He commanded,
Thv bThry ("come after me").
When an English translation implies absolutes of infinite time and space and power that are not actually stated in the literal text, I do not think it is fair to present those snippets as if they were clear scripture in support of infinite time and space and power.
A clear statement of infinite time would be, 'Every soul continues for time without end, regardless of worlds and ages' <-- not Yahshua's words, but quite easy to find in Greek literature.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 30, 2016, 08:13:40 PM
Aionian life lasts through the ages because it is the life of God, and it is immortal- according to the scriptures.
So, I gather your argument then is that because God is immortal that men must also be immortal? Yahshua never said that. God is pre-existent too. Shall all men also plan to be pre-existent? If so, then how did Yahshua come before David? Or would your argument be that the infinite time dimension is just a one way street for man?
Quote from: marie glen on January 31, 2016, 12:08:32 AM
YHWH will be any in any?
Notice, Marie, that you are speaking English and have not written the grammar correctly. When you do that, it doesn't sound beautiful in English. But if you use the correct grammar in the language of first century Israel...
Let me give you an example that you already like in English to prove this point, "In God
all things are possible". Notice the 'all'. Now you know and understand that 'all' and 'any' are the same word. The meaning is that to God anything is possible. All things, or one thing, or a million things -- it's God's choice. (Again, if I were writing this in Aramaic, it would sound even better because you'd see the wordplay).
God is the author of possibility. Any man can be saved. But if every man must be saved, then God is limited because he can destroy no man. Any rock can be lifted. But if every rock must be lifted, then God must lift every rock. And so on... do not remove from God what is God's. Possibility is God's. The word "messiah" is a wordplay for "possibility", Marie.
Quote from: marie glen on January 31, 2016, 12:08:32 AM
...
I'm thinking tho if this application in some way glorifies Him, then perhaps it may be possible the slant you propose is correct.. If it less than glorifies His perfect nature, it's simply not possible..
Later! Hope your day is being filled by His awesome Presence.. And thus that wonderful peace which springs up into such enduring joy.. :smile:
Hope I didn't make too many mistakes on this tiny screen :o haha :))
I've really appreciated your post, thank you.
In the study of quantum electrodynamics (QED), light itself is governed by probability. The movement of all electrons and photons are completely entwined with probability.
That is why, again, it is no small thing that in Israel in the first century, the word
kl means both 'all' and 'any'. Like light, it resides in a state of probability until you focus upon it. That is what context does, it focuses.
Greg,
When we say, "In God all things are possible", we mean it. All things are possible. There is nothing that is not possible for God..
When the scripture says God will be all in all, it means just that.
You see, the "Good News" does have a happy ending.
Almost sounds like a Greek story line "...and everyone on earth lived happily ever after, ever after, ever after, never the end." (//http://)
Exactly. It seems you havent noticed the scriptures that have been presented, and are too stuck in your paradigm to give them an real listen.
Your answers have been rhetorical not scriptural.
You rely on "literal translation" on the one hand- then deny literal translation when it suits your doctrine.
The scripture doesnt say "any man can be saved."
Jesus said I will draw all men unto me.
Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess
Colossians 1:15-20 sets the context. All things He created will be reconciled.
1 Cor 15 sets the contest, "For He must reign until every adversary is subjected. The last enemy is death. When all things are subjected he will hand them over to the Father so that God may be all in all."
What is so hard to see there? What enemy will hold out against God forever. His love will triumph over all. His love is the fire. His love is the light. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it.
it is a shame your faith is too small to embrace what the scriptures clearly say. You have stopped a little short of true literal translation.
Greg,
I think it is a rare occurrence that someone can be "debated" and change their position on a belief. It usually results in all parties being more entrenched in their original belief, and that is holding true in this thread.
I am glad you are here and I am glad you have found peace from your childhood fear instilled in you about eternity, and I'm glad you are still a believer, and not an ET proponent :)
The best thing to do is trust God, realize we are blind men describing and elephant (thanks Darryl :)) and thank God he won't roast anyone for eternity :). Pray. Pray for answers, for guidance, for peace, for love. Let God shape us.
The other eons can wait, today is what I focus on.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
:cloud9: @ Greg.....just wondering what you mean by, Messiah is a wordplay for possibility? :dontknow: Thanks in advance for explaining.... :Peace2:
Quote from: GodIsLove on January 31, 2016, 04:15:27 AM
Greg,
I think it is a rare occurrence that someone can be "debated" and change their position on a belief. It usually results in all parties being more entrenched in their original belief, and that is holding true in this thread.
I am glad you are here and I am glad you have found peace from your childhood fear instilled in you about eternity, and I'm glad you are still a believer, and not an ET proponent :)
The best thing to do is trust God, realize we are blind men describing and elephant (thanks Darryl :)) and thank God he won't roast anyone for eternity :). Pray. Pray for answers, for guidance, for peace, for love. Let God shape us.
The other eons can wait, today is what I focus on.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Thank you
:gimmefive:
Mark 10:27-31,
Khr dyn bhun yShuEa uamr lhun luTh bny anSha hda la mShkKha ala luTh alha kl mdm gyr mShkKha luTh alha uShry kapa lmamr ha Khnn Shbqn kl mdm unqpnk Eana yShuEa uamr amyn amr ana lkun dlyTh anSh dShbq bTha au aKha au aKhuTha au aba au ama au anThTha au bnya au qurya mtlThy umtl sbrThy ula nqbl Khd bmaa hSha bzbna hna bTha uaKha uaKhuTha uamhTha ubnya uqurya Eam rdupya ubEalma daTha Khya dlEalm sgyaa dyn qdmya dnhuun aKhrya uaKhrya qdmya"And Yahshua looked in them and said to them, 'To the sons of men this is not possible, but to God
any/all whatever is possible to God. And began Kapa to say 'behold, we have left
any/all whatever and followed you.' Answered Yahshua and said, 'Truly say I to you that there is no man who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields because of me and because of my gospel and not will receive one hundredfold now in this time/exchange houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, with persecutions, and in the world/age to come life that is to a world/age.' And many are first who will be last, and last first."
Quote from: Cardinal on January 31, 2016, 05:02:36 AM
:cloud9: @ Greg.....just wondering what you mean by, Messiah is a wordplay for possibility? :dontknow: Thanks in advance for explaining.... :Peace2:
In the language of the apostles...
mShykKha = possibilities
mShyKha = messiah
I can see, Greg, what you're saying about possibility.. All things possible, of course :smile: for Him.. but not mandated.. Maybe this discussion would have been better on members only board .. don't know.. I'm fascinated by, I don't want to say quantum physics - I don't know much about that .. But I can't think of the right phrase! What it' called , and too lazy to look it up.. At the primordial? level of atoms? their behavior changes under observation / if someone is watching it/them.. possibilities, more for us mortals than we realize.. creative 'power' in our thoughts and words.. But I stray..
But I have a real passion for God's message ( and for truth) and am a simple gal and want with all my heart for the UR message to remain clear and simple, easy to see and grasp and understand.. I consider myself a real nerd about some things! :o
thanks :smile:
I dont think a discussion like this needs to be in a members only room. We here at tentmaker are boldly proclaiming the salvation of all.
I will probably offend somebody by this(but I dont mean to)-I am not here to entertain the possibility of annihilation. I know better. The scriptures do not affirm that theory. The scriptures clearly teach the ultimate reconciliation of all.
And while we cant debate anyone into changing their mind, that is not my reason for maintaining a discussion like this. The only reason to allow a conversation from someone who is promoting annihilation is to, in conversational tone but clear words, refute it. As long as that person appears open and reasonable in discussion it can continue, but I have no intention of making space for someone to teach on this site 1)annihilation or 2) a conditional salvation that can end in annihilation at any point in the ages to come.
I think we have always maintained that this is not a "debate all subjects" site, it is a site for the promotion of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ- the Good News of the salvation of all. But I do appreciate the opportunity to lay out in detail some of the verses that deal with annihilationism, because we more frequently discuss eternal torment in our discussions, but annihilationism, tho not as twisted as ET, is just as incorrect.
At least thats how I see it :)
I have a quick question:
On this thread there is a lot of translation and interpretation of Hebrew words used in the gospels. It is my understanding that most agree that the gospels and letters were either written in Greek, or that the earliest manuscripts we have available are all in Greek. If this is in fact true, then my question is how do we know what Hebrew words were used? I am not questioning that the words that have been presented are not being interpreted correctly, I'm just wondering the source of Hebrew words used in the gospels.
Don't think that I am being flippant, if there are Hebrew manuscripts that are more aged than the Greek, and not just Hebrew translations of the Greek, I would like to be able to study them also.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks,
Pat
p.s. Dec. 31, 2015 "[Note to self-keep love alive!]"
- marie glen
(Sorry I borrowed this Marie, it's just so good!)
Quote from: greg on January 31, 2016, 05:27:24 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on January 31, 2016, 04:15:27 AM
Greg,
I think it is a rare occurrence that someone can be "debated" and change their position on a belief. It usually results in all parties being more entrenched in their original belief, and that is holding true in this thread.
I am glad you are here and I am glad you have found peace from your childhood fear instilled in you about eternity, and I'm glad you are still a believer, and not an ET proponent :)
The best thing to do is trust God, realize we are blind men describing and elephant (thanks Darryl :)) and thank God he won't roast anyone for eternity :). Pray. Pray for answers, for guidance, for peace, for love. Let God shape us.
The other eons can wait, today is what I focus on.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Thank you
:gimmefive:
Mark 10:27-31, Khr dyn bhun yShuEa uamr lhun luTh bny anSha hda la mShkKha ala luTh alha kl mdm gyr mShkKha luTh alha uShry kapa lmamr ha Khnn Shbqn kl mdm unqpnk Eana yShuEa uamr amyn amr ana lkun dlyTh anSh dShbq bTha au aKha au aKhuTha au aba au ama au anThTha au bnya au qurya mtlThy umtl sbrThy ula nqbl Khd bmaa hSha bzbna hna bTha uaKha uaKhuTha uamhTha ubnya uqurya Eam rdupya ubEalma daTha Khya dlEalm sgyaa dyn qdmya dnhuun aKhrya uaKhrya qdmya
"And Yahshua looked in them and said to them, 'To the sons of men this is not possible, but to God any/all whatever is possible to God. And began Kapa to say 'behold, we have left any/all whatever and followed you.' Answered Yahshua and said, 'Truly say I to you that there is no man who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields because of me and because of my gospel and not will receive one hundredfold now in this time/exchange houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, with persecutions, and in the world/age to come life that is to a world/age.' And many are first who will be last, and last first."
Quote from: Cardinal on January 31, 2016, 05:02:36 AM
:cloud9: @ Greg.....just wondering what you mean by, Messiah is a wordplay for possibility? :dontknow: Thanks in advance for explaining.... :Peace2:
In the language of the apostles...
mShykKha = possibilities
mShyKha = messiah
:cloud9: Thank you, I find that fascinating to ponder, ahem, the possibilities... :winkgrin:
Quote from: marie glen on January 31, 2016, 06:20:10 AM
I can see, Greg, what you're saying about possibility.. All things possible, of course :smile: for Him.. but not mandated.. Maybe this discussion would have been better on members only board .. don't know.. I'm fascinated by, I don't want to say quantum physics - I don't know much about that .. But I can't think of the right phrase! What it' called , and too lazy to look it up.. At the primordial? level of atoms? their behavior changes under observation / if someone is watching it/them.. possibilities, more for us mortals than we realize.. creative 'power' in our thoughts and words.. But I stray..
But I have a real passion for God's message ( and for truth) and am a simple gal and want with all my heart for the UR message to remain clear and simple, easy to see and grasp and understand.. I consider myself a real nerd about some things! :o
thanks :smile:
:cloud9: I remember reading that somewhere about the atoms, Marie....makes me wonder if there's some sort of undiscovered catalyst making them change, or if it truly is the Spirit of them reacting. Fascinating stuff.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Patinak on January 31, 2016, 09:35:55 AM
I have a quick question:
On this thread there is a lot of translation and interpretation of Hebrew words used in the gospels. It is my understanding that most agree that the gospels and letters were either written in Greek, or that the earliest manuscripts we have available are all in Greek. If this is in fact true, then my question is how do we know what Hebrew words were used? I am not questioning that the words that have been presented are not being interpreted correctly, I'm just wondering the source of Hebrew words used in the gospels.
Don't think that I am being flippant, if there are Hebrew manuscripts that are more aged than the Greek, and not just Hebrew translations of the Greek, I would like to be able to study them also.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks,
Pat
p.s. Dec. 31, 2015 "[Note to self-keep love alive!]"
- marie glen
(Sorry I borrowed this Marie, it's just so good!)
It is debatable whether most of the gospels were spoken or written in koine greek or hebrew aramaic.
The Septuagint(Greek OT)was translated between 300BCE and 100BCE, mainly because Alexandrian Jews spoke Greek.
The reason Hebrew is important, regardless, is that the scriptures come out of the Hebrew mindset. The purpose of translation is to represent what was in the speakers mind when he spoke as close as possible in contemporary language.
So when the Hebrew was translated into Greek, they didnt make notes as to what, for instance, "olam" meant in Hebrew- they just translated it to aion, but they werent Greeks,they were Jews and they thought like Jews. But when we look at aion today, we compare it to Aristotle and Plato, not to Isaiah and "olam", therefore missing- sometimes- the real meaning, or full meaning of the word. Sometimes it doesnt matter, i mean, a horse is a horse in any tongue. But sometimes it can applicable to a proper understanding.
Sheol is another good example. There is no way to get the meaning of Sheol from Hades(Greek) or Inferno(latin). One has to go back and look at Sheol to understand what Jesus and the apostles are saying whenever they use that word.
the Holy Spirit is able to explain it all without all that just through context... thats how i got UR, but it was nice as the study of Greek and Hebrew confirmed it for me and then I felt like I could teach it to anyone.
I usually use such explanations only when engaging in conversation with someone who is familiar with them.
Amen, EW,
I especially like
QuoteSheol is another good example. There is no way to get the meaning of Sheol from Hades(Greek) or Inferno(latin). One has to go back and look at Sheol to understand what Jesus and the apostles are saying whenever they use that word.
(also) the Holy Spirit is able to explain it all without all that just through context..
:smile:
:cloud9: AMEN EW.... :iagree: :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 31, 2016, 09:24:17 AM
...I do appreciate the opportunity to lay out in detail some of the verses that deal with annihilationism, because we more frequently discuss eternal torment in our discussions...
...
I would be happy to continue this word study – I will read to you from the actual ancient codex of Yahsua's words in Aramaic, the language of Israel in the first century. If you wish, please feel free to present your top three verses (Yahshua's words only please) where you find that your translation supports your premise that 'all men are saved for infinite time', and I will respond by citing the actual text of the gospel
including its full context in the chapter, and I will use bold font to highlight any limiting context.
If you are willing to accept that the word "any/all" is the same word in both Hebrew and Aramaic, and that it only takes meaning in context, then this should help our word study by testing any assumptions that it refers to "all men throughout infinite time and space":
- Mark 6:39, "And he commanded them to seat klnSh on the grass." Is Yahshua commanding the apostles to gather all men throughout infinite time and space and make them sit down on the grass that day in Galilee?
- Mark 13:13, "And you will be hated by klnSh because of my name, but whoever will endure until the end will be saved." Is Yahshua instructing the apostles that all men throughout infinite time and space will hate them, and that whoever will endure to the end will be saved, and by "whoever" he means all men throughout infinite time and space, and by "end" he actually means "no end" because time is infinite?
By the way, another cool thing about
kl meaning "all/any" is that it embodies humility because men do not promise more than they can deliver. It embodies the premise that we cannot make one hair on our heads change color without God. So for example, if you instruct your worker to gather
klmdm ("all/any whatever") apples in your orchard, then your worker just needs to gather "any" that he can to the best of his ability. He does not need to gather "all". If you want him to literally gather them all, every single one, then you would need to say that explicitly in Hebrew/Aramaic with the proper context, such as
knuSh klhyn ula Khd nShThbq ("gather them all and not one shall be left"). You can see this in the bible explicitly in several examples, such as:
- John 1:3, kl baydh hua ublEaduhy apla Khda huTh mdm dhua ("All in His hands existed, and without him not even one existed whatever of existence"). Notice how the second part of this verse puts the first in context to fix the meaning of kl as "all" rather than "any".
- Matthew 5:18, amyn gyr am rana lkun dEadma dnEabrun Shmya uarEa yud Khda au Khd srta la nEabr mn nmusa Eadma dkl nhua ("Believe. For I say to you that until that will cross over heaven and earth, one yod and one stroke not will cross over from the law until that all/any will be.") See also Matthew 5:20 for the concluding context of this verse ("I say to you that if not exceeds your righteousness greater than the scribes and the Pharisees you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.")
- Psalm 14:3, hkl sr yKhdu nalKhu ayn EaShh tub ayn gm aKhd ("All have gone astray together and they have become filthy; there is none who does good; not even one."
- Psalm 34:20, Shmr kl EaTsmuThyu aKhTh mhnh la nShbrh ("He keeps all his bones. Not one of them is broken.") See also John 19:36.
- Psalm 53:3, klu sg yKhdu nalKhu ayn EaShh tub ayn gm aKhd ("All of them is gone back. They are altogether become filthy. None does good. No, not one."
- Isaiah 40:26, Shau mrum Eaynykm urau my bra alh hmuTsya bmspr Tsbam lklm bShm yqra mra mrb aunym uamyTs kKh aySh la nEadr ("Lift up on high your eyes and behold who has created these that brings out by number their host, to all of them by name he calls, of the greatness of his might for that strong of his power. Not one was missing."
- Mark 13:2, "Do you see these great buildings? Not will be left here a stone upon a stone that not will be torn down."
- Incidentally, from a language standpoint, Romans 3:12 also makes this point.
Looking at all these examples, you will begin to appreciate not only the importance of context to either make or limit absolute statements, and also (key point) the importance of the 'negative affirmation' when claiming absolutes. In other words. to claim an absolute, it is not really enough to say in Israel that "all/any" of something should occur. To claim an absolute in Hebrew and Aramaic, it is proper to also add the negative affirmation, "that not one" apple shall be left on the ground, "that not one" soul shall be destroyed, etc.
Without an absolute statement, the matter remains in a state of probability. And in God anything is possible, including the complete destruction of the wicked. Shall destruction not be possible with God? If so, where does the text say that?
I hope this response assists your word study.
Quote from: Patinak on January 31, 2016, 09:35:55 AM
...
On this thread there is a lot of translation and interpretation of Hebrew words used in the gospels. It is my understanding that most agree that the gospels and letters were either written in Greek, or that the earliest manuscripts we have available are all in Greek. If this is in fact true, then my question is how do we know what Hebrew words were used? I am not questioning that the words that have been presented are not being interpreted correctly, I'm just wondering the source of Hebrew words used in the gospels.
Don't think that I am being flippant, if there are Hebrew manuscripts that are more aged than the Greek, and not just Hebrew translations of the Greek, I would like to be able to study them also.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks,
Pat
...
Thank you for your question. I'll respond to your question and also the moderator's comment as he wrote, "It is debatable whether most of the gospels were spoken or written in koine greek or hebrew aramaic.... There is no way to get the meaning of Sheol from Hades(Greek) or Inferno(latin). One has to go back and look at Sheol to understand what Jesus and the apostles are saying whenever they use that word."
My response here is for purpose of word study, not debate or textual criticism...
Yahshua the Messiah and His apostles spoke Aramaic, the language of the people in 1st Century Israel. Modern scholars often refer to this language as Syriac. Aramaic & Syriac are the exact same language, just with different names, so... Aramaic = Syriac. To analogize, English = British.
There is an Aramaic-speaking church on earth today that is actually as old as the Catholic church (indeed, this Aramaic-speaking church (called the Church of the East) is so ancient that scholars don't know which is older, The Church of the East or the Catholic Church). What we do know is that this Aramaic-speaking church has always been separate from the Catholic Church, both physically (it is located in ancient Israel, Syria, Lebanon, etc) and it also has its own scribes that have preserved its own Aramaic text of the gospel independent of the Greek.
There are countless Greek manuscripts at the Vatican that differ in countless ways. But there is only
one Aramaic corpus text in the Church of the East. That text is called the Peshytta, and it does not differ in any way from codex to codex, save for a handful of extremely minor scribal errors here and there.
The Aramaic-speaking church acknowledges 100% that Yahshua is the Messiah, and it has the same canon as the Catholic and Protestant Churches (though the Catholic & Protestant differ a little). The Aramaic-speaking church maintains through ancient writings that it received the original gospel in the Aramaic language directly from the apostles themselves! I know that may sound incredible, but that is their tradition, and I am not one to challenge their ancient texts. Indeed, countless scholars have actually come to accept that the gospel of Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic, such that the Aramaic gospel of Matthew is the best evidence of Yahshua's spoken words. This is because of what scholars call
polysemy -- when multiple Greek texts have different translations that all come from the same Aramaic word.
Here is an example of polysemy generally... suppose that three men in China are translating a book. Each translator writes his own Chinese translation:
- Translator 1: "Mary paid a lot of money to get rid of that annoying blemish."
- Translator 2: "Mary paid a lot of money to get rid of that annoying small burrowing animal."
- Translator 3: "Mary paid a lot of money to get rid of that annoying spy."
We can easily ascertain that the original language of that document was English, because the word
"mole" in English matches all three Chinese translation discrepancies.
This is what scholars have found with Aramaic and Greek. Multiple Greek translations have discrepancies, but they all trace back to a single Aramaic word. The Greek scholar David Bauscher has provided many of the findings in this area:
But, before I provide examples, please note again that this is not a textual criticism, but a textual study in the language spoken by the Messiah and His apostles. The Catholic Church censored this research over the centuries for an obvious reason, but I expect the Tentmaker moderators will be kinder. I will just provide a few examples so you can see what this word study involves if you are interested in further independent study...
Regarding Matthew 27:4, "
zkya – "Zakaia" can mean "victorious", "innocent" or "just"; the Majority Greek text has "alpha-theta-omega-omicron-nu" – "innocent" and the Critical Greek has "delta-iota-kappa-alpha0iota-omicron-nu" – "righteous". The Peshytta reading can explain the Greek readings.
In Matthew 11:19, The Greek has two readings: The Majority of mss. have "works" and the Critical Text (2 mss.) have children". In Aramaic,
Eabdyh can mean either "works" or "servant". The Greek word "Teknon" ("Child") can refer to a disciple or pupil as well.... Since the Aramaic
Eabdyh can mean servant, a Greek translator may easily use a Greek synonym such as "teknon" to translate it. Codices Alep and B have "ergown" – "works", which also can be the meaning of
Eabdyh. The Peshytta can explain the origin of both Greek readings and why two readings exist.
Regarding Matthew 14:12, Grek mss. B0-Vaticanus (4th Cent.) and [font="Estrangelo (V1.1)"]0[/font] (4th cent.) have pi-tau-omega-mu-alpha – "corpse" and the Majority text has sigma-omega-mu-alpha – "body". Either one Greek translator mistook "Shlada" for "Pagra", or we have a case of split meanings of an Aramaic word, "Shlada" being translated "Corpse" by one Greek translator and "Body" by another. It can have either meaning in Aramaic. Mark 15:45 has the same word split phenomenon in the Greek texts with Aramaic word Pagra. The Critical text of Westcott and Hort has pi-tau-omega-mu-alpha – "corpse" and the Majority text has sigma-omega-mu-alpha – "body", as in this verse.
Revelation 14:20:"Greek mss. have "a thousand, six hundred stadia"; the Greek ms. Aleph (
a, 4th cent.) has - "a thousand two hundred", as does the Philoxenian Syriac Version (early 6th cent.)... If the Aramaic is the original, how did most Greek mss. get 600 instead of 200? Ah, but the Aramaic
wmaThyn is 600 and 200! How? The Aramaic language uses letters for numbers as well as words.
wmaThyn can mean "and two hundred" (which it most likely does) or it can be interpreted as "(hundreds)
maThyn (six)
w since
w – (waw) is also used for the number six. The Greek interpretation may have been influenced by the Hebrew form for "hundreds" –
mawTh; The correct Aramaic form would be
maa. The more accurate use of this method would actually give – "xix –two hundreds" which is exactly what the Sinaiticus has! (Greek does not have a six –two hundreds). So the 4th Century Greek Sinaiticus bears witness to the Aramaic text of Revelation (The only Greek ms. With 1200 stadia in this place) as does The Majority Greek Text with its subtle but sloppy use of Gematria to obtain 1600 stadia."
Revelation 13:1: "The majority and Critical Greek has "names" – νματα. The Aramaic
Shma is singular. Whoever penned the original Crawford Aramaic text was highly expert in the language; if he was translating from Greek, he would have known easily the difference between the singular Greek νμα and the plural νματα; only 3 old Greek mss. & the Textus Receptus Greek mss. Have the singular νμα "name". The fact that the Crawford has
Shma ("name") mitigates strongly against a Greek original behind it; if it were a translation of Greek, it would have
Shmha ("names") or
Shmhyn ("names"), as does the Harklean Syriac version – (
Shmha), unless one would argue the Crawford was translated from the Textus Receptus Greek text, since it agrees with that text alone in two readings in this verse: "I stood" and "names". But that would be difficult to maintain since the TR disagrees with the Crawford in quite a few major readings in Revelation. Even in this verse, the word order of the two texts differs for "ten horns and seven heads"."
The bottom line is that it's evidence, so it adds up. But if the Father wanted Aramaic primacy to be self-evident anywhere, it would be. For example, the first words of Revelation would be "This book was originally written in Aramaic by Yahshua's apostle John". And for that matter, the Torah would be written in unblemished Hebrew right in the big blue sky for all to obey. But no, that's not our world. Our world is one of perspective and lost history because it is what helps us grow, and what we deserve.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 31, 2016, 09:24:17 AM
I dont think a discussion like this needs to be in a members only room. We here at tentmaker are boldly proclaiming the salvation of all.
I will probably offend somebody by this(but I dont mean to)-I am not here to entertain the possibility of annihilation. I know better. The scriptures do not affirm that theory. The scriptures clearly teach the ultimate reconciliation of all.
And while we cant debate anyone into changing their mind, that is not my reason for maintaining a discussion like this. The only reason to allow a conversation from someone who is promoting annihilation is to, in conversational tone but clear words, refute it. As long as that person appears open and reasonable in discussion it can continue, but I have no intention of making space for someone to teach on this site 1)annihilation or 2) a conditional salvation that can end in annihilation at any point in the ages to come.
I think we have always maintained that this is not a "debate all subjects" site, it is a site for the promotion of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ- the Good News of the salvation of all. But I do appreciate the opportunity to lay out in detail some of the verses that deal with annihilationism, because we more frequently discuss eternal torment in our discussions, but annihilationism, tho not as twisted as ET, is just as incorrect.
At least thats how I see it :)
I agree. I'm watching this thread, and as long as respectful discussion is the means of presenting information, as well as in the spirit of "I believe", "as I understand" etc., then it can continue for awhile. But if it just crosses into debating, arguing, including with any personal insulting, etc., that's just not what we're here for, and the thread will be locked as the mods have discussed. Also at some point if it's much more apparent than it already is, that everyone's just locked into their position and things just begin to fruitlessly loop (ha, I didn't mean to do that. Fruit loops, get it? :laugh:) ) then that's another reason that we'll just need to move on to other things. :Peace2:
Well, again Greg, you are majoring on the minors.
I have listed a lot of scripture that says God saves all in plain terms, and you have yet to address that body of scripture. But just to humor you about "all" :o)
If I say "all the figs in the basket", then the basket becomes a subset of all figs.
If i say "all figs grow on trees", then there is no subset. Each and every figs that ever was came off a tree.
In Colossians 1:15-20 the context is pretty clear.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
There clearly is, as I am sure you would agree, no subset to "all" in these verses- without looking at pas(gr) we can clearly see and know, Jesus created "all".
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Here also, clearly, as creator and sustainer, as it says in hebrews 1, "all things hold together by the word of His power"- and there is no subset to "all".
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in "everything"( same word in Gr, pas- "all")).
Here and now, in this world age, we do have a subset, He is "head over all things to the church"(Eph 1), but He will become head over "all"- no subset - "For he must reign until every adversary is made a footstool for His feet"(1 Cor 15). As it is written in Eph 4, "he who descended is he who also ascended that He might fill all things". And as it is written in Eph 1, ....."the gathering together of all things into one in Christ, whether things in heaven or things on earth"
19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile "all things"(pas) to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
So Paul sets the context for all here. No subset. All he created, All he is before, All he is over, All He holds together, All in heaven and earth- reconciled by the blood of His cross.
"through Him I say"- as re-emphasis and further definition, things in heaven or earth- as all these other verses also assert.
This is the much more reasonable and understandable, "God of children", who disciplines them for their correction, and an eventual return to their Father. This wisdom will not frighten a little child, it will meet there sense of justice, because it is just- and true- and good. Mercy triumphs over judgment in the end, as it should.
The purpose of God indwelling the Messiah was to fill all things. "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things" Rom 11:36 is not just a doxology. It is a macro-view of the plans and purpose, the wisdom and counsel of God, which is re-iterated in Eph 1;9-11; Col 1:15-20; 1 Cor 15:18-23 and a half dozen other scriptures not the least of which is this.....
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
This language is so prohibitively consistent that it overwhelmingly means "all" without reserve, including every former adversary, even as we were once adversaries. Jesus must reign over all so that God may become all in all.
Jesus must ascend over all so that he may fill all things.
For so it pleased the father to make all the fulness dwell in him so that he might reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross, I say whether things in heaven or on earth.
It makes no sense that God will be all over some.
Jesus has not ascended over all that he may fill "some things".
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
it is not the summing up of "some things".
This kind intention(eph 1), "For so it pleased the Father" (col 1), is to gather all things together in one in Christ(eph 1) for the purpose of the "reconciliation of all"(col 1), not the destruction of many- reconciling all things whether in heaven or earth, not "some".
In Phil 2 we see again that His being lifted up from the earth will result in all men being drawn unto Him, for "every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth".
So that God may be all in all.... that is the goal of all God's wisdom from before the creation of the world, when he envisioned the Lamb slain as the core of the creative act- AND THE REASON FOR IT................ a redeemed renewed restored creation in deeper love for the redemptive act, having walked on the dark side and all now as one fully appreciating the light.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 31, 2016, 09:24:21 PM
Well, again Greg, you are majoring on the minors.
I have listed a lot of scripture that says God saves all in plain terms, and you have yet to address that body of scripture. But just to humor you about "all" :o)
...
Respectfully, I was actually suggesting for purposes of this word study, "If you wish, please feel free to present your top three verses (Yahshua's words only please) where you find that your translation supports your premise that 'all men are saved for infinite time'..."
I actually didn't see any of Yahshua's words in your response. Matthew 23:8, "But you shall not be called rabbi, for One is your rabbi, but you are all brothers."
To help get back on the topic of this thread, we were discussing Mark 10:30. This thread is not about annihilation directly, but rather it is about the
specific time and specific place of Yahshua's promise to the saved. What did Yahshua say specifically? In Mark 10:30, the
definite article is used in both the Greek and the Aramaic. That grammar is the reality check for preacher's of man's infinite soul...
In other words, how can the
definite article be utilized if Yahshua is referring to infinity? The definite article is utilized consistently 100% in the gospel to refer to a
finite world/age. That is why preachers of man's infinity soul are required to ignore the literal grammar, and simply rely on their own non-literal translations. But for someone like me who reads the actual text in Aramaic and Greek, I can see plainly that the non-literal preachers have a problem here. Mark 10:30 is the elephant in the room for non-literalists.
John, if you're discussing with someone who dismisses the bulk of the NT, to the exclusion of all but the "red letters", then IMO this quickly becomes an exercise in futility.
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2016, 10:07:20 PM
John, if you're discussing with someone who dismisses the bulk of the NT, to the exclusion of all but the "red letters", then IMO this quickly becomes an exercise in futility.
Dismiss, no. Focus for purpose of word study, yes.
Focusing on Yahshua's words is not futile, moderator. His words have life.
Greg,
Thanks for taking the time to give such a thorough response to my question. I do appreciate it.
Because I am of what would be called of preterist leaning, a lot of what you have presented fits well in that camp. Jesus said he came for the lost sheep of Israel, and as you know, some of us believe that the gospels were all about the things happening in "this age" and "the age to come". I see "this age" as the time Jesus was presently speaking about, and "the age to come" as the next 40 years or so leading up to the end of the temple system of worship, and the 'New Deal'(my words).
I think Paul also had a lot to say about those "end times" in his letters, along with other mysteries he reveals to us.
And what remains for us: "faith, hope, and love". (And I believe, life without end.)
Thanks everyone, this is such a great refuge!
Pat
John,
Thank you for your explanation also. I know I speak for many when I say I appreciate all of your thought provoking comments. I also appreciate the amount of 'slack' you allow at times for the sake of making sure the truth prevails.
Thanks to all that make this site possible: Gary, James, John, Rebecca, Tech People, All Participants, Holy Spirit!
Amen
Quote from: greg on January 31, 2016, 10:15:56 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2016, 10:07:20 PM
John, if you're discussing with someone who dismisses the bulk of the NT, to the exclusion of all but the "red letters", then IMO this quickly becomes an exercise in futility.
Dismiss, no. Focus for purpose of word study, yes.
Focusing on Yahshua's words is not futile, moderator. His words have life.
Greg I'm not going argue with you about the reliability of the Scriptures. Of course you've dismissed them. You've already presented your evidence, earlier calling Paul a liar, as well as dismissing what John has presented to you if he says anything that are the words of the Holy Spirit spoken through Paul. Of course Jesus's words have life and are important but they're not the only quotes in the Scriptures. Paul said he preached the whole counsel of God and if that's just tossed out in the discussion then again it becomes fruitless. So if you insist on ignoring the rest of the Scriptures in the NT besides the Gospels, then we will probably just need to lock this and move on.
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2016, 10:36:33 PM
Quote from: greg on January 31, 2016, 10:15:56 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2016, 10:07:20 PM
John, if you're discussing with someone who dismisses the bulk of the NT, to the exclusion of all but the "red letters", then IMO this quickly becomes an exercise in futility.
Dismiss, no. Focus for purpose of word study, yes.
Focusing on Yahshua's words is not futile, moderator. His words have life.
hey Greg I'm not going argue with you about the reliability of the Scriptures. Of course you're dismissed him you've said so by earlier calling Paul a liar etc. and of course Jesus's words have life and are important but they're not the only quotes in the Scriptures. Call said he preached the whole counsel of God and if that's just tossed out in the discussion then again it becomes fruitless. So if you insist on ignoring the rest of the Scriptures then will probably just need to lock this and move on. Also I recognize your consistent term of "moderator" as insulting little digs don't think it's not noticed
Technically, in
my own words I simply asked
questions about Paul, without calling him a liar. For example, I asked why did
klhun ("all of them") in Asia reject him? Did those Christians in Asia not have the gospel from the apostles chosen by the Messiah? My personal view on Paul is that the Father knows precisely the value of his words and purpose of his position, just as every hair on our heads is counted.
John 13:16, "Truly, truly say I to you, that there is not a worker who is greater than his master, nor an apostle greater than he who sent him."
John 3:30-31, "To him, it is necessary to increase and to me [John the Baptist] to decrease."
Regarding the title moderator, I've been addressing you and the other moderator as moderator because you have been interjecting comments as moderators (i.e., citing Tentmaker forum policies, discussing whether to censor me). In other posts where you do not speak that way, I have addressed you by your screen names. When I address a judge in court, I call him "judge" because he acts like a judge.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 31, 2016, 03:22:42 AM
...
it is a shame your faith is too small to embrace what the scriptures clearly say. You have stopped a little short of true literal translation.
I must admit I have typed some biting replies in my notes, and then edited them in reflection either before posting or shortly afterward. This is obviously a charged topic; but that does not mean it is not worthwhile to pursue. I am trying to carry the weight of your forum rules here (for example, I went back to an earlier post and (as EW mod suggested) edited out all comments about Paul that came from another website; as I read those comments in more detail, I saw some were clearly false)...
Is Paul necessary to my salvation? Is Paul necessary to UR? How could it be a problem for me to write, "If you wish, please feel free to present your top three verses (Yahshua's words only please) where you find that your translation supports your premise that 'all men are saved for infinite time'..."
There are several things about ancient languages and grammar that people have learned in the course of this thread.
As moderators, you have been given the power to make the thread finite though if you wish to annihilate it. It is possible for you to do that. :laughing7:
My expectation is that you'll be kind, and I appreciate you allowing me to share this word study about the definite article in Mark 10:30.
1 Tim 1;14,15 " Yet exceeding abundant was the grace of our Lord, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. The saying is faithful, and worthy of all acceptance, that Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief. Nevertheless, mercy was shown me on this account, that Christ Jesus might show in me, the chief, His entire longsuffering, for an example of them about to believe on Him to life age-abiding."
* So was Jesus successful?
Romans 9 through 11 by Paul seem to indicate the precision of God's plan.
Regarding asking for Jesus's words to say plainly that all will ultimately be reconciled to God...Jesus spoke in parables. He said:
John 16:
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."
And:
John 14
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you."
So in Jesus's own words he admits he has not told his apostles everything and that the Holy Spirit would come and "guide you into all truth" and "show you things to come."
These next few passages aren't what you are looking for (plain language that Jesus spoke that says "all will be reconciled to God to live eternally") but they show that God gave Jesus all flesh...and that all that God gave him he will give life anionios
John 16
"All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."
John 17
"Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."
Like I said, I think that we can find UR elsewhere in the bible and the Holy Spirit can "guide us into the truth" as well, so I don't think it is necessary for Jesus to have spoken God's ultimate plan in plain language to the apostles. Jesus focused on teaching how to live an anionios life in the here and now (loving one another, giving to the poor, not judging our neighbors, turning the other cheek, living a moral life in thought as well as deed (anger is just as bad as murder, lust is just as bad as adultery) because our thoughts are what give birth to action. He taught how to escape the judgments and repercussions of sin, he rebuked the self-righteous. He also wanted to be crucified so he had to act in a certain way that would ensure he would be put to death.
Jesus wanted to warn people of the destructiveness of sin and "Gehenna" judgments. UR comes after all of that, when God, finally, is all in all.
If there were two destinations to an island paradise, one way was to sail to the island on a safe and calm ship and the other was to swim through rough seas--- as your friend, if I saw you swimming in the sea, would I think to myself that I won't tell you how to get there safely on the boat...I know you will get there eventually swimming through the rough sea. Or would I tell you repeatedly to sail on the boat, and that the other way is to be avoided because it is just a terrible idea? Yes, everyone will get to be reunited with God, but Jesus was here on earth 1) to be crucified 2) to share the good news that he is the safe boat.
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 01, 2016, 03:48:03 AM
Jesus wanted to warn people of the destructiveness of sin and "Gehenna" judgments. UR comes after all of that, when God, finally, is all in all.
If there were two destinations to an island paradise, one way was to sail to the island on a safe and calm ship and the other was to swim through rough seas--- as your friend, if I saw you swimming in the sea, would I think to myself that I won't tell you how to get there safely on the boat...I know you will get there eventually swimming through the rough sea. Or would I tell you repeatedly to sail on the boat, and that the other way is to be avoided because it is just a terrible idea? Yes, everyone will get to be reunited with God, but Jesus was here on earth 1) to be crucified 2) to share the good news that he is the safe boat.
yes..I like that metaphor of the strong steady boat vs swimming thru rough sea ! :dsunny: :thumbsup:
What great verses you have posted, GodIsLove.. Beautiful and enlightening on how the Holy Spirit is guiding Jesus' own into all truth. I hadn't thought about that in relation to this topic.. That much He didn't speak.. And some He did.. and in the light of there was no 'hell' theory in that day, not in connection with the scriptures and Israel.. It was prophesied "light to the Gentiles".. And judgment in the Old Testament was earthly..
To add to this thread, I would only say those in Asia who were turning away from Paul were trying to have prominence and not for the Spirit's sake but for self and the lower and carnal nature.
In all likelihood they were the up and rising, gathering steam, Gnostics, who wanted the pre-eminance.. They were not holding to the head.
The Gnostics - "knowledge falsely called".. It wasn't Jesus who saved it was special "knowledge". They didn't think Jesus actually came in the flesh-here human body/matter, not 'flesh' as the lower, carnal nature-translated flesh - because they viewed matter as evil. Spirit was good. That was okay, but they had adopted the Greek Platonic idea of matter as the opposite of Spirit was evil, so how could Jesus have come in the flesh? They believed the Spirit of Jesus was in him at baptism and left before crucifixion.. "This is antiChrist little children, he who denies Jesus came in the flesh"
These folks were rather fierce enemies of the cross/gospel, preaching "another gospel".. They were "vain babblers" , puffed up, thinking they alone had hidden secret knowledge.. Convincing theirselves they were all that, wise over others, proclaiming their selves leaders and wise. Every word of Jesus could only be interpreted by them as secret knowing and knowledge... arguing over geneologies and myths and "knowledge" Jesus called "the depths of Satan" -
Sorry if I'm repeating myself I'm on this tiny screen again :faint:
Some gnostic groups were very ascetic, touch not, eat not, etc, etc.. Others were immoral and licentious since everything of the body, eating or whatnot was all evil so what the hey. Such was the nicolaitans and let likely Jezebel.. Likely the source of hell and other less than true doctrines..
Whereas Paul's teaching and writing builds on the foundation of the prophets and Old Testament.. And his insights into the unfolding of the gospel are quite profound and like puzzle pieces fit perfectly. He was the ("appointed" apostle to the Gentiles, which too, the gospel to the Gentiles was prophesied too.
Paul as we know was no stranger to opposition! Beaten, abused, stoned.. Notice how Luke traveled with him for a while.. In Acts switching to "we" onward for a while from Philippi.. Then also Timothy and Titus worked with him. He was definitely an integral and central figure in that earliest, forming body of believers.. Just think how much ground he covered, literally and figuratively. And very much used of the Lord to begin and to establish so many first churches! It's really quite something to think about.. Hope I didn't write a book.. Or too many typos.. :mshock:
:cloud9: Some good points Marie.....just wanted to add some understanding on the antichrist spirit and how it was shown to me early on. About 2 weeks before I came to the Lord, I was put on the phone with my friend's Baptist minister who did a dozen questions and all I could say was I don't know what you're talking about. I could not say Jesus lived inside me, in fact, I told my friend her pastor actually asked me if someone else was living inside me, lol. I thought he was a loon, and told her so. How was THAT even possible?
Two weeks after that, I was in his church with her, the Spirit moved me out of my seat where I had been sobbing since the kids church sang "Jesus loves you" at the beginning, and ALL through his service, to go up front for something he called "invitation". I had NO CLUE what that meant, told my friend I felt I was to go up there but what do I do when I get there? She went with me. I didn't know it, but she was backslidden.
Anyway, he starts asking me the same questions, and to my shock, I can only answer yes and sobbing. See, I had received Him by myself on the way to paralegal classes 3 nights before and had told no one of my "unusual prayers and breakdown" in my car on the way to Indy, about 1.5 hour drive of sobbing.
So when I heard that if a man could not say Jesus had come in the flesh he was antichrist in a church a few weeks later that made no sense to me because I always believed He was the son of God, and that He had come in the flesh, and I could say that. I asked the Lord about it.
He pointed out that no man could say Jesus had come in THEIR FLESH, except through the power of the Holy Ghost. Contradiction solved. I was living proof, before and after. What a difference a day makes, Amen? :friendstu:
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened.
Behold, I am making all things new!
Sometimes we cant see around a wall that is before us, until someone lifts us up, or until we ascend to higher ground.
"I dwell in the high and holy place, and with those who are of a broken and a contrite heart."
I can see Jesus Christ the WORD MADE flesh as the little leaven that parable the good leaven means'' influence'' millions over the course of time ,,[woman with 3 measures of meal]
woman is significant as the being the church and 3 as days and the meal being the grain [bread of heaven]
By one man came sin [ Adam did not ''listen'' to the Fathers instruction, Jesus hears and come to do nothing but what Father asks [ the other parable of 2 sons also ]
Jesus Christ come in the time of great Violence against the Spirit of God
All these centuries of carnal minds ruling , to be carnally minded is death , so death was in control , those with Holy Spirit guidance was always before them leading them or behind them fighting for them , When Christ Cross made it withing you , not before or after , but in the very center of your being
And the exceptions of those with Christ around ''with them'' of old ,,,
The lives of men were brutish and poor quality , the Word of God said , The kingdom of God / spiritual heaven was entered only by violence till the time of John the baptist , and he is represents signifies and symbolizes as it as the least in the kingdom
The lesser light , Jesus Come as the Light of the WORLD as NOONDAY if you read the accounts of Joshua , we can certainly see What was , the shadow of the good things to come and Christ what is
and what will be is the Light 7 times brighter than the sun [ fulness ] in Rev 20, 21& 22
Paul from Saul meaning asked [parable of the 1 son ] Paul's new name given by the Lord Jesus Christ and chosen , called out of the world represents , meaning small or little , this is benjamin of old the little one with the silver cup in his sack , on the road to Damascus , and Damascus spiritual meaning is the sack full of blood , the cup of blood or new wine was from all the prophets of old bloodshed and in Christ making it new and fulfilling all these things of old foretelling prophecy in THE WORD OF GOD / JESUS CHRIST and so both the old and new wine of wisdom has mixed her wine
Proverbs 9 The Way of Wisdom
1Wisdom has built her house, She has hewn out her seven pillars; 2She has prepared her food, she has mixed her wine; She has also set her table; 3She has sent out her maidens, she calls From the tops of the heights of the city:
It is just amazing how much the puzzle pieces fit together Marie !!!!!! Paul is the messenger sent to the gentiles [ all other nations ] but Israel to invite to the LORDS SUPPER , HEAVEN is open and ready to receive the guest this parable , made plain speech by the Holy Spirit
Guest invite everyone to my supper Matthew 22 the marriage supper of the lamb ,,,,, the Lamb of God is the King as the old and new are in union , Joined by the LORD JESUS CHRIST / WORD OF GOD AND SPIRIT OF TRUTH AS ONE AT THAT CROSS ...
And there is so much more than these things , that all things being fulfilled in Christ the anointed WORD OF GOD BY HOLY SPIRIT WITNESS ..
The testimony of Jesus Christ = IS the Spirit of prophecy and comes in peace and joy in the Lord is the only way to enter the kingdom of GOD without being cast out ...
LOVE FEAST and center as some guests are still entering in the last hour . :HeartThrob: Lo I am with you always until the end of the age feasting at the Kings table with Him and all gathered as ONE , HOLY ONE SPIRIT
Matt28 ...19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on February 01, 2016, 12:11:24 PM
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened.
Behold, I am making all things new!
Sometimes we cant see around a wall that is before us, until someone lifts us up, or until we ascend to higher ground.
"I dwell in the high and holy place, and with those who are of a broken and a contrite heart."
Oh my goodness John , same witness and same time , while writing this you were posting this :dsunny: :iagree:
I love out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses the truth will be established !!!!!!!!!
Love how He is in our midst!!! :grouppray:
Holy Spirit is moving and breathing on us all at this time and am in awe of Gods mercy and grace towards us !!! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on February 01, 2016, 12:11:24 PM
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
You have cited the Messiah's words in John 12:32. As I explained in some detail in post 47 (http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/mark-1030-reality-check-for-preachers-of-man's-infinity-soul/msg195121/#msg195121), the context for
klnSh ("anyone") is set in John 12:25, where Yahshua states, "
Whoever loves his life shall destroy it and whoever hates his life in this world shall guard it to life, to a world/age." In this context, we read John 12:32, that he will draw anyone to him. If God decides this is everyone, then so it shall be. If God decides this is anyone, then so it shall be. As students, we must respect the literal text in this manner. And as children of God, we must not take from God that which is God's. "The things hidden are to YHWH our God, and the things revealed are to us and to our sons -- to the age, to do all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29. Proverbs 25:2, "The honor of God is to hide a thing, And the honor of kings to search out a matter."
EW, you said correctly yourself, "Sometimes we cant see around a wall that is before us..." That's what I'm saying too. This Hebrew & Aramaic word
kl is not fully revealed while it remains in a state of possibility outside of context. To a native speaker in Israel, John 12:25 would not be heard standing alone as an implied declaration for infinite time and space, but rather spoken in the specific space and time context actually provided literally in John 12:25-35.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 01, 2016, 12:11:24 PM
The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened.
You have cited the Mesiah's words in Matthew 13:33. Here the Messiah is referring explicitly to a specific place: the kingdom of heaven. But he does not say that all men throughout time and space are included in the kingdom of heaven, nor that any men in this this kingdom of heaven continue for infinite time.
Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
Remember also Matthew 5:18,
amyn gyr am rana lkun dEadma dnEabrun Shmya uarEa yud Khda au Khd srta la nEabr mn nmusa Eadma dkl nhua ("Believe. For I say to you that until that will cross over heaven and earth, one yod and one stroke not will cross over from the law until that all/any will be." which is followed by Matthew 5:20, "I say to you that
if not exceeds your righteousness greater than the scribes and the Pharisees
you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.") So, logically, if everyone's righteousness eventually exceeds the scribes and Pharisees to get to heaven, why doesn't Yahshua say
Eadma "until" your righteousness exceeds. Instead he says,
dan la "if not". Again, the Messiah is literally stating a word for possibility ("if") in the text. In God anything is possible. We are not allowed to force God to save everything, or destroy anything. It is God's choice.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 01, 2016, 12:11:24 PM
Behold, I am making all things new!
You have cited the Messiah's words in Revelation 21:5. The context provided is a specific place on earth, New Jerusalem.
Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
In Rev 21:4, the text refers to the new earth when it says 'death will not be' in that one particular world/age. Indeed, one of the key limiting words used in this verse
mkyl ("now" or "therefore") is used throughout the gospel in a limiting sense to some measurable amount of time or a measurable conclusion in a current world/age. See e.g., Matthew 26:45 (referring to one night's sleep), Mark 11:14 (referring to the present world in comparison to a world to come), Mark 14:41 (same as Matthew 26:45), John 14:30 (messiah says he won't speak again at that time rather than ever again); John 17:11 (messiah says he won't be in the world again at that time rather than ever again). Even the root of the word is
mn kul ("from measurement").
The word
mkyl is a combination of the roots
mn ("from") and
kl ("any/all"), so it is naturally dependent on context for meaning (i.e., from who/what/where/when; all/any of who/what/where/when). Here the context is set in terms of new Jerusalem in the new age/world; so that is the specific 'Where' and 'When' that sets the context for how "death will not be thereforward," in new Jerusalem in the new age/world. This verse does not say that the new Jerusalem in the new world/age continues for perpetual time or exists outside of time. To claim perpetual time or eternal time from this verse would be an assumption outside the literal text.
everyone who believes in Jesus Christ has a righteousness far above those of the Pharisee's and Sadducee's.................
they believed the truth/believed God. the Pharisees's and Sadducee's didn't.
mustn't lay up heavy loads on men's shoulder's impossible to bear..eh? Greg.
And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." 6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end."
The context is the Alpha Omega, "For from Him(Alpha) and through Him and to Him(Omega) are all things"(Rom 11:26)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation(Alpha). 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven(Omega). Col 1
The new Jerusalem is not of the earth.... we are seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.....
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Heb 12
But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. Gal 4:26
And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations(peoples- ha goyim).
He will swallow up death for all time, Isaiah 25:7,8
The veil is death.
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor 4)
When God is all in all, all will have been made new, death will be no more, there will be no more dying, ONLY LIFE.
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits(Alpha) of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all[b](Omega)[/b].
His reign is about the reconciliation of all. He rules in order to redeem. His ascension is about a process of Jesus Christ gathering all creation into life. Life reigning over death until death is no more.
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God(Alpha), did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.(Omega)
His name is LIFE. His being "lifted up from the earth" is because of the cross, but involves more than the cross. He is drawing all men unto Him because His exaltation is the result of His ultimate humiliation.... "No Greater Love".
This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."'
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified."(Acts 2)
He descended to the uttermost, therefore he ascends to the uttermost..
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,
"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things(Eph 4)
It is everywhere, all over the scriptures.
The context in Rev 21:5 is Jesus, ascended above all heavens, so that He might fill all things.
We are the Bride "coming down out of heaven"
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, THE FULLNESS OF HIM WHO FILLS ALL IN ALL.
Eph 1
We are the first fruits of the kingdom of God, 'which is likened unto a woman who hid a measure of leaven in three gallons of dough until it was all leavened".....
In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. James 1:18
In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. Eph 1
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8)
The leaven of the kingdom is hidden in us, but it will leaven the whole creation in the ages to come.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Our work is His work and it will be the ministry of reconciliation through out the world ages that remain until all are free from futility, all gathered out of death into life.
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."(Rev 5:13)
The context of Rev 21:5 is Christ enthroned in the heavens, Christ enthroned over time, Christ enthroned within the ecclesia. Christ filling all things. Nullifying death. God gathering everything in heaven and on earth into one in Christ.
Jesus Christ reigns in life. YHWH is the God of the Living. Jesus the creator of all life.(Alpha) Jesus the destroyer of death and the redeemer of all life(Omega)
Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen, amen..
lots of great verses..!
"It is everywhere, all over the scriptures."
"The leaven of the kingdom is hidden in us, but it will leaven the whole creation in the ages to come."
"A 2 Z" (a to z :smile: ) doesn't leave much "outside"...
"Jesus has not ascended over all that he may fill "some things" :thumbsup:
.........."God is love" - "Love NEVER fails" ..never..
:thumbsup:
I love that love never fails :o)
:cloud9: Amen John.....always.... right.on.point. :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on February 01, 2016, 06:43:47 PM
"Write, for these words are faithful and true." 6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end."
This quote from the Messiah is found in Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 22:13.
Here is the fuller context of the quote in Revelation 22:10-13
zbna gyr qrb udmEaul Thub nEaul udTsEa Thub nTstEaTsEa uzdyqa Thub nEabd zdyquTha uqdySha Thub nThqdSh ha aTha ana mKhda uagry Eamy uaThl lklnSh ayk Eabdh ana alp uana tu qdmya uaKhrya uShurya uShulma ("For the time/exchange approaches. And he being unjust/oppressive/lawless again will be being unjust/oppressive/lawless. And he polluted/foul/impure again will pollute/foul. And the righteous again will work righteousness and the holy again will be holy. Behold, I come immediately and my reward with me. And I give to anyone/all-men like his works. I am aleph. And I am tav. The first and the last, and the beginning/origin and the completion/deliverance."
This one is a little better for your position, because the translation of
klnSh as "anyone" in Revelation 22:12 doesn't seem to be suggested by the context. The context is broad (i.e., aleph to tav) and appears to be governing all men that were just literally described in Revelation 22:11 (i.e, the unjust will be unjust again; the righteous will be righteous again).
The literal text specifies that
the Messiah is the beginning and
the end. The time and space context is 'the Messiah' ("I") and 'the Word' (aleph and tav).
The Messiah does not say that saved persons
are the Word. Nor does he say that saved persons live for
infinite time.
Imagine a Christian named Joeb Oltestamint who tried to claim that he is Alpha & Omega, the beginning and the completion? What would God say to our friend Joeb. Recall Job 38:4, "Where were you [Job] when I [YHWH] founded earth? Declare, if you have known understanding."
Would our friend Joeb really assume that tav (omega) suggests infinite time? Tav and Omega are simply the last letters of their respective alphabets. They represent
the end of an alphabet/world built on words, not the continuation of the infinite time dimension for all future ages and worlds.
As YHWH transforms all things and as heaven and earth pass away (as Psalm 102:25-27 says), anything outside aleph to tav represents something beyond our horizon. Is it not possible to God that there are dimensions and worlds and ages that are not built on the 22-Hebrew letters, aleph through tav? Indeed, the Messiah here describes tav (omega) as "the end". Students interested in further study here should consider
aTha as a title of honor and prophecy for the Messiah.
Again, there is no guarantee in the literal gospel that every human on this one earth will continue to be saved throughout infinite time and space and other dimensions. You're free to believe that if you want, but...
Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is
able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."
There's that word again "able". In Aramaic, it is the same root word as "possible".
Quote from: eaglesway on February 01, 2016, 06:43:47 PM
And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations(peoples- ha goyim).
He will swallow up death for all time, Isaiah 25:7,8
First, please notice the entire quote in the chapter, Isaiah 25:6-8
uEaShh yhuh TsbauTh lkl hEamym bhr hzh mShThh Shmnym mShThh Shmrym Shmnym mmKhym Shmrym mzqqym ublEa bhr hzh pny hlut hlut Eal kl hEamym uhmskh hnsukh Eal kl hguym blEa hmuTh lnTsKh umKhh adny yhuh dmEah mEal pnym uKhrpTh Eamu ysyr mEal kl harTs ky yhuh ("And shall make YHWH of hosts for
all/any people in this mountain a feast of fat things a feast of wines on the lees of fat things full of marrow of wines on the lees well refined. And he will swallow up
in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all the people, that the veil is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death completely and will wipe away the Lord YHWH tears from upon all faces. And the rebuke of his people he shall take away from off
all the land, for YHWH has spoken."
The time and space context is at least initially limited to "all/any people in this mountain" and 'earthly meals' of "fat things" and bone "marrow" and "wines on the lees". It does not refer to infinite time and space. Further, the text is limited to the way the rebuke is lifted off "the land". Throughout the bible,
harTs ("land") is a specific place on earth (usually referring to one region on the surface of the earth in context), and does not refer to infinite time and space and dimensions.
Second, notice that the word
blEa ("swallow") literally means "swallow/consume/cover". It does not literally mean 'destroy' or 'annihilate'. Indeed, throughout the old testament
blEa routinely means to conceal for a limited time:
- Numbers 4:20 – the holy things are blEa ("covered") in the Tabernacle; they are not 'annihilated' in the tabernacle
- Jonah 1:17 – a large fish blEa ("swallowed up") Jonah for three days and three nights, and afterwards Jonah was fine
- 2 Samuel 2:20 – distinguishing the word ablEa ("swallowed up") from the word aShKhyTh ("destroy")
- Job 20:15 – riches are blEa ("swallowed up") but then God orders them to come right back out of the mouth
In order for
blEa to indicate utter annihilation, there must be additional context and additional words provided. And again, in Isaiah 25:6-8 the context is very earthly, referring to specific people in a mountain on earth, and those people are banqueting with "fat things" "marrow" and "wine". There is no rational basis to suggest a promise for infinite time and space from Isaiah 25:6-8. However, the next verses in Isaiah 25:9-12 are interpretive. The context is probably a limited time and place on earth, as we read
byum ("in that day") and then the prophet explains how Moab (a specific place on earth) and its fortresses are brought down to dust.
More specifically though, this shows that the Lord has complete power over death. He can swallow it up at His command, and send it forth at His command.
Third, the Hebrew word
nTsKh ("completely" or "continually") does not literally translate as 'all time'. Rather it means "fully/completely" or "continually" for the context specified – so if that context is limited (i.e., a day, a life, an age), so is the word (i.e., continues for a day, continues for a life, continues for an age). The word can only be read in context, which is why we find examples where the translation 'all time' for
nTsKh would be illogical: Jeremiah 50:39 (wild beasts live there, but not man from generation to generation;
nTsKh presented in the limited terms of man's generations). See also Psalm 9:5-6,
abdTh rShEa Shmm mKhyTh lEaulm uEad hauyb Thmu KhrbuTh lnTsKh uEarym nThShTh abd zkrm hmh ("You have destroyed the wicked. Their name you have put out to a world/age-during. The enemy, finished have been destructions completely. The cities you uprooted, perished has the memorial with them.") See also Psalm 49:9.
Incidentally, the word
nTsKh has multiple meanings too, as it often means "glory".
Note that this word is also used in Job quite a bit, but not in a doctrinal sense where it is used by Job's friends for purposes of speculation. See e.g., Job 4:20
mbqr lEarb ykThu mbly mShym lnTsKh yabdu ("From morning to evening they are destroyed outside any regarding completely they perish.")
Quote from: eaglesway on February 01, 2016, 06:43:47 PM
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."(Rev 5:13)
First, this praise in Revelation 5:13 is directed
to the Creator and the Messiah. It is not directed to humans. This verse does not support your theory that all humans have immortal souls for infinite time.
Second, the literal text does not translate "forever and ever", but rather
lEalm Ealmyn "age/word ages/worlds", and then it is followed immediately in Revelation 5:14 by one word from the four living beings, "amyn" ("perpetual" or "amen"). This literal detail helps show the
character by which these living creatures offer praise
to the Creator and the Messiah. We creatures are all rising and falling inside different ages and worlds at any given time and space, and we creatures speak only from what we know and what is given to us. It is not appropriate/honest for any living creature (any created being) to make statements beyond his or her dimensional capacity.
For students interested in further study here, note that the word "praise" here (
ThShbu) on the Crawford Codex) is from the root
Shb. This unique word can be found in the old testament (e.g., Genesis 46:34, Leviticus 8:35) to describe 'dwelling', 'sitting', or 'remaining'. As highlighted by Fabre d'Olivet in Hebraic Tongue Restored (pp.456-57), the word origin of
Shb is actually about 'returning home'. Here in Rev 5:13, the context would explain that Yahshua 'dwells' and/or 'returns home' to honor and dominion
lEalm Ealmyn ("to a world/age worlds/ages") so the expression here would confirm that the Messiah is "worlds/ages" older than this world, and that he lives beyond the horizon as well, to "worlds/ages". 'Beyond the horizon' is where He came from, and to where He is going.
There was nothing in my post that suggested in the slightest that anyone other than Messiah is Alpha and Omega.
The context was His exaltation, the subjection of every adversary, and the gathering together of all things into one in Christ, until God becomes all in all.
"behold I make all things new."
Really simple stuff. Straight up, the Lord never minces words.
"If I am lifted up from the earth i will draw all men unto me."
Those two verses are enough for me but there are 30 or more that all say the same thing in both the old testament and the new.
It seems you are only literal when it suits you, then you meander around with straw arguments about individual words, never addressing the larger body of verses i have presented in any substantial way.
Isaaih 33;14 the sinners in Zion are affrightened..who of us can dwell with continual burnings........quit being afrightened
He will seperate all men from sin........for He will appear unto us again..seperate from sin....
Regarding Mark 10:30, an interesting counterargument to my original post would be the text בעלמא דאתא ("in the age to come") is actually referring to the current age of Christianity on earth (i.e., 32AD through the present).
In other words, as you believe in Yahshua the Messiah right now, then חיא דעלמ ("life of the age/world") has come to you right now.
Mark 1:15, "The time is complete. The kingdom of אלהא has arrived. Repent and believe in the gospel."
Matthew 10:7, "And as you are going, preach and say 'The kingdom of heaven has come near."
This counterargument to my Mark 10:30 theory is a logical possibility, as the text of Mark 10:30 is talking about "houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields" – we tend to associate these things with our terrestrial experience here on the current earth rather than a future in heaven.
With that said, I also know from scripture that heaven & earth are mysteriously intertwined -- "...let Your kingdom come, and Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven...". So even in this alternate theory of Mark 10:30, the current Christian church age on earth would also be reflected in heaven. And it still emphasizes the greater point that we live from world/age to world/age.
I wonder quite literally, 'just what on earth is going on up there'?