Lake of THE fire

[willieH]

willieH: Hey T-tank... :hithere:

Thanks for your reply...  :grin:

willieH: Hi thinktank...   :happygrin:

In what way can the HEINOUS ACTS of HITLER (death by FIRE) be seen as UNLOVING and UNMERCIFUL, and the VERY SAME act (death by FIRE) done by GOD as LOVING and MERCIFUL?  :faint:  I call this, FORKED TONGUE... :blahgreen: :blah:  DOUBLETALK...  :sigh:

No offense, brother tt... but this post IS total fence sitting confusion, as to conclusionary TRUTH...

No offense taken, I don't allways post to establish doctrinal truth, but sometimes to chat and express my opinion, that ok with you?

You can post whatever you like brother... but when an "opinion" is supportive of fallacy, which might enter into another's consideration... then I take issue with that "opinion"... that ok with you?  :dontknow:

Furthermore, you INDIFFERENTLY state --- "I don't really care if UR happens to be true" --- because IN ANY EVENT of these 3 possibilities, you have CENTERED upon YOURSELF, and safely conclude yourSELF as SAVED from ET or ANNHILATION should they be that which actually unfolds... :rolleye: ...and of course if UR is "true" you are included as well... :rolleye:

You propose that though you "prefer to believe ANNHILATION" ...and that if indeed either ANNHILATION or UR happens,  ...that an ACT EQUIVALENT to HITLERS burning of the JEWS [annhilation] is "okay" with you!  That those poor JEWS must go through yet another BURNING DEATH!   :thumbdown:

Umm I find this to be a bit offensive and slightly manupilative perhaps, at what point did I state I want the Jews to be burned  :dontknow:

You noted you PREFER Annhilation... which is an APPROVAL of it... I didn't manipulate what you said, only asked you to consider the ramifications of it... for in YOUR own WORDS, ...You said:

I prefer Anhilation and I think is more just and loving of our creator but I don't really care if UR happens to be true, both are ok with me and are consistent with scriptures.

How can BURNING someone to death, EVER be considered as "LOVING"...  :mshock:

Moving on...

So my question to you is, ...in what way do you percieve that BURNING another human being to death BY FIRE, as "LOVING" toward that one?

In this MUCH LESS than "MERCIFUL" and INDIFFERENT thinking, ...you in fact remain a proponent of Law  oriented "eye for eye" ...JUSTICE, which in RECOMPENSE thinks a LOVING Creator shall END the LIVES which He is ABLE to SAVE -- which EMBRACES the ACTS of LAW which carried [law=eye for eye = ET/Annhilation/purgatory] REVENGE, are they which shall be engaged in the end, ...which can only be equated to an ANTI-GRACE / ANTI LIFE position...

No man can "pay" for even ONE SIN in any amount of time be it ONE SECOND or ETERNITY in a FIRE... ... so you pick "ANNHILATION" as the "MERCIFUL" option... thinking that it is MERCIFUL in some way that anyone be DESTROYED by FIRE?  How unrealistic it this?  If you were numbered amongst these, would FIRE be considered by YOU as a "MERCIFUL" end? :dunno:  

I agree Christ says don't take revenge, but yet also says that judgement is mine and judgment will take its place. If I were evil and preferred evil over good, just like Satan, then I probably would prefer annhilation to spending an eternity living a lie.

FIRST --- What makes you even consider that YHVH shall let ANYONE live a "lie" for eternity?  Even in the Garden, He stated that access to the TREE OF LIFE was denied those who entered SIN, for this VERY REASON!  So, there is NO WAY anyone can spend ETERNITY in a LIE for to do so would require EATING of the TREE of LIFE within the state of SIN, to gain an ETERNAL existence IN that STATE...

SECOND --- You only "prefer" annhilation, because it conveniently (under your present supposition) CANNOT be APPLIED to ...YOU... Stamping your approval of IT, when it or if it is APPLIED to anyone else --- BUT YOU...  :thumbdown:

:omg: Thinking from a position which does not come close to communicating having a realistic perspective of LITERAL FIRE!  :wacko2:  Have you ever even SLIGHTLY been burned, thinktank?   :dontknow:

Put your smallest finger over a small lit match for even 5 seconds... that might just give you a "tip of your finger" idea of the option of "ANNHILATION" you pick as "JUST and LOVING" by the "Creator"... :rolleye:

I know its painful, fire is a terribly painful, but it is a quick death compared to living a lie forever.

FIRST --- Again... "living a LIE (which is SINFUL and within a state of UNHOLINESS) cannot be done in the ETERNAL sense, for it was denied in the BEGINNING -- Gen 3:22 -- and is therefore not an OPTION in this realm... If you wish to KNOW the end, you must go back to the BEGINNING...

SECOND --- If you KNOW that FIRE is indeed VERY PAINFUL, how can you APPROVE of anyone PERISHING within it?  You thereby APPROVE maybe the most PAINFUL of deaths...

THIRD --- How do you know the perception of the duration of PAIN IN FIRE?  What makes you think even 1-thousandth of a SECOND, in FIRE... is "QUICK"?  And FIRE does not IMMEDIATELY --- within 1-thousandth of a SECOND --- remove LIFE!  Your APPROVAL of this as MERCIFUL is only based upon the supposition that YOU shall not have to bear this "end"... so it is therefore IRRELEVANT to you to observe another as enduring it.

Living forever in a place of righteousness might not be paradise for some people, i.e the wicked. If the wicked repent and choose to follow Christ then that is between them and God, you think I will be mad, I don't think I will mad, I will be glad that I am saved and glad for all people that are saved.

I do not suppose you to be GLAD that anyone shall be "annhilated"... I observe your INDIFFERENCE to those you percieve shall bear this SUPPOSED "end". 

Futhermore, the repentence of the "wicked" is the WORK of GOD -- Rom 2:4!

YOU did not "repent" because YOU decided to "repent"... You did so because you were DRAGGED by GOD to the WORD by GOD -- John 6:44 -- and the WORD revealed the Father to you -- Matt 11:27 -- which is the LEADING of GOD -- Rom 2:4 -- which prompted IN YOU, the BOWING of the knee... and the CONFESSING of the TONGUE -- Phil 2:10-11 --1 Cor 12:2 -- ALSO done by GOD, in YOU...

All YOU are is the beneficiary of HIS kind and IMPARTIAL WORK in you -- Acts 10:34 -- Prov 28:21 --- which notes that NO CREDIT whatsoever in this process, ...is due YOU! -- Eph 2:8-9
 

CHRIST plainly taught such UNFORGIVING or REVENGE oriented dealings with fellow men, was NO LONGER to be DONE, by His followers, ...to which YOU do not presently adhere:

"To which YOU do not presently adhere"
How do you know? have you set up secret cameras in my place and watch hard to see me fall?
I believe in mercy and what you said is not true, I don't recall saying I belive in ET, so stop treating me like one please.

FIRST --- You are NOT a believer in MERCY, until you [incorporating REASON] -- EXPLAIN how "MERCY", as well as "LOVE" is found within ANNHILATION which, according to YOUR WORDS, is YOUR PREFERENCE!

This is to allude that in GOD's "merciful" FIRE ANNHILATION of men, ...that also there was an element of MERCY within Hitler's FIRE ANNHILATION of the Jews!  :mshock:

The RIDICULOUS and totally UNREASONABLE proposal of ET is false, has not been mentioned as attached to you by me, so quit insinuating that I am treating you as a believer in ET...

I am addressing you and YOUR [annhilation] "PREFERENCE"... which you do not care for when it is examined in the LIGHT of YOU -- as APPLIED to IT...

If you believe that GOD shall have "MERCY" in YOUR case as avoiding (the fallacies of) FIRE TORTURE by GOD... and also believe Him to be IMPARTIAL to ALL MEN as is stated BY HIM in His WORD -- Acts 10:34 (and 9 other verses) -- Then how may you deduce HIS "MERCY and LOVE" to be within EXTREMELY PAINFUL -- ANNHILATION?  :mshock:

SECOND ---  As I have already stated... the PROCESS of GRACE and EMULATION of the PERFECTION of GOD as stated in -- Matt 5 --[see below] is found in FORGIVENESS, and LOVE, and PRAYER, and in the RESISTING of retaliation toward "ENEMIES"... which the belief and PREFERENCE of ANNHILATION does NOT align with... which is YOUR PREFERENCE for OTHERS, certainly NOT yourSELF.

Matt 5:38-39 --- Ye have "heard" [in the Levitical law - Lev 24:20] that it hath been said, AN EYE FOR AN EYE, and a TOOTH FOR A TOOTH --- but I say unto you, that ye RESIST NOT EVIL; but whosever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn unto him the other also...

Matt 5:43-45 --- Ye have "heard" [in the Psalms -- Psalm 41:10] that it hath been said, THOU SHALT LOVE thy NEIGHBOR and HATE THINE ENEMY --- but I say unto you LOVE YOUR ENEMIES... BLESS them that CURSE YOU, ...DO GOOD unto them that HATE YOU, and... PRAY for them that DESPITEFULLY USE YOU... that you may be CHILDREN of your Father which is in heaven...

Matt 5:48 --- be ye THEREFORE PERFECT, ...as your Father in heaven ...IS PERFECT!

This defines our FATHER GOD to be

(1)  LOVING, and,
(2)  BLESSING and GOOD unto those who are HIS ENEMIES that,
(3)  CURSE HIM, and that HATE HIM...  :dontknow:

A SAVIOR which is LOVE... is NEVER upon an agenda to TORMENT His BELOVED creatures for a moment or an eternity...

I agree in part, but what you said is not entirely true about God. Sorry to break your bubble but God can be mean sometimes, the same God you worship is the same God that Job worshipped and found himself being tormented by Satan by Gods permission. The same God also destroyed Nineveh, Sodom, the same God will also pour out a vial upon those who take the mark of the beast and torment them for 5-6 months. The same God also chatises you and me and every Christian for our misbehaviour.

You have hardly bursted any bubbles, brother T-tank...  :laughing7:

FIRST -- Ninevah was NOT destroyed by God... you should know that. In your rush to listen and speak instead, you stumble over your own words...  :sigh:

SECOND --- your belief in he myth of "satan" as a being, is your own affair... which I do not ascribe to... but percieve the ADVERSITY that it actually IS within men...

THIRD --- you speak of SYMBOLISM in LITERAL terms (mark of the beast, time periods etc), again... You are welcome to this common misstep, but I shall not comment upon it for it is amiss of the actual SPIRITUAL and SYMBOLIC (not LITERAL) intentions of the referenced texts. (i.e. expecting God to torment for a LITERAL period of 5-6 months, ...please)

FOURTH --- Aside from the absorbtion of SPIRITUAL infractions by men which were reconciled by the SUFFERINGS of INNOCENCE as accomplished by our Savior... which did NOT do evil...

ALL other MEN which DO participate in EVIL... must meet WHILE ALIVE, their own works within THIS REALM which is the LAKE of FIRE... And in which appear ALL MANNER of fleshly, finite sorrows --- to include: mental and spiritual anguish, losses, famine, poverty, disease, war, criminal injustices, and much, much more... These are the enaction of the PRINCIPLE of REAPING in the flesh, that which is SOWN to the flesh... 

The Apostle PAUL did a wonderful and dedicated work... but met BEATINGS, IMPRISONMENTS, STRIFES almost immeasureably hard, due to that which He had SOWN, prior to His CONVERSION to the work of GOD...  That he became of the most dedicated of men to the GOSPEL, did not evade the varying recompense forthcoming, of that which was EVIL, as done by him, while in the flesh.

This realm is full of the very things that happened to JOB within varying degrees, within ALL LIVES which are lived on the earth in the FLESH... GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS...  ALL participants which SOW in the flesh, and to the FLESH, shall REAP corruption IN THE FLESH...

IOW... No man is exempt from the PRINCIPLE of SOWING and REAPING... for there is reprimand found, within the course of doing of EVIL... which is DONE of the FLESH and is ...REAPED BY and IN THE FLESH -- Gal 6:7-8

I will conclude this post and finish in another... :Peace:

...willieH

[willieH]

Not that you will... but,

I do Hope that you (and anyone else reading along), shall take a moment in reflection of what I am about to say to you, ...  :cloud9:

Most BIBLE STUDENTS, view the LOF --- which (is a SYMBOLIC notation to begin with and) IS part of the REVEALING of the WORD of GOD [JESUS CHRIST] ...as a LITERAL entity, which finds its only reference within the SYMBOLIC book of REVELATION.  That somehow, the FIRE of GOD is not about BLESSING man but brings RECOMPENSE to him instead... 

This is an ANTI-GRACE, LAW oriented and foundationally, LAW based position...  For CHRIST plainly noted that we are to no longer take such a position with MEN, as I have already noted above, and the Apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, gave us a 2nd witness of this -- 2 Cor 5:16

If He required of us to do so deal with men, then He would be HYPOCRITICAL in enacting such FEARFUL things as HELL, ANNHILATION or BURNING in a LITERAL FIRE for whatever recompense might be "due"...  If He indeed tasted DEATH for all men... which He did... then LIFE IN Him is what awaits us, not TORMENT -- 1 Cor 15:22

The WORD of GOD is the MAKER of all things MADE -- John 1:3 -- and MAKES all things AS they ARE, whether those "things" in fact appear within this REALM as HONORABLE or DISHONORABLE -- Rom 9:20  Part of the PURPOSE of DISHONOR is to REVEAL what HONOR... IS... for without one, the other is left without a defining opposite.

This is WHY, God notes that HE RAISED Pharoah to do what he "did"... and WHY it GLORIFIED Him... for without a IMPRISONING entity [Pharoah/sin], how might the DELIVERER, ...deliver those whichwere/are IMPRISONED, ...from said bondage? 

The reality and PURPOSED existence of the IMPRISONING entity, is in fact PART of the GLORY of the DELIVERANCE... that EVIL shall NEVER in even ONE IOTA... continue to prevail over GOOD -- Rom 5:20 -- ANNHILATION and ET propose the opposite... that EVIL on a ETERNAL basis, prevailed over GOOD, and that SIN so prevailed over GRACE...  This is NOT a PERFECT result.  GOD has noted that DEATH and SORROW and PAIN shall pass away -- Rev 21:4 -- not CONTINUE...

If even ONE is left in PAIN, then PAIN continues to be,
If even ONE is in SORROW, then SORROW continues to be,
If even ONE is DEAD, then DEATH continues to be,

and  :crywipe: Rev 21:4 is found to be a FALSE WITNESS...

SIN imprisons us... and it GLORIFIES GOD to deliver us FROM IT... without the existence and reality of SIN, there is NO GLORY, and subsequently, even a necessity for DELIVERANCE which brings GLORY to Him...  :dontknow:

It is within the WORD (which is GOD), that we find ourselves as well as all other existent things ---> Acts 17:28 -- also within the WORD, ...IS the KNOWLEDGE (of Good and Evil) ---> Gen 3:22 -- And as well, the charcteristic of WORD which IS GOD, is also ...a CONSUMING FIRE -- Heb 12:29 -- which in the business and agenda of consuming EVIL, and thereby reveals HIS CHILDREN of HONOR -- Rom 9:23 -- Rom 8:20

THIS is a much MUCH... bigger deal than any of us can at this time, possibly imagine it to be...

We are the CHILDREN of the MOST HIGH GOD... in process of REVELATION (being revealed).  The 1st Son (which did not first appear in His GLORY) which is the FIRSTFRUIT of the CHILDREN, ...IS being REVEALED in US, which are also SONS... which is a MAJESTIC GLORY beyond any limited finite, ...IMAGINATION or perception...

In the REVEALING of the [living] KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... is the WORD "revealed"... as well as the LOF which IS the CONSUMING FIRE of the WORD... and that consuming portion of Itself which MAKES ALL things NEW and ALIVE (which is the RECONCILIATION by GOOD of) THAT which HAS become (due to envolvement with the revelation of EVIL and its knowledge) OLD and DEAD -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- John 14:6 -- 2 Cor 5:17

Most view the book of REVELATION as an account of the FUTURE, but the WORD is BOTH the ALPHA and OMEGA of ALL THINGS -- Rev 1:8 -- Rev 22:13 -- and as ALL THINGS are REVEALED (whether good or evil)... so is the WORD being REVEALED... By which ALL THINGS (whether good or evil) CONSIST -- Col 1:16-17

It is not by COINCIDENCE that the ALPHA and OMEGA are mentioned in the 1st and LAST portions of the book of Revelation...  For CHRIST is The FIRST (thing) ---> everything in between --> and the LAST (thing)... concerning this REALM and ALL things within it, that are MADE to appear IN IT...

Within THIS REALM is the LAKE of FIRE... which consumes all TEMPORAL acts of EVIL done within it, never to BE repeated again:

Nahum 1:9 -- what do ye imagine against YHVH?  HE will make an UTTER END... AFFLICTION [#H6869 = TSARAH = adversity] shall NOT RISE up the SECOND TIME.

The FIRE is found in anything which causes or experiences SORROW... for it is in the EXIT of the FIRE which also TRIED CHRIST -- Heb 2:10 -- Rev 3:18 -- and the entry of the JOY of the YHVH, that all LEAVE sorrow, as each LEAVES this realm -- Matt 25:21 -- The "talents" are GOOD, multiplied via the doings of GOOD within this REALM of EVIL... which shall survive this realm of FIRE, and ever ABIDE to GLORIFY GOD, in the eternal -- 1 Cor 3:11-15

ALL GLORY is due Him... NONE is due unto us... it is beneficially SHED upon us... For He is the GOD OF GLORY -- Psalm 29:3

...'ol   willieH  :cloud9:

Maybe, but like I said it doesn't bother me if what you say happens to be true. My faith is in God that he will do that which is right, whether that be Anhilation or UR, both give all people a chance to follow Jesus.  :cloud9:

There is no "CHANCE" whatsoever involved in the Salvation of GOD, nor is "CHANCE" even mentioned in the Scriptures concerning it...

Men do not and CANNOT come of themselves, and follow JESUS... Your lack of attentive study is showing:

John 6:44 --  NO man ...CAN... come to Me except the Father which hath sent Me, ...DRAW [drag in Greek] him, and I will raise him up at the last day...

What part of "NO MAN CAN"... which means "MAN CANNOT"... do you fail to comprehend?  :dontknow:

You shall have your own portion of "Lake of FIRE"  :flamebreath: ..."FIRE"... to deal with due to this INDIFFERENCE... which shall spiritually "annhilate" your support of the fallacy of ANNHILATION, and your accompanying indifference to others, before the conclusion of the last day...

ANNHILATION and its supporters are no more preaching truth than are those who testify ET -- to the WORLD that GOD SO [ETERNALLY] LOVES...

They just preach VENGENCE, in a shorter form... instead of the PEACE and forgiving GRACE, ...for which the GOSPEL is named -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15

And shall be named amongst this number which shall answer for said indifferent support of the EVIL portrayal of the GOD of GRACE and PEACE -- Matt 7:22-23 -- amongst which number you are presently named...  :sigh:

Btw... I will be interested in how you shall explain, GOD'S "RE-burning' [annhilation] of the JEWS is in what ways, more "LOVING" and "MERCIFUL", than was HITLER's ANNHILATION of them...  :rolleye:

...willieH  :happygrin:

[Taffy]

 Hi Bill :icon_flower:
HB on your 164  :icon_flower:   excuse the IOO..I kinda Like the Figurative .... :icon_flower: but it suits. :icon_flower:


:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

[thinktank]

willieH: Hey T-tank... :hithere:
Thanks for your reply...  :grin:
No offense, brother tt... but this post IS total fence sitting confusion, as to conclusionary TRUTH...

No offense taken, I don't allways post to establish doctrinal truth, but sometimes to chat and express my opinion, that ok with you?

You can post whatever you like brother... but when an "opinion" is supportive of fallacy, which might enter into another's consideration... then I take issue with that "opinion"... that ok with you?  :dontknow:
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Yes that's ok with me.
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Furthermore, you

You propose that though you "prefer to believe ANNHILATION" ...and that if indeed either ANNHILATION or UR happens,  ...that an ACT EQUIVALENT to HITLERS burning of the JEWS [annhilation] is "okay" with you!  That those poor JEWS must go through yet another BURNING DEATH!   :thumbdown:

Umm I find this to be a bit offensive and slightly manupilative perhaps, at what point did I state I want the Jews to be burned  :dontknow:

You noted you PREFER Annhilation... which is an APPROVAL of it... I didn't manipulate what you said, only asked you to consider the ramifications of it... for in YOUR own WORDS, ...You said:

I prefer Anhilation and I think is more just and loving of our creator but I don't really care if UR happens to be true, both are ok with me and are consistent with scriptures.

How can BURNING someone to death, EVER be considered as "LOVING"...  :mshock:

Moving on...
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I base it on 2 reasons. One is for the benifit of the righteous, in that Gods mercy will destroy their soul in hell in order to keep safe the righteous, children, women etc, in this life the innocent suffer under the hands of the ungodly, but in the age to come, the wicked will not have their way under Christs Iron rule picture in the book of Daniel. Second reason I call it loving is because under Christs Iron rule the wicked will not enjoy life, for they will be esteemed low among men, for christ came to overturn it so that the weak become strong and the strong become weak. Currently the strong still rule this Earth with craft, manipilations, greed, thievery etc but in Christs kingdom, they will be esteemed low. Some of these men would rather die, than live in this condition of humility, so rather than live for eternity in a condition they despise and hate, they would prefer to be destroyed. Hence that is the reasoning I am coming from.
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So my question to you is, ...in what way do you percieve that BURNING another human being to death BY FIRE, as "LOVING" toward that one?

FIRST --- What makes you even consider that YHVH shall let ANYONE live a "lie" for eternity?  Even in the Garden, He stated that access to the TREE OF LIFE was denied those who entered SIN, for this VERY REASON!  So, there is NO WAY anyone can spend ETERNITY in a LIE for to do so would require EATING of the TREE of LIFE within the state of SIN, to gain an ETERNAL existence IN that STATE...

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This is where I am coming from, you answered my question in part. God cannot tolerate sin under the new kingdom, so where will the ungodly appear? as Paul said.

John 8 22-24
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SECOND --- You only "prefer" annhilation, because it conveniently (under your present supposition) CANNOT be APPLIED to ...YOU... Stamping your approval of IT, when it or if it is APPLIED to anyone else --- BUT YOU...  :thumbdown:

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Anyone else but me, yes sure, as long as im safe, who cares about my familly, friends etc, sorry im being sarcastic, but I prefer annhilation because it keeps the innocent safe from evil men. I would rather see a hundred people be safe than to see an vicious murderer, be let loose because of, weakness, I mean love. In this age we have to tolerate evil men and even pray for them,because of their potential to be saved, but under Christs rule, evil will not be permitted, thank God. The average joe will accept Christ no doubt and perhaps even all men.
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:omg: Thinking from a position which does not come close to communicating having a realistic perspective of LITERAL FIRE!  :wacko2:  Have you ever even SLIGHTLY been burned, thinktank?   :dontknow:

Put your smallest finger over a small lit match for even 5 seconds... that might just give you a "tip of your finger" idea of the option of "ANNHILATION" you pick as "JUST and LOVING" by the "Creator"... :rolleye:

I know its painful, fire is a terribly painful, but it is a quick death compared to living a lie forever.

FIRST --- Again... "living a LIE (which is SINFUL and within a state of UNHOLINESS) cannot be done in the ETERNAL sense, for it was denied in the BEGINNING -- Gen 3:22 -- and is therefore not an OPTION in this realm... If you wish to KNOW the end, you must go back to the BEGINNING...

SECOND --- If you KNOW that FIRE is indeed VERY PAINFUL, how can you APPROVE of anyone PERISHING within it?  You thereby APPROVE maybe the most PAINFUL of deaths...
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This is what God says in his word, whether it be spiritual or physical, it will be painfull, you cannot escape that, even as a UR ist

John 3 , 19-20
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THIRD --- How do you know the perception of the duration of PAIN IN FIRE?  What makes you think even 1-thousandth of a SECOND, in FIRE... is "QUICK"?  And FIRE does not IMMEDIATELY --- within 1-thousandth of a SECOND --- remove LIFE!  Your APPROVAL of this as MERCIFUL is only based upon the supposition that YOU shall not have to bear this "end"... so it is therefore IRRELEVANT to you to observe another as enduring it.

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The people who are in the lake of fire and reject Jesus, would be the most ungoldy people on Earth. Most people on the Earth would prefer it if these people were tormented for much longer, hence ET in religions. But as for th duration of that fire I do not know, only God knows, it might not even be painfull at all, due to the speed of destruction. But this is assuming they will reject God, no one knows their decision except God, perhaps during the great white throne judgment nobody will be cast into the lake of fire.
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Living forever in a place of righteousness might not be paradise for some people, i.e the wicked. If the wicked repent and choose to follow Christ then that is between them and God, you think I will be mad, I don't think I will mad, I will be glad that I am saved and glad for all people that are saved.

I do not suppose you to be GLAD that anyone shall be "annhilated"... I observe your INDIFFERENCE to those you percieve shall bear this SUPPOSED "end". 

Futhermore, the repentence of the "wicked" is the WORK of GOD -- Rom 2:4!

YOU did not "repent" because YOU decided to "repent"... You did so because you were DRAGGED by GOD to the WORD by GOD -- John 6:44 -- and the WORD revealed the Father to you -- Matt 11:27 -- which is the LEADING of GOD -- Rom 2:4 -- which prompted IN YOU, the BOWING of the knee... and the CONFESSING of the TONGUE -- Phil 2:10-11 --1 Cor 12:2 -- ALSO done by GOD, in YOU...

All YOU are is the beneficiary of HIS kind and IMPARTIAL WORK in you -- Acts 10:34 -- Prov 28:21 --- which notes that NO CREDIT whatsoever in this process, ...is due YOU! -- Eph 2:8-9

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Mathew 5, 3 -13

so why does God give credit to these people? When you balance the scriptures to me it says that God is searching all men, but only those who have tender, willing hearts will hear him. Many are called but few are chosen. The people that God works with must surrender their lives to him, otherwise life is just a game that God is playing.
"hmm ok lets move this chess piece called Willie over here to 'saved' but im going to leave this chess piece called Sue in darkness for I don't care much for her at the moment.

John 3:16

plus commandments = will of God, yet man continues to sin, which means either Gods will is a bit slow or it  means that men have will to reject Gods spirit. If men reject God now, while God is sending the cleansing fire, then why will they accept him in the afterlife, if such a condition exists.
What im saying is that men reject God now for satan blinds men to the truth, which can be attributed to God because he allows satan to run to and fro, but yet during the 1000 millenium peace, God can now raise people from the dead in a world where there is no more denial of Christs existence,satan is chained , therefore the only people who will reject christ during the 1000 mill peace, if any, would be lovers of evil.
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CHRIST plainly taught such UNFORGIVING or REVENGE oriented dealings with fellow men, was NO LONGER to be DONE, by His followers, ...to which YOU do not presently adhere:

"To which YOU do not presently adhere"
How do you know? have you set up secret cameras in my place and watch hard to see me fall?
I believe in mercy and what you said is not true, I don't recall saying I belive in ET, so stop treating me like one please.

FIRST --- You are NOT a believer in MERCY, until you [incorporating REASON] -- EXPLAIN how "MERCY", as well as "LOVE" is found within ANNHILATION which, according to YOUR WORDS, is YOUR PREFERENCE!
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Im Not a beliver in mercy because you say so, but yet Christ my God says, that I should pray for my enemies in order to be accounted mercifull as Christ, did. Are you raising the bar higher than Christ?
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This is to allude that in GOD's "merciful" FIRE ANNHILATION of men, ...that also there was an element of MERCY within Hitler's FIRE ANNHILATION of the Jews!  :mshock:
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Hitler was a man that according to history books was a man of ambition and pride, which the father does not delight in. God deals with things according to his righteous judgment.

Romans 8,6
"      2, 5

Nahum 1, 2
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The RIDICULOUS and totally UNREASONABLE proposal of ET is false, has not been mentioned as attached to you by me, so quit insinuating that I am treating you as a believer in ET...
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Let me show you the previous post then and see what you think

Furthermore, you INDIFFERENTLY state --- "I don't really care if UR happens to be true" --- because IN ANY EVENT of these 3 possibilities, you have CENTERED upon YOURSELF, and safely conclude yourSELF as SAVED from ET or ANNHILATION should they be that which actually unfolds... Rolleye ...and of course if UR is "true" you are included as well... Rolleye


Again

which EMBRACES the ACTS of LAW which carried [law=eye for eye = ET/Annhilation/purgatory] REVENGE, are they which shall be engaged in the end, ...which can only be equated to an ANTI-GRACE / ANTI LIFE position.

And also here

No man can "pay" for even ONE SIN in any amount of time be it ONE SECOND or ETERNITY in a FIRE... ... so you pick "ANNHILATION" as the "MERCIFUL" option... thinking that it is MERCIFUL in some way that anyone be DESTROYED by FIRE?  How unrealistic it this?  If you were numbered amongst these, would FIRE be considered by YOU as a "MERCIFUL" end? dunno  

And again here

A SAVIOR which is LOVE... is NEVER upon an agenda to TORMENT His BELOVED creatures for a moment or an eternity...

Here also but I will let this one go because you mentioned all three and I perceive that you were just addressing each

If He required of us to do so deal with men, then He would be HYPOCRITICAL in enacting such FEARFUL things as HELL, ANNHILATION or BURNING in a LITERAL FIRE for whatever recompense might be "due"...  If He indeed tasted DEATH for all men... which He did... then LIFE IN Him is what awaits us, not TORMENT -- 1 Cor 15:22

four times even five if I count the last one, you mention ET when addressing my post, I hope now you understand why I perceived/thought that you insunated that I was an ET believer.
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I am addressing you and YOUR [annhilation] "PREFERENCE"... which you do not care for when it is examined in the LIGHT of YOU -- as APPLIED to IT...

If you believe that GOD shall have "MERCY" in YOUR case as avoiding (the fallacies of) FIRE TORTURE by GOD... and also believe Him to be IMPARTIAL to ALL MEN as is stated BY HIM in His WORD -- Acts 10:34 (and 9 other verses) -- Then how may you deduce HIS "MERCY and LOVE" to be within EXTREMELY PAINFUL -- ANNHILATION?  :mshock:

SECOND ---  As I have already stated... the PROCESS of GRACE and EMULATION of the PERFECTION of GOD as stated in -- Matt 5 --[see below] is found in FORGIVENESS, and LOVE, and PRAYER, and in the RESISTING of retaliation toward "ENEMIES"... which the belief and PREFERENCE of ANNHILATION does NOT align with... which is YOUR PREFERENCE for OTHERS, certainly NOT yourSELF.

A SAVIOR which is LOVE... is NEVER upon an agenda to TORMENT His BELOVED creatures for a moment or an eternity...

You have hardly bursted any bubbles, brother T-tank...  :laughing7:

FIRST -- Ninevah was NOT destroyed by God... you should know that. In your rush to listen and speak instead, you stumble over your own words...  :sigh:
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Nahum 2, 7 :mshock:
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SECOND --- your belief in he myth of "satan" as a being, is your own affair... which I do not ascribe to... but percieve the ADVERSITY that it actually IS within men...
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Ok that is your issue, keep in mind that Jesus talked about a prince of the air named the devil, I don't think he was trying to confuse us, unlike the devil who does try and confuse us and fools the world that he doesnt exist, so that when the false miracle workers appear, there will be no answer, except that they be of God.
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THIRD --- you speak of SYMBOLISM in LITERAL terms (mark of the beast, time periods etc), again... You are welcome to this common misstep, but I shall not comment upon it for it is amiss of the actual SPIRITUAL and SYMBOLIC (not LITERAL) intentions of the referenced texts. (i.e. expecting God to torment for a LITERAL period of 5-6 months, ...please)
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I'm not 100% sure about whether it is actually God that is tormenting, we are told about an angel that pours out a vial upon them that have the mark of the beast, I assume it is direct but I am continuing to study this.
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FOURTH --- Aside from the absorbtion of SPIRITUAL infractions by men which were reconciled by the SUFFERINGS of INNOCENCE as accomplished by our Savior... which did NOT do evil...

ALL other MEN which DO participate in EVIL... must meet WHILE ALIVE, their own works within THIS REALM which is the LAKE of FIRE... And in which appear ALL MANNER of fleshly, finite sorrows --- to include: mental and spiritual anguish, losses, famine, poverty, disease, war, criminal injustices, and much, much more... These are the enaction of the PRINCIPLE of REAPING in the flesh, that which is SOWN to the flesh... 
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I agree I think there is a fire happening now as spoken in malachi, but there will also be a fiery judgment, also spoken by malachi.
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The Apostle PAUL did a wonderful and dedicated work... but met BEATINGS, IMPRISONMENTS, STRIFES almost immeasureably hard, due to that which He had SOWN, prior to His CONVERSION to the work of GOD...  That he became of the most dedicated of men to the GOSPEL, did not evade the varying recompense forthcoming, of that which was EVIL, as done by him, while in the flesh.
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Good sentence I remember I also wrote something similar here on this forum.
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This realm is full of the very things that happened to JOB within varying degrees, within ALL LIVES which are lived on the earth in the FLESH... GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS...  ALL participants which SOW in the flesh, and to the FLESH, shall REAP corruption IN THE FLESH...

IOW... No man is exempt from the PRINCIPLE of SOWING and REAPING... for there is reprimand found, within the course of doing of EVIL... which is DONE of the FLESH and is ...REAPED BY and IN THE FLESH -- Gal 6:7-8
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So you see you we are not so different in your conclusions to me, you do believe that despite God being a God of love, that that love will not take away the reaping of the bad seed that we have sown.
I know where you are coming from and do not judge you for what you believe, but im a little concerned as to your hatred or zeal towards free will, is it the fire of God burning within or is it your own passion, only time will tell.
-----------------------------------------

I will conclude this post and finish in another... :Peace:

...willieH [/quote]

[willieH]

Hi Bill :icon_flower:
HB on your 164  :icon_flower:   excuse the IOO..I kinda Like the Figurative .... :icon_flower: but it suits. :icon_flower:


:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Thanks brud... how are you?

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :cloud9:

I'm gonna eliminate data that has already been addressed...  :heat:

Even so... this answer will be in TWO PARTS:

PART ONE:

How can BURNING someone to death, EVER be considered as "LOVING"...  :mshock:

I base it on 2 reasons. One is for the benifit of the righteous

sorry, there are NONE RIGHTEOUS -- Rom 3:10 -- Psalm 14:1-13  :dontknow:  You falsely assume that you, because you are saved, are somehow "righteous"... this could not be FARTHER from the TRUTH... Only HE which SAVES you is counted for "righteousness" on your behalf...

in that Gods mercy will destroy their soul in hell in order to keep safe the righteous,  children, women etc, in this life the innocent suffer under the hands of the ungodly, but in the age to come, the wicked will not have their way under Christs Iron rule picture in the book of Daniel.

Now you switch to HELL as opposed to "annhilation"... which is it?  A double minded man is UNSTABLE in all his ways -- James 1:8

More foul reasoning... Men, women and children are ALL SINNERS... and therefore WICKED of themselves as Scripture notes... Rom 3:23

Second reason I call it loving is because under Christs Iron rule the wicked will not enjoy life, for they will be esteemed low among men, for christ came to overturn it so that the weak become strong and the strong become weak. Currently the strong still rule this Earth with craft, manipilations, greed, thievery etc but in Christs kingdom, they will be esteemed low. Some of these men would rather die, than live in this condition of humility, so rather than live for eternity in a condition they despise and hate, they would prefer to be destroyed. Hence that is the reasoning I am coming from.

This is invalid thinking per Matt 5:44-48 ...as has already been quoted to you.

You have yet to point out WHAT PORTION of HELL or ANNHILATION indicates LOVE?  Or that EITHER of these AWFUL and HEINOUS presentations of GOD should be part of the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- not to mention the FEAR they propose which LOVE is in the business of CASTING OUT -- 1 John 4:18

So my question to you is, ...in what way do you percieve that BURNING another human being to death BY FIRE, as "LOVING" toward that one?

FIRST --- What makes you even consider that YHVH shall let ANYONE live a "lie" for eternity?  Even in the Garden, He stated that access to the TREE OF LIFE was denied those who entered SIN, for this VERY REASON!  So, there is NO WAY anyone can spend ETERNITY in a LIE for to do so would require EATING of the TREE of LIFE within the state of SIN, to gain an ETERNAL existence IN that STATE...

This is where I am coming from, you answered my question in part. God cannot tolerate sin under the new kingdom, so where will the ungodly appear? as Paul said.

John 8 22-24

FIRST --- The KINGDOM of GOD is present NOW and is WITHIN believers as CHRIST noted -- Luke 17:21 -- it is not a "NEW" Kingdom... it is the ETERNAL Kingdom...  There is no basis that GOD cannot "tolerate" SIN... please note to me the passage which states this.  GOD is UNCHANGING -- Mal 3:6 -- SIN is present in this realm for a REASON, do you know what that REASON is?

SECOND -- ALL are UNGODLY, T-tank, YOU INCLUDED! ...for that is the grouping for which CHRIST DIED -- Rom 5:6 -- WHILE we were YET SINNERS... not after we have entered into this fantasy kingdom of your imagination... where you percieve GOD cannot tolerate sin... GOD invented "SIN"... and the means by which it is -- (1) determined=the LAW -- 1 John 3:4 --  (2) entered into=disobedience which is UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- (3) that which leads to  DEATH by His DECREE -- Gen 3:19 -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 6:23

SECOND --- You only "prefer" annhilation, because it conveniently (under your present supposition) CANNOT be APPLIED to ...YOU... Stamping your approval of IT, when it or if it is APPLIED to anyone else --- BUT YOU...  :thumbdown:

Anyone else but me, yes sure, as long as im safe, who cares about my familly, friends etc, sorry im being sarcastic, but I prefer annhilation because it keeps the innocent safe from evil men. I would rather see a hundred people be safe than to see an vicious murderer, be let loose because of, weakness, I mean love. In this age we have to tolerate evil men and even pray for them,because of their potential to be saved, but under Christs rule, evil will not be permitted, thank God. The average joe will accept Christ no doubt and perhaps even all men.

You are quite self decieved into thinking somehow that (1) you are "righteous" and (2) that YOU do "good" -- both of which team to decieve you and DISAGREE with Scripture, as has already been noted -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- Rom 3:10-12 -- What part of "NONE righteous" do you fail to comprehend, T-tank?  :dontknow:  Or what part of "NONE doeth GOOD", escapes your understanding?

No offense, but this is the 3rd post to you, ...and it appears that I am likely talking to the wall... most who hold your beliefs (I speak on a couple NON-UR forums), ...ignore what is presented them, for REASON is not part of ET or ANNHILATION belief... rather you percieve as do most in Christianity, that the GOSPEL revolves around YOU... for in any scenario... YOU begin with YOURSELF as saved and proceed accordingly... irregardless of the doctrines of UR, ET or ANNHILATION... :rolleye:

Percieving that YOU "lucked out" where others do not... as if GOD's SALVATION is dependent upon FALLIBLE men to choose or reject... Did you have to ACCEPT THIS LIFE, before beginning to LIVE it, T-tank?   Or were you just MADE ALIVE by the WILL of YHVH GOD?  To think the VASTLY more important LIFE of the ETERNAL is set in our hands is the ultimate arrogant, and self centered deception...

This is what God says in his word, whether it be spiritual or physical, it will be painfull, you cannot escape that, even as a UR ist

John 3 , 19-20

The CONTENT of the message you bring [annhilation], is NOT the GOSPEL of PEACE... for what do the projections of TORTURE by FIRE and extreme PAIN from it, have to do with PEACE?  

What part of LOVE contains the projection of PAIN?  We live in a SINFUL world of PAIN, and when we have wearily reached our end to it (according to you), are to recieve MORE?  What PAIN did you go through in becoming a BELIEVER, T-tank?  What FIRE were YOU engulfed in?  How long were YOU in it?  

GOD is IMPARTIAL to ALL -- Acts 10:34 & 9 others -- so IN your DELIVERANCE by HIM was the FIRE, tolerable for YOU?  Or did YOU "deliver" yourself?  

How UNALIGNED with a MESSAGE which contains PEACE... and with LOVE which casts out FEAR is the content of this blab?  :laughing7:

THIRD --- How do you know the perception of the duration of PAIN IN FIRE?  What makes you think even 1-thousandth of a SECOND, in FIRE... is "QUICK"?  And FIRE does not IMMEDIATELY --- within 1-thousandth of a SECOND --- remove LIFE!  Your APPROVAL of this as MERCIFUL is only based upon the supposition that YOU shall not have to bear this "end"... so it is therefore IRRELEVANT to you to observe another as enduring it.

The people who are in the lake of fire and reject Jesus, would be the most ungoldy people on Earth. Most people on the Earth would prefer it if these people were tormented for much longer, hence ET in religions. But as for th duration of that fire I do not know, only God knows, it might not even be painfull at all, due to the speed of destruction. But this is assuming they will reject God, no one knows their decision except God, perhaps during the great white throne judgment nobody will be cast into the lake of fire.

They are already CAST into it...  :nod: It is not future, it IS, WAS, and WILL BE... NOW.

FIRST -- I have already listed SCRIPTURE which you have IGNORED... so more listing of it is pretty much, a waste of time... You have displayed that you shall remain in your place... and shall take your "righteousness" before Him along with these -- Matt 7:22-23

SECOND -- "Great white throne judgment" is NOW... just as JESUS noted:  John 12:31

Living forever in a place of righteousness might not be paradise for some people, i.e the wicked. If the wicked repent and choose to follow Christ then that is between them and God, you think I will be mad, I don't think I will mad, I will be glad that I am saved and glad for all people that are saved.

I do not suppose you to be GLAD that anyone shall be "annhilated"... I observe your INDIFFERENCE to those you percieve shall bear this SUPPOSED "end".  

Futhermore, the repentence of the "wicked" is the WORK of GOD -- Rom 2:4!

YOU did not "repent" because YOU decided to "repent"... You did so because you were DRAGGED by GOD to the WORD by GOD -- John 6:44 -- and the WORD revealed the Father to you -- Matt 11:27 -- which is the LEADING of GOD -- Rom 2:4 -- which prompted IN YOU, the BOWING of the knee... and the CONFESSING of the TONGUE -- Phil 2:10-11 --1 Cor 12:2 -- ALSO done by GOD, in YOU...

All YOU are is the beneficiary of HIS kind and IMPARTIAL WORK in you -- Acts 10:34 -- Prov 28:21 --- which notes that NO CREDIT whatsoever in this process, ...is due YOU! -- Eph 2:8-9

Mathew 5, 3 -13

so why does God give credit to these people? When you balance the scriptures to me it says that God is searching all men, but only those who have tender, willing hearts will hear him. Many are called but few are chosen. The people that God works with must surrender their lives to him, otherwise life is just a game that God is playing.
"hmm ok lets move this chess piece called Willie over here to 'saved' but im going to leave this chess piece called Sue in darkness for I don't care much for her at the moment.

Where is credit given to these?  It is the WORK of GOD in these, that tempers them -- for the HEARTS of MEN are WICKED and DECIETFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS -- Jer 17:9

MANY shall come in the name of CHRIST and DECIEVE MANY -- Matt 24:5 -- with such BLASPHEMIES which are CONTRARY to PEACE and LOVE, for which the GOSPEL is named... Bringing FEAR, and its TORMENT, which has no part in LOVE... in the stead of REASON, which any which KNOW LOVE even in the slightest, has the SENSE to see that LOVE NEVER torments the OBJECT that is LOVED... rather SEEKS its safety and protection...

In your belief you refute that GRACE MUCH MORE abounded wherever and to whatever degree SIN ABOUNDED -- Rom 5:20 -- Instead, you give victory to SIN instead of LOVE and GRACE...

You make CHRIST a FAILURE in the mission to SAVE the WORLD that GOD so LOVED... I cannot even go to the place which shall avail SHAME to the degree Christianity shall face... one day -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Rev 3:18 -- as they present their INIQUITOUS and UNREASONABLE blasphemies before Him in the name of CHRIST as works of "wonderous works" and "prophetic doings"...

John 3:16

plus commandments = will of God, yet man continues to sin, which means either Gods will is a bit slow or it  means that men have will to reject Gods spirit. If men reject God now, while God is sending the cleansing fire, then why will they accept him in the afterlife, if such a condition exists.

More UNBIBLICAL hoo-ha... "AFTERLIFE" is an UNBIBLICAL term... and belief... MEN are RETURNING to where they BEGAN -- Luke 15:11-32

What im saying is that men reject God now for satan blinds men to the truth, which can be attributed to God because he allows satan to run to and fro, but yet during the 1000 millenium peace, God can now raise people from the dead in a world where there is no more denial of Christs existence,satan is chained , therefore the only people who will reject christ during the 1000 mill peace, if any, would be lovers of evil.[/color]

Again... posting REASON and Scripture shall not change you, for you purpose to IGNORE it... It does not matter to me what fallacies you believe... just the distortions you present to others...

"MILLENIUM" is yet more UNBIBLICAL terminology found within the fallacies of "talebearers"...  which believe the REVELATION of the CHRIST which is the WORD, as LITERAL... and falsely mislead others in FEARING the REVELATION of the WORD instead of bringing the GOOD NEWS of it which is the GOSPEL!!!

Where it names itself SYMBOLIC -- Rev 1:1 -- and the APOSTASY inserts the WORDS of MEN, changing the SPIRITUAL into LITERAL interpretations...

Men reject CHRIST for, OF THEMSELVES, ...they cannot do otherwise -- John 6:44 -- Matt 11:27 -- 1 Cor 12:2

Did you ALWAYS believe, T-tank?  If you say YES, Scripture calls you a LIAR (which is a qualifying characteristic of those who traverse the LAKE of FIRE -- Rom 11:32 -- Rev 21:8

Or did you experience UNBELIEF at one time or another for a given period?  If you say NO, then -- Rom 11:32 -- incriminates you as well...  :sigh:

End of PART ONE

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :cloud9:

PART TWO:

CHRIST plainly taught such UNFORGIVING or REVENGE oriented dealings with fellow men, was NO LONGER to be DONE, by His followers, ...to which YOU do not presently adhere:

"To which YOU do not presently adhere"
How do you know? have you set up secret cameras in my place and watch hard to see me fall?
I believe in mercy and what you said is not true, I don't recall saying I belive in ET, so stop treating me like one please.

FIRST --- You are NOT a believer in MERCY, until you [incorporating REASON] -- EXPLAIN how "MERCY", as well as "LOVE" is found within ANNHILATION which, according to YOUR WORDS, is YOUR PREFERENCE!

Im Not a beliver in mercy because you say so, but yet Christ my God says, that I should pray for my enemies in order to be accounted mercifull as Christ, did. Are you raising the bar higher than Christ?

Why did you not explain what part of LOVE and MERCY are found in ANNHILATION?  Which is MURDER!  You teach GOD shall MURDER His creatures, which are SO LOVED by Him!  :mshock:

No it is you which have embraced distortions, thinking yourself to be "righteous"... You do not "forgive or pray for enemies"... you submit to CHRIST within HIS FORGIVENESS of them... or do you do this? -- Gal 2:20 -- which is it, T-tank?  :dontknow:

This is to allude that in GOD's "merciful" FIRE ANNHILATION of men, ...that also there was an element of MERCY within Hitler's FIRE ANNHILATION of the Jews!  :mshock:

Hitler was a man that according to history books was a man of ambition and pride, which the father does not delight in. God deals with things according to his righteous judgment.

You try to EXCUSE GOD (from a murderous slander which you attach to him)... by saying that it is OKAY for Him to murder in such a way AS HOLY, ...but a man doing the very same thing is EVIL?  How much more of a double standard is within your beliefs, T-tank? :dunno:

ALL MEN are men of ambition and pride... If GOD is so dealing with HITLER for killing SINFULLY by FIRE -- is "righteous judgment", then YOU must have received this same judgment in order to be justified... for all the "bones" of evil doing, that you are dragging behind you!

God is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS... you and Hitler are both LUMPS of dirt... which GOD has given life to... and of which GOD KNEW every detail you would do or not do within that life... yet brought you BOTH forth anyway...

You did not successfully answer me... In what WAY is MERCY, contained in a FIRE of ANNHILATION? 

Whether GOD is doing it for "this reason" (holiness), and Hitler is doing it for "that reason" (sinful ambition)... it still remains WHAT IT IS... which is MURDER.

And MERCY, in both cases, is not part of WHAT IT IS... which is totally UNMERCIFUL, regardless of the decision made by the one "burning" TO BURN and MURDER!

JUDGMENT when it is JUST... it is still MERCIFUL... This is why we do not take a murderer and sentence him to death by "dripping 1 drop of acid upon his body at a time, till his flesh is melted away"... or by pushing him into an OVEN or PIT of FIRE, toasting him to the bone"...

For to do such things are HEINOUS beyond the murder committed by him... In the end... in doing such a thing, ...the JUDGE becomes more HEINOUS than the CRIMINAL... and the observers which lavish in it and APPLAUD it, even worse... think about it.

The RIDICULOUS and totally UNREASONABLE proposal of ET is false, has not been mentioned as attached to you by me, so quit insinuating that I am treating you as a believer in ET...

Let me show you the previous post then and see what you think

Furthermore, you INDIFFERENTLY state --- "I don't really care if UR happens to be true" --- because IN ANY EVENT of these 3 possibilities, you have CENTERED upon YOURSELF, and safely conclude yourSELF as SAVED from ET or ANNHILATION should they be that which actually unfolds... :rolleye: ...and of course if UR is "true" you are included as well...  :wacko2:

Again

which EMBRACES the ACTS of LAW which carried [law=eye for eye = ET/Annhilation/purgatory] REVENGE, are they which shall be engaged in the end, ...which can only be equated to an ANTI-GRACE / ANTI LIFE position.

And also here

No man can "pay" for even ONE SIN in any amount of time be it ONE SECOND or ETERNITY in a FIRE... ... so you pick "ANNHILATION" as the "MERCIFUL" option... thinking that it is MERCIFUL in some way that anyone be DESTROYED by FIRE?  How unrealistic it this?  If you were numbered amongst these, would FIRE be considered by YOU as a "MERCIFUL" end? :dunno:  

And again here

A SAVIOR which is LOVE... is NEVER upon an agenda to TORMENT His BELOVED creatures for a moment or an eternity...

Here also but I will let this one go because you mentioned all three and I perceive that you were just addressing each

If He required of us to do so deal with men, then He would be HYPOCRITICAL in enacting such FEARFUL things as HELL, ANNHILATION or BURNING in a LITERAL FIRE for whatever recompense might be "due"...  If He indeed tasted DEATH for all men... which He did... then LIFE IN Him is what awaits us, not TORMENT -- 1 Cor 15:22

four times even five if I count the last one, you mention ET when addressing my post, I hope now you understand why I perceived/thought that you insunated that I was an ET believer.

Not once did I indicate you believe ET... I noted all 3 potential ends... 2 of which you say, are OKAY with you... one of which you "APPROVE" of, is STILL UNMERCIFUL...

ET is just a longer version of ANNHILATION... neither contain MERCY... neither contain REASON... neither contain PEACE... neither contain LOVE... neither contain... THE fulfillment of -- Rev 21:4 -- which says that PAIN, SORROW are passed away (which does not work for ET - for PAIN and SORROW is found in the proposal of HELL... if any PAIN & SORROW continues, then both still exist), and also includes DEATH is passed away (which does not work for ANNHILATION - for DEATH is found in the proposal of ANNHILATION. If ANY remain DEAD... then THEIR DEATHS still exists)


I am addressing you and YOUR [annhilation] "PREFERENCE"... which you do not care for when it is examined in the LIGHT of YOU -- as APPLIED to IT...

If you believe that GOD shall have "MERCY" in YOUR case as avoiding (the fallacies of) FIRE TORTURE by GOD... and also believe Him to be IMPARTIAL to ALL MEN as is stated BY HIM in His WORD -- Acts 10:34 (and 9 other verses) -- Then how may you deduce HIS "MERCY and LOVE" to be within EXTREMELY PAINFUL -- ANNHILATION?  :mshock:

SECOND ---  As I have already stated... the PROCESS of GRACE and EMULATION of the PERFECTION of GOD as stated in -- Matt 5 --[see below] is found in FORGIVENESS, and LOVE, and PRAYER, and in the RESISTING of retaliation toward "ENEMIES"... which the belief and PREFERENCE of ANNHILATION does NOT align with... which is YOUR PREFERENCE for OTHERS, certainly NOT yourSELF.

This realm is full of the very things that happened to JOB within varying degrees, within ALL LIVES which are lived on the earth in the FLESH... GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS...  ALL participants which SOW in the flesh, and to the FLESH, shall REAP corruption IN THE FLESH...

IOW... No man is exempt from the PRINCIPLE of SOWING and REAPING... for there is reprimand found, within the course of doing of EVIL... which is DONE of the FLESH and is ...REAPED BY and IN THE FLESH -- Gal 6:7-8

So you see you we are not so different in your conclusions to me, you do believe that despite God being a God of love, that that love will not take away the reaping of the bad seed that we have sown.

I believe we have VERY different vision of the principle of SOWING and REAPING... I think your understanding of its purpose must be identified by you first... So I shall ask you this question (and please make your answer an entirely separate one from the rest of this dialogue -- thanks):

What is GOD's PURPOSE in creating the EARTH and this entire scenario in which we find ourselves?

I believe your answer (should you decide to answer, if you think you know) shall display that our view of this PRINCIPLE [SOWING/REAPING] has an entirely different place in your view, than it does in mine...  :2c:

I know where you are coming from and do not judge you for what you believe, but im a little concerned as to your hatred or zeal towards free will, is it the fire of God burning within or is it your own passion, only time will tell.

FREE WILL is yet another UNBIBLICAL term and is also a false theological premise... which seem to often, "pop up" in your attempt to substanciate your beliefs...

Don't be concerned brother... I have held the hand of YHVH for 34 years... and He does not judge me for knowledge I do not have... He judges me for knowledge I could have had but

(1) didnt bother to research

(2) that was presented to me and rejected, and

(3) taught others that which does not align with REASON...

For it is HIS instruction that we align ourselves with REASON within our FOUNDATIONAL dealings with HIM first -- Isiaiah 1:18 -- that we might teach others of the SPIRITUAL content of WORD, that which is in LINE with REASON... not just RELIGIOUS perception...

Btw... FYI ...I spent 20 years in an ET believing church - The Salvation Army... during which I questioned ET, until I finally left due to the him-haw they gave me...  I also spent 5 years in the SDA church which holds YOUR belief of ANNHILATION... and their pastoral administers hoo-haa'd & him-haw'd as well when confronted by me... wearying me with their own abbreviated  but just as DEMENTED brand of FIRE FEAR instead of the GOSPEL of LOVE and PEACE...

During this course... I have found no church in Christianity in which I can comfortably give ear, as they are so embedded in TRADITION, that TRUTH shall not penetrate their establishments...

I therefore remain... finding fellowship on such wonderful sites as tentmaker... Which has individuals which actually BELIEVE the TRUTH of the WORD...   :bgdance:

...willieH

[shawn]

willieH: Hi Shawn... :hithere:

Just a thought.  When you read and have a fuller understanding of scriptures I believe there is stronger evidence for Anhiliation or UR.  With that said, is it possible both view points are right?  Is it even possible that all three are correct (ET, UR, AHN)?  Finite beings love to think in terms of either/or...but I think it's entirely possible that judgement is a mixture.  Could people be placed in Gehenna for purification and still reject?  That would seem to line up more with free will.

No offense new brother...

(1)  "Free will" is an unBiblical issue (not mentioned in it)... and,

(2)  one which is not to be debated on this forum, so it does not need to be "aligned" with issues which ARE Biblical that can be debated on this forum...

So as we discuss the matters of the WORD, we must be able to discuss and prove our views without using disallowed premises in that presentation...  :winkgrin:

...'ol willieH  :cloud9:

So, are you of the Zenderlike mindset that there is no such thing as free will?  We are merely puppets on a string?  There is no way I believe that.  I don't believe we are a chess set and God manipulates all the pieces.  I do believe in predestination and believe we have a certain amount of free will within the boundries God sets.

[shawn]

TT...I wholeheartedly agree with...

I agree in part, but what you said is not entirely true about God. Sorry to break your bubble but God can be mean sometimes, the same God you worship is the same God that Job worshipped and found himself being tormented by Satan by Gods permission. The same God also destroyed Nineveh, Sodom, the same God will also pour out a vial upon those who take the mark of the beast and torment them for 5-6 months. The same God also chatises you and me and every Christian for our misbehaviour.

Well...except for the "mean" part.  I prefer to call it just.  And I believe the story of Job to be a parable.  This is part of the issue I have with UR.  Some within the UR realm have become as dogmatic in their beliefs as the ET guys.  God not only loves agape but he is just and holy.  He is not a big teddy bear in the sky.  To put God on trial for being just and holy with our limited insight is shortsighted at best.  To assume that we are merely chess pieces with no free will directed by God makes no sense to me.  If so...why are we partially judged by our works?  Would not God be judging himself?  It would make sin merely an teaching instrument and God forcing our hand to sin.  I don't buy any of that.

[jabcat]

Hi Shawn.  I think your explanation of your beliefs are good, and I'll quickly interject here and ask that Willi give a quick reply (if you want to Bro W) but otherwise I'll highlight the "no debate/minimal direct discussion" guideline of the "FW"/Sov issue on TM (as Willi noted in #2).

There are many ways to discuss our beliefs of God's working within ours and mankinds' lives, using the scriptures and personal experiences, etc., without focusing on the hot-button, argument-inducing terms.  

If anyone does have a need to have a detailed, ongoing, direct discussion of the terminology, please go to PM.  Thanks,  :thumbsup:

[shawn]

Not that you will... but,

I do Hope that you (and anyone else reading along), shall take a moment in reflection of what I am about to say to you, ...  :cloud9:

Most BIBLE STUDENTS, view the LOF --- which (is a SYMBOLIC notation to begin with and) IS part of the REVEALING of the WORD of GOD [JESUS CHRIST] ...as a LITERAL entity, which finds its only reference within the SYMBOLIC book of REVELATION.  That somehow, the FIRE of GOD is not about BLESSING man but brings RECOMPENSE to him instead... 

This is an ANTI-GRACE, LAW oriented and foundationally, LAW based position...  For CHRIST plainly noted that we are to no longer take such a position with MEN, as I have already noted above, and the Apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, gave us a 2nd witness of this -- 2 Cor 5:16

If He required of us to do so deal with men, then He would be HYPOCRITICAL in enacting such FEARFUL things as HELL, ANNHILATION or BURNING in a LITERAL FIRE for whatever recompense might be "due"...  If He indeed tasted DEATH for all men... which He did... then LIFE IN Him is what awaits us, not TORMENT -- 1 Cor 15:22

The WORD of GOD is the MAKER of all things MADE -- John 1:3 -- and MAKES all things AS they ARE, whether those "things" in fact appear within this REALM as HONORABLE or DISHONORABLE -- Rom 9:20  Part of the PURPOSE of DISHONOR is to REVEAL what HONOR... IS... for without one, the other is left without a defining opposite.

This is WHY, God notes that HE RAISED Pharoah to do what he "did"... and WHY it GLORIFIED Him... for without a IMPRISONING entity [Pharoah/sin], how might the DELIVERER, ...deliver those whichwere/are IMPRISONED, ...from said bondage? 

The reality and PURPOSED existence of the IMPRISONING entity, is in fact PART of the GLORY of the DELIVERANCE... that EVIL shall NEVER in even ONE IOTA... continue to prevail over GOOD -- Rom 5:20 -- ANNHILATION and ET propose the opposite... that EVIL on a ETERNAL basis, prevailed over GOOD, and that SIN so prevailed over GRACE...  This is NOT a PERFECT result.  GOD has noted that DEATH and SORROW and PAIN shall pass away -- Rev 21:4 -- not CONTINUE...

If even ONE is left in PAIN, then PAIN continues to be,
If even ONE is in SORROW, then SORROW continues to be,
If even ONE is DEAD, then DEATH continues to be,

and  :crywipe: Rev 21:4 is found to be a FALSE WITNESS...

SIN imprisons us... and it GLORIFIES GOD to deliver us FROM IT... without the existence and reality of SIN, there is NO GLORY, and subsequently, even a necessity for DELIVERANCE which brings GLORY to Him...  :dontknow:

It is within the WORD (which is GOD), that we find ourselves as well as all other existent things ---> Acts 17:28 -- also within the WORD, ...IS the KNOWLEDGE (of Good and Evil) ---> Gen 3:22 -- And as well, the charcteristic of WORD which IS GOD, is also ...a CONSUMING FIRE -- Heb 12:29 -- which in the business and agenda of consuming EVIL, and thereby reveals HIS CHILDREN of HONOR -- Rom 9:23 -- Rom 8:20

THIS is a much MUCH... bigger deal than any of us can at this time, possibly imagine it to be...

We are the CHILDREN of the MOST HIGH GOD... in process of REVELATION (being revealed).  The 1st Son (which did not first appear in His GLORY) which is the FIRSTFRUIT of the CHILDREN, ...IS being REVEALED in US, which are also SONS... which is a MAJESTIC GLORY beyond any limited finite, ...IMAGINATION or perception...

In the REVEALING of the [living] KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... is the WORD "revealed"... as well as the LOF which IS the CONSUMING FIRE of the WORD... and that consuming portion of Itself which MAKES ALL things NEW and ALIVE (which is the RECONCILIATION by GOOD of) THAT which HAS become (due to envolvement with the revelation of EVIL and its knowledge) OLD and DEAD -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- John 14:6 -- 2 Cor 5:17

Most view the book of REVELATION as an account of the FUTURE, but the WORD is BOTH the ALPHA and OMEGA of ALL THINGS -- Rev 1:8 -- Rev 22:13 -- and as ALL THINGS are REVEALED (whether good or evil)... so is the WORD being REVEALED... By which ALL THINGS (whether good or evil) CONSIST -- Col 1:16-17

It is not by COINCIDENCE that the ALPHA and OMEGA are mentioned in the 1st and LAST portions of the book of Revelation...  For CHRIST is The FIRST (thing) ---> everything in between --> and the LAST (thing)... concerning this REALM and ALL things within it, that are MADE to appear IN IT...

Within THIS REALM is the LAKE of FIRE... which consumes all TEMPORAL acts of EVIL done within it, never to BE repeated again:

Nahum 1:9 -- what do ye imagine against YHVH?  HE will make an UTTER END... AFFLICTION [#H6869 = TSARAH = adversity] shall NOT RISE up the SECOND TIME.

The FIRE is found in anything which causes or experiences SORROW... for it is in the EXIT of the FIRE which also TRIED CHRIST -- Heb 2:10 -- Rev 3:18 -- and the entry of the JOY of the YHVH, that all LEAVE sorrow, as each LEAVES this realm -- Matt 25:21 -- The "talents" are GOOD, multiplied via the doings of GOOD within this REALM of EVIL... which shall survive this realm of FIRE, and ever ABIDE to GLORIFY GOD, in the eternal -- 1 Cor 3:11-15

ALL GLORY is due Him... NONE is due unto us... it is beneficially SHED upon us... For He is the GOD OF GLORY -- Psalm 29:3

...'ol   willieH  :cloud9:

Maybe, but like I said it doesn't bother me if what you say happens to be true. My faith is in God that he will do that which is right, whether that be Anhilation or UR, both give all people a chance to follow Jesus.  :cloud9:

There is no "CHANCE" whatsoever involved in the Salvation of GOD, nor is "CHANCE" even mentioned in the Scriptures concerning it...

Men do not and CANNOT come of themselves, and follow JESUS... Your lack of attentive study is showing:

John 6:44 --  NO man ...CAN... come to Me except the Father which hath sent Me, ...DRAW [drag in Greek] him, and I will raise him up at the last day...

What part of "NO MAN CAN"... which means "MAN CANNOT"... do you fail to comprehend?  :dontknow:

You shall have your own portion of "Lake of FIRE"  :flamebreath: ..."FIRE"... to deal with due to this INDIFFERENCE... which shall spiritually "annhilate" your support of the fallacy of ANNHILATION, and your accompanying indifference to others, before the conclusion of the last day...

ANNHILATION and its supporters are no more preaching truth than are those who testify ET -- to the WORLD that GOD SO [ETERNALLY] LOVES...

They just preach VENGENCE, in a shorter form... instead of the PEACE and forgiving GRACE, ...for which the GOSPEL is named -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15

And shall be named amongst this number which shall answer for said indifferent support of the EVIL portrayal of the GOD of GRACE and PEACE -- Matt 7:22-23 -- amongst which number you are presently named...  :sigh:

Btw... I will be interested in how you shall explain, GOD'S "RE-burning' [annhilation] of the JEWS is in what ways, more "LOVING" and "MERCIFUL", than was HITLER's ANNHILATION of them...  :rolleye:

...willieH  :happygrin:

Willie you sound alot like the members I left at the other board...just on the opposite end of the spectrum.  How do you know God will judge those by "fire" because they believe in something different than yourself?  I find your tone offensive and out of line with the nature of this board.  Condemning people to Gehenna isn't your job.  No matter how strongly you believe in a stance there is zero need to go there.  I hope this board doesn't condemn this type of discourse.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think what Willie is trying to say, is that WHATEVER is left of us that is not like Father and Son, will be consumed by His fire. God is a consuming fire.

It's not Gehenna/hell, but the fire of burning up impurities just like the mercy seat was purified 7 times to remove all impurities and dross. Gold speaks of the higher nature, which is God.

In a board discussion, I have noticed that sometimes the logical thing to say is "you will this or that, if you this or that", and it's not intended to be personally directed at any one individual including who you are talking to, but rather in a general sense of what happens to ALL. Hope this helps.....Blessings...

PS. There is a sticky thread on here where we discussed pro and con of a sovereign God that you can read. It became such a food fight that it had to be closed and remain a sticky only.

[thinktank]

Gold speaks of the higher nature, which is God.

I never figured you as a lover of gold cardinal :laughing7:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :grin:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Shawn... :hithere:

I am leaving the quotes below, to comment upon your answer --- as your answer was directed toward these quotes...  :happygrin:

Not that you will... but,

I do Hope that you (and anyone else reading along), shall take a moment in reflection of what I am about to say to you, ...  :cloud9:

Most BIBLE STUDENTS, view the LOF --- which (is a SYMBOLIC notation to begin with and) IS part of the REVEALING of the WORD of GOD [JESUS CHRIST] ...as a LITERAL entity, which finds its only reference within the SYMBOLIC book of REVELATION.  That somehow, the FIRE of GOD is not about BLESSING man but brings RECOMPENSE to him instead... 

This is an ANTI-GRACE, LAW oriented and foundationally, LAW based position...  For CHRIST plainly noted that we are to no longer take such a position with MEN, as I have already noted above, and the Apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, gave us a 2nd witness of this -- 2 Cor 5:16

If He required of us to do so deal with men, then He would be HYPOCRITICAL in enacting such FEARFUL things as HELL, ANNHILATION or BURNING in a LITERAL FIRE for whatever recompense might be "due"...  If He indeed tasted DEATH for all men... which He did... then LIFE IN Him is what awaits us, not TORMENT -- 1 Cor 15:22

The WORD of GOD is the MAKER of all things MADE -- John 1:3 -- and MAKES all things AS they ARE, whether those "things" in fact appear within this REALM as HONORABLE or DISHONORABLE -- Rom 9:20  Part of the PURPOSE of DISHONOR is to REVEAL what HONOR... IS... for without one, the other is left without a defining opposite.

This is WHY, God notes that HE RAISED Pharoah to do what he "did"... and WHY it GLORIFIED Him... for without a IMPRISONING entity [Pharoah/sin], how might the DELIVERER, ...deliver those whichwere/are IMPRISONED, ...from said bondage? 

The reality and PURPOSED existence of the IMPRISONING entity, is in fact PART of the GLORY of the DELIVERANCE... that EVIL shall NEVER in even ONE IOTA... continue to prevail over GOOD -- Rom 5:20 -- ANNHILATION and ET propose the opposite... that EVIL on a ETERNAL basis, prevailed over GOOD, and that SIN so prevailed over GRACE...  This is NOT a PERFECT result.  GOD has noted that DEATH and SORROW and PAIN shall pass away -- Rev 21:4 -- not CONTINUE...

If even ONE is left in PAIN, then PAIN continues to be,
If even ONE is in SORROW, then SORROW continues to be,
If even ONE is DEAD, then DEATH continues to be,

and  :crywipe: Rev 21:4 is found to be a FALSE WITNESS...

SIN imprisons us... and it GLORIFIES GOD to deliver us FROM IT... without the existence and reality of SIN, there is NO GLORY, and subsequently, even a necessity for DELIVERANCE which brings GLORY to Him...  :dontknow:

It is within the WORD (which is GOD), that we find ourselves as well as all other existent things ---> Acts 17:28 -- also within the WORD, ...IS the KNOWLEDGE (of Good and Evil) ---> Gen 3:22 -- And as well, the charcteristic of WORD which IS GOD, is also ...a CONSUMING FIRE -- Heb 12:29 -- which in the business and agenda of consuming EVIL, and thereby reveals HIS CHILDREN of HONOR -- Rom 9:23 -- Rom 8:20

THIS is a much MUCH... bigger deal than any of us can at this time, possibly imagine it to be...

We are the CHILDREN of the MOST HIGH GOD... in process of REVELATION (being revealed).  The 1st Son (which did not first appear in His GLORY) which is the FIRSTFRUIT of the CHILDREN, ...IS being REVEALED in US, which are also SONS... which is a MAJESTIC GLORY beyond any limited finite, ...IMAGINATION or perception...

In the REVEALING of the [living] KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... is the WORD "revealed"... as well as the LOF which IS the CONSUMING FIRE of the WORD... and that consuming portion of Itself which MAKES ALL things NEW and ALIVE (which is the RECONCILIATION by GOOD of) THAT which HAS become (due to envolvement with the revelation of EVIL and its knowledge) OLD and DEAD -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- John 14:6 -- 2 Cor 5:17

Most view the book of REVELATION as an account of the FUTURE, but the WORD is BOTH the ALPHA and OMEGA of ALL THINGS -- Rev 1:8 -- Rev 22:13 -- and as ALL THINGS are REVEALED (whether good or evil)... so is the WORD being REVEALED... By which ALL THINGS (whether good or evil) CONSIST -- Col 1:16-17

It is not by COINCIDENCE that the ALPHA and OMEGA are mentioned in the 1st and LAST portions of the book of Revelation...  For CHRIST is The FIRST (thing) ---> everything in between --> and the LAST (thing)... concerning this REALM and ALL things within it, that are MADE to appear IN IT...

Within THIS REALM is the LAKE of FIRE... which consumes all TEMPORAL acts of EVIL done within it, never to BE repeated again:

Nahum 1:9 -- what do ye imagine against YHVH?  HE will make an UTTER END... AFFLICTION [#H6869 = TSARAH = adversity] shall NOT RISE up the SECOND TIME.

The FIRE is found in anything which causes or experiences SORROW... for it is in the EXIT of the FIRE which also TRIED CHRIST -- Heb 2:10 -- Rev 3:18 -- and the entry of the JOY of the YHVH, that all LEAVE sorrow, as each LEAVES this realm -- Matt 25:21 -- The "talents" are GOOD, multiplied via the doings of GOOD within this REALM of EVIL... which shall survive this realm of FIRE, and ever ABIDE to GLORIFY GOD, in the eternal -- 1 Cor 3:11-15

ALL GLORY is due Him... NONE is due unto us... it is beneficially SHED upon us... For He is the GOD OF GLORY -- Psalm 29:3

...'ol   willieH  :cloud9:

Maybe, but like I said it doesn't bother me if what you say happens to be true. My faith is in God that he will do that which is right, whether that be Anhilation or UR, both give all people a chance to follow Jesus.  :cloud9:

There is no "CHANCE" whatsoever involved in the Salvation of GOD, nor is "CHANCE" even mentioned in the Scriptures concerning it...

Men do not and CANNOT come of themselves, and follow JESUS... Your lack of attentive study is showing:

John 6:44 --  NO man ...CAN... come to Me except the Father which hath sent Me, ...DRAW [drag in Greek] him, and I will raise him up at the last day...

What part of "NO MAN CAN"... which means "MAN CANNOT"... do you fail to comprehend?  :dontknow:

You shall have your own portion of "Lake of FIRE"  :flamebreath: ..."FIRE"... to deal with due to this INDIFFERENCE... which shall spiritually "annhilate" your support of the fallacy of ANNHILATION, and your accompanying indifference to others, before the conclusion of the last day...

ANNHILATION and its supporters are no more preaching truth than are those who testify ET -- to the WORLD that GOD SO [ETERNALLY] LOVES...

They just preach VENGENCE, in a shorter form... instead of the PEACE and forgiving GRACE, ...for which the GOSPEL is named -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15

And shall be named amongst this number which shall answer for said indifferent support of the EVIL portrayal of the GOD of GRACE and PEACE -- Matt 7:22-23 -- amongst which number you are presently named...  :sigh:

Btw... I will be interested in how you shall explain, GOD'S "RE-burning' [annhilation] of the JEWS is in what ways, more "LOVING" and "MERCIFUL", than was HITLER's ANNHILATION of them...  :rolleye:

...willieH  :happygrin:

Willie you sound alot like the members I left at the other board...just on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Shawn... I am myself... and cannot be otherwise, and if you find me "uncomfortable", I am sorry that you do...  :blush:

That however, does not change the position of what I have stated and you have quoted above.

How do you know God will judge those by "fire" because they believe in something different than yourself?

Try "on" this passage of Scripture -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- see how it fits... In your estimation, who is exempted from this "FIRE", Shawn? ...Same "FIRE" here:  Mark 9:49

I find your tone offensive and out of line with the nature of this board.

And I find it interesting that you come against me on the board with a PERSONAL comment such as this, while objecting about being PERSONAL?  :spank:

Again... I am sorry if you find me and "my tone" uncomfortable...  :blush: Many of the RELIGIOUS of CHRIST's day found Him and "His tone" quite uncomfortable as well...  :dontknow: 

Please know that in saying this, I am NOT in ANY WAY, alluding myself to be equal to the Great SAVIOR of ALL...  rather am pointing out that TRUTH is [was] and always will be, found "uncomfortable" by those in opposition to it, regardless of all the "tip-toeing" that might be attempted by either of us, to avoid uncomfortable confrontations, as we discuss OPPOSITE viewpoints of the VERY SAME WORDS...

Condemning people to Gehenna isn't your job.

Not ONCE in the above quote, did I "condemn" anyone to "GEHENNA"... If I had, you would have quoted it specifically. 

But in a "feather-ruffled huff", you have become offended, and thereby jump to conclusions toward something that was not even stated by me...  :sigh:

To begin with, I do not believe GEHENNA to be a condemnation of GOD, for He SENDS NOT -- John 3:17 -- His WORD to CONDEMN, which also means that the SOURCE of the MISSION of the WORD is based and motivated by NON-CONDEMNATION... rather, GEHENNA in the literal,  is a vehicle/method of disposal of that which is useless... and portrayal of THIS REALM in which that USELESS GARBAGE and DISHONOR appears, and IS DISPOSED of...

Anyone which uses the WORD which is NOT SENT to CONDEMN...  is using the WORD in conveying that it contains CONDEMNATION... is misusing the WORD, and misrepresenting the INTENDED MISSION of IT... Which is NOT ...SENT, ...to CONDEMN...

The WORD "SENT" --- the Apostles into the WORLD [God so loved] to teach the GOOD NEWS... which is an extension of the MISSION of the WORD which is NOT SENT to CONDEMN, rather is/was/will be "SENT" to SAVE the WORLD that GOD so LOVED still LOVES and will ALWAYS LOVE...

I am thinking, that either you just "quickly browsed" my writing, or have just misunderstood it.   

I am NOT IN ANY WAY, an advocate of HELL FIRE, be it your current believed FUTURISTIC version of it [Annhilation] or the commonly believed and equally FUTURISTIC, extended version [ET]...  :dontknow:

GEHENNA FIRE is that [GODFIRE/time] which consumes dishonor which is LONGSUFFERED by the Creator -- Rom 9:22 

If you observe GEHENNA as was held by the "Jews of the day"... it was a place of LITERAL FIRE where LITERAL GARBAGE (useless waste) and LITERAL DISHONORABLE ...DEAD... bodies were disposed of... :nod:

Actually, I am a STRONG proponent of PEACE... and PEACE is not ususally presented to others without the emergence of a "SWORD" of "division" -- Matt 10:34 -- for when it is presented... those who embrace OTHER than PEACE and the GOSPEL of IT [Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15] -- shall draw the line of DIVISION between their stand [annhilation/ET] and the PEACE which is truly the GOSPEL --[UR]...

For they cannot and DO NOT present the WORD of YHVH GOD by employing REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- to found the belief they embrace as containing LOVE, MERCY, or PEACE...  And that GRACE indeed ABOUNDS within said (offended) BELIEF -- Rom 5:20 -- in and to a MUCH LARGER degree, than did ...SIN!  :dontknow: 

Instead the "gospel" embraced, contains the OPPOSITE equation... and thusly, the DESTRUCTION of ANNHILATION of ET ..."rears" its necessary HEAD, to DISPOSE of the one which was amongst SIN to a degree which was --- OVERWHELMING to the presence and power of GRACE...  :sigh:

You are welcome to this... as for me... no thanks... had 25 years of it's burdensome fallacy (ET in Salvation Army / Annhilation in SDA church), didn't buy it then, don't buy it now...

No matter how strongly you believe in a stance there is zero need to go there.  I hope this board doesn't condemn this type of discourse.

Again, I believe you have misread my words, or misunderstand them... They are not intended toward any PERSON... they are intended to DEMEAN the DISPICABLE and HEINOUS presentations of -- YHVH God -- that I LOVE and respect... IOW, I am in no way against you... I am against your belief.

You are welcome to believe and teach as you will... it does not matter to me... however, I shall in the name of PEACE, LOVE and MERCY, which is founded in REASON... stand strong for the GRACE of GOD which IS the SAVIOR of ALL MEN... in the face of the beliefs and teachings which oppose it, without regard to the fact that it might ANGER a given one which holds, and teaches, amiss...

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[WhiteWings]

but if UR is true then torture/pain will take place as the person is purged of their sins,

But is the word torture in the Bible? (in connection to God'd judgement)

[thinktank]

but if UR is true then torture/pain will take place as the person is purged of their sins,

But is the word torture in the Bible? (in connection to God'd judgement)

Sorry to confuse you I don't mean torture as in God will burn the person until they repent or that God will use torture methods such as the war incidents. I mean that when people suffer, they sometimes use the word it is tortorous, such as when a person is paying the price for their sins, and if UR happens to be true, it means that people who are thrown into the lake of fire (a spiritual fire according to UR) are being purged of their sins and just like us now, who might find it tortourous that our favourite chocolate pie can no longer be eaten, they would also find it tortourous/distressing/painfull that their favourite sins are being purged from them.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, they do, but joy comes in the morning (light/Spirit). The thing nobody has mentioned yet, is that since He went in to get those that had died up to 33AD, if He DIDN'T do the same for the souls of men since then, then He would be a respector of persons.

Also, the "new" covenant is supposed to be better than the "old". How is being thrown in "gehenna" forever, better than Him going for them in the first one? Blessings...

[shawn]

Willie...do your thing.  I'm merely surprised the moderators allow it to happen.  I have been overall very pleased with the tone of this board.  The amount of respectful and gentle discussion has been a breath of fresh air.  Your "style" seems to be an inappropriate fit for this particular community.  While you may believe you have cornered the market on truth there is a certain amount of arrogance that exudes from that belief.  That can overflow into messages and others will find it offensive.  If you are comfortable with that and the moderators are comfortable with that who am I to condemn it.  I will just skip past your posts.

[thinktank]

:cloud9: Yes, they do, but joy comes in the morning (light/Spirit). The thing nobody has mentioned yet, is that since He went in to get those that had died up to 33AD, if He DIDN'T do the same for the souls of men since then, then He would be a respector of persons.

Also, the "new" covenant is supposed to be better than the "old". How is being thrown in "gehenna" forever, better than Him going for them in the first one? Blessings...

I think though that these people who raised with him in 33 Ad were not all people but only some people. Those some people I belive were those people who lived to see him preach and accepted him as lord and saviour. The reason I believe this , is because only a handful of people raised with him from the dead and hebrews 12:39-40
shows that the old covenant saints did not receive the promise, but we have a better promise.

So according to this verse the old testament saints are still in their graves, that they without us should not be made perfect. This fits with what im saying, that the unjust acts24 will be raised from the dead by the saints during the 1000 millenium peace.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :msealed: :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

but if UR is true then torture/pain will take place as the person is purged of their sins,

But is the word torture in the Bible? (in connection to God'd judgement)

Sorry to confuse you I don't mean torture as in God will burn the person until they repent or that God will use torture methods such as the war incidents. I mean that when people suffer, they sometimes use the word it is tortorous, such as when a person is paying the price for their sins, and if UR happens to be true, it means that people who are thrown into the lake of fire (a spiritual fire according to UR) are being purged of their sins and just like us now, who might find it tortourous that our favourite chocolate pie can no longer be eaten, they would also find it tortourous/distressing/painfull that their favourite sins are being purged from them.

I'm not confused. And I think it's not paying a price. Jesus already payed in full.

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

[micah7:9]

 :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

but if UR is true then torture/pain will take place as the person is purged of their sins,

But is the word torture in the Bible? (in connection to God'd judgement)

I'm not confused. And I think it's not paying a price. Jesus already payed in full.

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

Now i'm confused, I thought that UR was that if a person did not receive Jesus as saviour then they would be thrown into the lake of fire(UR =a spiritual fire) and this fire would purge them and it would hurt them.

[jabcat]

I agree with you, God will do what is right.

Refinement is painful, in this life or the next.  As we lose anything, any works not of God.  I think it does hurt, but it's corrective purification not just punishment to no good end.

Torture is basanismos - rubbing metal to metal, testing for purity.  It's not without friction or heat.   

God sets the conditions for repentance.  For all, that is painful.  For some, depending on the hardness of the heart (material being worked with) it may be so painful coming to that place of dying to self, that is seems death would be preferable. 

But weeping only lasts for the night, and joy comes in the morning.   :bigGrin: