Israel's population at the exodus

[Doug]

Some have wondered whether the reports of the number of Israelites who came out of Egypt are accurate, as they seem to be far too great a crowd of people, numbering in the hundreds of thousands or even millions.

But there is a suggestion that the actual numbers were much smaller. In Numbers 1, the word translated "thousands" is possibly mistranslated, according to this view. The same Hebrew word is also used to refer to a clan, or family, or a troop, or divisions (eleph, Strong's number 505 or 504: אָ֫לֶפ).

The word is translated divisions in Numbers 1:16, in the NAS. It may be translated similarly in the rest of the chapter, which changes things such that two numbers are given for each tribe, first the number of families, and then the number of men 20 years old and over. 

Numbers 1:16
BIB: אֲבוֹתָ֑ם רָאשֵׁ֛י אַלְפֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל הֵֽם׃
NAS: they were the heads of divisions of Israel.
KJV: heads of thousands in

Below is a table showing the number of families, and the number of men 20 years old and over, in separate columns, from Numbers 1.

Tribe		Families		# Men		Reference
Ruben		46		500		Num 1:21
Simeon		59		300		Num 1:23
Gad		45		650		Num 1:25
Judah		74		600		Num 1:27
Issachar		54		400		Num 1:29
Zebulun		57		400		Num 1:31
Ephraim		40		500		Num 1:33
Manasseh		32		200		Num 1:35
Benjamin		35		400		Num 1:37
Dan		62		700		Num 1:39
Asher		41		500		Num 1:41
Naphtali		53		400		Num 1:43
Totals		598 [600]		5,550 [3,550]		Num 1:46

In the totals line I provide both the totals of the column above, and the numbers in the Scripture (in color).

See this site for more.

Doug

[redhotmagma]

I was just thinking about this last night

[Doug]

It is interesting to compare the numbers given in the table in my previous post with the numbers of those who began the New Testament church, reported in the book of Acts. The table shows the number of men as 5,550; this compares with the number reported in Acts.

Acts 4:4
Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

On the day of Pentecost the number of those added to the church was about 3,000.

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

The number of tribes of Israel (twelve) corresponds with the number of the disciples of the Lord.

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes and the 3000 relates to the number of those slain in the OT. The 12 tribes's name/natures combined with the 12 disciples names/natures = 24 elders (word there runs into a meaning of rays, like rays of the sun) around the throne (Christ in us, He is heaven/firmament between waters below and waters above; our heart becomes His throne when all powers and principalites in us are overcome by the blood).

Also represents, the 24 hours of a day, with 12 hours of darkness (12 tribes, their light had not yet come), and 12 hours of light (12 disciples), the DAY of the Lord. The 7th day is not no part darkness because it is not there, it's no part darkness because the darkness has been covered, like the tablets of the law were covered in the ark of the covenant. My  :2c:  Blessings....

[Doug]

In the table presented in the first post, the total number of families is 598, but the Scripture reports 600. As seen in the numbers of men of war in each tribe, they are rounded to the nearest 50; all but one are hundreds. And evidently, the number of families is rounded up to 600, which I suppose would be reasonable in a census.

If the approach and data presented in the table is right, there was probably a redaction or editing of the text to derive the total number of men, which in the table is 5,550, whereas Scripture reports 3,550.

We can see that in the standard interpretation, the total adds up to 603,550; perhaps an unknown redactor has changed the "five" to "three" in Numbers 1:46, or the whole verse might be spurious.

Doug

[Doug]

If we compare the accounts of the census in Numbers 1 in the KJV and the LXX translated by C. L. Brenton, there are some curious differences. One is that the order in which Gad is listed is different. In the KJV Gad is listed third, in the LXX Gad is listed in ninth place.

Also, the number of men in the tribe of Reuben differs; the KJV has 46,500; the LXX has 46,400. So there is a discrepancy of 100.

This ought to have affected the total number reported, but the total number is the same as in the KJV.

It seems then, that at least one version is changed from the original, and possibly both. The total given in the LXX might be simply copied from the MT, by the addition of vs. 46.

http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Numbers/index.htm

Doug

[Doug]

When we look at the distribution of the numbers reported for the number of men, in the table presented in the first post in this thread, we find that they cluster around 500, and there is not a random distribution between 0 and 900, as would be expected in the conventional interpretation. The graphic below shows this. The y-axis is the frequency, and the x-axis is the number of men in each tribe. It looks a lot like what is called a "bell" distribution.

(http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/exodus-pop.png)

This distribution supports the interpretation proposed. The number of men of war in all the twelve tribes averaged about 500.

Doug

[Doug]

A test for the interpretation of Numbers 1 that was outlined above is whether the number of men of war in each tribe reported in the census of Numbers 26 show a similar distribution. They do. A graphic illustrating the frequency of the numbers is provided below. Again, the y-axis is the frequency, and the x-axis is the number of men in each tribe.

(http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/exodus-pop2.png)

The numbers of men of war in each tribe cluster around 500. Again, since the numbers are not randomly distributed between 0 and 900, the conventional interpretation is probably spurious.

Doug

[sheila]

and on the bells of the horses,written'Holiness unto the Lord"   horse= fleshly Israel, horse = spiritual horses of fire.    again, that portrayed in the natural

  signifying/mirroring the higher spiritual

[WhiteWings]

Some have wondered whether the reports of the number of Israelites who came out of Egypt are accurate, as they seem to be far too great a crowd of people, numbering in the hundreds of thousands or even millions.

But there is a suggestion that the actual numbers were much smaller. In Numbers 1, the word translated "thousands" is possibly mistranslated, according to this view. The same Hebrew word is also used to refer to a clan, or family, or a troop, or divisions (eleph, Strong's number 505 or 504: אָ֫לֶפ).

The word is translated divisions in Numbers 1:16, in the NAS. It may be translated similarly in the rest of the chapter, which changes things such that two numbers are given for each tribe, first the number of families, and then the number of men 20 years old and over. 

Numbers 1:16
BIB: אֲבוֹתָ֑ם רָאשֵׁ֛י אַלְפֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל הֵֽם׃
NAS: they were the heads of divisions of Israel.
KJV: heads of thousands in

. Thousand. This numeral, a feminine noun, usually precedes the noun it accompanies. When the accompanying noun precedes, it is plural. If other numbers are joined to they usually precede it. The basic meaning is one thousand but it is often to be taken as a figurative term.
This numeral is usually employed in tabulations, censuses, and other enumerations in the basic sense of the figure 1000 (Gen 20:16; 24:60; Ex 12:37; Num 1:21ff.).

There are, however, several specialized usages. One is in the basic sense of the largest basic division of leadership in political oversight or military leadership (Ex 18:21; Num 1:16; 31:4; Deut 1:15; I Chr 13:1; 27:1; Amos 5:3).

From this usage another which developed was the application of the term as representative of the extreme, i.e. Eccl 6:6, an extreme number of years. This in turn is related to the practice of making the numeral representative of the opposite extreme of that which is quite small or few in number (Deut 32;30;Josh 23:10; Job 9:3; Isa 30:17). At times the concept seems simply to represent that which is excessive (Mic 6:7: Song 8:12).

A notable use of the term is in connection with God. In such contexts the basic idea seems to be Ex 20:6; 34:7; Deut 5:10; Jer 32:18). This mercy is also to reach to a thousand generations (Deut 7:9), as is his command (Ps 105:8). The cattle on a thousand hills belong to God (Ps 50:10). A thousand years are but as a day in his sight (Ps 90:4).

These examples show that God uses the term in reference to himself figuratively. an indefinite or innumerable amount. This same practice is seen in the nt, e.g. II Pet 3:8 and probably also in Rev 20:2, 5.

The root occurs in several Semitic languages besides Hebrew, e.g. Aramaic, Arabic, and Ugaritic (UT, 19: no. 133) with the same basic meaning of one thousand.

[It is occasionally alleged that since means a company of a thousand men it could mean any military unit, even of reduced strength. From there it came to mean a family unit or clan, even a small one. But this means that the 1000Num 1 and 26 is reduced to a small figure in accord with the desire of the commentator. The wilderness wandering and its miraculous supply is also reduced to naturalistic proportions. But it should be remembered that the conquest of Transjordan and of Palestine was not accomplished by a handful of men. Also such juggling must alter the text of the Numbers passages which by the addition of their totals clearly speak of 1000's of soldiers. r.l.h.]

[WhiteWings]

If we compare the accounts of the census in Numbers 1 in the KJV and the LXX translated by C. L. Brenton, there are some curious differences. One is that the order in which Gad is listed is different. In the KJV Gad is listed third, in the LXX Gad is listed in ninth place.

Also, the number of men in the tribe of Reuben differs; the KJV has 46,500; the LXX has 46,400. So there is a discrepancy of 100.

This ought to have affected the total number reported, but the total number is the same as in the KJV.

It seems then, that at least one version is changed from the original, and possibly both. The total given in the LXX might be simply copied from the MT, by the addition of vs. 46.

http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Numbers/index.htm

Doug

Same (100 difference) in the Genesis genealogy. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/hebrew_masoretic_vs_greek_septuagint_timeline_7546.msg87275.html#msg87275 (Read my second post for some problems that causes)
I (still) wonder why.

[Doug]

. Thousand. This numeral, a feminine noun, usually precedes the noun it accompanies. When the accompanying noun precedes, it is plural. If other numbers are joined to they usually precede it. The basic meaning is one thousand but it is often to be taken as a figurative term.
This numeral is usually employed in tabulations, censuses, and other enumerations in the basic sense of the figure 1000 (Gen 20:16; 24:60; Ex 12:37; Num 1:21ff.).

There are, however, several specialized usages. One is in the basic sense of the largest basic division of leadership in political oversight or military leadership (Ex 18:21; Num 1:16; 31:4; Deut 1:15; I Chr 13:1; 27:1; Amos 5:3).

From this usage another which developed was the application of the term as representative of the extreme, i.e. Eccl 6:6, an extreme number of years. This in turn is related to the practice of making the numeral representative of the opposite extreme of that which is quite small or few in number (Deut 32;30;Josh 23:10; Job 9:3; Isa 30:17). At times the concept seems simply to represent that which is excessive (Mic 6:7: Song 8:12).

A notable use of the term is in connection with God. In such contexts the basic idea seems to be Ex 20:6; 34:7; Deut 5:10; Jer 32:18). This mercy is also to reach to a thousand generations (Deut 7:9), as is his command (Ps 105:8). The cattle on a thousand hills belong to God (Ps 50:10). A thousand years are but as a day in his sight (Ps 90:4).

These examples show that God uses the term in reference to himself figuratively. an indefinite or innumerable amount. This same practice is seen in the nt, e.g. II Pet 3:8 and probably also in Rev 20:2, 5.

The root occurs in several Semitic languages besides Hebrew, e.g. Aramaic, Arabic, and Ugaritic (UT, 19: no. 133) with the same basic meaning of one thousand.

[It is occasionally alleged that since means a company of a thousand men it could mean any military unit, even of reduced strength. From there it came to mean a family unit or clan, even a small one. But this means that the 1000Num 1 and 26 is reduced to a small figure in accord with the desire of the commentator. The wilderness wandering and its miraculous supply is also reduced to naturalistic proportions. But it should be remembered that the conquest of Transjordan and of Palestine was not accomplished by a handful of men. Also such juggling must alter the text of the Numbers passages which by the addition of their totals clearly speak of 1000's of soldiers. r.l.h.]

Can you supply a url, or a reference to the source of your quote?

Doug

[WhiteWings]

I can't. It's part of my Bible software.


Theological Wordbook
of the Old Testament
R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, Jr., Bruce K. Waltke
MOODY PUBLISHERS
CHICAGO
© 1980 by
The Moody Bible Institute
of Chicago
All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced in any form without permission in writing from the publisher, except in the case of brief quotations embodied in critical articles or reviews
http://www.theword.net/index.php?purchase-item&pid=39&l=english


Bibliography: Davis, John J., "Biblical Numerics," Grace Journal 5:30–4. "The Rhetorical Use of Numbers in the Old Testament," Grace Journal 8:40–48. Wenham, J. W., "Large Numbers in the Old Testament," Tyndale Bulletin 18:19–53. Wolf, C., "Terminology of Israel's Tribal Organization," JBL 65:45– TDNT, IX, pp. 467–69.
J.B.S.

[Doug]

I can't. It's part of my Bible software.


Theological Wordbook
of the Old Testament
R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, Jr., Bruce K. Waltke
MOODY PUBLISHERS
CHICAGO
© 1980 by
The Moody Bible Institute
of Chicago
All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced in any form without permission in writing from the publisher, except in the case of brief quotations embodied in critical articles or reviews
http://www.theword.net/index.php?purchase-item&pid=39&l=english


Bibliography: Davis, John J., "Biblical Numerics," Grace Journal 5:30–4. "The Rhetorical Use of Numbers in the Old Testament," Grace Journal 8:40–48. Wenham, J. W., "Large Numbers in the Old Testament," Tyndale Bulletin 18:19–53. Wolf, C., "Terminology of Israel's Tribal Organization," JBL 65:45– TDNT, IX, pp. 467–69.
J.B.S.

That's fine, thanks.

Doug

[Doug]

One of the problems with the traditional view of the huge population of Israelites that came out of Egypt concerns the account of the negotiations between the messengers of Moses and the king of Edom. Here, the Israelites said they wished to pass through the country of Edom, and that they would remain on the highway.

Numbers 20
14 And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us:
15 How our fathers went down into Egypt, and we have dwelt in Egypt a long time; and the Egyptians vexed us, and our fathers:
16 And when we cried unto the LORD, he heard our voice, and sent an angel, and hath brought us forth out of Egypt: and, behold, we are in Kadesh, a city in the uttermost of thy border:
17 Let us pass, I pray thee, through thy country: we will not pass through the fields, or through the vineyards, neither will we drink of the water of the wells: we will go by the king's high way, we will not turn to the right hand nor to the left, until we have passed thy borders.
18 And Edom said unto him, Thou shalt not pass by me, lest I come out against thee with the sword.
19 And the children of Israel said unto him, We will go by the high way: and if I and my cattle drink of thy water, then I will pay for it: I will only, without doing anything else, go through on my feet.
20 And he said, Thou shalt not go through. And Edom came out against him with much people, and with a strong hand.
21 Thus Edom refused to give Israel passage through his border: wherefore Israel turned away from him.

Evidently there was a road or a path they could follow. But it was not a modern superhighway. The problem is that if two million people were to walk along such a road, say two at a time, and with six feet between them, the line of people would be over a thousand miles long! And at stops along the way, for water or lunch, etc., it would be difficult for them to all remain on the road. 

Other similar problems are mentioned by Ernest L. Martin in a discussion of the subject in Appendix 6 to his "101 Bible Secrets." In the solution proposed by Martin, the numbers in both the census records in Numbers 1 and 26 include all the dead ancestors of each of tribes! See "Israel's Population at the Exodus."

Martin concluded that no more than 120,000 Israelites were involved in the Exodus.

Another relevant bit of information to consider is the number of the firstborn males:

Numbers 3:43
And all the firstborn males by the number of names, from a month old and upward, of those that were numbered of them, were twenty and two thousand two hundred and threescore and thirteen.

This also implies there were a similar number of families with at least one male child, or about 66,800 people, at the time of the census. That is, 1 man + 1 woman + 1 child. Some families would include more children, but on the other hand some of the firstborn males would be unmarried or childless. It tends to discredit the idea that two million or more people were involved in the Exodus.

Doug

[WhiteWings]

I guess it must be some significant "Biblical number"
120,000 is one of them. What about 144,000?

[Beloved Servant]

"There are several examples of where God killed large numbers of the Jews because they were sinning and in rebellion to His revealed moral laws through Moses. 40,700 Jews were killed within the first two years after leaving Egypt. Then another 24,000 just before they entered the promised land. This is most troubling for those who suggest the entire exodus population was about 20,000. The large number of deaths are consistent with a very large population."


http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-population-of-jews-hebrews.htm