Tentmaker Forum

a word which mean only that , does it exist ?
thank you very much

Erwan, I don't think there was  Greek or Hebrw word for eternity in the first century.
But that's one of the huge differences between UR and ET.
KJV is full of everlasting, eternal, endless etc.
But translations like CLV and YLT always use 'age'.
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Eternal-Life

i think it is a small problem for universalism: the concept of eternity exists in the mind of every human
maybe if the concept doesn't exist in the literal vocabulary people use a word which exists and transform the meaning

I think not only UR has that problem. ET even more.
UR defines 'age' as 'age'.
ET defines 'age' as 'everlasting' because a concept without a proper word exists.

i have to accept that your reasoning is strong
i think that God created greek language, so he  probably able to create a word which means exactly what he wants .

Yes, there is a Greek word for eternity - aionion. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible gives it meaning as "perpetual"(G166). Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament says of aionion, "without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be" in reference to Romans 16:26, whereby the apostle Paul speaks of the "everlasting God" as well "without end, never to cease, everlasting"(pg 20), pointing to 2 Corinthians 4:18, in which Paul says that "the things seen are temporary, but the things unseen are everlasting". This Greek word is used at such places as Matthew 19:16, 29; 25:46, Mark 10:17; 10:30; Luke 10:25; 18:18; 2 Pet 1:11; Jude 1:21.

The Greek word aion (G165), meaning "age", may also refer to a period of time in man's history, whether having or not having datable bounds. Greek lexicographers show the word to mean "space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age," and also "lifetime, life," or "age, generation." Since an epoch, or age, can begin and end or it can go on forever, it follows that ai·on´ could refer to a period of time that is endless, though having a beginning.

Thus, as recorded at Mark 3:29, Jesus said that the blasphemer against the holy spirit was guilty of "everlasting [agelong, perpetual, eternal] sin," or a sin never to be canceled out at any future time. A similar expression was used with regard to the fruitless fig tree, where "forever" in the Greek is literally "to [for] the age." (Matt 21:19) At Jesus' birth the angelic promise was that "he will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever [literally, into the ages]."(Luke 1:33)

However, ai·on´ can also refer more particularly to the consistent state of things or the current state of affairs or features that distinguish a certain period of time, epoch, or age rather than to the matter of time itself. As R. C. Trench states in Synonyms of the New Testament (London, 1961, p. 203): "Thus signifying time, it comes presently to signify all which exists in the world under conditions of time; . . . and then, more ethically, the course and current of this world's affairs" and has therefore been rendered as "system of things" (or "of the order of things") at Matthew 24:3 in the New World Translation.

Ervan - I know you said the concept of eternity exists in the mind of every human.
IMO - We may know the word but frankly only being able to see the temporary and see death all around,
I personally can't understand the full meaning of eternity any more than I can understand the meaning of infinite. :dontknow:

eternity is immortality..........never ending=forever.....

  mortality is that which does not endure...temporal...that which has an end....thus....the sands of time..

  in an 'hour' glass..is represented as that which comes from above...to below..and then is 'turned over'

  again.  For this reason Abrahams seed is like the sands and the stars.

   for this reason women have hour glass figures..as God's spiritual children are sown in the earth

  and clayvessel/dust body/field..for this exercizee in good and evil...

  when all the stars have fallen to the earth and been drawn back up again......immortality/forever

  perfected...enduring[will not wear out] is upon us.  the full number of Zion is known of God..He

  knows and names and calls the stars'come up here' in theeir order.

  heaven and earth will wear out...the new heaven and earth will endure eternally.

    God's spiritual progency is planted a terrestial body.[temporal]..and raised up a celestial body[immortal]

   ages are but time as each[generation] is sown into earth and completes the circuit..of this good evil

  exercize.

  when your spirit returns to God..it enters the immortal realm of God[eternity]

   THERE IS NO SAVIOUR APART FROM ME= seperation from Him =death

Thus, as recorded at Mark 3:29, Jesus said that the blasphemer against the holy spirit was guilty of "everlasting [agelong, perpetual, eternal] sin," or a sin never to be canceled out at any future time. A similar expression was used with regard to the fruitless fig tree, where "forever" in the Greek is literally "to [for] the age." (Matt 21:19) At Jesus' birth the angelic promise was that "he will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever [literally, into the ages]."(Luke 1:33)




I have heard other explanations for this section.  I think further discussion by those more educated in than Greek than myself should enter here. 

At Matthew 12, Jesus says: "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."(Matt 12:31, 32) Thus, as recorded by Mark, that "whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin."(Mark 3:29)

Because the Jewish religious leaders saw the outworking of God's holy spirit by the miracles that Jesus performed, and yet denied this, Jesus said that these had ' blasphemed against the holy spirit ', resulting in their never being forgiven. At John 8, because of their being obstinate, unyielding, though massive evidence is before them that he is the promised Messiah, Jesus tells the Pharisees: "You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Therefore I said to you, you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins."(John 8:23, 24)

Many of the Jewish religious leaders saw firsthand many of the miracles that Jesus carried out by means of the holy spirit (Mark 2:1-12), but stubbornly refused to accept this as convincing evidence of his being the Christ. As a result, Jesus said that their sins would never be forgiven, so that when they died, these would have no hope a resurrection from the dead, or they would remain dead forever, being cast into symbolic Gehenna or everlasting destruction.(Matt 23:15, 33)

now..now..man must LIVE! by every word of God..you can't just take bits and peices from the scripture

  to kill man.......Blind Pharisees[who blinded them..but evil offspring spirits]

   HE TOLD YOU EVERY SIN AND BLASPHEMY MAN SPEAKS WILL BE FORGIVEN HIM......................

  so He was not speaking of 'man'  when He spoke of the unforgiven.  He was addressing a spirit

  an anti-christ spirit that does blaspheme against the spirit of God.

  now..there is a sin unto death..that man may expierence......turn such a man over to satan...

  for the destruction of the flesh...in...order that the 'SPIRIT" may be saved on the day of the Lord


  1 Timothy 1;20AMONG THEM ARE HYMENAEOUS AND ALEXANDER WHOM I HAVE HANDED OVER

  TO SATAN...IN...ORDER..THAT..THEY..BE..TAUGHT NOT TO BLASPHEME

   Paul also speaks of Isreal in part being blinded....for a time..but all Isreal would be saved....

  in the Law covenant if a man is blinded he must go free..so if blinded Pharisees are blinded

  by the god of this world[forgive them Father they know not what they do] and an evil spirit speaks

blasphemies through them and sins against the holy spirit..what do you think?

  for all this man serves as an example of the spirit warfare of good/God and evil/satan..two distinct

  contrasting spirits.

  it takes a spirit to sin against a spirit...also..do not forget satan's power to work signs and miracles to even deceive

elect if that were possible.

   He says...I will put a new spirit in you..to those who have another in them......

   

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 27, 2012, 03:11:51 PM
Ervan - I know you said the concept of eternity exists in the mind of every human.
IMO - We may know the word but frankly only being able to see the temporary and see death all around,
I personally can't understand the full meaning of eternity any more than I can understand the meaning of infinite. :dontknow:

It is infinitely more  laborious to understand eternity.
Since we have all of  eternity to divine the infinite.
That which ends has never begun.

Not long after having a lengthy discussion with both the Pharisees and Jews, Jesus met up with a "man blind from birth".(John 9:1) After healing him, giving him sight (John 9:6, 7), the Pharisees thrice questioned the "man blind from birth", but never accepting his answer, though they saw the miracle for themselves.(John 9:15, 24, 26) They obstinately refused to accept the fact of the miraculous giving of sight by means of holy spirit through the hand of Jesus. They then threw the man out ! (John 9:34)

Jesus later meets up with the Pharisees who had saw and questioned the blind man, with these telling Jesus: "We are not blind also, are we?" (John 9:40) Jesus now says to them: "If you were blind (physically as the man born blind), you would have no sin. But now you say, 'We see.' Your sin remains."(John 9:41) Jesus says that these are not forgiven of their sins, for by their unreasonable and arrogant attitude, unwilling to allow the evidence that they saw ("we see") to show that Jesus, by means of holy spirit, healed the "man blind from birth", an act that only our Creator, Jehovah God can perform. These will never be forgiven, "guilty of everlasting sin".(Mark 3:29)

Quote from: jaareshiah on October 27, 2012, 06:43:06 PM
At Matthew 12, Jesus says: "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."(Matt 12:31, 32) Thus, as recorded by Mark, that "whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin."(Mark 3:29)

Because the Jewish religious leaders saw the outworking of God's holy spirit by the miracles that Jesus performed, and yet denied this, Jesus said that these had ' blasphemed against the holy spirit ', resulting in their never being forgiven. At John 8, because of their being obstinate, unyielding, though massive evidence is before them that he is the promised Messiah, Jesus tells the Pharisees: "You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Therefore I said to you, you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins."(John 8:23, 24)

Many of the Jewish religious leaders saw firsthand many of the miracles that Jesus carried out by means of the holy spirit (Mark 2:1-12), but stubbornly refused to accept this as convincing evidence of his being the Christ. As a result, Jesus said that their sins would never be forgiven, so that when they died, these would have no hope a resurrection from the dead, or they would remain dead forever, being cast into symbolic Gehenna or everlasting destruction.(Matt 23:15, 33)

So, I assume you do not believe in UR...but some form of annihilation?

Ajar...here is a link to one of the best explanations for that passage I have seen.  Would love your take on it.

http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/unpardon.htm

Quote from: jaareshiah on October 27, 2012, 06:43:06 PM
At Matthew 12, Jesus says: "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."(Matt 12:31, 32) Thus, as recorded by Mark, that "whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin."(Mark 3:29)

(Matt. 12:32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, {age} neither in the world {age} to come.

Notice: it says neither in this age, or the age to come. Jesus was speaking of the age he lived in and the age we live in now, not the next age when Christ returns and everyone will be resurrected. The reason he said not in this age or the age to come is, all of these blasphemers he speaks of will remain dead until Christ returns and resurrects them, then they will be forgiven.

Quote from: jaareshiah
Because the Jewish religious leaders saw the outworking of God's holy spirit by the miracles that Jesus performed, and yet denied this, Jesus said that these had ' blasphemed against the holy spirit ', resulting in their never being forgiven. At John 8, because of their being obstinate, unyielding, though massive evidence is before them that he is the promised Messiah, Jesus tells the Pharisees: "You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Therefore I said to you, you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins."(John 8:23, 24)

Many of the Jewish religious leaders saw firsthand many of the miracles that Jesus carried out by means of the holy spirit (Mark 2:1-12), but stubbornly refused to accept this as convincing evidence of his being the Christ. As a result, Jesus said that their sins would never be forgiven, so that when they died, these would have no hope a resurrection from the dead, or they would remain dead forever, being cast into symbolic Gehenna or everlasting destruction.(Matt 23:15, 33)

No, he said only in the age that thay were living in and the age we are living in. When Christ returns and everyone is resurrected and is taught of God, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and God will eventually be all in all.

One thing was, Jesus had not been crucified at that time and that is why he told them they would die in their sins because there was no sacrifice for sins till after Jesus was crucified.

CHB

Quote from: shawn on October 27, 2012, 07:55:56 PM

Quote from: jaareshiah on October 27, 2012, 06:43:06 PM
At Matthew 12, Jesus says: "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."(Matt 12:31, 32) Thus, as recorded by Mark, that "whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin."(Mark 3:29)

Because the Jewish religious leaders saw the outworking of God's holy spirit by the miracles that Jesus performed, and yet denied this, Jesus said that these had ' blasphemed against the holy spirit ', resulting in their never being forgiven. At John 8, because of their being obstinate, unyielding, though massive evidence is before them that he is the promised Messiah, Jesus tells the Pharisees: "You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Therefore I said to you, you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins."(John 8:23, 24)

Many of the Jewish religious leaders saw firsthand many of the miracles that Jesus carried out by means of the holy spirit (Mark 2:1-12), but stubbornly refused to accept this as convincing evidence of his being the Christ. As a result, Jesus said that their sins would never be forgiven, so that when they died, these would have no hope a resurrection from the dead, or they would remain dead forever, being cast into symbolic Gehenna or everlasting destruction.(Matt 23:15, 33)

So, I assume you do not believe in UR...but some form of annihilation?

The Bible does not teach universal salvation, for that would mean even Satan and his demons would have opportunity to continue living. Yet their judgment has long been reserved.(Gen 3:15; Matt 25:41; Rev 20:10) God's love is conditional, having limitations, for those before the global flood were given warning through Noah that God was to bring that "generation" to ruin because of its wickedness and violence (Gen 6:7, 13), with the wicked angelic "sons of God" and their offspring, the Nephilim, greatly adding to the violent behavior that existed then.(Gen 6:4)

The apostle Peter wrote: "Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment; and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; and by reducing the cities Sod´om and Go·mor´rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come."(2 Pet 2:4-6)

Jesus also says: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."(Matt 7:13, 14) As only eight persons survived the global flood, likewise only a "few" will survive the "conclusion of the system of things".(Matt 13:39) Only a "few" are willing to measure up to Jehovah God's holy requirements.

Jesus, in answering the question "are those being saved few", responds: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."(Luke 13:24)

Many will feel that they are pleasing to Jesus, saying: "We ate and drank in front of you, and you taught in our broad ways." (Luke 13:26), but in the illustration, Jesus says, as the "householder": "But he will speak and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness! ' There is where your weeping and the gnashing of your teeth will be, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves thrown outside."(Luke 13:27, 28)

Many, though professing to be Christian, are told by Jesus to "Get away from me", because these have disregarded Jesus words, making them "invalid", with Jesus saying: "It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.'"(Matt 15:9)

At Revelation 19, there is an invitation "to all the birds that fly in midheaven: "Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, that you may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great."(Rev 19:17, 18) This "feast" of the "fleshy parts" by "birds that fly in midheaven" is the result of all the deaths of those who have died during the "war of the great day of God the Almighty" called Armageddon.(Rev 16:14, 16)

Still curious about your take on the link I posted.

Believe or not there is much I would agree with you on.  I suppose where we diverge from common thought is the purpose of judgment.  You see it as punitive and final in nature.  I see it as corrective and consistent with Gods will ( all men be saved ) and his very nature which is agapao.

One must not look as the ultimate reconciliation of all men with whatever God plans for the devil and his angels. They are 2 different things.
The Bible is clear that hell was created for the devil and his angels and that Jesus is the saviour of mankind.
God's angels are curious about human salvation and it's OK to be curious about the fate of the angels that rebelled, but how God deals with the fallen angels is HIS business. Just like how God blesses or not another person and the relationship he has with that person is none of your business. God works and deals with all in an individual relationship which is the only true relationship.

"God, who would have ALL men to be saved" doesn't include anything about the devil or his angels.

Aionion does not mean eternal.  Your concordances are flat out wrong.  They have bought into the 1000+ year hoax of Hell as a place where the person who does not believe in Christ is burned alive forever and ever.

There is a great explanation of aion, aionios, aionion at the Evangelical Univeralist forum.

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2645&hilit=aionion

Here is a relevant post from that thread:

Your argument is based on the false premise that we are inconsistent with our definition of aionios. Some may be, of course, but not all are. For instance, I don't ever translate it "eternal." But if you really want an essay on it, first, like all words, it has a lexical range. It can pertain to a period of time ("lasting for an age" or "characteristic of an age" or "befitting an age"). That's the primary definition we use in Scripture. Zoen aionion is "life befitting the Age to Come[/i] and kolasin aionion is "correction befitting the Age to Come" and pyros aioniou is "fire befitting the Age to Come." None of those, of course, means "eternal" in itself, not because such a thing cannot be eternal, but precisely because no length of time is in view at all. Of particular interest is Jude's reference to Sodom; the fire that burned it up is definitely not still burning!

Now, on the other hand, aionios can refer to things that are more or less permanent. It's used numerous times in the Septuagint of the OT to describe things like "mountains" and "hills" that aren't going anywhere for a while. Obviously, in these circumstances it's not a proper "eternity" in view, either, but in this case, it does pertain to length of time, whereas in the previous circumstance, it doesn't. Once again, the word does not actually preclude complete permanence/eternality; it simply doesn't require it.

Aionios can, in some literature, refer to the idea of being "properly" eternal. In classical Greek it held this meaning. Plato used it to describe a timeless reality, without future or past, but among Koine speakers, that understanding is exceedingly rare, and for first-century Semitic Koine speakers, that idea would have bordered on nonsense unless applied directly to God Himself (on the other hand, for a classically trained, Gentile Church Father some centuries later, such as Jerome or Augustine, that idea would have appeared quite sensible).

To boil it all down, there is a qualitative sense of aionios that we find in most of its usages in the New Testament. Clearly zoen aionion is not about the length of life, but about the kind or quality of it--the kind of life that can only come from God, that characterizes the Age to Come, etc. On the other hand, kolasin or olethron aionion ought to be taken the same way: not about the length of time that the correction or destruction will last, but the sort of thing it is. It's the kind of correction or destruction that can only come from God, that will mark out the Age to Come. It is the Correction of the Age.

Now, earlier you cited John 6:47, asking if it meant "everlasting life" or "life of God" or what. Let me suggest N. T. Wright's rendering, noting also that he is not only a passive non-Universalist but has actually written against UR:

"I'm telling you the solemn truth," Jesus went on. "Anyone who believes in me has the life of God's coming age."

Why did he render it like that? Because, obviously, the point isn't how long the life lasts; it's the kind of life it is. There are other words to suggest that it lasts forever, such as "immortal"--words never applied to punishment in the New Testament (although, curiously, applied to punishment by Jews that believed in eternal torment outside of the New Testament). Scholarship is only beginning to shake centuries of tradition here. There's a reason why Clement of Alexandria, a Koine Greek-speaking Christian of the second century, did not hear "eternal" in aionios while Jerome, a classically-educated Christian of the fourth century, did.

We ought to be grateful that none of the words that always properly means "lasting forever" is ever applied to eschatological punishment; if it were, we would have a clear-cut contradiction between the Old Testament Prophets who say in no uncertain terms that God does not punish forever and other (hypothetical) passages that say He does. As it is, we don't have such a contradiction because none of the passages regarding eschatological punishment are required to be understood in terms of it actually persisting forever.

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Quote from: CHB on October 27, 2012, 08:20:57 PM

Quote from: jaareshiah on October 27, 2012, 06:43:06 PM
At Matthew 12, Jesus says: "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."(Matt 12:31, 32) Thus, as recorded by Mark, that "whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin."(Mark 3:29)

(Matt. 12:32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, {age} neither in the world {age} to come.

Notice: it says neither in this age, or the age to come. Jesus was speaking of the age he lived in and the age we live in now, not the next age when Christ returns and everyone will be resurrected. The reason he said not in this age or the age to come is, all of these blasphemers he speaks of will remain dead until Christ returns and resurrects them, then they will be forgiven.

Quote from: jaareshiah
Because the Jewish religious leaders saw the outworking of God's holy spirit by the miracles that Jesus performed, and yet denied this, Jesus said that these had ' blasphemed against the holy spirit ', resulting in their never being forgiven. At John 8, because of their being obstinate, unyielding, though massive evidence is before them that he is the promised Messiah, Jesus tells the Pharisees: "You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Therefore I said to you, you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins."(John 8:23, 24)

Many of the Jewish religious leaders saw firsthand many of the miracles that Jesus carried out by means of the holy spirit (Mark 2:1-12), but stubbornly refused to accept this as convincing evidence of his being the Christ. As a result, Jesus said that their sins would never be forgiven, so that when they died, these would have no hope a resurrection from the dead, or they would remain dead forever, being cast into symbolic Gehenna or everlasting destruction.(Matt 23:15, 33)

No, he said only in the age that thay were living in and the age we are living in. When Christ returns and everyone is resurrected and is taught of God, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and God will eventually be all in all.

One thing was, Jesus had not been crucified at that time and that is why he told them they would die in their sins because there was no sacrifice for sins till after Jesus was crucified.

CHB

The Greek word aion means "age" but also has further connotations, for as R. C. Trench states in Synonyms of the New Testament (London, 1961, p. 203): "Thus signifying time, it comes presently to signify all which exists in the world under conditions of time; . . . and then, more ethically, the course and current of this world's affairs."

Hence the Greek word aion has a broader meaning than just "age", but can refer more particularly to the consistent state of things or the current state of affairs or features that distinguish a certain period of time, epoch, or age rather than to the matter of time itself, and can therefore be rendered as "system of things", involving an epoch of time.

Hence, at Matthew 12:31, 32, Jesus contrasts those who are "forgiven", such as 'speaking a word against the son of man" with those who "speaks against the holy spirit" and are not forgiven, "no, not in this system of things ("system of things", Greek aion), nor in that to come." Their "sin remains".(John 9:41)

Once dead, those who sin against the holy spirit, never receive a resurrection, for just as "the unforgiving slave" was thrown into prison until he could off his massive debt to the king (and in prison he could not, thus remaining there forever, Matt 18:34, with him owing the king [at today's silver value, 10/27/12], $238 million dollars), so Jesus stated: "In like manner my heavenly Father will also deal with you if you do not forgive each one his brother from your hearts."(Matt 18:35)

Seed of Adam Vindicated Eternally

Quote from: Jeremias on October 27, 2012, 09:23:26 PM
Aionion does not mean eternal.  Your concordances are flat out wrong.  They have bought into the 1000+ year hoax of Hell as a place where the person who does not believe in Christ is burned alive forever and ever.

There is a great explanation of aion, aionios, aionion at the Evangelical Univeralist forum.

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2645&hilit=aionion

Here is a relevant post from that thread:

Your argument is based on the false premise that we are inconsistent with our definition of aionios. Some may be, of course, but not all are. For instance, I don't ever translate it "eternal." But if you really want an essay on it, first, like all words, it has a lexical range. It can pertain to a period of time ("lasting for an age" or "characteristic of an age" or "befitting an age"). That's the primary definition we use in Scripture. Zoen aionion is "life befitting the Age to Come[/i] and kolasin aionion is "correction befitting the Age to Come" and pyros aioniou is "fire befitting the Age to Come." None of those, of course, means "eternal" in itself, not because such a thing cannot be eternal, but precisely because no length of time is in view at all. Of particular interest is Jude's reference to Sodom; the fire that burned it up is definitely not still burning!

Now, on the other hand, aionios can refer to things that are more or less permanent. It's used numerous times in the Septuagint of the OT to describe things like "mountains" and "hills" that aren't going anywhere for a while. Obviously, in these circumstances it's not a proper "eternity" in view, either, but in this case, it does pertain to length of time, whereas in the previous circumstance, it doesn't. Once again, the word does not actually preclude complete permanence/eternality; it simply doesn't require it.

Aionios can, in some literature, refer to the idea of being "properly" eternal. In classical Greek it held this meaning. Plato used it to describe a timeless reality, without future or past, but among Koine speakers, that understanding is exceedingly rare, and for first-century Semitic Koine speakers, that idea would have bordered on nonsense unless applied directly to God Himself (on the other hand, for a classically trained, Gentile Church Father some centuries later, such as Jerome or Augustine, that idea would have appeared quite sensible).

To boil it all down, there is a qualitative sense of aionios that we find in most of its usages in the New Testament. Clearly zoen aionion is not about the length of life, but about the kind or quality of it--the kind of life that can only come from God, that characterizes the Age to Come, etc. On the other hand, kolasin or olethron aionion ought to be taken the same way: not about the length of time that the correction or destruction will last, but the sort of thing it is. It's the kind of correction or destruction that can only come from God, that will mark out the Age to Come. It is the Correction of the Age.

Now, earlier you cited John 6:47, asking if it meant "everlasting life" or "life of God" or what. Let me suggest N. T. Wright's rendering, noting also that he is not only a passive non-Universalist but has actually written against UR:

"I'm telling you the solemn truth," Jesus went on. "Anyone who believes in me has the life of God's coming age."

Why did he render it like that? Because, obviously, the point isn't how long the life lasts; it's the kind of life it is. There are other words to suggest that it lasts forever, such as "immortal"--words never applied to punishment in the New Testament (although, curiously, applied to punishment by Jews that believed in eternal torment outside of the New Testament). Scholarship is only beginning to shake centuries of tradition here. There's a reason why Clement of Alexandria, a Koine Greek-speaking Christian of the second century, did not hear "eternal" in aionios while Jerome, a classically-educated Christian of the fourth century, did.

We ought to be grateful that none of the words that always properly means "lasting forever" is ever applied to eschatological punishment; if it were, we would have a clear-cut contradiction between the Old Testament Prophets who say in no uncertain terms that God does not punish forever and other (hypothetical) passages that say He does. As it is, we don't have such a contradiction because none of the passages regarding eschatological punishment are required to be understood in terms of it actually persisting forever.

snitzelhoff
     
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What "our definition of aionios" is of no concern, but what the Bible has accurately established. At Matthew 25, Jesus said concerning those who did not assist his "brothers": "'Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.' And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off ("everlasting cutting-off ", Greek kolasin aionion), but the righteous ones into everlasting life."("everlasting life", Greek zoe aionion, Matt 25:45, 46)

Jesus contrasts those who failed in their assisting Jesus "brothers" ( those chosen by Jehovah God (2 Thess 2:13) who, along with him, make up the "kingdom of God"), with "the righteous ones" who are granted "everlasting life", those who assisted Jesus "brothers" at Matthew 25:40. Just as life contrasts with death, light with dark, so both receive something that is "everlasting", a permanent "cutting-off " from life for both "the Devil and his angels" and those who lifted no hand of help towards Jesus "brothers" and those who provided both material and spiritual help to Jesus "brothers", giving them "everlasting life".

The Greek interlinear, The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, reads at Matthew 25:46: "And shall go away these into a cutting-off (ko´la·sin) agelasting; the and just ones into life everlasting." Thus, those that God deems as unworthy of life everlasting, are then "cut-off " from life, receiving everlasting death.

The Emphatic Diaglott footnote for this verse reads: "That is, in the fire mentioned in verse 41. The Common Version (King James Bible), and in many modern ones, render kolasin aionioon, everlasting punishment, conveying the idea, as generally interpreted, of basimos, torment. Kolasin in its various forms only occurs in three other places in the New Testament - Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9; 1 John 4:18. It is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. The Greeks write - "The charioteer (kalazei) restrains his fiery steeds". 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment; - hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word....The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death."(italics theirs)

Looking at that link...a poster said eternal means without beginning or end.  That isn't always true.  It can mean without beginning or end...or merely mean endless.  It does UR a great injustice when some posters stretch things to fit a belief system.

Right Shawn. The word "eternal" is only correvtly applied to God since He had no beginning and will have no end. In fact, God brought everything into existence so everything else has a beginning and everything else will have an end. That's why Jesus is the alpha and the Omega, the first and the last.
Cause and effect. Everything is the effect, God was the first cause.

Ded I'm saying the exact opposite.  Eternal doesn't have to mean without beginning or end.  It can mean that but doesn't always mean that.

Quote from: jaareshiah on October 27, 2012, 10:10:24 PM

What "our definition of aionios" is of no concern, but what the Bible has accurately established. At Matthew 25, Jesus said concerning those who did not assist his "brothers": "'Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.' And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off ("everlasting cutting-off ", Greek kolasin aionion), but the righteous ones into everlasting life."("everlasting life", Greek zoe aionion, Matt 25:45, 46)

Jesus contrasts those who failed in their assisting Jesus "brothers" ( those chosen by Jehovah God (2 Thess 2:13) who, along with him, make up the "kingdom of God"), with "the righteous ones" who are granted "everlasting life", those who assisted Jesus "brothers" at Matthew 25:40. Just as life contrasts with death, light with dark, so both receive something that is "everlasting", a permanent "cutting-off " from life for both "the Devil and his angels" and those who lifted no hand of help towards Jesus "brothers" and those who provided both material and spiritual help to Jesus "brothers", giving them "everlasting life".

The Greek interlinear, The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, reads at Matthew 25:46: "And shall go away these into a cutting-off (ko´la·sin) agelasting; the and just ones into life everlasting." Thus, those that God deems as unworthy of life everlasting, are then "cut-off " from life, receiving everlasting death.

The Emphatic Diaglott footnote for this verse reads: "That is, in the fire mentioned in verse 41. The Common Version (King James Bible), and in many modern ones, render kolasin aionioon, everlasting punishment, conveying the idea, as generally interpreted, of basimos, torment. Kolasin in its various forms only occurs in three other places in the New Testament - Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9; 1 John 4:18. It is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. The Greeks write - "The charioteer (kalazei) restrains his fiery steeds". 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment; - hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word....The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death."(italics theirs)

I agree.  Let's look at what the bible has accurately established.

From the EU Forum:

Quote from: dirtboyIf I were going to translate the "eternal" passages in the scriptures concerning the duration of hell, what would I do?  What would be my methodology?  First, when translating scripture, I understand that scripture needs to agree with other scripture.  If I come across a word that could be translated one of two ways and one way makes it contradict scripture while the other one fits harmoniously, it would be my duty to translate the passage according to the rules of grammar and in accordance with the harmony of scripture.  For example, grammar allows John 1:1 to be translated "a god", but context does not (non trinitarians will disagree, but that is not the point of this post.  You can come up with your own example - I think you understand the point).   Both must be taken into account when translating the Greek and Hebrew scriptures.

When we come to the word "aionios" there can be no doubt that it can be translated in both an "eternal" and "non-eternal" (see Romans 16:25; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2)sense.  Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words affirms this (as well as many other legitimate conservative sources, such as my NASB bible), but emphasizes that the vast majority of times in scripture it means "eternal".  Aionios can be a complicated word, but for sake of simplicity, let's say we would use "eternal" for the one side, and "lasting" [for an age] for the other side (or "pertaining to an age" but we'll use "lasting" for simplicity).  There is another reason we are given to translate it as "eternal".  We are told that since, in Matthew 25:46, when Jesus is talking about the sheep's and the goats, he ascribes aionios life to the sheep's and aionios punishment to the goats.  It is argued that these are parallel and therefore they must use the same definition.  Since we know that heaven is eternal, then the meanings must be the same in both phrases.  Is this the case?  Would translating it "eternal" contradict scripture?  It is my firm conviction that translating "aionios" as eternal in this and other such passages of scripture directly contradicts what God has consistently revealed about himself in the testimony of the rest of scripture.

It is clear from scripture that the heart of God desires to save mankind.  Whether or not you agree with universal reconciliation, the scriptures declare God's desires clearly:  His love is so intense and powerful that he sent his only son to die for "God so loved the world".   The scripture goes further to say that it is in his heart's desire that ALL men be saved:

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

So God deeply loves and desires to save all of his creatures, though that is not yet a promise that His will will succeed.  God reveals himself in the Old Testament (and new) to be a person who does NOT punish eternally.  This is repeatedly revealed in numerous ways.  As you read through the Old Testament, a pattern, or theme develop about God and punishment of sin.  It angers and disgusts him and he punishes it.  But he always stops.  His anger has an end.  When God was punishing David for the census in 2 Samuel 24, he stopped at 70,000 dead and relented.  It specifies that.  When Jonah was faced with preaching to the Ninevites, he said to God,

"That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity"

Is this true?  Is he a God who relents?  The scriptures affirm it here and in several other places quite clearly that God's punishment never lasts forever.   This is not just my opinion for the scripture bears it out specifically here in Jonah and in other places such as:

Joel 2:13 -  Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity.

This is a characteristic of God, not merely a rare action.  I then sought out situations that would refute this but found only more supporting texts.  Going through the book of Jeremiah, God is very vocal about his anger at Israel's sin.  His punishment is severe.  I found several interesting verses about His punishment of them:

Jeremiah 7:20 20"This is what the Almighty LORD says: My anger and fury will be poured out on this place, on humans and animals, and on trees and crops. My anger and fury will burn and not be put out.

Jeremiah 13
14Then I will smash them like bottles against each other. I will smash parents and children together, declares the LORD. I will have no pity, mercy, or compassion when I destroy them.' "

Jeremiah 15
5No one will take pity on you, Jerusalem. No one will mourn for you. No one will bother to ask how you are doing. 6You have left me," declares the LORD. "You have turned your back on me. So I will use my power against you and destroy you.   I'm tired of showing compassion to you.

Jeremiah 17
4You will lose the inheritance that I gave you. I will make you serve your enemies in a land that you haven't heard of. I will do this because you have stirred up the fire of my anger.
It will burn forever.

So there is was - I found the evidence that God's punishment IS permanent and forever.  There were several statements that gave the impression that God's punishment would not end.  It seemed to contradict what I had originally thought about God's punishment.  God said it would be forever.   But wait!  Then came the clincher.  The first one was right after Jeremiah 17 where God said it would "burn forever":

Jeremiah 18
7"At one time I may threaten to tear up, break down, and destroy a nation or a kingdom. 8But suppose the nation that I threatened turns away from doing wrong. Then I will change my plans about the disaster I planned to do to it.

So even after God decides "forever" and proclaims it, His mind can still change.  And then several chapters later the very famous passage in Jeremiah 29:

Jeremiah 29 -
10This is what the LORD says: When Babylon's 70 years are over, I will come to you. I will keep my promise to you and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope. 12'Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. 14'I will be found by you,' declares the LORD, 'and I will restore your fortunes and will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you,' declares the LORD, 'and I will bring you back to the place from where I sent you into exile.'


Even when God made straightforward, unequivocal, seemingly irreversible statements about punishment, he would in fact change his mind because of his compassion because that's the way he is (or the Hebrew "olam" is being mistranslated).  God does NOT punish or remain angry forever!  Look:

Jeremiah 3:4,5 "Have you not just now called to Me, My Father, You are the friend of my youth?  Will He be angry forever?  Will He be indignant to the end?'  Return, faithless Israel,' declares the LORD; I will not look upon you in anger.  For I am gracious,' declares the LORD; 'I will not be angry forever."

Psalms 30:55 For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime";

Psalms 103:9  He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever."

When he said that his anger "would burn forever" in Jeremiah, it was actually seventy years that it lasted for, not eternity.  Eternity, it seems in this case, is seventy years. 

When we get to the New Testament and Jesus supposedly said that God's punishment was going to be "forever", this would be the first time God ever said that punishment would be "forever" and meant it, and it contradicts scripture about "not being angry forever"; "being a God who relents", etc.  He did so a few times in Jeremiah, but did not mean it (it makes you wonder if they translated "olam" correctly when he said his fire would burn forever when he meant for only seventy years?).  He plainly does NOT punish forever and if that is what Jesus was saying, it would be a HUGE non- sequitur because it does not follow how God punishes in the rest of scripture. 

God does not mention eternal hell in Genesis at the beginning or after Adam and Eve's sin; or at the giving of the law and the various punishments and consequences of disobedience throughout the Old Testament.  God details punishment quite a bit in the O.T. but he never tells his people that his punishment for sin is eternal punishment.  Instead he continuously presents himself as someone who is patient, forgiving, and, after punishing sin, he wants to reconcile.  He is one who relents concerning punishment.  He is portrayed as someone whose loving-kindness lasts forever and whose anger is for only a short time, not the other way around.  Love, it is said, never fails.  He asks us to continue to forgive again and again, and he asks us to love our enemies, NOT just our enemies who become Christians.  Then, all of the sudden, we are to believe that God stops forgiving and punishes forever, for the first time in scripture opposed to dozens and dozens of scriptures to the contrary.  In other words, there is NO larger context in which we can determine that God punishes endlessly and eternally.  It simply is not there no matter where you look. 

Therefore, when I come to "aionios", I see how God deals with his wrath throughout scripture, I understand that God is not one who is angry forever and he is one who relents concerning wrath and punishment.  I would be foolish and wrong to say, "It must mean eternal" because that is not how God has revealed himself in the scriptures.  To say that hell is eternal contradicts scripture as a whole and I challenge anyone to find a scripture outside of "aionios" that indicates that God's punishment of sin is eternal.  I've not yet found any such scripture or scriptural principle though I've found the opposite again and again!  I simply cannot fathom how this can have been missed because the scripture are so consistently and repetitively clear throughout.  Therefore, the argument that aionios has to be translated "eternal" because it is a parallel in the sheep and goats simply holds no water.

a : having infinite duration : everlasting <eternal damnation>
b : of or relating to eternity
c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God <good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? — Mark 10:17(Revised Standard Version)>
2
a : continued without intermission : perpetual <an eternal flame>
b : seemingly endless <eternal delays>
3
archaic : infernal <some eternal villain ... devised this slander — Shakespeare>

Sorry, Shawn, misunderstood you. What I was trying to say was that unless the word is used specifically in reference to God, it does not and cannot mean never ending or without end.
For God alone is eternal - without beginning or end - outside of time itself - neverending.

Quote from: shawn on October 27, 2012, 10:40:06 PM
Ded I'm saying the exact opposite.  Eternal doesn't have to mean without beginning or end.  It can mean that but doesn't always mean that.

I think Eternal does mean without a beginning or end but aion does not. Eternal, everlasting, forever, all mean without a beginning or end.

CHB

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 27, 2012, 10:50:37 PM
Sorry, Shawn, misunderstood you. What I was trying to say was that unless the word is used specifically in reference to God, it does not and cannot mean never ending or without end.
For God alone is eternal - without beginning or end - outside of time itself - neverending.

Ahh gotcha.

Quote from: CHB on October 27, 2012, 11:02:33 PM

Quote from: shawn on October 27, 2012, 10:40:06 PM
Ded I'm saying the exact opposite.  Eternal doesn't have to mean without beginning or end.  It can mean that but doesn't always mean that.

I think Eternal does mean without a beginning or end but aion does not. Eternal, everlasting, forever, all mean without a beginning or end.

CHB

It can but doesn't always.

Quote from: shawn on October 27, 2012, 10:40:06 PM
Ded I'm saying the exact opposite.  Eternal doesn't have to mean without beginning or end.  It can mean that but doesn't always mean that.

I think Eternal does mean without a beginning or end but aion does not. Eternal, everlasting, forever, all mean without a beginning or end.

My understanding is, the words eternal, forever, everlasting were used instead of the words aion aionios, olam. The greek word aion or olam should never be translated as forever, everlasting, or eternal. The word forever should be used only as a figure of speech. "It took me forever to do that". Or I waited in line forever".

CHB

I'm wit you CHB  :thumbsup:

 I said before....it serves no purpose to say God's wrath is not wrath with the et'ers....His spirit

   apply's curses/wrath to appropriate receivers..satan and evil spirits...and mercy to man/kingdom.......

   as each man has bore the corrupt image..so,too..each shall bear the incorruptible.

   are there men appointed to serve as ' example's' of the twice dead? yes   JUDE 1;7......

   THEY SERVE AS AN" EXAMPLE" OF THOSE WHO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE[prepared

  for the devil ]   thus 'ignoble' use.

    in the very same way......as demons...these  dreamers pollute their own bodies...reject authority..and

slander celestial beings[angels? holy spirits? sspirits of just men made perfect? Blasphemy against

  holy spirit?]  Slander =blasphemy........BUT EVEN WHEN MICHAEL WAS DISPUTING WITH THE DEVIL

  ABOUT THE BODY OF MOSES..HE DARED NOT BRING A SLANDEROUS ACCUSATION AGAINST HIM

  BUT SAID..'THE LORD REBUKE YOU"

  Rev 12'7  and there was war in heaven,Michael and his angels fought against the dragon...

and the dragon and his angels fought back...But he was not strong enough..and they lost their place

  in heaven....

    THEN I HEARD A LOUD VOICE....NOW HAVE COME THE SALVATION AND POWER AND KINGDOM

OF OUR GOD.........FOR...THE..ACCUSOR..OF  OUR BROTHERS...WHO ACCUSE THEM..DAY..

  AND NIGHT HAS BEEN HURLED DOWN.[THERE YOU HAVE THE SLANDERER/THE BLASPHEMER

  THAT SINS AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT..........................IT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE ADVERSARY...

  THE ANTI-CHRIST SPIRIT..THE SLANDERERS SPIRIT..THE BLASPHEMER OF WHAT IS HOLY SPIRIT]

   NOW..YOU CAN'T SEE THIS SPIRIT...EXCEPT THAT IT BE MANIFEST IN MEN THAT ARE BEARING

  THE CORRUPT IMAGE...THUS jUDE CH 1

   THE TRUE IDENTITY OF THE MAN OF SIN/LAWLESSNESS IS TO BE REVEALED......WE KNOW IT

  LIKE THIS...DRAGON WHEN OPERATING ON ANGELS IN HEAVEN..SERPENT IN THE GARDEN.....

  BEAST WHEN RULING OVER KINGDOMS OF EARTH,SATAN WHEN IT ENTERED JUDAS...

  MAN OF SIN/SON OF PERDITION  THAT IS DONE AWAY WITH AT THE BREATH OF HIS COMING

  THIS CORRUPT BODY OF DEATH WE NEED BE SAVED FROM[SIN IN FLESH]
 

     

Quote from: sheila on October 27, 2012, 11:35:30 PM
I said before....it serves no purpose to say God's wrath is not wrath with the et'ers..     

sheila, earlier today I was driving along and for some reason thought of God's "wrath".  I grew up in hell-fire brimstone, and it's still a little hard for me to see God's love and mercy as complete and all-encompassing as it really is [I'm not saying there's no discipline or correction, I believe there is, but not that it's retribution, but love.  A love and way that we mostly just can't grasp IMO].  The thought went through my head today about having heard in the past that God's wrath is different in the originals than our Dark Ages and Western mindset have come to see it as.  Oh yeah, I was humming the song that says about the crucifixion, "the wrath of God was satisfied".  I was like "what was God mad about"?  I remembered hearing the description of God's wrath as being His passion, a stronger desire and intent than we can even imagine - rather than just somehow He has just got to "get us".   :2c:

Good stuff!!

  O YES,JC He is passionate in His LOVE FOR MANKIND...HE IS JEALOUS IN HIS LOVE TO PROTECT

  AND SAVE.   does the 'tool' lift itself up against He who wields it?......

    when the stones of the temple and it's timbers are brought togather for assembly...there is no

  sound of a tool or axe[tool to the firepit]

   no weapon formed against you shall suceed.......

    His wrath is against the kingdom of darkness...whose works are wicked...He come to save man

  and deliver him from the wicked one[pray this way...deliver us from evil]

Back to the original question of "is there a greek word for eternity"
Apparently not - at least not exactly. Here are what scholars say:

Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46). Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).
Hasting's Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting—nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370)
Jeremy Taylor, a world famous Protestant hell-fire advocate wavers, and after his ebullient flashes of Systematic Hellology, he is constrained to the following modification in Jeremy Taylor's Works (vol. 3, p. 43): "Though the fire is everlasting, not all that enters it is everlasting," then adds, "The word everlasting signifies only to the end of its period." Would that other hell-fire advocates were so honest.
The large Catholic Bible dictionary, The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible (p. 693): ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gen. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as "forever," means in itself no more than 'for an indefinitely long period." Thus me olam does not mean "from eternity" but "of old" Gen. 6:4; etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam. (Note: even the Catholic translators of The Jerusalem Bible and The New American Bible have failed to heed the scholarship of their own Catholic authorities.)
Saint Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastema, "an eonian interval." How many intervals do you know of that are "endless" or "eternal?"

Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2012, 12:12:44 AM
  O YES,JC He is passionate in His LOVE FOR MANKIND...HE IS JEALOUS IN HIS LOVE TO PROTECT

  AND SAVE.   does the 'tool' lift itself up against He who wields it?......

    when the stones of the temple and it's timbers are brought togather for assembly...there is no

  sound of a tool or axe[tool to the firepit]

   no weapon formed against you shall suceed.......

    His wrath is against the kingdom of darkness...whose works are wicked...He come to save man

  and deliver him from the wicked one[pray this way...deliver us from evil]

:thumbsup:

Quote from: CHB on October 27, 2012, 11:14:41 PM

Quote from: shawn on October 27, 2012, 10:40:06 PM
Ded I'm saying the exact opposite.  Eternal doesn't have to mean without beginning or end.  It can mean that but doesn't always mean that.

I think Eternal does mean without a beginning or end but aion does not. Eternal, everlasting, forever, all mean without a beginning or end.

My understanding is, the words eternal, forever, everlasting were used instead of the words aion aionios, olam. The greek word aion or olam should never be translated as forever, everlasting, or eternal. The word forever should be used only as a figure of speech. "It took me forever to do that". Or I waited in line forever".

CHB

You can look up the word eternal in any English dictionary to say otherwise.  I'm not speaking about the Hebrew or the Greek...or even the context...just pure English definitions. 

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/otkillergod.htm

Good link about wrath.  I don't agree with everything in this link, because I do believe God punishes in a corrective nature but good stuff none the less.  Here is a good excerpt...

The first problem we must address is that the translators have taken great license with the translation of various words in the Bible. "Wrath" and "anger" are no exceptions.


In the New Testament, two Greek words are both translated "wrath." They are orge (#3709 in Strong's Concordance) which means desire, or violent passion and thumos (#2372) which means passion, breathing hard, or fury.


The translations in the Old Testament are much more varied. Each number on the right in the list below is for a different Hebrew word. But they ALL are translated "wrath." The Hebrew language is very precise. Each word has a specifically different meaning. This shows that the translators arbitrarily chose to translate all of these different words as "wrath." But they do NOT all mean wrath


The Hebrew word aph (#639) means rapid breathing in passion.


Chemah (#2534) is defined as hot with passion


Ebrah (#5678) means outburst of passion


Qetseph (#7110) means, literally, a splinter or "chipped off". Freely translated it means to be displeased, to fret or possibly to burst out.


Kaac (#3707) - to be grieved or sorrowful, to be troubled.


All these words have specific meanings which denote a passionate displeasure or a sorrowful troubled spirit, yet they are ALL translated "wrath." This, of course, makes God appear violent, frightening and vengeful, apparently the way the translators chose to present God to the world, a "ferocious" God that agrees with their own theology. A more accurate translation is that God is passionately sorrowful or troubled.



God, Himself, Defines His "Wrath."


Human beings define wrath as "intense anger, rage fury, vengeance" according to Webster's New World Dictionary. But God defines His wrath in a totally different way.


Look at Romans 1:18: "For the wrath (Greek word orge) of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold (suppress) the truth in unrighteousness." Then verses 24, 26 and 28 tell us how God demonstrates His wrath:


Verse 24: "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves."


Verse 26: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections; for even their women did change (exchange) the natural use into (for) that which is against nature."


Verse 28: "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate (debased) mind, to do those things which are not convenient (fitting)."


So we see that God's wrath is just giving us up to our own sinful ways to reap what we have sown. He doesn't punish us. He doesn't harm us in any way. He just let's us go the way we have chosen. We then punish ourselves by our wrong decisions.


God has given us the 10 Commandments as a guide for our life. He says that if we obey them, our lives will be easier and happier. If we don't obey them, our lives will be harder and more sorrowful - - - NOT because He's going to punish us, but because the natural result of our actions and behavior will bring us sorrow and pain.


When our children were young, we warned them not to play in the street. We didn't say, "If you play in the street, I'll kill you." No, we said "I love you and I don't want to see you hurt. If you play in the street, you might be injured or killed."


It's the same with God. He says, "I love you and I want your life to be happy and healthy. If you don't obey the guidelines I have given you, I won't punish you, but you will punish yourselves by bringing on yourselves the results of your behavior. You will reap what you have sown."

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 28, 2012, 12:19:31 AM
Back to the original question of "is there a greek word for eternity"
Apparently not - at least not exactly. Here are what scholars say:

Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46). Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).
Hasting's Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting—nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370)
Jeremy Taylor, a world famous Protestant hell-fire advocate wavers, and after his ebullient flashes of Systematic Hellology, he is constrained to the following modification in Jeremy Taylor's Works (vol. 3, p. 43): "Though the fire is everlasting, not all that enters it is everlasting," then adds, "The word everlasting signifies only to the end of its period." Would that other hell-fire advocates were so honest.
The large Catholic Bible dictionary, The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible (p. 693): ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gen. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as "forever," means in itself no more than 'for an indefinitely long period." Thus me olam does not mean "from eternity" but "of old" Gen. 6:4; etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam. (Note: even the Catholic translators of The Jerusalem Bible and The New American Bible have failed to heed the scholarship of their own Catholic authorities.)
Saint Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastema, "an eonian interval." How many intervals do you know of that are "endless" or "eternal?"

Great post.

The word "eternal" can be applied to more than just God, for even the mountains are spoken of as being "eternal" at Habakkuk 3:6, saying: "And the eternal (Hebrew adh' ) mountains got to be smashed; the indefinitely lasting ("indefinitely lasting", Hebrew ohlam) hills bowed down. The walkings of long ago are his."

And of the rebellious angels, including Satan, Jude wrote that Jehovah God has "reserved with eternal (Greek aidiois) bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day."(Jude 6) This is the same Greek word that the apostle Paul used at Romans 1:20 with regard to God, saying that "even his eternal (Greek aidiois ) power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable."

From jaareshiah
"The word "eternal" can be applied to more than just God, for even the mountains are spoken of as being "eternal" at Habakkuk 3:6, saying: "And the eternal (Hebrew adh' ) mountains got to be smashed; the indefinitely lasting ("indefinitely lasting", Hebrew ohlam) hills bowed down. The walkings of long ago are his."

Of course eternal is used here as a figure of speech. Compared to the lifespan of a man they would certainly seem so. But we all know the Bible says these mountains will disappear so are not eternal.
Like when the Bible says, "God owns the cattle on 1,000 hills" it is again a figure of speech. God owns the cattle on 1,001 hills, on 1,002 hills, etc. basically ALL the hills. Why didn't it say ALL that the first time?
You surely don't think the hills actually bowed down did you?
The Bible and science are pretty clear. NOTHING CREATED can last forever, so wherever the Bible uses the word eternal and it is NOT in reference to God, they mean a comparatively lomg time.

Shawn wrote and I agree

So we see that God's wrath is just giving us up to our own sinful ways to reap what we have sown. He doesn't punish us. He doesn't harm us in any way. He just let's us go the way we have chosen. We then punish ourselves by our wrong decisions.

IMO All of nature is continually.
all of natural science is continually correcting Man in his inability to sow
that which will bring about an everlasting environment of peace and sanctuary.

All of creation moans.
When we reflect upon certain situations and we believe God is.
When I am convinced that I am a child of God I think as a child
that his correction might be a punishment.

When I am aware that I am on longer a child, but now an heir.
I have instruction from the Holy Spirit that leads.
Erring on my part now, can be used  to build an experiential data pass or resource
that I will using when judging the Angels.
     
       

Quote from: dajomaco

Shawn wrote and I agree

So we see that God's wrath is just giving us up to our own sinful ways to reap what we have sown. He doesn't punish us. He doesn't harm us in any way. He just let's us go the way we have chosen. We then punish ourselves by our wrong decisions.

Wouldn't that be like putting your 2 year old in a room full of all sorts of harmful things and say "if you eat poision and die it's your fault"?

CHB

Quote from: CHB on October 28, 2012, 07:28:19 PM

Quote from: dajomaco

Shawn wrote and I agree

So we see that God's wrath is just giving us up to our own sinful ways to reap what we have sown. He doesn't punish us. He doesn't harm us in any way. He just let's us go the way we have chosen. We then punish ourselves by our wrong decisions.

Wouldn't that be like putting your 2 year old in a room full of all sorts of harmful things and say "if you eat poision and die it's your fault"?

CHB

If the ending was ET...I would agree...deck stacked against us...here is a knife don't kill yourself with it.

But, those who believe UR should have a different perspective.  If God uses these methods to educate all humans, who are we to question?  I see punishment as spiritual education.  How much education we need depends highly on how stubbornly we are rooted in our sin.  They come in the natural form of consequences.  When a child touches a hot stove...they learn not to do that again.  While I may have told my child not to touch the stove...their disobedience disciplined them through consequence.

It seems to me that God has allowed broken, frail, fleshly people to navigate a world set up to educate our spirits.  Even the food we want to eat isn't good for us much of the time.  I want bacon cheese burgers and milk shakes...but my ever enlarging belly tells me I need to eat in moderation...and to mix in some healthy items.  Even my diet teaches me the spiritual principle of moderation and self discipline.

The hole, the emptiness teaches combined with my inability to navigate this world without Him teaches me relationship.  It calls me into a partnership with Him, where if my eyes stay focused on Him, and my mind aware of His lessons hidden through daily living...I become perfected even as I'm am perfect through faith in Christ.

Today this is how I see things...ask me tomorrow it may be quite different :)

Quote from: shawn
It seems to me that God has allowed broken, frail, fleshly people to navigate a world set up to educate our spirits.  Even the food we want to eat isn't good for us much of the time.  I want bacon cheese burgers and milk shakes...but my ever enlarging belly tells me I need to eat in moderation...and to mix in some healthy items.  Even my diet teaches me the spiritual principle of moderation and self discipline.

I agree God is teaching us the consequences of good and evil. He is letting us experience both to learn from. He is the one who gave us both and he is the one who determines how much, when, and if we experience it.

If we are in control of all that, it seems funny that we can't control our appetites, our actions, etc. Why do we eat or drink stuff that we know is not good for us?  I think it is not in us, not meant for us to control these things otherwise we couldn't learn anything from them.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on October 28, 2012, 09:05:10 PM

Quote from: shawn
It seems to me that God has allowed broken, frail, fleshly people to navigate a world set up to educate our spirits.  Even the food we want to eat isn't good for us much of the time.  I want bacon cheese burgers and milk shakes...but my ever enlarging belly tells me I need to eat in moderation...and to mix in some healthy items.  Even my diet teaches me the spiritual principle of moderation and self discipline.

d

I agree God is teaching us the consequences of good and evil. He is letting us experience both to learn from. He is the one who gave us both and he is the one who determines how much, when, and if we experience it.

If we are in control of all that, it seems funny that we can't control our appetites, our actions, etc. Why do we eat or drink stuff that we know is not good for us?  I think it is not in us, not meant for us to control these things otherwise we couldn't learn anything from them.

CHB

I think you are just one step away...we learn we can't...exactly the point.  Not only do I experience some of the horrific consequences of my own evil...but I learn that I am utterly incapable.  It's what you call a spiritual bottom.  From that place of brokenness, we learn humility...and from that humility we lean upon God.  We also learn to love those we once judged, as we find we are just as capable of grave evils.  So, from these lessons of consequences...we learn dependence upon God and love for our neighbor.

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 28, 2012, 06:47:32 AM
From jaareshiah
"The word "eternal" can be applied to more than just God, for even the mountains are spoken of as being "eternal" at Habakkuk 3:6, saying: "And the eternal (Hebrew adh' ) mountains got to be smashed; the indefinitely lasting ("indefinitely lasting", Hebrew ohlam) hills bowed down. The walkings of long ago are his."

Of course eternal is used here as a figure of speech. Compared to the lifespan of a man they would certainly seem so. But we all know the Bible says these mountains will disappear so are not eternal.
Like when the Bible says, "God owns the cattle on 1,000 hills" it is again a figure of speech. God owns the cattle on 1,001 hills, on 1,002 hills, etc. basically ALL the hills. Why didn't it say ALL that the first time?
You surely don't think the hills actually bowed down did you?
The Bible and science are pretty clear. NOTHING CREATED can last forever, so wherever the Bible uses the word eternal and it is NOT in reference to God, they mean a comparatively lomg time.

You fail to grasp that the Bible uses figures of speech, play on words such as metaphors, similies, idioms and hyperboles throughout its pages, and in which alphabetic acrostics are also employed such as at Esther 1:20, whereby it says: ""It . . . and all the wives themselves will give." Hi' Wekhol-Han·na·shim′ Yit·tenu′ (Heb.) appears to be a reverse acrostic of the Tetragrammaton, יהוה (YHWH). Three ancient Hebrew manuscrpts are known that give the letters of the divine name here in acrostic in majuscule (large printed) letters, as follows: היא וכל־הנשים יתנו. This is the first of four such acrostics of the name "Jehovah," and the Masorah in a rubric, or in red letters, calls attention to this.

Hence, Bible writers often used figures of speech just as we at times uses particular expressions in order to emphasize a point(s), as for example the "eternal mountains" at Habakkuk 3:6, in which Habakkuk said that when God "stood still, that he might shake up the earth", causing "nations to leap", so that "the eternal mountains got be smashed and the indefinitely lasting hills bowed down" and whereby symbolically "the tent cloths of the land of Midian began to be agitated....With denunciation you went marching [through] the earth. In anger you went threshing [the] nations."(Hab 3:6, 7, 12)

This pictures graphically the "day of Jehovah", portraying the "eternal mountains" as being smashed and bringing low "the indefinitely lasting hills", fitting representations of human organizations that seem so enduring, but that are "smashed" or ' brought low ' during the "great tribulation" in the near future.(Matt 24:15-21)

Of the "day of Jehovah", Amos says that "it will mean darkness, and no light" (Amos 5:18), portraying only a series of deep and death dealing troubles, for Amos continues saying that "just as when a man flees because of the lion, and the bear actually meets him; and [as when] he went into the house and supported his hand against the wall, and the serpent bit him. Will not the day of Jehovah be darkness, and not light; and will it not have gloom, and not brightness?"(Amos 5:19, 20)

Think of a man who flees from a lion and ends up meeting a bear. Running away from the bear, he takes refuge in a house. Panting for breath, he closes the door behind him and leans on the wall, only to be bitten by a snake. In a way, that is the destiny of the ones who are not really ready for the day of Jehovah.

Hence, the Bible is full of expressions, both literal and symbolic, that add meaning and vividness to what the Bible says. Many, though, are unable to "mentally put the pieces together".(meaning of the Greek word syniemi, that Jesus used 6 times at Matthew 13, G4920)

Jaareshiah,
You quoted me as where i said something was a figure of speech and even gave an axample of the Bible using a figure of speech. You then stated outright that I failed to grasp (as if I was stupid) that the bible uses figures of speech.
With all the stuff you said, I didn't see a rebuttal of my main premise(in fact, why quote me at all when it looks like you didn't read it. Since we were talking about eternity, the main premise I made was:
The bible and science are absolutely clear. NOTHING CREATED can last forever.
Based on that fact, whenever the Bible refers to anything other than God (i.e. anything created) it does not and cannot mean literally eternal or eternally.
Truthfully, are you a Jehovah's Witness? You use a lot of their verbiage and are seeming to regurgitate what their leaders tell them. If your not a JW, you ought to read their stuff and see how much they agree with you.
:gimmefive:

The hand of the beginning finds the end.
That which has not begun will never End.

The hand of the end grabs the beginning.
Exploding universe this is the beginning.

There is no bell curve to bend.
Righteousness eternally straight will never bend.

There is a start and an end to all mans sinning.
Lifted up the souls of man Christ is winning.

...God angry...Psalms 18   the Deliverance of David/BELOVED[sure mercies] from Saul...

        from His temple He heard my voice,my cry came into His ears

       the earth trembled and quaked, the foundations of the mountain shook

       they trembled.......BECAUSE.......

        HE WAS ANGRY...................................................

    HE PARTED THE HEAVENS AND COME DOWN...................................HE MADE DARKNESS HIS COVERING

   HIS CANOPY AROUND HIM-THE DARK RAIN CLOUDS OF THE SKY[elijah..end of drought]

  out of the brightness of HIS PRESENCE CLOUDS ADVANCED WITH HAILSTONES AND BOLTS

  OF LIGHTENING..THE LORD THUNDERED.

      HE REACHED DOWN FROM ON HIGH AND TOOK HOLD OF ME......HE DREW ME OUT OF DEEP

     WATERS..........HE RESCUED ME FROM MY POWERFUL ENEMY

    oF JACOB'S TROUBLE..HE SHALL BE SAVED OUT OF IT[DOOR OF HOPE OPENED= NAME CHANGE


     sUPPOSE ONE OF YOU HAS A FRIEND AND HE GOES TO HIM AT MIDNITE AND  SAYS..

  'FRIEND LEND ME THREE LOAVES OF BREAD,BECAUSE A FRIEND OF MINE ON A JOURNEY

   AND I HAVE NOTHING TO SET BEFORE HIM.

    THEN THE ONE INSIDE ANSWERS..'DON'T TROUBLE ME  THE DOOR IS ALREADY LOCKED

  AND MY CHILDREN ARE WITH ME IN BED/REST[SEE PARABLE TEN VIRGINS]

   I CAN'T GET UP AND GIVE YOU ANYTHING.  I TELL YOU THAT THOUGH HE WILL NOT GET UP

  AND GIVE HIM BREAD BECAUSE HE IS A FRIEND,YET BECAUSE HE KEEPS TROUBLING HIM

  HE WILL GET UP AND GIVE HIM AS MUCH AS HE NEEDS

   ASK...SEEK...KNOCK.....THE DOOR WILL BE OPENED..........................

   HOW MUCH MORE YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN

   ISAAIH65;10    THE VALLEY OF ACHOR[TROUBLE] A RESTING PLACE FOR HERDS


  JOEL 2;32  JEREMIAH 15;21  DANIEL 12;1  PSALMS 84;6  2 CHRON 20;26  ISAAIH 65;10

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 29, 2012, 05:38:17 PM
Jaareshiah,
You quoted me as where i said something was a figure of speech and even gave an axample of the Bible using a figure of speech. You then stated outright that I failed to grasp (as if I was stupid) that the bible uses figures of speech.
With all the stuff you said, I didn't see a rebuttal of my main premise(in fact, why quote me at all when it looks like you didn't read it. Since we were talking about eternity, the main premise I made was:
The bible and science are absolutely clear. NOTHING CREATED can last forever.
Based on that fact, whenever the Bible refers to anything other than God (i.e. anything created) it does not and cannot mean literally eternal or eternally.
Truthfully, are you a Jehovah's Witness? You use a lot of their verbiage and are seeming to regurgitate what their leaders tell them. If your not a JW, you ought to read their stuff and see how much they agree with you.
:gimmefive:

I did not mean to imply that you are "stupid", but rather that the meaning of "eternal mountains" is not understood by most at Habakkuk 3, as well throughout the Bible, failing to grasp the significant meanings of the different idioms, figures of speech, metaphors and similes.

Of being able to "mentally put the pieces together" (Greek syniemi) regarding these often symbolic expressions, most are unable to accomplish this.(Matt 13:13, 14) It alludes them, though some profess that they are "wise and intellectual" concerning the Bible, having perhaps a vast storehouse of knowledge.(Matt 11:25)

And concerning that "NOTHING CREATED can last last forever", is not true. At Psalms 37:29, it says that "the righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever ("forever", Hebrew 'ad )." Jesus confirmed this at Matthew 5:5, saying: "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."

And at Psalms 104:5, it says that God "has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite (Hebrew ohlam), or forever (Hebrew 'ad )." Thus, both "meek" or teachable ones and the earth will remain forever, always existing as the "meek" ones inheritance, for God's original purpose of the earth becoming a paradise will be fulfilled.(Luke 23:43)

The meaning of the Hebrew word 'ad is further seen at Psalms 10:16, which says: "Jehovah is King to time indefinite (Hebrew ohlam), even forever (Hebrew 'ad )" as well at Psalms 21:4, in which David writes: "Life he (king David) asked of you. You gave it to him, Length of days to time indefinite (Hebrew ohlam), even forever (Hebrew 'ad )."

David is assured by Jehovah God that he can have "length of days to time indefinite, even forever" by his ever "trusting" in him (Ps 21:7), for during the "thousand year"reign of Jesus Christ in the near future (Rev 20:6), David will the opportunity of being resurrected from the dead and the prospect of living forever on the earth as a "meek" one.(John 5:28, 29)

Of the Hebrew word ohlam, according to Hebrew authority William Gesenius, it means "hidden time, i. e. obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite." And yes, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jaareshiah,
I knew you were. Thank you for being truthful and admitting it. I'll also be truthful and admit to you that20 years ago I was a missionary to the JW's. I know if another JW reads any answer from you that doesn't toe the party line you could be disfellowshipped so I'll understand if you don't answer some of my questions.
I guess I shouldn't have used the word "party" but i didn't mean it like a party "party"

 I was called out of Jehovah's wittness also.

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 29, 2012, 07:32:31 PM
Jaareshiah,
I knew you were. Thank you for being truthful and admitting it. I'll also be truthful and admit to you that20 years ago I was a missionary to the JW's. I know if another JW reads any answer from you that doesn't toe the party line you could be disfellowshipped so I'll understand if you don't answer some of my questions.
I guess I shouldn't have used the word "party" but i didn't mean it like a party "party"

What do you mean by "missionary to the JW's" ?

I ran a support group for people that had been disfellowshipped, had realized the truth about the organization, and or had friends or family members that were still "working" for their salvation through the organization. Whenever someone knew someone that was in JW's they would try to set up an introduction. Most were fearful, some were willing to listen. Some knew the organization was wrong but feared losing family/children and/or friends. The fact that you're here shows that there is the possibility of an open mind unless you're chalking time spent here as you're "witnessing time."

The interesting thing is many many came "out" after doing nothing more than reading even the New World translation rather than the organizations publications and contemplating some questions. (Some I posed earlier)
Statistically, there are four pages of organization literature to read for every 1 page of scripture. I believe I'm one of the few people in the world that has never been a witness but have read the New World translation in it's entirety.
It seems because the "translators" that had almost no knowledge of the greek or Hebrew there was stuff that they missed or didn't realize what they were writing was contradictory and much was left in that STILL pointed to Jesus as God incarnate and our Saviour.

My purpose here is as Jesus said to Pilate: "For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth."(John 18:37) Jesus bore witness to his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, which the churches have hidden his name by supplanting it with either "Lord" or "God", though his name is in the original manuscripts some 7,000 times in the form of the Tetragramatton (Greek meaning "four letters", YHWH)

You are certainly not the 1st person to condemn the New World Translation especially because of the trinity. But myself, having examined it in conjunction with both Hebrew and Greek manuscripts over the years and continues to do so, making sure of its accuracy, considering the inflection of verbs, as well as the tenses, combined with the context and morphology, I have concluded that the New World Translation is indeed accurate, unlike the King James Bible that has bent itself considerably to hide God's name, Jehovah, and mistranslate thousands of words, causing confusion.

Dr. Benjamin Kedar, a Hebrew scholar in Israel, said over 20 years ago: "In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible. Giving evidence of a broad command of the original language, it renders the original words into a second language understandably without deviating unnecessarily from the specific structure of the Hebrew. . . . Every statement of language allows for a certain latitude in interpreting or translating. So the linguistic solution in any given case may be open to debate. But I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain."(quoted in the March 1, 1991 Watchtower)

Following this quotation of Professor Kedar's comments in the above Watchtower article, he received much mail from those who wanted to know if he had been quoted correctly and by those who had a different view point from his. He replied to some, but, from a certain time, sent out a statement instead.(his quotation was upon the agreement that it be quoted in full)

He responded (in 1995): "Since several individuals and institutions have addressed me concerning the following matter, I make this statement; henceforth it will be sent instead of a personal letter to anyone appealing to me to clarify my position.

"1) Several years ago I quoted the so-called New World Translation among several Bible versions in articles that dealt with purely philological [pertaining to the study/science of languages] questions(such as the rendition of the causative hiphil, of the particple qotel). In the course of my comparative studies I found the NWT rather illuminating: it gives evidence of an acute awareness of the structural characteristics of hebrew as well as an honest effort to faithfully render these in the target [English] language. A translation is bound to be a compromise, and as such it's details are open to criticism; this applies to the NWT too. In the portion corresponding to the hebrew Bible, however, I have never come upon an obviously erroneous rendition which would find it's explanation in a dogmatic bias. Repeatedly I have asked the antagonists of the Watchtower-Bible who turned to me for a clarification of my views, to name specific verses for a renewed scrutiny. This was either not done or else the verse submitted (e.g. Genesis 4:13, 6:3, 10:9, 15:5, 18:20 etc.) did not prove the point, namely a tendentious [with a purposed aim/biased] translation."

"2) I beg to make clear that I do not feel any sympathy for any sect and this includes Jehovah's Witnesses. Of course, my mistrust is not directed against the individual member of such sect but rather against the organisation that manipulates him and puts forward its dogmas and rules as the ultimate truth. It should be conceded, however, that the groups and organisations that fiercely oppose the witnesses do not behave any better. On the whole, synagogue, church and mosque also tend to exhibit dogmatic arrogance coupled with intolerance of and enmity with other confessions."

"3) I cannot help expressing my deep conviction that the search for truth will never benefit by linguistic quibble. Whether the author using the word naephaesh denoted 'soul' as opposed to body(Lev 17:11) or meant something else, whether 'almah' means 'virgin' or 'young woman'(Is 7:14) is of great interest to philologists and historians of religion; an argument for or against blood transfusion or the virgin-birth of Jesus respectively, cannot be derived from it."

"4) Obviously, it is man's destiny to make the choice of his way a matter of conscience and to the best of his knowledge. There exists no simple set of rules such as could be learned from the mouth of a guru or the pages of an ancient venerable book. Those who pretend to act according to an infallible guide, more often than not interpret the texts in accordance with their preconceived wishes and notions."

Some seek to undermine the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses.(2 Corinthians 11:13) Rather than simply use the Bible as the basis for true teachings, they concentrate on trying to discredit the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, as if Jehovah's Witnesses were wholly dependent on it for support. But this is not so.

For the best part of a century, the Witnesses used primarily the King James Version, the Roman Catholic Douay Version, or whatever versions were available in their language, to learn the truth about Jehovah and his purposes. And they used these older versions in proclaiming the truth about the condition of the dead, the relationship between God and his Son, and why only a little flock go to heaven.

Informed persons are also aware that Jehovah's Witnesses continue to use many translations of the Bible in their worldwide evangelizing work. Since 1961, however, they have additionally enjoyed the use of the New World Translation, with its updated, accurate translation and fine readability.

Do they believe in salvation by grace alone, through the gift of faith in Yeshua Moschiach and His saving work on the cross [tree/stake] - His shed blood as the all-sufficient sacrifice for our sins? 

If they do, great. 

Paul said he preached the whole counsel of God.  He preached salvation  by faith in Yeshua through His finished work of salvation on the cross [stake/tree].  "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  not of works, lest anyone should boast.  Ephesians 2:8,9

For Christ didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News--and not with clever speech, for fear that the cross of Christ would lose its power.  I Cor. 1:17

If they don't, IMO, that's a grave concern.

But even if ever I, or a Messenger from heaven, should bring a "good message" to you that
goes beyond the one that I have brought to you, a curse upon him!  Galatians 1:8

Jaareshiah,
I'm kinda surprised #2 statement didn't bother you since the man said outright JW's are being manipulated by the organization.
...and I'm not rying to undermine the witnesses, I'm simply encouraging to read the word of God. If you insist on using the New World translation, it's certainly better than the organizations publications.
By the way, I never use the king James version either. Read thru it once and that was enough.
The error in "being witness to the truth" is the organization has told you that "the truth" was evil christians removing the name of Jehovah from the Bible while proclaiming the systematic removal of the name Jesus from their songbooks.
"Being Witness to the truth" would actually mean telling people the good news about salvation through Jesus, the way, the truth, and the life.
I do hope you take some time and contemplate some of the questions I posed earlier in the discussion. If you do though, I will be somewhat surprised as that and Jesus discussions are considered "spiritual pornography" by the organization.

It's possible you may answer Jabcat and his question. You are an unusual witness in that you're even participating in this discussion board and you answered honestly about being a witness.
I didn't ask you if you were a witness to put you down. It was to find out what you're mindset is.
If someone tells me they are a Baptist, Mormon, Church of Christ, Catholic, Methodist, etc. I know what their particular group believes and usually even why. Sometimes, like Mormons, about 70% have almost no idea about some of the "secret doctrines" that the church holds.
I think Jabcat already knows but Witnesses do NOT believe in salvation by grace alone by his shed blood on the cross/torture stake.  They err greatly by believing that verses concerning Jesus are for the 144,00 and not them. (They believe that only 144,000 are going to be with Jesus in heaven) and Jehovah has the organizational plan for them (the rest) here are a few verses from the New World Translation many here are familiar with:

Rom 6:23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting
life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 10:9  9 Foi if you publicly declare that 'word in your own mouth,' that Jesus
is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him
up from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 14:11 11 for it is written: "'As I live,' says Jehovah, 'to me every knee will bend down, and every tongue will
make open acknowledgment to God.' "

Phil 2:09-11   For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior positions and kindly gave him the name that is above
every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Makes me wonder why the made up name of "Jehovah" is considered by Witnesses to be greater than the name Jesus which is above every other name.

But Jehoavh witnesses believe in a restored earth for All. They were one of the first that introduced me to universal salvation.

Although it was the IBS that I read about a part of the watchtowersociety. The witnesses are an ofshhot of this orginization and have changed many of the originaldoctrines.

Quote from: thinktank on October 30, 2012, 07:25:08 PM
But Jehoavh witnesses believe in a restored earth for All. They were one of the first that introduced me to universal salvation.

I don't understand what you're saying tank.  It's my understanding they believe in annihilation for most of humanity, and the restored earth is for jehovah's witnesses that don't "make it to heaven".  I had one say to me once when discussing something,  "I don't want to lose my eternal life".

For me the word eternity, seeing the word is only used once in the whole Bible Isa. 57:15 will remain mostly unexplained without just guessing. Rotherham says "Inhabiting futurity or (progress)" and I am satisfied with that, for me there is nothing to compare it to, except what man's dictionary contends.
I don't believe the Greeks new much about the word "eternity" because they didn't use it, right? (imo)

the Hebrew word "olam" is the word that the Greeks translated to "aion" and then the English translators rendered "forever, eternal, world, age" -kinda whatever they wanted to with little consistency in the new testament

"Ad", the Hebrew word translated forever in Isaiah 57:15 occurs over 50 times in the old testament

ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

In my experience, reading many lexicons, commentaries, dictionaries etc..... there is a lot of disagreement on the exact meanings of these words.

One interesting verse is

"The LORD shall reign forever(olam olam) and ever(ad)."
(Exo 15:18)

The Lord shall reign olam olam ad...."world without end" or "ages without end" or "Unknowable terminus" would all be scholarly translations.


"Olam" for certain, is a word that draws its meaning from context and the subject it is attached to, I think ad may be the same.

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 29, 2012, 11:07:13 PM
I ran a support group for people that had been disfellowshipped, had realized the truth about the organization, and or had friends or family members that were still "working" for their salvation through the organization. Whenever someone knew someone that was in JW's they would try to set up an introduction. Most were fearful, some were willing to listen. Some knew the organization was wrong but feared losing family/children and/or friends. The fact that you're here shows that there is the possibility of an open mind unless you're chalking time spent here as you're "witnessing time."

The interesting thing is many many came "out" after doing nothing more than reading even the New World translation rather than the organizations publications and contemplating some questions. (Some I posed earlier)
Statistically, there are four pages of organization literature to read for every 1 page of scripture. I believe I'm one of the few people in the world that has never been a witness but have read the New World translation in it's entirety.
It seems because the "translators" that had almost no knowledge of the greek or Hebrew there was stuff that they missed or didn't realize what they were writing was contradictory and much was left in that STILL pointed to Jesus as God incarnate and our Saviour.

Those that have been disfellowshipped from Jehovah's Witnesses have shown themselves as unrepentant of the wrongs committed in violation of God's word. Jesus said of a certain situation, that "if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."(Matt 18:15-17)

How did the Jews feel about "a man of the nations" or Gentiles ? Peter told Cornelius: "You well know how unlawful it is for a Jew to join himself to or approach a man of another race; and yet God has shown me I should call no man defiled or unclean."(Acts 10:28) And of "tax collectors" ? They definitely avoided tax collectors, men who were born Jewish but who turned into misusers of the people.(Luke 5:30)

In addition, Jesus said that some would initially accept his words, but would later abandon them when persecution arose. At Matthew 13, Jesus said that "when the sun rose they were scorched, and because of not having root they withered."(Matt 13:6)

Jesus explained what this meant, saying: "As for the one sown upon the rocky places, this is the one hearing the word and at once accepting it with joy. Yet he has no root in himself but continues for a time, and after tribulation or persecution has arisen on account of the word he is at once stumbled."(Matt 13:20, 21)

These then allow others to dissuade them from serving Jehovah God, listening to false reasoning or feeling "the heat" from those who strongly condemn Jehovah's Witnesses. They are "at once stumbled", perhaps now "getting on the bandwagon" and make scathing remarks concerning the Witnesses, saying that they were "mislead". The pressure may be off, but they have then ' disowned the owner that brought them'.(2 Pet 2:1)

Some of these that were formerly Jehovah's Witnesses have ' followed their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth (is)...spoken of abusively", exploiting many with "counterfeit words".(2 Pet 2:2, 3) The apostle Paul wrote that loyal servants of Jehovah God are not to be "mixing in company" with anyone disfellowshipped, "not even eating" with them.(1 Cor 5:11,13)

What you have written assumes that God has given the Jehovah's Witnesses, as an organization, the sole responsibility for carrying the standard of truth, and that fellowship within the context of the Jehovah's Witnesses is the only approved fellowship of God. :director:

Unfortunate. :sigh:

"I will not dwell in a house made of stone" Rather He dwells with those who have a broken and a contrite heart  :HeartThrob:

God knows how men tend to seek power and control over one another. It is a form of wickedness for which He created chaos, so that all our attempts to build little 'towers of Babel' would fail. :punish:

Thank God for it.  :friendstu:

Our house is a "house of prayer for all people". It's builder and maker is God. We are the stones with which it is being built and Jesus is the chief cornerstone- the stone from which all else is aligned. This house has "foundations in the heavens" :cloud9:

It is being built of "living stones", "fitly joined together", "in the bond of peace and the unity of the Spirit"- held fast by the "mortar of brotherly love".  :grouppray:

Their is no earthly organization that can contain our house. Of earthly organizations our Lord says, "Not one stone will be left standing upon another".  :BangHead:

"For freedom Christ has set you free, why submit again to a yoke of bondage?" :bdh:

"If you continue in My Word you shall know the truth, AND THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE"  :dsunny:

Quote from: jaareshiah on November 01, 2012, 02:09:20 AM
..Jehovah's Witnesses..

Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2012, 03:22:41 AM
Do they believe in salvation by grace alone, through the gift of faith in Yeshua Moschiach and His saving work on the cross [tree/stake] - His shed blood as the all-sufficient sacrifice for our sins? 

Paul said he preached the whole counsel of God.  He preached salvation  by faith in Yeshua through His finished work of salvation on the cross [stake/tree].  "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  not of works, lest anyone should boast.  Ephesians 2:8,9

For Christ didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News--and not with clever speech, for fear that the cross of Christ would lose its power.  I Cor. 1:17

But even if ever I, or a Messenger from heaven, should bring a "good message" to you that
goes beyond the one that I have brought to you, a curse upon him!  Galatians 1:8

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 30, 2012, 01:35:51 PM
It's possible you may answer Jabcat and his question. You are an unusual witness in that you're even participating in this discussion board and you answered honestly about being a witness.

I think Jabcat already knows but Witnesses do NOT believe in salvation by grace alone by his shed blood on the cross/torture stake.  They err greatly by believing that verses concerning Jesus are for the 144,00 and not them. (They believe that only 144,000 are going to be with Jesus in heaven) and Jehovah has the organizational plan for them (the rest) here are a few verses from the New World Translation many here are familiar with:

God exalted him to a superior positions and kindly gave him the name that is above
every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Makes me wonder why the made up name of "Jehovah" is considered by Witnesses to be greater than the name Jesus which is above every other name.

I had thought of asking your understanding further, ded,  but I saw your above post tonight. 

Re: Jehovah;  From the Forward of The Christian Bible (1991), one of the most literal translations (from the Koine Greek) available today;

"Jesus vs. Yesu:
The first English Bible to be translated from the Greek (Tyndale's, 1525)
had "Iesu" and "Iesus," while the first edition of the KJV of the Bible(1611) had "Iesus."
Until about the late 1600s "i" and "j" were only
different forms of the same letter; and when this letter was a vowel, it had
either the sound of the "i" in "police" or "pin," while when it was a
consonant, it had the sound of the "y" in "yet." During the 1700s it
became common to separate the two, and to use the "i" for the vowel
sounds, and the "j" for the consonant sound ("yet").
By the early 1800s the "j" had lost its "y" sound and taken on its
present sound, the sound of the soft "g" as in "jet"; and the "y" had lost
its "u" sound ("up") and taken on its present sound, the consonant "i" as
in "yet." So even as late as the 1700s "Iesus" or "Jesus" was pronounced
"Yeh-soos," and not "Gee-zuss" as is popular today.
This name in the Greek has three different spellings, depending
on its case: the nominative case is "Yesus" ("Yeh-soos"); the accusative
case is "Yesun" ("Yeh-soon"); and the vocative, genative, and dative
cases are "Yesu" ("Yeh-sue"). When His first students called to Him,
such as in Mark 10:47, they used the vocative case and said, "Yesu." So
it seems most proper for us to transliterate this name as "Yesu," which is
both the vocative spelling and the root of all three spellings.
In the Old Contract Writings ("Old Testament") God's name in
Hebrew was spelled with four letters (Yodh-He-Waw-He). When using
our alphabet, it is usually transliterated as "YHWH," but since all of
these letters can also be vowels, it could also be transliterated as "IEUE."
Some would say God's name in the Hebrew Writings was "Jehovah" or
"Yahweh," but these are merely [either] ignorant [or] educated corruptions from
the Masoretic tradition. Notice that the second and fourth letters are the
same; so the literal pronunciation of this word is "ee-eh-oo-eh" and is
best spelled as "Yehweh."
With the coming of His Son to the earth, God revealed that He is our
Savior by means of His Son. Also, by this time Jews had refused to ever
say God's name ("Yehweh") out of fear that they might say His name in
vain. So God modified His name to "Yesu" which in Hebrew means
"Yehweh-Savior," and also gave this name to His Son (see John 17:11-12).


from  http://www.bibleprofessor.com/files/Jehovah.pdf
"1. It is possible to combine the vowels of 'Adonay and JHVH and form the nonsense word
Jehovah. This course has been followed by the American Standard Version (1901), seven times
in the King James Version (1611), and by the New World Translation of Jehovah Witnesses.
The only possible argument that can be offered in favor of this approach is that it calls attention to the fact that the personal name for God is being used. Against this approach the following points can be raised.

a. It is unnatural and unscholarly to combine the vowels of the substitute word (the so called qeri) and the consonants of the written word (the so-called ketiv).
b. It is inconsistent to always combine the vowels of 'Adonay with JHVH when in fact
numerous times the vowels of 'Elohim are actually used in the text. If the translators were consistent, the name in these passages should be Jehovih.
c. It is misleading to imply by usage that Jehovah is the name of God when in fact Jehovah is a nonsense name."

Jaareshiah said, "Those that have been disfellowshipped from Jehovah's Witnesses have shown themselves as unrepentant of the wrongs committed in violation of God's word."
You are either unaware or you are intentionally misleading. The only "sin" the unrepentant ones are guilty of is disagreeing witht the organization. One MUST believe (or at least say they beleive) every single doctrine of the JW's to the letter with no exceptions. This even includes doctrine which have changed. (called new light) Because no one is permitted to talk to these disfellowshipped persons, most have no idea WHY the person was disfellowshipped, other than "unrepentant of the wrongs committed in violation of God's word." One of the members of my group was disfellowshipped because he invited some friends over and called it a "party" In witness circles, you can be disfellowshipped for that. However, if you do the same exact thing and call it a "gathering" you're OK.  A mother, 3 doors down from me when I lived in Margate Florida was almost disfellowshipped over allowing her 10 year old daughter to play with my ten year old daughter. The 2 former friends never spoke to each other again and my daughter was to be treated as a disfellowshipped JW even though she had no idea what JW's believed.
The truth is Jaareshiah,
Having the Lord Jehovah Jesus find you and have you born again spiritually from above and have the Holy Spirit come to reside in your body, will get you disfellowshipped so fast your head will spin because you cannot be repentant for entering a love relationship with God rather than the organization.

Heavy.

I forgot to mention. A Jehovah Witness can be caught in adultery or murder or both.
If he escapes Jail and is repentant, he is welcome in the organization.
If a witness confesses that he believes Jesus is God in the flesh and/or that Jesus IS Jehovah and is NOT repentant of what he said, He will be disfellowshipped forever.
To the JW, eternal life is being a member of the Jehovah Witness organization at the time of Armageddon. Not a member, you will be disintegrated for all eternity so one can see why disfellowshipping is a big deal to the average JW.
and by the way, JW's believe that Jesus was NOT resurrected and was not "made alive". They believe the man Jesus is dead, forever dead. They believe Jehovah re-created a being that has all the mind and charateristics of the former Jesus who they also believe is Michael the archangel!

God knows how men tend to seek power and control over one another. It is a form of wickedness for which He created chaos, so that all our attempts to build little 'towers of Babel' would fail.

Wonderfully insightful and very concisely put . :iagree:

Quote from: dajomaco on November 01, 2012, 05:05:29 PM
God knows how men tend to seek power and control over one another. It is a form of wickedness for which He created chaos, so that all our attempts to build little 'towers of Babel' would fail.

Wonderfully insightful and very concisely put . :iagree:

:iagree:

who then is the faithful and discreet servant,whom the master has put in charge of the servants

  in his household?[God the Master,Jesus Christ the servant] to give them their food at

  the proper time? =Comfortor..that leads into all truth/spirit of truth/holy spirit.

It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so.when he returns.   Jehovah's wittness

  have usurped/sin of presumptuosness..Jesus Christ as Faithful Servant and True wittnessof God

   who feeds His church through the Holy spirit.

   but suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself  'my master is staying away a long time[

  like...this generation 1914 teaching]....and then begins to beat his fellow servants,and to eat

and drink with drunkards[become like babylon-drunk on blood of servants of God/see united nations/NGO

  and fornicating with kings of the earth/   and watchtower about united nations]

   the Master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him,an and hour he is not aware

  of......HE WILL CUT HIM TO PIECES AND ASSIGN HIM A PLACE WITH THE HYPOCRITES,

  WHERE THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.

 the 'usurping' of Jesus Christs position between God and man as mediator is further evidenced

  in the watchtower org. in their teaching that  Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the 'other' sheep

  but just for the watchtowers 'annointed'...that in effect the organization is the mediator for  everyone else.

     Jesus said to beware of wolves in sheep clothing..that many[anti] would come and say 'I am Christ"

      the man to whom the sheep do not belong..flees when he see's the wolves coming........

    but not the true shepherd...He lay down his life for the sheep.

   read their publications...there are 100 pats on the back given to themselves and the 'organization idol'

  they have erected  as an abomination in place of God,Christ and the Holy spirit...of which..I found

  they rarely have much to say of Christ..or of praise of God..they are too busy boasting in organization

  and themselves.  They constantly compare themselves of others as they pray to themselves

  'I am glad I am not like so and so church over here""  [2 cor 10;12]

   Woe to you,teachers of the law,Pharisee's,you hypocrites,you travel over land and sea to win a single

convert,and when he becomes one,you make him twice as much a son of hell..as you are

   Everything they do is done for men to see...you shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces,You

  yourself do not enter,nor will you let those enter who are trying to

   take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents

Sheila,
you are correct :thumbsup: :iagree:

Quote from: jaareshiah on October 30, 2012, 03:13:59 AM
My purpose here is as Jesus said to Pilate: "For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth."(John 18:37)

Mod Note-

jaareshiah, I am sorry you find yourself so deeply caught up in an apostate organization that is deceiving and being deceived.  You seem like a nice person, and hopefully you'll see that the risen Yeshua Messiah alone is our Savior - Him, having died on the cross/tree/stake for our sins, His blood alone atones, salvation is by faith in Him alone, through the free gift of grace.

In the meantime, please be very aware this is a forum that is focused on the discussion of the Ultimate Reconciliation of all to our Savior Yeshua Messiah.  Many various topics are allowed, but no one is allowed to just post religious "talking points" from any particular group or denomination, especially when not even vaguely related to an interactive discussion of UR.

Please keep any further posts interactive and having an UR point, whether refuting, agreeing, or just wondering - rather than continuing to lay out point by point systematic theology of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization.

Thank you, and we wish you well.  Moderators.

that being said, there are many sincere God seeking people in amongst the members. Jesus Christ

will deliver them. But Jesus said of ones like these..'false teachers'.it is better a large millstone be hung from your

neck

  than to stumble one of these little ones that believe in me..

   Love for truth and love for fellow man will go a long way to deliver such ones out of these oppressive

  religious institutions..

    SOS  I will get up now and go about the city,through it's streets and squares. I will search for the one

  my heart loves.So I looked for him,but did not find him.........

.....the watchmen found me as they made their rounds in the city...they beat me,they bruised me...

  they took away my cloak, THOSE WATCHMEN OF THE WALLS!!!!!

Yes, Jesus will deliver.  Some now according to His plan, the rest later - according to His plan.

Every JW I've ever known was a sincere, kind person.  However, as Paul said about the Jewish religion - and I believe  it's true for all - we can have a zeal for God without the proper knowledge   (Jesus crucified, risen again, Savior of the world).

Blessings.  :)

Quote from: jaareshiah on October 30, 2012, 03:13:59 AM
Some seek to undermine the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses.(2 Corinthians 11:13) Rather than simply use the Bible as the basis for true teachings, they concentrate on trying to discredit the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, as if Jehovah's Witnesses were wholly dependent on it for support. But this is not so.

For the best part of a century, the Witnesses used primarily the King James Version, the Roman Catholic Douay Version, or whatever versions were available in their language, to learn the truth about Jehovah and his purposes. And they used these older versions in proclaiming the truth about the condition of the dead, the relationship between God and his Son, and why only a little flock go to heaven.

I don't know for certain when (1920's? 1940's?) the JW's purchased the plates for a handi-size edition of The American Standard Bible, 1901, as well as the right to print it, from the Nat'l Council of Churches of Christ.  (This was on the agreement that no changes would be introduced into the text, as the NCC held the copy-right.)  That was what was primarily used by the JW's for several decades, until their own NWT was released in the 60's. Its use was primarily because the 1901 ASV has Jehovah thousands of times where the KJV uses LORD.  It is highly praised for superior accuracy by almost any original language scholar everywhere, regardless of affiliation.  To the best of my knowledge it is still available for purchase at an extremely modest price from the Watchtower publishers.  Maybe 5 years ago, when I last checked, it was only $5.  Sometime in the 70's I bought a bunch at $2 ea. and rebound some of them in leather for those needing a good Bible.

Quote from: jabcat on November 01, 2012, 08:13:22 PM
Yes, Jesus will deliver.  Some now according to His plan, the rest later - according to His plan.

Every JW I've ever known was a sincere, kind person.  However, as Paul said about the Jewish religion - and I believe  it's true for all - we can have a zeal for God without the proper knowledge   (Jesus crucified, risen again, Savior of the world).

Blessings.  :)

Now I really like that! :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Quote from: jabcat on November 01, 2012, 07:50:35 PM

Quote from: jaareshiah on October 30, 2012, 03:13:59 AM
My purpose here is as Jesus said to Pilate: "For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth."(John 18:37)

Mod Note-

jaareshiah, I am sorry you find yourself so deeply caught up in an apostate organization that is deceiving and being deceived.  You seem like a nice person, and hopefully you'll see that the risen Yeshua Messiah alone is our Savior - Him, having died on the cross/tree/stake for our sins, His blood alone atones, salvation is by faith in Him alone, through the free gift of grace.

In the meantime, please be very aware this is a forum that is focused on the discussion of the Ultimate Reconciliation of all to our Savior Yeshua Messiah.  Many various topics are allowed, but no one is allowed to just post religious "talking points" from any particular group or denomination, especially when not even vaguely related to an interactive discussion of UR.

Please keep any further posts interactive and having an UR point, whether refuting, agreeing, or just wondering - rather than continuing to lay out point by point systematic theology of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization.

Thank you, and we wish you well.  Moderators.

Then, please tell deda2daworld to then keep his comments concerning Jehovah's Witnesses to himself. Otherwise, this will require a rebuttal. "What is good for the goose is good for the gander".

I agree jaareshiah .

The LIE must be refuted not the organization or person who holds on to the lie.
Whether it's Mormonism, Satanism, Watch Tower or Mythology.
If we apply the truth to the Lie the lie will disappear it doesn't matter
how or why the lie came to be believed . 

Jaareshiah,
One more time. This is a forum for the discussion of ideas and questions relating to the ultimate reconciliation of all mankind to God through the shed, atoning blood sacrifice of Jesus. If you want to learn, ask questions or simply read posts. If you don't want to learn, refrain from maling "instructional posts" concerning the watchtower belief system. Since you believe watchtower doctrine and will be disfellowshipped if you differ in your doctrinal belief, it may be better for you to stay in the watchtower cocoon and stay on watchtower website forums. In other words, discuss any aspect of ultimate reconciliation or even eternal torment or don't post at all.

Any further discussion needs to be on focus as ded indicates - not massive, repeated cut and pastes from a doctrinal book, attempting to teach a specific institutional organization's doctrine.  DISCUSSION.  UR RELATED. 

Quote from: ded2daworld on November 02, 2012, 07:06:27 PM
Jaareshiah,
One more time. This is a forum for the discussion of ideas and questions relating to the ultimate reconciliation of all mankind to God through the shed, atoning blood sacrifice of Jesus. If you want to learn, ask questions or simply read posts. If you don't want to learn, refrain from maling "instructional posts" concerning the watchtower belief system. Since you believe watchtower doctrine and will be disfellowshipped if you differ in your doctrinal belief, it may be better for you to stay in the watchtower cocoon and stay on watchtower website forums. In other words, discuss any aspect of ultimate reconciliation or even eternal torment or don't post at all.

I will stay on-topic, and request that you also stay on-topic, not generating cndemnation of Jehovah's Witnesses. In presenting my posts, these are not "cut and pastes" (jabcat's comment) but information that I have given great thought to, utilizing the Bible, just as Jesus did. And as Jesus told Pilate (John 18:37), I will not stop from presenting accurate Scriptural information, for the sake of those who are really searching for what is true, willing to reason on the Bible, rather than allow orthodox "Christianity" to dictate what they should believe.

All I am doing is following in Jesus "footsteps" who (1 Pet 2:21), despite opposition from the Jewish religious leaders, continued making known "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14), explaining various aspects of it as well what is required to gain entrance into it.

Thank you. By the way, most of us here are not a part of orthodox Christianity but believe a doctrine of ultimate reconciliation for all mankind rather than eternal condemnation for most. Most "mainstream" churches do not believe this and do not advocate it.

thanks j.  my mistake on the copy/paste part, that's the information i was given.  my apologies.

Quote from: jaareshiah on November 02, 2012, 09:39:13 PM
I will stay on-topic, and request that you also stay on-topic, not generating cndemnation of Jehovah's Witnesses. In presenting my posts, these are not "cut and pastes" (jabcat's comment) but information that I have given great thought to, utilizing the Bible, just as Jesus did. And as Jesus told Pilate (John 18:37), I will not stop from presenting accurate Scriptural information, for the sake of those who are really searching for what is true, willing to reason on the Bible, rather than allow orthodox "Christianity" to dictate what they should believe.

All I am doing is following in Jesus "footsteps" who (1 Pet 2:21), despite opposition from the Jewish religious leaders, continued making known "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14), explaining various aspects of it as well what is required to gain entrance into it.

Jahreeshiah, the assumption that you already have , and are here to teach, "the truth", runs contrary to the purpose of this board, which is a "discussion forum".

It is not a problem that you are a Jehovah's Witness. It only becomes a problem if you persist in taking the position of a
"teacher", as opposed to simply one who is here to share your point of view and listen in turn to the views of others. I read some interesting points in your posts, and I have read some things that I think are off the wall- and there are some folks on here that would say the same thing of me :o).

I have been a believer for 33 years. In that time I have studied the doctrinal positions of all the major sects and denominations and I am generally familiar with all of them. You are Jehovah's Witness, obviously you believe the systematic theology of that organization. That is OK for you- but you cannot promote it here. This not because you are a Jehovah's Witness- it is about understanding why this blog exists and whether or not you can function as a part of a diverse community of believers that are here to discuss "the restoration of all things".

I suggest you read the following verses, consider them, and respond to them.

"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. "But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. "Moses said, 'THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. 'And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'
(Act 3:13-23)

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:13-20)

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:8-12)

Quote from: jaareshiah on November 02, 2012, 09:39:13 PM
All I am doing is following in Jesus "footsteps" who (1 Pet 2:21), despite opposition from the Jewish religious leaders, continued making known "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14), explaining various aspects of it as well what is required to gain entrance into it.

Following the living Jesus manifesting His presence to us is a different order of things than cooking up a stew of various Bible verses.  Even if our knowledge of Holy Writ is accurate for as little as we can embrace, Jesus making Himself known to us through His indwelling Spirit is something in another dimension than The Book.

The only way anyone can follow in Jesus footsteps is for Jesus to to walk with us in person.  So much about why He died and was resurrected is to give us open access to the presence of God.  The Spirit of that radiant glory by which we perceive Him is how we are changed into the same image, out of one level of splendor into another greater splendor.  Yet, how little time we spend waiting and soaking in His presence.

Perhaps the greatest gift I've been given is hunger:  the hunger to know God and a hunger to understand His Word.  We've been indoctrinated, but void of a transforming experience of God.  When God showed up it was as if even my best was empty and worthless.  Not knowing about Him, but knowing Him is the only thing of any value and my lack of Him had been overlooked.  All my previous knowledge and experiences of Him turned to ashes.  My present perception of God's manifesting Himself to me was so impoverished I could barely breathe for grief.  Nothing else matters in contrast to knowing Him.

"Now we all, with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit."  2 Corinthians 3¹⁸, (Concordant Literal)

"...to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death, if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead."  Philippians 3^10-11, (Concordant Literal)

Eagles way, reformer, Thank you. You said what I wanted in a nicer, more loving way than I've been capable of.

By faith even Sarah herself, when she was unable to have children, received power to conceive offspring, even though she was past the age, since she[f] considered that the One who had promised was faithful. 12 Therefore from one man—in fact, from one as good as dead—came offspring as numerous as the stars of heaven and as innumerable as the grains of sand by the seashore.13 These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth. 14 Now those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they were thinking about where they came from, they would have had an opportunity to return. 16 But they now desire a better place—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Quote from: reFORMer on November 03, 2012, 07:23:28 AM

Quote from: jaareshiah on November 02, 2012, 09:39:13 PM
All I am doing is following in Jesus "footsteps" who (1 Pet 2:21), despite opposition from the Jewish religious leaders, continued making known "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14), explaining various aspects of it as well what is required to gain entrance into it.

Following the living Jesus manifesting His presence to us is a different order of things than cooking up a stew of various Bible verses.  Even if our knowledge of scripture is accurate for as little as we can embrace of Holy Writ, Jesus making Himself known to us through His indwelling Spirit is something in another dimension than The Book.

The only way anyone can follow in Jesus footsteps is for Jesus to to walk with us in person.  So much about why He died and was resurrected is to give us open access to the presence of God.  The Spirit of that radiant glory by which we perceive Him is how we are changed into the same image, out of one level of splendor into another greater splendor.  Yet, how little time we spend waiting and soaking in His presence.

Perhaps the greatest gift I've been given is hunger:  the hunger to know God and a hunger to understand His Word.  We've been indoctrinated, but void of a transforming experience of God.  When God showed up it was as if even my best was empty and worthless.  Not knowing about Him, but knowing Him is the only thing of any value and it had been overlooked.  All my previous knowledge and experiences of Him turned to ashes.  My present perception of God's manifesting Himself to me was so impoverished I could barely breathe for grief.  Nothing else matters in contrast to knowing Him.

"Now we all, with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit."  2 Corinthians 3¹⁸, (Concordant Literal)

"...to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death, if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead."  Philippians 3^10-11, (Concordant Literal)

:cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: YES!!!

Quote from: eaglesway on November 03, 2012, 05:15:26 AM

Quote from: jaareshiah on November 02, 2012, 09:39:13 PM
I will stay on-topic, and request that you also stay on-topic, not generating cndemnation of Jehovah's Witnesses. In presenting my posts, these are not "cut and pastes" (jabcat's comment) but information that I have given great thought to, utilizing the Bible, just as Jesus did. And as Jesus told Pilate (John 18:37), I will not stop from presenting accurate Scriptural information, for the sake of those who are really searching for what is true, willing to reason on the Bible, rather than allow orthodox "Christianity" to dictate what they should believe.

All I am doing is following in Jesus "footsteps" who (1 Pet 2:21), despite opposition from the Jewish religious leaders, continued making known "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14), explaining various aspects of it as well what is required to gain entrance into it.

Jahreeshiah, the assumption that you already have , and are here to teach, "the truth", runs contrary to the purpose of this board, which is a "discussion forum".

It is not a problem that you are a Jehovah's Witness. It only becomes a problem if you persist in taking the position of a
"teacher", as opposed to simply one who is here to share your point of view and listen in turn to the views of others. I read some interesting points in your posts, and I have read some things that I think are off the wall- and there are some folks on here that would say the same thing of me :o).

I have been a believer for 33 years. In that time I have studied the doctrinal positions of all the major sects and denominations and I am generally familiar with all of them. You are Jehovah's Witness, obviously you believe the systematic theology of that organization. That is OK for you- but you cannot promote it here. This not because you are a Jehovah's Witness- it is about understanding why this blog exists and whether or not you can function as a part of a diverse community of believers that are here to discuss "the restoration of all things".

I suggest you read the following verses, consider them, and respond to them.

"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. "But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. "Moses said, 'THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. 'And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'
(Act 3:13-23)

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:13-20)

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:8-12)

Anyone who qualifies as a Christian is one who has followed closely in Jesus "footsteps".(1 Pet 2:21) These seek to explain the Bible as Jesus did as well as discuss it. Otherwise, they are not genuine Christians, but counterfeit ones. At John 1, the apostle John wrote that "because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ. No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him."(John 1:17, 18)

Furthermore, the apostle Matthew wrote of Jesus after having finished the Sermon on the Mount: "Now when Jesus finished these sayings, the effect was that the crowds were astounded at his way of teaching; for he was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes."(Matt 7:28, 29) The scribes did not effectively teach anyone, but Jesus did. He spoke for God and backed up his teaching with the authority of God's Word. (John 7:16) Jesus' statements were clear, his exhortations persuasive, and his arguments irrefutable. His words got to the heart of issues as well as to the hearts of his listeners.

By the way, what is a person to "promote" on this forum ? A personal belief that encompasses thousands of different ideologies or in actuality to dispense what the Bible really teaches ? No person who calls themselves a Christian can just throw out on this forum any "sort of words". Otherwise, what they are saying has no basis as "truth". Truth is not at odds with itself, so there is only one "truth"; as the apostle Paul said "one faith".(Eph 4:5) Jesus did not just "talk", but everything he said effectively taught others about our heavenly Father, Jehovah God.

I have hope that some will be willing to "discuss" the Bible, gaining insight into "the mind of Jehovah" through "the mind of Christ".(1 Cor 2:16) And should this not be the purpose of every genuine Christian, to learn about our Creator, Jehovah God and his Son, Jesus Christ ?(John 17:3)

the apostle Matthew wrote of Jesus after having finished the Sermon on the Mount: "Now when Jesus finished these sayings, the effect was that the crowds were astounded at his way of teaching; for he was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes."(Matt 7:28, 29) The scribes did not effectively teach anyone, but Jesus did. He spoke for God and backed up his teaching with the authority of God's Word. (John 7:16) Jesus' statements were clear, his exhortations persuasive, and his arguments irrefutable. His words got to the heart of issues as well as to the hearts of his listeners.

Yes Jaresiah I understand your dilemma what has been written on your heart
is not what your scribes have written in the book.

We all support you, as you find the courage to listen to your heart and not what man teaches you . All of us here at one time or an other, has had to ignore the man teaching and listen to the spirit of God confirm what we already new in our hearts.

Quote from: jaareshiah on November 04, 2012, 04:33:55 PM

Anyone who qualifies as a Christian is one who has followed closely in Jesus "footsteps".(1 Pet 2:21) These seek to explain the Bible as Jesus did as well as discuss it. Otherwise, they are not genuine Christians, but counterfeit ones.

Jaareshiah, I have a question, but  I'll go first by letting you know where I am;  I believe some of what you share, other things I disagree with.  One is, I don't believe our Father's name is Jehovah.  I believe that has been shown to be a corruption.  Although I think it's important, I don't believe that in and of itself is a "do-or-die" point, as most of us also use "Jesus", which is also not literally accurate.  My position is, He knows what's in our heart and in Whom we have believed - the PERSON of Yeshua Meshiach.  Accuracy is good as He leads, but if we "accidentally" or by habit call Him a name which the language He has given us has taught us, I don't believe He holds that against us one way or another, as in "uh-oh, you got my name wrong, you're doomed". 

Another thing, although a true believer will follow in Jesus' footsteps, that's not what the scriptures say makes one spiritually reborn, which Jesus said must occur before one can enter the kingdom.  I believe the scriptures teach that is not by the Law, or not by works, not by effort to do good deeds, including what we may imagine as "following in Jesus' footsteps".  Following Him is an act of obedience as the indwelling Holy Spirit empowers us to do so, after we're spiritually reborn and infilled.  Salvation  is through the gift of grace through faith in Yeshua and His finished work on the cross.  That happens when the Holy Spirit convicts us of our need for the Savior and gives us faith and strength to believe on His name as our Savior.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me."

Rom 10:9-10 ... If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

Eph 2:8-9  For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God--not the result of works, so that no one may boast.

So my question.  Do you believe one must believe Jesus came and died as the sacrifice for our sins, that He rose again, and that it's through belief on Him and Him alone by which we are saved?  If so, great.  If not, where do you differ?  Thanks.