Universal Salvation

[Horan]

Hello,

My name is Mark Horan, living now in Cambridge, MA. I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist, but I do follow them with regards to prophecy. However, I don't agree with everything they present, and the subject I've posted for this topic represents a major, topical area where I take issue with SDA doctrine. But I can't write my own Bible to suit myself, so I've wanted to find a forum where it's possible to explore matters of this nature in an open-minded way. I'm genuinely not sure what the story is, but I feel it's very important, particularly at this time, to get this right, insomuch as it might be humanly possible.

Adventists don't believe in eternal torment in hell, and provide very good, scriptural and linguistic support for their view. They do believe, however, that at the end of the millennium, when the vast majority of humanity that has ever lived have been resurrected, that these will be judged, in a sense have their noses rubbed in whatever they did or didn't do, just before they are burned up in a literal lake of fire. with the worst of them burning somewhat longer than the best of them and that we saints, if I may be so bold, will somehow be approving of this spectacle.

So I hope to resolves this issue and also prepare myself for presenting it as accurately as possible.

Best,
Mark

[WhiteWings]

 :welcome: :newb: Horan,

So you didn't join us to discuss a topic but to discuss "the theory of everything"?  :laugh: :Peace2:

[Horan]

I'm sorry WhiteWings, but I don't understand your posting. It appears to me that people can compile Biblical support for either universal or selective salvation. I do believe in the SDA doctrine of soul sleep, that the dead are entirely dead and gone, but not forgotten, as in Jesus saying that even the hairs on our heads are numbered. I think Adventists provide excellent support for this. Adventists believe this is indicative of God's mercy, which is to say, nobody is required to follow Christ, and those who chose not to are simply retired, after three score and ten years or however long they live, from ever needing or wanting to do anything whatsoever, or think anything, or feel anything, ever again. And I can appreciate this, and even construe it as merciful.

The harvest theme is so prevalent in the New Testament gospels, and it seems clear to me that, at Jesus' second coming, there will be a selection made. I'd be interested to see how this can be explained away using scripture. My understanding of the narrative is that first Christ's faithful dead will be raised up to meet Him in the air, followed by His faithful living, and I take this literally. And I suspect that for those left behind, in essentially a Godless world, it will be a terrifying end, with much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But I suspect that at the end of the millennium, when the "wicked" are resurrected, there will be a yet another opportunity for them to repent and be saved, which definitely disagrees with Adventist doctrine, but it's what I want to believe. I want to believe in such stubborn and persistent mercy on God's part being fully a match, if not better than our own stubborn disobedience, and that He fully intends to wear our resistance to Him down. I subscribe to the Adventist understanding that Armageddon is not a literal battle, but a spiritual one for the hearts and minds of people, for their allegiance and loyalty. But I don't understand why Adventists then construe the final battle, Gog and Magog, which takes place after the millennium, to be a literal one.

Best,
Mark

[Shev]

Greetings Mark, and welcome to the forum!

There are many wonderful threads here that look at universal salvation from a variety of angles, and indeed, it is impossible to boil the subject easily into one posting. It tends to be a subject that gets drawn out precept upon precept, little by little. That being said, I would try and respond briefly to your thoughtful post.

To me, the truest evidence of universal salvation begins with the person of Jesus Christ Himself, and though that should be an obvious statement, it still clarifies so much to see all things through that prism. The scriptures say that He was sent to save the lost, to be a propitiation (or mercy seat) for the whole world (not just believers), to taste death for every man, to rise above all things, for all people to be drawn to Him, for all things to be for, through and to Him, for all things to be summed up into Him as the Head, and for Him to then be submitted to the Father at the end of the ages, that God may be All in All. This is a clear thread that runs through the scriptures, and shows that the plan of God begins and ends with the glory and magnificence of Jesus Christ Himself, for whose sake are all things, and that we are sharers in His glory by His generosity. Thus, salvation is not a divine game of snakes and ladders, where some ascend to heaven or descend to hell based on their choices, but rather a definite playing out of a wise, merciful plan, by which God subjected the creation to futility, but in hope, and a sure hope at that.

The church system, for centuries past, has started with the believer instead, and sees God's plan and the process of salvation with the believer too close to the root, assigning man's will a strength above even that of God's, as if our perfect Father somehow created a universe He cannot or will not control. For what loving parent ever subjected their own will to that of their immature child and claimed it to be a good thing?

We have been taught to view the judgments of God as the condemnation of God, but the judgments of God are rather the means of the inhabitants of the earth learning righteousness, and indeed we know that these very judgments begin with the house of God! These are redemptive in nature, to bring mankind at last into the holiness of God.

Anything short of the salvation of all men makes Adam's transgression more powerful than the blood of Christ, and the will of man more potent than the will of God. But thankfully, God indeed has a plan, one which He purposed within Himself before the foundation of the world, and His thoughts towards mankind are compassionate, for He knows we are beset with weaknesses.

Salvation is not by opportunity, and not by chance. It is God who says "Let there be light!", and causes the light to shine in the hearts of men.

God bless!

[jabcat]

Welcome Horan.  Interesting thoughts.

[Horan]

Shev, that was very nicely put. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort. What you've written rings true for me, and the more I explore this particular, very central issue, the more confident I am that Jesus simply will not rest until we are all, without exception, resting in Him. The challenge; however, is to support this with regard to talking with others, compiling not only the Biblical support which indicates that all are saved, but also being able to manage quite a number of scriptural verses which can easily be read to indicated else but universal salvation. 

But I think maybe I've landed in a nice place, this forum, and it's encouraging to me to read you admit that you don't have all the answers. Personally I think there are very few certain things, and that most of what we call doctrine is understanding. God is certain, as is Jesus Christ, that He died for us, rose again and ascended, and that He's going to do exactly what He said He would do. But so much else, the Revelation narrative for example, is an understanding, in my view, and it's simply very healthy to keep an open mind regarding these particulars, which I've rarely encountered.

Thanks again. I'll start bringing up some sticky-wickets on the universal salvation topic, some of those verses which appear problematic, to see if they can't be ironed out. The points you've made are excellent, especially that about the relative power of Adam's sin compared with Christ's blood. I should be talking to people soon, and I need to get this nailed down, such that I'm entirely clear on it and confident that I can support it with scripture.

Best,
Mark

[Eduard]

Welcome, Mark! I think that I share the SDA views on "soul sleep", and denial of eternal punishment as well of course, but I also can't write a different Bible, just try to understand the more complicated matters of the one Bible.

You are very right that we do not have all the answers, and I don't even believe that the church fathers after the apostles were always in agreement, which ultimately led to the Great Schism and also the suppression of the beliefs outside the official doctrine.

I hope you will enjoy discussion here at Tentmaker!  :Peace2:

[Ross]

G'day Mark;

The great white throne of judgment is an unlimited time.
Judgment points out the errors. What was done wrong and why etc.
To appreciate that coverage for the individual they need to know what they did wrong etc.
The sentence is covered by Christ.
When in the resurrection some, who are not yet converted, will be raised in mortal bodies- these bodies, which are temporary,  will then be thrown into the lake of fire when they have been corrected and then they will receive the spiritual bodies.
This seems to be the key difference between first fruit and those who come in after the millennium.
The first fruit is a blessing for those who know Christ.
1 Cor 15 speaks volumes about this whole scenario.
Christ first- then the ecclesia- then the rest will be brought in and ruled until Christ has everyone in hand. Then He presents the kingdom to His Father.
Many religions see parts of this but then add twists.
God is greater than man. He has all this planned since before the beginning of the world. He is fully capable.
Can the pot say to the potter 'this is why he made me?'
Man goes to great diversity to come up with all sorts of reasons why man is around.
The flesh is opposite to the spirit.
Gal 5 talks about this very concept.
We were deliberately made in the flesh.
Before the founding of the world Christ knew He would be sacrificed on the cross for the whole of mankind.
There is no failure there.
So any outlook that says man will be thrown away to eternal suffering diminishes the work of Christ and tries to claim superiority to God.

[Shev]

Shev, that was very nicely put. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort. What you've written rings true for me, and the more I explore this particular, very central issue, the more confident I am that Jesus simply will not rest until we are all, without exception, resting in Him. The challenge; however, is to support this with regard to talking with others, compiling not only the Biblical support which indicates that all are saved, but also being able to manage quite a number of scriptural verses which can easily be read to indicated else but universal salvation. 

But I think maybe I've landed in a nice place, this forum, and it's encouraging to me to read you admit that you don't have all the answers. Personally I think there are very few certain things, and that most of what we call doctrine is understanding. God is certain, as is Jesus Christ, that He died for us, rose again and ascended, and that He's going to do exactly what He said He would do. But so much else, the Revelation narrative for example, is an understanding, in my view, and it's simply very healthy to keep an open mind regarding these particulars, which I've rarely encountered.

Thanks again. I'll start bringing up some sticky-wickets on the universal salvation topic, some of those verses which appear problematic, to see if they can't be ironed out. The points you've made are excellent, especially that about the relative power of Adam's sin compared with Christ's blood. I should be talking to people soon, and I need to get this nailed down, such that I'm entirely clear on it and confident that I can support it with scripture.

Best,
Mark

Thanks Mark, and I hope this forum is a benefit to you, and am already confident we will benefit from your fellowship and thoughts! I agree with regards to not having all the answers. The desire to be all-knowing in our faith is a powerful one (and comes from good intentions too), but the reality is there will always be questions until the light of Christ has swallowed up every vestige of darkness and we know as we are known.

God bless you, brother!

[Horan]

Thank you Ross,

I believe we shall be the first fruits with Christ at His second coming, and that we shall be priests and rulers with Him, and subsequently prepared as effective ministers to that vast multitude raised up at millennium's end,  such that we shall be enabled to say, with Jesus Christ, that we've lost not a single soul. Thank you for directing me to 1 Corinthians 15.

In the certainty of His promise,
Mark

[Horan]

Hello Eduard,

The Adventist folks discovered, perhaps rediscovered the doctrine of soul sleep, after their great disappointment, when Jesus didn't return in 1844, and the few people who subsequently hadn't bailed out of the movement entirely, went back and started digging into their Bibles. But you can do a search on Biblical state of the dead, and many people have compiled lists of the many verses which very nicely support this doctrine, as well as the many verses with simply refer to death as sleep. To me it's absolutely charming, so simple and clear, that God remembers every little thing about us, not only every hair on our heads, but also every neural connection and pathway, such that we can be entirely, accurately reconstituted at His will. Martha refers to this when addressing Jesus at the raising of Lazarus, that resurrection was a common understanding for Jews of her day. And how many times is it said that the kingdom is at hand, so soon to come. and how often do scoffers point to this as proof that the scriptures are wrong, since it obviously hasn't literally happened. And yet, not a single one of the faithful, throughout all of the past 2000 years at least, including that thief who received Jesus' promise on Calvary, waits more than a single lifetime for His second coming. For that thief, who asked that Jesus remember him when He comes into His kingdom, it was or shall be as no more than a blink of an eye, one moment dead as a door nail, in the next raised up to behold Jesus' coming in the clouds, with the interval in-between seeming to him as no more than a heartbeat, no different than us when it seems that, almost as soon as we've laid our heads on the pillow, if we've slept quite soundly, we're hearing the alarm clock ring. To me, learning of this doctrine, was very good news.

In Christ,
Mark

[Lazarus Short]

Mark, let me say first that I am a former Adventist.  The deal-breaker, if I can call it that, was learning that at a General Conference in the 1800's, the classic doctrine of salvation by grace by faith --- was voted DOWN.  Other than that, I know all about the charges of plagiarism leveled against Ellen White, and one result (if true) is that in one place she spells out in detail the end of the wicked:  reduced to ashes, end of story.  In another place, she speaks of people going to Hell, so which is it?

I don't care to slam the SDA church overmuch, but I try to keep clear of confusion.  If I read my Bible without preconceptions, the light eventually comes on.  In a church, most any church, that's not so easy. 

Anyway, welcome to the Tent!  :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu:

[Ross]

Mark;
All pretty amazing really at the incredible detail and precision that is required to run this whole program.
I like the computer scenario;
When there is a glitch in the program this can seem to be running alright, but then crash. So you have to reconfigure and delete the garbage.
Similar looking programs can be non-compatible. Which then shuts down the system.
When the system is installed correctly there is speed and function without fault.
So;
When man adds to the work of Christ there are problems, glitches, shut downs.
Christ running the system correctly to His program wipes out all the erroneous data and enhances the performance and appreciation to the point of inexplicable joy- which others cannot grasp yet because they are not yet fired up in the program.

* In the 1 Cor 15 I like the fact that we are sown in mortal, yet raised immortal.
Sown in dishonour, raised in glory, sown in weakness, raised in power, sown in  a natural body, raised in a spiritual body.
So we will be raised in a glorious, powerful, spiritual body.- We will be like Christ [ Phil 3;21]

Add in the explanation in;
1 Cor 1553,54 " For this corruptible MUST put on in-corruption, and this mortal MUST put on immortality.
When this corruptible shall put on in-corruption, and this mortal shall put on immortal,
THEN will take place what is written,
' Death was swallowed up in victory."

A glorious, wondrous promise of life to come which exceeds our capacity to fully comprehend- hence standing in AWE is not standing in fear, but in 140% wonder at this fact.

1 Cor 15;57 " But thanks  be to God WHO GIVES US THE VICTORY THROUGH CHRIST OUR  LORD."

Amen!!!!!

[Horan]

Lazarus, I don't disagree with you regarding anything you've said of the SDA church. I'm not the least bit offended. I've expressed the conflict I have with their and Ellen White's post-millennial view, and I have other differences, last plagues, end of probation, and perhaps more. And as well I'm aware that they seem to be slipping quite rapidly into ecumenical apostasy. But those people, insofar as people are concerned with the matter, brought me back to Christ, were the first people in my whole life who've made it clear to me that Jesus is real and that he's going to do exactly what He said He would do, and managed also to integrate that message with everything else I understand about the world. I listen to lots of people seriously with whom I nonetheless have disagreements. I think the Adventists generally have a good take on prophecy, Book of Revelation and Daniel, hardly perfectly accurate in my opinion, but still heads and tails better than most, and I listen to many others, such that I've done a pretty good survey across the variety of end-time understandings, and I'm not finished yet. But I'm glad right now that I'm not SDA, because I can be objective about them and use them, hopefully without appearing to be biased. The SDA church offers nothing with regard to universals salvation except negation of it, and I think that's a very, very serious flaw in their doctrine. I'm too old, I believe the end is much too near, and I don't have time to study the old-fashioned way. I want to be out there on the street doing the work as quickly as possible, so I use whatever helps me get the job done, including you guys, so thank God for the Internet!

God bless you! :)
Mark

[bushy]

I'm glad you found this forum, Mark. There are going to be interesting threads if you keep it up. I also thank God for the internet.  :welcome: