Hi All,
I've just been reading the interesting book Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine by JW Hanson that Gary's kindly included in his resource books at the site. Chapter 4 explains that a justification of the early Church fathers such as Origen and Clement of Alexandria for keeping universalism from "the masses" was essentially that the spiritually immature would take it as a licence to sin and abuse God's grace. Essentially based on a view that people can't handle the truth and need to be protected from their depraved motives.
Do you think there is any credence to this approach and do scriptures dealing with not casting pearls before swine and the heart being wicked and deceiving, provide scriptural support? :dontknow:
Hey Ben,
I have read that book too - a very interesting read! With regards to your question, I very much disagree with the position of Origen and others that the truth of UR should be kept from the masses, even for a season. People do need milk first, then meat as they grow, but not "lies first and then truth". The problem with allowing ET, even for the sake of keeping people in line, is that it presents a false picture of God and His Christ, laying an erroneous foundation stone upon which many other errors are piled up. When God begins granting the revelation of UR to a believer, there is often so much un-learning, re-learning and healing that has to take place, owing to the abuses of ET.
It is the truth that sets people free.
God bless!
Hi Shev - Thanks for the reply.
Isn't holding back the truth of universal salvation different to affirmatively teaching ET, and therefore fits your "milk then meat" principle? So it might be a case of preaching the gospel of freedom from slavery to sin, fear and death first, possibly with the hope of universal salvation. Not to be the devil's advocate (!) I'm just interested in whether people think there is any merit to the Church fathers' circumspection from a evangelical perspective.
I believe it is connected with the doctrine of the Nicolaitins[subdue the people] and in the parable of the wicked servant He
showed..the purpose was to feed the members of the household..not beat them..cause the Master was delaying.
the little ones were to grow up in love..not be 'abused'. even amongst the families of man..there is correction/discipline in
a loving home..and 'abuse' in a non-love based dysfunctional home.
it's a matter of keeping your original position in Christ. He already had built in His parable's/teachings,a filter..that barred the way
unto those not ready to receive the revelation.
this resulted in an escalation of abuses and corruption of the gospel...causes God's name to 'stink" just like Jacob/Israel's
name stunk because of the cruelty of Simeon and Levi Genesis 49;5,6 Simeon and Levi are brother's-their swords are
weapons of violence. Let me not enter their counsel,not me not join their assembly,for they have killed men in their anger
AND HAMSTRUNG OXEN AS THEY PLEASED.. Cursed be their anger so fierce and their fury so cruel.! I will scatter them
in Jacob and disperse them in Israel.
in Genesis 37 Joseph's brother's said...'do you intend to rule over us" Christ is the Head over His brothers
let's kill him and throw him in a cistern..AND SAY A FEROCIOUS ANIMAL HAS DEVOURED HIM...two wittness's killed of
the beast[of coarse 'the brother's were the ones acting like beasts]
my :2c:
:cloud9: @ BenC.......It's in the Word, we were all given the Word by the Spirit. Withholding any part of that Word is therefore a work of the flesh, not the Spirit. The Spirit is more than capable of bringing circumstances to give attitude adjustments should anyone decide they can use grace to wilfully sin. My :2c: Blessings....
:cloud9: @ Sheila.... :iagree:
Quote from: BenC on August 28, 2015, 10:46:43 AM
Hi Shev - Thanks for the reply.
Isn't holding back the truth of universal salvation different to affirmatively teaching ET, and therefore fits your "milk then meat" principle? So it might be a case of preaching the gospel of freedom from slavery to sin, fear and death first, possibly with the hope of universal salvation. Not to be the devil's advocate (!) I'm just interested in whether people think there is any merit to the Church fathers' circumspection from a evangelical perspective.
Hello Ben,
The problem is, that is UR is held back, what is going to be believed in it's place? Everyone is going to believe something about salvation, so without UR, though there are still a few options, none of them are true.
I guess I would boil it down to this: did Paul preach UR? Yes he did. Who did he send his letters to - the leaders only, or all the people? All the people, of course. So Paul evidently did not see the need to hold back, when he wrote 1 Corinthians 15 or Romans 8, or many of the other passages.
I must say here I do appreciate Origen and Clement of Alexandria, and I have read much of both of their writings. I believe Origen was very unfairly treated after his death. However, in this matter I do disagree with them, as I think it is a departure from the scriptures.
The Spirit does lead into all truth bit by bit, and sometimes there are things we "cannot bear now". But I do think this is different than willfully holding back the truth of people, on the assumption that they will run out and sin. After all, if someone wants to sin more than they want to follow Christ, maybe that needs to be manifest anyway?
God bless, brother!
BenC, welcome to the Tent! :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu:
As to your question, a small error at the beginning only leads to greater error over time, as people tend not to go back and recheck their assumptions. Things get worse and worse until the whole civilization/culture undergoes a reset.
Also keep this quote in mind: It seems a law of history for successful movements and empires to resist further change after the needs that had motivated them into prompting change had been satisfied. -James P. Hogan, from Giant's Star
The late F. Tupper Saussy's book "Rulers of Evil; Useful Knowledge About Governing Bodies" may help you in an indirect way.
Getting Christians to sin less is not the message of the gospel.
The result of the true gospel is that the believer Loves more.
The more we Love.
A by-product of Loving is less sinning.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 28, 2015, 08:40:02 PM
Getting Christians to sin less is not the message of the gospel.
The result of the true gospel is that the believer Loves more.
The more we Love.
A by-product of Loving is less sinning.
You nailed it. [takes three nails for best results]
Yes, and yes.
I would even go a step further and say, the message of the Gospel is to die to self, and allow God to fill us. Then, we will love more, because God is Love. God wants all of us. He wants to direct our lives.
He is the vine, we are the branches. The sheep know the sound of His voice. Unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, it remains alone.
Embrace the Jesus who loved us and gave His life for us......and, now, we can give Him ours.
D.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 28, 2015, 08:40:02 PM
Getting Christians to sin less is not the message of the gospel.
The result of the true gospel is that the believer Loves more.
The more we Love.
A by-product of Loving is less sinning.
Well said, :iagree: and thank you. It's all too easy to get self-righteous and overlook the true pure gospel foundation!
Your helpful replies all list persuasive grounds for being straight-up about the great gift of universal salvation. Why would you hold back, if this is the central atoning message of God's great love that frees and shows the way to life. Therefore all evangelism should centre on this message.
Quote from: BenC on August 29, 2015, 10:08:15 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on August 28, 2015, 08:40:02 PM
Getting Christians to sin less is not the message of the gospel.
The result of the true gospel is that the believer Loves more.
The more we Love.
A by-product of Loving is less sinning.
Well said, :iagree: and thank you. It's all too easy to get self-righteous and overlook the true pure gospel foundation!
Your helpful replies all list persuasive grounds for being straight-up about the great gift of universal salvation. Why would you hold back, if this is the central atoning message of God's great love that frees and shows the way to life. Therefore all evangelism should centre on this message.
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: dajomaco on August 28, 2015, 08:40:02 PM
Getting Christians to sin less is not the message of the gospel.
The result of the true gospel is that the believer Loves more.
The more we Love.
A by-product of Loving is less sinning.
Awesome :o)
Quote from: dajomaco on August 28, 2015, 08:40:02 PM
Getting Christians to sin less is not the message of the gospel.
The result of the true gospel is that the believer Loves more.
The more we Love.
A by-product of Loving is less sinning.
Thinking more on your quote, I'm not sure that less sinning is just a "by-product" of Loving. May I suggest it's initially a rational decision made in response to divine revelation (metanoia - change of mind) that is a fundamental first fruit of spiritual birth. When walking in darkness I had only a vague idea of my own sinfulness. It's only the conviction and confession of our depraved and wretched condition that invites the Spirit in. John the Baptist preached remission of sin in order to prepare the paths for salvation.
We have to actively resist the devil and follow the way. Although these are not in conflict if the done in the spirit, they are still 2 distinct things.
As some wit on Youtube said, Jesus doesn't stop you sinning, he just takes the fun out of it. :laugh:
idk Ben,maybe I'm just different...but it was an emotional 'heart' reaction in me. My heart said 'YES!!!" Finally a God I CAN LOVE"
and it just seems like 'love brings out the best in everyone"
maybe because I had already been walking in conviction of being a sinner for so long..after all that had been 'drilled' into my mind for years
by the legalistic church I was in.the sense of unworthiness was so strong...how could you expect love?
I know other people's expierence are different than mine...and they have come to this revealation from a different route..perhaps through a
less restrictive/demanding church.
love makes everything easier..... now Jacob loved Rachael...and he had to serve 14 years for her..but to him it was like nothing.
I 'needed' His love like the earth needs the rain and sunshine to green-up and blossom. His love strengthens me.
..where I come from..written July 7th 2001 titled Loves perfect way.....I had just found out about salvation of all
I sought the face of God..to try and win His love.
....for in His love I would find rest and provision for my soul.
I set out..to win His heart....
and keep it for my own....
I did not know.....
He would take mine...
and thereby...I came home.
.....I came from a works oriented salvation. Our lives didn't matter...what mattered was God's righteousness and name being
vindicated. They certainly overlooked the name LOVE and mercy in the equation..and the salvation of All men being HIS GLORY
when you think of the Bride of Christ..what comes to mind.? Do you not think a deep mutual love is protective against adultery?
love..is the perfect bond of union
Yes, we must resist the devil, but only love empowers that resistance.
"Neither circumcision or uncircumcision is anything, but faith working through love.' (Gal 5)
As Jesus said all the law and the prophets are summed up in the two great commands, which are both concerning love.
Paul says a lot about walking in the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, being renewed in the spirit of our minds, "If you do by the spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh you shall live"....
In Romans 5 he tells us the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit and in Eph 3 he tells us that we are to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in our inner man so that we can be "rooted and grounded in love'
Love fulfills the law & love is the power by which Jesus overcame the devil at the cross, securing our deliverance(love held Him there, not the nails in His hands and feet).
So, my point is that love is the core of everything. The fountainhead of life. The empowering force of righteousness, The ground from which all the fruit of the spirit springs. The word upon which all of the scriptures hinge. The fulcrum upon which every verse finds leverage. The peg upon which all of the wisdom of God is hung.
If the written word is the horizon, the love of God is the sun rising over the mountains of Zion on the dawning of the Day of God.
love Love LOVE LOVE
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So, my point is that love is the core of everything. The fountainhead of life. The empowering force of righteousness, The ground from which all the fruit of the spirit springs. The word upon which all of the scriptures hinge. The fulcrum upon which every verse finds leverage. The peg upon which all of the wisdom of God is hung.
:HeartThrob: :iagree: :friendstu:
Quote from: sheila on August 31, 2015, 03:22:16 PM
idk Ben,maybe I'm just different...but it was an emotional 'heart' reaction in me. My heart said 'YES!!!" Finally a God I CAN LOVE"
and it just seems like 'love brings out the best in everyone"
maybe because I had already been walking in conviction of being a sinner for so long..after all that had been 'drilled' into my mind for years
by the legalistic church I was in.the sense of unworthiness was so strong...how could you expect love?
I know other people's expierence are different than mine...and they have come to this revealation from a different route..perhaps through a
less restrictive/demanding church.
love makes everything easier..... now Jacob loved Rachael...and he had to serve 14 years for her..but to him it was like nothing.
I 'needed' His love like the earth needs the rain and sunshine to green-up and blossom. His love strengthens me.
Thank you Sheila.
The Love the Father has for Jesus is a true love .
I can have unending faith in this love.
For God so Loved the world that he gave his only son .
We are partakers of this Love
Quote from: sheila on August 31, 2015, 03:22:16 PM
idk Ben,maybe I'm just different...but it was an emotional 'heart' reaction in me. My heart said 'YES!!!" Finally a God I CAN LOVE"
and it just seems like 'love brings out the best in everyone"
maybe because I had already been walking in conviction of being a sinner for so long..after all that had been 'drilled' into my mind for years
by the legalistic church I was in.the sense of unworthiness was so strong...how could you expect love?
I know other people's expierence are different than mine...and they have come to this revealation from a different route..perhaps through a
less restrictive/demanding church.
love makes everything easier..... now Jacob loved Rachael...and he had to serve 14 years for her..but to him it was like nothing.
I 'needed' His love like the earth needs the rain and sunshine to green-up and blossom. His love strengthens me.
Lol, thanks for the gentle and considerate correction Sheila, I think I was about to stumble back into the grave. Great to see those who are not just hearers of the Word, but also doers. It's kind of sad to be washed with the forgiveness and love - freed from the mental curse of daily minutiae - just to enthusiastically embark on some proud work of the same character to try to prove something to God! :doh: Ah the curse of the law persists.