the sheep and the goats decoded?

[deeplyloved]

It probably has already been decoded here, so to speak; but where is the thread addressing the parable of the sheep and the goats? Thx all!

[deeplyloved]

I found an article that addressed much of what i had been seeking and it presented a number of points of view. It is shared here. A bit long but, i feel, well worth the read:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/billykangas/2014/11/who-are-the-least-in-the-parable-of-the-sheep-and-the-goats.html

[CST]

OK, I've gotten tired of reading that for now but the conclusions I've drawn are that the writer is referencing texts Matthew probably wouldn't have read, seen or acknowledge as if he would have done and that the text supports ET which Matthew was advocating. Also the text seems only to be about who 'the least of these' might be not what the parable actually means which is already taken for granted: good go to Heaven forever, evil go to Hell for Eternity.

[deeplyloved]

Conclusion:

This account is a mosaic. It does not limit itself to a single source of even genre to present the material in.  The language employed draws imagery (either directly or indirectly) from a large number of sources both within the Jewish tradition and also throughout the Greco-Roman world. From these selected shards of poetry, prose, and cultural memory is we are able to craft a picture of the first century Mediterranean imagination from which the Gospel of Matthew emerged.

The passage itself is not revolutionary in who it presents as entering into eternal life or demonic fire, people were already inundated with a theme of final judgment being associated with a division based of works or mercy. In the cultural context of the ancient near-east it was common to articulate a final judgment narrative where the way one cares for hungry, thirsty and naked people determined the final destination of the soul. The radical discipleship of presented in Matthew's gospel simply heightened this message calling disciples to love their neighbors as themselves. If Matthew intended this to be a message that limited the necessity to care for one's neighbor to fellow believers he would have had to have made that message much more explicit given his own vision of discipleship and the overwhelming cultural import of service to one's neighbors (including foreigners). Because of this I must conclude that the cultural evidence does not support the "classical" interpretive model.

The examples that point to the judgment being for how outsiders treated the chosen people come only from text that deal with either the prophetic vision for the nation of Israel, or come out of a highly the socially stratified personality cult in the case of Manichaeism. Neither of these views on final judgment are the dominant strain within either the Jewish or the broader Greco-Roman context. The passage itself would have had to be explicit in its intentions if it wanted hearers at that time to take understand the judgment as being against those who harmed the holy people of God, therefore the cultural evidence does not support the Exclusive Interpretive Model.

The eschatological world view required to believe the dispensationalist model is nowhere to be found in the parallel passages on last judgment that we have examined. This belief seems to impose a system on the text rather than deriving its theological interpretation from the text itself. Because of this it is unsurprising that the cultural evidence does not support the Dispensationalist Model.

What we do have in the parallel readings are consistent themes of caring for one's neighbor, whoever they might be as a criterion for eternal life. We also repeatedly see the call for the saints and holy ones to be the leading examples of service rather than the primary beneficiaries of other's good works. It seems unlikely that Matthew's radical call for discipleship would have suddenly put limits on who to serve. It also seems unlikely that the theme of hidden presence, being consistently manifest in the ministry of the Church itself, would suddenly have shifted toward it being manifested in how others treat the Church. These themes make it most likely that the "universal model" is the best supported option for interpretation, based on cultural evidence.

[marie glen]

I read some of the article.. very interesting to hear of the different interpretations.. I sometimes think these are nations.. the anti-Jesus ones will be gathered to Armageddon.. Which is the fiery judgment I think is most referred to.

But then again, I sometimes think the Lord meant the same as He did when He said "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you.." - Matthew 7:22

But note! that it does not say forever! (It never does!) :gsmile:

Same as those not watching/paying attention, and knowing the signs of His approaching return.. Not holding to the head and the word.. distracted in one way or another..

Which I think the "Day of the LORD" begins with the trauma preceding Jesus' return; the consequences, i.e. 'judgments' of man's ways, or that is of wayward, estranged from God ways - which as we know, can never work. The consequences/judgment being the Day of the LORD, explains, to me, what is meant by some in danger of being "taken unawares" by things which will occur in that day. Thus the backslidden, even the unaware, may have share in the fiery judgment/apocalypse (having been gathered to Armageddon. ...Or caught in the fierce persecutions prophesied? but praise God the Lord and His grace will be with them!). Perhaps this is why the book of Revelation says of itself, blessed are those who hear and heed the words of its prophesy.

Also how we want to be found of Him being a servant.. a blessing to others (not a curse! Lol).. Aiding others when we get the chance through actions and also through attitude! (Imo) ...Being a good listener! A friend.. humble, gentle.. Not found of Him beating upon other members of the household (Mt 24, I think of this when I read some forums out there on the ww web! - do we see the separating of sheep and goats happening already?)

I almost forgot! I wanted to mention how I truly believe the "tares" gathered to be burned, is a reference to the gathering to Armageddon - Rev 16:14,15,16.

Definitely an interesting topic! :Peace2:

[CST]

Conclusion:

This account is a mosaic. It does not limit itself to a single source of even genre to present the material in.  The language employed draws imagery (either directly or indirectly) from a large number of sources both within the Jewish tradition and also throughout the Greco-Roman world. From these selected shards of poetry, prose, and cultural memory is we are able to craft a picture of the first century Mediterranean imagination from which the Gospel of Matthew emerged.

The passage itself is not revolutionary in who it presents as entering into eternal life or demonic fire, people were already inundated with a theme of final judgment being associated with a division based of works or mercy. In the cultural context of the ancient near-east it was common to articulate a final judgment narrative where the way one cares for hungry, thirsty and naked people determined the final destination of the soul. The radical discipleship of presented in Matthew's gospel simply heightened this message calling disciples to love their neighbors as themselves. If Matthew intended this to be a message that limited the necessity to care for one's neighbor to fellow believers he would have had to have made that message much more explicit given his own vision of discipleship and the overwhelming cultural import of service to one's neighbors (including foreigners). Because of this I must conclude that the cultural evidence does not support the "classical" interpretive model.

The examples that point to the judgment being for how outsiders treated the chosen people come only from text that deal with either the prophetic vision for the nation of Israel, or come out of a highly the socially stratified personality cult in the case of Manichaeism. Neither of these views on final judgment are the dominant strain within either the Jewish or the broader Greco-Roman context. The passage itself would have had to be explicit in its intentions if it wanted hearers at that time to take understand the judgment as being against those who harmed the holy people of God, therefore the cultural evidence does not support the Exclusive Interpretive Model.

The eschatological world view required to believe the dispensationalist model is nowhere to be found in the parallel passages on last judgment that we have examined. This belief seems to impose a system on the text rather than deriving its theological interpretation from the text itself. Because of this it is unsurprising that the cultural evidence does not support the Dispensationalist Model.

What we do have in the parallel readings are consistent themes of caring for one's neighbor, whoever they might be as a criterion for eternal life. We also repeatedly see the call for the saints and holy ones to be the leading examples of service rather than the primary beneficiaries of other's good works. It seems unlikely that Matthew's radical call for discipleship would have suddenly put limits on who to serve. It also seems unlikely that the theme of hidden presence, being consistently manifest in the ministry of the Church itself, would suddenly have shifted toward it being manifested in how others treat the Church. These themes make it most likely that the "universal model" is the best supported option for interpretation, based on cultural evidence.

Yeah, I did get around to reading the full article but I didn't really get what he was saying in that conclusion you have posted or what you're trying to say by reposting it.

His claim for the contents of the mosaic included is the section he called 'Old Testament' material from the apocrypha that Jews have never accepted in their scripture and is generally believed to be younger than Matthew's gospel. He appears also to be implying that the parable is not a real teaching of Jesus but something Matthew made up and put in Jesus' mouth based on those other teachings. If that were so we would be free to ignore it because Jesus didn't say it and it would have no authority and nor would the rest of Matthew's gospel coming from a liar without the truth in him as it does. That's obviously incorrect.

As it stands it doesn't seem to answer it's own question 'who are the least?' because it fails to understand the nature of the question.

I don't want to talk much about this at point but basically the question arises because the parable begins with a character who has authority over everyone else present and splits them into two groups called 'sheep' and 'goats'. The two groups are then judges on what they did or did not do for 'the least of these'.

So the actually question is are the least of these sheep, goats or a mixture of both? They have to be one or the other because there is nothing else.

If they are goats we have a problem because the service done for them appears to have come to nothing, if they are sheep then the sheep seem to be guilty of the crime of looking out only for their own which Jesus criticises as being somewhat unvirtuous earlier in the Gospel. So then they're a mixture of both. That certainly seems plausible especially as when Jesus addresses the sheep He says 'the least of these my brothers' while when addressing the goats He says 'the least of these' no reference to my brothers. However this has the same problems both the above have combined.

Also the article appears to neglect the fact that this teaching Jesus only reveals to His disciples, He doesn't direct it to the wider populace so they might act on it or not by their own choice.

[marie glen]

I don't know if I'm mistaken or not, but I think of this as kind of metaphor for how we react to people and how we go through life (as a follower of Him). Do we love people? Want to be friendly and be a blessing whenever possible or do we have another sort of attitude? If someone needs help, do we give aid, support and encouragement?

I don't think (for myself at least) that it means I must force myself to visit folks in hospitals - but if I have a friend who is ill I should visit, how the Spirit leads, whether in person, by phone, or letter, as the circumstances may call for. (If I were sick the last thing I would want is a bunch of company! :dontknow: But encouraging texts would be nice.) And of course pray for them, visiting them in Spirit?

If we're wealthy.. that would be great! As far as being able to be a blessing to others! We can do what we can do, but I don't think it should be any sort of legalistic obligation.. done in the flesh - one's own flawed nature.. All things led by the Spirit, all have different gifts.

I think it's the heart, and attitude. I think every where we go, we bless or we curse. :Peace2:

[CST]

Thanks, Marie. I sure hope our enforced downtime hasn't killed our conversations.

[jugghead]

For me, the parable of the sheep and the goats has to do with obedience and rebellion ..... and is related to the prodigal sons along with law and grace, they both started out in the same place, but,

the older brother stayed home and was obedient to his father, but then wandered off into rebellion of the grace of his father,
the other wandered off into rebellion of the law but came back to the grace of his father.

Which we can also see in the parable of the wheat and the tares as thoughts of obedience (wheat) and thoughts of rebellion (tares), but this is only one way to view it, there are other ways that these can be seen also.

These are all pictures of the same thing from the bigger picture of mankind with Jews and Gentiles to body and spirit to heart and mind all the way down to the smallest in detail of thoughts and desires; broken down even further to:

thoughts of obedience vs. thoughts of rebellion
AND
desires of obedience vs. desires of rebellion

Once thoughts and desires line up with the Father and the Son through His Spirit, they become one and work together to bring our own heart and mind together to work as one, by this the body and spirit become one working together to bring about the oneness between the Jews and the Gentiles.

my  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

I'm always puzzled by an ET interpretation of this parable.

If you ask a Christian, including ETs, what saves you, the answer will be something like "Believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour".
In other words, be a Christian.

Yeah, the goats preached in His name. I'm sure that's because they are Christians instead of muslims or atheists.

The parable is UR.
Yes the parable mentions correction but it doesn't really mention type and duration.
But the answers are elsewhere.

[marie glen]

I'm always puzzled by an ET interpretation of this parable.

If you ask a Christian, including ETs, what saves you, the answer will be something like "Believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour".
In other words, be a Christian.

Yeah, the goats preached in His name. I'm sure that's because they are Christians instead of muslims or atheists.

The parable is UR.
Yes the parable mentions correction but it doesn't really mention type and duration.
But the answers are elsewhere.

"The parable is U.R." :thumbsup: ..amen, and no where says 'forever'..

..or the type.. :Chinscratch: more and more I lean toward this life judgment/correction (not afterlife except for bitter hot tears on day of judgment) ..But as in last days and "caught unawares", troublous times of tribulations.. Perhaps even caught up in the last great war/conflagration (against Israel in the notorious valley, how's the verse in Isaiah go? "multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision" and isn't that part of the word translated judgment?  :Chinscratch: I probably should look that up..)

    :Peace2:

Thanks, Marie. I sure hope our enforced downtime hasn't killed our conversations.

     :thumbsup: :gsmile:


Amen Jugghead! I often think what glory and how wonderful when all are agreed! Philippians 2:11 - "Every tongue shall wholeheartedly confess Jesus is Lord!" - (taking into account the greek)

[WhiteWings]

"The parable is U.R." :thumbsup: ..amen, and no where says 'forever'..

..or the type.. :Chinscratch: more and more I lean toward this life judgment/correction (not afterlife except for bitter hot tears on day of judgment)

I lean to both.

According to God things may need some extra correction after this life.
So there are bad things before you enter heaven.

But also in heaven not all are equal.
Jesus for example said stuff like "least in heaven" that means there are levels in heaven.
I mean between people. Not the obvious one "God is the highest level"
Just like there always were angels and archangels.

So while heaven is great for all, the behavior earth may have a long lasting effect on your level in heaven. Maybe eternally, maybe you, MG, have to work it off and polish my boots every day for 777,777 years. And be warned, I like walking on farmland  :friendstu:

[CST]

I'm always puzzled by an ET interpretation of this parable.

If you ask a Christian, including ETs, what saves you, the answer will be something like "Believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour".
In other words, be a Christian.

Yeah, the goats preached in His name. I'm sure that's because they are Christians instead of muslims or atheists.

The parable is UR.
Yes the parable mentions correction but it doesn't really mention type and duration.
But the answers are elsewhere.

"The parable is U.R." :thumbsup: ..amen, and no where says 'forever'..

..or the type.. :Chinscratch: more and more I lean toward this life judgment/correction (not afterlife except for bitter hot tears on day of judgment) ..But as in last days and "caught unawares", troublous times of tribulations.. Perhaps even caught up in the last great war/conflagration (against Israel in the notorious valley, how's the verse in Isaiah go? "multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision" and isn't that part of the word translated judgment?  :Chinscratch: I probably should look that up..)

    :Peace2:

Thanks, Marie. I sure hope our enforced downtime hasn't killed our conversations.

     :thumbsup: :gsmile:


Amen Jugghead! I often think what glory and how wonderful when all are agreed! Philippians 2:11 - "Every tongue shall wholeheartedly confess Jesus is Lord!" - (taking into account the greek)

Hmm, you seem to have replied to Jugghead while quoting me there.

[marie glen]

"The parable is U.R." :thumbsup: ..amen, and no where says 'forever'..

..or the type.. :Chinscratch: more and more I lean toward this life judgment/correction (not afterlife except for bitter hot tears on day of judgment)

I lean to both.

According to God things may need some extra correction after this life.
So there are bad things before you enter heaven.

But also in heaven not all are equal.
Jesus for example said stuff like "least in heaven" that means there are levels in heaven.
I mean between people. Not the obvious one "God is the highest level"
Just like there always were angels and archangels.

So while heaven is great for all, the behavior earth may have a long lasting effect on your level in heaven. Maybe eternally, maybe you, MG, have to work it off and polish my boots every day for 777,777 years. And be warned, I like walking on farmland  :friendstu:

Farmland is the best! I think of Judgment 'Day' as being a very traumatic day.. even for those who were chosen (by lot?) to believe during this life, ie, those of the 1st resurrection who live and 'reign' through the Millennium.. I've come to think of it as a great day of the review of all things.. all history. [ :eek: ] With a lot of weeping, gnashing of teeth and even outer darkness.. With the saved serving, helping.. Though in history, there's good things.. And all those families.. Because God does the choosing of when one comes to the faith, and because He is in control, full control of this letting angel and man choices, thus imperfection, run its course, I have to also believe in the 'end' all in the 2nd resurrection will 'catch up' with the very blessed state of the 1st resurrection crowd (too great to number, according to Rev 7)/folks.

I kind of think what God is creating is a giant garden (and farm! but vegetarian..) peopled with the beautiful branches of His own family.. I love how the word "pas"/all, includes "the whole".
:Peace2: :gsmile: God bless!

[marie glen]

Hmm, you seem to have replied to Jugghead while quoting me there.

You're right! I should have put a line between the two like this.. (or maybe I got the quoting all mixed up somehow..)

Thanks, Marie. I sure hope our enforced downtime hasn't killed our conversations.

     :thumbsup: :gsmile:
------------------------------------------------

And Amen Jugghead! I often think what glory and how wonderful when all are agreed! Philippians 2:11 - "Every tongue shall wholeheartedly confess Jesus is Lord!" - (taking into account the greek)
[/quote]
---------------------------------------

P.S. -  I hate those downtimes!

[jugghead]

Hmm, you seem to have replied to Jugghead while quoting me there.

You're right! I should have put a line between the two like this.. (or maybe I got the quoting all mixed up somehow..)

Thanks, Marie. I sure hope our enforced downtime hasn't killed our conversations.

     :thumbsup: :gsmile:
------------------------------------------------

And Amen Jugghead! I often think what glory and how wonderful when all are agreed! Philippians 2:11 - "Every tongue shall wholeheartedly confess Jesus is Lord!" - (taking into account the greek)

---------------------------------------

P.S. -  I hate those downtimes!
[/quote]

I thought that also CST until I realized the emoticons were for your reply

[CST]

Farmland is the best! I think of Judgment 'Day' as being a very traumatic day.. even for those who were chosen (by lot?) to believe during this life,

I don't think anyone was chosen by lot, God is too wise for that. I can understand why you imagine why that might be the case because God shows no favouritism but  I imagine He chooses in His wisdom by examining our characters and determining which it is most appropriate to elect to achieve His purposes. Obviously this is incomprehensible in practice but I suspect it's what He's done.

Oh, and I imagine we all hate the downtimes. We only really discover them when they thwart our attempt to reach the site.

[Dandelion]

I have begun to think that the Lake of Fire or, as it is sometimes referred to as 'the second death' has a lot to do with these verses.

It might be the experience needed if we have not believed when here, on earth, or even if we have believed, but are not quite ready for Heaven. Not that I have a great understanding of just what might occur.....but,I don't think I am necessarily supposed to understand all of the subtleties of the process. I do think it might well be the last step in a sequence of transforming us into Christ-like beings, who will be able to be happy together in Heaven and at peace, because we will have been changed.

Then, death will be swallowed up, and Jesus will rule FOREVER!                       :dsunny:

D.

[WhiteWings]

I have begun to think that the Lake of Fire or, as it is sometimes referred to as 'the second death' has a lot to do with these verses.

Personally I'm sure of that.
The goats go into the LoF.
LoF purges  their impurities (hardend hearts that didn't feed the poor etc)

[jugghead]

I have begun to think that the Lake of Fire or, as it is sometimes referred to as 'the second death' has a lot to do with these verses.

Personally I'm sure of that.
The goats go into the LoF.
LoF purges  their impurities (hardend hearts that didn't feed the poor etc)

I also agree, it is like seeing the sheep as an example of "at peace" and the goats as "in conflict", that the LoF is that which will purge all conflicts in a person so that they can enter into God's rest, His place of peace.

[WhiteWings]

Sheep and goats possibly is a wrong translation.

eriphion
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat

A kid just as well can be a kid sheep. A lamb. Untrained sheep.
Jesus always called His followers sheep and not goats.

Not that it makes a huge difference because even if the correct translation is hamster, the hamsters are facing a bad time.

[GodIsLove]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vk78BMxg5s4

[marie glen]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vk78BMxg5s4

I cheated and watched the end.. lol. And I think we're in agreement.. I think Et, misses the context, that the verses say, that He said, He will separate the sheep and 'goats' at His return.. (it's the same with the wheat and tares). And of course the sheep and goats will be before Him.. as the nations are always before Him.. so to speak. Sometimes I think the scripture is phrased purposely confusing in places, to veil things.. make us work a little to see it.. Like focusing the lens of binoculars or tuning in a radio station..
:gsmile:

[Shev]

I am not sure how this parable can be taken literally in any way. Simply because the qualification is visiting, clothing, feeding, etc. But is there a people who have always done these things, and then another group that has never done them? Surely there should be an overwhelmingly larger middle group of half sheep/half goats who sometimes did these things, and sometimes did not? What if I visited, but then did not feed, but then repented and did feed, but then forgot to visit? Do I get a ticket to heaven or hell?

I am not trying to disrespect the scripture, just show how ludicrous any kind of literal interpretation would be.

[CST]

:) Have long agreed and have written a long article on the subject which I hope to post in future. But this is one of the primary reasons, especially when I was forcibly in an ET camp, I have really hated this parable in the past.