newb with questions

[idontknow]

I am new to religion and recently became a Christian and had a mental breakdown over eternal hell. Then i came across universal reconciliation and i thought it was to good to be true. But the more i read about it the more it seems more likely than an eternal hell so i pray that you guys are right.

[Seth]

Welcome IDK. You are way ahead of most Christians with the admission of "I don't know." There are answers.  :HeartThrob:

[idontknow]

Welcome IDK. You are way ahead of most Christians with the admission of "I don't know." There are answers.  :HeartThrob:

It only took me about 3 months to get there  :thumbsup:

But i seriously hope you guys are right. I quit eating for months and lost a lot of weight and kept having mental breakdowns over eternal torment. I grew up Pentecostal but even as a kid i didn't really believe i just kinda went along with it because my parents did. Then i got older i became a small a atheist. Then on Christmas eve i had demonic sleep paralysis and i came back to God and what i found scared me almost worse than the sleep paralysis. I could not fathom how a God that loved us would send us to hell for eternity. I thought it was reserved for really bad people like murders


Then shortly after i found Jesus (he really did help me). A friend's relative died who was Mormon and i had read that Mormonism is a false religion and people who follow false religion burn in hell for eternity. And this did not help my situation AT ALL and it made me even more miserable and helpless. I found it impossible to love God and the only reason i tried to follow his commandments was to keep myself out of hell. And i started thinking even if i became a perfect model Christian and got to heaven if my friends and family would be there. And i came to the sad realization that many would not due to lack of faith and sinful lifestyle.

I dont want universal reconciliation to be real because i want to sin. I want universal reconciliation to be real to save people who never find Jesus, i was almost one of those people  :sigh:

[Shev]

Hello my friend,

God bless you for your compassionate heart, and take comfort in the fact that your desire for mankind reflects the will of the truly loving God:

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,  6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,  7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.  8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.  9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,  10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,  11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11)

The day shall come for everyone, when they confess the Lordship of Jesus to the Father's glory!

[Psalm91:4]

And just like Jesus helped you, He will help each and every one of His people.  Because He really is the Savior of the whole world. So, fear not! 

Keep studying His word because He promised the truth will set us free. 

I too thought universal reconciliation was too good to be true at first.....but then I considered it`s Jesus we`re talking about here and how that *with God all things are possible....

So anyway....welcome idontknow.  Nice to meet you.  :)

[eaglesway]

The brother who posts, "SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT" has a similar testimony. He had a breakdown related to the conflict within his soul over the doctrine of eternal torment.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/testimonies-(testify-here!)/a-ur-testimony-(a-bit-long-for-whom-it-is-for)/msg182974/#msg182974

This is my testimony of how I came to understand it.

[Tom]

You're suffering understandable confusion due to the false doctrine of orthodox theology that's a remnant of the Roman Empire's religious arm established to control people with fear. It's a horrible lie that you will eventually be glad to be free of when you learn more about the truth of scripture. You're blessed to have been pointed in the right direction. Keep seeking the truth in the inspired written word of God, and you will come to see that God has a plan for all his creatures that is all about love not torture in fire forever. Get yourself an accurate translation to read. I recommend the Concordant Version. http://concordant.org/online/index.html God bless you.

[idontknow]

Thanks for all the replies i have not even read the bible so i have a lot of reading ahead of me.

Several weeks ago after hearing about UR i was wondering if it could really be true and searching for some way to prove it. Then i remembered stories of Near Death Experiences that people have had. So i started watching youtube videos on them and the first few i watched people said they went to heaven including gay people. And i was always under the impression gays went to hell so hearing stories of gay men who went to heaven really made me question ET.

Then i looked for NDE's of hell and i found quite a few. Before watching any of them i had a sinking feeling but i went ahead and watched them anyways. But in every video the person that went to hell eventually seen a light or Jesus and then they were taken out of hell and taken to Heaven before being returned to their body. Some of the NDE's seemed to be of purgatory where there was no torture. It was a bunch of people trapped inside their own sin and it was incredibly lonely. But they were also shown heaven before being returned to their body.

I have not done a lot of research on NED's just old Art Bell shows and youtube videos. In one case a girl fell through a hole in the floor of a cabin. She was taken directly to heaven and was talking to someone and asked them if everyone went to this place when they died. The person told her yes and she asked them "even Hitler?" and the person told her yes even Hitler.

I have tried to talk to Christian friends about UR and told them about the Hitler NDE and they do not believe it at all. One friend asked me if someone raped and killed her in cold blood if i would want them to go to heaven. I honestly could not say yes and i know girls are raped and murdered every day and even worse.

But then i reminded her about how in the bible you are supposed to forgive people. And i recall a Amish school shooting where a crazy guy went into a Amish school and killed a bunch of kids. And when they interviewed the victims families they said they forgave the man for doing what he did only a few days later. But maybe UR is why God wants us to be so forgiving, demons and sin corrupt people and maybe in the end it really can be burnt up in a cleansing fire.

But at the same time it feels really wrong that these truly evil people will get into heaven. That's why I'm not sure if I'm 100% on board with UR.

[eaglesway]

Well, you know what they say- except for the grace of God there go I. Any of us has the capacity of being truly evil. God forgave us not only for our sins, but also for our capacity for sin.

Hitler was incredibly evil, but were the millions of Germans who turned a blind eye to his evil any less evil?

We are all connected to Adam at birth. We only connected to Christ by grace.....so the issue is, who does God not love? and if He loves everyone, whose sin is greater than God's love?

Every human being is guilty of the crucifixion of Christ, until they see His love flowing out of His wounds, and are saved, "by grace, through faith, and that not  of ourselves, it is the gift of God". Peace :o)

[marie glen]

I am new to religion and recently became a Christian and had a mental breakdown over eternal hell. Then i came across universal reconciliation and i thought it was to good to be true. But the more i read about it the more it seems more likely than an eternal hell so i pray that you guys are right.

:hiya: hello! and welcome to tentmaker forums! It's a great place to be! Every scripture which has been translated seeming to support 'hell' is actually quite easily explained.. And soon as you read His Word you will notice more and more support for Universal Reconciliation/Mercy/Redemption. Yes, I think we have very much underestimated God our Father, and His Great Plan of Salvation.. God is Perfect, and perfect makes no mistakes, loses nothing...

It's hard to imagine a joy filled Kingdom of God, if some of our loved ones and friends, and huge numbers of humanity don't make it! Yes, if that were the case, all believers should be utterly terrified and far from living in peace and joy of our salvation and in the looking forward to His coming Kingdom/Governance..

God bless you!! :smile:

But at the same time it feels really wrong that these truly evil people will get into heaven. That's why I'm not sure if I'm 100% on board with UR.

The Bible speaks of two resurrections - I believe those who are dead are in a sleep.. One of the first lies was by satan via the serpent in the garden when he tricked Eve, "surely you won't die..?!" he said, but what God said was "dust you are and to dust shall you return" and the dust of the grave in the Old Testament was always a place where there is "no doing nor knowing"... If we 'went to heaven' or 'hell' at death, sentence would precede judgment..

The first resurrection occurs when Jesus returns, and is of all believers.. Not until a thousand years later, the Bible says, is the 2nd resurrection, of all who never believed and, or, never heard the good news/gospel message.

Initially it won't be as joyful and glorious of a resurrection, for these folks will have "died in their sins" and so they will rise, and will stand before the Holy and Glorious and Pure God still imperfect and still in their sins.. Imagine if you were one who abused others.. it will be glaring when in His Holy Light.. I believe this will be torment and the beginning of repentance. I believe judgment day will be an incredibly long day, and difficult, even for the saved as we review all human history.. (oh dear.)

I don't put much stock in near death experiences, but tend to think of them as occurring in ones own psyche.. I pretty much stick to God's Word, especially of course the New Testament (which I read in the order it's believed written.. and I read one gospel each season, or used to until I blended them into one, in order of events as close as i could get it.)

Most UR folks believe unsaved folks (including rapists and murderers) will go to the "lake of fire" for an age/"aion" for different degrees of psychological torment depending on their crimes.. Not physical torture, I don't think is the belief, but being brought to regret and repentance through realization of the horrors of sin and one's own sins.. (But I tend to believe this occurs on judgment day, and though we all could have perished or gone to the lake of fire (second dying), I believe very few if any actually end up there, after all, after having been resurrected, who's not going to "believe" and be brought to regret and repentance.. And it seems to me that by time the end of judgment day, all will have been written into the Lamb's Book of Life.. Or perhaps some really stubborn hold outs and especially evil ones will be actually tormented.. though I tend to think it's the realization of the horror they were, that will torment them..

God bless!!

[idontknow]

Ok, Another question... Forgive me i have not read the bible i have just read common scripture while looking for things relevant to what i search for online. So forgive me if i come off sounding stupid because i have not actually read the bible (i own a KJV but it reads like a phone book to me and i just cant do it. gonna get a different version some time)

How does UR explain when Jesus died and went to Hades than to "paradise" If we are all sleeping until the resurrection and judgment?   www.gotquestions.org/where-was-Jesus.html

[eaglesway]

Thats one of those things about which little is written and different conclusions have been drawn by people of good conscience. I would not expect you would find a consensus answer on that. There have been many different perspectives on it discussed on the forum in the past and a lot of disagreement about it, and it really has little, if anything to do with the salvation of all.

[Tom]

I had what folks call an NDE or OBE, and I think they're visions that are partly affected by our preconceived religious ideas. But they're like dreams that tell us something even though some folks may have a hard time understanding what that is. That explains why some folks think they've gone to "hell." I think you need to realize that the word "hell" is simply an Old English word used in the KJV to translate the Greek "hades" which literally means "unperceived" or "unseen." It is simply the "unseen" state of dead souls. That's why Christ is said to have been in "hell" for three days. He wasn't being tortured in fire. He was simply "unseen" until he was resurrected by the power of God. The idea that "hell" is torture in fire forever comes to us from the theology of the Roman Empire through the Roman Catholic Church and is some of the doctrine that the Protestant Church failed to purge. It's a lie to control people with irrational fear. So forget about it, and realize that the dead are simply "unseen" until a future time when they will also be resurrected like Christ was. That will happen to believers when Christ meets us in the air and to unbelievers at the consummation of the eons when death will be abolished and God will be all in all.

[tm55]

Welcome idontknow!

The Hitler question was a key stumbling block for me accepting eventual universal salvation too.  Here's an excerpt from an article ... http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-bible-derose.html ... that helped me a lot: 

"Many have e-mailed to warn me of the dangers of believing and promoting [Christian] universalism.  Two closely related dangers have been stressed.  Some focus on how important Christians will think it is to spread the gospel if they accept universalism, and warn that belief in universalism would undercut evangelism.  Others focus on the potential detrimental effect of promoting universalism on potential Christians themselves, supposing many will think something along the lines of, 'Well, I'll be OK anyway, so why bother to accept Christ?'

I do not think that belief in universalism should have the above effects.  Here it is important to note that universalism -- at least the position I've been referring to by the term -- does not imply that it is unimportant whether one accepts Christ in this life, or sooner rather than later.  All that universalism per se rules out here is the 'infinitely big stick': that one will be eternally barred from heaven (and perhaps consigned to hell) if one fails to accept Christ in this life.  As I've stressed, universalism itself does not rule out that there will be punishment for some after death.  Indeed, it does not rule out that there will be a lot of punishment for some.  So it's not only consistent with the existence of sticks, but with very big -- indeed, immensely huge -- sticks, though of course universalists will disagree amongst themselves about the nature and size of whatever sticks there are.  Universalism does rule out the infinitely big stick.  But it would indeed be very sad if Christians believed that there is strong reason or motivation for accepting Christ in this life only if one faces an infinitely big stick if one fails to do so.  Universalism also guarantees that all humans will eventually attain the tremendous carrot.  But does the fact that things will eventually be OK for someone remove the motivation -- for herself and for others -- to improve her lot in the meantime?   Those who believe they are going to heaven, whether they're universalists or not, believe everything will eventually be OK for them, but few lose all interest in their well-being in the meantime.  And those who believe that certain other people (say, loved ones) are destined for heaven don't lose interest in promoting their well-being in the meantime.  Why, then, should accepting that everyone will eventually be OK sap all motivation for promoting their well-being in the meantime -- especially since it's at least consistent with universalism that that 'meantime' can be a very long time?

It's also worth pointing out that though the universalist believes all will attain heaven, it's consistent with universalism that what one's heavenly existence is like may depend on one's earthly life.  Thus the universalist may hold (though perhaps some will not) that how one lives one's earthly life -- perhaps crucially including whether one accepts Christ in this life -- will have eternal significance, even if it doesn't determine whether one (eventually at least) attains heaven."

I suspect that the Lake of Fire refining process will involve some pain (probably in proportion to one's sin), but will be for the ultimately loving purpose of making one fit for heaven.

I hope the article helps.

[Tom]

I don't think about "sticks" and "carrots" because I think faith is a gift from God, and some are chosen to have it while others are not. I don't think anything you do earns you salvation. Faith is belief that you either have or don't depending on whether God gives it to you or not, not on whether you accept it, and those who have it were chosen before the disruption of the world.

"Faith," from the Greek "pistis," literally "belief," the noun for "believe," "is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed" (Hebrews 11:1)

"He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world" (Ephesians 1:4)

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Universal reconciliation is simply the concept of what is written in scripture in Colossians 1:20 where it says that all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross. All on earth and in the heavens is the whole universe which is why it's called universal reconciliation. People who warn you about believing it are ignoring the truth of scripture and promoting the deception of orthodox theology that's a remnant of the religious arm of the Roman Empire used to control people with irrational fear. What do you think orthodoxy was trying to hide when it tortured and killed people just for reading scripture? Scripture was not suppressed by killing people with fire, but forgery was committed in the translation of scripture deceiving people with fear of torture in fire forever. The common misconception of "hell" is a lie. The word "hell" is an Old English word used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unperceived" or "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls. "Gehenna" is confused with "hell" by intentional mistranslation twelve times in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version and the King James Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29 & 30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15 & 33; Mark 9:43,45 & 47; Luke 12:5 & James 3:6. "Gehenna," the ravine of Hinnom southwest of Jerusalem, was used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god. "Gehenna" was later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon. Christ referred to Isaiah's prophecy when he spoke of "Gehenna."

"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh" (Isaiah 66:23 & 24).

"The lake of fire" is obviously not "hell" because "hell" will be cast into "the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14-King James Version). Even the adulterated versions of scripture say God is the savior of all mankind who will reconcile all through Christ so that God may be all in all.

"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10).

"Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20).

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

[marie glen]

Ok, Another question... Forgive me i have not read the bible i have just read common scripture while looking for things relevant to what i search for online. So forgive me if i come off sounding stupid because i have not actually read the bible (i own a KJV but it reads like a phone book to me and i just cant do it. gonna get a different version some time)

How does UR explain when Jesus died and went to Hades than to "paradise" If we are all sleeping until the resurrection and judgment?   www.gotquestions.org/where-was-Jesus.html

hi! the Greeks thought "hades" the "place of the dead" was an after life ("dust thou art") but I'm thinking the place of the dead and also the "lower place of the earth" where "Jesus descended" is still simply the grave..

from 1 Peter 3:18-20 - "by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared" is usually thought to mean Jesus while in the grave went and preached to those who perished at the flood, but I believe it simply says.. via the Spirit, while the ark was being built, Jesus preached to those who would no get on the boat..

In the Old Testament it was sheol, even now translated often as "hell" but sheol of course, was only "the grave" where "all meet" and Jacob? (I think it was) asked the LORD to "hide him in sheol" and is where "there is neither doing nor knowing" - the grave.

But later comes the Greek and the hellenized world whose belief from long ago was an after life and place(s) of.. "crept in unawares"... All translations of "hell" are easily explained.. gehenna was the city dump where criminal's bodies were burned "better you throw your hand there than you harm" (molest) "one of these and your whole body end up there.." Jesus said.. Most others are "hades"="place of the dead" - still the grave..

"voice of those under the altar" in Revelation, is like the "blood of Abel" in Genesis.. The body being "asleep" but the 'soul' being in a sort of holding cell, seems to me a bit messy.. disorganized, illogical, and not really supported by scripture..

As far as I remember, the scriptures do not say Jesus 'went to the heavens' until after His ascension, forty days after His resurrection..
         :smile:

[marie glen]

You quoted some great verses Tom!

This is what so many miss -
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class:

(or order) #1 -

the Firstfruit, Christ;

#2 -

thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; (return)

and the missed one - #3 -

thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father,

..whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death.

("He must reign until all things are under His feet")

For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him,

that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

:banana: :dsunny: :cloud9: :banana:

[Lazarus Short]

 :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: