My story

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew and I'm thirty-five years old. And I'm still not sure what exactly is the truth. It's like the movie the matrix where nothing is as it seems. ET is what I have believed for most of my Christian life. But it didn't make sense to me why God would have created a world that was capable of falling leading most people to live forever in hell. But preachers believed this way, and they were doing miracles, speaking in tongues, and having experiences in which God showed them his love. So I figured that it must be true, all of these people on you-tube preaching that almost everybody is going to hell. People having dreams of going to hell, locked up in a cell, all is not well. Well I do believe in hell but I believe that you can get out. Those who believe that ET is a satanic doctrine should look into the new age to see what Satan has taught them. The teaching is that there is no hell. Satan pretends to be God in many books and repeatedly says that there is no hell. ET might not be the total truth but its message is clear, hell is real and its something you need to fear             

[Shev]

Welcome Andrew! I hope you find answers here, brother.

I would be interested to know the nature of the hell you believe in? Is it Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus as one conglomerated place? Or all four as distinct? I am always interested to hear how hell is defined in English, because of it being itself an English word translating so many different Greek and Hebrew words. For instance, only Jesus and James (speaking to Hebrews who knew of the Valley of Hinnom) ever mention the fiery "Gehenna", with Paul not seeming fit to ever write of it to the Gentiles. Whereas some equate Sheol and Hades as similar, with Hades perhaps as a Greek attempt at approximating the Hebrew Sheol, which can sometimes be used synonymously with "the grave", or the abode of the dead.

I say all the above not to waffle, or to be glib, but rather to get at how you define hell. One of the ironies of how zealous ET believers are for hell, is how differently and confusingly it is defined. If it is Gehenna, why is it never mentioned to Gentiles? If, rather, Gehenna is a parable, where does that leave us with Sheol, Hades and the once mentioned Tartarus?

Further than that, is "hellfire" literal? And if so, how can literal fire do anything other than burn the literal body? But if it is figurative, how can it then be spoken of as a literal place? And if it is figurative, how does it differ from the fiery judgment believers suffer in 1 Corinthians 3:9-15, yet without losing their salvation?

So I would summarize it by saying, if you are warning an unbeliever of where they are going, which place would it be? All four as one? All four in turn? Only one of the four?

I believe with all my heart that there is real, often severe, judgment, but that it needs to be scripturally defined and understood, and that the traditions of men, including those that came from dubious or misleading translation choices, need to be disregarded where they conflict with the Spirit and the scriptures. We also need to believe that "when the judgments of God are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness".

God bless you in Christ, as you seek the truth, Andrew!

[Dandelion]

Hi Andrew!

You are about my son's age.

I just want to say, keep praying to see and know the truth; keep an open mind; keep reading the scriptures, and try to do so without the weight of what you have already learned. Ask the Holy Spirit to explain passages and concepts to you. He does an amazing job!

I will include you in my prayers, today.

D.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Shev and Dandelion

My name is Andrew and I'm thirty-five years old. And I'm still not sure what exactly is the truth. It's like the movie the matrix where nothing is as it seems. ET is what I have believed for most of my Christian life. But it didn't make sense to me why God would have created a world that was capable of falling leading most people to live forever in hell. But preachers believed this way, and they were doing miracles, speaking in tongues, and having experiences in which God showed them his love. So I figured that it must be true, all of these people on you-tube preaching that almost everybody is going to hell. People having dreams of going to hell, locked up in a cell, all is not well. Well I do believe in hell but I believe that you can get out. Those who believe that ET is a satanic doctrine should look into the new age to see what Satan has taught them. The teaching is that there is no hell. Satan pretends to be God in many books and repeatedly says that there is no hell. ET might not be the total truth but its message is clear, hell is real and its something you need to fear             

I definitely agree that we should not be preaching to others that ppl will get off scot free who do terrible evil deeds! History is full of heartbreaking oppressions and abuses.. On judgment 'day' (when the queen of the south will rise up with" words against the pharisees of Jesus' day...) what would their many victims feel if the horrible abusers of them and their loved ones were to simply rise to rainbows, butterflies and flowers.. (though of course victims will come to forgive.. and even love.. for God will one day be "all in all").

"it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.." ...Even though I think the heavenly fire is the purifying Spirit of God.. and lean toward thinking, that over the course of judgment 'day' all will come to repentance and reconciliation, with by end of that 'day' if any remain not "believing" - not written in the book of life, they will go to the "aionion" lake of fire (aionion being the root of our word eon). But I sort of lean toward thinking by end of that 'day' all will believe.. but worst case scenario, if not, it's to the purifying fire of the lake of fire for the death of all impurity and selfishness..
    :dontknow: we are certainly unclear of all the particulars.. but He is perfect - "be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect" - therefor the 'end' result cannot be anything less than the utter best one possible. For perfect makes no mistakes, and can lose nothing..
     :Peace2: God bless!

p.s. - a lot of fiery judgment I believe is earthly, like the gathering of tares to be burned, I equate to the gathering to armageddon which folks will allow theirselves to be gathered to (the grapes of wrath of REv 14)

[Andrew]

Thank you Dandelion, Shev and Marie Glen for your replies

Shev, You make some very good points.

"So I would summarize it by saying, if you are warning an unbeliever of where they are going, which place would it be? All four as one? All four in turn? Only one of the four?"

I have only recently began to look into the translation controversy, and I can honestly say that I'm not sure. I'm not sure I'll be able to ever answer that. My reasoning for a hell comes from two places. The first is the amount of hell dreams christians have had that I have found on you-tube and in books. If these were just unconscious created dreams, then they wouldn't be able to similiate the levels of pain people are reporting. For in a dream, I'm sure you've noticed that pain is only a fraction of what it would be in the real world. Then you could say they are lying - you might have a motive for money for ones selling the books but not in the ones posting the videos (at least not in all cases). So if these "dreams" are equal to real life then what is the source that is creating them. Is it God or the Devil? In the book "Heaven is so real" the author is taken on a tour of hell. While she is there she sees her parents who had died burning in hell. Jesus even sheds a tear at the scene  as he loved them but he couldn't save them because they didn't know the truth. The author over the next few months or so goes on a mission and gets everyone of her family members saved. So I would suggest that this vision (it's really more than a vision because it lasts for weeks and she is actually transported to the heavenly realm) is from God because of the fruit it produced.

My second reason for believing in hell, although now it is in one which you eventaully get out is that for several years I was decieved into writing poems that had a flow which was given to men - now this is a little hard to explain but it was a way in which I could know that when a line was finished it was from God (except it was the devil). I eventaully figured out that I was decieved and I repented and rededicated my life to Jesus. That night I was given a new flow, and for the past year and a half I've been writing poems with what appears to be from a new source. The poems I write are already written in another dimension I just figure out what they are by trying different combinations until they match the God flow. Now I can no longer read my old poems (that i wote when I was decieved) and sound them out because the old flow is not in me no more.

I still struggle with the fact what if I'm decieved again. But when I look at it logically I did everything your supposed to do - I repented, rededicated my life to Jesus and the old flow was destroyed and a new one born. The only thing I could think of is that maye the new flow is a test or something to see how i will respond.

Now my poems suggest that hell is real and that only the perfect (pure in heart) make it to heaven - those that truly try to live a life in which Christ would approve. But that after a while those who are in hell are let out. It could be a thousand years like one of my poems suggested. Now the question comes up is it God or the Devil who first created the poems. If US is the truth and there is no hell, perhaps the devil would promote ET. But a temporary hell doesn't serve Satan from what I can fathom                           

So why isn't hell in the original languages of the bible? God must have known that it was going to be changed by the Catholic church and the majority of beleivers would end up being ET believers. Perhaps God allowed it to play out this way so that the majority of the people who read the bible would read about hell and that would serve his purpose.  It's like the realtioship between a child and parent. Does the child do good and avoid breaking the rules because he has so much love for the parent or does he do good and stay out of trouble because he doesn't want to be punished? Revelation isn't all given at once, and there are many purpose being served. Hell is a new revelation that wasn't found in the hebrew or greek. 

note: I should be posting my spoken word poems on you-tube soon

Andrew

[Shev]

Thank you for your thoughtful answer Andrew!

In respect to the hell dreams, it is hard for me to give spiritual weight to dreams. I don't accuse anyone of lying about them, but rather the significance of the dreams themselves. I think it perfectly feasible people that believe in hell can dream about hell. It does not make it a scriptural argument about the nature of judgment - and again, I must say that I very much believe in the reality of divine judgment, just not the false concepts concerning judgment that have been formulated through the traditions of men.

As far as the flow of your poems, that sounds like something that is personal to you, and difficult to consider in a wider context for people other than yourself. One thing I will say, is that any strong argument for the traditional view of hellfire should be able to be presented coherently directly from the scriptures themselves. Dreams and poems have enough inherent subjectivity to make a debate about their merits very tenuous.

As far as your question, I do believe judgment is throughout the Bible, just not the traditional concept of hell. With regards to your theory, I do think God knew full well how translation errors, interpretations and traditions of men would affect the reception of His Word, and all of these effects dovetail into His overall plan. I believe the reality of hell is tied symbolically to the Valley of Hinnom from which it derived, which became a place where Israelites sacrificed to false God's outside of the city, before it was eventually desecrated by Josiah. In the same manner, I believe the traditional view derived from Gehenna, causes believers to sacrifice to a false image of God, and this symbolic place will be desecrated by Jesus Christ in the fullness of time.

I hope your time on these boards is fruitful, brother. I appreciate your honest and thoughtful posts!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Welcome Andrew. I'm sure you'll enjoy your time on here feasting. Blessings... :dsunny: